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Where We Agree With Daily Kos

First and foremost, we agree that we must all come together and wholeheartedly support and work hard for the Democratic nominee for President as well as all the Democratic candidates for elective office.

Second, we agree with this statement:

It's clear this mess of a nomination process the Democrats devised is in desperate need of a top-bottom overhaul.

Comments closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    Too late (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:42:46 PM EST
    Patriots fans said "sure the tuck rule sucks, we'll change it after we get done gloating."

    It's too late.

    You got me there (none / 0) (#8)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:52:57 PM EST
    As a political statement I hate it, but as a pats fan, well.... lets just say we can be blinded by our sports love here in Boston.

    [ Parent ]
    Obviously (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:56:21 PM EST
    If the objective here is to get everyone back on the same team, a consensus that the roolz are lame in and of itself, is going to remain incredibly insufficient.

    If that wasn't the objective, then at least I had fun with my strawman.


    [ Parent ]

    the objective (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:01 PM EST
    is to figure out how the person who is winning the pop vote and the SD's are swinging to Obama. I can find almost no reason for an SD to commit to Obama based on pop vote and momentum. As an Obama supporter, my vote is my vote, as an SD their vote is the collective, no? So why would any SD commit to Obama right now?

    [ Parent ]
    M-O-N-E-Y (none / 0) (#196)
    by hookfan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:19:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    funny (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:44:10 PM EST
    i was actually coming here hoping there was an open thread to have this very discussion. On one side they are following the rules, they are following the rules on the other side as well. The votes need to be counted and the party needs to commit to its voters that the system will be changed and fixed by late 2009. It is really embarassing to be a demo these days

    Same as it ever was N/T (none / 0) (#210)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:28:42 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I really, really, really, want to make an effort (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by vicndabx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:47:12 PM EST
    but, I have serious concerns about our prospects afterwards if we end up w/a Bush-type, no clue prez who can't pick up the ball and run with it.

    Heh. (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:47:34 PM EST
    You are a devil, BTD - you showed me that I partially agree with teh Great Orange Satan!

    Actually, I totally agree. But as for unifying and supporting the Democratic nominee, I just need the Obama supporters, the Obama campaign, and Obama himself...to go first.

    I'll be right behind them. ;-)

    This reminds me of michelle obama saying (5.00 / 10) (#19)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:23 PM EST
    nice things to Hillary that she probably doesn't mean.  obama is once again trying to game the system thru surrogates.  Believe me if Kos didn't know, at some level, obama cannot win the GE, he wouldn't be playing nicey nice. Too much water under that bridge.

    [ Parent ]
    I do get the feeling... (4.75 / 4) (#7)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:52:21 PM EST
    ... that Obama wants (or, at the very least, knows he needs) the support of the other half of the party. As opposed to the Kossacks, who only want it's surrender.

    At any rate, I do share the sentiment for overhauling the whole process, preferably in the direction of an all-primary system with a lesser degree of proporionality, and of course, no superdelegates.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm all in favor (5.00 / 5) (#15)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:57:45 PM EST
    of massive primary reform. In fact, what I want is so massive that I doubt it will ever happen. (Such is life as a lefty.)

    As for Obama himself, I believe he is coming to the belated realization that he needs HRC's voters after all.

    Whether he will actually begin reaching out to us in some meaningful way at this point, well...I guess we'll see.

    I'm not holding my breath.

    [ Parent ]

    "massive primary reform" (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:05 PM EST
    for some reason I think that is about as likely as the George W. Bush Institute for Research and Development of Alternative Fuels

    [ Parent ]
    I Agree (5.00 / 6) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:26:42 PM EST
    That reform is necessary I, also, agree that the Dems will talk about reform and then kick the can down the road just like everything else.

    I have no plans to visit DKos again because as far as I'm concerned they lost all credibility months ago. Why visit a site when you have absolutely no trust in what they write.

    As far as uniting behind Obama, the best I can say is "We'll see."

    [ Parent ]

    I am in the same place (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:28:24 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I'm glad I found you here. (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:40:27 PM EST
    I never left Daily Kos, but backed away a bit at times.  I found it a bit overwhelming at times, and not in a good way.  And I said so and was attacked for it.

    But it seems ot be geting a little better, form my perspective.  Noentheless, I respect your position.

    Talk Left seems to have a growing progressive populist movement.  Building that is important.  You always were a good voice for left issues.  I'm glad you still are involved.

    I rarely read front pagers at Dkos.  Inside diaries are more fun.

