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Obama on Foreign Policy Experience

Barack Obama explained to a fundraising crowd in California this week why his VP nominee would not need extensive foreign policy experience. It's because he has it. Was he joking? No.

Not only that, here's how he described and differentiated his experience from Hillary's to conclude he's more experienced than Hillary or McCain:

"It's ironic because this is supposedly the place where experience is most needed to be Commander-in-Chief. Experience in Washington is not knowledge of the world. This I know. When Senator Clinton brags 'I've met leaders from eighty countries'--I know what those trips are like! I've been on them. You go from the airport to the embassy. There's a group of children who do native dance. You meet with the CIA station chief and the embassy and they give you a briefing. You go take a tour of a plant that [with] the assistance of USAID has started something. And then--you go."

"You do that in eighty countries--you don't know those eighty countries. So when I speak about having lived in Indonesia for four years, having family that is impoverished in small villages in Africa--knowing the leaders is not important--what I know is the people. . . ."

"I traveled to Pakistan when I was in college--I knew what Sunni and Shia was [sic] before I joined the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. . . ."

[More...]

Obama says he's passed the good judgment test while Hillary and McCain have not." The journalist-author of the linked article notes:

Secondly, even though I've researched and written on Hillary Clinton's trips abroad and consequently been critical of her claims, my estimation of her foreign travels is that they were sometimes quite a bit more than a dance, a briefing and a tour. What Barack Obama's remarks last night in San Francisco reveal, however, is his self-confidence--to the point of cockiness--right now. This is exactly the same demeanor on display last week in Pennsylvania.

Cockiness is an understatement. He lived in Indonesia from the ages of 6 to 10. He didn't visit Africa until he was an adult -- his first trip was in his late 20's, his second 14 years after that.

Does he really believe that being a child in a foreign country and having poor relatives in Africa makes one prepared to be Commander in Chief? Can he really think it compares to Hillary's years of service on the Armed Services Committee? If this is an indication of his "good judgment" I can't wait to see what his poor or mistaken judgment is like.

More on Obama's foreign policy decisions, from the Chicago Tribune:

After being sworn in as U.S. Senator, it took him 11 months to make a major speech on Iraq.

When did he first introduce legislation setting a timetable for troop withdrawal from Iraq? "In January 2007,shortly after announcing his presidential exploratory committee."

Obama the candidate for U.S. Senate spoke out forcefully against the Iraq war. For most of his tenure in Washington, though, Obama the U.S. senator has not been a moving force on Iraq.

He left it to others to lead public opinion. Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) and Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.) emerged as the strongest voices against the war. Those critics all spoke out before Obama gave his first major policy speech on the war -- 11 months after he took office.

Several advisers said that during that time Obama wrestled with how to proceed, concerned about the worsening news from Iraq and convinced the public's mood was turning against the war more rapidly than most members of Congress appreciated.

In keeping with the pattern of his political career, he moved cautiously. During the summer of 2005 he considered proposing a plan to partition Iraq. But he backed off the idea as advisers raised two key concerns: that the proposal was fraught with complexities and that he could be seen as overstepping his expertise.

Ultimately Obama delivered a more modest speech in November 2005, five days after Murtha's call for a troop withdrawal. In that address, he called for reductions in U.S. troop strength but not a timetable for withdrawal.

In a Senate debate the following June, Obama voted against an amendment proposed by Feingold and former presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) to set such a timetable.

Only after Obama announced his presidential exploratory committee did he introduce legislation this January that sets a date for withdrawal of U.S. combat troops. By then the high-profile, bipartisan Iraq Study Group also had endorsed a deadline for troops to leave.

Update: Comments at 200, thread now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    You know, (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:50:08 PM EST
    there simply are no words to describe his chutzpah.  Even I do not have the words, and that is a first!

    VP choice (5.00 / 7) (#29)
    by CHDmom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:14:35 PM EST
    Here is my favorite part of the quote "Barack Obama took a question on what he's looking for in a running mate. "I would like somebody who knows about a bunch of stuff that I'm not as expert on," he said"

    [ Parent ]
    Sounds like Bush! (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:33:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Really, (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by ghost2 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:26:27 PM EST
    and it scares me more and more every day.  

    [ Parent ]
    Did he really say that? (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:48:12 PM EST
    Sigh.

    [ Parent ]
    Austan Goolsbee is going to be his running mate (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by ajain on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:26:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I don't get why this is so bad (none / 0) (#99)
    by kayla on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:18:32 PM EST
    The guy is obviously smart.  He was president of the Harvard Law Review for goodness sake.  I have this little theory about why Hillary comes off as so extremely wonkish and why Barack comes across as a simpleton sometimes.

    I think it's the way they've both adjusted socially over the years in order to make it into the big leagues.  Hillary's a woman and probably experienced some sexism and to avoid the Blond Bimbo perception she makes sure she's a walking power-point.  Sometimes I feel like she's overcompensating.  Not that that's a bad thing in a presidential election.  I certainly appreciate it and am impressed by it, but if the American people voted based on debate performances, she would be the nominee by now.

