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Obama's Age Problem: He's Not Connecting and There's More of Them

Barack Obama is not just lagging among blue collar voters, he's got a big age problem to overcome and his popularity with younger voters isn't enough compensation:

In the Pennsylvania and Ohio primaries, Obama lost older whites by 30 percentage points, while Clinton split white voters under age 30 in both critical contests. Obama’s senior problem is even greater among Hispanics. The Illinois senator lost older Latinos by 40 to 60 percentage points in Texas, New Mexico and California.

....Older, college-educated voters consistently favor Clinton, though by small margins. Obama’s weakness is largely among seniors without college degrees, whom Clinton wins 3-to-1.

More...

Wisconsin:

Even in Wisconsin, where the white working class moved to Obama, he lost whites age 60 and older by 9 percentage points.

These voters constitute a quarter to a third of Democrats in nominating contests — where after Iowa, the youth vote largely ranged from 12 to 16 percent of voters.

....[while] Clinton lost white females overall, she still won 56 percent of those women 45 and older. Clinton’s support is even stronger among white women who are seniors.

PA and Ohio:

Clinton won a stunning seven in ten white voters age 60 and older primarily because the gender gap diminishes to Clinton's favor with older voters.

....In Pennsylvania, exit polls show that Obama won 54 percent of white men under age 45, while Clinton won 61 percent of the older white men. For white women, Clinton won 63 percent under age 45 and 69 percent 45 and older.

On women,

Seniors are more likely to be women and less educated. So Clinton’s strength with both groups is only heightened among older voters.

....Democratic white women in particular, from the early Baby Boomers to those born before women could vote, are also more likely to be feminists. Many of their lives are in part defined by the women's movement.

....In most contests, white women of all ages remain firmly with Clinton. But Obama’s strength with white male Democrats stops near middle age.

How does this factor into the general election with McCain as the opponent?

< Karl Rove Gives Obama Six Pointers to Recover and Win | Late Night: Summing Up Rev. Wright >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Finally (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:45:01 PM EST
    age and education have some power again. Whew!

    Maybe going is doing away with social security, wishing anyone over 50 would just die off, dirty hippies, get out of the way - it's our turn, we are the ones.

    And maybe even Bill Clinton will survive.

    Oh He Will & Will Help Bring Back AA Vote (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:07:52 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    This Is A Big Part Of It IMO (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:13:06 PM EST
    To date, Obama or his supporters have shown no respect for seniors. Obama has spoken unfavorably of the 60s through the 90s. It has pretty much been we are the new generation so just shut up and get out of our way.

    [ Parent ]
    you know.... (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by sas on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:34:03 PM EST
    they are young and know it all

    [ Parent ]
    We are the ones we've been waiting for (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Prabhata on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:41:12 PM EST
    Say what? BO and his followers (not supporters) are out of touch.

    [ Parent ]
    Yup... (5.00 / 7) (#55)
    by k on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:41:01 PM EST
    My mother is 80 and is highly offended by the lack of respect shown for both women her age and eduction. My mother only made it to 10th grade but she is one of the smartest women I know. I always tell her there is educated...and then there is intellegent.

    And my mother agrees...she says that the only part of her body that hasn't gone south is her brain.

    She came of age during the 40's when most husbands were off to war and the women were  working and living independent lives. My mother is the original feminist.

    To be dissed as too old to matter ticks her off and the sexism has her climbing the walls. There is no way Obama gets her vote. For the first time ever she'll stay home.

    [ Parent ]

    Your mother is right (5.00 / 5) (#63)
    by Prabhata on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:46:26 PM EST
    I've met people extremely smart (my sister for one), with little education, but could look at a complicated problem and find its solution in no time.  My sister had a brain like a computer.  I went to college because times had changed by the time I was old enough to get an education.  She was looking at opening a business and figured in her head a break-even-point that is taught in cost accounting. Smart uneducated people are more impressive than the schooled type because their knowledge is from their bones and experience.  Can't beat that.

    [ Parent ]
    Older women (5.00 / 5) (#96)
    by rose city on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:18:46 PM EST
    My mother is 78 and feels the same way. She feels disrespected because of age and gender and she is also very conscious of the fact that she has no college education. Women obviously weren't encouraged to go to college in the 1940s.

    She says now that she is older she feels invisible. She is a life-long Republican but intends to vote for Clinton if she's the nominee. She has told me she won't vote for Obama. She doesn't like McCain, either.

    [ Parent ]

    Your comment actually (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by k on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:36:08 PM EST
    makes me sad. A lifetime of experience should never make one feel invisible.  My rowdy mother, on the other hand, feels empowered. For her, not voting is making more of a statement than voting this time around. As she said with hands on hips...they can't kick me to the curb without consequences!

    Mommy dearest makes me laugh.

