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How Not To Win Over Voters

First step, blame them for not voting for you. Here is a prime example of why Democrats lose white working class voters, this headline -- Appalachia's Last Chance to Show It Doesn't Have an Obama Problem.

Yes, tell voters they have a problem when they do not vote for you. Heck of a general election plan. When candidates and/or their supporters are blaming the voters, you know you have a problem.

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    the comments are lovely--the unity pony gallops (5.00 / 7) (#1)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:16:30 PM EST


    Here is a perfect one. (5.00 / 5) (#40)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:53 PM EST
    The commenter comes right out with it, no code words, no dog whistles, no subtlety, no nuance.

    DK comment link.

    [You were warned.]

    [ Parent ]
    I bet he was pretty proud of himself (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:18 PM EST
    for writing that.  Smacking his lips in smug self-satisfaction.

    I know the people of WV - they'd quickly bring a darned fool like that down to size.

    [ Parent ]

    My WV friend (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:43:13 PM EST
    told me what would happen if Rev Phelps ever came back to protest another funeral in WV.  I believed him.  They take care of their own and they do not like meddling outsiders, especially blatantly disrespectful ones.

    [ Parent ]
    It can't possibly be that they simply prefer (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:16:35 PM EST
    Hillary, as did voters in states such as TX, CA, OH, MA, etc...

    California is obviously (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by Evie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:38 PM EST
    the Appalachia of the West.

    [ Parent ]
    And MA the Appalachia of the East! n/t (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:32:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    and TX the Appalachia of the South West (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by ding7777 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:31 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And the Appalachia of the North (none / 0) (#131)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:59:02 PM EST
    will be Wisconsin, with the way that the polls are going for McCain. . . .

    [ Parent ]
    If she takes Puerto Rico (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by cloudy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:49:39 PM EST
    will that make them the Appalachia of the Atlantic?

    [ Parent ]
    along with Nevada (none / 0) (#93)
    by ding7777 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:42:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I am an Appalachian! (5.00 / 16) (#3)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:16:38 PM EST
    because I have an Obama problem, too.

    C'mon, let's play "I am Spartacus" on DHinMi.  What an idjit throughout this campaign, most memorably in the infamous front-page meltdown on That Site That Shall Not Be Named.  (I.e., warning to others wishing to avoid TSTSNN not to click on the link.)

    good belly laugh - thank you! (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:18:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I am an Appalachian! (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by liminal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:25:21 PM EST
    ...and to be fair, it's actually true.  I'm also a Knight of the Golden Horseshoe.

    That said, I welcome all y'all, and offer you a delicious Tudor's biscuit to welcome you to the club.  Also, a pepperoni roll.  And a mint julip.  

    [ Parent ]

    Oh goodness... (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:35:19 PM EST
    I miss a good pepperoni roll.

    [ Parent ]
    So how's the racism in Appalachia? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:38:25 PM EST
    We certainly have it here in Southern Cal, though in a much more subtle and closeted form, though that hasn't stopped me from hearing "n*gger" more than a few times, and not from Chris Rock at the Comedy Store.  

    [ Parent ]
    It's the same as it is anywhere (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:54:32 PM EST
    Racists exist here but this idea that Clinton wins because of it is absurd. Most of the folks I know who voted for Clinton(disclosure: I voted Edwards) did so because they felt she was more experienced and I am outraged on their behalf that their support for Clinton be reduced to charges of racism.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not sure that the point of your comment (5.00 / 6) (#160)
    by liminal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:07:38 PM EST
    might be.  Yeah, absolutely, there is racism in Appalachia.  But that doesn't mean that all Appalachians are racist, or that racism is the prime mover behind HRC's big wins in the region.  Moreover, if say, the netroots were actually concerned about issues like poverty and race in this country, and especially in impoverished areas like rural Kentucky or West Virginia, there would be fewer front-page accusations of virulent racism in favor of deeper and more thoughtful examinations of the legacy of racism and poverty, or the importance of supporting rural economies, or income disparity or access to healthcare or labor history or or or or or the importance, actually, of asking people in person for their votes in a way that respects their strengths and their flaws and their citizenship in this great country.  

    I suspect, actually, that the, uh, constant barrage of assertions that Appalachians are unrelentingly racist has only served to uhm, make things worse rather than better.  

    [ Parent ]

    We are all Appalachians (5.00 / 9) (#45)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:06 PM EST
    in the spirit of JFK's "We are all Berliners"

    I stand with Appalachia - indeed, my mom is from there - in saying, we choose who we want to choose, and if you have a problem with it, that's YOUR problem.