    [ Parent ]

    Hey Tom Glad You're Here (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:48:33 PM EST
    Have missed some of the people from Dkos but a lot of my favorites like you have started coming here. I much prefer the level of discussion here and this is probably where I'll stay.

    [ Parent ]
    don't give away our secret location though TomP (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:48:35 PM EST
    let them think Hillary44 is their competition. We are here for a little respite from their "reality"

    [ Parent ]
    LOL!! (none / 0) (#141)
    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:53:11 PM EST
    I promise.  

    :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Whoops , replied to myself. (none / 0) (#147)
    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:54:43 PM EST
    :-)

    Anyway, I loved your comment.  Your secret location si safe with me.  :-)

    [ Parent ]

    was there ever more need (5.00 / 11) (#109)
    by Kathy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:39:21 PM EST
    for voting reform than after 2000?  And did we get it?  No.  We got Diebold, even more open to fraud and tampering.

    They won't reform the system in any meaningful way.

    As for these calls to unify the party--excuse me, but aren't you  from the site that, last time I checked, still allowed folks to call my candidate a stupid c-word, a b-word, and every other word out there to denigrate her?  Didn't you say I was a racist hillbilly, or an hysterical, elderly woman, for supporting my candidate?  I should forget that because you tell me it's time to come together?  You don't get to make those sorts of calls and I am not that stupid.  Right up there with "I'm sorry I beat you, baby."

    Jeralyn and BTD saying it is one thing.  They certainly have the high road.  Others, not so much.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah (none / 0) (#148)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:55:24 PM EST
    The racist speak was only last night.

    [ Parent ]
    Was that before or after... (none / 0) (#82)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:28:32 PM EST
    he fired those researchers only to be forced to rehire them cause it hit the news right after the SOTU speech?

    [ Parent ]
    He should have thought of that... (5.00 / 17) (#36)
    by dianem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:13 PM EST
    ...when he was calling Clinton a lying, arrogant person who was desperatly throwing "everything but the kitchen sink" at him. Or, better yet, when he chose to not defend the Clinton's and their supporter's as cheating racists.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep, DK somehow missed that the message (5.00 / 4) (#134)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:51:04 PM EST
    was supposed to be hope and unity.  All I saw over there was hate and misogyny.  In fact I am still mystified how Obama-love generated so much vitriol toward others.

    [ Parent ]
    Or (5.00 / 7) (#160)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:03 PM EST
    when he made a huge deal about the "darkening of Obama's face in the Clinton ad," or when he let his people claim the WVWV was voter suppressing -- for Clinton, or when they made the huge deal about the fake Mickey Kantor video without even verifying if it was real, or, or, or, the list just keeps going on.

    The KOS folks are like my spoiled nephew.  He is a total a*shole to everyone...until he needs something, then he's as sweet as can be.

    Well, sorry, no dice.

    [ Parent ]

    The 'darkening photo' post (5.00 / 2) (#220)
    by suki on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:43:51 PM EST
    was when I knew it was over for me there.
    I was appalled - a complete credibility ender.

    [ Parent ]
    Sweet surrender.. (5.00 / 4) (#102)
    by Rainsong on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:35:34 PM EST
    "Surrender" will happen with some, they will come home again no matter what he does, or doesn't, do or say. But will they be enough? I don't know.

    I'm genuinely sorry BTD for your sake, (but not for Obama's, and certainly not the Party's sake), I wish I could make the effort.

    Over-hauling the all-primary system for the future might be a nice idea, but its too late for this year.  It was still a back-room Party deal, and any system can be gamed by back-room Party deals.

    I used to think Hillary was too loyal to ever take it to the Convention, but now I think its the best idea for it to be thrashed out once and for all.
    I would like to see the power-struggle play out by ALL the rules, including the one that says the Convention is the place to resolve conflict.

    I also want to see which way some of the down-ticket Dems feel, so I can make a more informed decision on down-ticket races.

    [ Parent ]

    No doubt some humility is in order (none / 0) (#80)
    by vicndabx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:50 PM EST
    Going back to earlier sentiments, IMHO, the first step is agreeing that the primaries should be viewed thru the prism of politics.  Next step is agreeing on our course from that point forward.  To me, it's a now or (maybe) later choice.  Go w/the coalition forged by Hillary that closely resembles the one that was last successful.  Don't deny it, it was - (snark w/a little truth to it) the original "first black president," Mr. Bill, and force as much as we can get thru w/o compromise and yield where necessary.  Or, take a chance now, hope the new guy will do the do, and force as much as we can get thru w/o compromise and yield where necessary.  My two cents, we're gonna have to yield a little more than we may want to, because one, the groundwork for yielding has already been laid, and two (don't hate on me, I'm black,) the reality is there's gonna be a lotta second-guessing IF Obama actually becomes president.  See MSM coverage (refer to knowledge gained in first step.)  If O's supporters can acknowledge the risk, their behavior, we can talk about what we do afterwards as adults.