    [ Parent ]

    Your Mom (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:40:19 AM EST
    sounds like my Mom.  Seniors are SO under-valued.  I am so glad they show their strength at the ballot box.

    [ Parent ]
    There is a Spanish saying, (5.00 / 4) (#146)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:52:08 PM EST
    "schooled but not educated."

    [ Parent ]
    My Mom (5.00 / 8) (#172)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:34:30 AM EST
    is 74 and she gets very upset about the sexism against Hillary.  We are Chicanos and in our culture, moreso than not, the woman is the head of the household, or, rather, carries a lot of influence.  So my Mom sees it as an insult to Hillary's resolve and her position in the family structure.

    She also fondly remembers 1993-2000.  WAY too many seniors remember those as pretty darn good years.  So when BHO goes off and blurs the distinction between the Reagan/Bush years to Clinton 42, they take HUGE notice.

    My mother already said that she will not give up her vote but will write in HRC.  I laud that action.

    [ Parent ]

    yep (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by jedimom on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:47:03 PM EST
    I was told that very thing 1/22 my first blog day thereisnospoon on MYDD told me it was their party and we Gen Xers with our IRAs and our Iraq wars were done..and die already get out of the way something like that
    I was shocked to the core

    [ Parent ]
    exactly! (none / 0) (#23)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:17:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    A savvy study of this months ago (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:37:25 PM EST
    was on pollster.com -- it's about age and class (for which a main determinant is your other factor, education).  Dem pollster Maggie Ormero called it 'way back in January.  

    A line of hers then, just after New Hampshire, about the media focus on gender was predictive: "While the press continues to assume voters view Clinton through the lens of their own gender, perhaps it is the press's own lens that is clouded."  (Be sure to click through the links in this piece to her earlier analyses, too.  She's worth reading, easy to comprehend and with good lines like that.)

    [ Parent ]

    Makes you wonder what is going (none / 0) (#88)
    by hairspray on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:13:42 PM EST
    on in the journalism curriculum these days.

    [ Parent ]
    He set the tone for this early in his campaign. (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:43:35 PM EST
    I recall commenting on this early on.  He flaunted his youthfulness, the support of the younger generation that made the middle and older groups feel obsolete.  He did not take the time or did not show enough concern for the various groups that comprise society. Had he given this thought, instead of just having the change/hope slogans, his rhetoric would have signified this.  But obviously he never had other groups in mind except his own generation and younger.

    It is too late now.  It comes from an inner attitude which you either havve by the time you reach adulthood, or you don't. There is a saying, "Words out of your mouth come straight from your heart."

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah! Been there, done that! (none / 0) (#85)
    by hairspray on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:11:41 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    One thing is for sure: Stop the McCain age bashing (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:45:09 PM EST
    It would maybe work if Hillary was the nominee, but if its Obama, it only plays into the image that all his supporters are bunch of clueless, young punks.  Geez, the guy is about the same age as Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, Tom Harkin, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein... well, most of the U.S. Senate is over 60, so you get the idea.

    The problem with McCain are not (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Gabriele Droz on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:29:08 PM EST
    necessarily age-related.  It's his forgetfulness of facts (or his lack of doing the homework), and the statements he puts forth, lacking an understanding of who Shiites and Sunnis are, etc. etc.

    Whatever the reasons are for him not "knowing the territory", it's a lack of something, surely, no matter where it came from.

    In his case, I don't think it's as much of an age issue (but then again it might), as much as an issue of not knowing the territory.  Either one should be examined further.

    [ Parent ]

    Age matters and old people know it (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Prabhata on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:52:26 PM EST
    It doesn't have to be explained.  But people will ignore the age problem, like the voters did with Reagan because the Democrats could not win the blue collar voter, like BO.  The Clintons understand that if the blue collar is not happy, the Democrats cannot be happy.

    [ Parent ]
    I just read about this at CBS's webpage (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:47:36 PM EST
    Seniors are the most reliable bloc of voters. Always.  Cannot win a thing without these important group of people.  Seniors know that voting is the bedrock of our country and take it very seriously.

    O/T...looks like NC's governor is going to endorse Hillary tomorrow!  Great news for HRC!

    Aw. (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:48:57 PM EST
    early Baby Boomers to those born before women could vote, are also more likely to be feminists. Many of their lives are in part defined by the women's movement.

    That made me smile. And made me sad at the same time.

    Excuse me, baby boomers were born after WWII (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Prabhata on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:56:04 PM EST
    I know, I'm one.  Women got the right to vote in 1920 (I think). I don't care to look it up.  Most women living today have been able to vote.

    [ Parent ]
    My mom was born in 1918 (5.00 / 4) (#100)
    by echinopsia on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:26:34 PM EST
    She was born not able to vote. She is VERY aware of this.

