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Late Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:29:51 PM EST
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I've been away from the computer all day. The TL kid and I were car-shopping for him. After weeks of research online, we got to the dealership at noon. We left with his new Jeep at 7:00 pm. Buying your first new car with your own money is a big deal. We test drove a lot of them, then there's going back and forth over options and color ten times, then the financial (payment) decisions and bargaining. I'm exhausted, so I'm putting up an open thread.

  • Big Tent Democrat sent me an email saying he's suspended himself until Monday for violating the site rules.

“Barack is worth millions now,” Mr. Osnos said. “It’s almost all based on these two books, two books not based on a job of prodigious research or risking one’s life as a reporter in Iraq. He has written about himself. Being able to take your own life story and turn it into this incredibly lucrative franchise, it’s a stunning fact.”

What else did I miss today? This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

Comments now closed. There's a new open thread up.

< Saturday Night Open Thread | Overnight and Early AM Open Thread >

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    • Display: Sort:
    Late Night Open Thread | 199 comments (199 topical)
    And those books are mainly fiction (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by angie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:40:04 PM EST
    according to sources I've read.

    I think Obama has become as entralled with (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:02:45 PM EST
    the fantasy he created of himself as many of his fans are.

    Time Magazine had an article in April about his mother, with numerous quotes from his books.

    I cringe every time I hear him say "I was raised by a single mother". Not for much of it. Having raised two children completely by myself, I hate the way he acts like an expert and doesn't have the slightest grasp for how truly difficult it is.

    The Times article says that his mother's family lived "on a small island in Washington state" during her high school years, and frequented coffee shops in Seattle. It was in the 50's, and I don't recall coffee shops showing up until mid-late 60's here (Starbucks original store opened in 1971 or 72). Oh, and that small island was Mercer Island, one of the most affluent areas of the city.

    Truth is, he had a childhood that was charmed by comparison to most.

    A researcher named Kenneth E Lamb has done extensive checking on the accuracy of Obama's books.

    I was at Border's last week and noticed both of Obama's books must have been over-ordered. I expect they will be on the bargain table soon.


    [ Parent ]

    "I was raised by a single mother" (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by nycstray on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:14:27 PM EST
    That drives me nuts. What was it, 3 or 4 yrs? And she may have been from Kansas, but that does not mean he's a mid-westerner or understands them. I don't care if his Grandparents did serve him pot roast and jello.

    Could the coffee shops have been more diner style? There are the old style ones. He prob doesn't know the difference /s  ;)

    [ Parent ]

    All due respect... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Alec82 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:26:21 PM EST
    ...implying that he is not a midwesterner is slightly insulting to that great portion of the midwest centered around the Great Lakes, which includes Illinois.

     On the other hand, I agree with you about the single mother thing.  I don't pretend to know what his mother went through, but it is a dishonest representation.  She had a lot more support than most single mothers in this country, many of them railroaded by the awful politics of so-called "welfare reform," and I don't like it being exploited to win over African American primary voters.  I didn't get that impression when I read Dreams from my father.

     But the front-runners have really unique backgrounds, you have to admit.  

    [ Parent ]

    He's not a mid-westerner by nature (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by nycstray on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:54:47 PM EST
    imo. I grew up with a couple of them known as my parents (born, raised and graduated from Illinois Uni's)  ;) His mid-west experience is fairly limited to South Side Chicago isn't it? I don't see how saying he's not a mid-westerner is an insult to all those who you claim it is.

    My niece had an absent father (don't remember when they actually finally divorced) My parents helped my sister until they finally had to take over care of her. As far as raising goes, Grammy and Gramps get all the credit. When I hear his story, it just doesn't sit right :( And I think that is part of his problem with relating to certain demographics, he doesn't really understand them. His background is interesting, but doesn't leave a lot of connecting points with the 'average American'.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm a Midwesterner (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by Cream City on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:23:38 AM EST
    born, raised, been here for more decades than I'll admit.  So I'm here to tell you that Obama was not any of those.

    Obama is what some Midwesterners in small towns where I lived a while would call a newcomer.  Only twenty years here?  Well, we'll see if he gets the hang of it here after another twenty years.  (Honest, that's literally what I'd hear at town meetings.  Yes, town meetings in a town hall with guys in overalls who had been there for eons.)

    But Obama is what most Midwesterners would call . . . a Chicagoan.  It's a whole different thing.  They have a sort of provincialism hard to explain.  But consider that Obama, as a Senator of the whole state, doesn't know that it borders Kentucky.

    That's a Chicagoan.  That's not a Midwesterner.