    [ Parent ]
    the groundwork for yielding has already been laid (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:41 PM EST
    this is where he wasted our chances.

    This should have been a whole progressive in your face FDR (like Clinton on O'lielly) progressive Dem election...why did he run that bipartisan schtick?

    Why lay the groundwork for yielding to Republicans  if he wasn't run as a puppet candidate. There was NO reason to talk like that. Nobody believes in that Purple stuff.

    [ Parent ]

    I hear ya (see me as I half-yak,) and agree. (none / 0) (#181)
    by vicndabx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:08:42 PM EST
    but we gotta approach this from reality.  Neither Dems nor Reps have a plurality, we're screwed until WE get a little more.  How do we get there?

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#230)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:00:04 PM EST
    We get there by arguing that the Democratic agenda is right for America and that we haven't gotten all these good things because of Republican obstruction.

    We don't get there by blaming "partisanship," as if both sides are to blame, and suggesting that the parties will magically come together to fix everything that's broken.  Because then when it doesn't happen, it's not the other party's fault for obstructing the process, it's your fault for not delivering on the promised unity.

    It's called the politics of contrast.  BTD and I are two of its biggest proponents.

    [ Parent ]

    I wholeheartedly agree. (none / 0) (#240)
    by vicndabx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:34:35 PM EST
    We as a party got to get w/the program.  At some point Dems are gonna have to take a stand w/an agenda and force the county to make a g*ddam* decision.  I don't care if it's a 51/49 decision, but we have to give the ideals a chance in the context of the political climate, whatever that may be.  We keep losing cuz we don't put it out there definitively.  We all should be clear on the things we feel our pols are able to flake on, so we can be clear on those things they should be firm on.  Give em some wiggle room, but not the whole g*ddam* building.  If not, what the h*ll's the point?  and no, i don't watch the hills.

    [ Parent ]
    is this a prelude to the rumor that Obama is in (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by athyrio on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:51:17 PM EST
    the process of taking over the DNC with his own team of supporters?? I sure hope not...

    Would you be talkin' about this (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by nycstray on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:05:03 PM EST
    rumor that sounds like more than a rumor?

    [ Parent ]
    We could (5.00 / 1) (#243)
    by samanthasmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:49:29 PM EST
    end up going nationwide with Chicago-style politics. All of the Emily's lists in the world wouldn't get a woman in office unless the back room says she can run. I don't have any confidence that the "Obama Party" would be friendly to women candidates.

    [ Parent ]
    How Does One Take Over The DNC? (none / 0) (#57)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:19:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Get your people on it (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:30:59 PM EST
    in key positions so they decide which lower level candidates to bring up through the ranks with money and support.  Can't get anywhere without it.

    Buy the DNC with money and donor lists and control the money,money,money....

    [ Parent ]

    aaah...money! Thanks for the info...But, I am (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:06:37 PM EST
    not sure even money can help the DNC right now....
    too many disillusioned people.

    [ Parent ]
    It's a 4-stage process (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by wurman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:40:46 PM EST
    First, the nominee (you may have seen that word in years past; it means the person selected by the convention to campaign for president as per the Democratic Party) selects a new party chairman.

    Second, the nominee (see above) helps select a group of financial people that represent both the on-going funding of the DNC & the developing funding for the candidate's campaign.

    Third, the nominee (above) works with the 50 state Democratic Party Chairs to coordinate the nat'l, state & local operations.

    Fourth, all of the above meet with the grandees, poobahs & factotums of the Senate & Congressional campaign committees to coordinate activities.

    As you can quickly see, Sen. Obama will have some difficulties making any of this function smoothly because approximately 50 percent of those folks may "have issues."  Nice touch, hunh?

    Run Unity Pony, run.  I say slap some wings on that equine, screw in a shiny aluminum horn & call it the Unity Unicorn--just about as likely.

    [ Parent ]

    If You Are Slapping On Wings, Then You Can (none / 0) (#163)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:18 PM EST
    the unity of icarus.  :)

    Thanks for the info...sounds like a bunch 'o work; and if I was obama, I would keep my powder dry on that one.