    [ Parent ]
    It referred to a range of ages (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by cymro on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:39:15 PM EST
    Since the baby boom is usually defined as 1946-1964, the age range included in "baby boomers to those born before women could vote" can be interpreted as referring to those born before 1964, and all the way back to those born before 1920.

    In other words, anyone older than 44.

    [ Parent ]

    but he wins the black vote big... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by white n az on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:49:40 PM EST
    and that's gonna carry him in NC

    Well, Wright issue (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by delandjim on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:27:31 PM EST
    Yes I agree he has been getting 90+% of the AA vote. BUT on the cable shows as they talk about this Wright issue, they are touting polls saying 64% of the AA people are not offended or upset about Wright.

    BUT I figure that leaves 36% who ARE UPSET. That may have an impact.

    [ Parent ]

    Any AA vote that HRC takes is a great win (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by Prabhata on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:57:44 PM EST
    and very bad for BO.  That's his base.

    [ Parent ]
    Rock and hard place... (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by delandjim on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:03:28 AM EST
    Yes and because of this he has a real problem. I have not heard a single political consultant, strategist, operative etc. say anything but disown this, disavow this. And why doesn't he take a stronger stand against this.

    I think I may know, if he does he stands to alienate a fair amount of the AA that are on Wright's side. And if he doesn't he looks like he agrees with it to some extent.

    [ Parent ]

    I think these tend to be voters... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:51:15 PM EST
    ... who are risk-averse. Obama's hope-and-change mantra, as well as the uncertainties of what he stands for in the wake of the Wright controversy and the bitterness controversey, makes it hard for them to pull the trigger even if they are enticed by some things about him.

    I would guess these are voters who would consider McCain against Obama, but they are also Democrats. Even if they don't love Hillary, they've lived through eight years of Clinton policies, and seen that they were not a disaster (and most probably considered them good times). I'd expect those voters to support Hillary against McCain.


    they certainly (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by coolit on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:54:53 PM EST
    wouldn't support any crazy speeches like, "No. No. NO.  Not God bless America, God Damn America!"

    [ Parent ]
    Very true. (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:09:41 PM EST
    My father (in his 70's) is pretty GOP-leaning. He's surprisingly willing a consider Hillary, who he respects for her efforts in New York (he's ex-NYPD). I doubt he'd actually vote for her, but he tells me a lot of his Democratic friends support Hillary, but won't consider Obama. That's anecdotal, but I suspect it's the case for a lot of people in his age range.

    [ Parent ]
    The junior Senator from Illinois (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by nellre on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:30:43 PM EST
    The junior Senator from Illinois is too inexperienced.
    You young whippersnappers don't know that experience and wisdom have value because you don't have either.
    But pay attention, and in 20 years or so, you will. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    If you've been around the block (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by LHinSeattle on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:15:09 AM EST
    a few times, you get pickier about who you choose. Want a record of some accomplishments behind all that fine talking.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Lose The Senior Vote In The GE (5.00 / 9) (#16)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:04:54 PM EST
    Seniors normally prefer experience.

    We have heard every version of hope, change and I'm a uniter and not a divider imaginable and know it is just campaign gobblygook.

    "New guy" getting the job that we or one of our friends worked years to get is not something we appreciate.

    Older women would like to see a woman president during their lifetime.

    Old men might like to see one of their age group get this honor.

    Old people get out of the way and let us run the show doesn't go over real well. Believe it or not, we still think we have life left and something to offer.

    Older people expect the Democrats to protect Social Security and not put it on the table.


    also (5.00 / 11) (#19)
    by miguelito on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:09:15 PM EST
    they actually remember the difference between the Reagan 80s and the Clinton 90s

    [ Parent ]
    Good Point (4.85 / 7) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:19:29 PM EST
    Turned me off big time when he reinforced the propaganda of Reagan being an iconic leader. The more he talks about modeling his foreign policy after Reagan/BushI the less inclined I am to vote for him in the GE.

    Of course, my list for not wanting to vote for him grows daily even without Reagan in the mix.

    [ Parent ]

    "Older, college-educated voters" (5.00 / 6) (#22)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:16:03 PM EST
    YES!!!! {happy dance}

    I'm no longer an old low info uneducated voter! That was kinda sucking seeing as I'm only in my late 40's, lol!~  {GRIN}

    Man... (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:17:42 PM EST
    I sort of liked my standing before.  

    [ Parent ]
    I'd Like To Be Standing In The Crowd Watching (5.00 / 6) (#27)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:21:26 PM EST
    Hillary be inaugurated... :)

    [ Parent ]
    I know (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:23:13 PM EST
    I feel kinds of reminiscent of the old days (yesterday) of being the old cranky low information voter.  It felt so original, so fresh, especially since it was such a lie.

