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Obama: What's Not To Like?

Vast Left at Corrente: Obama's smart and charismatic and he voted against the war. Right?

Let's talk about the reasons to like him -- and more importantly, reasons he should be the Democratic nominee for President. Or not.

Update: (different topic) Check out Elizabeth Edwards op-ed in today's New York Times: Bowling 1, Health Care 0. It's about the media's shallow coverage of the presidential race.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Something I like about him (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:34:13 AM EST
    He has good policies--he and Clinton don't differ on too much there, really, and I also like the fact that he is bringing in a ton of first-time voters and young, college-age voters. I know some think that he's bringing them in only for the Party of Obama, but Idunno. Even if he is, I'd say it's better to be activist in some way and at least vote, than sit back apathetically and not vote at all.

    Plus, he and Senator Clinton have brought a neat dimension to the race. This is the most unique nomination process I think the Democrats have ever experienced, and I love how Obama baffles all of my Poly Sci professors by still being in the race. :P One actuaally went on a long rant about how Obama was destroying conventional methods for researching and predicting things in Political Science, and how all the focusing on broader themes instead of specifics angered him. I never liked him anyways, so that made me pretty happy.

    The differences in policy are huge. (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:10:40 PM EST
    I do not subscribe to the belief that Obama and Hillary have the same policies. Not at all. Their healthcare policies are miles apart, their foreign policies as well (well, I KNOW what HRC's policies, Obama has given basically nothing), their views on women's rights and abortions differ (again Obama I think would do NOTHING to advance women's rights in America).  And I can't stand his pandering to Republicans.   Even the few converts. I don't want a Republican lite. I want a Democrat. That's Hillary, not Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    I want Obama (2.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:37:35 PM EST
    Because he royally irritates my Policial Science professors. :P

    [ Parent ]
    I want Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Josey on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:54:06 PM EST
    because I want a Dem president in November!


    [ Parent ]
    you can drive a truck through the difference in (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:01:09 PM EST
    clean energy policy.

    At first I thought he would just pass her bills, so his Republican energy policy hidden behind his global warming talk didn't bother me, but I see now how stubbornly her clings to his Libertarian/Republican 'just kill healthcare' policy, and I think he will likewise cling to his ethanol, nukes and 'clean coal' policy the same way.  I think he is a puppet of Republican policy thinktanks, thats why the media is pushing him as the least worst Democrat.

    So I fear for our country, and the planet.

    [ Parent ]

    On Fox Today, He Said The Republicans Had (5.00 / 4) (#150)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:54:42 PM EST
    the best ideas on government regulations. A bit scary don't you think?

    [ Parent ]
    yep (5.00 / 5) (#152)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:03:00 PM EST
    whats scary is the inability to see that now: of all times, after 8 years of fascist incompetence, is NOT the time to suck up to Republicans.

    He has confuddled Democrats. This could have been an easy win for Democrats on Democratic policy.

    I can perfectly well understand Gore not wanting to get in the race now. By now his sighs would be shaking the universe, and his wrong earth tones?

    Axcelrod is running a terrific campaign, only if he wanted to hand the WH keys to Republicans this year.

    [ Parent ]

    Aw come on.... (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:06:57 PM EST
    ...he was just being polite.

    </snark>

    [ Parent ]

    I would ... (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:36:45 AM EST
    have a problem with Obama as our president, not that I approve of McCain either. However, the longer this campaign goes, the more his argument or explanations about how he sees the state of the nation seems very clever or subtle on the surface but is actually flawed, misleading, or intended to deceive the voters as to who he really is or what he really stands for.
    His interview in Fox today failed to erase this perception that I at least have come to hold.

    Obama (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Chimster on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:13:42 PM EST
    has not been able to unite his own Democratic party. Regardless of whether he is being unfairly attacked or not, if he can not unite us, who can we trust him to unite the country.

    [ Parent ]
    His supporters seem to want to unite with ... (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Cassius Chaerea on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:22:36 PM EST
    anyone but other Democrats.

    [ Parent ]
    His Supporters Bother Me Quite A Bit (5.00 / 6) (#153)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:03:06 PM EST
    I don't think it is healthy to have a sizable percentage of the popular willing to sacrifice previously held beliefs to rationalize the behavior of their hero. Also, Tavis Smiley received death threats and his family was harassed for mildly criticizing Obama on air. He had to leave his job on one radio station due to the continued abuse from Obama supporters.

