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San Francisco to Undocumented Residents: You're Safe Here

No human being is illegal. Kudos to San Francisco:

The city of San Francisco has started an advertising push with a very specific target market: illegal immigrants. And while the advertisements will come in a bundle of languages — English, Spanish, Chinese, Russian, Vietnamese — they all carry the same message: you are safe here.

In what may be the first such campaign of its kind, the city plans to publish multilanguage brochures and fill the airwaves with advertisements relaying assurance that San Francisco will not report them to federal immigration authorities.

Mayor Gavin Newsom said the campaign was simply an amplification of a longstanding position of not cooperating with immigration raids or other enforcement. The city passed a so-called sanctuary ordinance in 1989.

The rationale behind it: (More...)

The television and radio campaign will tell immigrants they have “safe access” to public services, including schools, health clinics and — perhaps most importantly — the police, something that local law enforcement officials say is a chronic problem in émigré communities.

“It is a trademark of a criminal predator to convince victims that because of the victims’ immigration status that they — not the predator — will be treated as the criminal,” said Kamala Harris, the city’s district attorney. “We want to remove that tool from the criminal’s tool belt.”

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  • Display: Sort:
    And Obama (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by lilburro on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:37:15 PM EST
    didn't want his picture taken with this guy.

    There you go.  I'm fine with throwing that elbow.

    More Of That Please (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:39:41 PM EST
    Hope that this position is echoed by mayors across the US.

    It is a privilege (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by vigkat on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:46:17 PM EST
    To live in a city with a mayor who takes the high road on critically important civil rights issues.  I had not known that Obama refused to have his picture taken with Newsom.  What in the world formed the basis for that decision?

    Rumor has it... (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by joc on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:56:24 PM EST
    There are a number of gay people living in San Francisco. And the mayor feels they should be allowed to marry.

    Unity has its limits, baby!

    Parent

    Indeed, it is true (none / 0) (#8)
    by vigkat on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:11:21 PM EST
    From my office window, I watched the lines move around the block and into City Hall.  It was an amazing celebration that went on for days; a beautiful sight to behold.  Now the question is pending before the California Supreme Court, which heard oral arguments on the issue several weeks ago.  The court's opinion should be coming down soon.  

    Parent
    I had the same privilege (none / 0) (#54)
    by riddlerandy on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 11:04:52 AM EST
    of watching that amazing showing from high in the state building across the street from City Hall.  Folks lined up around the block throughout the night and in the rain.  One of my more memorable experiences.

    Parent
    Ah, I get it now (none / 0) (#9)
    by vigkat on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:17:01 PM EST
    The gay marriage thing was an impediment to the picture taking. Sorry I missed that in my initial reply to your comment, but as a long-time San Francisco resident, it's not something that would have immediately occurred to me.

    Parent
    this is grandstanding (none / 0) (#38)
    by bigbay on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 12:52:53 AM EST
    the city is cutting public health right now in a draconian way. Too many public 'servants' in the city are making $100,000 + at the same time.

    Newsom just wants to run for governor and his entire schtick now is to promote that. He can't run his own city, however.

    Parent

    You gotta love that guy (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:47:17 PM EST
    This is the mayor who gave gays the legal right to marry (even if it was revoked) and now undocumented workers.
    I'm glad I live in California.

    Go Gavin go!

    I do love him (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by vigkat on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:19:25 PM EST
    He is fearless about these matters.  Acting on principle always appeals to me.

    Parent
    not brave at all, actually (none / 0) (#39)
    by bigbay on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 12:55:21 AM EST
    this is a no-brainer political winner here.

    His choices on our current budget are horrible, and not far from Guliani-esque. I live here.

    Slashing public health is going to hurt undocumented workers a lot more than a few signs help. Firing thousands of public school teachers , as well.

    Parent

    New Haven, Connecticut (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by litigatormom on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:03:38 PM EST
    has issued its residents "Elm City ID Cards" that do not require proof of immigration status to obtain.  The card provides its holders with access to certain municipal services (libraries, beaches), is accepted as ID by local banks for purposes of setting up an account, and can also be used to pay for parking.