    Now that I'm back to being "older and college educated and pretty informed," I'm feeling just a little let down.

    [ Parent ]

    base is classic not just old (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by jedimom on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:52:24 PM EST
    look like maybe Coke Classic beats New Coke
    AGAIN

    Dem base is Classic voters

    [ Parent ]

    Nawww.... (none / 0) (#35)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:25:33 PM EST
    Do not use the "E" word.  

    [ Parent ]
    Obama's screwed (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by SueBonnetSue on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:29:32 PM EST
    If he turns off the old folks and the boomers.  They VOTE.  Young people will stand him up at the alter.  They ALWAYS do.  They're too busy, they forget, they don't think voting is important, yada, yada, yada.   No democrat can win without the votes of people over 60.  Obama can kiss Florida goodbye, and PA, and Ohio, and and and and.....................

    Why are they acting so strangely? (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by wasabi on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:43:51 PM EST
    I don't understand why the Obama camp is acting so strangely.  Obama seems to struggle lately, like all the fun has gone out of the campaign.  Are the internal polls bad or is there something negative that is going to come out soon?  I just don't get it.  It can't be due to Wright alone.

    Magic (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by nellre on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:12:19 PM EST
    Magic has a way of evaporating when exposed to the light.

    [ Parent ]
    The media hasn't given them (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by eleanora on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:28:57 PM EST
    the full "Gather round and see the weak, unpatriotic Democrat!" treatment before this week. Got to be startling when you're used to being cooed over and admired for everything you do. Kerry seemed unnerved by it too, and he hadn't gotten the kind of good press Obama's had.

    [ Parent ]
    Perhaps you could be more (1.00 / 7) (#97)
    by kevenseven on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:22:19 PM EST
    explicit in what you mean by "strange"?

    He is doing his damnedest to not use cheap personal attacks on Clinton, despite the fact that he could sink her in a weekend if he tried.

    They have decided that the number of frothing Clintonistas that would be lost in a blatantly negative attack would be too much of a loss going into the General, and Obama, unlike Clinton, still has a plan to be elected this year.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, puh-leeze (5.00 / 4) (#128)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:44:04 PM EST
    Smearing the Clintons as racist isn't "blatantly negative"?

    [ Parent ]
    It is weird... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:55:11 PM EST
    ...they aren't pivoting at all.

    [ Parent ]
    Why am I thinking "Fred Picker"? (none / 0) (#123)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:41:30 PM EST
    Could it be that there's more to Obama feeling tired and bored than the stresses of the campaign trail? I'm getting vague feelings about a coming implosion. Because that's going to be the only way to finish him off, with the votes so close. With Hillary, her baggage is known, so the implosion is a lot harder to create....


    [ Parent ]
    Alright, I'll bite... (none / 0) (#144)
    by wasabi on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:51:04 PM EST
    Please fill me in on Fred Picker.  I have no idea what you are talking about, but I've heard him referenced before (by you, I might add!).

    What gives?  Whos he?

    [ Parent ]

    saying 'hope' 'unity' 'change' isn't (none / 0) (#165)
    by LHinSeattle on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:18:18 AM EST
    working as well as it used to. Maybe not a whole lot else to say?

    [ Parent ]
    it was an inappropriate comment (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:29:40 PM EST
    especially from the pulpit!

    Josey...You would do well to not even bother (none / 0) (#133)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:45:37 PM EST
    to respond to kevenseven, a well-known Hillary basher from Huffpo, for one.

    [ Parent ]
    Our party... (5.00 / 5) (#124)
    by kredwyn on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:41:58 PM EST
    The difference between Obama negatives and HRC negatives is what? Last I checked it was 2 or 3 points.

    Ultimately, the party does not belong specifically to either you or me. It is our party--as in it belongs to many of us.

    As for "Not my fault America cannot tolerate the woman"? Meh...what have you done to help shift the frame re: that tolerance?

    Instead of sloughing it off as "not my fault," it behooves us all to work to shift that frame so that more tolerance of our differences is possible.

    But "not my fault" is a whole lot easier to hide behind...isn't it?

    You wanna talk about whining? (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:44:53 PM EST
    I won't bother bringing up ALL the cry-babies after the ABC debate in Pennsylvania?  And why are you heaving upon yourself about "not my fault"crap?  Not everyone hates Hillary Clinton.  Maybe in your insular world yes.

    Reviled is a pretty strong word. Judging by your words and tone you seem deftly afraid of Hillary Clinton.  Just like it's not your fault about Hillary's place in the political spectrum, it's no one's fault that YOUR anger is so unsubstantiated.  Yes, she can be so reviled for wanting UHC, balanced budgets and an economy that works for everyone.  Damn that Hillary....I would say God d*** but that's Obama's campaign mantra.