    Barack's black and has probably spent much of his life trying to rid himself of the angry/uppity black guy stereotype so he tries to come off as very down to earth and amicable.  In fact, I read an article that when he was younger he intimidated the hell out of prospective voters with his hyper-literacy, and learned to calm it down in order to connect to voters.

    I've also heard some pundits say that Hillary is very warm and laid back in private, and Barack can be very cerebral in private.

    Until Barack completely butchers a prepared speech, I'm not willing to compare him to Bush.

    [ Parent ]

    disagree (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:34:55 PM EST
    I have to say I disagree with your last line.  A prepared speech is nice and all, but it usually has been written by others and always vetted by a cast of thousands.

    You can better measure someone's abilities and character by their off-the-cuff moments.  And this moment was very revealing.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, I agree with you when it comes to (5.00 / 0) (#187)
    by kayla on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:57:06 PM EST
    prepared speeches versus off the cuff remarks.  I think my last line was misunderstood, or maybe I just wasn't clear.  I meant Bush screws up even speeches that have been written down for him.  Anyway, I still don't see how this comment is all that revealing.  The use of a one syllable word like "stuff" isn't testimony to how intelligent you are or aren't.  Sure, Hillary's much better with off the cuff comments, but that doesn't mean Barack is at George Bush's level of complete incoherence.  Bush is so... unintelligent that sometimes no one even knows what he's talking about.  I have yet to hear Barack make a statement that was nonsensical or utterly stupid.  He has never made a statement as of yet that should be ridiculed because of the sheer idiocy of it.

    I don't think Barack is as impressive as he wants to be perceived, but I just disagree that this comment is an example of how "not very smart" he is.

    [ Parent ]

    odd but when Bush was running for (none / 0) (#191)
    by RalphB on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:06:05 PM EST
    Governor, he could actually make a pretty decent speech.  no errors in pronunciation.  something either went wrong with the guy, or he had practiced for decades before his first campaign.   :-)


    [ Parent ]
    I definitely agree with you on this. (none / 0) (#211)
    by eleanora on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:47:50 PM EST
    IMO, he's got a first class intellect and a much better grasp on history than Bush ever thought of. From his books and speeches, Senator Obama obviously loves examining topics in depth, applying old theories in new ways, and  acknowledging alternate worldviews while inching people closer together for consensus.

    To me, his hesitations and stutter talking in debates are a result of his trying to think each question through from the questioner's perspective and tailoring his response accordingly. I can see where that would be massively useful in consensus-building situations, but is perhaps less appropriate for debates. Not my candidate, but I don't find him lacking intellectually at all.

    [ Parent ]

    He's not very smart (4.55 / 9) (#111)
    by seattlegonz on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:37:52 PM EST
    He was editor of the law review and he didn't publish a single article. After his tenure they had to make a rule that you couldn't be editor without publishing.

    He's a chameleon. He mimics really smart people so that it appears as though he himself is smart. I'm not saying he's dumb...he's just not brilliant by any means. Hillary is the one who is smart, smart, smart. Remember how nice it was to have a president Bill Clinton stand before the cameras and we didn't have to worry and fret about what he'd say? Well, Hillary is way smarter than Bill. She will be the most awesome president...even her detractors now, will be stunned.

    [ Parent ]

    How generous! (4.42 / 7) (#109)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:35:56 PM EST
    In fact, I read an article that when he was younger he intimidated the hell out of prospective voters with his hyper-literacy, and learned to calm it down in order to connect to voters.

    He hides  his intelligence from us so that we are not intimidated!

    The Law Review position was an elected post.  Interesting dynamics going on vis-a-vis race relations going into that particular election; the first black professor to achieve tenure had resigned to protest the lack of fellow blacks on the faculty and over fifty students had filled the dean's office demanding more equality on campus.

    Right place, right time.

    [ Parent ]

    He made it on to the Harvard Law Review (5.00 / 0) (#149)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:32:45 PM EST
    in the first place....

    The Editor-in-Chief position, or President in the case of Harvard, usually goes to someone perceived as a leader, not the biggest egghead.....

    Nevertheless, Lawrence Tribe has said Obama is one of the two best students he has ever had....

    [ Parent ]

    And to this... (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Alec82 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:36:42 PM EST
    ...we shall almost certainly hear cries about Professor Tribe's misogyny, reverse racism, homophobia and (laughably) legal inexperience.  Because, after all, Senator Obama cannot be a wonk....that role is reserved for only one candidate in this metanarrative.

    [ Parent ]
    So.... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Alec82 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:54:28 PM EST
    ...he was on law review because he is black, he won his senate seat because he is black, he has no achievements whatsoever just had everything handed to him because he is black, he has no talent he is just black, and he is winning the primary because (you guessed it) he is black.

     Ugh.  The subtle race "consciousness" that comes up whenever we're talking about Senator Obama's experience and intelligence is truly terrifying, particularly from "progressives" who see him, apparently, as a beneficiary of affirmative action with no qualifications of his own(right place, right time is code, me thinks).  

     

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah exactly (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by kayla on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:25:00 PM EST
    This is just as bad as the Obama camp trying to discredit Hillary's FP experience by saying she was just having tea parties or because she wasn't signing treaties.

    The guy is very smart.  I've yet to find anything that disputes that.  He's not as knowledgable as Hillary or as eloquent without preparation, but that doesn't spell 'not smart' to me.  Not at all.  

