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The Lack Of Integrity Of The Pledged Delegate System

As we have known for a long time, the Democratic delegate selection process is a travesty. Starting with the disenfranchising caucus system, which shuts out legions of voters from the process, to the unbalanced proportional system of awarding delegates by congressional district (which produces such perverse results like a candidate winning 60% of the vote in a district receiving the same amount of delegates and a different candidate receiving 60% of the delegates with a 50.1% of the vote in another district), to the overweighting of regions arbitrarily and haphazardly (for example, in Nevada rural district were overweighted, in Texas urban districts were overweighted), to awarding low turnout states disproportional representation to high turnout states, the entire system is a travesty of democracy.

Let me put it bluntly, anyone holding up the pledged delegate count as representing the "will of the people" is simply full of it. It does not. It thwarts the will of the people. BY DESIGN. Now we have the latest bit of evidence that the pledged delegate system is a total crock:

U.S. Sen. Barack Obama succeeded in driving more supporters to the Nevada state convention than his opponent U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton, who had won the state in the Jan. 19 caucuses. Obama essentially reversed Clinton’s lead from the caucuses, capturing 55 percent of the state delegates to Clinton’s 45 percent.

Remember when the likes of Kid Oakland and TINS were screaming about voter disenfranchisement at the Nevada caucuses in January? How about this utter disregard for those votes? Will there be any honest person in the Obama supporters camp willing to address this disgrace? Of course not. They will whoop it up.

This is a disgusting spectacle. A travesty of democracy. And to hear Donna Brazile and her ilk justify their ego driven blocking of the seating of the Florida and Michigan delegations in the face of this incontrovertible evidence that the RULZ are a disgrace just burns me up.

In my opinion, Barack Obama will be the nominee of the Democratic Party. At this point I believe he is the choice, by a very narrow margin, of the will of the people as I believe he still leads in the popular vote. But never forget this, the Democratic Party has shamed itself with its disregard for democracy and voters.

This disgraceful system can not stand any more after this nomination process is over.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only.

Comments closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    BTD? (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by kredwyn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 04:48:49 PM EST
    You're writing a heck of a lot today. Is it raining where you are?

    ;-P

    pea ess... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by kredwyn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 04:49:43 PM EST
    agreed

    [ Parent ]
    sort of... (none / 0) (#12)
    by kredwyn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:05:57 PM EST
    But I'm not sure that bringing up Brazile, TINS, and others is the reason to totally knock out the "will of the people" argument.

    To me, Brazile overstepped when it came to her actions...and that shouldn't be accepted.

    [ Parent ]

    I do not follow you (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:08:03 PM EST
    I have been knocking the pledged delegate selection process since last September.

    I have been knocking TINS and Kid Oakland since their execrable behavior in January.

    Your comment does not compute for me.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes...you have... (5.00 / 9) (#21)
    by kredwyn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:14:05 PM EST
    Not saying that you think they're actions have been laudable. I know that you have been on them for it...and Brazile too.

    But in some ways it feels like the "Obama will be the nominee" thing highlights that the odds are they are actually going to get away with it regardless of how execrable the behaviour is...

    I'm confused and more than a little frustrated with the idea that bad behaviour is going to get reinforced by the results.

    Does that make sense?

    [ Parent ]

    That's how I feel (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:49:46 PM EST
    The rewarding of bad behavior, that is, be it outright nastiness or passive-aggressive shoulder patting.

    [ Parent ]
    It's like announcing (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by kredwyn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:53:19 PM EST
    an Open Season on those who disagree with you...and the mob mentality just gets louder and nastier.

    [ Parent ]
    so much for leveraging that edwards endorsement (none / 0) (#201)
    by sgdavis73 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:39:24 PM EST
    and trying to work for the working class vote. check this article out. obama lists plenty of excuses for not campaigning AT ALL in kentucky. my favorite excuse is that clinton is better known in kentucky because of her days in arkansas. a great post at taylormarsh.com points out that illinois borders kentucky. pretty hilarious!

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/254/story/37388.html

    [ Parent ]

    BTD is right; It is a disgrace! (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:59:23 PM EST
    That is not to say that it is an attempt to change the rules in midstream; rather it should be obvious to everyone that the system does not reflect the will of the people.

    For the life of me, I do not understand why the democratic party cannot parallel the electoral college system since that is the operative system in the national elections.  Any system that makes it possible for one who does not have the majority votes to have more pledged delegates is on its face, flawed.

    This has nothing to do with Barack or Hillary. It should be the first order of business for succeeding DNC leadership.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat May 17, 2008 at 04:53:36 PM EST
    let's see where the vote ends up after June 3rd and go from there.

    Even Dean said that you can count the votes from MI and FL.

    August (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by ChuckieTomato on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:28:05 PM EST
    That's when the decision will be made

    Repeating over and over that you have won the nomination doesn't make it so.

    [ Parent ]

    Amen...Chuckie....Only Works For Repubs (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:40:05 PM EST
    some of the time.  I am not sure when obama became so enamored with the repug playbook.  Maybe when he decided to run for president, knew he wasn't up to the task and would try the easy way in.