    [ Parent ]

    Sad state where you have to quote Repubs (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:56 PM EST
    but there's a YouTube where Tucker Carlson and Pat Buchanan defend West Virginians from people like the Kos crowd... how not to win over voters, indeed.

    http://www.youtube.com/v/In_4u4OgSGo&hl=en

    [ Parent ]

    Remember the Redneck Army- (5.00 / 5) (#149)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:04:26 PM EST
    The coal miners, black and white, took on the coal companies and the National Guard for the right to organize back in the '20's. Many died for the cause.

    [ Parent ]
    The History Channel (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by liminal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:09:22 PM EST
    Was showing some program about hillbillies, narrated by Billy Ray Cyrus when I got home last night.  They had a half-hour about Sid Hatfield, the Baldwin-Felts, the Red Neck Army and the Battle of Blair Mountain.

    [ Parent ]
    Plugged that History Channel special (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:55:58 PM EST
    elsewhere -- saw some of it last night, too, and it will run again.  It's at least an hour long, and I especially was enamored of the history of the early years that explains the cussedness (my WV relatives' term) of your lovely area of the country.  Last week's primary had me pining to go back to WV.

    That and the thought of a pepperoni roll from this little corner of a place in Fairmont.  Mmmmmmmm.

    [ Parent ]

    I am an Appaloosa's ... (5.00 / 5) (#74)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:36:49 PM EST
    ... rear end, or so the Obamalytes tell me when they're not calling me a racist or religious bigot.

    [ Parent ]
    I selflessly offer to replenish KY with liberals (5.00 / 3) (#197)
    by Ellie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:30:54 PM EST
    ... by mating like crazy with Kentucky's long lost favorite liberal son.

    No, please ... stand back ladies ... it's my pleasure to take this for the team.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe that's they're plan..write such (none / 0) (#59)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:32:54 PM EST
    ridiculous diaries that everyone calls them out and provides a link to the stupidity.  That brings up their hits for the day!

    [ Parent ]
    You have to laugh! (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:17:12 PM EST
    DHinMI probably has some delusion that he or she is revealing some great truth.  The sense of self-importance of some of these people is overwhelming.  I think in a previous post by BTD Andgarden explained quite well why Obama does not win Appalachia;  rocky/icarus...

    You really don't need much else.

    I'll ask again (5.00 / 13) (#5)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:17:19 PM EST
    what makes you think that Obama is going to work to get these voters back?   Other than his talk about "unity," what has he done to actually achieve it?

    This is not the first time that Obama's voter problems have been blamed on others.  Obama himself constantly shifts blame, whether it's his staff erroneously filling out a form, or bitter clingers who are voting against their better interests.

    I just don't see anything Obama has done in the last six months that can be pointed to as evidence that he will work to bring the party together.  This is disastrous.

    Thank God Clinton is still in it to win.  Rise, Hillary, Rise!

    Kathy, Kathy, Kathy, (5.00 / 7) (#33)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:26:21 PM EST
    One cannot just talk to the ignorant class of the democratic party.  You have to establish and set perimeters first.

    We reserve sitting down and talking for our enemies in other countries.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:18 PM EST
    is using the standard playbook for losing dems: jack up the vote in the city and hope for the best in the rest of the state. We've seen this movie before most recently in 2004. I have no desire to see it again.

    [ Parent ]
    Question (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:57:20 PM EST
    Hi, I'm new here...

    But I'd like to expand on a few things you said with which I don't exactly agree.

    "This is not the first time that Obama's voter problems have been blamed on others.  Obama himself constantly shifts blame, whether it's his staff erroneously filling out a form, or bitter clingers who are voting against their better interests."

    My biggest problem here (and even with the thread topic) is that dumb comments that one supporter (DHinMI) makes are attributed to the candidate themselves.  I really do not believe that either candidate agrees with most of what their supporters say.

    I could probably just as easily cherry-pick statements made from Hillary supporters in the opposite manner- but she is still an amazing candidate, and I doubt she would agree with everything her supporters say.

    So first off I think we should establish that Obama is not blaming anybody here himself, and I very much doubt he would agree with what one (insignificant) supporter is claiming.

    Secondly- the "bitter" comment that some people are still bitter about ;) was not at all directed towards the current election cycle.  It was in reference to Republicans exploiting wedge issues to win in prior elections against Democrats.  So I really don't understand how you attribute that as him blaming people for his troubles winning certain demographics.  Or at least this is how I  understood it- if you'd like to discuss it further maybe you can help me see your point of view on the matter.

