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Why Dems Need A Unity Ticket

Unlike Color Of Change, I am thinking about ways to unify our divided Democratic Party, not further divide it. Chris Bowers writes:

I have to wonder how divisions of this nature can be healed just given an extra month or two. I also have to wonder if this was always the danger we faced in the primary. Clinton and Obama are both pretty centrist, and do not differ from each other on policy that much (although there are some difference on health care and telecom policy). As such, wasn't this really all about identity from the start? For a primary campaign to be based on identity instead of on policy is a ticking time bomb for any coalition, especially one that is built on historically under-represented groups in D.C. like African-Americans, Latinos, women and the LGBT community.

One important way is to stop denigrating portions of this coalition. All parts of the coalition are important - African Americans, Latinos, white women, white working class and yes, Creative Class whites too. Dems must unify for November. Let's respect all parts of our Democratic coalition. The best way to do this is to support a Unity Ticket between two candidates who have split the Democratic primary vote almost right down the middle.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only.

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    At mininum... (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by sweetthings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:24:19 AM EST
    I think whichever candidate wins had better immediately turn around and offer the VP slot to whichever one lost.

    I don't know that they have to accept, but I think the offer has to be made.

    That would be a huge mistake (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:40:57 PM EST
    I used to call Obama the "pied piper" for obvious reasons. Then, after the San Francisco mistake that label disappeared...people were finally starting to listen to the words instead of just the melody.

    His pathological lying is a problem. He lies just to lie. Even his two books are fiction. Why does he feel he needs to do this?

    I can't vote for him if he gets the nomination. I wouldn't be able to vote for Hillary if she added him to her ticket.  Hillary needs to chose someone who balances her out, not who shadows her every step.


    Parent

    You are (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by AnninCA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:24:57 AM EST
    starting to wear me down on this.  :)

    Seriously, maybe because this has been such a ground-breaking primary season, the old rule of allow the winner to pick their mate should be re-evaluated.

    I agree with you 100% that the fact is that we are a coalition of varied interest groups.

    That may be the only path to unity....is to respect that and honor it.

    Yes, (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:39:11 AM EST
    BTD has us all under a bright white spotlight.

    "Unity ticket!  Admit it!" he says.

    And we slouch down in our seats in silent pain.

    However, I will say that as of April 22, 48% believed that Hillary should be at the top of a unity ticket, while only 40% believed the same about Obama.  

    Link and look at #3.

    And of course I agree with the 48%.  A unity ticket with Hillary at the top would work for me as well.  Obama could run in 2016 when Hillary would be too "old" (I know McCain is "old" but he's also Republican and the two seem to cancel each other out).

    I think if Obama wants to prove to me that he's as deserving of the top of a unity ticket -- RIGHT NOW -- he should go on O'Reilly and perform as well as Hillary did.  Hiding from real interviews (I know, Timmeh, LOL) isn't impressive at all.  Who knows, if he wins the primary, maybe they can hide Obama until he wins the general?  It may work.


    Parent

    I hate the term creative class (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by david mizner on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:26:24 AM EST
    It has such a self-congratulatory ring to it.

    As for the substantive point, I wouldn't mind a unity ticket, but I know about a million Obama supporters who would.

    i'm an obama supporter (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:45:34 AM EST
    and would be ok with such a ticket.  i don't think she'd accept it but could be wrong.  at this point though, i think it might be needed to unite the party.  

    Parent
    She was the one (none / 0) (#53)
    by Chimster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:23:17 AM EST
    that kept touting a unity ticket. I think she'll accept.

    Parent
    The question is (none / 0) (#95)
    by rnibs on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:56:16 PM EST
    will Obama accept the VP spot?  

    Parent
    Will she accept VP spot? (none / 0) (#108)
    by jcsf on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:37:35 PM EST
    Do you think?

    Parent
    Well, they're the group (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:46:55 AM EST
    that refuses to compromise on anything. But if they can't accept this, we'll all lose.

    Parent
    They'll get over it. (none / 0) (#30)
    by sweetthings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:56:05 AM EST
    Especially if Obama comes out on top. But even if he doesn't, they'll come around.

    Hopefully the same is true of Hillary voters, though the polls I've seen suggest that will be a little more of an uphill climb.

    Parent

    I might consider a unity ticket (none / 0) (#85)
    by sas on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:54:05 PM EST
    with Hillary at the top, if she is ahead in the popular vote

    I will not vote for Obamna by himself. He's not ready, and basically unelectable in my view.

    Parent

    But you're a Hillary supporter.... (none / 0) (#86)
    by sweetthings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:57:22 PM EST
    Right? So of course you'll vote for a Clinton-Obama ticket. I suspect most Obama supporters would as well, even if they grumble a little on the way into the voting both.

    The question is whether you'd back an Obama-Clinton ticket.

    Parent

    To quote Michelle... (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by oldpro on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:14:09 PM EST
    I'd have to think about it.

    OK....I've thought about it.

    Yes, minimally support...with my vote.  Dollars?  No. Campaign for? Unlikely.  If the new/young/takeover Democrats are going to pick my candidate they can also take over my obligations and responsibilities.

    After 50+ activist years, I'm done with the Democratic Party.

    Parent

    why would they grumble as vp (none / 0) (#99)
    by kimsaw on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:05:47 PM EST
    he has the potential to be in power for 16 years if he gets some experience under his belt. It's absolutely ego if he won't it, same with Clinton although she maybe looking at 2012 strategy, but its an opportunity to have a woman as VP, though I think she should head the ticket as she is the far better policy wonk. Obama could be sent on all those unity missions!