    He is a weasel for sure....look at this:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080517/ap_on_el_pr/obama_finale

    [ Parent ]

    Obama continues reacting to Bush's (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by Josey on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:02:11 PM EST
    remarks on Thurs. with a 2-fer - specifically denouncing McCain as
    "the past", which includes Hillary.

    And here's an Obamamite insulting "the past."
    http://tinyurl.com/5r5x3w

    Wikipedia -
    >>>Rosie the Riveter is a cultural icon of the  United States, representing the six million women who worked in the manufacturing plants that produced munitions and material during World War II. These women took the places of the male workers who were absent fighting in the Pacific and European theaters.

    Do Obamamites actually think that insulting women is the way to get women to support Obama? Apparently the silence from their Leader is a green light.

    [ Parent ]

    Ah yes the G'wan P!ss Me Off S'more outreach div (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by Ellie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:28:19 PM EST
    ... to build upon the massive successes of brilliant strategies like the daily wave of Pester-bots.

    Good grief, if this is a brief taste of the Unity Hope Change "new" politics I'll take being kicked in the teeth by the Repugs anyday. At least that's bracing and kind of a pick-me-up.

    This strategy to whine and annoy me into numb compliance doesn't even have the so evil and yet so fiendishly audacious mark of Rethug SOP that 10-15% of my outrage always went towards pure, admiring shock.

    This is just lame on all fronts. On the upside, this dork will suffer a cold, desperate sweat for slamming Rosie the Riveter.

    Ideally, it will be a mile high during air travel when he realizes Rosie's superb level of craftswomanship and pride in her work are a vanishing standard that he is attempting to vanish from culture and memory.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, that kid doesn't realize (5.00 / 6) (#132)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:46:41 PM EST
    he is actually making a feminist statement by putting a "NOT" under Rosie's image. All the Rosies lost their jobs when the men came home from the war. Even the single ones. It was deemed more important for men, the breadwinners, to work than it was for women to work. Women made great strides forward during the war. After the war, they had to go back to "their place". Shortly after that, Valium was invented. And yes, there is a connection. Valium was the drug that was given to women with "nerves", depression, and whatever else frustration with their lives caused. When women got tired of being medicated into second-class citizenship, they rebelled. That was the 60's. The rest is history.

    Rosie was used when she was needed and then tossed aside when she wasn't. Sort of like what Obama does to voters. Heh.

    [ Parent ]

    Mother's Little Helper! n/t (none / 0) (#144)
    by magisterludi on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:56:17 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Indications of a mouth disconnected from brain (2.00 / 1) (#151)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:02:59 PM EST
    because such a sweeping statement as "the past" must certainly include the likes of Washing, Jefferson, Franklin, Lincoln and all those presidents who each contributed to this democracy.

    Unbelievable!

    [ Parent ]

    Edit: Washington (none / 0) (#153)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:03:58 PM EST
    even Reagan.  

    [ Parent ]
    That's not Rosie-that's Hillary. (none / 0) (#163)
    by Joan in VA on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:09:37 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    No, But... (none / 0) (#116)
    by Spike on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:30:27 PM EST
    I assume that you agree that it's over if Sen. Clinton announces in early June that she is suspending her campaign in the interest of party unity in the fall? Or do you keep on fighting until the bitter end even if your candidate is no longer contesting the nomination?

    [ Parent ]
    And if Hillary wins can we count on your support (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by ChuckieTomato on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:42:19 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Why would she do that?? (5.00 / 5) (#135)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:49:29 PM EST
    Ted Kennedy didn't when he was running against Carter. No one else did as far as I can remember. And the convention is where the votes are cast, and the decision made. Why would she stop short of the finish line?? Let's go to the convention. That's what it's for. Remember?

    [ Parent ]
    But is SOOOOO hard and boring! (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by angie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:07:03 PM EST
    Obama and his supporters remind me of spoiled children, stomping their feet, pounding their fists and demanding that they want the nomination NOW!!!

    [ Parent ]
    I Believe' (none / 0) (#128)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:43:21 PM EST
    in the stars that shine--and the words I heard her say

    [ Parent ]
    I too believe (5.00 / 0) (#177)
    by felizarte on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:18:58 PM EST
    in the righteousness of her cause and that lightning can strike any time.

    [ Parent ]
    x (5.00 / 5) (#49)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:45:41 PM EST
    If that is the case, then Clinton is already ahead by about 30,000 votes. After the rest of the primaries, I expect the lead to be larger.

    Incidentally, someone pointed this out a few days ago:


    More importantly, however, is a number the Obama campaign and many media outlets haven't discussed: Clinton has now won the popular vote in 195 US Congressional Districts. That number is important because of the relative equality of each congressional district. This number is important because to date Barack Obama has only won the popular vote in 187 congressional districts. If you include Florida & Michigan's 2.3 million voters who showed up in record numbers on Election Day despite being disenfranchised, the congressional district victories look like this:

    Clinton - 227 Congressional Districts
    Obama - 195 Congressional Districts

    Clinton Extends Her Lead...



    [ Parent ]
    Thanks!! I've been looking for these stats (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Josey on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:22:33 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    So, again, IOKIYAforO -- now, if delegates were to (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by jawbone on Sat May 17, 2008 at 04:56:37 PM EST
    switch to Hillary prior to the first vote at the convention? What would the OFB scream? The MCM? The cable shouters?

