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Obama To Spend Tues. Night in Iowa, Possibly Will Claim Victory

Barack Obama will return to Iowa Tuesday night. The New York Times says it may be to "claim victory" and declare himself the Democratic nominee. His campaign views winning a majority of 2025 pledged and unpledged delegates victory.

Will ignoring the popular vote total in Florida backfire on him? In addition to the 2.3 million who voted in Michigan and Florida, there are 17 million or so Hillary supporters who think those votes should count before we pick a nominee.

A new poll out shows Obama in third place behind McCain and Clinton among rural voters in America. They comprise 23% of the voting public.

Hillary runs even with McCain in the poll but Obama trails McCain by 9 points.

Update: Just wanted to add that the Democratic nomination is not Obama's to claim until one of two things happens: Either Hillary withdraws from the race or all the delegate votes, pledged, unpledged and superdelegate, are counted at the convention.

Comments now closed.

< Hillary Clinton on CNN's Late Edition | Obama, Iowa and Immigration >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I would imagine (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by OldCoastie on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:05:43 AM EST
    that the Super-D's are going to be a little bit insulted... apparently BO doesn't realize he still must go to the convention.

    how funny would it be (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:07:33 AM EST
    if he gave a victory speech and the supers cast their votes for hillary because they felt dissed?  just thinking about it makes me grin like a cheshire cat.  a girl can dream, right?

    [ Parent ]
    O/T ... No Quarter Sez Jeremiah Wright Is (none / 0) (#103)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:10:35 AM EST
    speaking live from Trinity Church....there is a link posted if you want to listen.

    [ Parent ]
    Or, Maybe the DNC will do a bait & switch (none / 0) (#175)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:26:12 PM EST
    on the Republicans. Get them all ready to battle Obama, and at the last minute give Clinton the nomination to throw the Republicans off their game.

    [ Parent ]
    The latest coming from the GOP (none / 0) (#191)
    by Cream City on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:50:12 PM EST
    as I read on a blog to which I wandered by mistake is rather startling -- but may not be swiftboating on the way, because I checked some more, and it seems that it's true.

    Obama is not an African American!  Not just that he's not one by the usual definition of someone from the heritage of being held in slavery; I knew that.  But it turns out that his heritage is Arab, not African (and thus the Arab name of Barack, which is the more familiar Baruch in Hebrew, as well as the middle name which shall not be named here).  And in Kenya, the distinction is considered significant.

    And ye gods, consider what the Rebubs will do with this.  Not that it will matter to the African American community, which is sensible and well knows that its heritage is widely varied.  And it also knows that, as I knew, it's not unusual that Obama's heritage is not from slaves but from (on his mother's side) slaveholders -- as sadly, after all, many African Americans are descended from slaveholders in the South here.

    But the genealogists doing the oppo research for the Repubs also turn up that, as was typical of Arabs in Kenya and often the reason that they came there, Obama's ancestors were among those in the slave trade in Africa.  I wonder if the Repubs are planning some covert campaign in the AA conservative weeklies (and there are many).  Weird stuff.  And it suggests how much oppo research must be being prepared right now.

    Of course, the oppo research on Clinton is dog-eared by now, so they'll be ready to switch if needed.  But we've heard it before, so it would have far less impact.

    [ Parent ]

    This information has been around awhile (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:58:50 PM EST
    Obama has less than half the required percentage of African to qualify as an African American. He is Arab American by the standards. I don't think that is a big problem.

    However, FOX news did something very interesting Friday night. A quick blurb of "who are the campaign volunteers" for the two candidates. They interviewed two college youth from Hillary's camp, and two from Obama's. Obama's, though, was a young Muslim woman dressed in traditional scarf and long dress. I think they are previewing one of the avenues they plan to go down.

    Obama's Kenyan relatives will probably become a big topic. Especially since he campaigned for his cousin. They appear to be less than stellar leaders.

    [ Parent ]

    LA Times Article Disputes Obama's Claim (none / 0) (#202)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:08:09 PM EST
    His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended.

    That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.

    The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi, who describes himself as among Obama's closest childhood friends. LA Times

    Now I really wouldn't care if Obama was actually a Muslim but Obama has strongly denied that he had any connection to Islam and this disputes that claim.


    [ Parent ]

    Oh oh, that explains the GOP blog (none / 0) (#238)
    by Cream City on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:08:16 PM EST
    excitement about him being Arab American, blah blah blah.  Getting into the statistical genealogical stuff does not a good ad make.  But combine it with this, if there really is evidence, and it's an ad.

    A stupid ad -- and I'm all for everyone learning more about all cultures and religions.  But then, a stupid ad did in Kerry's campaign.  Of course, it really was the lack of reaction to the ad, so maybe Obama's smarter campaign is ready to respond to this one.  I can't imagine how to spin it, though.

    [ Parent ]

    I Would Think The LA Times Has Verified (5.00 / 1) (#244)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:32:43 PM EST
    this prior to publishing the story and they actually give the name of his friend. Also included in the article

    In his autobiography, Dreams From My Father, Obama briefly mentions Koranic study and describes his public school, which accepted students of all religions, as "a Muslim school."

    "In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell my mother that I made faces during Koranic studies," Obama wrote. "My mother wasn't overly concerned. 'Be respectful,' she'd say. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I would close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended. Just a parched old nun and 30 brown children, muttering words."

    So again, even Obama's own words contradict previous statements he has made on his background. More to do with credibility as far as I'm concerned.