    Parent
    Obama/Clinton is beyond the pale (none / 0) (#100)
    by angie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:11:55 PM EST
    I've never been a fan of the unity ticket for either one of them -- whoever the nominee is, he/she needs to pick a 3rd person as his/her VP -- that is the best way to get over this -- FRESH START -- the supporters of whoever isn't the nominee need to suck it up and vote Dem.
    That said, and while I will vote for the Clinton/Obama ticket, no way in hell will I vote for an Obama/Clinton ticket -- I take that as a personal insult as a professional woman.  The older more experienced woman teaching her boss his job. No thank you -- I see enough of that in my daily life. And any one that doesn't like that, c'est la vie.

    Parent
    Best post of the whole campaign. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:33:25 AM EST
    And exactly right.

    Thank you.

    Do you really think that (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by GMN on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:38:51 AM EST
    Obama would not be an incredible drag on a ticket with Clinton?  He's turned himself into a walking target for the Republican machine.  Why would any Dem want Clinton to have to deal with Obama's baggage?  

    I fear I will never see the day when Dems finally decide to accept politics for what it is: a blood sport in the pursuit of power.

    Please wake up.

    The Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by hitchhiker on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:44:21 AM EST
    can't run against the person in the #2 spot, though I grant your point that they're salivating at the thought of having him as a target.

    The upside of a Clinton/Obama ticket is exactly what BTD describes: a unified party.  The Democratic Party brand at this moment is wildly more popular than its opposite number; people want a solid, reliable alternative the Republicans.

    Bush has convinced them that the Republican party is full of incompetent ideologues.  All we have to do is refuse to become the party of bitter squabblers, and we win.

    Parent

    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Thanin on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:18:08 AM EST
    at this point, regardless of how damaged either candidate is, they'll both take a large chunk of votes with them when they get beat.  So while its not ideal, it would be a solution for party unity.  Because it doesnt matter who the VP is if half the party is sitting at home, chewing on their crow.

    Parent
    Unity ticket dead in the water. (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by madamab on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:47:42 AM EST
    This was not an inevitable outcome to the campaign. Obama should have been crushed a long time ago, and he would have been, had he not used race-baiting to leverage the AA community and pick up wins in smaller states that he would not win in the GE.

    I'm sorry, but Obama, right now, is a terrible candidate. No experience. Many, many lies and flip-flops on the record. Nuclear personal associations. A tenuous grasp of the issues. John Kerry was FDR compared to this guy, and the GOP still destroyed him.

    There is no way that Obama and HRC should share a ticket. He should go back to the Senate, build up some more experience and sponsor some more legislation, distance himself further from Wright, Ayers and Reszko, and try again in 2016.

    Parent

    race baiting... (3.00 / 0) (#67)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:39:33 AM EST
    Obama did not use race baiting to get AA votes.  He already had those votes (if anything, the accusation hurt him in SC, because AA aren't stupid, and realize that a false accusation of racism does a lot of damage to the black community.)

    Obama played the race card in SC for one reason -- to make race 'radioactive', and keep the media from focussing on the fact that his win in SC would be due to overwhelming support of the black community.  Only by making it 'racist' to notice that obvious fact (see the reaction to Bill Clinton's remarks re: Jesse Jackson winning in SC for how effective it was) could Obama not be labelled 'the black candidate'.

    Parent

    race baiting levarge?? (1.00 / 0) (#83)
    by libfighter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:42:10 PM EST
    please... the Clintons brought race into this campaign.

    You should visit some of the AA dem sites for a full apreciation of the rage.

    Parent

    I agree, although (none / 0) (#60)
    by Chimster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:29:29 AM EST
    if you want to guarantee a Democratic President, The "unity ticket" will get you there. What could be more inspirational to voters than these two media giants coming together to take on McCain, who is not a well-loved Republican.

    The Dem party is divided right down the middle. Huge nukmbers of new voters for each candidate. We can still win if the nominee chooses a different running mate, but the "Unity Ticket" will guarantee it.

    Parent

    Not according to the polls on that ticket (none / 0) (#93)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:44:42 PM EST
    I have mainly always agreed (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by herb the verb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:39:25 AM EST
    I thought for sure that Clinton had to take on Obama as VP if she wins. I still think she would, but Obama's baggage is getting very heavy and I believe will become a distraction in the GE.

    I have already concluded that Obama will lose the GE in a devastating defeat should he get the nom., so it would be foolish of Clinton to take that ride (she clearly also believes he will lose catestrophically). Having said that, Obama needs to publicly offer her the spot and she needs to (and surely will) campaign vigorously for him after declining. I think Bill would also campaign for him if they approached him with dignity and respect.

    Clearly Howard Dean doesn't agree since I saw him on a Sunday show last weekend saying "the responsibility for repairing the divide lies entirely with the loser of the contest". Seriously, the man is a idiot of the first order.

    Howard Dean (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Coral on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:48:23 AM EST
    If he really said that, he has it exactly backwards. It is up to the winner to reach out graciously to the loser and to the supporters of the loser.

    Howard Dean has lost a lot of my respect lately.

    Parent

    He did say that (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by ruffian on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:58:00 AM EST
    I heard it too, and then I heard BTD's head explode.  OK, so that last part was in my imagination.

    Dean is a jerk.  Never thought I would say that, but everything he said last Sunday - this, and his statements about FL and MI - confirmed it.