    First, the Super Delegates were "supposed" to represent the will of the voters in their district/state/maybe in their dreams. Now, "pledged" delegates can switch with impunity?

    DNC leaders, your party discipline is completely disappearing.

    Maybe the Obama/Axelrod hostile takeover will succeed. I'd been thinking it was a stretch too far, but, gee, with this kind of thing going on.

    And recall that the initial "rules" for states skipping head of IA/NH was to lose half their delegate count (not clear if SD's were included in that). Then the DNC itself decided to abrogate the rules and came up with The Roolz, taking all delegates away. Wow.

    Setting a great example there, folks. Why should elected delegates follow party rules if the pary itself won't?

    Well, then I abstain from voting. (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 04:58:40 PM EST
    I disagree with you.  I think Hill will have the pop vote, thus the "will of the people" and I do not understand why you are arguing against that.  

    Not to speak for BTD, masslib, but I think (none / 0) (#17)
    by Teresa on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:09:18 PM EST
    he does agree with the popular vote being the will of the people. He just thinks Obama will win that. I hope he's wrong on that one.

    [ Parent ]
    Few others think that. (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:10:17 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    agreed (none / 0) (#139)
    by isaac on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:52:19 PM EST
    it seems even the obama folks are acknowledging this, by attempting to minimize the importance, or how obscure the whole thing is

    [ Parent ]
    I looked at the link, (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:02:52 PM EST
    but it made no sense to me.  You mean that the people attending the convention can then choose whom to vote for?   Like the old conventions where a handful of party faithfuls (and I realize this was not handful) met and chose their primary winner?

    Well, like those dispirited Clinton folks who stayed home--I will too.  How about a third party, us?

    It made no sense to you (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:04:12 PM EST
    because you know peiople camoe out and voted in January and their votes have been utterly thwarted by a process DESIGNED to thwart their votes.

    Tell Donna Brazile to stick her RULZ where they belong.

    [ Parent ]

    I Live In NV And Rec'd An Email Asking Me To (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:13:10 PM EST
    attend the caucus for choosing delegates...They called me back to tell me they already had enough people and didn't need any more.  That seems odd, given what happened.  And as a recent transplant to NV...I HATE THE CAUCUS SYSTEM.

    [ Parent ]
    Um, I hate to suggest this (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by angie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:39:19 PM EST
    but are you 100% sure that call came from the Clinton camp? I saw a video of a girl in TX who spoke to an alleged caucus rep on speaker phone who was telling her the date & time had been changed and she busted them as being Obama supporters who were calling Clinton delegates. I wish I could find the link or could remember the girl's name, but I saw it with my own eyes.

    [ Parent ]
    The Original Notice Came By Email And I (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:43:00 PM EST
    responded.  The turndown came via phone.  And if I was had by the obama camp, I am going to....not sure, I already despise him more than I thought possible.  I hate lying, cheating and underhanded tactics!!

    [ Parent ]
    It sounds like you got had by these thugs. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:51:45 PM EST
    I can not fathom they would have wanted any of their delegates not to show up.

    [ Parent ]
    "slapping my forehead" I Did Think It (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:11:09 PM EST
    a bit strange when they said they had enough people...I got punk'd!!  This majorly sucks...

    [ Parent ]
    Retrieve the e-header and get some cyber-CSIs (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Ellie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:31:36 PM EST
    ... on it. That Unity Hope Change crap needs exposing, or, if it came from the Rethugs, that should get looked at too.

    [ Parent ]
    The full header is of utmost (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by kredwyn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:09:44 PM EST
    importance when it comes to trying to determine where the email actually came from.

    [ Parent ]
    Agree. I called phone-banked before (none / 0) (#70)
    by LHinSeattle on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:05:20 PM EST
    our leg distr caucuses to plead with people to show up, alternates or whatever, because we might need them.    

    My first caucus training with the Dean campaign emphasized everybody showing up at the next level caucuses -- so we could grab some spots if the lazy Kerry delegates didn't show.

    BTW I'll never campaign for Dean again for anything after what he's done this campaign cycle.

    [ Parent ]

    thank you, sir (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by kempis on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:03:08 PM EST
    BTD: Let me put it bluntly, anyone holding up the pledged delegate count as representing the "will of the people" is simply full of it.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you.

    I cannot believe that people make that argument, but they do. In fact someone argued with me just yesterday that the pledged delegate count was a more accurate measurement of the will of the people than was the popular vote. I just didn't know what to say  to that, so I just shook my head and moved along. Been doing a lot of that lately.

    So thank you.

    Oh my goodness, no! (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Fabian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:15:22 PM EST
    From caucuses, to weighting for later primaries for weighting voting districts and counties, to open, closed and semi open primaries - the delegate count is in NO way representative of voters.

    I can't even imagine trying to plot a map showing the registered Dem voters per delegate, and the I and R voters per delegate, and additional numbers for historic GE turnout, current primary turnout and the projected total current GE voter turnout.

    But that map would show you an amazingly wide variation in the number of registered Dem voters represented by a single delegate.