    [ Parent ]

    I've been given Brooklyn props ;) (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by nycstray on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:59:23 AM EST
    I haven't been here 20yrs yet, but my background gave me a foot in the door (part Italian) along with teaching at the Senior Center. And also my landlord and his connections in da 'hood. Plus, I can pull off good Brooklyn speak and named one of my cats Vinny, lol!~  ;) I love the history of my 'hood (A Tree Grows in Brooklyn) and the fresh Mozzarella!

    I was going through Obama's senate site today looking at his press releases. He would take town hall tours through different parts of the state, but he doesn't seem to have picked up the 'heartbeat' of it, from what I see.

    [ Parent ]

    Well he is a midwesterner by choice, certainly... (none / 0) (#107)
    by Alec82 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:07:29 AM EST
    ...I mean he definitely isn't from the midwest (Illinois) any more than Senator Clinton is from New York.  

     On the other hand, I would like to avoid the kind of negative politics that comes out of who is a "true" midwesterner.  I still consider myself one, even in California.  Born and raised in Michigan, definitely not Chicago style.  

    [ Parent ]

    She may not be from NY . . . (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by nycstray on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:46:56 AM EST
    BUT her background makes her fit right in with NYS. She gets the people outside of NYC just fine and has won them over and worked hard for them.

    I'm a native Californian, but do fine in Brooklyn, lol!~ I was raised on Mid-Western Mindset in suburban CA with an itching for city living. I can transition between lifestyles pretty easily. My next move will be rural and along a river. I'll fit in just fine. Hillary seems to be able to do this also. That comes with your 'history'. There's a bio program on MSNBC on all 3 of the candidates and I think that's the one where they talk about what they (Clintons) moved into the Gov house with etc. Pretty funny.

    It's not about being a "true" something so much, but how well you 'feel' and relate and perhaps could even live a certain life. That's what our history brings us. His childhood is all 'Island' living to a degree (I have a friend that spent childhood years in Indonesia, so I know her stories from there also. similar to his). And also non-public schools. I think he just has a problem adapting/feeling/connecting with lifestyles that are unfamiliar to him. From what I know, his US experiences (outside of Hawaii) have all been city living and college etc. I'm sure he could talk to urban needs and relate quite well. Unfortunately, a wide patch of the country isn't urban. Michelle on the other hand does have a different feel about things and is someone who can relate on a certain level I don't see him doing. But again, it's still more urban. Has she gone out to speak on issues with the non-AA working class? Because there is a bridge there . . .

    [ Parent ]

    There's an article on Michelle (none / 0) (#155)
    by zfran on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:50:50 AM EST
    floating around one of the other posts here that what we've been told about how she grew up wasn't exactly true. She wasn't all that poor. How many other untruths are going to be uncovered?

    [ Parent ]
    Well, it worked very well for (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:22:00 PM EST
    Deval Patrick, who of course was raised by a single mother.  I've watched in wonder at the merging of their identities.  Obama now says his mother was on foodstamps(Deval's was on welfare), he fails to mention this was when she was a grad student and he was living with his grandparents in Hawaii going to prep school.

    [ Parent ]
    And that his mother refused child support (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:24:50 PM EST
    from both her ex-husbands.

    [ Parent ]
    lol...Hell obama Showed Up Before His Parents (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:38:23 PM EST
    even met, according to his book...lmao

    [ Parent ]
    How many people (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by miriam on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:20:34 AM EST
    consider themselves so fascinating that they write two books about themselves before reaching the age of 45?  And then fictionalize their own autobiographies?  Astonishing!

    [ Parent ]
    You know (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by janarchy on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:32:05 AM EST
    I turned 45 this year and am sincerely sorry I didn't think of it first. I could be a millionaire too! Or run for President.

    Oh, wait, I'm a woman -- it's not my turn yet, is it?

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe it's me, but (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:42:08 PM EST
    I copied this from the end of the Chicago Tribune article. Does this sound arrogant and demeaning to anyone else?

    "The fundraiser said many are unhappy about the idea of having to make room for members of Clinton's finance team, who had "picked the wrong candidate."

    "There are people who are thinking, 'Hey, my guy won. Now I have to share the trophy?' " the Obama fundraiser said.

    "That's something we have to overcome."

    No more arrogant and demeaning (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by angie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:43:55 PM EST
    then usual.

    [ Parent ]
    So why aren't enough people (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:44:52 PM EST
    paying attention to his arrogance?

    [ Parent ]
    because being so arrogant themselves (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by angie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:06:40 PM EST
    it is difficult for them to either recognize it and/or call him out on it.