    [ Parent ]

    I've lost faith in the super delegates... (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:14:18 AM EST
    ...more likely rather than being insulted the rest of them will be tripping over themselves to get on the news and endorse Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    I Agree (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:29:17 AM EST
    The Dem leadership is bound and determined that Obama will be the nominee even if it risks the WH.

    Fear of losing the AA community and the lust after those big bucks will be the deciding factor IMO.

    [ Parent ]

    Does Anyone Agree That Perhaps The Less (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:32:36 AM EST
    than bright dem leaders should be considering how they are dissing the hispanic voters.  This is a huge voting bloc that should not be discounted, yet all we have heard is don't upset the AA's...we need them.  And let's not forget the working class non-color voters.

    [ Parent ]
    Here is the perfect illustration (none / 0) (#231)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:56:43 PM EST
    of Obama's current attitude about the nomination. ENJOY!!

    [ Parent ]
    P.S. Swallow before clicking link. Heh. nt (5.00 / 1) (#237)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:03:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    that they don't give a daxx about the (5.00 / 4) (#81)
    by hellothere on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:00:20 AM EST
    votes of the average worker, woman, boomer tells me they are not my party.

    [ Parent ]
    the AA vote (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by sancho on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:03:52 PM EST
    is the most reliable dem. vote. this is true no matter who the dems nominate. white elites speaking for AAs and ventriloquizing their (the AA) position to threaten other whites--this is the DNC position. it is called playing the race card. hillary does not need it. obama supporters (and perhpaps obama) have made it the path to the nomination. it won't work in the general.  

    [ Parent ]
    And I recently read (5.00 / 0) (#206)
    by oculus on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:12:32 PM EST
    40% of Hispanics voted for Bush in 2004.  Not a given.  

    [ Parent ]
    He Thinks he is NEO ~ "The One" (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Mrwirez on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:08:14 AM EST
    From Wikipedia: Neo

    The character Neo lives in the world of the Matrix, an illusory construct in which humans are neurally connected to a gigantic computer system (aka DailyKos) which simulates the world of the late 20th century. This system has been developed by intelligent machines to keep the human population as tools for the machines' survival - the machines use a form of fusion in addition to the bio-electrical energy of human beings. .......

    Ladies and Gentleman, I present you:
    THE OBAMABOT

    Do You Think He Will Be Wearing This Outfit? (none / 0) (#106)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:12:29 AM EST
    potentially anti-climactic... (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by kredwyn on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:09:31 AM EST
    So he declares himself the victor.

    Clinton picks up KY and more votes in other places.

    In terms of dramatic tension, it would seem that to claim the victory so far ahead of the convention...only to get kicked in the shins by more primary votes just seems to deflate the narrative.

    Also a declaration of victory when there are outstanding votes and issues (big issues) could be incredibly counter-productive.

    And they say that Clinton is weakening him... (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:16:51 AM EST
    ...IMHO he weakens himself by pulling stunts like these. If he is as inevitable as they would have us believe, he really doesn't have to do anything except show up at the convention. I'm not sure what they are trying to "prove" with all these PR gestures.

    [ Parent ]
    When they say Clinton is weakening him (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by Radical Faith on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM EST
    what they really mean is Clinton's strengths in certain remaining contests is revealing his pre-existing weaknesses.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree with setting the narrative (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Fabian on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:10:42 AM EST
    "See!  I'm the nominee!  I announced and all those pundits and talking heads agreed with me!"

    "Now anyone who says that I'm not the actual, confirmed-by-delegate-vote nominee is trying to take my nomination away from me!"

    "Agents of McCain!  Clinton Operatives!  Devil's spawn!  My mighty media allies and my loyal blogging buddies will attack and harrass the disloyal traitors!  I WILL PREVAIL or take the Democratic Party down with me!"

    [the above is purely speculation and should be considered fictional]


    [ Parent ]

    Gotta love this: (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by oculus on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:19:14 PM EST
    "Obviously, we don't want to wake up the morning after we become the nominee and not be prepared," said Obama campaign manager David Plouffe.
     [AP.]

    [ Parent ]
    She IS weakening him (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:29:46 PM EST
    he's absolutely exhausted and can't keep up with her anymore. He is bored with the primary. This speaks, no, it screams, that he can't stay focused on anything from beginning to end.


    [ Parent ]
    Wow. That's unprecedented (5.00 / 11) (#6)
    by Exeter on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:10:47 AM EST
    Even McCain waited until Mike Huckabee -- who actually had NO mathematical chance to win -- dropped out. I know I sound like a broken record, but when you feel that you can break away from the way things are always done because its a woman candidate on the other side, it's sexist. He would never do this if it were John Edwards.

    I have a feeling that if this contest were (5.00 / 6) (#29)
    by Anne on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:27:14 AM EST
    between Obama and Edwards, it would be Edwards who would be the racist - Obama would be using Edwards' southern background to a fare-thee-well.  Not to mention the whole trial lawyer thing - John would no longer be the champion of the little guy hurt by the big corporation, he would be John Edwards, the opportunistic and money-hungry lawyer out for himself, compared to Mr. Community Organizer With the Low-Paying Job.

    I don't think Obama has met the person yet for whom he could not find and exploit something as a wedge - the only advantage with Clinton us that he has an extra - her gender.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama bashed 'trial lawyers' & unions (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Josey on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:53:12 AM EST
    in radio ads just before the Iowa caucus because a union 527 aired a pro-Edwards TV ad.
    Normally, campaigns tell the media when they release ads, but the Obama campaign didn't inform the media about this radio ad until it had been running for 10 days.
    Obama has run a very dirty campaign!