    It's just mind boggling.  

    [ Parent ]

    Mind boggling is right (none / 0) (#172)
    by ruffian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:17:13 PM EST
    I've been trying to come up with an analogy, but it defies even that.

    If the voting system for 'American Idol' were this screwed up, Fox would have had so many complaints they would have had to take the show off the air 5 years ago.  Not that that would have been a bad thing.


    [ Parent ]

    But (none / 0) (#16)
    by kempis on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:09:02 PM EST
    Gotta disagree with you here:

    In my opinion, Barack Obama will be the nominee of the Democratic Party. At this point I believe he is the choice, by a very narrow margin, of the will of the people as I believe he still leads in the popular vote.

    It all depends on whose votes are counted, and frankly the caucuses make it darned hard to ascertain the will of the majority of voters in those states.

    [ Parent ]

    I cound EVERYONE'S votes (3.50 / 2) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:11:41 PM EST
    I am just as disgusted by Clinton supporters who believe the votes of caucus goers should not count.

    That is the flip side of the disgraceful Obama supporters who cheer this thwarting of the will of the people.

    I find both groups equally loathsome.

    [ Parent ]

    to clarify, I'm not arguing that caucus votes be (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by kempis on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:26:57 PM EST
    disregarded. I'm arguing that caucus votes are an inadequate measure of the "will of the people" in a state.

    We need to get rid of the damned caucuses. Primaries allow more people to vote, and the Democratic party should be interested in letting as many people as possible vote.

    [ Parent ]

    It is the system that exists to count votes (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:29:39 PM EST
    in some states. I loathe caucusues. But I will NOT disregard caucus voters.

    [ Parent ]
    again, I'm not sure who here is for not counting (none / 0) (#73)
    by kempis on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:07:13 PM EST
    caucus votes. But it's not me.

    All I'm saying is that the system needs to change. Until it changes, however, yes, we should include them in popular vote tallies. Sadly, though, they will not contribute much to our understanding of exactly what the will of the people in their state is.

    [ Parent ]

    Caucus votes should count but too many doubts (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by bridget on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:37:24 PM EST
    linger re the Obama caucus votes IMHO

    I read more than one eyewitness account about caucus process in this primary, the last detailed one from a Texas HC supporter - describing how Obama people tried to dominate the process. AFAIK Thousands of complaints were made by those who witnessed questionable stuff. I expected to hear about it later. But nothing happened. Why not?

    This is the first time ever that I am seriously doubting the accuracy of the caucus votes in any primary so far. And its only because I got the impression that  some of the Obama supporters who worked the caucuses v. aggressively tried to get the upperhand any which way in order to gain votes.

    my two cents

    [ Parent ]

    The Tx powers that be (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:40:05 PM EST
    decided not to investigate any complaints or cheating of the rules or any disturbing irregularities at the caucuses. Many complaints were made (to Hillary's offices as well)but nothing was done. My experience was relatively calm compared to what I read and heard about..alot was written on this website. How can we count these?

    [ Parent ]
    Many issues were settled (none / 0) (#198)
    by wasabi on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:34:27 PM EST
    Many issues in Travis county (Austin) were settled in the county credentials committee prior to the county convention as per an insider.  All challenges were decided unanimously.  Obama lost several delegates.

    [ Parent ]
    Caucus votes should count. (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by alexei on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:52:21 PM EST
    But, if there were primaries in those states as well, I believe that the votes from the primaries should be the ones to count in the popular vote total.  Caucuses are unrepresentative and undemocratic; that is why, I think that those primaries should be counted for the popular vote.

    [ Parent ]
    I never said they should not count. (none / 0) (#22)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:14:10 PM EST
    I still think Hill will end with the pop vote.

    [ Parent ]
    I did the TX 2-step-voted and (none / 0) (#32)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:30:03 PM EST
    caucused. How can you count (or count-on) votes organized by people who don't know what they are doing, don't know rules and accepts causcusers who may or may not have voted earlier through standard voting (which was required). This is fair?...from what I know, so many rules were not followed, broken, side-swept etc. How do we know that we are truly represented? Dean wants us to look to tomorrow to build up the party and perhaps thought this stupid delegate system was good...we are broken from this system...I wonder if when he and Obama are looking into the future, they see themselves as old or older and disenfranchised and insulted by the party!! Hope I kept on subject..I tried.

    [ Parent ]
    I do NOT count the Texas caucus votes (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:34:03 PM EST
    Their votes were counted in the Texas primary.

    Texas' system is especially disgraceful.

    [ Parent ]

    But, but you just said to count (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by zfran on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:36:49 PM EST
    caucus votes and legit (I'm paraphrasing). So my vote didn't count? How is that fair. How is a caucus representative government when all of the people did not have the means to vote. It probably is what it is, but it isn't fair and should be discounted. Florida and Michigan voted when they didn't even have to and their votes are going to be discounted (to favor one over another probably). Is that fair?

    [ Parent ]
    What was Hillary counting (none / 0) (#67)
    by makana44 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:02:39 PM EST
    on the conference call yesterday when she told everyone she was 50,000 votes ahead?