    Parent

    I think Dean had it right. (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Chimster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:35:03 AM EST
    The winner should obviously reach out to the other nominee, BUT the loser is the one with half the Democratic party threatening to sit out the GE. That loser holds a lot of power. That person has to get all of his/her angry followers to unite behind the new nominee. I think Dean had that part right.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#97)
    by rnibs on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:03:04 PM EST
    it's the winner who has to reach out, first by offering the VP spot.  Without that, there's no hope.  The thing is, I suspect that Obama will refuse to accept the VP spot.  

    Parent
    So the unity candidate (none / 0) (#104)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:04:43 PM EST
    does not need to do the unifying???  I would like to see him demonstrate one of campaign ideas.  We hear unity, but no examples or plans.  We hear change, but no examples or plans.

    Obama on right now linking Clinton to Bush again. sigh.  

    Clinton in Kentucky in a derby hat.  Obama camp in a panic and scrambling to send a team to avoid a blowout.

    Parent

    Do you have a link for that quote? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:52:06 AM EST
    Ok, here it is (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:03:23 AM EST
    DR. DEAN:  You know, I--this is, this is pretty hypothetical.  There's a lot of if, if, if, and you and I have both raised teenagers and we both know you don't answer too may hypothetical questions before you get in a lot of trouble.  So, you know, if, if, if, if.  The, the--we don't divide people. The Republicans have scapegoated minority groups for a long time.  First they pointed the fingers at African-Americans by calling what--affirmative action as a quota system.  Then they pointed the finger at gay Americans with an anti-gay marriage stuff on all the ballots where gay marriage was already illegal anyway.  Now they're pointing the fingers at immigrants and, by extension, Hispanic and Asian-Americans.  We don't do that in this party.  Now we happen to have an African-American candidate and a woman candidate, and clearly those groups of folks who have historically been disenfranchised in our political process have their favorites because there's an emotional pull towards those candidates.  See, at the end of the day, we have to bring that together, and as I said at the opening of the show, the most important person to bring those folks together is the person who doesn't win.

    link

    Parent

    Huh. (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by sweetthings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:11:38 AM EST
    I don't read that as Dean saying it's the responsibility of the losing candidate to mend fences. He's saying that the losing candidate is the one who can have the most impact. And he's absolutely right about that.

    However, this is not going to be a problem for the Democrats no matter who loses. Hillary and Obama are both professional, committed Democrats who agree on 99% of the stuff out there. The day after either one of them loses, they will be out stumping for the person who just beat them. There will be no sour grapes from the candidates themselves. (supporters are another matter, of course)

    Parent

    That's not it, though similar. He said the (none / 0) (#45)
    by Joan in VA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:18:12 AM EST
    "lies entirely with the loser" on something other than MTP. I heard it but I can't remember exactly where. I kinda think it wasn't on a political show but just talking to an anchorwoman.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#54)
    by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:24:25 AM EST
    we have to remember that Dean speaks from experience here.  After Kerry beat him by running a slimy bin Laden ad, Dean sucked it up and did his best to help the ticket win.  I would be surprised if he's trying to say anything more than that.

    Parent
    He said it twice then. My quote was at the (none / 0) (#46)
    by Teresa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:18:32 AM EST
    very beginning of the interview. (Sorry, I'm slow). Your quote is actually the one I was looking for.

    Parent
    I saw both, but this one seemed (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:22:07 AM EST
    to have more context. I wanted to give the good doctor some rope. ;-)

    Parent
    This is what he said (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Teresa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:07:00 AM EST
    And actually, I'm not the most important person in terms of bringing the party together.  The most important person is the person who doesn't win the nomination.  Because I can remember when I lost to John Kerry, I had to go out and convince my supporters, it took me about 3 months, that they needed to support Sen. Kerry.  I endorsed him, I campaigned for him, I went to all the college campuses and that's what the person who doesn't win this with 49% of the delegate is going to have to do keep the party together.

    Link

    Parent

    Thanks for the link (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by ruffian on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:21:45 AM EST
    I also loved this part, regarding MI and FL:

    MR. RUSSERT:  But Michigan and Florida are swing states.

    DR. DEAN:  They're both very important states.  That doesn't mean they're any more important than anybody else.

    What does he think 'swing state' means exactly? I know we are all equal under the law and in the eys of the deity, but some states are more important electorally. That is just a fact.

    Parent

    Sorry I put that whole last post in quotes (none / 0) (#52)
    by ruffian on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:23:15 AM EST
    Of course I meant to only quote the parts labeled 'Mr. Dean' and 'Mr. Russert'.

    The rest is all me!

    Parent

    Here (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by katiebird on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:08:56 AM EST
    Meet the Press:

    And actually, I'm not the most important person in terms of bringing the party together.  The most important person is the, is the person who doesn't win the nomination.  Because I can remember when, I can remember when I lost to John Kerry, I had to go out and convince my supporters--it took me about three months--that they needed to support Senator Kerry.  I endorsed him, I campaigned for him, I went all--to all the college campuses.  And that's what the person who doesn't win this, with 49 percent of the delegates, is going to have to do in order to keep the party together.


    Parent
    I should have highlighted (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by katiebird on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:22:38 AM EST
    the last sentence....

    Parent
    true, he did that (none / 0) (#72)
    by ruffian on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:53:14 AM EST
    but his campaign did not have anywhere near an even split of support with Kerry's.  