    [ Parent ]

    Let's fight, let's insult, let's (5.00 / 18) (#6)
    by zfran on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:51:48 PM EST
    disrespect, let's ignore, let's play dirty, let's disenfranchise voters and on and on...then, let's all join hands for the "common good" and all be one blob of dems voting for dems, devoted to dem causes and blah, blah, blah.I've heard it all before, done it, lived it, voted while holding my nose, thought nothing this year could derail getting a dem in the white house, until.....I don't want to play that game anymore. I've said it before, don't insult me and then want my vote..I'd rather not.

    I'm sure there are some on the other side (2.00 / 1) (#99)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:34:51 PM EST
    Who would say the exact same things.

    But I'll be honest, however it goes down... I'll be voting for the Democratic nominee in November without any reservations.

    Why vote for somebody who shares 5% of the ideals as your candidate when you have the option to vote for somebody who shares 95% of the same ideals.

    We have two wonderful candidates- their policy positions are so similar that if you took the brain of one out and put it in the other, I'd probably have trouble telling them apart.

    [ Parent ]

    Again, this is not about that "my candidate (5.00 / 5) (#106)
    by zfran on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:38:04 PM EST
    won or lost the nomination" This goes longer and deeper and as personal as it gets to some of us. I am not a disillusioned voter, I am very informed one and very angry. Insult me, then vote for me. NOT!

    [ Parent ]
    They still (5.00 / 5) (#132)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:50:14 PM EST
    have some kind of cluelessness about all this don't they? This has nothing to do with Hillary and everything to do with Obama. Obama is the problem not any attachment to Hillary. You know what? If they nominated Biden tomorrow I would be happy as a clam, or Gore or lots of other Dems.

    [ Parent ]
    What's really weird is that (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:55:33 PM EST
    Obama was not their first choice.  They were Edwards guys over there.  That's why it really threw me for a loop that they became so hostile toward Clinton supporters.  We had two candidates remaining and had to choose between them.  Why was one choice so vilified and the other deified?  It was bizarre.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not so sure (none / 0) (#187)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:13:09 PM EST
    I'll be completely honest: I know some on the other side who would claim the exact opposite.  But there are also lots of people on both sides who also would not be happy if they nominated anybody else.

    I honestly don't have a problem with either candidate.  They are both great candidates, and in my opinion it is really just unfortunate that they both had to come along at the same time.

    [ Parent ]

    Party divisions (2.00 / 1) (#151)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:56:38 PM EST
    The more I hear statements like this, the less I can believe that it isn't because somebody's candidate is going to win or lose the nomination.

    My horse left the race months ago, so I've had to listen to both sides as I wait until November to cast my vote.  I still don't understand where this whole "insult me" rhetoric comes from.  Neither candidate has done any insulting as far as I've interpreted things.  The closest you can come is by taking horribly out of context a few words one or the other has said- but that really isn't doing anybody justice.

    The only insults I see come from the media or fanatical supporters on either side, neither of which carries much weight with me.

    Nothing I have seen convinces me that either Clinton or Obama would have the anything but the utmost respect for me even if I choose to vote for their opponent.

    [ Parent ]

    Is this the best you can do? (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Mari on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:20:28 PM EST
    The bewildered innocent act doesn't work anymore. Obama supporters really need to be more imaginative.

    [ Parent ]
    Lack of respect (none / 0) (#219)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:43:10 PM EST
    If you are going to try to insult me in order to disregard anything I have to say, it is going to be difficult to have a reasonable discussion.

    I would certainly love to discuss any areas in which you disagree with me, but if you don't have any issues to raise then I don't believe your post has much value.

    Personally insulting me is a very poor way of trying to discredit my ideas. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    [ Parent ]

    I Wouldn't....one is a race-baiter, the other (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:03:30 PM EST
    isn't.  One is concerned for ALL voters, the other is not.  One actually knows policies, the other doesn't.  One actually cares about America, the other...iffy at best.  So, no offense, but I cannot buy into that argument.

    [ Parent ]
    I would dispute (none / 0) (#180)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:08:24 PM EST
    Everything that you listed there.

    If you want to pick one of those issues in particular to discuss further, I would be happy to.

    [ Parent ]

    Beware....The Blob...It Will Suck You In (none / 0) (#25)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:02:46 PM EST
    and there is no way out.

    [ Parent ]
    I am (5.00 / 19) (#9)
    by sas on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:53:33 PM EST
    not interested in 'coming together'.

    I believe Obama is a demagogue. I think he is a narcissist who, without any resume to speak of, actually believes he is qualified for the job.  I see a cult of personality surrounding him, with his supporters believing he can do no wrong.

    Sorry, I believe he is George W Bush, an arrogant no-nothing, with a D beside his name.

    Further, I will not forgive his sexist, racist campaign, and I sure as hell am not voting for him.  