    [ Parent ]
    The entire process is (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:04:40 PM EST
    ... alienating, imo.

    And Obama was my first choice. But between the spectacles of this primary and the behavior of his supporters, I have been led right back to where I was before the invasion of Iraq: convinced that the political process has little or nothing to do with me and serves only those with the loudest mouths and the most money.

    I am, iow, quite nearly entirely disaffected.

    Loudest mouths and most money. You are (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Teresa on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:07:15 PM EST
    right as usual. I hope your house hunting/buying went well.

    [ Parent ]
    I gave them until Monday - which was a freaking mistake, as I'm dying here from anxiety!

    But fingers crossed, all goes well and I am, by this time next month, a virtual real estate tycoon with my city home and my country home. Gad, I must be insane! :D

    [ Parent ]

    It burns we up too. And no, you won't hear a (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Teresa on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:04:48 PM EST
    word. They are what they have preached against all this time. Not just those two, but millions of them.

    Thank you for your integrity BTD. You are on the side of the voters and fairness and you can't ever be wrong with that choice.

    Even Cokie Roberts sees the light (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by angie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:08:52 PM EST
    http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0508/croberts.php3

    Cokie has been my go-to girl (none / 0) (#182)
    by ruffian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:22:46 PM EST
    for a few months now.  She is very astute about these primaries, though I don't always agree with her on other national issues.

    [ Parent ]
    The 'popular vote' (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by eleanora on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:15:41 PM EST
    is kind of a misnomer anyway, when you look at places that had both caucuses and primaries. In WA and NE, most calculations are counting the caucuses in the popular vote totals instead of the primaries where more people turned up to vote. Do those additional voters just cease to exist because no delegates were at stake? Kind of an "if a tree falls in the forest..." argument, if so.

    And I'm still concerned that four states haven't released vote totals for their caucuses. If they don't keep track of how many people were there, how on earth do they allocate delegates? And how can the DNC just accept the numbers the state parties offer without some hard numbers to back them up? People had to sign in under a candidate to participate in every caucus, just take the sign in sheets and count. every. vote.

    Exactly (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:52:47 PM EST
    It was at that point (caucuses in states that also had primaries) that my "yeesh, what's the point of even voting?" antenna went up.

    [ Parent ]
    Should have been in TX (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by RalphB on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:13:16 PM EST
    it was an unholy mess.  Makes you want to scream screw it as loud as possible.


    [ Parent ]
    I was "not on the official list" (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by LHinSeattle on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:09:50 PM EST
    of delegates when I went to the next level caucuses. Thank deities they kept the original forms, where I'd signed in. But somehow was left OFF the handwritten delegate list. None of BHO's were missing (tinfoil rustles).

    And while I kept insisting I see the handwritten originals, the Dem official was telling me "It's OK, we're not going to steal votes, we're not Repubs, don't worry."  

    Right.

    [ Parent ]

    dem upside downism (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by pluege on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:16:51 PM EST
    doesn't winning a corrupt system prove that Obama is the better candidate for the democrats in the fall?

    Corruption isn't the same (none / 0) (#26)
    by mg7505 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:25:22 PM EST
    from system to system. TLers have a lot of analysis about the electoral college, which is the corrupt system that we have to worry about when choosing a nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    So I guess (none / 0) (#59)
    by magisterludi on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:54:20 PM EST
     a winner-take-all system would please you?

    [ Parent ]
    Well, that's closer to the Electoral Votes (none / 0) (#64)
    by LHinSeattle on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:01:05 PM EST
    system, which is after all how GEs are actually won now. In which case Hillary would have sewed this up long ago.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, under the same system the Repubs have, she (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:03:40 PM EST
    would likely have earned the nomination on Super Tuesday.  Obama and the Dem's who support him(tepidly or otherwise) can go ahead and annoint him, but he'll have done so without any sort of mandate.

    [ Parent ]
    You know, this is just as bad as when BO (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:30:50 PM EST
    goes out and declares himself the winner.  Your arguing that BO will narrowly lead the "will of the people", which is clearly an unknown, just adds to all the voices saying she won't, she can't, don't even try it.  It depresses participation.  It's bad stuff.  

    I hope all the women in the swing states (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:44:37 PM EST
    where Hill won their vote by a hefty margin make all the jerks who couldn't just let a tight contest play out make the Dem's rue the day they annointed the candidate who thought we needed more more arabic translators in Afghanistan.  They may be close on the issues but they are worlds apart on preparedness, character and intellect.

    [ Parent ]
    He also thinks KY is next to AK (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by angie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:52:05 PM EST
    among the plethora of reasons Obama is giving as to why he will lose KY (so he's not going to bother with it either) he said:
    "What it says is that I'm not very well known in that part of the country," Obama said. "Sen. Clinton, I think, is much better known, coming from a nearby state of Arkansas. So it's not surprising that she would have an advantage in some of those states in the middle."
    Dumbo -- KY actual borders IL, so by your reasoning you should be better known there then Hillary. Lordamercy -- this man is running for President of the Unites States -- all 57 of them.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by The Troubadour on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:37:15 PM EST
    ...that the proportional delegate system for the Democratic primaries is horribly flawed. Obviously, there should be direct, popular representation. (Don't even get me started on the electoral college for the GE.)