    Ineloquent and inexperienced? I'd agree with that.

    [ Parent ]

    You mean, like grammar? (none / 0) (#163)
    by Susie from Philly on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:53:11 PM EST
    How about the audacity of proper sentence construction?

    [ Parent ]
    And I wondered why (5.00 / 6) (#118)
    by BernieO on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:52:02 PM EST
    he didn't have any meetings of the foreign relations subcommittee on Europe/NATO that he chairs. He already knew everything!
    Just what we need. Another guy who is a legend in his own mind.

    [ Parent ]
    this guy I fear will be a total disgrace if (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:50:11 PM EST
    he wins the presidency...scares me to death...he seems just so wishy-washy....

    Found some more words (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:05:15 PM EST
    (surprise!):  This speech was disgraceful.  Sounds like a teenager wrote it; certainly not an adult.  I am beginning to think that voting for a dem just because he is a dem would be a real bad move.  It may be time to vote for qualifications, not party. (That's an if, of course.

    [ Parent ]
    I Swear... (5.00 / 8) (#38)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:19:43 PM EST
    He just reminds me SO much of Bush in 2000...And the MSM is treating him the same way they did Bush.  

    Can you just IMAGINE the hew and cry if HILLARY had said that??  Ohmygosh - the talking heads would be laughing themselves silly!!!

    [ Parent ]

    My take (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:50:21 PM EST
     Once again this is the arrogance of sexism.  What he is saying is that a male child's experience is more valued as an adult woman's experience.  I frankly find it extremely offensive.

     All the ceremonial aspects are part of foreign relations experience.  The nation's hosting the President and his wife are keen on showing hospitality and friendship to the President and the first Lady.

    Obama as Performance Artist (5.00 / 12) (#7)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:56:51 PM EST
    It bears repeating Steinem's point that no female with as little to offer as Obama would get near a Presidential race in either party.

    A male candidate can attempt to recreate the great men of the past - MLK, JFK, etc. - and many will fall for it.  Theater alone will suffice, as we see with Obama as performance artist.  A woman candidate has no comparable legacy to draw on - and her actual record, to paraphrase feminist slogans, has to be twice as long to be considered half as good.

    [ Parent ]

    Side by side videos (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:59:02 PM EST
    I would like to find side by side videos of todays hearings.  Hillary just knew her military stuff, did not campaign, did her role as Senator.  The boyz were campaigning.  

    [ Parent ]
    That's exactly how (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:14:56 PM EST
    it struck me!  I didn't listen to McCain closely because he's so predictable.  But I did listen to Hillary and Barack, and I was amazed to hear him giving what amounted to a campaign speech.  He did ask a reasonably good rhetorical question at the end, but geez.  I thought Hillary was succinct, no grandstanding, no campaign speech, just to the point.

    Norah O'Donnell on MNBC said her impact in the room was substantial, though it was less so through the television.

    [ Parent ]

    Please don't insult performance artists. (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ahazydelirium on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:28:11 PM EST
    They usually have more substance than Obama does.

    [ Parent ]
    Big tips... (none / 0) (#208)
    by lansing quaker on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:25:32 PM EST
    For both you, Athena, and Stellaaa!  I may have missed an A or two there. ;)

    Right on the mark.  Great comments.

    [ Parent ]

    Had to delurk just to second this. (none / 0) (#165)
    by TA on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:55:06 PM EST
    It really IS offensive and sexist, isn't it?  

    I've read a lot about this, and you're the first one I've seen to point that out.  Thank you.

    [ Parent ]

    Wait, sexist or not sexist enough? (none / 0) (#177)
    by marcellus on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:24:20 PM EST
    The author at Huffington Post has the exact opposite accusation, that Obama is not sexist enough...  apparently because he's considering VP candidates without gender bias.

    Note Obama's delicate sentence constructions. Never a gender pronoun--a he or a she--anywhere.

    I'm not sure which one people believe?  (Probably neither, just random internet chatter, and I shouldn't let my head explode.)

    The criticism of Hillary Clinton's foreign policy experience starts from her own accounts in her book.  I've read Living History, and foreign policy and understanding of cultures is definitely not a strong suit.  In addition she has a fundamental misunderstanding of poverty, in which she blames poor people for being there because they don't work hard enough.  She says that her father taught her this, she rebelled against it at the time, and in my opinion, her actions now live up to it.  It doesn't matter if she had a ghostwriter, by putting her name on the book, she's signing on that these are her attitudes.  

    As first lady, she didn't have security clearance , and most claims of exaggerations are from (potentially disgruntled?) former staff members such as Susan Rice and George Stephanopoulos.  It's damning him with faint praise...but George S. is the TV talking head that I trust the most, so it's telling to me when he says things like there are not that many 3 am calls in the White House.  

    After Hillary had claimed the mantle of crossing the commander-in-chief threshold, she was asked to name the reasons.  She chose N.Ireland (a claim supported by one side and disputed by the other), Bosnia (a fabricated story in which she demonstrated her complete arrogance--I took her stuff and left), and China (a speech, an accomplishment I consider impressive, but Hillary herself denigrates as "just words")

    [ Parent ]

    Almost Satire (5.00 / 10) (#4)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:52:40 PM EST
    Obama's foreign cred is just not credible.  Living overseas as a child and touring through Pakistan as a college student is not at all comparable with Clinton's record.  It's almost satire.

