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Clinton Media Call Live Blog

Terry McCauliffe says last night was a fantastic night. There was a record turnout. Clinton won by 41%. We are in this thing. They raised over a million dollars last night. Financially they are in good shape. They feel comfortable about where they are today. A big fundraiser powwow this afternoon. Tremendous enthusiasm for this campaign.

Now ahead in the popular vote.

Howard Wolfson - we had to have a big night in WV, we had it. A stunning 40 point victory. A state where Clinton won in 1992 and 1996. A decisive state. Hillary Clinton will carry WV in November. Obama had more money and more people and more resources and Clinton decisively defeated him. WV said no to all the pundits and people who said it was time for the contest to end.

More below . . .

Florida and Michigan must be seated as the states voted. We do not believe the Dem Party in its political wisdom will not seat the FL and MI delegations. Because it is the smart thing to do but also because it is the right thing to do. The Magic Number is 2210.

Wolfson makes the familiar swing state, big state electability argument.

Bill Sammon - what is Clinton trying to get out of this? Wolfson, to become the Presidential nominee.

Jim Axelrod - Asks about 2210 number. Talks about previous contradictory statements. Wolfson dances. talks about number of voters who actually voted. [Bottom line, the statements were contradictory, but so what? Do we want to win in November?]

Axelrod is very fired up about this. It is pretty funny.

Wolfson finally tells him that Hillary Clinton said the night of the Florida primary that the Florida delegation should be seated. It was a very funny exchange.

Kate Snow of AP - what did Clinton and Obama discuss on the Senate floor? Did they discuss her debt? Wolfson - No discussion of the debt. Just pleasantries.

The Navy denied Hillary Clinton access to Vieques, why does Clinton want to go to Vieques? Wolfson has no idea about the issue.

Minnesota, no Dem has won without it since 1912. Wolfson says caucuses are not reflective of general election results. Points to Washington and Nebraska results yesterday. Wolfson says while it is obviously not a one to one relationship primary to GE, but a result in West Virginia is more meaningful than a win in safe state like NY and Ill.

Anne Kornblut asks what the MS result last night (Childers win) means that Obama is not a drag in congressional races. Wolfson congratulates all involved, but there is a problem when the candidate (Childers) ran an ad distancing himself from Obama.

How big a win in KY? Wolfson not as big as WV. But Clinton will do well. We will compete in Oregon.

MI and FL delegate allocation, what will you accept? Clinton wants full seating that reflects the vote.

NARAL has endorsed Barack Obama. What is your reaction to that? Wolfson is very surprised by NARAL's endorsement. Clinton's advocacy for choice issues is second to none.

I asked about the May 31 RBC process whereby the FL/MI question will be decided. I asked specifically who will be participating. I further asked that since Clinton camp, the Obama camp and the DNC Chair "howard Dean have all said they want the delegations seated is it possible that a faction of the DNC, led by Donna Brazile, could block the seating of these delegations over the wishes of the candidates and ther DNC Chair.

Phil Singer responded that the Clinton campaign is confident that the DNC will act in the best interests of the Party, which is to act in a way that helps the Party win in November, which would mean seating the Florida and Michigan delegations. In terms of the RBC process, Singer was unsure what would happen as the agenda had not yet been released, but that it would be an open and public process that will be seen by the entire country.

That ended the call.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Does Terry not know that it's over? (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by rooge04 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:26:53 PM EST
    No one told WV!

    Just for the record (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by makana44 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:27:54 PM EST
    Another quote from John Petty

    Hillary is going to finish up essentially tied with Sen. Obama in the popular vote.  Half the Democratic Party supports her.  Treating her like the enemy--read a few of the comments at dailykos or TPM or Huffington Post--and the Obama campaign invites disaster upon itself.  Calling her supporters "racists" and "Archie Bunkers" isn't exactly the most brilliant move either.

    Just for the record, it isn't just the "white working class" that supports Hillary.  With the exception of African-Americans, it's the entire working class--whites yes, and also hispanics and asians.  At least some of the Obama supporters--the triumphalists--seem to enjoy the thought of purging the Democratic Party of these lesser beings and replacing them with "all the new people we're bringing in."

    That would be the path of electoral catastrophe.  It wouldn't even be "winning ugly."  It would be "losing ugly."      

    Check this out . . . (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:46:48 PM EST
    on today's Ostroy Report:

    When pundits and the Obama supporters use the math to bolster his position, you don't hear much about the pre-March/post-March math. But take a look at these stats: since March 1st, Clinton has won 400 delegates to Obama's 392, and 5,857,517 popular votes to Obama's 5,511,513. Pretty interesting, huh? Kind of changes the whole math myth, doesn't it? Truly puts everything in perspective, especially as argued by the Clinton campaign. Should the super-delegates, as the Obamacans would like, ignore what the numbers behind the numbers indicate?


    [ Parent ]

    what about this: (none / 0) (#69)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:00:42 PM EST
    Points to Washington and Nebraska results yesterday.