    Kerry did more to unify the party by picking Edwards as his running mate than Dean did by going to college campuses.

    Once again, Dean inadvertantly makes BTD's point.

    Parent

    Hmm (none / 0) (#94)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:45:49 PM EST
    That was then. That race is in no way comparable. Hell, Dean was not even the second place finisher.

    Dumb comment from Dean.

    Parent

    That is exactly what he said BTD. On MTP (none / 0) (#28)
    by Teresa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:55:37 AM EST
    I think. I saw it too and immediately thought of you.

    Parent
    You Know (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:41:30 AM EST
    There's policy and there's identity politics.

    The persistent failure to include competence issues in this discussion is to misunderstand and come up short analyzing these issues accurately.

    Just a real basic way of isolating the issue.

    Two baseball players.  One's an AA.  The other is a latino.  They each have the same set of policies with respect to game of baseball (see, stay with this OK), in otherwords, they both have the goal of getting base hits or hitting home runs when they come up to bat.  

    And, truth be told, though no one would ever want to talk about it, the demographic of this particular baseball team's fans is made up of primarily equal parts AAs and latinos (if you don't think baseball teams take this sort of thing in consideration to some degree check out the LA Angels of Anaheim), but we still haven't talked about the most obvious thing.

    The fact that one of these players is an unproven rookie who has shown some flash in triple AAA, and the other is a proven veteran still consistently hitting .340 in the bigs.

    The bottom line is Clinton supporters, (Maybe we're deluded) have a baseline set of expectations from Clinton that we feel confident can be met based on historical data points.

    Yes. There's policy.  That's important.  Yes.  There's identity.   That's imporant too.

    And I think that's why (5.00 / 6) (#24)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:51:13 AM EST
    somebody, probably us, brought O'Reilly big ratings on Wednesday night.  It is because we could actually stand to watch Hillary with O'Reilly, and knew with confidence that she wouldn't say anything that would make us cringe or hide our eyes from the TV.  In fact, we suspected she would kick hiney.

    Our baseline set of expectations is usually completely met and sometimes far exceeded by Hillary (as it was with the O'Reilly interview).  Obama disappoints (esp. IMHO when he apologizes for Republicans at the expense of Democrats).

    Kerry would have likely been a disaster in that O'Reilly interview, because he could be a disaster in the friendliest of interviews.  I suspect Obama would make us cringe too, given his debate performances.

    Hillary is competent, thinks on her feet, talks about our issues, doesn't apologize for Republicans, etc.  That is what we EXPECT from a Democrat.  And she gets it.

    Parent

    Sports analogies (1.00 / 0) (#39)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:07:11 AM EST
    are ridiculous in general, but to use it when making decisions regarding the POS is beyond ridiculous.

    50% of the party think that BO is qualified and ready for the job.  Bill Clinton was governor and the second youngest next to JFK and performed adequately in my opinion.  Historians still have Bill rated in the middle of the pack, well behind Reagan and ahead of first Bush.  Based on this crappy baseball analogy, what will Hillary "hit" amongst the historians 10 years after her presidency, what will Obama hit?

    What did Billy Mays, Hank Aaron and Jackie Robinson hit in their first years, and the 3 after their first?

    What did Dave Kingman hit in his 10th year?

    I don't want more of the same and both candidates represent a signifcant change from existing policy and are both centrists.  

    I would prefer Obama on top because I don't feel he has pandered to me, especially with the gas tax which was more than asinine and with the foreclosure bailout proposals which are highly punitive for potential buyers and sellers for the next few years.  Saving people who bit off more than they could chew is important but not at the expense of those who wish to buy and sell now.

    I prefer Baracks foreign policy to meet conditions or no with our "enemies".  We are not going to saber rattle Iran or North Korea into submission, haven't been able to do that in 30 years, how is that going to change now?

    I loved Bill C, but historians have graded him as a middle of the road president and I don't think Hillary or Barack possess any where near the savvy of Bill, but I do think they both will work tirelessly.  Having Bill around can't hurt either.

    Parent

    I'm not sure what your point is (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:25:19 AM EST
    but Jackie Robinson was Rookie of the Year.

    Parent
    the point is (1.00 / 0) (#71)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:50:33 AM EST
    that comparing an aged baseball player who hit 350 for 3 years with a "can't miss" rookie like a Mays or Robinson is stupid.  Would you take a Dave Kingman or a Jackie Robinson?  Of course 15 years later we would all take Jackie.

    You can make the same argument on the other side a George Brett or a Jerome Walton or Ron Kittle.

    The point is neither candidate is as strong as Bill C was and he is still ranked in the middle of the road by historians.  so the batting average/baseball analogy is silly.

    Parent

    That's all great (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:21:58 PM EST
    But bottom line is the only thing anyone ever talks about here is how identity fits with the demographics combined with the acknowledgement that both candidates really have the exact same objectives.

    No one ever discusses something as mundane as batting average.

    No analogy is ever perfect and one can always deconstruct it enough to miss the more important point entirely.


    Parent

    O/T but (none / 0) (#43)
    by NotThatStupid on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:16:46 AM EST
    Please - it's Willie Mays.

    Grew up watching him play, never saw anyone who loved the game more or had more fun playing it.

    Billy Mays does infomercials, I think.

    Carry on.

    Parent

    Lol (none / 0) (#69)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:46:23 AM EST
    did i really say Billy, must be the chicago in me, he was a great 3rd baseman, but no where near Willie....