    That said, the flawed system cannot be used as a wedge to JUSTIFY that the nomination should in any way be Clinton's. Why? Both campaigns strategically campaigned and operated under the working assumptions contained in this flawed delegate system. It is precisely why Clinton lost: Penn was an idiot in his strategic planning for the caucuses and primaries after February 4th.

    So while I would agree with any Clinton supporter that the system is a terrible mess currently, both candidates played by the same flawed rules, and understood well (I hope) how the game worked.

    Should the rules be changed? Absolutely. But when the NFL changed rules this past year to improve certain aspects of its game, it didn't retroactively go back and change results according to those rule changes. To do so would be, well, ridiculous.

    The rules were stacked (5.00 / 3) (#186)
    by denise on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:24:15 PM EST
    against Clinton from the beginning since they took away 2 big states that she would probably have won.

    Considering this and other things, one could wonder whether the nomination was being rigged.

    [ Parent ]

    States she could win (5.00 / 3) (#192)
    by angie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:29:08 PM EST
    and in fact, did win.

    [ Parent ]
    Where do I use it as a wedge (2.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:40:04 PM EST
    Indeed, I state EXPRESSLY thaty I believe that Obama is and will be the narrow choice of the the people.

    This type of straq crap is what so infuriates me.

    Address what I write please. do not make arguments to refute.

    Stop it. Now. I get very hot about this subject.

    [ Parent ]

    You haven't BTD... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by The Troubadour on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:43:06 PM EST
    ...I was responding to this sentiment that is often expressed: that the flawed system makes the popular vote a better measure currently. It simply isn't true.

    It was not my intention to suggest that you were arguing such, and I should have made that clear.

    [ Parent ]

    Of course it is true (3.33 / 3) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:44:49 PM EST
    Obama is leading in the popular vote right now.

    It is ridiculous to argue the popular vote is not the best measure of the will of the people.

    I can not believe you can argue it is not with a straight face.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD.... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by The Troubadour on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:48:05 PM EST
    You understand that my argument is sound in this case. The campaigns strategically campaigned and focused resources based on DELEGATES, and not popular vote totals. This is why you had a disproportionate investment on the part of the candidates in districts with odd numbered delegates.

    In any normal setting the popular vote would of course represent the will of the people better than delegates. But when campaigns are working under the assumption that delegates are what matter, and focus to accumulate delegates instead of vote totals, then the will of the people is not the best indicator.

    You know this to be true.

    [ Parent ]

    That is ridiculous (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:57:45 PM EST
    What exactly did they do that they would NOT have done if the metric was only the popular vote?

    I do not buy that BS for one second.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by The Troubadour on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:06:30 PM EST
    You've followed this process closer than most. And you are well aware that each campaign has not only sent the candidates to specific locations based upon odd-numbered delegate districts, but their surrogates as well. The entire strategy has not been based on blanketing regions, and accumulating the largest popular vote totals, but instead on siphoning off delegates in unbalanced congressional districts.

    And this works for everything, BTD. Mailers, robo-calls, you name it. They are all strategically placed based on delegates to maximize investments made financially, given the cost of these endeavors.

    Look, here is where we both agree: THE POPULAR VOTE--ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE--is how this system should work, and it needs to be reformed.

    Unfortunately, this is not the rule we're playing by currently, and so popular vote cannot necessarily be an indicator in the current primary of which campaign has garnered the most support.

    This is simply the facts on the ground.

    [ Parent ]

    One person one vote IS (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by Raven15 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:49:25 PM EST
    in effect here, 35 million times over. You can't rationalize away the popular vote totals. The delegate count is one metric, the popular vote total is another. True D/democrats would argue that the PV is a much more important measure--and less flawed, as BTD argues here.

     Obama and supporters should spend more time trying to win over people's votes than finding myriad ways to dismiss them.

    [ Parent ]

    "Dear old golden rule days" (none / 0) (#112)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:28:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Nonsense (none / 0) (#133)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:48:54 PM EST
    Sheer nonsense. I do not believe a word of it. Provide me some evidence of that. That is pure unadulterated BS.

    [ Parent ]
    This doesn't make sense to me (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Dr Molly on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:16:25 PM EST
    You're arguing that we can't fairly make a nominee selection based on popular vote because both campaigns operated under the paradigm of delegate math, and admittedly Obama did better at this. That's fair. I agree.

    But that does not translate into the argument that the popular vote is not a better representation of the will of the people. I took it that what BTD was talking about was what best represents the will of the people, not what system the campaigns operated under.

    These points are not mutually exclusive - popular vote can best capture the will of the people, and at the same time, it can be the case that both campaigns knew they were operating under a delegate system.

    [ Parent ]

    Dr. Molly... (none / 0) (#98)
    by The Troubadour on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:21:02 PM EST
    Again, I'll state that I believe that the primaries (and GE) should operate on a popular vote model.

    If you don't understand the direct relationship between strategic targeting of delegates and delegate accumulation, and popular vote totals as ancillary to the principal targets, then there's nothing else that can be said.

    Unfortunately in this case, under these rules, they are mutually exclusive.