    That doesn't mean it won't dazzle the dazzled, of course.

    It makes me wonder even more why he blew off his comittee chairmanship when his foreign policy resume is so thin.  But that's the arrogance - actual work not required.

    The Speech Is Old (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:16:35 PM EST
    Folks - Obama's most significant claim regarding his cred on the Iraq war is his 2002 speech.

    Don't you think that it would be more impressive if he had worked like hell to end the war - and could point to all manner of initiatives in the Senate to get that done?  Uh, I guess the word I'm looking for is - action.

    He can't.  It's a little pathetic that a 6-year old speech is held up as the most important thing he's done - when he's had 3 years in the G.D. Senate!

    Why did he seem to matter more when he wasn't a Senator?   Hmmm, interesting.  A real leadership vacuum emerges here.

    [ Parent ]

    Testified? (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:55:09 PM EST
    No, asked questions.  

    Comments and Questions (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by 1jane on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:59:21 PM EST
    may have been a better lede.

    [ Parent ]
    PAALEEEEASE! (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by countme on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:57:18 PM EST
    This is getting to be to much. Isn't there anyone out there in the MSM that will even poke a little fun at his comments. I mean really. Even taffy breaks when stretched to far.

    SNL, Get Busy (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:02:08 PM EST
    Seeing the world through the eyes of a child - passed off as gravitas - well, that's just an SNL skit waiting to happen.

    Calling Tina Fey.........

    [ Parent ]

    In my experience (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Lahdee on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:59:05 PM EST
    "the good judgment test" constitutes more than just one test. He keeps this up and the corporate media will eat him alive.

    Yes such as (4.80 / 5) (#122)
    by BernieO on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:56:16 PM EST
    having the good judgment not to ask a man under federal investigation for corruption to help you buy a mansion you cannot afford. Or having the judgment not to try to buy a house you cannot afford. Or having the good judgment not to stay in a church with a minister who is a conspiracy theorist and a bigot.

    [ Parent ]
    Next thing he'll be saying that (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by myiq2xu on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    Hillary was just the White House "hostess."

    Obama really overstepped this time.

    He's implied (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by Just another person on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:19:52 PM EST
    as much with his "tea-parties with ambassadors" comment.

    [ Parent ]
    And I'm pretty sure he hasn't been on (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by allimom99 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:44:57 PM EST
    "those trips." He's a first-term senator who was too busy running for president to actually do the committee job he was given.

    [ Parent ]
    Bosnia vs. Indonesia (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:02:01 PM EST
    Now, lets get some things figured out.  She was in Bosnia.  It was a war zone.  He claims his experience that as a child he lived in Indonesia.  Is that a lie? Exaggeration?  Mispeak?  or just plain idiocy?

    one wonders... (5.00 / 3) (#168)
    by Nasarius on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:03:48 PM EST
    Why none of his advisers have smacked him down on this. It's hardly the first time he's touted his "experience" of going to grade school in Indonesia.

    It's great to be well-traveled and live in other cultures. It absolutely broadens your perspective on the world. But it says absolutely nothing about your ability to be a world leader. As much as I like them, I don't think I'd want, say, Rick Steves or Arthur Frommer in the White House.

    And it's even more astounding that he does this while downplaying Hillary's experience of actually meeting foreign leaders and talking policy. He just won't stop handing ammunition to the McCain campaign.

    [ Parent ]

    Too close to sippin' tea (5.00 / 6) (#16)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:02:10 PM EST
    I was reading through old news reports of some of her trips. If that's what he thinks she's doing on all of them, he certainly needs a clue.

    And how nice of him to brush of children's dances and think that knowing the leaders is unimportant . . .

    I would LOVE to see all those remarks he said backed up. Especially "what I know is the people" Back that one up buddy. Show us your diverse knowledge on people.

    I alternate between laughing and getting pissed when I read his remarks . . .

    I hung out with real people in Prague (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:02:49 PM EST
    Maybe Obama will consider me for a Cabinet position.

    What he said is a joke.

    I'm not supposed to call him a joke.  I won't.

    But what he said is a joke, a joke that he would be called on if he wasn't...........

    ..

    running against a Clinton.

    No.  THe man is not a joke.  BUt I suspect he might be a little incompetent.  The argument that he could be a worse president than McCain, the only reason against making it is that it's considered verboten to do so.

    So, I can assume (none / 0) (#166)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:56:03 PM EST
    you will vote for McCain over Obama?  You have convinced me that you really do not like Obama....I am persuaded of that....Heh, it's a free country...

    Really, there is only little more than six weeks before Puerto Rico and when this will be over.....

    [ Parent ]

    Does he think he's running (5.00 / 8) (#20)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:05:38 PM EST
    for high school student body president? rather than president of the US? This is just a joke, and goes to my first reason for not voting for him, which is:

    He will be incompetent, look foolish, and ensure Republican rule for at least another 12 years after his first and only term.