    [ Parent ]
    come the ge, just remove clinton's name (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by hellothere on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:01:36 AM EST
    and add mccain's. add a few more dog whistles and there you have obama's campaign.

    [ Parent ]
    That is going to be interesting... (5.00 / 6) (#119)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:21:47 AM EST
    how is Obama going to justify calling on McCain to drop out of the race??

    <snark>

    [ Parent ]

    He was born in the Canal Zone! (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Radical Faith on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:10:24 PM EST
    He's ineligible!

    Joking, but I'm sort of afraid Obama & Company may actually pull this stunt.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, that is irrelevant.. (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:31:52 PM EST
    If a child is born to an American citizen, no matter where they are born, the child is automatically an American citizen. And children born overseas to parents in service, be it military or diplomatic, are automatically registered with the Embassy as citizens, and issued a passport. Most babies travel on their mother's passport, some get their own. I remember watching my mother get all our passports out and handing them to us as we went through customs when I was a child. The current baby was on hers, but we all had our own as soon as we could walk. And to this day, I have to get a copy of my registration with the Embassy in lieu of a birth certificate since the German hospital didn't issue certificates, they gave out plates with the baby's name and birthdate on it. Mine got broken during a move, and besides, plates aren't official documents accepted by the bureaucracy. So the fact that McCain was born in the Canal Zone is irrelevant. And if Obama, supposedly a constitutional lawyer, tries to play that card it will show up his ignorance of the requirements for citizenship. Good move, proving you don't know what you are talking about. LOL

    [ Parent ]
    Actually is not a matter of citizenship. (none / 0) (#186)
    by Florida Resident on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:40:21 PM EST
    It's a matter of being born in one of the 50 states.  For example, if you are born in PR, USVI, etc you are a citizen but you can not be president because you were not born in a state.  The thing is that children born to Military, diplomats, etc. who are stationed overseas are considered as born in whatever state the parents are residents of, sort of like absentee ballots to vote where you resided before you went overseas.  Since I registered in California in 1967 before leaving for Vietnam I was able to vote absentee in 68 had I not registered in Ca I would have still been considered a PR resident and unable to vote.  Perfect example I was born in PR both my parents were born in NY because they were not military or stationed but residing in PR when I was born I am ineligible to be president.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, but none of that applies to McCain (none / 0) (#187)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:43:33 PM EST
    and I was addressing the citizenship question raised by the previous poster. McCain was born in the Canal Zone because his father was stationed there, not just living abroad or in a territory.

    [ Parent ]
    But has "naturally born" (none / 0) (#227)
    by Exeter on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:47:04 PM EST
    in the constitution ever been legally tested?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, it has. Not by a presidential (none / 0) (#234)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:01:56 PM EST
    candidate, but it has held up in court. I have heard of a couple of foreign service kids who had to go to court and prove citizenship because they were born abroad and had no US birth certificate. The courts held that the laws regarding citizenship mandated that they were citizens. That would also apply to military offspring. Besides, if he was born in the base hospital, he was legally born on US territory, not overseas.

    [ Parent ]
    Congress Has Already Addressed That Issue (none / 0) (#205)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:12:06 PM EST
    With questions - however serious - about whether Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., is eligible to run for president since he was born outside U.S. borders on an American Naval base, Sens. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo. today introduced a non-binding resolution expressing the sense of the U.S. Senate that McCain qualifies as a "natural born Citizen," as specified in the Constitution and eligible for the highest office in the land.

    Co-sponsors include Sens. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, and Barack Obama, D-Illinois; Leahy said he anticipates it will pass unanimously. ABC



    [ Parent ]
    ha! to this voter, (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by sancho on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:12:53 PM EST
    edwards's support of obama right after wva confirmed the view of him as an opportunistic lawyer out for himself, one who uses people's misfortune (in this case obama's loss combined with hillary's media vulnerability) to further his own status. i never believed he was a populist candidate so much as one who recognized that was a demographic he could plausibly occupy. he sold out health care by endorsing obama. and for what? to stamp on hillary's big win and thus the possibility of realizing his alleged special interest. along with obama, edwards was the other elite voter candidate. with the latte crowd this cycle, turns out identity politics beat poverty politics. but the elite voters' gas tanks are stiull full and their insurance/health care still valid. so who cares, right?  

    [ Parent ]
    What I heard, Jeralyn, is that he is going (5.00 / 16) (#7)
    by Anne on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:11:09 AM EST
    to claim that he has won more than half of pledged delegates, and that no candidate who has won more than half has never not gone on to be the nominee; I guess he will allow the rest of the country to supply the "ergo" to his syllogism.

    I said this yesterday, but I think I might actually enjoy the juxtaposition of Obama trying to start a general election campaign on a night when he will lose KY, and could lose Oregon, a continuation of his losing trend for the last 2 1/2 months, his continuing decline in crucial sectors of the demograhic, and more noise than ever that significant chunks of Clinton supporters will not be voting for him if he is the nominee - I think that would take "audacious" to a new level.

    I have to think that this is just the Edwards announcement redux: on a losing night, plan an event designed to take the spotlight off Clinton's win(s) and take people's eyes off the truth.  I swear, the media is so easily distracted by the bright and shiny object that they must be the best audience ever for anyone doing magic tricks.

    Will he point out... (5.00 / 6) (#14)
    by ineedalife on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:17:25 AM EST
    that no candidate has lost the popular vote and gone on to be the nominee? No, I don't think so either.