    "I just don't see anything Obama has done in the last six months that can be pointed to as evidence that he will work to bring the party together.  This is disastrous."

    Similarly I don't see how Obama has worked to drive the party apart (or similarly, what Hillary has done to bring the party together).  What is driving the party apart are the devoted followers of both candidates.

    I personally will vote for whoever the democratic nominee is in November, because I believe both of them will work to better our country in a manner consistent with Democratic ideals.  In my opinion, the only people who are driving the party apart are those that claim they won't vote for the Democratic candidate in November if it isn't their candidate.  But if you disagree, I'd like to know why.


    [ Parent ]

    I understand what you are saying (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:22:15 PM EST
    howver when you have Brazile on national TV declaring that they don't need working class whites and Daschle on TV declaring he vote for the GOP anyway, you can't relegate the problem to one or two Obama supporters.

    That said, I recc'd your coment because the tone was one that is welcome.

    [ Parent ]

    I'd agree (none / 0) (#206)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:58:51 PM EST
    That it isn't just one or two Obama supporters.  And I really can't justify what Brazile says on national TV.  At the same time, I feel like it is almost the media's job to create controversy.  They want ratings, which is probably why they keep Brazile around.  I'd really prefer that she wasn't there- but unfortunately I can't do much about it :(

    So while there are a number of people out there who are fanatical about their candidate, I'd prefer not to judge either candidate themselves for comments that they didn't have control over.  I mean, if a candidate really was so authoritarian that they could control all of the talking points their supporters used, would you really want to vote for them?

    (Also I'm unfamiliar with what exactly Daschle said- maybe you could point me towards a link?)

    [ Parent ]

    Hi newcomer (5.00 / 3) (#200)
    by tree on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:44:06 PM EST
    For a link on Obama blaming his staffers repeatedly during this campaign see here

    And you have it wrong on what Obama was saying in SF about rural voters. He was NOT referring to previous campaigns or to Republicans. He was asked why he wasn't doing well against Clinton in small town PA in the upcoming primary. He was explaining why they were supporting her and not him. It had nothing to do with earlier elections or Republicans. It was an answer to a question about why he was doing so poorly with rural Democrats.

    [ Parent ]

    Also... (5.00 / 3) (#203)
    by tree on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:53:51 PM EST
    Here's a link to Obama's quote:

    "I am confident I will get her votes if I'm the nominee," Obama stressed. "It's not clear she would get the votes I got if she were the nominee."
    2/01/2008

    Hillary has consistently said she would support and campaign for whoever is the Democratic nominee, and has even told supporters at her rallies and events that it would be a mistake for them to support McCain over Obama. Obama has said no such equivalent statement. He's used gestures like brushing off his shoulders to dismiss her, and gestured that she had stuck a knife in him and twisted it, in front of thousands of laughing fans. He does nothing to stop his supporters from booing when her name is mentioned. He's been silent in the face of nasty comments about her from his surrogates and high level supporters. He doesn't seem to have the slightest concept of what it takes to unify.

    [ Parent ]

    This explanation (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by kayla on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:53:43 PM EST
    keeps popping up here from Obama supporters.

    Secondly- the "bitter" comment that some people are still bitter about ;) was not at all directed towards the current election cycle.  It was in reference to Republicans exploiting wedge issues to win in prior elections against Democrats.  So I really don't understand how you attribute that as him blaming people for his troubles winning certain demographics.  Or at least this is how I  understood it- if you'd like to discuss it further maybe you can help me see your point of view on the matter.

    If you read and/or heard his full statement you would know that he was talking about this election and why white working class people were not voting for him, but instead voting for Hillary Clinton.  He wasn't talking about Republican vs. Democrat as Hillary is a Democrat.

    [ Parent ]

    Last Chance For Urban Voters To Prove (5.00 / 14) (#6)
    by lorelynn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:17:24 PM EST
    They Don't Have A "Hillary" Problem. Or a "women president" problem. Funny how we never see those headlines. Apparently, people only come up short on the evolution scale when they refuse to vote for Obama. Refusing to vote for a woman though is the very height of enlightenment.

    Here's a headline you'll love: (5.00 / 15) (#46)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:30 PM EST
    "Memo to Clinton: Please Don't Quit" -- from a black male columnist and editorial board member of the Kansas City Star, in that pseudo-Appalachian state of Missouri.

    I love these lines as much as the headline:

    Every girl needs you to go the distance. You have come too far to fold now. For every woman's and girl's sake, don't quit.

    Men and boys need to witness your perseverance, too, and know that the force of your will is in the hearts and minds of every female. Such drive, determination, duty and character have helped to make this country a superpower.