    Obama's supporters don't care (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by TheRefugee on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:29:49 PM EST
    They aren't laying groundwork for Obama victory in the GE they are laying groundwork for Obama's loss in the GE to be Hillary's fault for staying in the race and "scorching the earth."

    Hillary has a very good reason to stay in the race...Either she wins the nom and wins the GE or Obama wins the nom and loses the GE and Hillary will be back in four years saying, "now can we elect the best candidate instead of the palatable candidate?"

    But if Obama wins I agree with you, one term and done and poisons the well for future Dems.

    [ Parent ]

    You say Hillary should (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:35:34 PM EST
    stay in because she can better prepare herself for 2012 that way--because Obama will lose if he is the nominee....

    And yet you imply it is wrong for Obama supporters to worry about Hillary damaging Obama in the GE.

    It is Hillary in 2008 or 2012.....Yes, that does concern me.

    [ Parent ]

    No one is damaging Obama (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by waldenpond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:58:08 PM EST
    He has to make it on his own.  No one is doing anything to him.  By staying in, she is demonstrating she is willing to fight for something until the end, that she can take whatever is thrown at her and come back in 2012.

    Good strategy.  That's all.  Nothing whatsoever to do with Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    2012? (none / 0) (#145)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:24:46 PM EST
    It does sound as if Hillary has a 2012 strategy....

    [ Parent ]
    No, it sounds like waldenpond has (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by lookoverthere on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:35:27 PM EST
    a 2012 strategy.

    If you have evidence of Sen. Clinton making a run in 2012, show it please.

    [ Parent ]

    psssst.... (none / 0) (#206)
    by waldenpond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:01:15 PM EST
    I was responding to your mention of 2012 btw.  I'm not privy to the Clinton campaign strategy.

    [ Parent ]
    How is her staying (none / 0) (#120)
    by Just another person on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:53:20 PM EST
    in damaging Obama in the GE? I think I missed a logical connection somewhere...

    [ Parent ]
    The opportunity cost of not (none / 0) (#144)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:23:57 PM EST
    being able to focus on McCain now when McCain has no money....

    And, any Hillary attacks redound to McCain's benefit.

    [ Parent ]

    What is keeping him (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by oldpro on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:46:09 PM EST
    from focusing on McCain now?

    Not a damn thing.

    It can't be the money!

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, that would be HIS choice, (none / 0) (#199)
    by allimom99 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:47:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And he's inevitable (none / 0) (#202)
    by badger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:57:06 PM EST
    so there's really no reason for him to have to campaign against Clinton any longer.

    [ Parent ]
    That's assuming (none / 0) (#178)
    by Just another person on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:26:05 PM EST
    that Obama is the chosen one. It may be likely at this point, but it's not a definite.

    [ Parent ]
    Fact Sheet: Sen. Obama's Record on Iraq (5.00 / 14) (#21)
    by TalkRight on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:05:38 PM EST
    Fact Sheet: Sen. Obama's Record on Iraq

    3/17/2008 10:01:52 AM
    Obama on Iraq: Prior To Joining U.S. Senate

    While running for senate in 2003, Sen. Obama acknowledged that he took his anti-war speech off his campaign website, calling it 'dated.' Specifically, State Senator Obama maintains that an October 2002 anti-war speech was removed from his campaign web site because "the speech was dated once the formal phase of the war was over, and my staff's desire to continually provide fresh news clips." [Black Commentator, 6/19/03]

    Obama in July 2004: 'There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position [on Iraq] at this stage.' In a meeting with Chicago Tribune reporters at the Democratic National Convention, Obama said, "On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago. [...] There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage. The difference, in my mind, is who's in a position to execute." [Chicago Tribune, 07/27/04]

    Obama on 2002 Iraq resolution vote: 'What would I have done? I don't know:' "When asked about Senators Kerry and Edwards' votes on the Iraq war, Obama said, "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports," Mr. Obama said. "What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made." [New York Times, 07/26/04]

    In September 2004, Obama says he ' would be willing to send more soldiers to Iraq.' [AP, 9/19/04]
    Obama on Iraq: U.S. Senate Record

    11 months after joining Senate, Sen. Obama delivers first speech devoted to Iraq, says 'US forces are sill part of the solution.' "[T]he level of his criticism lowered when he arrived in Washington. In his first year in the Senate, he delivered one speech on Iraq, calling for a phased withdrawal by the end of 2006. But last November, Mr. Obama revised that time frame, saying the drawdown should begin in four to six months." Obama's Senate web site lists his address to the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations on November 22, 2005, 11 months after entering the U.S. Senate. Obama said, "I believe that U.S. forces are still a part of the solution in Iraq." [New York Times, 2/12/07; obama.senate.gov]

    18 months after joining Senate, Sen. Obama gives first floor statement devoted to Iraq, opposes timeline for withdrawal. "...But having visited Iraq, I am also acutely aware that a precipitous withdrawal of our troops, driven by congressional edict rather than the realities on the ground, will not undo the mistakes made by this administration. It could compound them." [obama.senate.gov]