    Young people are at a disadvantage ... (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by dwmorris on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:47:39 PM EST
    They haven't had the benefit of hearing candidates use the same rhetoric for 5, 10, or more election cycles.  Except for incumbents, they all promise change.  Everyone, including George Bush (the lesser), campaigns on the promise that they will work across the aisle to finally fix the country's problems.  So it's no surprise that older voters are a bit cynical listening to Obama.  He's definitely a rock star that serves it up better than ANY of his predecessors ... but it's still the same old swill.

    Two Obama tactical errors. (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:49:31 PM EST
    Obama made the grave political mistakes.  

    1.  In an effort to add new Democratic voters, he took the base for granted, when there was no need to do that.  He even took to bashing them.  You can add without excluding.
    2.  He believed his own mythology.  Therefore, he started to look elite and arrogant, to those beyond us who never believed his mythology.  


    The Meme That America Can't Tolerate That Woman (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:49:34 PM EST
    is a delusion that you would like to believe. Obama's negatives are within 2 - 3% of Hillary's. And he managed drop to this level in less than 1 year. A few more weeks of exposing all of Obama's good pals and Obama's negatives will be lower than Bush's.

    She, not Obama, has received the most votes from Democratic voters. She, not Obama, garners the necessary EVs to beat McCain. She, not Obama, can defeat McCain in MO even though we have a sizable AA community.

    Obama is the candidate who is damaging the Democratic Party.

    Getting back on topic (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:50:43 PM EST
    (don't give him attn)

    Another aspect of Obama losing the senior vote is the way he threw his "typical" grandmother under the bus.  Somewhere there are seniors, who happen to be white and grandmothers, who, may have an ungrateful grandchild out there.  They may see some unredeeming element of them in Obama.

    Just speculation but you never know....

    KevinSeven (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:04:45 AM EST
    is suspended for repeated violations of this site's comment policy. If he comes back, he must stop the insults and name-calling and post no more than 6 comments in a 24 hour period.

    I noticed (none / 0) (#162)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:16:46 AM EST
    some of my comments were deleted.  I apologize if I did anything wrong.  I was trying to appeal to him and asked him to calm down.

    [ Parent ]
    no you did nothing wrong (none / 0) (#168)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:24:33 AM EST
    they were good replies. But since I deleted the comments you were replying to, no one would have known what you were referring to. So they went down the rabbit hole too.

    [ Parent ]
    Whew! (none / 0) (#169)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:26:35 AM EST
    I was getting worried there for a minute.  Thanks Jeralyn!  

    [ Parent ]
    if you delete a comment (none / 0) (#184)
    by DaveOinSF on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:15:16 AM EST
    any way you can leave an empty box as opposed to disappearing the comment altogether?  It gets confusing when you read a comment that sounds like a reply and aren't really sure what the comment is responding to.

    [ Parent ]
    sen. obama is a boomer. (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by cpinva on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:26:59 AM EST
    where this myth that he is of a "new" generation got started escapes me.

    the wwII generation took over in 1960, with the election of JFK. with the exception of carter, all those that followed, through bush sr. came of age in the 40's, most being vets of the war. that was roughly a 30 year span.

    the wwI generation also covered a roughly 30 year span, ending with eisenhower.

    bill clinton was the first official baby boomer president, bush the second. if the past is prologue, the boomers have another 3 presidents to go, before transitioning to "gen x" or y or z or whatever. the boomer gen. represents the vietnam era i suppose.

    frankly, sen. obama is the tail end of the boomer generation, lacking the sagacity and experience of the earliest members, of which sen. clinton is one.

    Not my fault America cannot tolerate the woman.  Not my fault that her laugh is grating and unnatural.   But I sure don't want my party to nominate a person whose negatives challenge Bush's.

    not my fault that you lack the capacity for original thought, and insist on recycling right-wing talking points. of course, as with the right-wingers, you fail to provide any empirical data to support your assertions.

    Troll ID trick (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:36:03 AM EST
    I figured how not to get caught in the vortex, I click on the name and see how many posts the person had here on TL.  If it's less than say 60 and all have been really recent and of the same tone, I do my best to not respond.  I really, really try to not respond.  Sometimes I get caught.  

    Best Policy (none / 0) (#181)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:12:10 AM EST
    Don't feed the trolls. And if someone is spamming comments trying to dominate the thread and insulting other commenters or name-calling, send me an email so I know and can delete the comments and ban the commenter. Thanks.

    [ Parent ]
    Someone in Orangistan put (4.66 / 3) (#6)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:50:34 PM EST
    down the Koolaid, and wrote that it is over
    for Obama.


    well, he didn't put down all the kool aid (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by angie on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:58:55 PM EST
    because he's blaming it all on Hillary (working in concert with the GOP, of course!).