    Not now , not ever...


    Im taking my ball (1.83 / 6) (#16)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:59:41 PM EST
    and jacks home so none of you can play, if you dont support Hillary.

    Mr. McCain understands.

    [ Parent ]

    Good for McCain! (5.00 / 11) (#24)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:02:08 PM EST
    Now if we could only get someone on the Dem side to understand.

    [ Parent ]
    Do (5.00 / 12) (#34)
    by sas on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:08:42 PM EST
    whatever you want in regard to voting , Dondee - I will.  That's our choice.

    Oh yeah and about my jacks and ball - yes I'm taking them home.

    Damn right I am.

    Barack is still a Gawd-awful candidate....so I'm not voting for him.

    I don't kiss and make-up with abusers.  

    Get your own jacks.

    [ Parent ]

    Speaking of jacks... (5.00 / 4) (#137)
    by magisterludi on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:52:15 PM EST
    it's gonna be harder for Obama to get the Jills, too.

    [ Parent ]
    And (1.66 / 6) (#58)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:20:15 PM EST
    what exactly was so good about the last 8 years that you're willing to risk more of it.

    My suggestion is to get over the entitled, middle class, temper tantrum and try to look at the bigger picture concerning the future of the U.S and it's place in the world.

    [ Parent ]

    Hey we survived the lst 8 years (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:21:44 PM EST
    We can survive 4 more with McCain and the Dems in Congress.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:26:24 PM EST
    you did. And of course that's all that matters.

    [ Parent ]
    I havnt seen (1.00 / 3) (#88)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:29:54 PM EST
    this many self-sabotaging tantrums since they closed the mall and all the computers around town crashed.

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:45:27 PM EST
    I am not taking a tantrum.  I am calm and reserved, and I have had to think this out over the last few months using reason and logic.

    Obama is bad for the country.

    We've already had a president who got on the job training.  We can't afford another.

    [ Parent ]

    Please Find A Dictionary And Look Up The Word (none / 0) (#154)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:57:48 PM EST
    counterproductive. It might provide you with some necessary insight.

    [ Parent ]
    Speak for yourself (none / 0) (#63)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:23:19 PM EST
    There are plenty of soldiers who did not survive the last 8 years.

    [ Parent ]
    You think (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:29:02 PM EST
    soldiers will survive under Obama?

    Right.

    [ Parent ]

    Hillary is the better candidate (5.00 / 4) (#66)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:24:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    She may be (1.00 / 1) (#100)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:35:14 PM EST
    but is that a reason to empower the homicidal lunatics and theives and end-timers that are calling the shots now?

    [ Parent ]
    Who are you talking about?! (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by nycstray on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:39:04 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It's the new politics (5.00 / 5) (#139)
    by standingup on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:52:26 PM EST
    We are to break with the old politics of fear that uses 9/11 to get our votes by new politics of fear of John McCain to get our vote.

    [ Parent ]
    It's sadly true... (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by magisterludi on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:22:16 PM EST
    McCain is the new "9/11! 9/11!".

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, it has stunk like a skunk. (5.00 / 10) (#68)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:05 PM EST
    A inexperienced politician of scant record and a big bankroll, who relied on his many, mysterious, unaccountable advisors to create and implement policies and managed to skate along for six years because his own party refused to investigate anything or exercise any kind of oversight.

    Noperooni.  Do not wanna do that again.  

    [ Parent ]

    entitled middle class temper tantrum? (5.00 / 7) (#72)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:55 PM EST
    the unity ponies are here!

    Oh, and last I checked, it was the entitled middle class that's voting for Obama anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    Hah! (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:44:45 PM EST
    That's how they'll change our minds, insult us enough, and we'll vote for anybody.

    [ Parent ]
    you expect over 17 million people (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by nycstray on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:17 PM EST
    to get over it? You suggest it so nicely, I'm sure it's gonna work wonders . . .

    [ Parent ]
    "entitled, middle class, temper tantrum" (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:38:56 PM EST
    god
    project much?


    [ Parent ]
    your candidate and his supporters (none / 0) (#113)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:41:14 PM EST
    could stop telling us we are not wanted. you could have michelle stop saying america is mean blah, blah blah. you know there are so many things that could be done besides empty threats. guess, they don't impress!

    [ Parent ]
    at lunch today (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:45:14 PM EST
    I was lucky enough to sit in earshot of a couple of Obama supporters.
    it spoiled my lunch.  literally.
    all the progress I had made toward reconciliation was erased.
    I wanted to kill them.