    Upon arriving in the Senate, Sen. Obama supported every funding bill for Iraq, some $300 billion....until he started running for President. [2005 Vote # 117, HR1268, 5/10/05; 2005 Vote # 326, S1042, 11/15/05; 2006 Vote # 112, HR4939, 5/4/06; 2006 Vote # 239; 2006 Vote # 186, S2766, 6/22/06; HR5631, 9/7/06]

    As a Senate candidate in November 2003, Sen. Obama said he would have 'unequivocally' voted against war funding because it was the only way to oppose Bush on Iraq. "Just this week, when I was asked, would I have voted for the $87 billion dollars, I said 'no.' I said no unequivocally because, at a certain point, we have to say no to George Bush. If we keep on getting steamrolled, we are not going to stand a chance." [Obama remarks, New Trier Democratic Organization forum, 11/16/03; Video]

    Since Obama entered the U.S. Senate, his record on Iraq is identical to Hillary's, with one exception. ABC News reported that, "In fact, Obama's Senate voting record on Iraq is nearly identical to Clinton's.  Over the two years Obama has been in the Senate, the only Iraq-related vote on which they differed was the confirmation earlier this year of General George Casey to be Chief of Staff of the Army, which Obama voted for and Clinton voted against." [ABC, 5/17/07; senate.gov; see chart]

    Top Obama advisor says, as president, Sen. Obama will 'not rely upon some plan that he's crafted as a presidential candidate or as a US senator.' Samantha Powers, who has subsequently resigned her position, also described Sen. Obama's Iraq plan as a "best case scenario." [BBC, 3/6/07]


    This was the fairy tale (5.00 / 7) (#96)
    by abfabdem on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:16:03 PM EST
    Bill Clinton was referring to that kicked off the cries of racism.  Thanks for putting this timeline together.  What an opportunist this guy is.

    [ Parent ]
    That "opportunist" (none / 0) (#113)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:38:41 PM EST
    will likely be on the ticket as the nominee for President or VP....

    The Obama bashing is one reason that the superdelegates should decide this race ASAP.  Hillary has said the superdelegates can legitmately do whatever they want.  So, if they call this race tomorrow, then that would be legitimate...

    [ Parent ]

    And if they did that (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:42:33 PM EST
    it would also be legitimate when Obama got a shellacking in the fall because half the Democratic Party didn't vote for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Sunk costs (none / 0) (#161)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:49:31 PM EST
    It seems the idea is that the superdelegates should allow this race to go on in order to not offend Hillary supporters.....Fine...But:

    There is not enough time for re-votes in Florida or Michigan.  (There is little more than 6 weeks before the first week in June when the race will be over.)  That issue is done regardless of the merits....That issue is also a make or break issue for many Hillary supporters here....

    Hillary supporters here also have already stated that such a nomination will not be legitimate.....Many (not all and with notable exceptions) here have said they will not ever vote for Obama.  I believe them.

    Better to get on with it.....I have become convinced that any effort to persuade the Hillary supporters by dragging this race out is futile....They will not be persuaded or mollifed and will just use the additional time to bash Obama....

    I became completely convinced of this given the rude reception Meteor Blades has received here....It is simply time to close it down....and move on....Many here are simply not persuadable....Their votes appear lost to Obama anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    "dragging the race out" (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:57:42 PM EST
    Rules are rules.  The primary dates were set up, why do you call the brilliant work of the DNC rules committee and the scheduling of the primaries:  "dragging out".  These are the rules.  Rules are rules.  Rules are rules.  

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, they are (none / 0) (#190)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:04:55 PM EST
    Of course, the primaries will be held....

    It would be better imo that they become less significant, or not significant at all, with superdelegates having declared for Obama in advance.....

    [ Parent ]

    That is not what the rules say....!!! (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:23:40 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    minds gone bad (none / 0) (#207)
    by Arcadianwind on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:20:19 PM EST
    "It would be better imo that they become less significant, or not significant at all" --MKS

    Rove/bush couldn't have said it any better! Actual voters should become less significant, or not significant at all.

    Does this concept (in general) give anyone a sense of foreboding?

    What has happened to our party?

    [ Parent ]

    MKS (none / 0) (#192)
    by lookoverthere on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:11:48 PM EST
    have become convinced that any effort to persuade the Hillary supporters by dragging this race out is futile....They will not be persuaded or mollifed and will just use the additional time to bash Obama....

    Sen. Obama has not won the nomination. And if he can't stand the heat, then he should withdraw.

    So let's let the contest will continue. It will not hurt Sen. Obama. Quite the contrary---I think it makes him a better candidate. Besides, if there's going to be a meltdown by either potential nominee, I'd rather it be now and not in October. Let's see the ugly now because we're going to see it then---forewarned is fore-527ed, in my book.

    You can say all you want about Sen. Obama not being able to focus on Sen. McCain, but nothing is stopping him from doing so. That would be a smart thing for him to do---use these opportunties out on the stump to repackage himself and his message for the general election. He's got plenty of money.

    And if you really think Sen. Clinton's supporters are of no value to your candidate, I'd suggest otherwise. How Sen. Obama handles himself in the remaining contests may earn him the support of many Clinton supporters.

    BTD has offered several suggestions for Sen. Obama to show leadership and to act to unify the party. That could earn him tremendous respect and votes, and even Clinton supporters at the phones, knocking on doors, and the usual things a lot of us do during elections. Calling for a premature end, though, may make that impossible.