    [ Parent ]
    Some are too busy fainting! (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:08:28 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Heh, so I guess they don't feel they (5.00 / 7) (#14)
    by nycstray on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:58:35 PM EST
    need any of the Clinton team? Cool, I'll assume they don't need the Clinton votes either . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Not just you (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by standingup on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:23:55 PM EST
    I was ready to comment about those same remarks after reading the Tribune's article.  Where do the voters fit into their equation?  One of the most disappointing revelations about this primary season has been the reinforcement of just how little a role the citizens have in our supposedly democratic process.  I think I grow more cynical each day.

    [ Parent ]
    That struck me as well... (5.00 / 10) (#58)
    by ricosuave on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:27:52 PM EST
    The Clinton folks are pissed because they feel they have been mistreated.  The Obama folks are just pissy.  This is how they have been at all levels of the campaign.  The attitude of the precinct leader of the Obama contingent at our (Texas) county convention was basically "we don't need you guys in november, so screw you now."

    Personally, I will remember that in November if he is the nominee.

    [ Parent ]

    How I read this (5.00 / 5) (#201)
    by dianem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:43:28 AM EST
    Clinton people: Obama's people need to stop insulting us if this is going to work.
    Obama's people: Screw them, we won.

    [ Parent ]
    Not Surprising (1.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Spike on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:55:00 PM EST
    Considering the animosities that Clinton supporters on this site express toward the Obama campaign, it's not surprising that some in the Obama camp have similar feelings toward the Clinton campaign. But the healing process is about to begin and it's critical to Democratic success in November that we learn how to put those animosities behind us.

    [ Parent ]
    I doubt it (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by dissenter on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:56:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    That's funny.... (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:07:34 PM EST
    Obama people who are claiming "my guy won" aren't arrogant.

    Please, please, please link us to the article or analysis that shows Obama with 2210 delegates committed.


    [ Parent ]

    I'll be very interested to see how (5.00 / 6) (#25)
    by Anne on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:07:43 PM EST
    wounds heal when they are constantly being ripped open for another dose of salt.

    [ Parent ]
    You Know There Is No Requirement That Anyone (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:08:08 PM EST
    like a politician or his supporters. If people only voted for politicians they liked, most people would just stay home. So as far as I'm concerned, all this healing rah rah rah is not only premature but unnecessary and counterproductive.

    [ Parent ]
    My animosity toward Sen. Obama (5.00 / 6) (#42)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:16:59 PM EST
    has nothing to do with the fact that he happens to be a politician I don't care for, altho' he acts and speaks just like one (altho' he says he isn't). This has to do with attitudes, treatments, respect (or lack thereof)of voting blocs, arrogance, divisity (the candidate of bringing us together) misogeny, race bating, I could go on. Thinking we, who have been so misled, will return to the bosom of the dems in the GE will not miss us, oh, unless he loses, then it's our fault, but mostly Hillary's.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:22:19 PM EST
    It just rubs me the wrong way and an incentive to be contrary. Although I confess it has been coming on ever so steadily.

    [ Parent ]
    I have no animosity (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by magisterludi on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:08:14 PM EST
    for Obama any more.

    I (along with extended family and friends) will simply write in Hillary or leave it blank. Vote dem down ticket.

    [ Parent ]

    Unless the Dem party gets their act together (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by nycstray on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:18:53 PM EST
    the only one so far getting my vote is Hillary. I'll look for deserving candidates, but I'm done with the party. I have my list of 'interests' I want to protect as a meter, but if they are in Obama Land, huge negative.

    [ Parent ]
    Ditto! (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by gandy007 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:57:07 AM EST
    After 44 years of pulling the Democratic lever, in November I'm going to be solely a down ballot Yellow Dog Democrat.

    [ Parent ]
    Glad to Hear It (none / 0) (#40)
    by Spike on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:15:16 PM EST
    At least you don't intend to vote for McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    No Animosity. Only a personal solution for me (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:11:12 PM EST
    Hillary all the way for me! And every time I read such comments as yours (though I credit you for the absence of some of the more insulting words are Obama supporters have used) somehow McCain does not look that objectionable to me anymore.  After all, McCain and Obama both admire Ronald Reagan.  McCain even credits Pres. Clinton with achievements while Obama totally ignores Bill Clinton.  The way I see it, at least McCain acts and speaks like a republican Maverick.  Obama speaks like a republican but calls himself a democrat.  On this score, I consider McCain more honest.  But I certainly will vote for democratic members of congress.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain's Not Bad... (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Spike on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:29:32 PM EST
    If you're so sick of Bush personally that you don't mind a continuation of his policies.