    Could someone recap this?  A poster was talking about NE last night and I am totally lost.  (Been phone banking all morning!)  And, was Axelrod on the Clinton call???

    [ Parent ]

    NE Had a Primary Yesterday (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by BDB on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:07:09 PM EST
    But, like Washington, the local democratic party selects delegates through a caucus.  The primary was much, much closer with Obama beating Hillary 49-47%.  Interesting that neither of them got over 50%.

    Here's an interesting piece at MYDD about how it appears to violate the spirit, if not the letter of the DNC rules to count caucuses instead of primaries.

    [ Parent ]

    very interesting.... (none / 0) (#132)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:24:03 PM EST
    I read somewhere that Clinton is now ahead in the popular vote in primary states.  With WA, TX, and NE all showing massive disparities between popular votes and caucus results, I think that any irregularities in the caucuses in those states would be grounds for a very serious credentials challenge.

    Clinton can't challenge the caucus selected delegations based solely on the existence of the primaries, because the caucuses themselves had to be approved by the DNC in advance.  But the fact that primary elections were held in each state (and how many other states that didn't hold beauty contests?) should place a tremendous burden on those states when it comes to the question of ensuring that the rules governing each state's caucuses that were provided to the DNC were scrupulously followed and enforced.

    We all know what a mess Texas was -- and I've heard some stuff about Washington state as well.  Any funny business in Nebraska?

    [ Parent ]

    Ther's still some funny business in Texas. (none / 0) (#203)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:19:23 PM EST
    It has been reported on three occassions and taken to the local caucus regulatory commission (my name, I don't recall how that body is called)that there were blatant irregularities of Obama representatives forcing caucuses in the Houston area to be closed several hours before schedule, denying entry to  long lines of Clinton supporters. The people responsible for the caucusses involved were blatant Obama supporters. Litigation process "seems" to be suspended in air and dismissed as the "heir apparent" to the nomination has been gaining ground.
    Fresh in my memory was the Indiana vote were the mayor held the Clinton vote until publicly pressured and embarrassed by a pro-Clinton Indiana mayor and Wolf Blitzer's CNN in a conference in the 12am call; do you remember that? It was a fortuituos call because I truly believe they were in the process of stealing Clinton's win, which by ALL counts, she was poised to win by at least a 4-6 point margin.
    I better stop here and compile my notes on each of the "dubious" results, and will report later.

    [ Parent ]
    I think "Jim" Axelrod is a reporter (none / 0) (#85)
    by Anne on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    with one of the networks - CBS, maybe?

    [ Parent ]
    And if you start counting the popular vote . . (none / 0) (#204)
    by jericho4119 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:24:00 PM EST
    . . on May 13th, then Clinton is in the lead by hundreds of thousands of votes!

    This is a contest and like all contests, it has rules.

    Michigan and Florida broke those rules.

    Traditionally, the breaking of rules has penalties.  Regardless of what those penalties turn out to be, the "count the popular vote" arguments that give Obama zero votes in MI (after all, his name was not on the ballot) are beyond the pale.

    There is at least one Obama voter in the state of Michigan and an effort must be made to ensure their vote (or lack thereof, if they stayed home when they were told the vote would not count) is counted.

    It's only fair.

    [ Parent ]

    But is is Kos, Huffington, and Josh Marshall.. (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by AX10 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:52:46 PM EST
    who have all been disrespectful towards Hillary and her supporters.  It should be no suprise that 90%+ of the netroots have followed their lead in beating on Hillary and anyone who supports her.
    Obama also has no problem accepting the support of Kos, Huffington, Marshall, Moveon, etc....
    So they do speak for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually, it does surprise me a great (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:57:04 PM EST
    deal.  At least at DK, commenters and diarists enjoyed disagreeing with each other until this campaign.

    [ Parent ]
    The Obama Movement Is All About Unity (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by BDB on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:08:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yeah I'm feeling the unity (none / 0) (#198)
    by Iris on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:41:25 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    HuffPo has now gone (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by Serene1 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    beyond ridiculous. First their headline screamed Hillary wins WV- does it matter. Now the headline screams Why? (with a picture of Hillary in Shadow)
    Is She... Praying For A Devastating Anti-Obama Story?... Convinced She's Finally Hit Her Stride... Physically Unable To Accept Defeat.

    That's the headlined article. The remaining articles are variations of Hillary is racist, looser yada yada.

    And Hillary is expected to be the veep of the candidate whose high profile backers short of branding her a terrorist have branded her everything else.

    [ Parent ]

    So true (none / 0) (#129)
    by joanneleon on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:21:10 PM EST
    I took them off my bookmark list months ago when they started going off the rails with their infotainment coverage, but I never dreamed they'd get this bad.

    I saw Arianna on The Colbert Report recently too.  It was pretty embarrassing.  I used to like and respect her.

