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How Not To Win Over Voters

First step, blame them for not voting for you. Here is a prime example of why Democrats lose white working class voters, this headline -- Appalachia's Last Chance to Show It Doesn't Have an Obama Problem.

Yes, tell voters they have a problem when they do not vote for you. Heck of a general election plan. When candidates and/or their supporters are blaming the voters, you know you have a problem.

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    the comments are lovely--the unity pony gallops (5.00 / 7) (#1)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:16:30 PM EST


    Here is a perfect one. (5.00 / 5) (#40)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:53 PM EST
    The commenter comes right out with it, no code words, no dog whistles, no subtlety, no nuance.

    DK comment link.

    [You were warned.]

    Parent
    I bet he was pretty proud of himself (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:18 PM EST
    for writing that.  Smacking his lips in smug self-satisfaction.

    I know the people of WV - they'd quickly bring a darned fool like that down to size.

    Parent

    My WV friend (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:43:13 PM EST
    told me what would happen if Rev Phelps ever came back to protest another funeral in WV.  I believed him.  They take care of their own and they do not like meddling outsiders, especially blatantly disrespectful ones.

    Parent
    It can't possibly be that they simply prefer (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:16:35 PM EST
    Hillary, as did voters in states such as TX, CA, OH, MA, etc...

    California is obviously (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by Evie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:38 PM EST
    the Appalachia of the West.

    Parent
    And MA the Appalachia of the East! n/t (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:32:20 PM EST
    and TX the Appalachia of the South West (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by ding7777 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:31 PM EST
    And the Appalachia of the North (none / 0) (#131)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:59:02 PM EST
    will be Wisconsin, with the way that the polls are going for McCain. . . .

    Parent
    along with Nevada (none / 0) (#93)
    by ding7777 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:42:09 PM EST
    I am an Appalachian! (5.00 / 16) (#3)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:16:38 PM EST
    because I have an Obama problem, too.

    C'mon, let's play "I am Spartacus" on DHinMi.  What an idjit throughout this campaign, most memorably in the infamous front-page meltdown on That Site That Shall Not Be Named.  (I.e., warning to others wishing to avoid TSTSNN not to click on the link.)

    good belly laugh - thank you! (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:18:16 PM EST
    I am an Appalachian! (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by liminal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:25:21 PM EST
    ...and to be fair, it's actually true.  I'm also a Knight of the Golden Horseshoe.

    That said, I welcome all y'all, and offer you a delicious Tudor's biscuit to welcome you to the club.  Also, a pepperoni roll.  And a mint julip.  

    Parent

    Oh goodness... (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:35:19 PM EST
    I miss a good pepperoni roll.

    Parent
    So how's the racism in Appalachia? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:38:25 PM EST
    We certainly have it here in Southern Cal, though in a much more subtle and closeted form, though that hasn't stopped me from hearing "n*gger" more than a few times, and not from Chris Rock at the Comedy Store.  

    Parent
    It's the same as it is anywhere (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:54:32 PM EST
    Racists exist here but this idea that Clinton wins because of it is absurd. Most of the folks I know who voted for Clinton(disclosure: I voted Edwards) did so because they felt she was more experienced and I am outraged on their behalf that their support for Clinton be reduced to charges of racism.

    Parent
    I'm not sure that the point of your comment (5.00 / 6) (#160)
    by liminal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:07:38 PM EST
    might be.  Yeah, absolutely, there is racism in Appalachia.  But that doesn't mean that all Appalachians are racist, or that racism is the prime mover behind HRC's big wins in the region.  Moreover, if say, the netroots were actually concerned about issues like poverty and race in this country, and especially in impoverished areas like rural Kentucky or West Virginia, there would be fewer front-page accusations of virulent racism in favor of deeper and more thoughtful examinations of the legacy of racism and poverty, or the importance of supporting rural economies, or income disparity or access to healthcare or labor history or or or or or the importance, actually, of asking people in person for their votes in a way that respects their strengths and their flaws and their citizenship in this great country.  

    I suspect, actually, that the, uh, constant barrage of assertions that Appalachians are unrelentingly racist has only served to uhm, make things worse rather than better.  

    Parent

    We are all Appalachians (5.00 / 9) (#45)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:06 PM EST
    in the spirit of JFK's "We are all Berliners"

    I stand with Appalachia - indeed, my mom is from there - in saying, we choose who we want to choose, and if you have a problem with it, that's YOUR problem.

    Parent

    Sad state where you have to quote Repubs (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:56 PM EST
    but there's a YouTube where Tucker Carlson and Pat Buchanan defend West Virginians from people like the Kos crowd... how not to win over voters, indeed.

    http://www.youtube.com/v/In_4u4OgSGo&hl=en

    Parent

    Remember the Redneck Army- (5.00 / 5) (#149)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:04:26 PM EST
    The coal miners, black and white, took on the coal companies and the National Guard for the right to organize back in the '20's. Many died for the cause.

    Parent
    The History Channel (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by liminal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:09:22 PM EST
    Was showing some program about hillbillies, narrated by Billy Ray Cyrus when I got home last night.  They had a half-hour about Sid Hatfield, the Baldwin-Felts, the Red Neck Army and the Battle of Blair Mountain.

    Parent
    Plugged that History Channel special (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:55:58 PM EST
    elsewhere -- saw some of it last night, too, and it will run again.  It's at least an hour long, and I especially was enamored of the history of the early years that explains the cussedness (my WV relatives' term) of your lovely area of the country.  Last week's primary had me pining to go back to WV.

    That and the thought of a pepperoni roll from this little corner of a place in Fairmont.  Mmmmmmmm.

    Parent

    I selflessly offer to replenish KY with liberals (5.00 / 3) (#197)
    by Ellie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:30:54 PM EST
    ... by mating like crazy with Kentucky's long lost favorite liberal son.

    No, please ... stand back ladies ... it's my pleasure to take this for the team.

    Parent

    Maybe that's they're plan..write such (none / 0) (#59)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:32:54 PM EST
    ridiculous diaries that everyone calls them out and provides a link to the stupidity.  That brings up their hits for the day!

    Parent
    You have to laugh! (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:17:12 PM EST
    DHinMI probably has some delusion that he or she is revealing some great truth.  The sense of self-importance of some of these people is overwhelming.  I think in a previous post by BTD Andgarden explained quite well why Obama does not win Appalachia;  rocky/icarus...

    You really don't need much else.

    I'll ask again (5.00 / 13) (#5)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:17:19 PM EST
    what makes you think that Obama is going to work to get these voters back?   Other than his talk about "unity," what has he done to actually achieve it?

    This is not the first time that Obama's voter problems have been blamed on others.  Obama himself constantly shifts blame, whether it's his staff erroneously filling out a form, or bitter clingers who are voting against their better interests.

    I just don't see anything Obama has done in the last six months that can be pointed to as evidence that he will work to bring the party together.  This is disastrous.

    Thank God Clinton is still in it to win.  Rise, Hillary, Rise!

    Kathy, Kathy, Kathy, (5.00 / 7) (#33)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:26:21 PM EST
    One cannot just talk to the ignorant class of the democratic party.  You have to establish and set perimeters first.

    We reserve sitting down and talking for our enemies in other countries.

    Parent

    Obama (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:18 PM EST
    is using the standard playbook for losing dems: jack up the vote in the city and hope for the best in the rest of the state. We've seen this movie before most recently in 2004. I have no desire to see it again.

    Parent
    Question (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:57:20 PM EST
    Hi, I'm new here...

    But I'd like to expand on a few things you said with which I don't exactly agree.

    "This is not the first time that Obama's voter problems have been blamed on others.  Obama himself constantly shifts blame, whether it's his staff erroneously filling out a form, or bitter clingers who are voting against their better interests."