    Because the card has been issued without regard to immigration status, the municipal government has been attacked as "facilitating" illegal immigration.  Critics have called New Haven a "sanctuary city" and have gone so far as to suggest that the Mayor and certain other local officials are guilty of "aiding and abetting" illegal immigration in violation of federal criminal law -- even though such statutes have no application to to the provision of municipal services. Critics are also seeking City records concerning the card program in an attempt to discern which of the Card holders are not citizens for the possible purpose of harassment or worse. Protesters with ties to the John Birch Society and the Minuteman harassed applicants on line for the card when it was first issued last summer, and they continue to make noise and attempt to intimidate the immigrant community.

    All this for a little card.

    wow, interesting reactions (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 12:00:02 AM EST
    First and foremost, these are actual real human beings who are here illegally and should be treated humanly. I very much like the idea that SF is making it clear they can go to the police without worries. This seems a no brainer to me since people in this situation are vulnerable and unfortunately can be treated as slaves, so any mechanisms to fight that is well worth it.

    The bigger issues of open borders, national sovereignty and if or how to manage immigration is interesting. In the ideal world, we would have open borders everywhere. In the practical world, perhaps we can't. I for one don't really want 6 billion people to show up and say, move over. Then again, I can see the ironic justice in that for the dominant ethnic group in the US if that happened.

    Speaking for me, many of my ancestors came here illegally, some through Virginia and some later through Massachusetts. I'm personally glad they did, but I imagine the locals then were as pissed as some locals here are. So I can see both sides.

    Hopefully (none / 0) (#3)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:43:19 PM EST
    no federal tax money goes to this.  I wonder if state tax money is used if other cities in California can ask for an injunction.

    Speak for yourself. I've got NO (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by leis on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:46:58 PM EST
    problem with my tax dollars being used in this manner.

    Parent
    Then (none / 0) (#13)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:55:26 PM EST
    you should donate the money.  And I am speaking for myself.  If I was speaking for everyone, I would consider myself a progressive.  Coommon good and all.

    Parent
    Do you think undocumented workers pay no taxes? (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:14:35 PM EST
    Not only do they pay taxes every time they buy something, they also pay income taxes on SS numbers that are either made up or belong to other people.
    They will never collect on those taxes. those taxes will go to educate your and my children and towards our SS when we retire. They get none of it.

    So I'm sure if tax monies go to this; it will be their earned and paid taxes.

    Parent

    Where (none / 0) (#21)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 07:02:04 PM EST
    did I say Illegals pay no taxes?

    Parent
    So paying taxes (none / 0) (#22)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 07:02:46 PM EST
    due to identity theft is good.

    Parent
    you're twisting things to justify your point (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 08:18:26 PM EST
    of view and you don't need to do that. Just own it, that's all.

    I was just letting you know that if you're so concerned about taxes paying for this program, you should realize it is the undocumented NOT ILLEGAL workers' own taxes paying for it. So you need not be concerned about your tax dollars paying for this program.

    I only wonder what you would do if your family was hungry with no possibility of earning enough to feed them.

     I wonder if someone gave you an opportunity to do honest work and earn money to support them, if you would take it, or wait 15 years to get a document that said you could work. What would you say to your hungry child?

    Frankly we need the workers and our government doesn't give out enough visas to supply the demand for labor. I'm assuming you are familiar with that though.

    Parent

    Please provide a link (none / 0) (#45)
    by Wile ECoyote on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 05:51:43 AM EST
    backing your statement that
    undocumented NOT ILLEGAL workers' own taxes paying for it.
     So no other taxpayer money is used?  

    Parent
    Gotta call BS on this one. (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 12:11:15 PM EST
    I only wonder what you would do if your family was hungry with no possibility of earning enough to feed them
    In general the south-of-the-border undocumented immigrants, especially the Mexicans, are not coming here because they can't feed their children.

    Mexico has a low level of undernourishment; 5 percent of the population is undernourished.

    They are coming here because they will likely have the opportunity of earning more money and buying more stuff than they could in their home country.

    Parent

    Here's a link that debunks your statements (none / 0) (#58)
    by mexboy on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 01:32:33 PM EST
    Want to provide one that backs yours up?