    It's his job to earn my vote, not Sen. Clinton's job to earn it for him.

    Give him his chance to do it.

    [ Parent ]

    It is not legitimate (5.00 / 4) (#141)
    by waldenpond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:19:23 PM EST
    until it is voted on at the convention.  Stop the race so he doesn't get bashed?  Oh good grief.  Campaign or quit.  No one is doing a thing to him.

    [ Parent ]
    Wimp. (none / 0) (#186)
    by oldpro on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:52:23 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The republicans (none / 0) (#82)
    by bjorn on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:53:23 PM EST
    are now calling Obama Pinocchiobama!  Do you think the "exaggeration" or "mistatements" or "lying" charges will stick any more in the GE than they have in the primary?  I am not sure they will.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:57:42 PM EST
    In the general the press will need to demonize one of the candidates. They think they need it for ratings. Right now they have Clinton. If their choices are limited to Obama or McCain who do you think they'll choose?

    [ Parent ]
    That's experience? (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by JoeCHI on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:05:53 PM EST
    I've been the the Vatican 5 times.

    Does that make me qualified to paint a fresco on the ceiling of the National Cathedral?

    I have been to (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:17:24 PM EST
    England (too many times to count), France (same), Italy(same), Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Ireland, Greece, Turkey, Israel (and the West Bank), China, Brazil and Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Canada (multiple times) and Puerto Rico (not a foreign country, exactly, but they speak a foreign language).

    I think I'm in line to become Secretary of State, if not POTUS, don't you agree?

    [ Parent ]

    Oh POTUS defintely (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:20:14 PM EST
    Hey I was born in Guantanamo Bay. Can I be your Secretary of Defense?

    [ Parent ]
    Either that (none / 0) (#65)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:32:27 PM EST
    or my chief interrogator/military commissioner/Lord of the Star Chamber.

    [ Parent ]
    :D (none / 0) (#80)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:51:25 PM EST
    Lord of the Star Chamber! I would totally rock that position.

    [ Parent ]
    But you are overqualified to be VP (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:22:01 PM EST
    according to BHO

    [ Parent ]
    I had a 3 hour layover in Tokyo (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by badger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:24:05 PM EST
    That qualifies me for ambassador to Japan on the Obama scale.

    [ Parent ]
    Oops, I forgot to mention my four (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:30:45 PM EST
    hour layover at Narita Airport on the way home from Hong Kong.

    I think that puts me over the top.

    [ Parent ]

    Hey, I spent a whole year in Japan. (none / 0) (#201)
    by allimom99 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:52:11 PM EST
    I even speak the language. So I should be President!

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:35:15 PM EST
    But maybe Pope?  :)

    [ Parent ]
    No, JoeCHI (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by bodhcatha on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:54:40 PM EST
    But it qualifies you to be Pope.  Congratulations, your Eminence!

    [ Parent ]
    According to Obama standards (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by BernieO on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:59:28 PM EST
    you could be Pope!

    [ Parent ]
    he knows "the people" in africa and (5.00 / 14) (#23)
    by english teacher on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:07:39 PM EST
    "the people" in pakistan, but he did not know that "the people" in his state senate district were living in heatless slums operated by his chum rezko?  

    I can see the ad now (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by standingup on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:44:12 PM EST
    with photo that Drudge had on his website. And a the photo of Obama as a child lving in Indonesia for four years contrasted with a photo of McCain as a POW for over five years.  

    I don't believe some of the gifts Obama gives to the Republicans to use against him in the general.    

    [ Parent ]

    He spent more time in Indonesia (5.00 / 9) (#26)
    by badger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:12:42 PM EST
    than he has in the Senate.

    That oughta count for something.

    Foreign Experience (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by rnibs on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:15:37 PM EST
    I lived in South America from ages 6 to 10 and after college and as an adult have traveled in Europe.

    Looks like I have the same amount of foreign policy experience as Obama.  Yep, I sure feel ready to lead the free world.

    Clinton did make fun of this (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:17:23 PM EST
    foreign policy experience as a child claim many months ago.  It just got her roundly panned by the MSM as being 'so negative'.  Maybe it will get more traction now.

    Obama was implying also... (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by Josmt on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:18:55 PM EST
    He basically doesn't need Hillary as VP, since he has more experience than her...

    Bully for all of us then (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Regency on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:25:43 PM EST
    Because I won't have to feel guilty for not giving him my vote.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't like the idea at all. (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by ghost2 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:44:52 PM EST
    Hillary gets to do all the work, whereas he can just cruise and take all the credit.  Then when he screws up, she is there to clean up.

    Thank you very much. Woman have done the work quietly and cleaned up the mess.  Not any more.
     

    [ Parent ]

    Good. (none / 0) (#61)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:29:07 PM EST
    he can do the work all on his own, or get one of his buddies to help him.  ;)

    [ Parent ]
    If Indonesia decides to attack us... (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:19:16 PM EST
    ...Obama is ready!!!