    Even though no woman has been president up to now, every woman has given endless amounts of sweat, blood and true grit to make this nation what it is today.

    There would be no America if women had folded under the strain of child birth or if women hadn't endured the misery of scratching out a living from the land, traveling across the vastness of our countryside. Women have been treated like chattel and second-class citizens, working in sweat shops, remaining in the shadows endlessly serving others and maintaining the home front while their sons come home from the wars.

    Still, women make only 77 cents for every dollar that men earn.

    Don't quit. Our men and boys need to see you go the distance.

    But do read it in its entirety.  It's great.

    [ Parent ]

    What a gracious letter (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:50:00 PM EST
    "Don't quit. Our men and boys need to see you go the distance."

    [ Parent ]
    I guess (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:18:12 PM EST
    this is standard issue. If Obama's the nominee and he loses in Nov. I guess this is what they will do. I guess it kind of stinks when the voters won't go along with your plans.

    Heh (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:18:22 PM EST
    The blatant use of "Appalachia" as a code word for racism is just disgusting.  Gee, do we really think they're all so stupid that they won't understand teh code?

    Isn't a given at DK likely Dem. voters (5.00 / 8) (#14)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:20:33 PM EST
    don't read all that well, probably don't have electricity at home, and most certainly don't have Internet access to DK.  

    [ Parent ]
    As has been demonstrated even by DH's map (5.00 / 8) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:21:28 PM EST
    Appalachia includes all of South Florida, MA, RI, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course the famous Appalachian Latinos (5.00 / 17) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:25:42 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Juan-Boy (5.00 / 26) (#39)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:52 PM EST
    Best.  Walton.  Evah.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL! (5.00 / 7) (#62)
    by Radiowalla on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:27 PM EST
    Best laugh of the week!

    [ Parent ]
    Buenos Noches, y'all! (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by janarchy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Cubans are from Appalachia?? (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:16 PM EST
    Who knew?? Makes that embargo look even sillier now, doesn't it??

    [ Parent ]
    And parts of Michigan... (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Can Texas join? n/t (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Sure (5.00 / 6) (#129)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:58:26 PM EST
    Send me your address and I'll send you some dirt in the mail. That way you can have your very own excuse for why Obama doesn't do well there come GE time.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you! (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:01:20 PM EST
    It feels so good to BELONG.

    [ Parent ]
    we were included in the group a long time (none / 0) (#218)
    by hellothere on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:23:18 PM EST
    ago. that western twang and cowboy boots was the final straw for the obama campaign. texas has a written part of the agreement to join as i recall where it could break into five states if the good citizens so wanted. now wouldn't that be special?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 8) (#71)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:36:00 PM EST
    Those mountains extend all the way down to Oklahoma as well, it seems.

    This demonstrates why Obama's unfortunate San Francisco comments were not universally viewed as a gaffe.  So many liberals really do look down on working-class voters and the less educated and less "enlightened" regions of our country.  As a Midwesterner now living in NYC, I see it every day.

    Many liberals felt the "bitter" thing was a 100% faux controversy because gosh, what Obama said was so obviously true.  At least to them.

    [ Parent ]

    Here in NJ, part of the Appalachian Trail goes (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:36:00 PM EST
    through a tiny part of far northwestern NJ.

    Just sayin'.

    We are all Appalachians now.

    [ Parent ]

    well... (5.00 / 13) (#19)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:02 PM EST
    they can't use "water problem," as in, states that are located near large bodies of water, such at the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean, the Gulf of Mexico, and many of the Great Lakes (though not extending into Oregon).

    I mean--look at all the major states she has won that are near large bodies of water!  Throw in the Eerie Canal and it gets even, well, eerier!

    suggested NYT headline: Obama's Water Broke

    [ Parent ]

    double belly laugh on that one (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:24:02 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    "Eerie Canal" (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:38:12 PM EST
    just cracked me up.  I've seen it -- had to see such a historic thing, but it was dusk, and it has  become overgrown -- so it was sort of eerie.:-)

    This is right up there with that endemic typo on this site, "eek" for "eke."  (That one's for Oculus who also keeps a style guide at hand and also must freke at every "eek" for "eke" here.)

     

    [ Parent ]

    sigh (none / 0) (#105)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:46:46 PM EST
    You really get me.

    [ Parent ]
    When I went to Cooperstown last (none / 0) (#126)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:51 PM EST
    summer, I asked the waitperson at a local restaurant quite close to the Erie Canal if there were boat rides available on the canal.  She replied:  which canal?  I guess they don't sing: got a mule and her name is Sal in them thar part.  Surprising.  