    My biggest problem here (and even with the thread topic) is that dumb comments that one supporter (DHinMI) makes are attributed to the candidate themselves.  I really do not believe that either candidate agrees with most of what their supporters say.

    I could probably just as easily cherry-pick statements made from Hillary supporters in the opposite manner- but she is still an amazing candidate, and I doubt she would agree with everything her supporters say.

    So first off I think we should establish that Obama is not blaming anybody here himself, and I very much doubt he would agree with what one (insignificant) supporter is claiming.

    Secondly- the "bitter" comment that some people are still bitter about ;) was not at all directed towards the current election cycle.  It was in reference to Republicans exploiting wedge issues to win in prior elections against Democrats.  So I really don't understand how you attribute that as him blaming people for his troubles winning certain demographics.  Or at least this is how I  understood it- if you'd like to discuss it further maybe you can help me see your point of view on the matter.

    "I just don't see anything Obama has done in the last six months that can be pointed to as evidence that he will work to bring the party together.  This is disastrous."

    Similarly I don't see how Obama has worked to drive the party apart (or similarly, what Hillary has done to bring the party together).  What is driving the party apart are the devoted followers of both candidates.

    I personally will vote for whoever the democratic nominee is in November, because I believe both of them will work to better our country in a manner consistent with Democratic ideals.  In my opinion, the only people who are driving the party apart are those that claim they won't vote for the Democratic candidate in November if it isn't their candidate.  But if you disagree, I'd like to know why.


    Parent

    I understand what you are saying (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:22:15 PM EST
    howver when you have Brazile on national TV declaring that they don't need working class whites and Daschle on TV declaring he vote for the GOP anyway, you can't relegate the problem to one or two Obama supporters.

    That said, I recc'd your coment because the tone was one that is welcome.

    Parent

    I'd agree (none / 0) (#206)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:58:51 PM EST
    That it isn't just one or two Obama supporters.  And I really can't justify what Brazile says on national TV.  At the same time, I feel like it is almost the media's job to create controversy.  They want ratings, which is probably why they keep Brazile around.  I'd really prefer that she wasn't there- but unfortunately I can't do much about it :(

    So while there are a number of people out there who are fanatical about their candidate, I'd prefer not to judge either candidate themselves for comments that they didn't have control over.  I mean, if a candidate really was so authoritarian that they could control all of the talking points their supporters used, would you really want to vote for them?

    (Also I'm unfamiliar with what exactly Daschle said- maybe you could point me towards a link?)

    Parent

    Hi newcomer (5.00 / 3) (#200)
    by tree on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:44:06 PM EST
    For a link on Obama blaming his staffers repeatedly during this campaign see here

    And you have it wrong on what Obama was saying in SF about rural voters. He was NOT referring to previous campaigns or to Republicans. He was asked why he wasn't doing well against Clinton in small town PA in the upcoming primary. He was explaining why they were supporting her and not him. It had nothing to do with earlier elections or Republicans. It was an answer to a question about why he was doing so poorly with rural Democrats.

    Parent

    Also... (5.00 / 3) (#203)
    by tree on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:53:51 PM EST
    Here's a link to Obama's quote:

    "I am confident I will get her votes if I'm the nominee," Obama stressed. "It's not clear she would get the votes I got if she were the nominee."
    2/01/2008

    Hillary has consistently said she would support and campaign for whoever is the Democratic nominee, and has even told supporters at her rallies and events that it would be a mistake for them to support McCain over Obama. Obama has said no such equivalent statement. He's used gestures like brushing off his shoulders to dismiss her, and gestured that she had stuck a knife in him and twisted it, in front of thousands of laughing fans. He does nothing to stop his supporters from booing when her name is mentioned. He's been silent in the face of nasty comments about her from his surrogates and high level supporters. He doesn't seem to have the slightest concept of what it takes to unify.

    Parent

    This explanation (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by kayla on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:53:43 PM EST
    keeps popping up here from Obama supporters.

    Secondly- the "bitter" comment that some people are still bitter about ;) was not at all directed towards the current election cycle.  It was in reference to Republicans exploiting wedge issues to win in prior elections against Democrats.  So I really don't understand how you attribute that as him blaming people for his troubles winning certain demographics.  Or at least this is how I  understood it- if you'd like to discuss it further maybe you can help me see your point of view on the matter.

    If you read and/or heard his full statement you would know that he was talking about this election and why white working class people were not voting for him, but instead voting for Hillary Clinton.  He wasn't talking about Republican vs. Democrat as Hillary is a Democrat.

    Parent

    Last Chance For Urban Voters To Prove (5.00 / 13) (#6)
    by lorelynn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:17:24 PM EST
    They Don't Have A "Hillary" Problem. Or a "women president" problem. Funny how we never see those headlines. Apparently, people only come up short on the evolution scale when they refuse to vote for Obama. Refusing to vote for a woman though is the very height of enlightenment.

    Here's a headline you'll love: (5.00 / 15) (#46)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:30 PM EST
    "Memo to Clinton: Please Don't Quit" -- from a black male columnist and editorial board member of the Kansas City Star, in that pseudo-Appalachian state of Missouri.

    I love these lines as much as the headline:

    Every girl needs you to go the distance. You have come too far to fold now. For every woman's and girl's sake, don't quit.

    Men and boys need to witness your perseverance, too, and know that the force of your will is in the hearts and minds of every female. Such drive, determination, duty and character have helped to make this country a superpower.

    Even though no woman has been president up to now, every woman has given endless amounts of sweat, blood and true grit to make this nation what it is today.

    There would be no America if women had folded under the strain of child birth or if women hadn't endured the misery of scratching out a living from the land, traveling across the vastness of our countryside. Women have been treated like chattel and second-class citizens, working in sweat shops, remaining in the shadows endlessly serving others and maintaining the home front while their sons come home from the wars.

    Still, women make only 77 cents for every dollar that men earn.

    Don't quit. Our men and boys need to see you go the distance.

    But do read it in its entirety.  It's great.

    Parent

    What a gracious letter (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:50:00 PM EST
    "Don't quit. Our men and boys need to see you go the distance."

    Parent
    I guess (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:18:12 PM EST
    this is standard issue. If Obama's the nominee and he loses in Nov. I guess this is what they will do. I guess it kind of stinks when the voters won't go along with your plans.

    Heh (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:18:22 PM EST
    The blatant use of "Appalachia" as a code word for racism is just disgusting.  Gee, do we really think they're all so stupid that they won't understand teh code?

    Isn't a given at DK likely Dem. voters (5.00 / 8) (#14)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:20:33 PM EST
    don't read all that well, probably don't have electricity at home, and most certainly don't have Internet access to DK.  

    Parent
    As has been demonstrated even by DH's map (5.00 / 8) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:21:28 PM EST
    Appalachia includes all of South Florida, MA, RI, etc.

    Parent
    Of course the famous Appalachian Latinos (5.00 / 17) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:25:42 PM EST
    Juan-Boy (5.00 / 26) (#39)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:52 PM EST
    Best.  Walton.  Evah.

    Parent
    LOL! (5.00 / 7) (#62)
    by Radiowalla on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:27 PM EST
    Best laugh of the week!

    Parent
    Buenos Noches, y'all! (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by janarchy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:48 PM EST
    Cubans are from Appalachia?? (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:16 PM EST
    Who knew?? Makes that embargo look even sillier now, doesn't it??

    Parent
    And parts of Michigan... (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:32 PM EST
    Can Texas join? n/t (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:43 PM EST
    Sure (5.00 / 6) (#129)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:58:26 PM EST
    Send me your address and I'll send you some dirt in the mail. That way you can have your very own excuse for why Obama doesn't do well there come GE time.

    Parent
    Thank you! (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:01:20 PM EST
    It feels so good to BELONG.