    Can't seem to add a link..anyone want to tell me how to do it?

    Parent

    Sure, here you go. (none / 0) (#60)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 01:53:23 PM EST
    To link, with apologies if it's too basic:

    -highlight the URL of the web-page that you want to link to.

    -copy the URL ("edit" then "copy").

    -come back to TL and write something in your "Comment:" box.

    -highlight the word(s) in that comment that you want to be the link.

    -click the "URL" button above the "Comment:" box, it's the button that has
    an icon that looks like links of a chain. That brings up a link box, and your cursor is automatically in it.

    -hold down the "Ctrl" button on your computer's keyboard and then type "v". That copies the url into the link box.

    -click "OK."

    -click the "Preview" button below the "Comments:" box.

    -if the preview looks good - ie., the word(s) you selected to be the link
    are a different color from the rest of the text - click the "Post" button below the "Comments:" box.

    Parent

    Oh and here are my links: (none / 0) (#61)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 02:08:07 PM EST
    Mexico has a low level of undernourishment; 5 percent of the population is undernourished.

    Ranking   Country   Percentage of population suffering from undernourishment in 1990-92   Percentage of population suffering from undernourishment in 2001-2003  
    1 Eritrea 68% 73%
    2 Democratic Republic of the Congo 31% 72%
    3 Burundi 48% 67%
    4 Tajikistan 22% 61%
    5 Sierra Leone 46% 50%
    [...]
    45 Mexico 5% 5%

    Population Undernourished (Percent of Total Population)
    2001-2003

    Rank Country Name  Percent  
     Global NA
    1 Eritrea 73%
    2 Congo (Dem. Republic of) 72%
    3 Burundi 67%
    4 Comoros 62%
    5 Tajikistan 61%
    [...]
    42 Mexico 5%


    Parent
    thanks for telling me how to link, It worked! (none / 0) (#76)
    by mexboy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:55:09 PM EST
    Wow, it's been hectic with mid terms and all, and so it took me a while to get back to you, but here it goes:

    According to the World Bank organization:

     in 2002
    Mexican population 102 million people

    half the population in Mexico living in poverty.
    that is 51 Million people living in poverty

    25% were living in extreme poverty.
    25 Million men, women and children living in extreme poverty.

    Nourishment has to do with the nutritional value in food, not necessarily with the amount of food. Small nutritious meals (like rice and beans, game etc) can nourish someone for the entire day.

    Here

    Parent

    I never said they steal the numbers (none / 0) (#25)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 08:19:48 PM EST
    Some people are only too happy to let others work with their ss#. I'm sure you understand why.

    Parent
    Since Illegal aliens (1.00 / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 08:33:37 PM EST
    create no new jobs, and take jobs that could be taken by legal immigrants and US citizens, any taxes they pay are not additional revenues.

    In addition they depress the wages and hurt the working conditions of all workers because they will work for less and they will not complain about the poor working conditions.

    In short, San Fran is subsidizing the people who hire them. And since many are paid cash, no income taxes are paid.

    Parent

    Where do you get your information? (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:10:13 PM EST
    Lots of undocumented workers have their own companies. I'm sure that's a shocker to you, but that in fact is a reality.

    And since you are so willing to work in the field picking oranges, lettuce, potatoes or wash dishes in a restaurant and clean offices and bathrooms for minimum wages...Those are the jobs you are wiling to do right? The jobs you are fighting for and  say they take from citizens who are willing to do them.

    Why don't you have an honest argument instead of one based on lies and your own personal feelings.

    These workers do the jobs no citizen will do, otherwise they'd be doing them. Employers are always willing to hire hard workers.

    I will no longer respond to you since I find it difficult to tolerate your irrational xenophobic views.

    Parent

    The issue is price. (1.00 / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 08:41:08 AM EST
    If the price is right, people will work. Illegal aliens are willing to work for less so the result is depressed wages and poor working conditions.

    Your political beliefs are responsible for this simple fact of life effecting millions of US citizens and legal immigrants.  

    If illegal aliens have their own companies then then they are filling a need that would otherwise be filled by legal immigrants or US citizens. They have brought nothing new to the table.