    [ Parent ]
    It's such a shame (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:05:57 PM EST
    because the building of that canal brought water-resistant concrete into the modern world.  It gave so much, yet gets back so little.

    Oh, great Erie...we hardly knew ye!

    [ Parent ]

    It made New York "the Empire State" (none / 0) (#184)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:21:15 PM EST
    although a lot of people think that means New York is the empire.  Not so; that nickname arose to mean it became the commercial outlet for the Midwest -- the empire -- thanks to the Erie Canal.  

    Many of my state's settlers came west from NY via the Erie Canal to the Great Lakes, shortening the trip by many weeks compared to the overland route.  And then they raised the crops that made the Midwest the breadbasket of the world, sent back east to NY.  That made it the commercial center of the country.

    And they never were "bitter" or "clinging" when they came to the Midwest, nor are they now.:-)


    [ Parent ]

    it was a darn interesting show on the history (none / 0) (#220)
    by hellothere on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:24:50 PM EST
    channel or was it discovery one night.

    [ Parent ]
    OT but we used (none / 0) (#221)
    by isaac on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:29:14 PM EST
    to sing that song in grammar school, good times

    [ Parent ]
    The Holier-Than-Thou (5.00 / 9) (#10)
    by frankly0 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:19:28 PM EST
    wing of the Democratic Party strikes again.

    Sometimes I feel like the only reason some of these people even join the Democratic Party is because it allows them to hold themselves as superior to other people.

    And I wonder if this isn't what has drawn such an unattractive crowd to Obama, who, himself, seems more deficient than any politician I can think of in the ability to convey empathy or warmth or even basic concern about the human beings who stand at the other end of his grand sounding speeches.

    BTW (5.00 / 9) (#88)
    by frankly0 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:30 PM EST
    does anybody remember the outrage that the Obama camp - most especially its fanboy bloggers at DailyKos and Josh Marshall -- could not stop hectoring Hillary supporters about, over the supposed dismissiveness of Hillary's campaign to smaller states? Remember their outsize anger over the alleged disparaging of the voters of those states (even though the only point the Hillary camp was making was that those states meant little or nothing to winning the electoral college)?

    Now we see twits like this guy at DKos trashing the voters across an entire region as being essentially ignorant racists.

    Sometimes I think that there is a sizable group of people, of which these Obama supporters are paradigm examples, who simply are immensely comfortable with their own hypocrisy. It doesn't shame them or embarrass them or in any way induce in them a sense of unease. They turn on a dime, and will do today the exact thing that yesterday they were decrying in others in tones of high moral dungeon. And both today and yesterday, they are every bit convinced of their own superiority in what they are doing and advocating.

    [ Parent ]

    frankly0 (none / 0) (#25)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:23:03 PM EST
    You just need to "hope" a little more..then you'll feel it.

    [ Parent ]
    Ah, the SUPERIOR wing of the party... (none / 0) (#34)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:27:00 PM EST
    which plays into my "water problem" theory for Obama.  All of the states bordering Lake SUPERIOR are golden for him.  (It is assumed, of course, that when MI is seated, Obama will get all of the delegates)

    [ Parent ]
    That's okay, it's only the Yoopers (none / 0) (#90)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:44 PM EST
    of Michigan that border Lake Superior.  They wouldn't mind reverting back to not being part of the state with the rest of 'em they call trolls (because they're "under" the Mackinac Bridge:-).

    [ Parent ]
    I thought the Great Lakes were in Oregon now? (none / 0) (#211)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:10:41 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    i think that writer (5.00 / 12) (#12)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:20:32 PM EST
    should be more concerned with the problems of daily kos than with the "problems" with appalachia...

    Don't you love his last line.... (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:59 PM EST
    "Clinton will win Kentucky.  But as we've known since February Barack Obama will be the Democratic nominee for President."

    Excuse me?  Maybe the fix was in more than I suspected...all the way back to February.  

    [ Parent ]

    I ran into another Obama (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:39 PM EST
    supporting professor yesterday. He made a snide remark about Hillary getting her last hurrah in Ky, or something like that. If Obama is the nominee, I think I will tell all these people I am donating the maximum to McCain. Of course, I'm too cheap to do that, in reality.

    [ Parent ]
    Do you see that article (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:39:04 PM EST
    that Cream City posted?

    Go get it. Print it out. Tack it to that prof's door.

    He should know better.