    [ Parent ]
    Bush is bad. McCain is not Bush (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:42:56 PM EST
    He won't be like Bush.  But I would rather have Hillary. The justices need to be confirmed by the Senate so that is at least a check. I will not make a decision until after the democratic convention.  So it is premature to talk about November.  I can only say that McCain is my second choice after Hillary.  

    [ Parent ]
    Are You a Democrat? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Spike on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:52:08 PM EST
    I have trouble understanding how anyone who is actually a Democrat could seriously consider voting for McCain. I can understand leaving the top race blank or writing in Clinton. But McCain? Why would anyone who's really into Hillary Clinton vote for McCain?

    [ Parent ]
    American! (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:54:33 PM EST
    Democrat if Hillary is the nominee.  Independent if not Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Interesting (none / 0) (#101)
    by Spike on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:00:38 AM EST
    I don't picture independents starting out as Clinton supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    I can't speak for the poster (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by dissenter on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:02:15 AM EST
    But I'm guessing that is the Obama campaign's problem. They don't think.

    [ Parent ]
    That would be Ron Paul (none / 0) (#154)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:49:19 AM EST
    He's the Independent that I've heard of for this election.

    You sure?

    [ Parent ]

    Don't get me started on Ron Paul (none / 0) (#161)
    by Practically Lactating on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:58:54 AM EST
    My anecdotal internet socializing on other sites suggests that a sizable contingent of his supporters deflected to Obama. See the similarity in their positions? I certainly don't.

    [ Parent ]
    Simple (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by dissenter on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:58:26 PM EST
    I think BO is batsh$t crazy. I may not agree with McCain on policy but I don't think the entire country will fall apart in 4 years with him at the helm. Obama is unqualified on every level.

    As for a Democrat, when democrats act like democrats then come talk to me. At the end of the day though, I am an American first.

    [ Parent ]

    I think there will be more write ins and blanks (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by nycstray on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:06:11 AM EST
    with more politically active folks. But when you get out into some of her demographics, McCain is not a bad option for them. They will be able to relate to him and he's not overly conservative. He has experience and a history they can look at. That means something. If we retain the Dem congress and hopefully strengthen it, things could be ok. Plus, if things continue to go to heck, he'll take the blame and we get another shot in 2012. The risk with Obama is (and it's a BIG one in my mind) his ability to get anything done. If he is a non-starter, we start losing seats in congress in 2010. Personally, I don't think he'll win the GE. He doesn't have the reach so far, imo.

    [ Parent ]
    I aqree with you Spike (5.00 / 5) (#122)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:22:01 AM EST
    TalkLeft does not support voting for McCain -- both Big Tent Demorat and I have said many many times we will vote for the Democratic nominee.

    Hillary supporters need to remember that a vote for McCain is the last thing she'd want. She's a Democrat and the Democratic candidate is preferable to the Republican one -- from cabinet appointments to policy to federal judges.

    [ Parent ]

    That's the wonderful thing about democracy (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by RalphB on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:33:18 AM EST
    a person's vote is their own and no one gets to tell them how to vote.  It's really an act of conscience.

    As is the opinion that the Democratic candidate is always better that the GOP version.  As an Independent, divided government has an allure.


    [ Parent ]

    It's not just about Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:10:42 AM EST
    it's about legitimacy of a presidential primary.  How will the primary process change if it results in a win?  (answer:  it's won't.)

    However, this election has pointed out the flaws and maybe if the Dems don't win, they'll fix them.

    Maybe.

    [ Parent ]

    I won't vote McCain myself (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Nadai on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:23:33 AM EST
    but the (few) Hillary supporters I know who do plan to vote for McCain will be doing so because they're looking more for certainty than for any specific policy.  Obama's "blank slate" approach leaves them cold.  McCain seems more like a known quantity.

    There are a lot of conservative Dems.  I'm not one of them, but I can see how they might feel that McCain isn't so bad even when I disagree.

    [ Parent ]

    Are you a democrat? (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by jackyt on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:59:30 AM EST
    I have trouble understanding how anyone who is actually a Democrat could seriously consider voting for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    I could understand why this would concern you (none / 0) (#97)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:59:13 PM EST
    It is the equivalent of two votes for McCain against Obama: +1for McCain and -1from Obama.  The others who said they would leave it blank were o.k. with you.  But those like me are certainly going to be a problem for Obama. And another thing:  there are eight of us in the family who think the same way--in California.

    [ Parent ]
    And Colorado (none / 0) (#100)
    by dissenter on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:00:18 AM EST
    Here - 3 in the family.