    Parent
    we were included in the group a long time (none / 0) (#218)
    by hellothere on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:23:18 PM EST
    ago. that western twang and cowboy boots was the final straw for the obama campaign. texas has a written part of the agreement to join as i recall where it could break into five states if the good citizens so wanted. now wouldn't that be special?

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 8) (#71)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:36:00 PM EST
    Those mountains extend all the way down to Oklahoma as well, it seems.

    This demonstrates why Obama's unfortunate San Francisco comments were not universally viewed as a gaffe.  So many liberals really do look down on working-class voters and the less educated and less "enlightened" regions of our country.  As a Midwesterner now living in NYC, I see it every day.

    Many liberals felt the "bitter" thing was a 100% faux controversy because gosh, what Obama said was so obviously true.  At least to them.

    Parent

    Here in NJ, part of the Appalachian Trail goes (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:36:00 PM EST
    through a tiny part of far northwestern NJ.

    Just sayin'.

    We are all Appalachians now.

    Parent

    well... (5.00 / 13) (#19)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:02 PM EST
    they can't use "water problem," as in, states that are located near large bodies of water, such at the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean, the Gulf of Mexico, and many of the Great Lakes (though not extending into Oregon).

    I mean--look at all the major states she has won that are near large bodies of water!  Throw in the Eerie Canal and it gets even, well, eerier!

    suggested NYT headline: Obama's Water Broke

    Parent

    double belly laugh on that one (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:24:02 PM EST
    "Eerie Canal" (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:38:12 PM EST
    just cracked me up.  I've seen it -- had to see such a historic thing, but it was dusk, and it has  become overgrown -- so it was sort of eerie.:-)

    This is right up there with that endemic typo on this site, "eek" for "eke."  (That one's for Oculus who also keeps a style guide at hand and also must freke at every "eek" for "eke" here.)

     

    Parent

    sigh (none / 0) (#105)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:46:46 PM EST
    You really get me.

    Parent
    When I went to Cooperstown last (none / 0) (#126)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:51 PM EST
    summer, I asked the waitperson at a local restaurant quite close to the Erie Canal if there were boat rides available on the canal.  She replied:  which canal?  I guess they don't sing: got a mule and her name is Sal in them thar part.  Surprising.  

    Parent
    It's such a shame (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:05:57 PM EST
    because the building of that canal brought water-resistant concrete into the modern world.  It gave so much, yet gets back so little.

    Oh, great Erie...we hardly knew ye!

    Parent

    It made New York "the Empire State" (none / 0) (#184)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:21:15 PM EST
    although a lot of people think that means New York is the empire.  Not so; that nickname arose to mean it became the commercial outlet for the Midwest -- the empire -- thanks to the Erie Canal.  

    Many of my state's settlers came west from NY via the Erie Canal to the Great Lakes, shortening the trip by many weeks compared to the overland route.  And then they raised the crops that made the Midwest the breadbasket of the world, sent back east to NY.  That made it the commercial center of the country.

    And they never were "bitter" or "clinging" when they came to the Midwest, nor are they now.:-)


    Parent

    it was a darn interesting show on the history (none / 0) (#220)
    by hellothere on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:24:50 PM EST
    channel or was it discovery one night.

    Parent
    OT but we used (none / 0) (#221)
    by isaac on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:29:14 PM EST
    to sing that song in grammar school, good times

    Parent
    The Holier-Than-Thou (5.00 / 9) (#10)
    by frankly0 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:19:28 PM EST
    wing of the Democratic Party strikes again.

    Sometimes I feel like the only reason some of these people even join the Democratic Party is because it allows them to hold themselves as superior to other people.

    And I wonder if this isn't what has drawn such an unattractive crowd to Obama, who, himself, seems more deficient than any politician I can think of in the ability to convey empathy or warmth or even basic concern about the human beings who stand at the other end of his grand sounding speeches.

    BTW (5.00 / 9) (#88)
    by frankly0 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:30 PM EST
    does anybody remember the outrage that the Obama camp - most especially its fanboy bloggers at DailyKos and Josh Marshall -- could not stop hectoring Hillary supporters about, over the supposed dismissiveness of Hillary's campaign to smaller states? Remember their outsize anger over the alleged disparaging of the voters of those states (even though the only point the Hillary camp was making was that those states meant little or nothing to winning the electoral college)?

    Now we see twits like this guy at DKos trashing the voters across an entire region as being essentially ignorant racists.

    Sometimes I think that there is a sizable group of people, of which these Obama supporters are paradigm examples, who simply are immensely comfortable with their own hypocrisy. It doesn't shame them or embarrass them or in any way induce in them a sense of unease. They turn on a dime, and will do today the exact thing that yesterday they were decrying in others in tones of high moral dungeon. And both today and yesterday, they are every bit convinced of their own superiority in what they are doing and advocating.

    Parent

    frankly0 (none / 0) (#25)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:23:03 PM EST
    You just need to "hope" a little more..then you'll feel it.

    Parent
    Ah, the SUPERIOR wing of the party... (none / 0) (#34)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:27:00 PM EST
    which plays into my "water problem" theory for Obama.  All of the states bordering Lake SUPERIOR are golden for him.  (It is assumed, of course, that when MI is seated, Obama will get all of the delegates)

    Parent
    That's okay, it's only the Yoopers (none / 0) (#90)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:44 PM EST
    of Michigan that border Lake Superior.  They wouldn't mind reverting back to not being part of the state with the rest of 'em they call trolls (because they're "under" the Mackinac Bridge:-).

    Parent
    I thought the Great Lakes were in Oregon now? (none / 0) (#211)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:10:41 PM EST
    i think that writer (5.00 / 11) (#12)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:20:32 PM EST
    should be more concerned with the problems of daily kos than with the "problems" with appalachia...

    Don't you love his last line.... (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:59 PM EST
    "Clinton will win Kentucky.  But as we've known since February Barack Obama will be the Democratic nominee for President."

    Excuse me?  Maybe the fix was in more than I suspected...all the way back to February.  

    Parent

    I ran into another Obama (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:39 PM EST
    supporting professor yesterday. He made a snide remark about Hillary getting her last hurrah in Ky, or something like that. If Obama is the nominee, I think I will tell all these people I am donating the maximum to McCain. Of course, I'm too cheap to do that, in reality.

    Parent
    Do you see that article (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:39:04 PM EST
    that Cream City posted?

    Go get it. Print it out. Tack it to that prof's door.

    He should know better.

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#79)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:59 PM EST
    tell them that, but be sure to vote for obama, despite his supporters!

    Parent
    Well, he spoke bizarrely and (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:44:48 PM EST
    derisively of Hillary's populist appeals. I said I was happy to see her running a more populist campaign, and he said he likes it too.
    I think he is just another person who feels its more cool to support Obama.


    Parent
    Ahhhh, no can do, Turkana. (none / 0) (#182)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:21:07 PM EST
    Not just any writer - but DHinMI (5.00 / 6) (#83)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:39:13 PM EST
    DHinMI has been writing front paged drek for months now.  He was the first FPer that I thought should be fired.

    Parent
    heh (5.00 / 8) (#103)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:45:34 PM EST
    i was one of a group that had some run-ins with him and his sycophants, just over a year ago, then abided by a truce brokered by mcjoan. i'm a huge fan of mcjoan! so, i stayed out of his way, tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and noticed how many people who had nothing to do with that one particular group or series of incidents also had problems with him. it seems a constant, with him. i've even seen other admins (respected ones) publicly tell him to back off. but he and markos are close, apparently, and the tone he helps set at dk is apparently okay with markos, who is all about quantity of hits rather than quality of writing and atmosphere.

    Parent
    It's been said before, but... (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by rghojai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:12:07 PM EST
    ...some people, now ex-Kossacks, saw this coming long before February. Among the upsides of search capabilities: While anyone can say anything, it's easy to see if a person or people have been reasonable, aren't fervently backing a candidate, if they've even picked a candidate. Clearly, a not-trivial number of reasonable Kossacks--some of whom were/are prominent--had real concerns about where things seemed to be going, tried to engage Kos.