    [ Parent ]

    Ariana did a book promo at FDL.... (none / 0) (#137)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:28:00 PM EST
    ...and its pretty obvious that absolutely no questions about her being in the tank for Obama were permitted to see the light of day.  So, while FDL is still readable, you can add it to the list of OBot sites -- its commentariate is as bad as DKos'.

    [ Parent ]
    couldn't agree more (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by londonamerican on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:40:10 PM EST
    for me, the real hope and tragedy of this series of primaries is that hillary has managed to put real progressive issues on the table and to connect with the historical bedrock of the democratic party (whose desertion of the party after being talked down to by "creative class" types was what led to years if republican domination starting in 1980) - and at the same time to be vilified by the brilliant party officials and media frat-boys whose "strategy" of systematically alienating working people in favour of "new coalitions"  has led to electoral disaster year after year.

    when the democratic party stopped being the party of working people and instead represented the interests of upper-middle-income and overly-socialised "creative" or "new class" types was when the demonisation of working class people became politcally correct in the party and when the democratic party became uncompetitive on the national stage. telling your traditional voters that they are "uneducated"/stupid, "racist" or "white trash" isn't a great way to win elections, even if it does relieve some class anxiety that the democratic party elites seem to feel.

    this year, we had a chance to reverse that. hillary was actually talking about things that matter to working people, and - amazing for a modern democrat - she wasn't condescending or taking down to them either, nor was she lecturing them on how they could improve themselves by being more like her.

    i can never forgive the sexist onslaught against hillary by the obama fratboys nor the class-based attacks on her voters from  the same sources.

    hopefully, hillary will continue to win as she has done in new york, massachusetts, new jersey, california,  texas, ohio, pennsylvania, indiana and most recently with her incredible 41% win in west virginia and go on doing so in kentucky and puero rico -- and carry the fight all the way to the convention if necessary.

    we now have a chance to build a real progressive politics with a popular base among working people. we cannot afford to give that historic opportunity up!


    [ Parent ]

    the mcgovern path (none / 0) (#166)
    by christinep on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:51:19 PM EST
    This talk of "all the new people" that Obama is bringing to the party is exciting at first. Yet, I recall that McGovern thought pretty much the same (as inspired by G Hart) in 1972.  It didn't work...in the years that followed, the youngest of the new went the Reagan way. Everything, of course, is trade-off. For me, it is very risky to trade off seniors who vote, certain women demographics who vote, and Latinos who are voting more and more for the bird-in-the-bush possibility of a larger turnout than ever before of youth who, at most, would merely offset the loss of less than one of the other demographics.  There seem to be a lot of people fascinated by the entry level political math.  What I think would be telling is to see a serious portrayal (with factual backup) of how the "demographics" realistically might fall when the opposition is an older Westerner who is attractive to both older women and to Latinos and who has a heroic biography with some kind of reputation as a maverick. At the very least, any calculus that relies too heavily on a new number of Western states needs to be scrutinized carefully. The reality of history and electoral numbers really suggests that Hillary's swing state argument is quite persuasive. The "everything is new" song has a siren quality; but, will that song merely be a reprise of the 1972 McGovern campaign? In fact, aren't we really talking about a rewind of the classic factions in the Democratic Party? I hope not. But, my head tells me that is exactly what is happening.

    [ Parent ]
    From my own experience (none / 0) (#199)
    by Iris on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:49:13 PM EST
    a lot of the 'new voters' are unreliable and could just as easily have gone for Ron Paul, because they just do not follow politics or issues that much.  Many, as Bill pointed out, don't need a President for much other than to make a statement, because the Bush years have really not affected them too much; they just know Bush is bad.  It's just whatever seems cool and trendy.  If you read some of the former A-list blogs you'll find this attitude expressed concerning Obama, that they don't have to feel "uncool," like "losers" or ashamed to support Obama.  Excuse me while my head explodes...

    [ Parent ]
    Did (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Lahdee on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:32:25 PM EST
    the Senator save BO's voicemail?

    Only $1 million last night? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Palomino on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:32:27 PM EST
    Remember $10 million after PA? Time to pony up again, people (and I don't mean the Unity Pony).

    he isn't going to give a specific number (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:41:16 PM EST
    because last time he did, they had to spend days defending it.

    [ Parent ]
    HRC (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by jedimom on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:11:06 PM EST
    I gave another 300.44 to Hill last night
    will keep giving what I can to get her to Denver and the White House

    [ Parent ]
    Does that total include the kind 11 year old... (1.00 / 5) (#41)
    by kdog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:51:37 PM EST
    soul's 4 hundo?

    I wouldn't give these crooks a dime if you gave me a dollar.  Pay for the potential priveledge of 4 more years of Iraqi and Afghani occupation, 4 more years of drug war, 4 more years of rising prison populations?  You must be out your mind....  

    [ Parent ]

    And how many more (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by standingup on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    comments do you intend to make about a heartfelt donation of an 11 year old supporter?  I think we know where you stand on the issue after the dozen comments you made about it on the Open Thread.  If you have that much of a problem with it, I suggest you contact the Clintons directly instead of continuing to hijack the discussion here.