    [ Parent ]
    Two more in our family (none / 0) (#196)
    by Grace on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:21:25 AM EST
    Also in California.  

    To be honest, one voted for Obama in the primary thinking he was the "hot new thing" but has since changed his mind.  We would both vote Clinton if she was the Dem nominee.  

    One thing I like about McCain is that he is fiscally conservative.  He's not Hillary but he's okay for second choice.  (Hope he picks a decent moderate VP though.)

    [ Parent ]

    One more in California (none / 0) (#207)
    by BrandingIron on Sun May 18, 2008 at 03:11:25 AM EST

    Maybe two.  And two (possibly four, if I can convince them) in Texas, but I think they've always been McCain people.

    [ Parent ]
    Because he does have the experience (none / 0) (#206)
    by BrandingIron on Sun May 18, 2008 at 03:08:35 AM EST

    and knows how to make fun of himself.  His appearance on SNL tonight proved that.  Obama would never do that because he's lacking a sense of humor, except when he thinks it's "cute" to call all women in the media "sweetie".

    [ Parent ]
    After Souter (none / 0) (#188)
    by Makarov on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:57:44 AM EST
    there is no way the Federalist Society won't at least vet (assuming they're not a member) every Republican nominee to the Supreme Court.  You won't see a Stevens, Souter, or even an O'Conner ever nominated again from a Republican President in our lifetime.

    Now, if the Repub party as a whole reinvents itself completely and dumps the religious wing, that could change.  Barring that, I just don't see it happening.

    I also don't see Harry Reid holding up a reasonably qualified, yet total right-wing zealot from a seat on the court.  Wish I could say otherwise.  Even if he does, choice #2 with identical ideology will be waiting in the wings.

    [ Parent ]

    If McCain wins, the religious wing (none / 0) (#193)
    by RalphB on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:12:52 AM EST
    will be on their way out the door.  Once he finishes his panderfest for the election, I expect the maverick to reemerge.


    [ Parent ]
    Does more than just ignore Bill, (5.00 / 6) (#166)
    by gandy007 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:01:08 AM EST
    he denigrates the many accomplishments of his presidency and lumps him in with the two Bushes.

    That by itself would probably be enough to make me not vote for him.

    [ Parent ]

    To the extent that you are serious... (3.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Alec82 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:17:43 PM EST
    ...I guess it is kind of win-win.  The policy options (apart from judges) are probably pretty limited, and Senator McCain is quasi-liberal.  Certainly the people who will be energized in his administration and carrying out duties won't be Rovian, although they'll tank us in foreign policy and the economy.  

     I guess the Log Cabin Republicans were right to back him.  

    [ Parent ]

    I can only speak about my own perceptions (5.00 / 7) (#78)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:38:05 PM EST
    McCain is an officer and a gentleman (most of the time) He was a prisoner of war and knows first hard the suffering that war inflicts on everyone, soldier or not.  Like Hillary, his candidacy was declared dead for several months but he stayed and fought back.  And he prevailed.  He has a sense of humor, self-deprecating most of the time (unlike Obama) If Obama is the democratic nominee, McCain will have a pretty good chance of winning the presidency.  Any president will have to face the realities as they are when he assumes office.  He has to end the war in Iraq or else resign himself to a one-term presidency.  Just as well because if Hillary is not the nominee, then I would like Hillary to run again and I will most certainly still support her.

     So you see, that is how much I resent the party for the way it has treated Hillary; for the sexism and racism; for the structure they have set up that allows it to be manipulated against reflecting the will of the members of the party.  And I do not appreciate the way that Bill Clinton has been treated and the fine administration and accomplishments he had.  

    [ Parent ]

    I wish I could rate you higher (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:02:08 AM EST
    It is odd to see someone expess what I have been focusing on in this election cycle.

    I agree. Thank you.

    [ Parent ]

    The healing process is about to begin? (5.00 / 11) (#111)
    by miriam on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:12:28 AM EST
    Who, other than you, says so?  Healing process--you wish.  Your comment vividly illustrates how little you know of anything outside the Obama bubble.  You very clearly do not understand how enraged women are by the treatment of Hillary Clinton--2 term senator, former first lady, and first serious female candidate for president.  I remind you of these because the insults leveled at Clinton by Obama, his supporters, and the media are, by extension, insults leveled at every woman who has had to work hard to achieve.

    My biggest single problem with Obama is his abject cowardice.  He refuses to debate because he has lost in the previous debates and fears he will lose again.  He fears a revote in Florida and Michigan, as proposed by Clinton and the states, because he fears he will lose again.  He is afraid to call Hillary a racist to her face--because he knows she will dress him down big time--but calls her and her husband racists behind her back.  He is afraid to personally contest WVA and Kentucky because he is afraid of voters and is afraid of losing.  