    I avoided run-ins with people there because it felt like spitting in the wind, but felt like enough of a community member that it was appropriate to add my voice to those expressing concerns about what was going on in the community. I had my say, nothing changed except for it getting worse so I chose to leave.

    Whatever motivated the powers that be, mighty hard to see how, as turkana said, quality of writing and atmosphere were among the motivations.

    Parent

    Can't we just (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:20:33 PM EST
    Let them keep doing what they're doing?

    I just hope that getting called irredeemable (5.00 / 14) (#16)
    by tigercourse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:21:23 PM EST
    racists day in and day out for the next 5 off months doesn't have any kind of adverse effect on the voters.

    Trying to argue a point earlier (5.00 / 7) (#18)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:21:37 PM EST
    that making people feel good is one way to win their votes.  (How one does that wasn't part of my argument.)

    Equally obvious is that making people feel BAD is one way to lose their votes.

    I keep wondering why this seems to hard to grasp.  Uplifting emotional rhetoric or addressing issues that people care about are ways to make people "feel good".

    Insulting their social group, gender, economic class are ways to make people "feel bad".

    This should be second, no first nature to a politician.

    Hill Raiser (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:19 PM EST
    Stop commenting. They all disappear.

    As soon as J comes back from celebrating her son;s swearing in you will be gone.

    Thanks (2.00 / 0) (#35)
    by CST on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:27:03 PM EST
    People like that give the rest of us a bad name.

    Parent
    Next person to respond to Hill Raiser (1.00 / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:29:48 PM EST
    will be banned.

    Parent
    Please Don't Ban Me (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:06 PM EST
    I just responded to Hill Raiser on another thread before I saw this.

    Parent
    Sorry! (none / 0) (#47)
    by CST on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:33 PM EST
    Just trying to help...

    Parent
    And they call *us* low-information voters? (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:26 PM EST


    When identity politics are not involved many (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by nycvoter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:29 PM EST
    people simply pick the better candidate, or the candidate they connect with better.  That candidate is Hillary Clinton, not Barak Obama.

    Please warn us before sending us to Daily Kos, I don't like to give them traffice

    Helpful hint (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by tree on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:36 PM EST
    Hover your arrow over the link but don't click. Look at the bottom of the screen. It will display the link source(i.e., dailykos, or other). It helps me to decide whether to click or not.

    Parent
    Thanks for the "Hint" (none / 0) (#159)
    by delandjim on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:07:31 PM EST
    I had clicked the link before reading this. Oh well.

    Parent
    I deeply resent TeamObama's presumptions (5.00 / 7) (#124)
    by Ellie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:22 PM EST
    Slamming supporters of other candidates as racists is offensive beyond description. This isn't 'equal' to Sen Clinton's criticism of coverage of herself and her campaign by media, where she cites specifics.

    She does NOT criticize African American voters for racism or lemming-behavior -- or any other trope -- for supporting Obama.

    Meanwhile, Obama is baldly and routinely dismissive, sexist and insulting as a way a fomenting media "just us guys here" misogyny. Clinton is throwing china at him?

    She's Annie Oakley with her lil'pistols? Let the lady fight her lil'fight? She's spring training to him ... a good workout before the REAL fight between REAL men/candidates in the GE. (Obama defenders and troll paTrolls: use tags and catch up as these references are all linked to recorded events and statements. I won't do your homework for you.)

    The biggest insult is that Obama has so many NEW voters that he doesn't need us "old" Dem voters. WTF?

    I'm younger, more liberal, more involved in progressive causes than RW-embracing fauxgressive Obama and his new and wheezing self flattering older supporters are.

    So my message to them is: go ahead and do it, and don't whine that I'm not on board with an agenda that I didn't sign on for.

    (And don't expect to blame me or pick up your sh!t when this joy ride flames out.)

    Parent

    Seems like people are fed up with voter bashing (5.00 / 28) (#26)
    by nell on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:23:32 PM EST
    This comment is at, "Clinton Supporters in Their Own Words," and I really liked it and wanted to share it here (link to article: http://preview.tinyurl.com/6gatvs)

    Boycotting Obama Will Lead to Famine, Armaggeddon, Government-Controlled Uteruses, and other Scare Tactics

    A lot of desperate Democrats are suddenly scrambling to "unify" with Clinton's supporters, now that they realize that their snowjob of an election will lead to an Obama boycott in November. The classic line says that we need to avoid letting emotions interfere with judgment and to think about "the issues." Well, here's my answer (disclaimer: I do not have a uterus).

    First of all, I do not need to clear my head and take a deep breath. I am a lifetime Democrat, and I have been voting for Democrats since the mid-80s. I am very experienced having my candidate lose, but then moving on to support the party ticket. In past primaries, for example, I voted for Dean, Bradley, and Jesse Jackson (twice!). I get the idea of party unity....Next.

    Second, my vote represents more than just support for a set of standard liberal issues. It also protests liberal hypocrisy. The party espouses an equality rhetoric but has undermined it during this election. The party has bashed poor white people, as if they are responsible for the racially segregated nature of corporate America, U.S imperialism, and the exploitation of vulnerable consumers. The party has ignored Latino voters because recognizing them challenges the "only racists vote for Clinton script." The party has invented claims of racial injustice to demonize the Clintons. The party has ridiculed "uneducated" voters, even though Democrats supposedly represent disadvantaged people. Male party members and liberal media have constantly called for Clinton to drop out -- starting after Iowa -- in order to place an aura of doubt around her campaign. The party has completely ignored or even denied the sexist treatment of Clinton, while responding with absolute venom to any real or imagined "racism" directed towards Obama. The party has allowed Obama to wear multiple racial hats -- the nonracial black man, the just black enough to be an historic black president, and the black racial victim - to secure votes. But if Clinton deviates even slightly from a prior script, she is portrayed as a horrible witch who would do "anything to get elected." I refuse to join this madness.

    Third, I am unmoved by the pro-Obama scare tactics ("what about Roe, the war, health care, etc.). These are just Karl Rovian "red alerts." Obama is not entitled to our votes. Whatever loyalty the party had from me prior to this election has been depleted. Earlier on when we wanted to discuss progressive issues, the Obama camp and the media silenced our efforts and instead focused on the big rock star pep rallies, Obamania, Camelot, weeping college students, and a host of other unimportant concerns. They told us that we and Clinton were cold and unhopeful, that Clinton was a mere "policy wonk," while Obama made people "feel good again." Suddenly, you want to talk about the issues because it benefits Obama. That's way too unprincipled for me.

    Clearly the party leadership has determined that anytime Obama looks weak, the "boys" will endorse him or call for Clinton to leave because she is "hurting the party" and "kneecapping" the "first viable black presidential candidate." Well, party leadership and media, you made these rules; suffer the consequences. To paraphrase Obama, don't tell me my disgust with your behavior doesn't matter. Don't tell me sexism doesn't matter. Don't tell me liberal hypocrisy doesn't matter. Don't tell me I must vote for Obama in order to be a "real" Democrat. If being a real Democrat means bashing women, the poor, and the elderly, manipulating race, ignoring Latinos, and stifling dissent, then I respectfully resign my membership! Achieving justice requires sacrifice, brutal honesty, and passionate commitment. I will not "endorse anything to get a Democrat elected," and neither should you.

    -- A Black Male Civil Rights Attorney

    Posted by: Tony Smith | May 20, 2008 12:50 PM

    I couldn't (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:37 PM EST
    have said it any better.  I might add some more, but  ... excellent article

    Parent
    Beautiful. n/t (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:14 PM EST
    Best post of the day (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Buckeye on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:36:34 PM EST
    Wish I had some sort of zapper that (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:45:38 PM EST
    allowed me to superimpose this over news coverage this evening.