    Didn't we have enough of this type of behavior during Bush's reign? I don't want to see it repeated even if the president is a Dem.

    [ Parent ]

    Been Doing A Lousy Job Proofreading The (none / 0) (#189)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:09:02 PM EST
    couple of days.

     Should read:

    I don't think it is healthy to have a sizable percentage of the population willing to sacrifice previously held beliefs to rationalize the behavior of their hero.

    [ Parent ]

    He's not interested in uniting Democrats (5.00 / 4) (#147)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:41:57 PM EST
    Otherwise he wouldn't be trying to destroy Bill Clinton's achievements. He has lumped Mr. Clinton with Bush Sr and said their policies were destructive to America!

    give me a f*^% break. The man praises Reagan and puts down the best president of my lifetime? and this is a Democrat? mmmm, please xplain.

    [ Parent ]

    There Is Nothing To Explain...Obama Is Business (none / 0) (#185)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:58:42 PM EST
    as usual.  Not to mention an empty suit, willing to do or say anything he needs to in order to make himself look good.  People had better wake up soon.  There does seem to be some buyer's remorse out there now though.

    [ Parent ]
    Howard Dean (none / 0) (#98)
    by chrisvee on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:22:58 PM EST
    Howard Dean made an interesting comment on the morning shows today. He said that it's up to the loser to unite the party and then he cited examples from his own experience after losing to Kerry.  This sounds like the start of the 'if we lose in the GE, it's Hillary's fault' meme.

    [ Parent ]
    "it's up to the loser to unite"?! (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:07:48 PM EST
    wow. well, I guess it does kinda make sense since Hillary has been the one saying all along she would fight to get the party united and in the WH. On the flip side though, if it's Obama the Uniter as the nom, wouldn't that just rip the curtain open on who he really is on the national stage?

    And then there's the issue of a bunch of ticked off women watching a qualified woman helping and unqualified man get a job that she should be running for. Yeah, that'll sit well.

    [ Parent ]

    Other than not accepting the (1.00 / 1) (#190)
    by caseynm on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:10:54 PM EST
    "Hillary is inevitable" meme, how has Obama "split the party?"

    Maybe if Hillary had run an intelligent campaign and planned on having to run after March 5, this wouldn't be happening.

    Maybe if Hillary had said, "Of course Obama is not a Muslim."  

    Maybe if Hillary had said, "Well Bill and I invited Reverend Wright into the White House to help us through our marriage difficulties, and he's a decent man."

    Maybe if Hillary had said, "Well, Barack merely shared a committee with Ayers, and of course Bill PARDONED 2 former Weathermen because that was all back in the '60s and we needed healing, for heaven's sake."

    Maybe if Hillary had said, "Of course blue collar workers in smalltown America are bitter at having been ignored and at having suffered huge job losses as a result of NAFTA being pushed through by Bill with my help."

    Put another way, if Hillary had an ounce of integrity, there might not be an issue here.

    But she doesn't.

    [ Parent ]

    If Hillary this, if Hillary that... (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:07:13 PM EST
    what about these ifs?
    If Obama had been a more transparent candidate, maybe he wouldn't be suffering from the slow but patently evident fall out that he is now facing;
    If Obama had accompanied SPECIFICS to his HOPE and YES WE CAN diatribe, the electorate would not be wavering right now to where exactly is the HOPELAND he is trying to lead us to;
    If Obama had not been talking with a fork tongue, example: Let's run a campaign of unity in front of the media but running a trashing character assassination on Clinton in front of the people in words and in deeds (giving middle finger, brushing himself off, or cleaning the sole of his shoes as if they were soiled with dog feces), then we would think he had some integrity and respect for his opponent, he would be a more believable candidate;
    If Obama was not the plagiarist, lier, flip-flopper, and disingenous "I care, I will fight for you (btw, another plagiarism taken right out of Clinton's mouth), we could understand that the nomination should not be "taken away" from him
    If Obama would not be crying, whining, and decrying people (pres. Clinton) whose political trayectory has been hell-bent on bringing about equality to minorities, ESPECIALLY blacks and accusing him of playing race, racial, and racist cards, then the black vote would not be as skewed as it has been and would reflect instead more of a similar margins as Clinton has gotten with women, so who's practicing racism?
    And the list of IFs is endless.... should I continue?