    I grew up on a farm. I worked on the farm and did other jobs while in high school. Among others I have worked in factories, installed electronic equipment, and yes, been a wait person. I also spent 10 years in service to my country.

    Since you won't respond, let me tell the world why. I have written the truth and you can't stand it.

    Parent

    Good for you (5.00 / 0) (#59)
    by mexboy on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 01:44:13 PM EST
    I'm glad you have and are doing the hard labor. I have worked for a major home improvement company for almost two years  doing research and getting a mailing list for the company on the field. The program is directed at Spanish speaking construction workers and company owners. About 95% of the workers in construction are Mexican and or Spanish speakers. I know my information is anecdotal, so no I don't have any links, but it is real everyday experience.

    The pay in that market is not undervalued, they make good wages. So, how do you explain that at least 90% of those workers are Mexican or Latinos?

    You are one of the few people who are citizens and has done that kind of work. I know I don't want to do it.

    I am quite comfortable with you taking this as opinion because it is my personal experience and I don't know if studies have been made in the construction field. It is difficult to get people who don't have the papers to give you information. But I know one thing, they are building our country, like other immigrants before they have.

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 07:57:25 PM EST
    You are one of the few people who are citizens and has done that kind of work. I know I don't want to do it.

    Are you serious??? You must be kidding. No one would make such a statement.

    The pay in that market is not undervalued, they make good wages. So, how do you explain that at least 90% of those workers are Mexican or Latinos?

    Are they unionized? Do they get health care benefits??

    And if the pay is so good, why don't you take it???

    Frankly mexboy you are a disappointment.

    Parent

    wrong again (none / 0) (#77)
    by mexboy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:59:31 PM EST
    Every person is an individual and has his/her own special talent.

    I know of a couple multi-millionaires who came to this country without documents and with their talents created enterprises that now employ citizens.

    Those jobs would have not been created without them. One of those people is Piolin; he is the #1 DJ in the nation. Google him.

    The other is a friend who works in entertainment. It is that talent that enriches our culture and created new jobs.

    Parent

    Provde some links (none / 0) (#44)
    by Wile ECoyote on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 05:48:28 AM EST
    to bolster your argument.

    Parent
    here is one (none / 0) (#78)
    by mexboy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:01:07 PM EST
    I've been away during mid terms, so couldn't get back to you.
    But here you go.

    Parent
    if anyone is relying on undocumented (none / 0) (#46)
    by cpinva on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 07:28:14 AM EST
    assertions of "fact", it's you.

    And since you are so willing to work in the field picking oranges, lettuce, potatoes or wash dishes in a restaurant and clean offices and bathrooms for minimum wages...Those are the jobs you are wiling to do right? The jobs you are fighting for and  say they take from citizens who are willing to do them.

    you conveniently ignore a basic rule of economics: supply = price at quantity demanded. to put this in terms applicable to the present discussion: if the pay offered was commensurate with, or greater than, that which could be received elsewhere, for similar work, people would be trampling the doors down to get those jobs.

    however, if using undocumented people enables an employer to radically reduce their labor cost, then legal citizens aren't going to be jumping at them.

    as well, it puts that employer in a more competative position, when bidding for a job, because his costs are illegally lower than the guy who only employs people legally able to work here.

    this all has a ripple effect.

    no lies or personal feelings, just harsh economic facts.

    Parent

    Talk to the employers (none / 0) (#79)
    by mexboy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:02:31 PM EST
    and the consumers. They have as much or more responsibility because everyone wants cheap labor and goods.

    I'm assuming that you would be happy to pay a lot more for produce and other goods, right?

    Parent

    completely false (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 01:12:29 AM EST
    Jim, you know better than that. Don't spread your opinions as fact here, particularly when they are wrong.

    Parent
    Jeralyn (1.00 / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 08:57:53 AM EST
    I won't address the wage and working conditions impact, cpinva does that quite well.

    But the fact remains that there are only X number of jobs. If the jobs are taken by illegal aliens then they are not available for legal immigrants and US citizens.