    [ Parent ]
    Contact the Clintons... (1.00 / 1) (#94)
    by kdog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:08:13 PM EST
    and what?  Get a form letter stating that if it wasn't for tyrannical drug laws Roger would be dead?

    Point taken though....I'll shut up about it. Till they need calling out on the next embarassment that is.

    [ Parent ]

    What if I gave you ten million? (none / 0) (#53)
    by Exeter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:55:46 PM EST
    Then, would you give them a dime?

    [ Parent ]
    No.... (1.00 / 1) (#86)
    by kdog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    money ain't everything, principles are priceless.

    Somebody tell Bill and Hill.

    [ Parent ]

    Please... (none / 0) (#119)
    by smott on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:16:23 PM EST
    ...issue a spew alert when you talk about principles and imply that Obama has them....I'm trying to work here...

    [ Parent ]
    When did I say... (none / 0) (#140)
    by kdog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:30:04 PM EST
    Obama has principles?  If you're voting on principles you'd have to vote third party.

    You Clinton-istas and Obama-bots need to remember that the whole country isn't split into your two little camps or the McCain camp.  Some of us, I'll admit very few, are holding our support for a candidate that is serious about ending foreign occupations, ending the drug war, getting the prison population reduced, granting Americans greater freedoms, etc, etc, etc.

    [ Parent ]

    Why bother here? (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by IzikLA on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:48:33 PM EST
    It sounds like you don't like anyone and you really don't like politics?  

    [ Parent ]
    this is what corrente (none / 0) (#200)
    by Iris on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:53:38 PM EST
    means about Obama's 'movement' being a disaffected third-party movement.  They will abandon the party when Obama doesn't make good on all these lofty hopes.

    [ Parent ]
    Why bother?..... (none / 0) (#208)
    by kdog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:09:22 PM EST
    Good question.

    "Here" used to be quite a different place...I guess I keep hoping we'll get back to discussing and debating issues instead of this pointless (in my view) election garbage.  All 3 of these clowns aren't gonna tackle any of the core problems I'm always ranting and raving about.  Pointless.  

    I love people, I want people to be free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness all over the world.  All people, even Clinton worshipers...even Vush worshipers (whats left of them:)

    But these means I got no love for the 3 stooges running for president, or the two-party duopoly government.

    I hate politics, yet am strangely interested and intrigued by politics.  Plus, as a freedom extremist, I like to keep an eye on things.

     

    [ Parent ]

    has anyone... (none / 0) (#159)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:46:20 PM EST
    reported this troll/chatterer to Jeralyn yet?  I don't want to clog her in-box with complaints...

    [ Parent ]
    Do you really... (none / 0) (#211)
    by kdog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:21:32 PM EST
    bother the very busy woman in charge here with emails to complain about comments?  Dear lord...

    BTW...Your ahead of me today, 24-19.  Chatter, chatter...

    [ Parent ]

    kdog, go bark somewhere else..... (none / 0) (#206)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:44:34 PM EST
    Really, what are you doing here? "sneaking a peep" of us Hillary weirdos?
    And, why is he allowed to continue blogging here?
    For the past couple of days he's been "surfing" all the TL blogs and putting his two wooden nickles into the discourse! Which he could, but not in a "bitter" way, ha! Your "Leader" (see how politically correct I am not mentioning the noun that would fit perfectly here? You can imagine what that word is can't you?)would be dissappointed with you; you're supposed to be a uniter!

    [ Parent ]
    I've been here reading and.... (none / 0) (#209)
    by kdog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:17:01 PM EST
    commenting on this once great blog since 2002.  You?

    If it was my house I'd ask all the kool-aid drinkers, Clinton and Obama flavor alike, to go back to whatever blog you helped ruin.  But it ain't my house.  Besides, I get a kick out of some of you, and learn from some of you newbies.

    For the umpteenth time...I'm of the opinion that Obama/Clinton is the same sh*t different wrapper.  Though Clinton worries me a little more because she is more politically competent.

    [ Parent ]

    7 fugures was what he said (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:33:17 PM EST
    Do not know the actual amount.

    [ Parent ]
    OT: Michigan (none / 0) (#131)
    by joejoejoe on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:22:20 PM EST
    Marcy Wheeler had an update on the status of the Michigan delegation that I thought might be of interest.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD, how about bringing up the point (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:33:30 PM EST
    made here last night:  Obama should receive no votes from MI, as he chose to remove his name from the ballot.  Candidate shouldn't be able to cherry pick states favorable to him or her or Clinton could have done the same in, for example NC.  

    And if Obama wasn't doing it for anything (none / 0) (#34)
    by Exeter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:47:17 PM EST
    other than pandering to Iowa, NH, NV, ans SC, why didn't he take his name off of Florida as well?