    [ Parent ]
    ok maybe not "kill" them (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:45:55 PM EST
    maybe just dump my pasta on their heads.

    [ Parent ]
    I can imagine (none / 0) (#159)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:00:18 PM EST
    what you had to listen to. I've heard it all myself in similar situations. I don't know why I'm still shocked by it, but I am.

    [ Parent ]
    at 1 pm (none / 0) (#171)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:05:21 PM EST
    I would have been willing to work phones for McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    and those ugly attitudes are not going (none / 0) (#189)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:15:06 PM EST
    away no matter how many unity ponies they have.

    [ Parent ]
    what did they say (none / 0) (#242)
    by DFLer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:41:57 PM EST
    to spoil your lunch?

    [ Parent ]
    maybe a hug with a tree (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:09:40 PM EST
    would help, I have an acacia tree in my yard...

    [ Parent ]
    Furthermore (5.00 / 11) (#10)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:53:34 PM EST
    Is the Obama blog admitting that everything that needs to changed about the primary system is the same everything that gave Obama all of the advantages and Clinton none?

    If so, if Obama is the best candidate, why would they want to change the system?

    Flawed logic unless you can admit the garbage system has produced well.... .


    Question for 2012 (none / 0) (#55)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:18:28 PM EST
    Say we all pitch in and try to come up with a solution to fix the primary system.  And then all the candidates agree to this new system ahead of time, sign forms, etc for the new rules in place for 2012.  

    Suddenly late in the primary season the second place candidate raise an objection to how the whole process is being run.  Should we always A) Change the system mid-stride or B) Finish the nomination as initially agreed before adjusting the system for the next cycle

    We will never have a system that satisfies everybody, but we can try our best and come up with a system that everybody agrees on ahead of time.

    However- it will never be fair to completely change the rules mid-game, when nobody raised objections ahead of time.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:49 PM EST
    and Obama should be ashamed for trying to do that.


    [ Parent ]
    Agreed, no more Brazile amendments (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by Cream City on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:14 PM EST
    as happened late this time, with changing the rule that stripped MI and FL of only half their delegates.  And it better revert back to that, erasing her last-minute manipulation of the rules committee, when it meets again in ten days.

    [ Parent ]
    but brazile and gang will be back (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:42:10 PM EST
    and they won't treat us any better. abused wives all know this.

    [ Parent ]
    I Read That Brazile Wants To Be Chairperson Of (5.00 / 2) (#214)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:34:07 PM EST
    the DNC. Wonder if Obama will give it to her.

    [ Parent ]
    Correct me if I'm wrong, (none / 0) (#78)
    by zfran on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:23 PM EST
    but the constitution says that the person coming in second become vp. At least that's how I read it!

    [ Parent ]
    My guess is that (none / 0) (#64)
    by riddlerandy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:23:49 PM EST
    Hillary folks had more input the primary process over the past several years than anyone with the Obama campaign.  

    [ Parent ]
    Your guess would be wrong (none / 0) (#157)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:59:05 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And your source is . . . . (none / 0) (#224)
    by riddlerandy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:50:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 14) (#11)
    by koshembos on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:53:47 PM EST
    we agree that we must all come together and wholeheartedly support and work hard for the Democratic nominee for President as well as all the Democratic candidates for elective office.

    Not me, I am not comfortable supporting race baiters, sexists, haters and fascists. Obama is dangerous to the party and the country and I cannot vote for that.

    I don't know (5.00 / 10) (#12)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:54:48 PM EST
    How can I, in good conscience, get behind a nominee (if that nominee is Obama) who I think, in my heart of hearts, will be a lousy one-term president, and damage the Democratic brand for at least a generation?

    My gut tells me he cannot even begin to fathom how to deal with all the problems we face, and may just end up making them worse.

    Too, if the Dem Congress goes along with him and things don't go well, they'll start to go in 2 years.

    I just can't vote for Obama.  

    Heh (5.00 / 23) (#13)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:55:19 PM EST
    Now Daily Kos wants to start laying the groundwork for unity, after they've let themselves outdo Andrew Sullivan in terms of sheer Hillary-hatred?

    There was a time, earlier in this primary, when it was quite clear Markos was thinking pragmatically and laying the groundwork for the site to support whoever the nominee might be.  At some point, like Josh Marshall, he decided to give in to his constituency and move into full-bore "Hillary is a GOP-lite racist" mode.

    I used to write diary after diary at Daily Kos, including pro-Obama diaries.  Markos once based a front-page diary on one of my comments.  And as it turns out, I haven't been back there in several months now and I wonder if I ever will.