    I have commented numerous times that we should close the border and then rationalize what to do about the 11-15 million people who are already here. I have also commented that we need to pressure other countries, especially Mexico, to change their economic and cultural programs to fix their problems which are forcing millions of their citizens to leave their home country, their families and their friends to try and settle in another nation.

    For many years illegal workers were ignored because the economy was expanding, and there was a need for unskilled labor. That is no longer the case. There is no shortage of unskilled workers. There is a wage base that is unacceptable given the security net that is available. I believe we need to force the wage base up and people will leave the security net. The way to do that is to shrink the labor supply by closing the borders.

    Parent

    demonstrably false statement (none / 0) (#43)
    by cpinva on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 02:56:40 AM EST
    on your part jeralyn, you should know better. from a strictly economic point, undocumented workers do have a detrimental impact on wages. if that weren't the case, sweatshops filled with low-paid, undocumented persons wouldn't exist. and yet, they do.

    if i can get someone to work for $5 instead of $10, i'm going to do that. that drives down all wages, regardless of the reason for it.

    since a fair # of them (especially in the construction trades) are paid cash, the great liklihood is that no taxes, of any kind, are being paid. this is true in the agricultural area as well.

    no doubt many of them do pay taxes, but i've yet to see any empirical data supporting the oft made assertion that they collectively pay more in taxes than they receive in public (roads, utilities, emergency medical care, etc.) services. it may well be true, i just haven't seen anything concrete to support it.

    as for the ID card mentioned above being used to set up bank accounts, the banks best hope they aren't audited by the feds, they stand to lose their charter, unless they can show an SSN was included.

    i have great sympathy for these people; war and economic incompetence on the part of their home country's governments have driven them to the brink. what's needed is pressure put on their home gov'ts to get their act together, along with comprehensive immigration law reform, not grandstanding by the mayor of san francisco.

    Parent

    So, in your opinion.. (none / 0) (#14)
    by bruins01 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:20:31 PM EST
    ...all taxes should only be paid as donations?

    There are probably tons of government programs to which your tax dollars go that you dislike. Deal with it. It's the way it should be.

    Parent

    No I (none / 0) (#17)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:38:01 PM EST
    did not say that.  If you would like to support illegals, then donate money.  San Fran is more than welcome to use its own taxpayer money to do that.  

    Parent
    I believe that is (none / 0) (#18)
    by leis on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:07:55 PM EST
    exactly what San Francisco is doing; using it's own taxpayer dollars.  

    Parent
    Federal TAX (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:51:15 PM EST
    money should go to big corp who run down the companies and their CEO walks away with millions.....or to overthrowing a country that has oil!! SNARK!

    I would gladly have my money go to the people that really need it.

    Parent

    Tax Dollars Spent? (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:21:46 PM EST
    Uhhh, I do not know if you have read the post, but if you haven't, it is about SF not allowing the Feds to spend your money on harassing immigrants.

    ....San Francisco will not report them to federal immigration authorities...

    and other cities are saving your money as well:

    San Francisco is not alone in its sanctuary status; New York, Detroit and Washington have policies that discourage the police from enforcing immigration law.


    Parent
    you should reconsider (none / 0) (#19)
    by boredmpa on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:11:10 PM EST
    There are significant costs that are incurred if illegals don't call the cops, don't go to hospitals, don't send their kids to school, and are afraid to use clinics.

    Rhetoric aside, money talks and the city is doing this for the same reasons that cities sued banks over low income foreclosures (crime increase costs money), the same reason police support youth centers and education programs (crime reduction saves money), and the same reasons that they support education programs for illegals (workforce investment).

    Parent

    Well.... (none / 0) (#16)
    by jarober on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:37:55 PM EST
    I can only hope that:

    1. The Feds pull all Federal aid to SFO
    2. SFO doesn't whine about the unfairness of there being consequences

    I don't expect that, but it would be fitting.

    no aid to SFO? (none / 0) (#36)
    by mscristine on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:38:25 PM EST
    You don't want aid coming to our airport?

    Parent
    Agreed. No human being is illegal. (none / 0) (#23)
    by CodeNameLoonie on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 07:15:02 PM EST
    Immigration is a civil rights issue, and should not be criminalized.