    We need a leader in the White House.  Not someone who will shrink from every unpleasant reality. I have been a Democrat for 47 years, but the Democratic party has become unrecognizable.  While I won't vote for McCain, I will not vote for Barack Obama. If the Democratic leadership loses this election it will be due to their own failure of leadership and their cowardice.  In that respect, they thoroughly deserve their "presumptive" nominee.  

    [ Parent ]

    Agree with everything you stated (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by felizarte on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:44:06 AM EST
    plus a few of mine.

    [ Parent ]
    The Healing Process (none / 0) (#152)
    by Spike on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:46:59 AM EST
    My reference to the healing process was in response to a link Jeralyn posted about the two campaigns fusing their financial operations for the fall.

    I don't understand your specific issues with Obama. But I do understand the intensity of your feelings. I would feel the same way if Clinton were about to become the nominee.

    But, like you, I could never vote for McCain. And I hope that you will not give up on the Democratic Party. We can make great progress this year in the House, the Senate and in state houses across the country.

    [ Parent ]

    Never said I won't vote for dem members (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by felizarte on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:51:20 AM EST
    of congress.  My presidential choices remain firm.

    [ Parent ]
    for the record (none / 0) (#157)
    by boredmpa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:52:59 AM EST
    i'd say the first serious candidate from a major party was the 4 term rep and 2 term senator back in the 60s (if i recall).

    Hillary is just the strongest candidate (for various political reasons), and as a result of the era we're in and her strength she's seeing greater misogyny than any other female candidate (of any era--it far outtrumps the dole and 1872 press).

    [ Parent ]

    His books making them (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:43:29 PM EST
    rich goes right back to the last thread in which Michelle Obama said that they wouldn't run for pres. again if he lost this time because in the end, they'd be rich anyway. Hmmmm. Pretty sad..the american way?

    ROFL (none / 0) (#88)
    by daryl herbert on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:49:39 PM EST
    I've heard her say that America only gets one chance to elect Barack (lucky us!), but I've never heard her give a reason.  Did she really say that it was all about money?

    [ Parent ]
    ROFL Is right on! (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by felizarte on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:15:41 AM EST
    Reminds me of "Last call to come forward and be saved!"

    [ Parent ]
    "Last call . . . (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by nycstray on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:21:08 AM EST
    come forward and be served!" My brain went into college mode there, lol!

    [ Parent ]
    According to Chuck Todd (5.00 / 5) (#123)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:22:10 AM EST
    a week or so ago on Hardball, he said that Michelle has said they will not be able to run again in 4 years because they will be too rich and won't be able to relate to the issues of the people any longer!!

    Really, truly...he said that.


    [ Parent ]

    Wow! Double Wow! (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by felizarte on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:47:29 AM EST
    Watch out Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Soros, Ted Turner and who else?

    [ Parent ]
    Bill Clinton . . . . (none / 0) (#165)
    by nycstray on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:01:02 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Bill Clinton? (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by felizarte on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:56:11 AM EST
    He is not rich enough to belong in that group.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL! "It's a Stunning fact" (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by goldberry on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:45:04 PM EST
    Not a stunning achievement.  No, merely a statement of what he did.  What a brilliant review.
    He must be smart to get through Harvard Law but what I think he's most adept at is shmoozing.  Who put him up to running?  Must have been another narcissist.

    HE was the narcissist (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:46:40 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    At Harvard, they came up with (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:06:12 PM EST
    an "Obamameter" which measures how well you schmooze the professors. Apparently, he raised it to a high art. Too bad he can't figure out how to do it with voters.

    [ Parent ]
    That's funny (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by andgarden on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:07:43 PM EST
    I'll have to ask my Harvard friend about that.

    [ Parent ]
    Link (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Practically Lactating on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:29:30 PM EST
    The source is questionable, but I am sure we will be hearing more about this after the coronation:

    The Obamamometer

    [ Parent ]

    IF (none / 0) (#71)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:32:49 PM EST
    there's a coronation.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, National Review (none / 0) (#99)
    by andgarden on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:00:02 AM EST
    Funny, but not credible.

    [ Parent ]
    A rather amusing article. (none / 0) (#73)
    by lilburro on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:34:14 PM EST
    The article can basically be summed up:

    "He asked me for comments!  He asked ME!  FOR COMMENTS!!!!"  

    The love just bewilders me.  I guess people don't want to view politics as ugly - thus creating monsters out of the Clintons, a saint of Obama, a harmless bungler or bad national dad out of Bush.  Whatever.