    [ Parent ]

    heh (none / 0) (#79)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:59 PM EST
    tell them that, but be sure to vote for obama, despite his supporters!

    [ Parent ]
    Well, he spoke bizarrely and (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:44:48 PM EST
    derisively of Hillary's populist appeals. I said I was happy to see her running a more populist campaign, and he said he likes it too.
    I think he is just another person who feels its more cool to support Obama.


    [ Parent ]
    Ahhhh, no can do, Turkana. (none / 0) (#182)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:21:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Not just any writer - but DHinMI (5.00 / 6) (#83)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:39:13 PM EST
    DHinMI has been writing front paged drek for months now.  He was the first FPer that I thought should be fired.

    [ Parent ]
    heh (5.00 / 8) (#103)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:45:34 PM EST
    i was one of a group that had some run-ins with him and his sycophants, just over a year ago, then abided by a truce brokered by mcjoan. i'm a huge fan of mcjoan! so, i stayed out of his way, tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and noticed how many people who had nothing to do with that one particular group or series of incidents also had problems with him. it seems a constant, with him. i've even seen other admins (respected ones) publicly tell him to back off. but he and markos are close, apparently, and the tone he helps set at dk is apparently okay with markos, who is all about quantity of hits rather than quality of writing and atmosphere.

    [ Parent ]
    It's been said before, but... (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by rghojai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:12:07 PM EST
    ...some people, now ex-Kossacks, saw this coming long before February. Among the upsides of search capabilities: While anyone can say anything, it's easy to see if a person or people have been reasonable, aren't fervently backing a candidate, if they've even picked a candidate. Clearly, a not-trivial number of reasonable Kossacks--some of whom were/are prominent--had real concerns about where things seemed to be going, tried to engage Kos.

    I avoided run-ins with people there because it felt like spitting in the wind, but felt like enough of a community member that it was appropriate to add my voice to those expressing concerns about what was going on in the community. I had my say, nothing changed except for it getting worse so I chose to leave.

    Whatever motivated the powers that be, mighty hard to see how, as turkana said, quality of writing and atmosphere were among the motivations.

    [ Parent ]

    Can't we just (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:20:33 PM EST
    Let them keep doing what they're doing?

    I just hope that getting called irredeemable (5.00 / 14) (#16)
    by tigercourse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:21:23 PM EST
    racists day in and day out for the next 5 off months doesn't have any kind of adverse effect on the voters.

    Trying to argue a point earlier (5.00 / 7) (#18)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:21:37 PM EST
    that making people feel good is one way to win their votes.  (How one does that wasn't part of my argument.)

    Equally obvious is that making people feel BAD is one way to lose their votes.

    I keep wondering why this seems to hard to grasp.  Uplifting emotional rhetoric or addressing issues that people care about are ways to make people "feel good".

    Insulting their social group, gender, economic class are ways to make people "feel bad".

    This should be second, no first nature to a politician.

    Hill Raiser (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:19 PM EST
    Stop commenting. They all disappear.

    As soon as J comes back from celebrating her son;s swearing in you will be gone.

    Thanks (2.00 / 0) (#35)
    by CST on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:27:03 PM EST
    People like that give the rest of us a bad name.

    [ Parent ]
    Next person to respond to Hill Raiser (1.00 / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:29:48 PM EST
    will be banned.

    [ Parent ]
    Please Don't Ban Me (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:06 PM EST
    I just responded to Hill Raiser on another thread before I saw this.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry! (none / 0) (#47)
    by CST on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:33 PM EST
    Just trying to help...

    [ Parent ]
    And they call *us* low-information voters? (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:26 PM EST


    When identity politics are not involved many (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by nycvoter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:29 PM EST
    people simply pick the better candidate, or the candidate they connect with better.  That candidate is Hillary Clinton, not Barak Obama.

    Please warn us before sending us to Daily Kos, I don't like to give them traffice

    Helpful hint (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by tree on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:36 PM EST
    Hover your arrow over the link but don't click. Look at the bottom of the screen. It will display the link source(i.e., dailykos, or other). It helps me to decide whether to click or not.

    [ Parent ]
    Identity politics is (none / 0) (#118)
    by Practically Lactating on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:53:51 PM EST
    always involved, regardless of whether there happens to be a woman or an AA running.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks for the "Hint" (none / 0) (#159)
    by delandjim on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:07:31 PM EST
    I had clicked the link before reading this. Oh well.

    [ Parent ]
    I deeply resent TeamObama's presumptions (5.00 / 7) (#124)
    by Ellie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:22 PM EST
    Slamming supporters of other candidates as racists is offensive beyond description. This isn't 'equal' to Sen Clinton's criticism of coverage of herself and her campaign by media, where she cites specifics.