    Will the media point that out? No, I don't think so either.

    [ Parent ]

    In a normal election year, with sane media (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by Cream City on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:32:16 AM EST
    such a silly event as this would be the butt of a lot of jokes by journalists about moving goal posts to the 50 yard line -- now, wouldn't that shorten a lot of games and seasons? -- and more.

    But this is the most awful campaign I've seen, and I've seen many, in terms of its impact on the future of the country -- especially its impact on the majority of Americans, women and girls.  And that has in large part been because of media, far from the halcyon days of Murrow, Cronkite, and more.

    So Obama will get away with this stupid event of self-coronation, surrounded by the court jesters.  I will go read a good book.  I've got a long book list to work through to remain sane in months to come.

    [ Parent ]

    Well The Media Hasn't Been Particurly Sane (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:04:24 AM EST
    for a while but I agree with the rest of your post. Maybe the comedians will do the job since the press won't.

    [ Parent ]
    I have been reading the media (5.00 / 5) (#137)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:40:54 AM EST
    carefully, and the tone is changing. More stories about Obama's shortcomings, and more criticism of him is appearing in the MSM. They are starting the slow turn to McCain, and getting ready to eviscerate Obama. Right now, they are setting him up so that they can say, "We mentioned this earlier, and here is the rest of it". Then, if he gets the nomination, they will pour vitriol into those cracks in his armor and that will be the end of Obama. He isn't ready for the big time, and he can't stand the scrutiny he is going to get. Neither can his wife. Those two are going to be so surprised when all their "good friends" in the media turn on them and rend them limb from limb. Of course, the media will be using ammo thoughtfully provided by the Obamas. Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    And at the same as the blackout (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Cream City on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:54:38 PM EST
    of coverage on Clinton . . . yep, the combination of with finally vetting Obama tells us that the general election is underway in the media, who played their part in his candidacy and now will do their usual part to tear him down and get a Republican elected.

    It will not be pretty, but it will be predictable.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, the tone on Clinton has (5.00 / 1) (#224)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:42:11 PM EST
    changed too, positively. It's hard to see unless you do what I do and parse the same writers over and over as they put out new stories. But even the headlines about Hillary are nicer in tone. And the pictures are getting better to. They only used to use ones that were angry looking, the ones where we know she was making a point in a speech but the media runs to "show her real self". Now there are more of her smiling, talking to people instead of giving speeches. The Obama pictures have changed too. More awkward poses, more frowns, fewer halo photos, fewer arms outstretched preacher type photos. Now Obama is being pictured like a politician with issues rather than the saintly figure the MSM pictured him to be earlier. As Frank Lloyd Wright once said, "God is in the details". And I look at the details, and they tell me that the god of elections is starting to frown on Obama. Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    This Has Been SOP For The MSM (5.00 / 1) (#236)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:02:45 PM EST
    They decide which Dem candidate to build up and which candidates to tear down or ignore. Then once their candidate is the nominee they decide that they suddenly need to vet them and go back and pursue the stories that they ignored prior to the selection. Nothing really new here, which is why I never bought into Obama maintaining his "media darling" status after he became the nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    The interesting thing is the timing (5.00 / 1) (#240)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:18:34 PM EST
    After WV is when it changed. That is what I find interesting.

    [ Parent ]
    Why would the MSM be showing Clinton.. (none / 0) (#246)
    by AX10 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:55:20 PM EST
    is such positive light these days?

    [ Parent ]
    Should this come to pass. (5.00 / 1) (#245)
    by AX10 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:53:51 PM EST
    Obama and his wife would have earned every ounce of it.  Unlike Gore and Kerry, the Obama's have no problem engaging in Rovian tactics against their opponents.  I was outraged when the pile ons against Gore and Kerry happened, because they do not play that kind of dirty game.  The Obama's however, love to engage in the "Rove Game".  If the conclusions of your observations are correct, Obama is going to get what he deserves, and he won't be able to handle it.

    [ Parent ]
    very interesting... (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by kredwyn on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:18:06 AM EST
    he is going to claim that he has won more than half of pledged delegates, and that no candidate who has won more than half has never not gone on to be the nominee; I guess he will allow the rest of the country to supply the "ergo" to his syllogism.

    So even the declaration of victory--the one that's been talked about for the past week or so--will wind up being an implied argument rather than an explicit one.

    Great way to make the declaration while being able to say "I didn't actually declare myself victor...now did I?"

    [ Parent ]

    Nominees and disenfranchisement (5.00 / 4) (#60)
    by Davidson on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:44:35 AM EST
    When has a nominee ever depended on the disenfranchisement of two states to "win" the nomination?  And the famous "rules" allow the superdelegates to choose the strongest GE candidate if neither candidate can claim the nomination on pledged delegates alone.

    Obama is going to do what he always does when he's in trouble: distract and shame.  People will think, "Gosh, no one has ever been denied the nomination before in his position and if the Democrats do that they'll surely be racists!"

    Why is he doing this if he's so sure he's got the nomination in the bag?  The last thing he should want is to tell the GOP it's OK to start attacking him, especially when he's up against John "Maverick" McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama never had a 50-state strategy (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by Josey on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:14:55 AM EST
    it was more like a 50-City strategy of huge rallies. That's why he first began calling for Hillary to GET OUT on Feb. 20 - before TX, OH, WV, KY....
    He had no intention of campaigning for blue collar and rural voters and focused on cities and liberal areas. He even dissed John Edwards 'poverty' message after he'd suspended his campaign.
    Hillary was leading in WV by large margins weeks before the primary. If Obama had been "concerned" he could have made Edwards (or another White person) an offer sooner and Edwards could have been campaigning for him in those states.
    But Obama wasn't interested in "those voters." And after his "bitter" remarks in mid-April, calling Democrats "racists" clinging to their guns and religion, I'm wondering if he was afraid to campaign in certain states.