    Driver's licenses should be issued to undocumented workers. Clinton should never have backed away from this.

    Obama should formulate a clear policy explaining why this position is but one step in an urgently needed revamping of the entire current system from a civil rights perspective.

    Bravo San Fran!

    What right does a non-US citizen (1.00 / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 08:53:59 PM EST
    have to enter the US??

    The answer, of course, is none.

    What you are advocating is open borders.

    Parent

    Being that a lot of those so called (none / 0) (#30)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 09:19:51 PM EST
    illegals are native americans I think they have all the right in the world.  

    Parent
    You mean like when the founding fathers came here? (none / 0) (#34)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:14:00 PM EST
    I mean, you do know the pilgrims didn't get a green card to enter the country, much of which belonged to Mexico.

    So with your logic this country was founded by illegal aliens and the new undocumented workers coming here are following in the proud tradition of this country.

    You should celebrate them! Who's more American than one who follows the tradition set by the founding fathers?


    Parent

    In case you haven't noticed (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 09:04:18 AM EST
    it isn't the 15th, 16th, 17th century.

    Countries exist because someone founded them and someone defended the borders. You may find this distasteful, but it is factual. In fact, most of the NA's displaced other NA's by war and assimilation over thousands of years. We are just the latest in a long line.

    Read "The Contested Plains." You may learn something.

    Parent

    So what you are advocating (none / 0) (#50)
    by CodeNameLoonie on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 09:17:16 AM EST
    is a police state?

    In which a privileged majority enjoy the (legal) fruits of an exploited minority's (illegal) labor?  

    What is the problem with addressing immigration as a civil rights issue?

    Forget for a moment about the moral imperative. It is a far more practical approach than a wall (and the laws necessary to make such a wall in any way a deterrent.)

    Parent

    no what I advocate is some liberal ideals (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Florida Resident on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 09:57:28 AM EST
    sanctuary being one of them.  But I guess progressives are not liberals so I am not going to find them.  Look, you can believe what you want but the old they keep the salaries down and take jobs away from us line is right out of the old welfare queen line.  Did you ever wonder why when the talked about welfare the always pictured black families?  In reality the majority of people on welfare are white.  Hell why don't we just blame the lack of jobs on the indian worker in Delhi who does it for less, or in Jakarta?  It's just as easy.
    Maybe it is the fact that I never had to collect welfare or unemployment or use food stamps but I think that when people have needs they should be addressed and their status should be an afterthought not a measuring stick.  
    I have worked with many kinds of people in many different jobs, mostly in public health.  During my life I've had to work with many aliens documented and undocumented.  The American undocumented workers I have worked with were mostly of Mayan, Incan, or other native american nations descent.  To me, they have more rights to be here than we do it was their home before it was our.  So let's get off out high horses and remember we are all humans.

    Parent
    I agree with you wholeheartedly, FL resident. (none / 0) (#52)
    by CodeNameLoonie on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 10:03:23 AM EST
    My response and questions were addressed to jimakaPPJ above. Sorry for the confusion.

    Parent
    thanks (none / 0) (#53)
    by Florida Resident on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 10:08:28 AM EST
    Solve the problem. (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 12:28:56 PM EST
    Don't just do and say things that make you feel good.

    It is nonsense to try and connect the old "welfare queen line" to the proven fact that an over supply of any commodity decreases prices.

    Labor....especially unskilled labor...is a commodity. Reduce the supply and wages will rise.

    And unless you close the border you will not decrease the supply. The working poor, legal immigrants and US citizens plus the illegal aliens will continue to suffer economic hardship because of your beliefs.

    What "we," the American people have done is enjoyed the fruits of the unskilled illegal alien's labor with cheaper products from fruit to wine while shielding the employer's from the effects of the market place.

    And you are doing no worker any favors by "allowing" them to leave their families so they can earn money to support their families and shore up a country, Mexico in particular, with huge problems while "we" enjoy the fruits of this activity.

    Parent

    Build your fence and enjoy it (none / 0) (#62)
    by Florida Resident on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 03:34:46 PM EST
    and BTW about the we the american people BS the only real american people are the Native Americans all the rest of us are either Aliens or their descendants.