    She does NOT criticize African American voters for racism or lemming-behavior -- or any other trope -- for supporting Obama.

    Meanwhile, Obama is baldly and routinely dismissive, sexist and insulting as a way a fomenting media "just us guys here" misogyny. Clinton is throwing china at him?

    She's Annie Oakley with her lil'pistols? Let the lady fight her lil'fight? She's spring training to him ... a good workout before the REAL fight between REAL men/candidates in the GE. (Obama defenders and troll paTrolls: use tags and catch up as these references are all linked to recorded events and statements. I won't do your homework for you.)

    The biggest insult is that Obama has so many NEW voters that he doesn't need us "old" Dem voters. WTF?

    I'm younger, more liberal, more involved in progressive causes than RW-embracing fauxgressive Obama and his new and wheezing self flattering older supporters are.

    So my message to them is: go ahead and do it, and don't whine that I'm not on board with an agenda that I didn't sign on for.

    (And don't expect to blame me or pick up your sh!t when this joy ride flames out.)

    [ Parent ]

    Seems like people are fed up with voter bashing (5.00 / 28) (#26)
    by nell on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:23:32 PM EST
    This comment is at, "Clinton Supporters in Their Own Words," and I really liked it and wanted to share it here (link to article: http://preview.tinyurl.com/6gatvs)

    Boycotting Obama Will Lead to Famine, Armaggeddon, Government-Controlled Uteruses, and other Scare Tactics

    A lot of desperate Democrats are suddenly scrambling to "unify" with Clinton's supporters, now that they realize that their snowjob of an election will lead to an Obama boycott in November. The classic line says that we need to avoid letting emotions interfere with judgment and to think about "the issues." Well, here's my answer (disclaimer: I do not have a uterus).

    First of all, I do not need to clear my head and take a deep breath. I am a lifetime Democrat, and I have been voting for Democrats since the mid-80s. I am very experienced having my candidate lose, but then moving on to support the party ticket. In past primaries, for example, I voted for Dean, Bradley, and Jesse Jackson (twice!). I get the idea of party unity....Next.

    Second, my vote represents more than just support for a set of standard liberal issues. It also protests liberal hypocrisy. The party espouses an equality rhetoric but has undermined it during this election. The party has bashed poor white people, as if they are responsible for the racially segregated nature of corporate America, U.S imperialism, and the exploitation of vulnerable consumers. The party has ignored Latino voters because recognizing them challenges the "only racists vote for Clinton script." The party has invented claims of racial injustice to demonize the Clintons. The party has ridiculed "uneducated" voters, even though Democrats supposedly represent disadvantaged people. Male party members and liberal media have constantly called for Clinton to drop out -- starting after Iowa -- in order to place an aura of doubt around her campaign. The party has completely ignored or even denied the sexist treatment of Clinton, while responding with absolute venom to any real or imagined "racism" directed towards Obama. The party has allowed Obama to wear multiple racial hats -- the nonracial black man, the just black enough to be an historic black president, and the black racial victim - to secure votes. But if Clinton deviates even slightly from a prior script, she is portrayed as a horrible witch who would do "anything to get elected." I refuse to join this madness.

    Third, I am unmoved by the pro-Obama scare tactics ("what about Roe, the war, health care, etc.). These are just Karl Rovian "red alerts." Obama is not entitled to our votes. Whatever loyalty the party had from me prior to this election has been depleted. Earlier on when we wanted to discuss progressive issues, the Obama camp and the media silenced our efforts and instead focused on the big rock star pep rallies, Obamania, Camelot, weeping college students, and a host of other unimportant concerns. They told us that we and Clinton were cold and unhopeful, that Clinton was a mere "policy wonk," while Obama made people "feel good again." Suddenly, you want to talk about the issues because it benefits Obama. That's way too unprincipled for me.

    Clearly the party leadership has determined that anytime Obama looks weak, the "boys" will endorse him or call for Clinton to leave because she is "hurting the party" and "kneecapping" the "first viable black presidential candidate." Well, party leadership and media, you made these rules; suffer the consequences. To paraphrase Obama, don't tell me my disgust with your behavior doesn't matter. Don't tell me sexism doesn't matter. Don't tell me liberal hypocrisy doesn't matter. Don't tell me I must vote for Obama in order to be a "real" Democrat. If being a real Democrat means bashing women, the poor, and the elderly, manipulating race, ignoring Latinos, and stifling dissent, then I respectfully resign my membership! Achieving justice requires sacrifice, brutal honesty, and passionate commitment. I will not "endorse anything to get a Democrat elected," and neither should you.