    [ Parent ]
    Josey..."Some Say" There Have Been (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:35:56 PM EST
    threats; but after crying "wolf" so many times by obama's camp, I don't even know whether to believe it.  If that is the case, he better borrow the pope's little bubble car if he does get the nomination, if he is that afraid.

    [ Parent ]
    If Obama (5.00 / 15) (#8)
    by Makarov on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:13:54 AM EST
    decides to coronate himself formally, I think it will generate a more significant backlash from Clinton supporters.  There are many long time Democrats, myself and several family members among them, who are struggling with the decision to support Obama in November.  None of us will vote for John McCain, but the outrageous behavior of Obama's campaign, highlighted by the same in the media, is giving us pause when we think about casting a vote FOR the junior Senator from Illinois.

    Moving the goalposts from an already incorrect starting point (2025, instead of 2209) to a mere majority of pledged delegates, many of them from Republican states and caucuses, is just pouring salt in the wounds.  This is not the way to unify the party.  This is merely a last, desperate grab to wrest the nomination from Hillary Clinton and her large coalition representing women, senior citizens, hispanics and moderate and low income voters.

    Obama rightly fears what may happen on May 31.  Assuming the FL and MI delegations are recognized, then there will be no doubt on any scale that Hillary Clinton will be the popular vote winner of the nominating process.  Yet, I don't understand his motivation in declaring mission accomplished before the remaining votes are counted, before he reaches his own magic number of 2025.  Unless, of course, he suspects there are not enough undeclared superdelegates to push him across that threshold.

    In my view, we'd be better off deciding the nominee at the convention than declaring victory before all votes have been cast or counted.

    I wonder if some of the supers (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:22:08 AM EST
    are secretly hoping that Obama digs himself a hole of his obvious own making that he is completely unable to get out of.

    The "Mission Accomplished" speech could be just the shovel he needs.

    As we know, in some states, nearly a majority of the population say that they'll either vote for McCain or stay home if he's the nominee.  Does he really think proclaiming himself the winner will make these people like him more?? (Answer:  no)  What he's doing is proving beyond a shadow of a doubt, his arrogance.  

    [ Parent ]

    Also (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:26:03 AM EST
    The reason I'm saying "some supers are [possibly] secretly hoping" is because I think many people with common sense agree with Cokie -- the Democrats haven't chosen the most electable candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    the dems haven't chosen an electable (none / 0) (#94)
    by hellothere on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:04:54 AM EST
    candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    Of Course It Has To Go To The Convention (5.00 / 6) (#35)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:29:53 AM EST
    and it appears that obama's goal is to muddy the
    waters and make people think this is not how it is supposed to be.  Mission Accomplished...told you he is just like bush.

    [ Parent ]
    Replay of Florida (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by Davidson on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:51:47 AM EST
    Obama will make it so everyone assumes the nominee so if the Democrats pick Clinton it'll look like he's been denied.  He's been doing this for a while, encouraging the media to write Clinton's chances as "stealing" the nomination from him.

    However, there's a few key differences: Bush wasn't despised by as many Republicans as Obama is by Democrats as there's a growing backlash against him and Hillary Clinton is no Al Gore who'll merely roll over to seem "nice."

    [ Parent ]

    obama Does Have Playing The Victim Down To (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:05:37 AM EST
    a science; but I sincerely believe this isn't playing well for him as much as it did.  As for backlash, can't think of anyone who deserves it more.  Don't forget, you can fool some of the people, etc., etc., etc..

    [ Parent ]
    Yup, no one wants a victim in (5.00 / 5) (#149)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:54:01 AM EST
    the White House. We want a winner who won't quit. Someone who exudes confidence and has the political chops to back it up.
    That isn't Obama. It's Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    FlaDemFem....You Are Soooooo Smart!! (none / 0) (#182)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:33:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You're 100% correct and I (5.00 / 0) (#217)
    by Mark Woods on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:23:16 PM EST
    will be part of that backlash.  I will not vote for Obama under any circumstance, unless Clinton share 1/2 of his ticket or he share 1/2 of her ticket.

    He is going to be picketed and booed at with angry voters next week in FL my neighbors are promising me in Miami Beach.

    Did he really think we were going to welcome him as a conquering hero?

    Even though I've been a Democrat since 1977 I might get angry enough to actually vote for McCain in protest, too.

    Obama's surrogates keep saying the Clinton Democrats will 'get over their broken hearts' and 'come home' but they are seriously deluded, IMHO.

    [ Parent ]

    Celtics led Gm6; Comeback Cavs won + forced Gm7 (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Ellie on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:15:42 AM EST
    If it were up to a very sour Donna Brazile (who was on 'Dis Weak glowering at anyone who raised criticisms about Obama), the somewhat irritated Celtics would be holding a Mission Accomplished press conference instead of showing up for the formality of Game Seven. (EC Semis Cleveland Cavs @ Boston Celtics, Sun May 18, 2008 3:00PM ET)

    (Didn't see the bobbleheads other than to check times for Cavs/Celts)

    Will it not llok a lot like... (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Chesserct on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:16:24 AM EST
    Bush's "mission accomplished" speech when he continues to lose primaries after he claims this "victory", or has to fight for the nomination at the convention?