    [ Parent ]
    Florida laws (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by standingup on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:52:10 PM EST
    would not allow any of them to remove their names from the ballot.  The only way to be removed was to effectively state they were no longer a presidential primary candidate.  

    [ Parent ]
    Wrong!!!!!! (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:14:44 PM EST
    Had he requested to be kept from the Ballot at the same time he took his name off the ballot in MI his name would not have been included in the official candidate list submitted by the state's Democratic Council and therefore he wouldn't had to have signed no affidavit.  Check florida electoral law about the dates involved and the procedures.  This has been a fallacy perpetuated by many the reality is that he did not want his name off the ballot because he was raising funds all the time in Fl and constantly hinting that the delegates would be seated.,

    [ Parent ]
    He tried to take his name of the FL ballot (none / 0) (#43)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:52:12 PM EST
    State law prohibited this.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    OK, I was wr-wr-wr- wrong. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Exeter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    (Fonzi impersonation)

    Still, the spin that Clinton agreed to not count Michigan and Florida and is somehow going back on her word is false. She agreed to not campaign in either state, an unlike Obama, kept her promise. She never agreed to not count Michigan and Florida, and, in fact, at the time that Michigan and Florida were penalized, EVERYONE from Karl Levin to DNC rules committee members were saying that Michigan and Florida results WOULD be counted at the convention.  

    [ Parent ]

    it the law.  He had ample time to pull his name off the ballot.

    [ Parent ]
    Better answer (none / 0) (#51)
    by standingup on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:55:12 PM EST
    as provided by the Florida Democratic Party website:

    Can a presidential candidate remove their name from the ballot in Florida?

    Florida Democratic Party Chairwoman Thurman, Senator Geller and Representative Gelber submitted to Florida's Secretary of State the names of our Party's presidential candidates for placement on the January 29, 2008 Democratic Presidential Preference Primary ballot. State law allows candidates who wish to withdraw from the Florida primary to do so by filing an affidavit stating that he or she is not a candidate for President of the United States of America. In other words: to get off the ballot in Florida, a candidate has to swear that he or she isn't running for President.



    [ Parent ]
    What it does not say there is that (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:18:27 PM EST
    Obama Edwards etc. could had asked to have their names excluded from the list at the same time they took their name off the MI list.  The law requires no affidavit if your name is not included in the official list submitted by the Party.

    [ Parent ]
    You are correct (none / 0) (#170)
    by standingup on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:53:20 PM EST
    Thanks for the information.  I don't know what the Florida statutes state in regards to having an office set up and fundraising in the state but to me it doesn't really matter anyway.  The most important issue is doing the right thing by the voters of Florida.  

    [ Parent ]
    But would they then have been (none / 0) (#172)
    by independent voter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:55:13 PM EST
    eligible to be on the Presidential ballot if they are the nominee?

    [ Parent ]
    list of nominees submitted by the Party for the primaries.  The part of the affidavit is a procedure not written in the law that is administratively put in by the state dept of Florida so that once the paperwork is processed you don't have last moment changes.  Nothing in the Law prohibits participation anyway.  Is just that if you pulled your name after a certain date once the list of names was submitted to the State Dept you had to sign an affidavit justifying your withdrawal by stating that you would not run.  No one can force not to run,

    [ Parent ]
    It is difficult (none / 0) (#38)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:49:22 PM EST
    to respect Senator Clinton's call for MI and FL to be counted as is, and it is difficult to respect the sense of fairness, or intelligence, of anybody who makes that suggestion.

    How anybody can call for unity for the party while seeking to screw Obama so absurdly is preposterous, frankly.

    Obama removed his name from the MI ballot at a time when both candidates agreed that MI would not count. Sure, it was a strategic move. It was a smart move, because MI was little more than a name-recognition contest as no campaigning took place.

    If MI and FL are going to be seated for political reasons, it has to be in a way that achieves some semblance of fairness for both candidates. The rules can't be changed in the middle of the game to give 100% benefit to one candidate and totally screw the other.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]

    Of course, the fairest, most (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:53:10 PM EST
    intelligent solution would have been to support a complete re-vote in MI and FL.  Didn't happen either place.  I think the cherry-picking argument has some merit.  You don't.  However, I am not assessing your fairness or intelligence.  

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Fought Revote and First Vote (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by Athena on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:02:21 PM EST
    Most people don't realize how much Obama fought against a revote in MI and FL.  This needs to get more attention - particularly being done by the UNITY candidate.

    Rank hyprocrisy to celebrate unity on stage while  busy disenfranchising some states behind the scenes.

    For MI, it would have actually been a first vote for Obama - he never appeared on a ballot in that state.  So he was never willing to be tested by Michigan voters.

    Why didn't Obama want to subject himself to Michigan?  And what party nominates someone who was not willing to be on a ballot in all states?

    [ Parent ]

    In MI democrats (1.00 / 1) (#62)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:57:57 PM EST
    who voted in the republican race knowing that their vote would not count in the democratic primary would have been prohibited by state law from voting in a new vote. And the state was barred by a federal judge from releasing the list of those voters. So practically speaking it was impossible to conduct a lawful do-over vote in MI.