    You know (5.00 / 17) (#41)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:20:59 PM EST
    When Hillary Clinton went to China for the UN 4th World Conference on Women (and how sad is it that that was the name?  Like there are "people" and then there are "women"), I'm betting she went to the Embassy.  Chinese children probably did a little dance.  I'm certain there was tea (it being China).  And then she got up before her Chinese hosts and representatives from dozens of nations and said this:

    It is a violation of human rights when babies are denied food, or drowned, or suffocated, or their spines broken, simply because they are born girls.

    It is a violation of human rights when women and girls are sold into the slavery of prostitution for human greed -- and the kinds of reasons that are used to justify this practice should no longer be tolerated.

    It is a violation of human rights when women are doused with gasoline, set on fire, and burned to death because their marriage dowries are deemed too small.

    It is a violation of human rights when individual women are raped in their own communities and when thousands of women are subjected to rape as a tactic or prize of war.

    It is a violation of human rights when a leading cause of death worldwide among women ages 14 to 44 is the violence they are subjected to in their own homes by their own relatives.

    It is a violation of human rights when young girls are brutalized by the painful and degrading practice of genital mutilation.

    It is a violation of human rights when women are denied the right to plan their own families, and that includes being forced to have abortions or being sterilized against their will.

    If there is one message that echoes forth from this conference, let it be that human rights are women's rights and women's rights are human rights once and for all.

    I'm guessing she missed the trip to some USDA project.

    I wish (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Suma on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:25:06 PM EST
    I could laugh at his audacity, but all I can do is cry at the way this smart woman is being disgraced. Well, being a woman, that is all I am capable of - at least according to some.
    Does democracy have to be so hurtful?

    [ Parent ]
    What's next? (5.00 / 11) (#42)
    by Practically Lactating on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:21:11 PM EST
    He can solve the health care crisis because he's been to the doctor a few times in his day and happens to be able to rattle off a few billing codes?

    Mortgage woes? O knows some of the pitfalls of obtaining financing for a house because of his own home purchase, so we can check this one off on the qualifications list.

    This is nauseating.

    My sister is a doctor (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:33:49 PM EST
    and I've had five major surgeries on my knees, plus gall bladder surgery and two childbirths.

    I'm way ahead of Obama on that score.

    [ Parent ]

    it just makes me sick that this guy (5.00 / 6) (#50)
    by g8grl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:25:06 PM EST
    is being chosen to represent us.  I just don't see what all those Obama supporters see in him.  Why do they continue to support them?  It's a farce.  His idea of experience is living in Indonesia as a kid and travelling around after college.  He thinks that makes him MORE EXPERIENCED than Clinton and McCain.  I think that this is symptomatic of his idea that he's so fantastic, he doesn't really have to work very hard to jump to the front of the line.  He gets ahead by charm and misdirection.  Hard work is for grunts, he'll just think big picture and leave the results to the bean counters.  Sounds just like GWB.  

    It's also why he doesn't respect the Democratic party.  When it's so easy to become the party's standard bearer, you don't value the party.  If the Party is ripped apart?  Well easy come, easy go.

    I can see why some of his really young.... (5.00 / 7) (#66)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:32:49 PM EST
    ...supporters might believe this. I can't tell you how many interns I've had who by their second day on the job think they can do my job. This is his key audience. It's the cult of self-esteem. My own kids, god love them, thought they were great drivers the day after they got their learner's permit. I'm not so bugged by young people not valuing experience. They will learn to do so in time. But he's a bit long in the tooth to have that attitude.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain is a military brat (5.00 / 7) (#58)
    by esmense on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:28:18 PM EST
    he lived a large part of his childhood outside the country, too.
    And he lived in many different parts of this country (he attended 20 schools). Following Obama's logic, McCain can make the better argument about knowing not only more about the broader world, but also about the country.

    Of course no Obama supporter would buy that argument from McCain. Why should anyone buy it from Obama?

    It almost sounds like a yip dog (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by blogtopus on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:28:48 PM EST
    That gets all puffed up and feisty when on its own lawn, but watch out when the big dogs come around.

    Barry is almost daring anyone to contest him on this... and then what? He'll cry 'not fair' and run away? I'm confused by this move.

    Kerry encouragement (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:33:51 PM EST
    Well, Kerry basically encouraged him by saying that the fact that he is black and lived abroad, he will make the middle east and all the moslems fall on their knees and do everything America wants.  That combined with the childhood is rather disgusting.  

    What was he doing in Pakistan?  It's not like the regular place everyone goes to.  Plays into my super conspiracy theory joke but not ready for TL snark.    

    He had better come up (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:52:37 PM EST
    with an explanation for the Pakistan trip before the GOP does.

    Amazing that we have just this moment heard about it, though.  And how are we to fact-check the trip?  What other countries has O visited that we don't know about?

    [ Parent ]

    Dunno about you (none / 0) (#123)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:56:37 PM EST
    It's not in the top 10 places visited by American twenty somethings.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, a certain element (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:03:35 PM EST
    but you have a point.  Or maybe I do.

    This is going to be a really, really big mistake.  If he makes it to the ge, which I am thinking is a chance that gets slimmer and slimmer, this is going to be the first rabbit the GOP pulls out of its hat.

    Why bring it up?  I mean, it's just absolutely stupid.  He has not released his passport records.  There hasn't been a lot of political heat to get them out...unless....maybe there has been a le