    Parent
    I love this. (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:55:56 PM EST
    I'm printing it up & sending it to the DNC. It embodies everything I've been trying to say much better then I've been saying it.

    Parent
    Now (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:17 PM EST
    THAT'S a democrat!

    Parent
    I nominate (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:59:48 PM EST
    you to be a spokesperson for HRC.

    Brilliant counselor, brilliant!

    Parent

    I'm with you. (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by AX10 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:00:14 PM EST
    I have had my candidate lose many times, only to come around to support the nominee.  However, the winner has always been gracious as have their supporters.
    This is not the case with Mr. Obama and his supporters.  They are playing nice now because they now that they cannot win without ALL of US on board with them.
    Well, this is one train I do not want to ride.
    Kos and Huffington as well as Schultz and Rhodes better understand this.

    Parent
    Please read the other comments too (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by nell on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:00:19 PM EST
    Please read the emails the author chose to highlight too...the comment I posted was someone who commented on the article, but the article itself it is a feature of emails this author got from Clinton supporters in response to an article he wrote about unifying the Dem party. We are not alone.

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/6gatvs

    Parent

    CLARIFICATION (none / 0) (#138)
    by nell on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:01:09 PM EST
    I DID NOT WRITE THIS, I JUST POSTED A COMMENT THAT I FOUND POSTED AT THIS ARTICLE THAT I THOUGHT WAS A PERFECT SUMMARY OF HOW I FEEL.

    Parent
    R-I-G-H-T O-N-!!!! (none / 0) (#140)
    by Raven15 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:01:20 PM EST
    Inspirational (none / 0) (#195)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:30:08 PM EST
    Obama's got nothing on you!  OMG I am so onboard with this guy!!!!!

    Parent
    Read all the other comments at that link too (none / 0) (#198)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:33:10 PM EST
    Thanks for sharing, nell, and the other comments are really good too:

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/6gatvs

    Parent

    Thank You So Very Much! (none / 0) (#216)
    by aa incalif on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:15:51 PM EST
    The best article I've read on any site.  I'm still waiting to hear what we are going to change.  Maybe OB wants to change America to look like his Chicago District.

    You've said it all and said it best. Tell as many as you can.

    I'm the Angry Black Man!

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:42 PM EST
    Vow to end the war on Day one of your administration, talk about how the American people are going to start seeing that money back here for the good of Americans, and pound home that McCain is perfectly happy for us to be foreign occupier and viceroy till next century (which, it should be clear, means McCain supports the complete economic destruction of America).  The war, the war, the war.  Unless it is over yesterday, there is no future.  

    If this is OT please delete (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:30:00 PM EST
    FOX NEWS Exit Poll for General Election Matchup:

    Clinton v McCain

    77% Democrats would vote Clinton
    16% Vote McCain
    5% Stay Home

    Obama v McCain

    50% Democrats would vote Obama
    32% Vote McCain
    15% Stay Home

    That's fine (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:00 PM EST
    I am not going to spend much time on the exits polls until they come out.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#57)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:59 PM EST
    They are just starting to be talked about on Fox, The Page and CNN.

    Parent
    I'm counting on you guys :) (none / 0) (#76)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:31 PM EST
    Tonight it will be the second primary night (after Indiana and NC) not watching the MSM.  

    Parent
    No MSNBC for me today. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:39:36 PM EST
    I promised myself to stay on fox..or food network.

    Parent
    Smart move on your part (none / 0) (#199)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:36:51 PM EST
    WTF has happened to MSNBC.  I had to turn off the tv, which is sad because I've truly grown to love Joe Scarborough.  Unfortunately, Chris Matthews and Bob Shrum were memorializing Ted Kennedy (HELLO, he's still alive) and Chris Matthews said that Ted had 'passed the Kennedy baton' to Barack Obama.  

    ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME????  What happened to journalistic integrity?  I'm tuning in for election coverage, not to hear your crazy raving about how much you heart Obama.  Morons.  

    Parent

    Oops...for KY only (none / 0) (#51)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:01 PM EST
    that is about the dumbest thing (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:57 PM EST
    I have ever heard.
    since when and in what universe do voters have to prove anything to anyone?


    silly me (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:32:55 PM EST
    I thought it was the candidate who was in the position of proving themselves.


    Parent
    Fox on KY Exits (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:33 PM EST
    WHITE WOMEN 73% HRC
    WHITE NO COLLEGE 74% HRC
    EXPERIENCE VOTERS 92% HRC
    CHURCHGOERS 65% HRC


    Omigod! (5.00 / 9) (#78)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:55 PM EST
    Clinton got 304% of the vote!!!!  WE LOVE YOU, KENTUCKY!!!

    Even KUSA, in their brash exuberance, never predicted such a rout.

    Rise, Hillary, Rise!!!

    Parent

    304% of the vote? (5.00 / 6) (#100)
    by frankly0 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:44:14 PM EST
    I didn't even think that was possible outside of Chicago...

    Parent
    I'm kinda (none / 0) (#87)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:22 PM EST
    shocked at the % of women voters she is pulling against Obama. I guess I shouldn't be.

    Parent
    remember (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:41:18 PM EST
    they are low information hick women

    Parent
    True enough... (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:42:17 PM EST
    but what about this:

    FOX News just stated from Early Exit Polls:

    Just 33% of those casting a vote for Hillary will vote for Obama in the General.

    Just 50% of All Democrat Votes cast today will vote for Obama in the General.


    Parent

    that is just scary (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:43:00 PM EST
    Pundits (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:49:19 PM EST
    are already giving out the 'more the people get to know him, the more they like him' meme.  I wonder if that's why he didn't campaign much in WV and KY.  Plausible deniability.

    Paul Begala: People aren't rejecting Barack Obama.  They like Hillary Clinton.

    Parent

    Well, people ARE rejecting Obama, but (5.00 / 7) (#116)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:53:04 PM EST
    they also really do like Hillary.

    Parent
    it's been just the opposite for me (none / 0) (#205)
    by Iris on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:58:04 PM EST
    The more I get to know Obama, the more I don't want him anywhere near the Oval Office.

    Parent
    Funniest number was (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by stillife on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:10:29 PM EST
    45% of KY voters who said the Edwards endorsement affected their decision - but out of those, only half voted for Obama!

    Parent
    I give a pass on tthat one (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:35:59 PM EST
    If you think about it, it can be seen as on topic, to wit why voters should vote for you.

    Plus Dadler has been here forever.

    man, i'm starting to loathe coming here (5.00 / 4) (#102)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:45:24 PM EST
    This campaign season has turned TL into something just not that enjoyable for me.  I guess I'm not pro either candidate enough to get into this mess.  I empathize with both sides too much.  Could be the fact I'm a marshmallow white guy with blood relatives who are black.  And I can't help harping on the war, forgive me, but my little brother is shipping back to Iraq in a week, his third tour.  The anxiety, much of it going unspoken, it brings our family -- an already damaged unit to begin with -- is awful and immeasurable.

    Parent
    I know I know (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:47:14 PM EST
    2 weeks to go Dadler. Hang in there.

    Parent
    But, Hillary is going all the way (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:02:02 PM EST
    to the convention.  Hillary?  Are you listening?

    Parent
    my cousin is on his third tour in Iraq (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:52:13 PM EST
    got shot a couple of weeks ago (flesh wound; he's fine). I've got other family in Afghanistan and Germany.  I know where you're coming from.

    Parent
    I wish your cousin well (5.00 / 7) (#130)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:58:46 PM EST
    I wish everyone well.  I think I'm taking a TL vacation until this is over.

    Peace to everyone, on every side.  It's all one side of the same human coin anyway.