    Parent
    Aren't the NA's immigrants also? (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 05:29:26 PM EST
    They sure as hell were here well before we (none / 0) (#64)
    by Florida Resident on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 06:49:29 PM EST
    got here.  And look if you feel that way is good for you but don't call yourself a progressive or a liberal.

    Parent
    One more time (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 08:14:07 PM EST
    Read "The Contested Plains."

    Educate yourself.

    As for the NA we ran into.... they met up with a culture and society that was quicker, faster and meaner. It also had a better religious system and a more humane system of punishment.

    And when we run into a culture and society that is quicker, faster and meaner.... we'll be on the reservation.

    Parent

    Good maybe you'll like it in a reservation. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:32:07 AM EST
    For now I just enjoy being human and acting like one.  Something I guess you have not learned.

    Parent
    a member of whatever affinity group you claim.


    Parent
    And I'm glad of that cause if you are an (none / 0) (#68)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:30:49 AM EST
    example of what is being brought into the Democratic party god help it.  

    Parent
    Resident (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:54:14 AM EST
    Your behavior is child like. Three commentators have noted yes we have a problem. All three say fix the problem. And your response is:

    For now I just enjoy being human and acting like one.  Something I guess you have not learned.

    No. I never learned to ignore problems. In my youth when it was time to do something, we did it. No feel good BS.

    Of course my generation won the cold war, attacked discrimination, cured polio, sent a man to the moon... Yours??

    Parent

    Same things Also worked in public health most (none / 0) (#71)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 10:03:26 AM EST
    of my life how about you.  Do you feel we are superior to Iraqis have a more just justice system and a better religion?

    Parent
    BTW this is my last response since (none / 0) (#72)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 10:04:37 AM EST
    Obviously you real americans are so superior.

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:44:08 PM EST
    Define the word "we." As "people" everyone is equal before God. As individuals, some of us excel were others do not. The reasons are varied and individualistic, just as what we excel or fail at is individualistic and varied.

    As a society/culture/nation, yes we are superior to the Iraqis. Our justice system is better and our religion, here I assume you are referring to Christianity as a "group," is better than Islam for a variety of reasons.

    A few of the important differences.

    Honor killings of females.

    Stoning of females.

    Riots whenever they think Mohammed has been "insulted."

    Hanging of gays.

    Hanging of females for raping men.

    Lack of education opportunities for females.

    Basically the Islamic faith remains stuck in the 7th-8th century. It was founded on military expansion  and remains so. To me the essential difference is that Islam has had a Reformation.


    Parent

    BTW - Thank you for admitting what is obvious to (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:45:47 PM EST
    the millions of people who want to come to America.

    Perhaps you will trade places with one?????

    Parent

    that is "had not had a Reformation." (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:46:57 PM EST
    god a lot of people here sound like republicans (none / 0) (#29)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 09:18:30 PM EST


    some of them are (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 01:11:03 AM EST
    feel free to ignore them.

    Parent
    LA times says that E-Verify is working well (none / 0) (#31)
    by thereyougo on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 09:23:01 PM EST
    in AZ and illegal immigrants are LEAVING of their own volition. Imagine that! No jobs they go home.

    You're right (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:15:02 PM EST
    And the economy in AZ is paying the consequences.

    I do agree with you that they come here to work. At least you didn't say they came here to commit crimes.

    Parent

    Is Newsom a closet Republican? (none / 0) (#40)
    by dianem on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 01:02:40 AM EST
    I know it seems unlikely, but he always seems to come up with this stuff in election years, and it always seems designed more to stir up political hornet's nests than to actually accomplish the stated goal. This may be a worth endeavor, but if it encourages right-wingers to come out in droves to elect anti-immigrant congresspersons, it's going to end up hurting a lot more people than it helps.

    I had the good fortune (none / 0) (#55)
    by riddlerandy on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 11:10:13 AM EST
    of working with Supervisor Nancy Walker in 1987 or so in drafting the first SF City of Refuge resolution, prohibiting the use of City resources to assist Immigration in identifying or arresting undocumented persons.