    [ Parent ]

    I read the NY Times article (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by facta non verba on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:03:00 PM EST
    Now I am published author but I have never called anyone to ask them over and over again:

    "Have you read my book?"

    Egotistical is the word that comes to mind. How self-centered can one be?

    It is all about him, isn't it? I get the feeling GWB is going to look like a work-a-holic compared to Obama. Let's just let him his waffles, why don't we?

    I read it too.. (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:37:54 PM EST
    a fellowship so he could have an office to write his book? A few months in Bali to concentrate on it? Writing "Audacity of Hope" while allegedly serving the people of IL in the Senate? When did he have time to do the elected jobs he was using to get where he is now?? What is he going to run for, or write, in the White House?? Does he realize that the Presidency is a really full-time job?? That it is not something you can stop doing when you get bored or a better-paying job comes along? Where is the public service mentioned?? That is the business he claims to be in, right?? So when did he have time to do it?? Between chapters??

    [ Parent ]
    I heard something on TV (5.00 / 2) (#205)
    by Grace on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:59:01 AM EST
    about a new McCain commercial tonight.  In it, he says something about devoting himself to the job of the president full time and not running a non-stop political campaign once in office.  

    I felt it was kind of a stab at Obama and his years of running campaign after campaign, never bothering to really do the work once he wins an office.

    I've also wondered how much time Obama would devote to being President if elected.  Would an hour or two a day be too much?  Or would it cut into his other activities?    

    [ Parent ]

    Apparently You Don't Have The Burning Need (none / 0) (#68)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:31:26 PM EST
    to be stroked constantly.  Could obama be any more full of himself?  Guessing....NO!

    [ Parent ]
    Your son will love his Jeep. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Anne on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:04:58 PM EST
    My daughter has a Jeep Grand Cherokee and loves it.  She got hers used - a 2005, I think - but still under warranty, so she was able to extend it.

    But isn't car shopping exhausting?  My favorite part is how you can go from trying to be frugal and not get all the bells and whistles to finding yourself thinking things like, "oh, what's another $750.00."  That's when I know I am really tired!

    The trick is to figure out what you're (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by andgarden on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:07:17 PM EST
    willing to pay and what you're willing to do without. Then check the lot, figure out a car you can live with near your price range, and make an offer, letting the dealership generously throw in the "extras" that happen to be built into every car they have in inventory.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm still driving my '89 wrangler Jeep. (none / 0) (#39)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:15:16 PM EST
    I love it.

    [ Parent ]
    Self-promotion is not a vice in my view (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by andgarden on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:05:25 PM EST
    So far as I'm concerned, good for Obama.

    Hey andgarden (none / 0) (#45)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:17:59 PM EST
    BTD posted a new Rasmussen poll that had Obama 50%
    McCain 41% in New Mexico. Rasmussen poll on 4/8 had Obama 45% and McCain 42% but SUSA had a poll on 4/13 with Obama 44% and McCain 50%. Don't see any details for the new Ramussen poll. Have you ever looked at what accounts for the differences between these two pollsters' results?

    [ Parent ]
    In my experience (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by andgarden on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:24:03 PM EST
    Ras tends to slightly favor Republicans and SUSA Dems. But that's entirely anecdotal, and they both tend to a) be ok, and b) make mistakes occasionally. As between two differing polls of the same vintage, I'd take SUSA.

    [ Parent ]
    But self-delusion (none / 0) (#128)
    by Cream City on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:25:24 AM EST
    and making up the story to self-promote?

    Not a good thing in, um, my book.

    [ Parent ]

    Good Article (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by dissenter on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:19:10 PM EST
    You Broke It, You Own it Obama Style on Huff Post.

    Now the 9/11 Women are coming after him. You go Kristen!

    Loved Kristen's piece (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by RalphB on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:49:09 PM EST
    but the comments were pure vitriol.  Jeez HuffPo sucks.


    [ Parent ]
    I Can't Believe I Clicked On HuffPo (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:59:01 PM EST
    The article was worth it even if I had to go to HuffPo to see it. I like the Title. I agree 100% and that will be my mantra after November if McCain is elected.

    [ Parent ]
    Good Stuff -- Now Here's the Thing (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Edgar08 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:05:35 AM EST
    There's these con-artists (that's what you should call them cause that's what they are) who have been selling a war.  Not a war for oil, but something less useful and even more toxic.  

    CONSULTANT MONEY.

    You know what these liars and con-artists have called this war.

    They have sold it to their followers as, are you ready for this:   THE WAR FOR THE SOUL OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

    They broke it.