    Parent

    Be well Dadler.... (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by kdog on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:21:21 PM EST
    and good luck to you and yours man.  Though I hope you reconsider and I see you around.  

    We're not the only ones hoping this long cruel joke of an election ends soon.

    Parent

    Memo to self: Be good to Dadler (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:02:56 PM EST
    as our relative is back from Iraq now.  But if she had to go back, I'd be focused back on the war to the exclusion of all else for a while, too.

    I'm hoping the best for your family, Dadler.  I remember when the draft lottery was coming, and most of my six brothers were eligible.  For any of us with folks in the armed forces, it's a lottery now, I know.  And if it was one of my little brothers. . . .

    Parent

    The war sux. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:58:11 PM EST
    That won't change anytime soon.  My best guess was that even with a D as POTUS, 2 years is the best we can do.

    There's just too much to deal with alone and getting regional allies to sign on will take a LOT of work and time.

    Out. Now.  sounds good but all I see if that happens is a destabilized region which suffers a major collapse within a decade that even the American Military can't put together again.

    Why didn't we impeach Bush and Cheney when we had the chance?  Those responsible SHOULD be punished for this, not the Iraqis and the military.

    It's unjust and I can't fix that.  The good news is that it won't happen again soon because we just can't afford it.

    Parent

    It would end next month (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:06:09 PM EST
    If we, the American people, really wanted it to be.  The Iraqi people are perfectly capable of forging their own history.  Unfortunately, we don't think so.  We think, in some deluded haze, that if we leave, well, things will get REALLY bloody, as if the Iraqis could somehow inflict more damage on themselves than we have with all of our bombs and planes and guided missles and daisy cutters and drones, and on and on.  We are the most heavily and modernly equipped killing machine in the history of warfare, and we let polticians convince us that if we leave, somehow the comparatively bare-handed locals will do even "better" than we have.   Eisenhower was right, and we have been brainwashed by the military industrial complex LIFESTYLE we've all been enjoying for half a century-plus.

    We simply don't think it's the number one priority.  How?  I have no idea.

    Okay, so now I'm on TL vacation for real.

    Parent

    Hope we see you back here soon (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:20:38 PM EST
    And you are right. If we wanted an end to this war, we would be marching in the streets, not spending our free time watching American Idol. We can complain about Congress or the Bush administration not ending it, but I truly believe that if enough people stood up, camped out on the Mall, withheld our taxes -- in short, did something that involved a sacrifice on our part to show that we were serious -- we could not be ignored.

    Parent
    Last words before TL vacation: (none / 0) (#168)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:11:38 PM EST
    GO LAKERS!!!!!

    Parent
    Oh man (none / 0) (#186)
    by CST on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:21:55 PM EST
    I have been reading your posts and rating them 5, since I really appreciate your point of view.  But I gotta say:

    Go Celtics!!!!!

    On a more serious note, I am definitely praying for your brother.  And you're right, the war needed ending years ago not 2 years from now, not 4 years from now.  

    Parent

    Boo! (none / 0) (#188)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:25:13 PM EST
    The Pistons are the One True Way.

    Anyone who cheers for the Celtics probably roots for the house in blackjack.

    Parent

    And Wings! (none / 0) (#192)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:27:51 PM EST
    I hope your brother (none / 0) (#165)
    by standingup on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:10:38 PM EST
    returns home safely and this is his last tour of duty in Iraq.  I can't imagine how I would handle having a family member there myself.  

    There has been a new incarnation of trolls the last few days that have been more divisive and condescending than any I have seen to date.  There are the regular Obama supporters that post here but some of the new commenters really seem more like Republicans taking advantage of the current tension to create a deeper divide between Clinton and Obama supporters.  No excuse but certainly part of the reason for the short fuses we are seeing with people.  

    Parent

    Bless you Dadler. I will be thinking of your (none / 0) (#171)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:14:58 PM EST
    brother. May he come home safe to you. My nephew returns in mid-July from his fourth tour. I hope this is the last time your brother has to go there.

    Parent
    I know. (none / 0) (#91)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:41:06 PM EST
    Dadler is just stuck on one freaking topic.

    You da not-quite-boss though.
    I defer.

    Parent

    So Appalachia (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:39:32 PM EST
    has to woo Obama?  They should kiss his ring?  This is the whole Messianic thing all over again, just wrapped up in a new package.

    Only 33% of Clinton voters would vote for O (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by nycstray on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:43:06 PM EST
    71% of Obama voters would vote for Clinton.

    OOPS! Houston, we have a problem here . . .

    Your Conclusion? (none / 0) (#145)
    by Spike on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:03:00 PM EST
    It sounds like Obama voters in KY are more loyal to the Democratic Party than Clinton voters. Are Clinton voters closet Republicans?

    Parent
    My conclusion (5.00 / 8) (#150)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:05:39 PM EST
    is that Obama has offended some voters beyond his ability to unite them in the fall.

    Parent
    Repeatedly. (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:15:20 PM EST
    I think the message has been hammered home state by state, election by election, pundit by pundit, delegate by delegate.

    They've been quite consistent too.  It's not a matter misinterpreting a single remark one person said.  It's an entire Greek chorus.

    Parent

    No, they are Democrats (5.00 / 6) (#157)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:06:29 PM EST
    who want someone who isn't afraid to be a Liberal, a Progressive, a Democrat and doesn't need to pretend he is his own brand and the supreme leader of his own party.

    Parent
    Obama has a voter problem and a democracy problem (5.00 / 6) (#170)
    by Ellie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:14:41 PM EST
    He's spent months dismissing huge voterships, groups of society, and supporters of the Democratic party.

    Now it's starting to sink in that he's slated to head the most expensive landslide general election loss in history.

    His supporters are resorting to bullying, guilting, whining, shaming and pre-blaming everyone but the man most responsible: Obama himself.

    Deal with it. His loss of support has been his own fault. He doesn't have the money nor the trendy, unproven alleged "new" supporters to make up the shortfall.

    He repelled us. He needs to convince us he hasn't been as huge an imperious jackwad as our lying eyes and ears have witnessed FOR MONTHS.

    Parent

    Hey (5.00 / 3) (#194)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:30:02 PM EST
    we're building a religion.  Enjoy the beautiful pendant key chain.

    Someone commented today (on another blog) that it will be all Clinton's fault if Obama loses in November and she should expect to be primaried if that happens.  Winning hearts and minds everywhere, aren't they?  Another commenter said that Obama has a plan and when it's time, he'll sweet talk us and win us over, especially the women because we just want attention.

    Parent

    Quite the opposite, actually (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by Iris on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:12:17 PM EST
    I would have never thought it would be possible for me not to support the Democratic nominee.  However, to hand the nomination to Obama when an eminently more experienced and qualified candidate such as Hillary is winning the popular vote and the swing states, is practically unforgivable, especially given the circumstances our country is in right now.  Do we want a President or an affirmative action hire to make young people feel good?  Increasingly I get the feeling that I don't know this party anymore, and that maybe our Dem. elected officials need to lose to understand the error of what they have done and are in the process of doing.

    Obama supporters can't imagine why someone would vote for McCain because they have spent the last years in a hermetically sealed bubble, inundating themselves with their own propaganda.  But all this has made me reconsider and ask myself if perhaps we wouldn't be better off with McCain as President rather than a.) letting Obama destroy our party and b.) risking disaster if, as it seems, Obama really isn't ready for the job.  I'm not saying I will, but the fact that a hard partisan such as myself could even contemplate such a thing could be an indicator of the thumping Obama has ahead of him in November.

    Parent

    Alternatively (4.85 / 7) (#163)
    by Evie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:09:40 PM EST
    Clinton voters may not see Obama as a legitimate representative of Democratic Party values. Such as, oh I don't know, counting every vote?

    I know, I know, those pesky Appalachians are clinging to democracy, along with all their other values, out of bitterness.