    I think the goal is to suppress the voter (5.00 / 6) (#56)
    by samanthasmom on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:42:27 AM EST
    turnout in Puerto Rico in hopes of limiting Hillary's popular vote.  Obama does better when fewer people vote.

    [ Parent ]
    We can only hope people see the likeness (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:03:51 AM EST
    SNL threw the Mission Accomplished battleship photo up last night. But, I'm sure the Obama supporters have heard the comparison and found a way to put on the blinders.

    If he actually does this, it HAS to backfire.

    Should it work, this party will have no choice but to examine whether it has any remaining value in its current state.


    [ Parent ]

    Many believe that the Clinton supporters will floc (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Buckeye on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:19:46 AM EST
    to Obama if he selects her as his VP.  Others say they will eventually come around - they would never vote for McCain.  We will see if that is true...I have my doubts.

    Obama will never select her as VP (5.00 / 8) (#39)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:31:55 AM EST
    Michelle won't let him. Hillary may select him as VP, if he will take the job. Frankly, it sounds like VP is the slot he is best fitted for. He can spend the term doing fundraising, giving speeches, writing another book, and being President of the Senate. That should fit his skill set very well. The grinding slog of being President just doesn't seem to be Obama's forte. It is Hillary's.

    [ Parent ]
    If you had listened (5.00 / 6) (#47)
    by samanthasmom on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:36:44 AM EST
    to Steve Corbett's radio show on WILK on Friday afternoon, your doubts that many Clinton supporters will vote McCain would be far fewer.  This was a small town radio talk show host who usually spends time on the year singing parodies to polka tunes (I love it!) receiving phone calls and emails from Hillary supporters from all over the country because the day before he had said that he was "turning Obama down as a candidate". At one point he thought he was talking to a listener from Wyoming, PA and discovered she was from the state of Wyoming. The hurt and frustration from the callers was palpable.

    [ Parent ]
    first, obama will never off the (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by hellothere on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:09:47 AM EST
    veep to clinton. that is a personal opinion. i happen to think that the real dislike that michelle has for certain groups and hillary in particular precludes it. that it will probably doom them to losing the general doesn't meant that much to them. they want to be the first at something. now they'll have it but at what cost. and after they lose, just how is this going to help the democratic party long term. the so called young voters don't like losers. the aa voters are generally reliable. i don't see them leaving if clinton is the nominee. the older voters just might not come back at all. i see the repubs reinventing themselves AGAIN. so just what have the democrats gained? NOTHING!

    [ Parent ]
    You don't understand.. (5.00 / 6) (#157)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:02:11 PM EST
    it's not about the Democrats, it's about Obama. If he gets the nomination, and loses to McCain, he will still be rich and famous. And in the history books as the first AA candidate to make it to the GE. He doesn't care about the Democratic party or its goals, he cares about Obama and his own goals. They have little to do, as far as I can see, with improving anything but his own stature and income.

    So if he goes down in flames, he will go write another book, make more money and the Democrats will have to dig themselves out by themselves. Even his fundraising numbers will go down hill, and I don't think he will put himself out for the party. His fees will go in his own pocket, not the DNC's. The Democrats will be left with the bill for the GE and the shattered party that Obama gave them. Obama will blame it all on Hillary or someone else. It's never his fault, right?

    [ Parent ]

    He's already set for money (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by befuddled on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:30:47 PM EST
    if I correctly understand the value of his voter database and mailing list. Somewhere I saw it valued at $200,000,000 over its useful information life. Not bad wages for 2 years campaigning even if he isn't elected. The Dems, probably Repubs too, should take steps to keep campaigns from turning into information trolling like this.

    [ Parent ]
    actually i do understand that. you are right (5.00 / 0) (#218)
    by hellothere on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:24:41 PM EST
    of course in your comments and thanks for adding that dimension to it. sadly it proves even more that obama doesn't give a dang about democrats of anything connected to it like you know voters.

    [ Parent ]
    When does OR start to count the vote? 10:00 PM? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by ineedalife on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:21:06 AM EST
    OR voting doesn't even close until after 10:00 IA time.  It will be hilarious if he pulls this stunt and the next morning he falls short.

    This may be part of the reason he is in Iowa (none / 0) (#120)
    by Marvin42 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:22:18 AM EST
    KY will be called big for Clinton quickly, then OR in the PST will have to wait until most of the country is sleep. It doesn't look good.

    So he does the speech in Iowa as a counter. Not a bad move, but it is stupid to declare himself any kind of winner.

    [ Parent ]

    What arrogance! (5.00 / 5) (#20)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:21:08 AM EST
    Not that I'm surprised - this is his SOP.

    My fantasy is he declares himself the winner, more votes come to Hillary, she suspends her campaign, more bad stuff trickles out over the summer about Obama, then at the convention, after hearing how wonderful he is for two days, and they graciously seat MI and FL, he's got his acceptance speech ready to go, and the votes start coming in off the floor, and Hillary gets the nomination - to everyone's surprise.  

    The MSM would love it because it would be a story for weeks, and it would take the shine off the Republican convention the next week.

    Game. Set. Match.

    I don't dislike Obama (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by akaEloise on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:21:52 AM EST
    I will vote for him, if he is the nominee.  I agree with him on most issues and I think that he has the potential to be a very good President, especially if he resists the temptation to be arrogant and chooses his Cabinet and advisors wisely and without regard to who they supported in the primary.  I don't believe that he could ever be as great a President as Hillary Clinton would be, if she were given the opportunity, but I think he could be very good.  And certainly, an Obama administration would be a million times better than a McCain one.