    [ Parent ]
    I see you're a FOX news fan (none / 0) (#210)
    by caseynm on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:02:34 PM EST
    If Obama had not been talking with a fork tongue, example: Let's run a campaign of unity in front of the media but running a trashing character assassination on Clinton in front of the people in words and in deeds (giving middle finger, brushing himself off, or cleaning the sole of his shoes as if they were soiled with dog feces), then we would think he had some integrity and respect for his opponent, he would be a more believable candidate;


    [ Parent ]
    I thought she had nothing to do with the (none / 0) (#192)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:18:03 PM EST
    White House? Isn't that part of the Obama meme? She didn't actually DO anything as First Lady? But NAFTA is her fault right? As well as the pardons.  So I guess all the good stuff she had nothing to do with.  All the negative aspects of Bill's administration---which according to Obama now are basically the entire eight yrs--- that can be blamed on her right?

    So please tell me because I'd like to know...it breaks down as follows:

    Good stuff---she was serving tea.
    Bad stuff---- her hands are all over it.

    Got it.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, since she can't win except (none / 0) (#197)
    by caseynm on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:42:13 PM EST
    by ripping the party apart, I suppose running an honest campaign instead of a slimy one WOULD be campaigning for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, so now she didn't go out campaigning (none / 0) (#200)
    by caseynm on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:48:24 PM EST
    for NAFTA?  Was she for it first and then against it? Or against it first, then for it, then against it again when she started running for president?

    And no, she's not responsible for NAFTA, Bill is. But she's doing her usual lying about her position on it.

    [ Parent ]

    Casey...why're panties all bunched up? (none / 0) (#206)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:14:31 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Well of course (none / 0) (#194)
    by angie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:23:22 PM EST
    Hillary should be campaigning for Obama -- she should even lie for him (the only "shared a committee with Ayers" is a flat out lie -- their relationship goes much deeper; so is Obama's contention that people vote for Hillary because they are racist, xenophobic, gun-toting, bible-thumping hillbillies). So, you are saying that Hillary should lie to help Obama out. Oh, I'm sure you don't see those as lies, because you throw a lie in there yourself -- Hillary did say that "of course Obama isn't a muslim" in that interview you are citing the first two times the question was asked.  But why bother with the truth -- it doesn't help Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Blame it on Clinton! Very good! (none / 0) (#196)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:40:50 PM EST
    She did say he wasn't a Muslim.

    Did they really invite Wright because of their personal problems? Or was it a prayer breakfast with other notable people there? Did Wright actually "help us [them] through our marriage difficulties"? And she got to know him well enough to call him a decent man?

    Why in the heck would Hillary back up Obama's bitter comments. Darlin', He OWNS those remarks and Hillary had NOTHING to do with them.

    Speak of integrity, lol!~

    [ Parent ]

    He owned em, Babe. (none / 0) (#198)
    by caseynm on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:44:23 PM EST
    If you're incapable of understanding their meaning except by lying about them, then you pretty much have found your candidate.

    Oh, did I mention sniper fire?

    [ Parent ]

    So, why should she have to own them also? (none / 0) (#202)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:55:31 PM EST
    and exactly how am I lying about them?!

    you haven't answered the questions regarding Wright . . . .

    [ Parent ]

    Hilarious (none / 0) (#199)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:45:09 PM EST
    Put another way, if Hillary had an ounce of integrity, there might not be an issue here.

    But she doesn't.

    Your argument has zero integrity, because it is one sided. Gee what does that say about your integrity?  Quite a bit.


    [ Parent ]

    If Hillary this, if Hillary that... (none / 0) (#205)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:08:12 PM EST
    what about these ifs?
    If Obama had been a more transparent candidate, maybe he wouldn't be suffering from the slow but patently evident fall out that he is now facing;
    If Obama had accompanied SPECIFICS to his HOPE and YES WE CAN diatribe, the electorate would not be wavering right now to where exactly is the HOPELAND he is trying to lead us to;
    If Obama had not been talking with a fork tongue, example: Let's run a campaign of unity in front of the media but running a trashing character assassination on Clinton in front of the people in words and in deeds (giving middle finger, brushing himself off, or cleaning the sole of his shoes as if they were soiled with dog feces), then we would think he had some integrity and respect for his opponent, he would be a more believable candidate;
    If Obama was not the plagiarist, lier, flip-flopper, and disingenous "I care, I will fight for you (btw, another plagiarism taken right out of Clinton's mouth), we could understand that the nomination should not be "taken away" from him
    If Obama would not be crying, whining, and decrying people (pres. Clinton) whose political trayectory has been hell-bent on bringing about equality to minorities, ESPECIALLY blacks and accusing him of playing race, racial, and racist cards, then the black vote would not be as skewed as it has been and would reflect instead more of a similar margins as Clinton has gotten with women, so who's practicing racism?
    And the list of IFs is endless.... should I continue?