    [ Parent ]
    That's koolaid with a IACF chaser! (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:59:54 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Actually, some of the posters (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:22:16 PM EST
    are defending Hillary and saying Obama brought it on himself. Apparently, some sense is starting to creep in over the Kool-Aid influence. Some are vowing to vote for McCain if Hillary gets the nomination. Others are berating the McCain voters. It's fun to watch them melt down, though. That diarist is a bit of a concern troll. Always worrying that the Dems are going to lose. Probably a paid poster for the GOP. Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    I think their ranks (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:24:08 PM EST
    will shrink in the coming weeks.  As the kids become disillusioned with their once Iron Candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    There was a great take down of (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:30:37 PM EST
    Granny Doc in her diary today.

    "The questions Wright raises, the history he uncovers, the religion he represents will only be offensive to the narrow, cold, practitioners of European Colonial theology."

    Um, what?  "Only offensive to the narrow, cold practitioners of European Colonial theology'?  How patently insulting and arrogant!  Speak for yourself, and only for yourself, my friend.

    If you find Reverend Wright's brand of "christianity" your cup of tea, then enjoy it.  But you undercut your argument by dismissing all other western practitioners (and I assume non-practitioners, as I am) as being a sorry and corrupted lot. But let's thank God YOU made it out unscathed, a pristine vessel, just waiting to receive the loving and timeless wisdom of Dr. Jeremiah.

    and

    f you are only speaking for yourself, then why do you suggest that somehow you know the real reason why a whole swath of people you don't even know would be offended by his words?  Who are you to characterize the visceral, negative response many people have had to what he has said and dismiss it by saying those offended are "narrow and cold practitioners" of a religion you don't seem to have much respect for?

    If you have the nerve to say such a thing you should have the nerve to answer for making such a sweeping and condescending declaration.

    Take all the comfort in Wright's "rightness" that you want, but he doesn't need to be right right now, he needs to shut the hell up.  He is playing a dangerous game, greatly damaging Obama's chances to beat McCain in the fall.  While people on Kos wax rhapsodic about Wright's "real meaning" and his "brilliance" the narrative against him, and by extension, Obama, is hardening.  Wright may play well on the college campus or in the coffee house, but he is killing Obama's chances in the General.



    [ Parent ]
    There was a poster here last night (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:39:59 PM EST
    who needed to read this.  Also suffered from arrogance extremis.  Good find; thanks.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow. (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:50:29 PM EST
    Who wrote that?  (I've been suspicious for a while that Grannydoc is a plant of some kind, so glad to see this comment.)

    FWIW, Rev. Eugene Rivers, an influential black preacher in Boston, was on Matthews today and was pretty incensed that Wright is saying that criticism of him is just criticism of the entire "black church."  He says Rev. Wright's style is one style within the black religious community, but it's not his style or anywhere near everyone's style, and he resents Wright basically trying to tell the world that "everybody does it."

    [ Parent ]

    She went off the rails months ago. (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by hitchhiker on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:01:43 AM EST
    In a vehement diary about the Clintons' racism.  It was the strangest thing I ever read, and the strangest part is that she clearly was quivering with outrage--over nothing.  It sat on top of the rec list with many heartfelt expressions of gratitude in the comments.  Truly bizarre.

    [ Parent ]
    as predicted by posters here (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by miguelito on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:00:40 PM EST
    when the end comes for Obama, it will be Clinton's fault.  

    [ Parent ]
    Still Sipping Pretty Hard (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by cdalygo on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:01:22 PM EST
    Kind of a like a kid's sippy cup.

    Did you notice that he had to blame her for it? Further the author emphasized how she had derailed an African American's presidency.

    That's not good. If his candidacy ends up failing prior to November, his more strident supporters will always insist it was her fault. Let's hope there is enough data out there - with the Net - to prevent that urban legend from sprouting.

    [ Parent ]

    her coalition (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by miguelito on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:03:46 PM EST
    can beat McCain without Obama's 'most strident' supporters.  His coalition... does he still have one?

    [ Parent ]
    his coalition (4.50 / 4) (#65)
    by daryl herbert on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:47:17 PM EST
    Will be voting for Sen. McCain.

    According to the DKos poll, 68% so far say they won't vote for Hillary in the GE.  ("Hell no!")

    According to the blogger UpstateDem who posted the item, she will "join whoever I have to" to prevent Clinton from getting the presidency.  Obviously, that means voting for John McCain (twice as effective as staying home, because she can cancel out a Clinton-supporter's vote).

    Who knew that the DailyKos was capable of bipartisanship?

    [ Parent ]

    Well Obama Is The Bipartisan Candidate (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:04:18 PM EST
    and Hillary Hate has been the main focus for a while now. Kos can either walk these people back or become a Republican blog.