    Parent
    "Say, hey..." (none / 0) (#98)
    by oldpro on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:03:47 PM EST
    You really ARE unnerved by sports analogies!

    Some of us like them, so get over it!

    That said, I'd (historically) send Willie, Roberto or Ichiro in to pinch hit in a tied game...identity be damned.  Experience matters.

    The thing you seem to be ignoring is that with Hillary at the plate, Bill is in the batter's circle, backing her up.

    Obama?  Ummm....who backs up the rookie?

    Parent

    I think you can forget unity now. (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by lyzurgyk on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:53:38 AM EST
    With Atrios now channelling Drudge to slime Hillary, I don't see this Humpty Dumpty getting back together anytime soon.

    Somebody slipped (none / 0) (#35)
    by eric on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:02:10 AM EST
    Atrios the Kool-aid.  It is depressing.  And it takes the same form as with all the other Kool-aid drinkers.

    Specifically, it isn't, "After careful consideration, I've decided to support Obama, and have some thoughtful criticism of Clinton", it is ever more frequent posts about how Clinton is bad and/or stupid.  Or, more specifically how her strategy, campaign, and campaign staff are bad and/or stupid.

    "Stategery!"  Ha ha, Atrios.

    Parent

    Atrios now admits it is a mistake (none / 0) (#42)
    by eric on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:14:43 AM EST
    HERE

    Now he admits that Kantor making a reference to what Bush I thought of Bill Clinton.

    But look how fast these people were willing to believe that absolute worst, post it up, and slime away.  Yuck

    BTW, to keep this on-topic, I think this is just more proof that unity is going to be a hard thing to accomplish.  These people are deeply invested in the "Clinton is bad" narrative.

    Parent

    Even if it was real ... (none / 0) (#61)
    by lyzurgyk on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:30:10 AM EST
    ... what the heck is Atrios doing pushing it?   He knew exactly how it would be used.

    Very hard for me to feel unity with people who are willing to win this way.  


    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#68)
    by eric on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:40:40 AM EST
    these people are willing to think the worst.  And they are willing to push these stories.  In his defense, Atrios does seem especially apologetic about this.  Maybe it will wake him up...

    Parent
    Hillary doesn't need Obama (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by stefystef on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:55:05 AM EST
    This is just spin from the Obama camp.  Hillary will not pick Obama, but will pick a solid Democrat who can reach out to the South and to moderate conservatives.

    The Republicans can't stand McCain, but they feel they need to back him up to keep Republicans in the White House.

    You want a uniter???  Hillary Clinton is the one.

    I think Hillary needs to make the offer. (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by sweetthings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:58:57 AM EST
    If Obama declines it, and he very well may, then all it well and she's free to choose whoever she likes. But the offer needs to be made.

    The same will hold true if Obama wins.

    Parent

    I completely disagree (none / 0) (#57)
    by DWCG on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:26:14 AM EST
    I think they both need each other.  But I see the picture of a lesser-qualified pomp-and-circumstance young black man at the top of a ticket where an overqualified policy-wonk white woman with encyclopedic knowledge of government is as so susceptible to all the bad things in politics/elections it might make some folk lose sleep at night.

    Hillary/Barack is such an easier fit.

    Parent

    Obama/Clinton (none / 0) (#66)
    by misspeach2008 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:39:08 AM EST
    would be an outrage.  The inexperienced man in the top spot and the better qualified woman playing second fiddle?  No unity pony there.

    Parent
    I agree that the idea of a unity ticket (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:55:41 AM EST
    is an interesting one.

    But I'm not sure that this pairing will work as well as you'd like it to.

    There must be quite a few viable candidates out there to look at.

    Ya'know, I'm just not that into Obama... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by goldberry on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:59:23 AM EST
    ...that I feel we have to have him on the ticket in the fall.  Why give up a perfectly good position to a less than one-term senator with no record of accomplishment just to appease the Big Boyz?  And if Obama has made it so that his supporters won't vote for her now, it's his responsibility to see that they do.  After all, it wasn't Hillary who pissed them off in the first place.  It was Obama's campaign magnifying some innocuous remarks and twisting them out of all proportion.  In fact, Obama has managed to alienate a whole lot of voters.  He's got a lot of work to do supporting the eventual ticket and because he is responsible for the split in the first place, I don't want him on it.  We don't need any moles for Pelosi and Dean in the WH.

    See the field as it is (none / 0) (#63)
    by DWCG on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:30:40 AM EST
    The MSM have made any nomination of Clinton as a rejection of African-Americans.  They've successfully created the narrative.  Unless they can beat it back (I don't see how they possibly can), we have to respond to it.

    Parent
    I'm surprised you didn't write a post on it (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by magster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:19:47 AM EST
    But the FOX poll showed the unity ticket polling very well against a Republican unity ticket.  47-41.  (Just popping in, so no time to find the link).

    I believe I have read (none / 0) (#73)
    by soccermom on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:10:48 PM EST
    a poll where Clinton beats McCain by these numbers head-to-head.  Why burden yourself with a loser?

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by magster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:17:03 PM EST
    The same poll showed Obama and Clinton each 1% over McCain when flying solo.

    Parent
    RCP Poll (none / 0) (#109)
    by soccermom on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:20:13 PM EST
    McCain by 6 over Obama.  Clinton by 4 over McCain.  Latest Gallop--McCain by 1 over Clinton, McCain by 6 over Obama.  Not that these numbers are written in stone, but for today they are accurate for yesterday.