    There's little wonder that I see so many women at this site make analogies to abusive husbands begging for another chance.  While I'm a sucker who will vote for Obama in spite of it all, I have my doubts that Daily Kos will be able to unring this particular bell.

    Indeed (5.00 / 9) (#23)
    by andgarden on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:01:50 PM EST
    Something snapped in February. I think kos decided it was over, and went nuclear on Hillary, like the hordes wanted him to well before.

    [ Parent ]
    I think BTD's post has two subjects (5.00 / 17) (#43)
    by dk on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:12:23 PM EST
    The first is Kos himself.  I respect that BTD and Jeralyn have a personal friendship with Markos and thus defend him.  However, with regard to Markos' credibility as a professional blogger, I think it's uncontroversial to say that it is completely shot.  The same, of course, goes for the other Obama bloggers, including Josh Marshall and, particularly sadly, Atrios.  The smears and double standards they have propogated against Hillary Clinton can't be taken back.  While, of course, they do and will write some things that many of us agree with, they simply can't be trusted anymore.  Heck, I'm sure even George W. Bush once in a while says things I agree with, but that doesn't mean I trust him or respect his opinion.

    Regarding Obama, I am waiting to see if he actually takes a position on anything before I decide whether or not to vote for him.  As Jeralyn has pointed out many times, he is on both sides of too many issues for me to know where he stands on pretty much anything.  I have voted Democrat for the last 20 years (as long as I have been old enough to vote), but I vote Democrat because I believe in the importance of achieving the goals of the Democratic party for the long-term.  If I do not think Obama will contribute to that, I will not vote for him.

    [ Parent ]

    But their credibility isn't shot (5.00 / 9) (#62)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:23:00 PM EST
    History is written by the winners.

    Unless something drastic happens, the narrative of this primary is and always will be that the Democratic primary voters rejected the flagrant race-baiting of Bill and Hillary Clinton, aside from a few sad states in Appalachia.

    Until they renounce that narrative it's very very hard to join hands with them.  I may vote for Obama but I'm not going to be part of authoring that sort of sick and twisted history.

    [ Parent ]

    It's too late for Obama to put his money (5.00 / 8) (#179)
    by Valhalla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:08:15 PM EST
    where his mouth is, for me.

    The unity thing does nothing for me.  Unity to me is two or more groups coming together, not one group trying to beat the hell out of the other with reprehensible words and tactics and then trying to hold their hands afterwards.

    I was trying to imagine what Obama could do make me relent and vote for him in the GE.  And there's nothing.  It's too late.  I'm not able to trust what he says.  He doesn't have a strong enough record to back up what he says he'll do.  Words alone, even had be been perfectly consistent throughout the campaign, are not enough, given his actions (or rather lack of action) in failing to rein in his hate-filled, misogynist supporters who disdain just about everything I am (female, working class background, Clinton supporter).

    The armageddon scenario also does nothing for me, not anymore.  I won't vote for McCain and won't rejoice if he wins.  But I've voted Democrat in 6 elections and I keep waiting for the DNC to give two bits about my concerns.  I do understand the argument for coming together, and in fact made it many times to Nader supporters in 2000.  But there comes a time when you have to ask yourself, can I really lend myself to this bad choice, just because the other choice is worse?  By supporting Obama I would just be supporting all the things I hate, and have spent a lot of my life working against.

    The most obvious is that gender-baiting can help you win an election.  I just can't go there.  But the less obvious is the way the country in general has slid down and away from reason and intelligence into superficial, sound-bite, American-Idol voting slickness.  No equal time, no analysis, no reasoned argument, just shouting, shouting shouting that I'm right and you're wrong.

    I've only known about TL a short time, and I respect the opinions of BTD and Jeralyn immensely, and for making the site a place of real discussion.  I respect the opinions of anyone who does feel party unity is the more important thing.  But I just can't play anymore.

    [ Parent ]

    Atrios (none / 0) (#146)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:54:38 PM EST
    was doing a good job of being even-handed until he voted for Obama in PA.  I was a daily visitor to his site since its inception, and have been saddened to let it go.

    In in posting header on the WV and KY elections, he says only "People vote too much."  I'm not absolutely sure what he means, but I don't think it's very nice or democratic.

    [ Parent ]

    it's a nice statement (5.00 / 17) (#17)
    by Turkana on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:02 PM EST
    except that his arguments, and the tone of his arguments, have, for months, run counter to it. the whole "coup by superdelegate" idea, which betrayed either a lack of understanding of the rules, or a desire to change them in the middle of the game, to de-legitimize a possible clinton win.

    Nice to see that DK has (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Lahdee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:17 PM EST
    caught up with you BTD.