    They own it.  End of story.

    [ Parent ]

    How elegant her article (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by zfran on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:06:57 AM EST
    is. I read some of the comments below the article and I was sickened. I believe some who commented had no idea who she was or what she has accomplished or how her life had been re-shaped and re-defined. I think Huffpo should scan its postings more closely. There is discrimination, misongny and vitriolic filth going on.

    [ Parent ]
    The interesting thing is that (5.00 / 4) (#176)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:32:32 AM EST
    my true heros have never left me in this election -- Kristen B and Paul Krugman to name 2.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD may be in the mood for foul music (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Practically Lactating on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:20:46 PM EST
    and I certainly have my moments, but Hillary has truly inspired me over the last several weeks.

    So if you, like me, are tired of the battling the premature grave-digging yet continue to amass more hope from Hillary's reserve of silent strength than those with an endless supply of "just words," there are still votes to be cast, superDs to be persuaded, and there is another day...

    Jamie Lidell - Another Day

    You're right (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by felizarte on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:11:20 AM EST
    when you say: "There's really no point in persuading you, or rather attempting to."

    But you are wrong when you say, "I am glad that the Bush wing of the GOP . . . will be dead."  Because Obama is showing Bush-like tendencies in his arrogance, dictatorial tendencies, insensitivity, and divisiveness.

    I am glad you have "a higher opinion of his wife," and if you want to consider yourself as a young ill-informed voter, that is your prerogative, but I never intimated anything to that effect.

    And lastly, I am voting against Obama because of his stated positions and his behavior . . . and not yours.

    Afghanistan (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by dissenter on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:11:50 AM EST
    I fly back across the pond on Thursday. I've made a promise to blog a bit from Afghanistan. Is there anything you guys are particularly interested in or want to know about? I thought I would ask ahead of time.

    Stay safe! (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by miriam on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:28:20 AM EST
    And thank you for your commitment to America.  

    [ Parent ]
    Dissenter (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:31:45 AM EST
    is terrific. S/he was gracious enough to invite me to a DNC party in Denver last night. I hope s/he takes me up on my invitation to be our Afghanistan correspondent and post about Afghanistan here.

    [ Parent ]
    I am interested (5.00 / 3) (#171)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:14:19 AM EST
    in anything you want to tell us.  Even if you just want to say hi.  I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we want to know how you're doing.

    Everything you want to say is important to us.

    [ Parent ]

    The children? (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by nycstray on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:27:35 AM EST
    I know it's not political, but my sister knits with a group that sends sweaters and other warm items for the children there and it reminds me of the 'forgotten/not mentioned enough' aspects of war. I'd like to hear how things are for those trying to live their lives and raise children etc. And perhaps efforts that we can help with.

    [ Parent ]
    Ok (5.00 / 4) (#178)
    by dissenter on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:39:17 AM EST
    I will do that one first. I have a lot of little side projects. My main one is called operation Halima. She is the daughter of one of my drivers. Halima is developmentally disabled and my brother and I have been on a year long quest to get her medical help and in school.

    It is a loooong story but I shall begin it at soon as I get back to Kabul. Halima is a great place to start. Her story will help everyone understand the difficulties in Afghanistan for both parent and child and the few options that they have to improve their lives.

    [ Parent ]

    Jeez. (none / 0) (#133)
    by lilburro on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:28:13 AM EST
    Good luck and thank you.  

    [ Parent ]
    Please read the Sat. NYT (none / 0) (#142)
    by oculus on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:34:26 AM EST
    article on the huge prison the U.S. is bldg. in Afghanistan.  Reminds me of the huge U.S. embassy in Baghdad and the fact we will apparently be in both countries for many years to come.

    [ Parent ]
    I saw it (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by dissenter on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:38:06 AM EST
    I know a bit about it. Prison conditions over there, actually the whole justice system, is a disaster.

    I will do a little investigating. I have interesting friends in interesting places lol. I will see what I can find out.

    Keep the ideas coming. In the next day or so I will set up a new mailbox where people can leave questions or thoughts on what they would like to know.

    And thanks for all your good wishes. They are appreciated.

    [ Parent ]

    No time like the present (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by dissenter on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:55:51 AM EST
    dissenterblog@gmail.com

    You got me Jeralyn:) Keep up the good fight. And just so everyone knows, while I am very sour on Obama, Jeralyn will continue to be a huge advocate for the Democratic nominee no matter who it turns out to be.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, there are 2 very classy ladies (none / 0) (#168)
    by Practically Lactating on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:08:35 AM EST
    that come to mind this primary season.

    [ Parent ]