    So I hope that I'm not speaking completely out of partisan loyalty when I say this would be an incredibly stupid move for a smart man to make.  There is no possible advantage to declaring yourself the winner of a contest when there are still people who haven't had a chance to vote, when your opponent has not conceded, and when the official contest doesn't take place for another three months.  He's already been declared the presumptive nominee by a lot of party insiders, journalists, and talking heads, most of whom should know better.   Whatever extra momentum being the presumptive nominee will get him, he already has.  No one's mind will be changed as a result of this declaration -- at least, no one's mind will be changed in his favor.  I hope he doesn't do it.

    It's certainly true (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by frankly0 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:54:23 AM EST
    that Obama would promote far better policies than McCain, and would do, in that sense, some very real short term good should he become President.

    But my problem with Obama from Day One has been his tremendous potential to become another unpopular, intensely disliked President like Jimmy Carter, who will lose his clout to continue to make good things happen, will go down in resounding defeat in 2012, and will prove to be an albatross around the neck of Democrats for many cycles to come.

    To me, the question of voting for and supporting Obama is akin to the question of whether it would be right to vote for Jimmy Carter, anticipating the damage he would do to the Democratic brand years hence. From my point of view, the certainty one might have that Obama will prove out as a very destructive President for the Democratic brand is vastly higher than it might ever have been for Jimmy Carter before he was elected.

    While I disliked the nature of Obama's appeal very much from the beginning, I hardly expected that it would be demonstrated so concretely and vividly in the Democratic nomination process. The rejection of the Reagan Democrats -- a constituency that will continue to dominate Presidential elections for decades, given their location and numbers -- has been simply stunning.

    Obama might manage to ride the now ascendant Democratic brand to the Presidency (we'll see). But his perceived elitism, and the distrust of the man by working class voters, I do not see going away. I can't think of any politician more lacking in the "common touch" than Obama. When the Republican brand starts itself to resurge -- as it will when they are no longer in power, and can do what they do best, throw firebombs at the powers that be -- Obama's inherent faults will be entirely exposed, just as Bush's were when the 9/11 effect finally subsided.

    Obama's Presidency will not end well for the Democrats. The elitist wing of the Democratic Party can't prevail in the long run, due to its own personality and character faults.

    [ Parent ]

    I Definitely Don't Like The Way He Seems To (5.00 / 5) (#135)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:40:08 AM EST
    be restructuring the party. In the aftermath of the Unitary President, I don't trust anyone to have complete control of the party's funds or marginalizing outside interest groups. Also, so far his campaign has been one of demonizing various demographics and exclusionary tactics. It is almost like the Democratic Party is being morphed into the Obama Party which is structured somewhat like a Unity08 Party but with a foundation of the Daley machine and Delay like tactics. I also have concerns about what core Democratic values will be thrown under the bus. A Republican president IMO could not privatize Social Security but a so called Democratic President might be able to accomplish this task. Also, the only way that a party could continue with a base primarily consisting of the AA community, youth vote and "creative class" is to select a minority candidate who will capture 90% of the demographic. Throwing workers under the bus makes to sense at all to me. Don't like this new revised so called Democratic Party at all.  

    [ Parent ]
    We should start a campaign to have (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:11:29 PM EST
    the parents of the Obama followers cut off their allowances. See how enthusiastic they are when they have to get a job and be workers instead of spoiled brats who have had everything handed to them. Let's see how enthusiastic they are when they come home from an eight hour shift and their feet are so sore they can barely stand. Let's see how much money they give when they know how much work it took to earn that dollar, and it was their work that earned it. Let them be blue collar for a month or two and see what they think of Obama then. They will find out that hope tastes great if you put meringue on it, if they can afford the eggs to make the meringue.

    [ Parent ]
    Speaking of eggs, let 'em try food stamps (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Cream City on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    that will get them powdered eggs, ugh -- since their candidate likes to talk about when his mother went on food stamps.  Because she was a student, of course, but that would harm the narrative (including that he was poor, yet her student status then would point to him being from two parents with Ph.D.'s).

    I read a more careful vetting of that claim about food stamps, and he is careful to say his mother was on food stamps, as so many students are -- and he is careful in how he says it because those were the years -- most of his young years -- when he was not with her but was being raised by his well-off grandparents.

    I don't get why he keeps painting these deceptive  self-portrayals.  There is a good spin he could put on this story, an explanation of the good that the food-stamp program does in providing for many of us among the temporary poor, i.e., students, and an explanation of the importance of more programs to get more Americans educated -- and get more of those who have benefited from education and thus better lives to then see the worth of helping others.  But instead, it's another distorted narrative.  I don't get it.

    [ Parent ]

    so many ifs. you'll vote on if's? (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by hellothere on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:12:49 AM EST
    so far he hasn't come through on anything. take a look at his paper thin resume. he doesn't represent hope and change anymore or the end of racial division. please define why you would vote for someone who has put racial division to such levels? he doesn't promote anything for the american people such as health coverage. hillary does. i am truly wondering. thanks

    [ Parent ]
    And you find reason to hope? (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by miriam on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:04:40 PM EST
    You say: if he resists the temptation to be arrogant and chooses his Cabinet and advisors wisely.