    Parent
    In my experience (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:26:42 AM EST
    most people in the liberal blogosphere completely fail to understand the concept of coalition politics.  That's why the orange place has always been dominated by purity trolls who want to throw everyone to the right of Russ Feingold out of the party.

    Not Going to Happen (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by daryl herbert on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:30:24 AM EST
    1 - Sen. Obama, his wife, campaign staff, and big donors loathe the Clintons on a deeply personal level.

    2 - Sen. Obama fears that Bill and Hillary would be running things behind his back if he was #1.

    3 - Sen. Obama fears that Bill and Hillary would give him very little to do in office if he was #2.

    4 - Sen. Obama would rather find a white guy with minimal baggage who can win over working-class white voters than to have Sen. Clinton as VP.

    5 - Did I mention that Sen. Obama absolutely loathes the Clintons at this point?

    I think Rep. Pelosi is aware of Reason #1 (and she might be one of the Hillary-haters) because she has said several times, with absolute certainty, that a unity ticket is not going to happen.  I believe her.

    Joe Andrews (?) the Clinton defector (none / 0) (#101)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:41:58 PM EST
    was on Morning Joe today and floated the idea of Obama picking Evan Bayh.  He thinks picking a Hillary surrogate will somehow assuage Hillary supporters.  WTF??  To add insult to injury, he also said something along the lines of Bayh being the right age to essentially keep with the theme of younger, more energetic ideas.  That's not a quote, but that was the gist of it.  It's not bad enough that he defects; he has to throw an age shot in as well.  

    He really made my skin crawl.  In all fairness, it may have had something to do with the fact that his skin was extremely oily-shiny. Eww.

    Parent

    Strange bedfellows . . . (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by wurman on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:55:35 PM EST
    1952 Adlai Stevenson & John Sparkman
    1956   "      "      " Estes Kefauver
    1960 John Kennedy & Lyndon Johnson
    1964 Lyndon Johnson & Hubert Humphrey
    1972 George McGovern & Thomas Eagleton (the worst
                           train wreck #2 in history)
    2000 Al Gore & Joseph Lieberman (s*@#b%g?:;|)

    Maybe ya' had to be there, but some of these #2 picks just boggle the imagination.  Eagleton secretly told Count Novakula in Apr 1972 that McGovern was "for amnesty, abortion and legalization of pot."  Fine running mate, hunh?

    Sen. Obama & Sen. Clinton are a much better match than any of the above.

    Seven Stages of Grief (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Steven Donegal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:59:03 PM EST
    Glad to see that the Clinton backers are moving along the path to acceptance.  Bargaining is step 3.

    Interesting coming from you (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:08:06 PM EST
    your first statement here was ...  'I will not vote for her, however....  I do not want Bill Clinton back in the White House in any capacity.'

    Besided not believing you, your attitude is condescending.  

    Parent

    "Similar" policies - disagree (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by LCaution on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:44:13 PM EST
    BTD,
    You've repeated a number of times that there is little policy difference between Obama and Hillary.

    I would argue that, using a broader definition, there are large differences (beyond the most obvious which is in health care).

    First, I have no proof for this other than my eyes and ears, but Hillary seems to truly know what she wants to do.  Over and over again she has demonstrated mastery of a wide variety of issues.  You can see it in her answers to questions.  They are concrete.  Obama, to me at least, seems much more like Bush.  I can practically see him trying to remember what it was about the subject in question that he is supposed to say.  Think about the Fox interview where he hemmed and hawed about the capital gains tax, and finally fell back on, guess who's policy?, Reagan.  This in spite of the fact that he had given a specific, and different figure, than Hillary to Gibson's question in a debate that had not occurred all that much earlier.

    Second, but related, is a work ethic.  No matter where Hillary is speaking, she has facts at her fingertips about the city or state.  She knows what the major issues are, what matters to people.  Obama seems to give pretty much the same speech everywhere.  (I noticed this first way back in the Iowa/N.H. days.  The speech Obama gave after New Hampshire was, minus the first sentence or two, the same speech he would have given had he won.) Yes, it shows off her competence, but it also indicates a respect for the people whose vote she is trying to get.  

    Third, Obama is hung up on this "unity" thing - although he never explains how he is going to unify Reps. & Dems. in Washington other than, of course, by the sheer power of his presence. (Yes, I'm being snarky, but the only time I've seen any interest on the part of Republicans to "work together", has been when they were out of power. You'd have to have been living on a desert island for the past 15 years or so to think that both parties are equally responsible for the current climate of Washington politics.)

    As far as I can tell, there is nothing Obama cares enough about to really fight for it. I suspect he'd be just as likely to throw his health care plan under a bus as his grandmother.   Hillary, OTOH, is not so naive.  I'd be willing to bet that for every program she wants to implement, she knows who will be for it, who will be against it, and what arguments she could make (or deals she could do) to win over enough of the latter to get what she wants.

    In short, position papers matter only so much.  What counts is the willingness and ability to put those ideas into practice. And here, my opinion only, there is a huge gulf between the two.

    Taken at face value (none / 0) (#88)
    by CST on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:09:21 PM EST
    Sure, there are differences between the candidates.  But when you compare them to say, the differences between the parties, and political agendas as far as what direction the country should be headed, they are fairly close.  So when it comes to a general election scenario, yes, they have similar policies.