    I agree with you that this solution would have been the best. I have no idea what you mean by "cherry-picking argument."

    McCain
    [ Parent ]

    Cherrypicking: take you name off (5.00 / 6) (#77)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:03:06 PM EST
    the ballot in a state you do not anticipate winning; then claim that state doesn't count.  I'm not losing any sleep over the people DK convinced to cross-over and vote for Romney.

    [ Parent ]
    That's what you consider cherry picking? (none / 0) (#128)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:20:46 PM EST
    That's a stretch. The only reason Obama or Edwards or Biden could take their names off the ballot in MI is because the state wasn't going to count. You're conflating that with somebody taking his name off a ballot while knowing that the result in that state was going to count. That's apples and oranges, my friend.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    False (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Steve M on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:48:29 PM EST
    The judge explicitly said that her ruling meant nothing of the sort.

    MI could have complied with DNC rules by, for example, having voters sign an affidavit that they had not voted in the prior GOP primary.  There is no requirement that their names be cross-checked against a list.

    This is all very clear from the judge's ruling and the DNC rules.  I have read both in detail.

    [ Parent ]

    Candidates who take their names off (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:54:31 PM EST
    a ballot are fools.  Edwards was a fool for doing it too imo.

    [ Parent ]
    Tell that to Obama (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:55:39 PM EST
    whose surrogates at the DNC totally screwed Clinton over by changing the rules in midstream.

    Absolute nonsense.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama surrogates like (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:59:54 PM EST
    Harold Ickes? Please name the Obama surrogates whom you believe screwed Senator Clinton by changing the rules midstream. Please detail how they changed the rules midstream. If you are unable to do so, please retract your accusation.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    dawson (5.00 / 6) (#89)
    by jedimom on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    ralph dawson of NY Obama supporter and RBC member proposed stripping ALL the dels instead of the 50% the ROOLZ as written called for
    Brazile forcefully supported this strawman motion and argued til it passed...

    [ Parent ]
    Why do you call this a strawman motion? (none / 0) (#144)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:32:11 PM EST
    Can you explain what you mean by that?

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    Uhhh, no. (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by LHinSeattle on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:58:28 PM EST
    they agreed to no such thing as "it didn't count".  Only to not campaign there.

    This issue has been done to death by the facts over and over. Not to mention BHO blocked re-votes.

    Google is your friend.

    [ Parent ]

    And Harold Ickes supported this, correct? (none / 0) (#133)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:24:30 PM EST
    So it's not really accurate to suggest that this decision came entirely out of the Obama camp and nobody within the Clinton camp agreed or was complicit, would you not agree?

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    Hey Pal (5.00 / 6) (#66)
    by ww on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:59:36 PM EST
    I voted in MI. Obama's not getting screwed, I AM. Your view of respect is a convenient one.

    [ Parent ]
    You were not screwed by Obama (none / 0) (#74)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    You were screwed by your state party. Terry McAuliffe, when he was head of the DNC, told MI that they'd lose their delegates if they tried to move their vote up. Howard Dean's DNC did nothing more than Terry McAuliffe's DNC promised Michigan.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by standingup on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:11:14 PM EST
    McAuliffe threatened them with a loss of 50% of their delegates which is in line with the rules unlike the nuclear option pushed by Dean's DNC.

    [ Parent ]
    Here's a link (none / 0) (#135)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:27:07 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/4ccayy

    McAuliffe threatened not to seat the delegation in its entirety.

    That's a direct quote from his own book.

    Look at his 180 degree turnaround now. Can you trust a person who displays so little intellectual honesty?

    McCain
    [ Parent ]

    Perhaps you shouldn't trust Dkos (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by standingup on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:48:00 PM EST
    as a source and go to the primary source (the book) instead.  It is available on Amazon's Online Reader, page 324 and 325 (hat tip to Jake Tapper):

    "They told me they were going to hold the Michigan primary before New Hampshire's," McAuliffe writes, "which would have led to complete chaos since New Hampshire has a law stating that it must hold the first primary and the DNC had already voted on this issue and settled it.

    "'If you do that, I will take away 50 percent of your delegates,' I told him. (page 324)

    Next?

    [ Parent ]

    For sake of argument (none / 0) (#173)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:57:34 PM EST
    I'll assume your interpretation is correct. So how do you square what McAuliffe said to Levin with what he's saying now?

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    Look (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by standingup on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:14:54 PM EST
    arguing over McAuliffe acting as a DNC Chair then or as an advocate as a campaign manager for Clinton is pointless.  If you are interested in gotchas and want to score points that way, have at it but I am not interested.  I think it was a mistake for the DNC to go further than the 50% penalty in 2008.  