    Hillary may take fight to convention (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:26 PM EST
    This Is A Great Idea And I Will Be Truly P.O.'d (5.00 / 10) (#33)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:07:11 PM EST
    if this thing doesn't go to the convention.  Time to air the dirty laundry, and that is just the place...whatever doesn't kill ya, makes ya stronger.

    [ Parent ]
    I think that's why she went to Florida (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:56:05 PM EST
    Her speech was great. I don't think she's going to accept a phony "half the delegates" proposal.

    People vote so they can have an impact on the election. Halving the delegates doesn't represent the will of the people.

    [ Parent ]

    I Am Sure Hillary Will Be More Warmly Rec'd (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:10:06 PM EST
    than obama.  There was talk about alot of protesting that was supposed to transpire in FLA.
    The general public needs to see these sorts of things to learn what EXACTLY is going on.

    [ Parent ]
    I want nothing to do with Daily Obama. (5.00 / 13) (#22)
    by masslib on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:01:20 PM EST


    He can go on about unity all he likes... (5.00 / 8) (#26)
    by outsider on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:03:02 PM EST
    but it's just empty rhetoric if, in the same breath, he goes on to imply that the "Clinton people" are trying to win by changing the rules (presumably he has MI and FL in mind here).  Dems need to push back on this talking point very hard.  It is not changing the rules if the Rules and Bylaws Committee seats the FL and MI delegates.  And it is not changing the rules if the superdelegates give the nomination to Hillary in spite of Obama's pledged delgate lead.  The rules allow both of these things to happen.  If you were interested in unity you wouldn't suggest that the only way for HRC to win is to steal the nom/cheat.  That insinuation sets the Dem party up for a massive split should HRC in fact win.

    Anyway.  Ride on Unity Pony.

    My take (5.00 / 8) (#31)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:34 PM EST
    He's trying to get people back to his site.

    Let's face it, like the networks, my guess is that he has lost traffic.  Less traffic - less revenue.

    Then, if he really is working closely with the Obama campaign, well, who knows what's in store for him.

    It's all about the money.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't think (5.00 / 6) (#166)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:02:47 PM EST
    it's about bring people back to his site as much as it's about making sure Obama wins in the GE.  They've (Kos, Obama etal) have finally realized how pissed off we are. They may not truly understand why we're so mad, and how they might be directly responsible for it, but they know they need us in Nov. to beat McCain.

    So all the talk of unity, and trying to scare us with Roe v Wade (because of course all of Hillary's supporters are old women), is their all-thumbs attempt to bring us into the fold.

    Until they realize their own roles in hurting Hillary, her supporters and the party, I'm not giving them the time of day.  Sometimes tough love is the only way to get people see the error of their ways.

    [ Parent ]

    The nominating process is this way for reasons (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by wurman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:30 PM EST
    Back in the day, it seemed impossible for an unknown candidate to get a campaign started & funded without backroom, backdoor, backslapping connections.  The proportional allocation of delegates per congressional district was so that a person could campaign in good faith, score over 15 percent of the vote or caucus & get some early delegates.  It clearly made it possible for a person who was not part of the establishment to get started.

    The statewide assigned proportional allocation of party leaders & elected officials was to ensure that the local regulars could still be assured of a presence at the convention--even if some upstart swept away a large percentage of the vote or caucus.

    The superdelegates were established as a fallback to make sure that the party could change the nominee at the convention if a putative "winner" suddenly became dead, a criminal, a closet GOoPer, or a newt.

    It coulda', woulda', shoulda' worked.  But, the problem is as per Shakespeare's Marc Antony:

    Friends, Democrats, countrymen, lend me your ears;
    I come to dismiss Clinton, not to praise her.
    The evil that people do lives after them;
    The good is oft interred with their campaigns;
    So let it be with Clinton. The noble Obama
    Hath told you Clinton was ambitious:
    If it were so, it was a grievous fault;
    And grievously hath Clinton answer'd it.
    Here, under leave of Obama and the rest,--
    For Obama is an honorable man;
    So are they all, all honorable men,--
    Come I to speak at Clinton's fall from grace.
    She was my friend, faithful and just to me:
    But Obama says she was ambitious;
    And Obama is an honorable man.

    [My changes italicized]

    that was awsum (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:41 PM EST
    I am stealing and reusing that.


    [ Parent ]
    You're welcome (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by wurman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:04 PM EST
    If you're gonna' plagiarize, steal from the best.

    [ Parent ]
    Try this one... (none / 0) (#114)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:41:16 PM EST
    On Helen next :