    Also, while you may think that Obama won't fight hard enough for the things you believe in, just remember, at least he isn't fighting for the OTHER SIDE - like McCain will.  (praising some republicans is very different from BEING one)

    Also, frankly, the whole "respect" thing kills me.  George Bush is great at respecting the little man (unless you are foreign), but he still implements terrible policy for them.

    Parent

    I don't want her on the ticket (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:45:42 PM EST
    unless she's at the top.  I'd rather see her become senate majority leader and run again in 2012.  I really don't see Obama and his baggage winning in November, regardless of VP...sorry...and I don't want her to be on a losing ticket.  

    I am starting to embrace the very real possibility that he will get the nomination.  It sickens me, but I've been saying the serenity prayer 1,000 a day and this definitely falls under the "accept the things I cannot change" part.  

    As much as I don't like the idea (none / 0) (#4)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:27:34 AM EST
    I think it is most definitely the ONLY way to heal the party.  I want HRC to win the nom simply because I know she'll ask Obama.  I just know it.

    Ditto (none / 0) (#5)
    by AnninCA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:29:12 AM EST
    for me.  Hillary will handle him as VP.

    However, not ditto the other way.

    She scares him.  :)

    Parent

    Who goes first? (none / 0) (#7)
    by lambert on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:33:51 AM EST
    Just asking...

    Polls? (none / 0) (#65)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:35:28 AM EST
    Ha!  OK, polls now state that 48% want Clinton on top compared with 40% for Obama.  51% now believe Obama will get the nom.    

    58% believe Obama dumped Wright for political reasons, 50% of Dems and Indies and 70% of Repubs believe Obama shares some of Wright's values.  If Obama is VP, it will be harder for Repubs to attack.

    Finally, more of Clinton supporters will vote for McCain and more of Clinton supporters will stay home.

    That's polls for now.  I await IN/NC for erosion of demographics for the candidates.

    Parent

    has Hillary used her gender for votes? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Josey on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:34:37 AM EST
    I remember Obama's Oprahpalooza, but don't remember Hillary's Womenpalooza.
    She was asked about this on Nightline last night -another "gotcha" - why hasn't she given a major speech on gender? Hillary said this is reflected by her being in the presidential race. (something like that)


    Mixed feelings (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sunshine on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:44:29 AM EST
    I don't really want to see a unity ticket but if Obama doesn't offer Hillary the VP, I think that her supporters will feel dissed..  This would also make the elite rumor more positive...  If Hillary is the nominee, she should offer the VP to Obama and I don't see the same side effects...  Maybe both candidates should be offered and refuse..  This may stop hurt feelings...

    I think we'll feel dissed (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:50:07 AM EST
    If FL and MI aren't included, like, yesterday.


    Parent
    I think the DNC is feeling it (none / 0) (#81)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:30:41 PM EST
    although you can't tell from this article, but the DNC is hurting for cash....

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10031.html

    Parent

    Au Contraire (none / 0) (#36)
    by goldberry on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:02:42 AM EST
    If she's offered the VP slot, it will be an insult after she's more than earned the top spot.  And if she took it, I'd have no respect for her.  And no, it wouldn't make me like Obama more, not even one little bit.  I won't be happy until he goes back to the senate for more seasoning.  

    Parent
    It can not be done with out Fla and Mich being (none / 0) (#16)
    by Salt on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:45:35 AM EST
    resolved now.  And the DNC Pelosi types are doing more damage than either Obama or Clinton that's you problem that's why folks will swing.

    Bowers has it right (none / 0) (#17)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:46:32 AM EST
    when he says, "As such, wasn't this really all about identity from the start? For a primary campaign to be based on identity instead of on policy is a ticking time bomb for any coalition"

    This is precisely, exactly what ticked me off about Obama putting himself forward for the presidency from the very beginning.  He had no significant policy differences from the people already in the race and no salient experience compared to the others, so the only real reason for his candidacy was his race, which meant he had to be divisive by the very definition of his candidacy.


    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:50:56 AM EST
    Obama has a perfect right to believe he would be a better President and to run on that basis.

    Parent
    Except for those two pesky states (none / 0) (#76)
    by Chimster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:36:24 PM EST
    Michigan and Florida. They are stumbling blocks on his "perfect right" path.

    Parent
    Unity, it's not just. . . (none / 0) (#21)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:49:40 AM EST
    for Republicans any more!

    (Indeed, with the fraying of their coalition, it may not be for Republicans anymore at all).

    Fraying? (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by daryl herbert on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:09:18 PM EST
    Huckabee and Romney represent the two parts of the Republican coalition (the very religious, and the business/capitalism wing).  They are united when it comes to supporting McCain's candidacy.  Unity.

    Mitt dropped out fairly early to avoid a religious identity politics meltdown within the GOP.  He let Huck (and to a much lesser extent, McCain) get away with the Mormon-baiting and went quietly into the night.  He spared the Republican Party an internally divisive battle over whether it's okay to hate Mormons.  (As a result, the answer is: for now, yes, it's okay for Republicans to hate Mormons.)  Unity.

    Mitt dropped out at CPAC to give McCain a chance to win over the arch-conservatives there, who were split 50/50 between Romney and Huckabee.  The only thing they could agree on was that they hated the backstabber/pro-Amnesty McCain.  Except with Romney out, the CPAC conferencegoers recognized that McCain would be the nominee, so they rallied around him.  So McCain won love from the "Islam == Naziism" bumper stickers crowd.  Unity.

    Even Tom Tancredo, whose signature issue is closing the borders, endorsed McCain.  Unity.