    [ Parent ]

    "Round and Round It Goes (none / 0) (#109)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:26:59 PM EST
    where it stops no one knows"

    [ Parent ]
    "It's Gotta Be Me, Wonderful Me" (none / 0) (#103)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:23:53 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It wasn't just Kid Oakland and TINS (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by frankly0 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:48:15 PM EST
    who were on their moral high horse about "disenfranchising voters" in Nevada. It was Josh Marshall, and John Kerry, and just about every other pompous hypocrite on the liberal side.

    And now, not a single peep out of those phonies about voter disenfranchisment and the will of the people.

    Really, this was the first issue that fully exposed, to me, just how deeply biased and dismissive and arrogant a sizable portion of the liberal movement and blogosphere really was.

    delegate system is a travesty (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by democrat1 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:53:57 PM EST
    If pledged delegate total is sacrosanct, how come already pledged delegates are switching their votes? Who gave them their right when they are supposed to represent the will of the people. It is hereto believed that they can not change their vote until at least the first round of voting. If they change their vote even before that, what happened to their pledge or will of the people who voted?

    That shows there is no meaning for the pledged delegates.  We should value only the popular vote totals and abolish caucuses and pledged delegate system.

    Or if we want to have some sort of proportional representation, we should mimic GE's electoral college with the restriction that only registered members of the party can vote in a primary

    How to Game the Democratic Caucus System: (5.00 / 8) (#60)
    by suskin on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:54:21 PM EST
    1.    Round up as many supporters as possible; it doesn't matter how old they are (15, 16, 17, it's all good); it doesn't matter whether they live in the State or a particular district, or whether they are registered Democrats, Republicans, or unregistered voters (in most cases same day registration and re-registration is permitted, and there will be no way to verify eligibility until it's too late).
    2.    Bus those supporters to the caucus minutes before the sign in period ends.  The crowd will overwhelm the workers so most of your supporters won't have to sign in at all.  Confusion is your friend. For those supporters who do sign in, there is usually no ID requirement. New and re-registrants can scribble their names and addresses if anonymity is preferred.
    3.    The "crush" will serve the dual purpose of creating confusion and extending the length of the caucus.  The longer the caucus, the greater the odds that your Opponent's supporters will leave due to familial or employment obligations, or medical needs.  The elderly are particularly prone to leave early, especially if there is no seating available and they have to stand in line for hours, which is usually the case.  
    4.    In this same vein, extend the speech making portion of the caucus as long as possible.  
    5.    Employ peer pressure.  Remember, the elderly are especially good targets.
    6.    Make sure to tell your supporters to "caucus" near the door, that way any late comers can join in when no one is looking.
    7.    Be creative with your hand count; since it's an on-your-honor system, it doesn't matter if you pad your numbers because no one will know.
    8.    If you are in a State where the vote is taken by sign in sheets (like Texas), download the forms from the State Democratic Party website early and have supporters who can't attend the caucuses "sign in".  Then slip the sign in sheets into the pile when they are collected at the caucus - there will be confusion so no one will know.  Also, tell your supporters to "sign in" on multiple sheets, that way they can "vote" more than once.
    9.    If the caucuses follow primary voting, get supporters to serve as election judges or poll watchers, or otherwise stand outside the polling doors and tell  your Opponent's supporters that there isn't going to be a caucus tonight.  
    10.    Once the caucus begins, get a supporter elected Caucus Chair, if possible, and close delegate nominations before your Opponent's supporters can agree on delegates to nominate.
    11.    If the precinct heavily favors your Opponent, have a supporter pose as a supporter of your Opponent and run for Chair/Secretary.  Also have them run for delegate - they can change their presidential preference later. If your supporter is elected Chair/Secretary, have him/her hold off sending the results to the County Chair as long as possible - and if your Opponent's delegate lists get "lost" all the better.  
    12.    Following the caucuses, have your supporters call your Opponent's delegates (they can get the lists from the county chairs), and tell them they have been replaced by another delegate and don't need to come.  Have them call your Opponent's alternates and tell them the delegate slots have been filled and there won't be room for alternates to attend. A follow up call telling them that the Convention has been cancelled or rescheduled wouldn't hurt either.
    13.    Tell your supporters to go to the county convention "in mass" even if they're not delegates or alternates.  The more people, the longer the lines, and the greater the confusion.
    14.    If your Opponent's delegates and alternates don't show, your alternates will be able to step into the open delegate slots. If you don't have any available alternates, anyone will do (in most cases no one will know).
    15.    If there is sufficient confusion, your supporters may also be able to pose as delegates in precincts where your candidate didn't win delegates. Or, they may be able to pose as supporters of and be elected delegates for your Opponent - they can change their preference later.
    16.    Where state delegates are apportioned by caucus votes, your supporters can out smart your Opponent's supporters even when they are out numbered. Train your supporters to get your Opponent's delegates to vote first.  If they split their votes among multiple nominees, your supporters can "team vote" in one of their delegates.  If your opponent's delegates cast all their votes for one nominee, your delegates can pick up alternate slots with as little as one vote.  
    17.    Getting control of the county convention is key.  Your supporters should get themselves appointed to the credentials committee, rules committee, or better yet, chair, etc.  Have them hide their presidential preference or pose as your Opponent's supporters so they can maximize coverage.  Control of the convention will permit creative application of the rules to maximize delegate counts.  
    18.    The longer the convention, the more open delegate seats you will be able to pick up if your Opponent's delegates leave.  It is particularly effective if the convention runs past midnight, especially if sign in commences at 10am.  Plan to have a second shift of supporters come who can take delegates' seats if they have to leave.  In many cases, delegates will have tags they can easily remove and give to replacements so no one will know.  
    19.    The same strategies apply to the state level conventions, remember, confusion will be your friend.
    20.    Don't be concerned with after-the-fact verification of voter/delegate eligibility.  In most cases the results will stand even if a voter/delegate is disqualified since the vote counts are more often than not by hand, and thus, it will be impossible to determine how any one voter/delegate voted.  Further, as a practical matter, it's not likely that voter eligibility verification will ever be conducted. The Democratic Party does not want the public to know how vulnerable and corrupt the caucuses are. The Party believes that caucuses are party builders.  If word were to get out that the caucuses are corrupt, it might undermine that goal, not to mention the integrity of the entire Democratic Nomination process.  So, mums the word.