    [ Parent ]
    DKos is not that powerful. (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by hitchhiker on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:53:47 PM EST
    Just fervent.  There are maybe a couple of hundred people over there writing most of the comments, and they're not the brightest, most rational bulbs on the Christmas tree.  Many of the front-pagers are even worse.

    [ Parent ]
    Eh (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:04:42 PM EST
    Considering if he falls it will all be about Wright, other than hard-core kool-aid sippers of which the African American community as a whole is not, it will only be Kossacks and hardliners that will take this view. The black community knows that Clinton had nothing to do with this. Unlike certain blog commenters, most people do not listen to BS racism calls by people like Markos etc.

    [ Parent ]
    Too late (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:51:36 PM EST
    That narrative was predetermined.  It is already gospel among the Obamabots.

    [ Parent ]
    Well... (1.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:24:20 PM EST
    ...it will be partially her fault, that's indisputable.

    Now, she has the right to stay in, but it's caused a division that perhaps could've been avoided if she'd gotten out and thrown her support behind him.

    Again, she has every right to stay in and try to win, but to act like the past month or so will have no consequences is ridiculous.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah, (5.00 / 6) (#41)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:29:11 PM EST
    he had every right to stay in too, even with his baggage ala Wright, etc..  Now he's been so divisive, with surrogates like Clyburn(sp) fueling race hate, etc.  If he'd just gotten out, there wouldn't have been such division.


    [ Parent ]
    I don't know if you think you got a punch in there (3.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:31:22 PM EST
    ...but yes, that's actually exactly my point.

    [ Parent ]
    It's a point (5.00 / 6) (#58)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:43:00 PM EST
    but a pretty pointless point.  Like saying there would no more auto collisions if all the autos but one just got off the road . . . to leeeeve the poor car aloooooone.

    [ Parent ]
    True enough... (none / 0) (#62)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:46:06 PM EST
    ...but there are few no-fault two car collisions. And the person was talking about "fault." So.

    [ Parent ]
    This is so funny.... (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by alexei on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:17:11 PM EST
    Clinton is at fault because she continues in the race and Obama's Pastor throws him under the bus.  Good thing she did stay in the race or it would have been McCain's fault for daring to run when Obama's Pastor threw him under the bus.

    [ Parent ]
    Wright (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Salo on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:38:26 PM EST
    makes Swiftboating look old school.  A new verb for What he has wrought is needed.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? How is it her fault? (5.00 / 8) (#46)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:31:36 PM EST
    Because she didn't do what she was told and drop out when Obama wanted her to? You cannot be serious. This is a dangerously laughable narrative. But feel free to express it.  LOL.  Yes, it's her fault because she didn't drop out in time for Wright to implode in Obama's face and completely sink the Dems in November.

    [ Parent ]
    There's an acronym that covers this... (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:35:38 PM EST
    Wait, it'll come to me...

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary's only "fault" if Obama is out (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by angie on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:18:28 PM EST
    is in her winning NH, CA, NJ, NY, OH & PA (and FL while we are at it). How terrible of her -- she should have just conceded after Iowa.

    [ Parent ]
    The word "fault" here is perjorative... (3.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:43:53 PM EST
    ...and I think that is leading people to believe that I think Hillary should've dropped out. That's not what I think, as made clear by my above responses, here, tonight, elsewhere, before. She should stay in as long as she wants. She should win if she can. Competition trumps short-term unity.

    But if your interest is in unity for unity's sake then the lack of unity is her "fault" once he started to win/get far ahead in the pledged delegate count, and his "fault" before that.

    [ Parent ]

    Unity for unity's sake (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by angie on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:55:46 PM EST
    wtf does that mean? Is that one of those riddles like "we are the ones we've been waiting for" 'cause personally being Beckett girl myself, I've always thought we were waiting for godot. Unity for unity's sake sounds kind of superficial to me.

    [ Parent ]
    Unity without a well-defined goal (5.00 / 3) (#171)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:29:30 AM EST
    is WORTHLESS.  People can in fact unite to commit a crime or to do some other harm.

    Mature minds know this.  Only those who are still practically lactating (no offense to the one who chose this as a handle) fall for this, much like the children who innocently/mindlessly? followed the Pied Piper to their regret.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm very clearly... (none / 0) (#153)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:58:55 PM EST
    ...saying that unity for unity's sake is not commendable. I MEANT it to sound superficial. I've stated, now maybe FOUR times, that competition is better than unity.

    [ Parent ]
    And how will it (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by Serene1 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:16:52 AM EST
    "partially" be her fault.

    Last I checked, the nomination was selection based on competition not selection based on coronation.

    Also Hillary if she wins the nomination would have won it against a hostile media, hostile liberal establishment, hostile obama supporters and with much less money than Obama. All the above mentioned groups tried their level best to swift boat her with various and at some times pure conjectured allegations. She along with her supporters still soldiered on.