    [ Parent ]
    Look (none / 0) (#207)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:03:02 PM EST
    It's not about gotchas and your attempt to dismiss my point with your disparaging label won't work. McAuliffe agreed that Michigan would be penalized then. His rationale then was for the good of the party, obviously. Obviously there was something behind that rationale then. But it's disappeared now, and as I said at the outset, it's hard to respect somebody's intelligence of sense of fairness when they demand that Florida and Michigan be seated as is.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    Excuse me (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by standingup on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:18:55 PM EST
    but I did not label you or anyone else.  I commented to correct a factual error in your statement about McAuliffe's threat to punish Michigan in 2004.  I do not care what McAuliffe is saying today since he is not the final arbitrator and his acceptance of the Rules Committee's decision is not important either.  We can go back and forth about McAuliffe all day long but it is what the voters accept as fair that concerns me.  The difference between 2004 and 2008 is the choice to take away 100% of FL and MI delegates instead of the 50% that are specified in the rules and we could have avoided the entire issue.

    [ Parent ]
    Speaking of trust (none / 0) (#147)
    by tree on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:35:19 PM EST
    Obama was asked during the event about making sure Floridians have a role in the nomination, despite the DNC sanctions and the pledge. Scarritt said Obama responded that he'll "do what's right by Florida voters."

    So, can YOU trust Obama when he displays so little intellectual honesty?

    [ Parent ]

    uh,,, (none / 0) (#185)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:25:49 PM EST
    that was in 2004.  This is 2008.

    Check your calendar.  You'll see what I'm talking about.

    When Michigan and Florida moved up their primaries, the rules were 50% loss.  I don't know what the rules were in 2004, but if McCaulliffe was making threats that were inconsistent with the rules, then that's on him.  And the voters of Michigan should not be penalized for it.

    [ Parent ]

    others (none / 0) (#93)
    by jedimom on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:07:54 PM EST
    and the failure to strip the dels from SC NV??
    why???\what about fair application of the roolz?

    [ Parent ]
    Ridiculous argument (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by IzikLA on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:06:09 PM EST
    Sorry, but how is it "ridiculous to respect" wanting to count the people that went to the polls to vote?  

    I could reply to your other arguments, but they have been discussed her thoughtfully and logically over and over again.

    [ Parent ]

    What is ridiculous (1.00 / 1) (#107)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:12:39 PM EST
    is the unarticulated premise of Clinton's argument -- that the results in Michigan and Florida, after no campaigning and the widely-held understanding that the vote would not count for apportioning delegates, is a fair representation of what the vote would be after campaigning vigorously, knowing that the vote would count.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    So the caucus states (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Evie on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:31:07 PM EST
    where there was no "campaigning vigorously" by the Clinton campaign should not count either, RIGHT?

    Look, Obama chose to forfeit the MI contest by taking his name off the ballot. He could have competed, but he didn't.

    [ Parent ]

    You are mixing apples and oranges (none / 0) (#154)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:40:23 PM EST
    There are two classes of states: MI and FL are in one (states that were known ahead of time not to count in the delegate race. The other class includes all other states, regardless of whether they were primary states or caucus states.

    Hillary's campaign team failed her terribly by conceding the ground game on all of these caucus states. But there, she chose not to participate. In MI and FL, Obama was barred from campaigning. I'm sure you can see the vast difference.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]

    Obama chose not to participate in MI (none / 0) (#213)
    by Evie on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:14:48 PM EST
    by taking his name off the ballot.

    He could have left his name on the MI ballot to give his supporters a chance to vote for him, just as he did in FL. He chose not to accept MI votes.

    [ Parent ]

    The problem (none / 0) (#174)
    by IzikLA on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:58:21 PM EST
    Is that we quite obviously have a problem on our hands as Democrats.  We have an imperfect election but unfortunately it is the only thing we have to go on at this point.  Unless, that is, a revote was accepted (yes I know the arguments against this) OR we are simply willing to kiss MI & FL goodbye in November.  I'm not, and I hope the DNC is not.

    Look, there are good arguments on both sides of this discussion.  Our goal now should be to find the best solution possible.  This would be an easy fix if there was a runaway nominee with or without FL & MI but the reality of the situation is that there is not, however the Obama campaign and the media would like to spin it.

    As such, we all need to come together with the goal of winning in November and, in my personal opinion, this includes counting MI & FL.  I am happy to disagree however.

    [ Parent ]

    That's not true -- Hillary never agreed (5.00 / 4) (#91)
    by Exeter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:07:30 PM EST
    to not count Michigan and Florida. She agreed to not campaign in Michigan and Florida, and unlike Obama, kept that promise.  In fact, Obama removed his name off of Michigan ballot at the same time Edwards and Richardson did, as part of joint campaign ploy to pander to Iowa, NH, and NV and to make Clinton look bad-- a strategy that worked, in part.

    [ Parent ]
    She did not object to the DNC decision (none / 0) (#98)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:09:58 PM EST
    and one of her top surrogates, Harold Ickes, voted for it. Another surrogate, Terry McAuliffe, threatened precisely the same result when he was head of the DNC. If that doesn't conclusively imply agreement, I don't know what possibly could.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    Conclusively imply? (none / 0) (#187)
    by Chisoxy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:29:17 PM EST
    "Im 100% positive I can read your mind!"