    What evidence do we have that he is capable of either? We have plenty of evidence that he is not, or does not care to.  He has displayed arrogance over and over and I, for one, doubt the word humility is in his vocabulary.  He does not seem able to admit mistakes or take responsibility for them. He whines about racism when he loses and has a highly disturbing habit of blaming everyone but himself. (Whom does this characteristic remind you of?)  

    As for choosing advisors wisely, we have more than enough reasons to be terrified of this potential: Reverend Wright, Rezko, Auchi, William Ayers, Michelle Obama---these are the people he has chosen to surround himself with.  Optimism is one thing; delusionary wishful thinking is quite another.

    [ Parent ]

    The Unity Pony Galloping Into IA To (5.00 / 7) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:24:05 AM EST
    declare that he is "The One."

    Why do I think that Obama doesn't really care how many Clinton supporters he ticks off? He must believe that Democratic voters are sheep that will meekly fall in line between now and November. For someone who has never promoted party loyalty, this would be quite an assumption.

    Well I'm glad that I'm an Independent now and I don't have to consider party loyalty.

    It's what happens when you live (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:27:32 AM EST
    in a bubble.  When in doubt, you ask a rabid "operative".  They'll tell you the the "truth" that you want to hear.

    The surprise will come in November.

    [ Parent ]

    If Iowans fall for this, too, then (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Cream City on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:41:01 AM EST
    I really will have to revise my opinion of them -- as I'm from a family of former Iowans.  

    I begin to see why my forebears left for brighter pastures.  

    [ Parent ]

    Lots of farmers in Iowa.. (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:14:18 PM EST
    and farmers know what comes out of ponies. And while it is great for growing roses, it isn't so great for growing votes. Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe he's come to the realization (3.00 / 0) (#33)
    by riddlerandy on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:28:02 AM EST
    that responsible progressive voters won't vote to make McCain president, and that as for other Hillary voters, there's nothing he could do, including putting her on the ticket, that would change their minds anyway.  

    [ Parent ]
    Oooh (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:30:24 AM EST
    "Responsible progressives" vote for Obama, now.  LOL!  So did they find that the Roe threat wasn't working, so now they'll insult people this way into voting?

    [ Parent ]
    Obama and Hillary (none / 0) (#44)
    by riddlerandy on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    have ADA ratings of between 95 and 100

    McCain is hard-pressed to hit 20 in a good year

    Yeah, responsible progressives

    [ Parent ]

    Responsible progressives (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:37:14 AM EST
    Care about legitimate elections.  Winning on a technicality isn't winning.

    [ Parent ]
    "responsible progressives" don't (5.00 / 6) (#50)
    by tigercourse on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:37:26 AM EST
    support a basically unelectable candidate in the primary as he defeats the ones who could have beaten McCain. People who don't support Obama in the general might be irresponsible, but so is anyone who supported him in the primary.

    [ Parent ]
    Responsible progressives: (5.00 / 10) (#61)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:45:41 AM EST
    1.  Question the candidates credentials.
    2.  Do not fall in like with a marketing campaign.
    3.  Do not fall for accusations of racism that are not valid.
    4.  Insist on all voters having a vote and not allowing the DNC to silence millions of voters.
    5.  They do not blindly believe any candidate who spews language of idealization and fanaticism.
    6.  They don't fall for viral campaign tricks orchestrated by the premier Astro Turf firm, Axelrod.
    7.  They don't demonize one person and sanctify another.  
    8.  They don't lie to themselves by convincing themselves that a male child's experience in a foreign country is equal in any way shape or form to an adult woman's eight year experience as a first lady that was involved and engaged.  

    By the way, my list is not complete but I don't want to sit here for an hour.  

    [ Parent ]
    I guess (none / 0) (#147)
    by riddlerandy on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:52:38 AM EST
    you fall into the "other" category

    [ Parent ]
    Are you trying to pick (none / 0) (#155)
    by kredwyn on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:59:49 AM EST
    a snit?

    [ Parent ]
    When'd Obama and Fauxgressive OBoiz get feminist? (5.00 / 7) (#59)
    by Ellie on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:44:00 AM EST
    Sweetie, when did this conversion occur? Between sending guy-crush missives to Roberts, fawning over the ideas of the no-choice Reagan admin, or tooling around PA with Fertilized Egg "pro" life deadbeat Sen Casey Jr?

    SCOTUS is on your head. Don't you dare pre-blame women for something the Dems failed to stand up for during the Bush era, including when they had the opportunity in Jan '06. (Didn't see it at the top of their agenda the first 100 days.)

    It's actually cheaper, more attainable, and more legally and medically possible to make illegal abortion safer than rely on the Dems (and especially Obama Dems) to do SFA about liberalizing the courts.

    [ Parent ]

    Well If Obama Is Counting On Just Progressive (5.00 / 8) (#62)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:46:28 AM EST
    voters, he just might have a GE problem. The Democratic party is not made up of just progressive voters. Moderate and conservative voters make up a large portion of the Democratic Party. Obama already has a problem with conservative Dem voters who do not have a problem voting Republican when it suits them. Any campaign that gives voters a reason to vote against their candidate is living dangerously IMO. A sane campaign objective should be to add new voters without losing the existing base.  

    [ Parent ]
    So now anyone who does not vote (5.00 / 5) (#68)
    by Florida Resident on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:50:45 AM EST
    for Obama in the GE, if he is the nominee, is irresponsible.  This ranks right up there with "Bitter and Clinging" as how not to get people to vote for your candidate.  It's remarks like this that make my voting for Obama in the GE, should he be the candidate, a probability and not a certainty.

    [