    Parent

    That's where I'm at (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by nycstray on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:17:45 PM EST
    At first I was thinking I had to vote for him, but when I laid out the reasons, didn't hold up. He's just one big question mark lacking experience.

    Parent
    Heh (4.55 / 9) (#154)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:06:12 PM EST
    Tell me, what was your reaction when Obama said he would get all of Hillary's supporters, but he didn't know if she would get all of his?

    Was your reaction "wow, sounds like he's saying Hillary's supporters are more loyal to the Democratic Party than his are"?  If not, your intellectual honesty might need to go into the shop for a check-up.

    Parent

    I must have missed that one... (1.00 / 1) (#166)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:10:38 PM EST
    Can you provide a link to that quote so I can see it?

    Thanks.

    Parent

    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:17:49 PM EST
    You missed it? And you have the gall to ask for a link? You thinl DSteve is lying?

    Gret the ff out of here. We do not need trolls like you.

    Leave now.

    Parent

    I'm serious (none / 0) (#208)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:07:19 PM EST
    I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not... :(
    If you are, I'm sorry...

    But I'm actually kind of offended if you are calling me a troll.  I'm not here to troll at all.

    I really was not familiar with that quote, and was hoping for a link that would put it in context for me.

    And I don't want to say Steve is lying- I don't know him at all, but my first inclination would be to assume he was telling the truth.

    I just really was hoping to get some information here.  Sorry if that is a huge bother.

    Parent

    Don't need the link anymore (none / 0) (#214)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:14:28 PM EST
    Somebody else was kind enough to reply with it on another comment of mine: http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2008/5/20/17859/4582/203#203

    However I' still don't appreciate your tone with me if you weren't being sarcastic...

    Parent

    Exactly the opposite (none / 0) (#207)
    by echinopsia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:59:05 PM EST
    Obama voters in KY are more loyal to the Democratic Party than Clinton voters.

    If Obama is the nominee, with his coalition of eggheads and AAs, with his preference for merit pay,  putting SS "on the table," likelihood of voting for Roberts-like SC justices, etc, and his disdain for women, Hispanics, working class and older voters, he's not a Democrat, and neither are his supporters. If he's the nominee, the Demcratic Party is no longer loyal to the Democratic Party.

    Loyal Dems want a REAL Democratic nominee - Hillary Clinton.

     

    Parent

    Well put (5.00 / 2) (#219)
    by Iris on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:24:01 PM EST
    If Obama is at the helm, what's the point of having a Democratic party at all?  People really should consider the lessons Obama will teach his faithful followers: that 'bipartisanship' is more important than principle, that it's racist to seek the votes of the working class, that Social Security is really in 'crisis,' that the goal is just 'affordable' health care instead of universal health care, that Bill and Hillary Clinton didn't accomplish anything good in 8 years, that young voters and blacks are desirable for a coalition but whites, the poor, and elderly voters are not, etc etc.

    He should have run as a third-party candidate.

    Parent

    Ya know it's sad. (5.00 / 11) (#98)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:43:19 PM EST
    I told my white in-laws waaaaay back when this primary first started, this country wasn't ready for a black president (full disclosure, I'm black & male,) thinking we had too many closet racists for it to happen.  I see now it's not the closet racists, it's the people who think they're soooo enlightened.  Those who think they're smarter than everyone else.  They believe they know everything there is to know about folks not like themselves.  To the point they feel they know those folks better than those folks know themselves.  Unfortunately, it is they, who more often that not come off as condescending; who are the real troublemakers.  I don't think it's even about class, it's just plain arrogance in a belief that "I know more than than you," when the reality is u don't know jack.

    America's problem is not race (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:50:10 PM EST
    it's class.  We've not evolved beyond the systems that our English founders set up lo those many years ago.  

    Parent
    RE: Class, you may be right. (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:02:49 PM EST
    The availability of so-called "information" makes many folks think they're experts when they're not, thus causing the definition of class to be about more than just $$$.

    Parent
    It's both (5.00 / 4) (#151)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:05:41 PM EST
    There ARE people out there that will dismiss a person because of the color of their skin. I had a neighbor whose kid told my daughter she couldn't be friends with her because she was friends with a black girl(My daughters best friend is AA). It totally repulsed me that we have AA men and women out herefighting and dying for that peron's right to say such a disgusting thing. That said, I wouldn't say racism is prevalent in Appalachia(I live in SW Va) as it is being portrayed. Instead I would say these are people who are swayed by thier ecoomic interest.

    Parent
    I think we are way ready (5.00 / 6) (#113)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:51:50 PM EST
    for a black president.  But I want a president with a record of some kind.  And all the hopey, preachy, cool guy stuff just reminded me of shrub.  When the media and dnc started it's stuff..well that just made me stand up and fight.

    That and over the course of this process I have developed a deep respect for Clinton.  I will go door to door for her, tooth and nail.

    Parent

    wholeheartedly agree. (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:04:19 PM EST
    this elite (none / 0) (#210)
    by isaac on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:08:56 PM EST
    support of obama is really an insult to the intelligence of the american people and shame on the party for buying into such a shallow candidate.  this is the dnc version of bush, new, nonthreatening, feel good rhetoric, controllable

    Parent
    BTD has put it very well (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by RalphB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:20:50 PM EST
    when he has posted that Barack Obama's worst enemies are his biggest supporters.  Seems to me he has gotten some very bad advice since February.


    Parent
    Appalachian (5.00 / 7) (#99)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:43:52 PM EST
    When global warming causes the oceans to rise and swallow the latte-elites in their wine-sippping coastal enclaves, we in Appalachia will remember this primary & won't be inclined to share our lands, our mad survival skillz, or our beer.

    Today, I am an Appalachian.

    Seriously, when will the message penetrate that arguing this like an intellectual exercise is counterproductive to the goal of winning the hearts and minds of voters?  Where's my pandering?  I was promised some pandering and I want it now -- instead I'm being scolded all the time and I don't even live in Appalachia!

    oh well (none / 0) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:48:15 PM EST
    I didnt click on the link at first.
    I see the headline is from my favorite Kos dingbat.
    so not a big surprise.

    Parent
    If that FPer wrote it (none / 0) (#112)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:51:13 PM EST
    the odds are good that my reaction will still be "I can't believe he still has FP privileges!".

    Obama isn't the only one who needs some vetting.  (I still think DK is somehow redeemable.)

    Parent

    no kidding (5.00 / 4) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:52:30 PM EST
    only in the lala land of Kos would a FP poster expect voters to prove something to a candidate instead of the reverse.
    god help us.


    Parent
    I use DailyKos links to get here and there (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by ding7777 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:53:22 PM EST
    (much like I used Drudge in the 90's).

    When I saw DHinMI's headline, I laughed out loud then wondered what BTD would say about it... thanks BTD!

    OT: Early exit polls (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:55:59 PM EST
    courtesy of CNN (4 minutes left)

    ) - The vast majority of Hillary Clinton supporters in Kentucky are not willing to support Barack Obama should he win the party's nomination, a sign of the continuing division in the Democratic Party as the primary race comes to a close.

    According to the just released exit polls, only 33 percent of Clinton backers said they would vote for Obama should he be the party's nominee. That compares to 71 percent of Obama supporters who say they are willing to support Clinton if she wins the nomination.

    Those numbers are even worse for Obama than in West Virginia one week ago, where 36 percent of Clinton voters said they would back Barack Obama in fall.

    As for the Clinton backers in Kentucky, 41 percent of them say they will back McCain if Obama is the Democratic nominee, 23 percent said they won't vote at all, and 3 percent said they would vote for other candidates.

    Among Obama supporters in Kentucky, 14 percent said they would back McCain, 11 percent said they would not vote in the general election, and 4 percent said they would vote for other candidates.