    Comparitively Obama had to face an extremely friendly media, a v.v. accommodating DNC establishment, a loyal following of the top liberal elites and massive war chest. Wright, Ayers, Cling comment and other sundries were not Hillary's creations but were Obama's own skeletons from his closet.

    And if now Kossaks and other Obama supporters still want to play the Blame Hillary game all I can say is Grow Up.

    [ Parent ]

    But more his fault, right? (4.66 / 6) (#47)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:32:05 PM EST
    Because while Obama's been leading the last month or so, Clinton certainly had a bigger lead in all the polls before the election even started.  Shouldn't he have dropped out then?

    If Clinton were developing novel lines of attack against Obama, attacks that wouldn't be made by the Republicans in November (eg, if she were driving him far to the left) her campaign might deserve some degree of criticism.  But she isn't.  All she's doing is benefiting from his own goof-ups ("clinging to guns and religion") and media coverage.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah. Exactly. (5.00 / 6) (#50)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:35:22 PM EST
    He continues to shoot himself in the foot and Hillary has simply stayed  out of his way while he does so and suddenly it can be blamed on her? Because she didn't drop out?? LOL. This is the very reason that I'm so glad that she DIDN'T drop out. Because now we know before the GE and not when it's Obama v. McCain and way too late to do anything about it.

    [ Parent ]
    So yeah, more his fault... (2.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:57:30 PM EST
    ...whatever. It's a pointless game, but if we're talking about a breakdown in unity being a problem then competitors to unity, in whatever timeframe you want, are going to be blamed. The key is to view competition as trumping unity, at least for the short-term.

    [ Parent ]
    Unity doesn't mean (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by eleanora on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:12:47 PM EST
    that one competitor is required to get out of the way before the race is finished. Unity means we all pull together after the nomination is won. What on earth? Do you think John McCain is going to get out of the way if Obama gets far enough  ahead in the polls next fall?

    Nope, he's going to run hard and give it all he's got, not just drop out so Obama can win. That line of talk makes it sound like you have no faith in your candidate--he's not my guy, but I think he wants to win this thing, not have it handed to him.

    [ Parent ]

    Huh? (3.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:37:26 PM EST
    Right, I agree. Competition is more important than unity, it trumps unity. That's exactly what I said. Your antagonistic response is confusing.

    [ Parent ]
    Not antagonistic, (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by eleanora on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:59:21 PM EST
    just befuzzled. And I reread the thread twice to try to understand. What I got is: you're blaming Hillary for the Democrats not having unity, except you support her staying in because it's a competition, but still she should have dropped out and thrown her support to Obama once he got ahead or maybe he should have dropped out first? Guess it's time for bed, because this is giving me the giggles :)

    [ Parent ]
    Almost. (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Addison on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:03:35 AM EST
    This:

    But still she should have dropped out and thrown her support to Obama once he got ahead or maybe he should have dropped out first
    is not correct. If both of them stupidly cared about unity for unity's sake, or wanted to avoid being at fault for a lack of unity, they should've dropped out at the points you list. However, unity isn't more important than competition, so they were both right to fight, even if it meant they demolished party unity for a short while.

    [ Parent ]
    We probably agree! (none / 0) (#160)
    by eleanora on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:11:20 AM EST
    I can't be sure, but it looks like it :DDD

    This whole conversation reminds me of Stephen Wright somehow. "I put instant coffee in the microwave and I almost went back in time." 'Night :)

    [ Parent ]

    Do you know what Unity means? (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:45:22 PM EST
    And if Obama was "the One" to bring about "change and unity", he would already have won this Primary, right? After all, he is the one he has been waiting for, not Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (none / 0) (#143)
    by Addison on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:50:55 PM EST
    Competition trumps unity. I've said that maybe three times now. Hillary should stay in and try to win. Who and/or what are you responding to?

    [ Parent ]
    I'm a little shocked (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by Lil on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:02:15 PM EST
    that they are giving up so easily. I mean HCS's been kicked around for months and she's still hanging in there. Obama has a bad week, maybe two and they are saying it is over...I don't get that. Can anyone explain that?

    [ Parent ]
    Did you take the poll? (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:55:35 PM EST
    Considering, the numbers were not that bad for Hillary over there. Ha. Probably all of us chiming in with out votes.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow. (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by lilburro on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:42:00 PM EST
    It's all Hillary's fault, except this diary comes on the heels of the Wright weekend from h3ll for some reason.  It's all Hillary's fault?  If people at Kos aren't able to see the problems Wright is on one hand fighting and on another hand creating more clearly, their credibility is completely shot and their ability to help choose a nominee useless.

    [ Parent ]