    You went to the same caucuses I did! (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by LHinSeattle on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:13:41 PM EST
    Describes it exactly at both levels.  I didn't have the stomach to continue on the the next level.  Fortunately at that level lots of other folks did for our side.


    [ Parent ]
    sounds like (none / 0) (#166)
    by isaac on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:12:34 PM EST
    you've done this before.  what an idiotic system, and what a corrupt campaign.  from what i've heard this persistent gaming of the system is too widespread not to be a coordinated strategy.  they are as bad as rove, they do it to their own

    [ Parent ]
    Calling it... (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Alec82 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:01:58 PM EST
    ...for what it is:

    As we have known for a long time, the Democratic delegate selection process is a travesty.

     We have? The collective "we" that has known this is, apparently, the Clinton camp, which prepared a shock and awe strategy designed to end the nomination process after Super Tuesday.  Outmanuvered by a smart, cost-efficient grassroots campaign, a large percentage of anti-war progressives and a media that, to be fair, was suffering from anti-Clinton bias and a perverse sexism, the strategy was disastrous.  

     Regarding Florida and Michigan, I concur, the Dems screwed that one up royally, but only from a PR perspective.  No one has the "right" to participate in a political party's primary process.  But those were not contests, and the Clinton camp is not doing itself any favors by calling for the delegates to be seated as is, at least in Michigan.  The notion that Michigan Democrats who would have preferred a chance to vote for Edwards (as my family was planning on) or who would now support Obama (ditto) will be placated by seating a Clinton delegation is not only absurd, it is insulting.  Politically Michigan is a 50-50 state, for all intents and purposes.  The only reason Senator McCain doesn't have a chance in hell is because of the economy.

    If you were serious about how absurd the primary rules are, you would also be attacking the inclusion of Guam, Puerto Rico, etc.  You're not, however, which leads me to conclude that you're simply upset that the Clinton campaign did not have the foresight and vision to contest caucuses and primaries, that they did not have the organizational skills to pull it off, and that they are now in a position where they are making an ugly electability argument that assumes, inter alia, that whites will not vote for Obama.

     I'm in favor of discussing possible changes to party rules to make it a straight popular vote calculation, but I have yet to see a "travesty" as you do.  

    Which is more fair? The way the (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by MarkL on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:08:17 PM EST
    FL delegates were selected, or the way the TX and NV delegates were selected? There's no question that the FL primary represents the will of the people far more than either of those travesties.
    YOU represent the will of the DNC, not the will of the people.

    [ Parent ]
    Outrageous (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by andgarden on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:09:12 PM EST
    the Dems screwed that one up royally, but only from a PR perspective. No one has the "right" to participate in a political party's primary process.
    Have you ever heard of Smith v. Allwright and the All White Primary?

    Intentionally disenfranchising certain categories of people who are otherwise eligible to vote to serve some other purpose (party building, controlling the calendar, etc.) disgusts me.

    [ Parent ]

    Like... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Alec82 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:15:36 PM EST
    ...closed primaries?

    [ Parent ]
    No, not like closed primaries (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by andgarden on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:18:07 PM EST
    unless we apply different rules to those who register in a party than those who register in general. I don't know of a state or a state party where that is the case.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by cmugirl on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:16:08 PM EST
    As a born and raised Michigander, I think McCain has an excellent shot at winning Michigan.  You have the conservative Republicans of western Michigan, the conservative Democrats of "up north" and the UP, Macomb County and the rest of the "Reagan Democrats" and what's left for Obama to pick up?  Detroit, Flint, Benton Harbor, Ann Arbor, and Lansing?  Don't count on it.  Plus any Hillary supporters who just won't vote the top of the ticket (my mom being one, and my dad will probably vote for McCain).

    McCain is pretty popular there.  And if Romney is the VP, plus a pretty unpopular Democratic governor - that's a recipe for Michigan to be red.

    [ Parent ]

    I grew up there too... (none / 0) (#101)
    by Alec82 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:22:44 PM EST
    ..