    -- A Black Male Civil Rights Attorney

    Posted by: Tony Smith | May 20, 2008 12:50 PM

    I couldn't (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:37 PM EST
    have said it any better.  I might add some more, but  ... excellent article

    [ Parent ]
    Beautiful. n/t (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:14 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Best post of the day (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Buckeye on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:36:34 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Wish I had some sort of zapper that (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:45:38 PM EST
    allowed me to superimpose this over news coverage this evening.

    [ Parent ]
    I love this. (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:55:56 PM EST
    I'm printing it up & sending it to the DNC. It embodies everything I've been trying to say much better then I've been saying it.

    [ Parent ]
    Now (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:17 PM EST
    THAT'S a democrat!

    [ Parent ]
    I nominate (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:59:48 PM EST
    you to be a spokesperson for HRC.

    Brilliant counselor, brilliant!

    [ Parent ]

    I'm with you. (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by AX10 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:00:14 PM EST
    I have had my candidate lose many times, only to come around to support the nominee.  However, the winner has always been gracious as have their supporters.
    This is not the case with Mr. Obama and his supporters.  They are playing nice now because they now that they cannot win without ALL of US on board with them.
    Well, this is one train I do not want to ride.
    Kos and Huffington as well as Schultz and Rhodes better understand this.

    [ Parent ]
    Please read the other comments too (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by nell on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:00:19 PM EST
    Please read the emails the author chose to highlight too...the comment I posted was someone who commented on the article, but the article itself it is a feature of emails this author got from Clinton supporters in response to an article he wrote about unifying the Dem party. We are not alone.

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/6gatvs

    [ Parent ]

    CLARIFICATION (none / 0) (#138)
    by nell on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:01:09 PM EST
    I DID NOT WRITE THIS, I JUST POSTED A COMMENT THAT I FOUND POSTED AT THIS ARTICLE THAT I THOUGHT WAS A PERFECT SUMMARY OF HOW I FEEL.

    [ Parent ]
    R-I-G-H-T O-N-!!!! (none / 0) (#140)
    by Raven15 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:01:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Inspirational (none / 0) (#195)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:30:08 PM EST
    Obama's got nothing on you!  OMG I am so onboard with this guy!!!!!

    [ Parent ]
    Read all the other comments at that link too (none / 0) (#198)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:33:10 PM EST
    Thanks for sharing, nell, and the other comments are really good too:

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/6gatvs

    [ Parent ]

    Thank You So Very Much! (none / 0) (#216)
    by aa incalif on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:15:51 PM EST
    The best article I've read on any site.  I'm still waiting to hear what we are going to change.  Maybe OB wants to change America to look like his Chicago District.

    You've said it all and said it best. Tell as many as you can.

    I'm the Angry Black Man!

    [ Parent ]

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:42 PM EST
    Vow to end the war on Day one of your administration, talk about how the American people are going to start seeing that money back here for the good of Americans, and pound home that McCain is perfectly happy for us to be foreign occupier and viceroy till next century (which, it should be clear, means McCain supports the complete economic destruction of America).  The war, the war, the war.  Unless it is over yesterday, there is no future.  

    OT Site Violater: Dadler n/t (none / 0) (#53)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I give a pass on tthat one (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:35:59 PM EST
    If you think about it, it can be seen as on topic, to wit why voters should vote for you.

    Plus Dadler has been here forever.

    [ Parent ]

    man, i'm starting to loathe coming here (5.00 / 4) (#102)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:45:24 PM EST
    This campaign season has turned TL into something just not that enjoyable for me.  I guess I'm not pro either candidate enough to get into this mess.  I empathize with both sides too much.  Could be the fact I'm a marshmallow white guy with blood relatives who are black.  And I can't help harping on the war, forgive me, but my little brother is shipping back to Iraq in a week, his third tour.  The anxiety, much of it going unspoken, it brings our family -- an already damaged unit to begin with -- is awful and immeasurable.

    [ Parent ]
    I know I know (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:47:14 PM EST
    2 weeks to go Dadler. Hang in there.

    [ Parent ]
    But, Hillary is going all the way (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:02:02 PM EST
    to the convention.  Hillary?  Are you listening?

    [ Parent ]
    my cousin is on his third tour in Iraq (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:52:13 PM EST
    got shot a couple of weeks ago (flesh wound; he's fine). I've got other family in Afghanistan and Germany.  I know where you're coming from.

    [ Parent ]