    Republicans have it (they're scared stiff, given the unpopularity of Bush and the war).  Dems assumed that this election would be a cakewalk in light of those factors, and the fact that they would be running against a typical Republican like Romney.  At this point, all bets are off.  Dems could certainly use a little unity right now, but I don't think they'll find it with a unity ticket.

    Parent

    The DNC are responsible for all this (none / 0) (#34)
    by Sunshine on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:00:26 AM EST
    This is what happens when the Big Wigs try to pick the candidate and put them on a pedistal and create wonderful stories about them...  The public will find out before the election and the real personality will come out...   Didn't you know when Kerry was nominated that we were also be nominating Jane Fonda....  Like now, if we nominate Obama, we will also be nominating Jeremiah Wright....

    100% Agreement (none / 0) (#47)
    by Chimster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:19:10 AM EST
    I've always wanted this ticket since the race began. I remember at the very beginning, all of the Republican talking heads were worried about a Clinton/Obama ticket. They claimed that combination would be unstoppable.

    I bought into this concept back then when Hillary was way ahead, and I still have the same enthusiasm for it. The perfect piece to the puzzle for me is that Hillary is Presidential material. The tough one to get us where we need to be before W screwed it up.

    As Hillary said, it'll take a Clinton to clean up the Bush mess again. And 4 or 8 years later, it will be the perfect place for Barrack to move from VP into the Presidential spot. Race matters will have adjusted. Peace and prosperity will be making a comeback. And Obama won't have to get his hands dirty.


    Too early to even speculate about it (none / 0) (#59)
    by feet on earth on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:28:12 AM EST
    Let's the results of the primary roll out and the dust to settle first.  


    Huzzah! (none / 0) (#70)
    by buhdydharma on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:50:26 AM EST
    I don't see it happening, but as sweetthings says in the first post, the offer MUST be made.

    The Huzzah! is for any and all attempts at healing and coming together, thanks BTD!

    Huzzah!

    Unity, Yes; These Two Together, No (none / 0) (#78)
    by cdalygo on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:58:50 PM EST
    A few months ago I could see have this argument. But that was prior to Obama unraveling before our eyes (poor campaign skills, exposure of holes in his resume, and his disdainful attitude toward HRC and her supporters).

    Bottom line the VP must be able to take the reigns and he cannot. It's more than his lack of experience, it's his lack of judgment.

    Having said all that, I agree the campaign has fractured the party. Obviously either African Americans or women would feel disappointment in zero-sum game for top spot. That means the winner reaches out to the other coalition for a candidate. Nor will I stand for this to be called"pandering" because it involves gender and race. After all we call it "political reality" when we pick VP candidates by geography.

    I believe the majority of his supporters will accept this move. Obviously the more strident supporters in blogs and MSM will freak out but they have discredited themselves. The political politicians will kiss and make up with Clintons (though Dean and Brazille are finished). More importantly, I believe this will reassure members of the African American community that their votes are not being disregarded (though many are trying to accuse the Clintons of making that calculation).

    OK BTD (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:36:01 PM EST
    after you pushing and pushing maybe you're right. It seems that the process needs to play itself out first though. Something else could pop up on Obama that we don't know about yet.

    Why would Obama agree to to be (none / 0) (#90)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:28:38 PM EST
    VP? No one has answered this question satisfactorily. He is the frontrunner. He has overwheling momentum among SD's over Clinton, who had at least a 100 SD head start. A Clinton victory is mathematically impossible. So, again, why would Obama agree?

    one reason would be to (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:59:19 PM EST
    prove himself to the vast numbers of voters who don't think he has enough experience, has too much baggage, and is all about himself.

    Parent
    No politician in the world would give up (none / 0) (#105)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:45 PM EST
    a sure nomination in order to prove himself. This is not a serious answer to my question

    Parent
    2024 delegates. (4.00 / 0) (#91)
    by sweetthings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:36:16 PM EST
    Whichever candidate reaches 2024 first will be at the head of the ticket. I don't think anyone is assuming that either candidate would agree to be VP before someone hits that number. Or at least I'm not.

    Parent
    He will be at 2020 sometime in June (none / 0) (#106)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:28:07 PM EST
    at that point should he still agree to be Clinton's VP?

    Parent
    2024 (none / 0) (#107)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:28:26 PM EST
    Our best hope, (none / 0) (#103)
    by oldpro on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:56:22 PM EST
    perhaps our only hope, is more likely to be an entirely different 'unity ticket...' Gore/Clinton.

    We must find a way to avoid nominating a sure loser whose campaign so cynically deliberately divided the party and made racism, sexism, ageism. identity politics and class warfare the new face of the Democratic Party.

    The only way I can see is for Hillary to nominate Al Gore, ask her delegates to vote for him, with the understanding that he will select her as running mate.  That would heal a huge rift in the party...put the grownups back in charge...tamp down the AA hysteria over 'stealing the nomination from Obama who deserves it'...for everyone knows that Al was the guy who had the election stolen from him and if anyone is 'entitled' to be the Dems president, it's Al.

    I think it's possible...not likely, maybe...but possible.

    Otherwise, I think the party is doomed...

    I think Unity Ticket is doomed (none / 0) (#110)
    by Rainsong on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:50:35 PM EST
    This whole primary has been reflecting an internal Party power struggle. The anti-Clinton faction are desperate to keep their power-bases, which they won't lose under a McCain Administration, but might under a Clinton one. It doesn't matter to them if they lose the GE or split the voter base in the process.