    [ Parent ]
    Obama ran ads in Florida, noone else did (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by catfish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:10:46 PM EST
    Obama ran ads in Florida, they continued to run even after South Carolina primary:
    "Obama says he did not campaign in MI or FLA, but he failed to say a week before the SC primary he took out air time for a campaign ad on the CNN channel that aired in millions of homes, including FLA. This ad also ran after SC before the FLA primary. -"

    He also said in September, before the FL election, he'd seat the delegates:

    By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

    Published: September 30, 2007

    TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

    Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.">



    [ Parent ]
    Tampa Tribune September 2007 (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by tree on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:26:34 PM EST
    Obama was asked during the event about making sure Floridians have a role in the nomination, despite the DNC sanctions and the pledge. Scarritt said Obama responded that he'll "do what's right by Florida voters."

    LINK

    [ Parent ]

    They also say (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:35:24 PM EST
    Hillary is now ahead in the popular vote (counting Florida and Michigan)

    Their real message is she can better beat McCain.

    She is better able to win the swing states

    She is not angling for vice presidency

    I'm listening on the call as well (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:37:01 PM EST
    and just adding to BTD's coverage

    [ Parent ]
    Ask them about 19 states.... (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Exeter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:49:15 PM EST
    Michigan + Florida = population of 19 smaller states. To what logical extreme would the DNC be willing to go to enforce rules. How many states would they shut out... 19? 39? 49?

    [ Parent ]
    I like this argument (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by IzikLA on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:30:20 PM EST
    I hope we start hearing more of it!

    [ Parent ]
    ask them if Obama called Clinton (none / 0) (#79)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:04:37 PM EST
    to congratulate her last night.  I heard he text mssg'd???

    [ Parent ]
    Nah he is too cool (none / 0) (#95)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:08:17 PM EST
    He just Twittered that he was in a congratulatory mood!

    [ Parent ]
    It may be true (none / 0) (#92)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:07:52 PM EST
    that Hillary would beat McCain more convincingly. However, just as we as lawyers are trained to respect a jury's decision, we as citizens must also respect the nomination process we've established.

    That is not to say that superdelegates wouldn't be perfectly within their rights to choose Hillary because of perceived superior electability. However, such a decision invites multifaceted peril for the party and for down-ticket races, many of which these very superdelegates will be running.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]

    A Good Lawyer (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by BDB on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:12:26 PM EST
    Goes to a jury with his best argument, not his weakest.  That's because jurors, like Super Delegates, are not bound to vote any particular way.

    [ Parent ]
    And just as lawyers never ever appeal... (none / 0) (#169)
    by Evie on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:53:20 PM EST
    a jury decision, citizens should never ever protest "established" processes that lead to injustice or voter disenfranchisement, right?

    I also don't see how Obama helps downticket when so far, downticket Dem candidates have felt the need to publicly distance themselves from him.

    [ Parent ]

    is this snark? respect what the dnc (none / 0) (#171)
    by hellothere on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:54:31 PM EST
    and dean/brazile have done? when hades freezes over i will. look for a major walkout of the democratic party core voters. did not wv teach obama supporters anything? sigh!

    [ Parent ]
    MI & FL will be seated per Dean (none / 0) (#108)
    by LHinSeattle on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:12:39 PM EST
    in his interview with SquareState, CO blog picked to cover the convention (one from ea state was picked).

    SquareState: Yes. Now... will the Michigan and Florida bloggers also be sitting with their delegations?

    Governor Dean: Yes.

    Doesn't say anything about in relation to voting %s tho...

    [ Parent ]

    WV: Necessary but not sufficient (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by barryluda on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:38:52 PM EST
    This race will obviously come down to the Super Delegates.  Had Clinton not won big then, as Wolfson said, it would be all over.  But she won, and won not just big but huge, so it's not over.

    The key now is for the Super Delegates to both stop trending toward Obama and for Clinton to start to get at least a few Obama Super Delegates to make the switch to her.  That seems to me very unlikely to happen, but it's possible.

    If it does happen, it'll start with one or two.  I don't know enough about the Supers to know which ones might be inclined to switch from Obama to Clinton.  If that doesn't happen now or soon, I can't imagine any more events in Clinton's control that will make it happen.

    Elected officials from states Hillary won (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by MarkL on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:40:28 PM EST
    are the targets.


    [ Parent ]
    I think it was the worst loss ever (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Exeter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:41:37 PM EST
    by a front runner this late in the primary season.

    [ Parent ]
    The Superdels want to abolish (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:42:15 PM EST
    their electorate and find a new one in Idaho or South Dakota.

    it's all Daschle's fault.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe national polling, including (none / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:40:54 PM EST
    states that Obama previously won.

    [ Parent ]