    Supers need to wake up (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:59:20 PM EST
    These numbers are not getting better, they are getting worse.

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 6) (#148)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:04:24 PM EST
    Only 33%?  Amazing.  At this rate, a majority of the Democratic Party will be exposed as "not real Democrats" by the time this election is over.

    Parent
    Well, if you apply the Bowers definition, (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:20:40 PM EST
    we're not.

    Only a very few really qualify as Democrats.

    You know.

    The elite ones.

    Parent

    "Appalachia's Last Chance to Show..." (5.00 / 4) (#136)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:00:22 PM EST
    That title sounds like a threat.

    Charming.  And yes, not a way to win friends and influence people.

    Didn't you know? (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:03:45 PM EST
    Appalachia is running for public office!

    [Shrug]
    That's what it implies, doesn't it?

    Parent

    I could have saved myself the pain but (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:06:15 PM EST
    I forgot to hover my mouse over the link

    just as the fab eleanora told me to do

    sigh

    ;-)

    Btw, History Channel special on Appalachia (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:06:58 PM EST
    ran last night, I caught part of it, and it was fascinating as to how its early history still shapes its downright cussedness (don't jump on me; that's what my WV relatives call it:-) today.

    It's going to be running again in our area, and maybe in some of yours.  Just a heads-up.  Oh, and if you're squeamish, go away during the part about the snake-handlers, too!

    Check out these sites (5.00 / 3) (#161)
    by sas on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:08:13 PM EST

         Please pass these on to feminists and Hillary supporters - more on the
    'movement.'...

    http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=27732

    http://hillary1000.wordpress.com/2008/05/17/clinton-supporters-count-too/

    the author of that piece (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by seesdifferent on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:16:20 PM EST
    is a well known butthead, and an truly unfortunate choice as frontpager at dkos.  It looks like he's taking a lot of flak, and well he should.

    Go read the diary that was linked. (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:21:08 PM EST
    and then comment on that.

    Or, alternatively, buzz off before someone drops a house on you.

    i guess obama's next book won't (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by hellothere on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:25:33 PM EST
    be how to win over and influence blue collar workers.

    ... why increasingly, I suspect dKos of being the brilliant brainchild of a Republican operative. Or a massively gifted troll.

    wtg, dKos! ::bangs head against wall::

    I mean, seriously --- could they be more inept or ignorant?

    I shouldn't have said that - they'll only prove that, yes, they can be more inept and ignorant.

    Its only fair to discuss bloc voting ... (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by lyzurgyk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:26:54 PM EST
    ... when the bloc votes against Obama.

    I could live happily without any input from a DailyKos "front pager" ever again.   The Kos scene is so 2004.          

    Screw lower class whites (2.50 / 2) (#223)
    by bowchikabowbow on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:59:32 PM EST
    I think that Clinton might be a better general election candidate but she lost. So, I think its time that the democratic party threw lower class whites under bus. The daily show had the most honest reporting on the why lower class whites voted against Obama and its because he's black and a "muslim" in their eyes. So they're stupid and racist basically. But don't get me wrong I know that a lot of them voted for Clinton because of her economic policies, which i would say that she has a better healthcare plan.

    But, its time we all admit that Obama is the nominee and he can't win over the votes of racist lower class whites. I think that he should pick a hispanic for VP preferably Richardson but any hispanic will do. Bush won 44% of hispanics last time and Kerry would be president is he had gotten just 10 to 15 more as he barely lost AZ, ND, CO, and NM. But picking a hispanic could put Texas in play, which would be huge as only 48% of Texas' population is white while hispanics make up 36%.

    You don't need very many whites to win anymore and I think its about time the democrats became the party of all the minorities and educated whites say to hell with racist, lower-class whites. That is what the party is essentially anyways. If Obama did that then he would be true to the party. The other thing he would have to do to make me happy is embrace single-payer healthcare, not be embarrassed to not wear a flag pin and call himself a liberal proudly.

     

    That's Right (1.00 / 1) (#217)
    by kaleidescope on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:16:35 PM EST
    People all across Kentucky tonight are going to take it out on Barack Obama because DHinMI was condescending to them.  I hear the local station in Lexington is doing a call-in about the insult.  Someone in Paducah has challenged DHinMI to a duel.  From the banks of the Ohio to Mammoth Cave, Kentuckians everywhere are livid.

    DHinMI can take his elitist condescending Ann Arbor latte-sipping attitude and park it right in the beltway, where he probably parks a Volvo these days.

    And if Obama becomes the nominee (you never know because superdelegates (and even elected delegates) can change their vote at any time) and if Obama loses Kentucky in the fall, he can blame it on DHinMI.

    The great Orange Satan strikes again.

    I am continually annoyed (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jim J on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:29:29 PM EST
    by paid DC staffers like DHinMI who hide behind the perceived anonymity and mythical high-mindedness of blogs to pursue nakedly partisan agendas. I would not blink an eye to find out that the A-list bloggers, Markos, Josh, et al., have received generous payouts from the Obama money mill.

    Say What? (none / 0) (#122)
    by Spike on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:56:12 PM EST
    What exactly is wrong with a nakedly partisan agenda on a political blog? It seems to me that most of the people who post here would be guilty of that charge and proud of it.

    Parent
    It's not "partisan" (none / 0) (#139)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:01:09 PM EST
    when it bashes fellow Dems non stop.  

    Some people declared Clinton "a Dem no longer" in order to get rid of any lingering guilt.   Could they be any more transparent?

    Parent

    Who pays DHinMI? Do you know or (none / 0) (#156)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:06:26 PM EST
    are you speculating?

    Parent
    I get it. BTD is indirectly trying (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:31:08 PM EST
    to make the rec list at DK again.

    that minx! (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:35:06 PM EST
    I hate to say it, but I went over there.  I had kind of forgotten how horrible they are, so in some ways, I am glad of the reminder.

    This is why it's important that Clinton not quit.  A lot of folks on the other thread talked about how she has won them over.  She has the ability to unite, and she can go toe-to-toe against McCain.

    Rise, Hillary, Rise!

    Parent

    I got one.... (none / 0) (#167)
    by kdog on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:10:47 PM EST
    How not to win voters...hmm, telling them you will continue to advocate for their arrest, or the arrest of a loved one, is one way not to win votes.  Or how about telling them you will continue to station troops in 100 or so countries to the detriment of peace and the treasury.  

    Oh yeah...Obama, Clinton, and McCain are all saying that.  Never mind.

    those (none / 0) (#177)
    by CanadianDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:19:15 PM EST
    maps don't lie...to me it reads as if Clinton has problems outside that area, which looks to be 80% of the country?

    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#196)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:30:40 PM EST
    You think Clinton has "problems" unless she wins 65% of the vote in a given county?  I should have problems like that.

    Parent
    Area does not equal population (none / 0) (#215)
    by blogtopus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:15:43 PM EST
    You don't really think that California has so many electoral points because of SQUARE MILES, do you?

    If that were the case, Alaska would rule us all.

    Parent

    I'm sorry I offended anyone. (none / 0) (#201)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:47:18 PM EST
    It wasn't my intention.

    Can somebody tell me (none / 0) (#213)
    by blogtopus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:14:16 PM EST
    where in the demographic of Obama's voters this sense of entitlement and arrogance comes from? It isn't the AA voters, that's for sure; is it the youth vote? The creative class? Where in Ghod's name was this feeling hiding for the past few years? Or was it just cloaked in Bush Hatred?

    Seriously, if this were a family member who started acting as irrationally and violently in such a sudden manner, I'd be scheduling an MRI and an observational 72 hour stay in the psycho ward for them immediately.

    BTW this isn't a knock at Senator Edward Kennedy; I'm really damn sorry to hear that about him, and hope he has a speedy recovery if possible. Guh; he and his brothers have had little mercy in life.