    [ Parent ]
    Well, (none / 0) (#216)
    by cmugirl on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:37:05 AM EST
    Since she did twice tell Steve Kroft that Obama was  not a Muslim, and

    Since Wright was at the WH for a prayer breakfast (with a few hundred other ministers, priests, rabbis, and clerics, etc.), not for marriage , counseling, and

    Since Hillary didn't have anything to do with pardons, and since the two people you mention weren't pardoned, but had their sentences commuted AFTER they had served time and were sorry, and

    Since David Gergen, who was actually in the room, said Hillary was against NAFTA, then,

    I don't understand what the heck you are talking about.

    [ Parent ]

    Good vibe from Dean? (none / 0) (#105)
    by Chimster on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:33:45 PM EST
    I still got a good vibe from Dean when I watched him talk to Russert. I think he was being as fair as he could be given the current situation. Perhaps I'm spinning it too positively, but i thought he was addressing Obama supporters when he said that it's up to the loser to unite the party.

    [ Parent ]
    When Obama was first derided by the (none / 0) (#195)
    by hairspray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:38:02 PM EST
    AA community I was perplexed.  But he hasn't had the solid democratic experience that so many of his elders have had. Maybe that isn't bad, but I see him more as an independent than as a true Democrat.  The idea that he is just now waking up to blue collar working class voters has to be a clue. they and the union movement has been at the heart of Democratic politics and they are not going away anytime soon.

    [ Parent ]
    Lets not: (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Mrwirez on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:38:33 AM EST
    I won't pick a loser. He would be a pinata for the republicans. Nothing would get passed. I am actually worried about down ticket in the very states he won, such as Missouri. If it were winner take all, this would be over by now.

    Great Practice (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:42:18 AM EST
    I did this a bit yesterday.  I tried softening my attitudes and looking at the good points.  I can do that now after PA.  :)

    I think Obama COULD be simply unprepared emotionally for a long, hard race where he's under the microscope.  However, as president, he'd have more control over the agenda.  His petulance, which is so obvious now, would not be such a big factor if he had position power.

    On the con side?  He'd be less transparent than he promises.  That one is now a given.

    Obama will NOT be one to push policy changes.  He's not even really interested.  Therefore, some of his policy stances that I don't particularly like are probably a non-issue.  He's not interested in specifics.  He won't balk over a more moderate agenda set by Dems.  It could be a blessing that he's not detail-oriented and fairly uninterested in his own platform on various issues.  He'll go with the flow.  That would be preferable to me.  I hated his position on taxes.  NEVER!

    Obama will not be stupid enough to push his radical ideas on the International Front.  He'd get swatted down and humiliated so fast that his head would spin.  The SNL skit recently on how he calls Hillary at 3 AM about foreign policy wasn't far off the mark.  This guy is a placater, so one smack-down will be quite enough.

    Obama will not divide the country racially.  He rarely even campaigns in his AA neighborhoods.  He's got them locked up.  He never made any promises.  So they will be irrelevant once he's elected.  I have no fear that the race divide will continue if he's elected.

    Obama would bring warm and fuzzy to many white liberals who feel guilty over not much.  But....nothing wrong with warm and fuzzy.

    Obama would continue to not add up.  This may not sound like a positive, but it can be.  Therefore, everyone would get to interpret him the way they like best.  That's his chief asset.  He's the blank slate.  Write in your own "what he meant."  People love to guess.  He'd not shake their faith in their own mind-reading abilities.

    Obama would focus on International only.  It will be one long travelogue with photo ops.

    Maybe the country needs 4 years of not much.

    I'm a "fixer."  I prefer a "fixer" right now.

    But....there's something to be said for presidents who do not rock the boat and who just don't do much.  We all need a breather after Bush.

    That's my best shot at why I'd not jump off a ledge.  :)

    The country doesn't need (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:57:36 AM EST
    4 years of not much.  4 years of not much with a Democratic president isn't a good thing at all.  It will just play to the meme that Democrats are wimps.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Wimp (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:01:04 PM EST
    factor has now been discussed and validated.  LOL*  That's the deal, Theresa.  We'll take an AA candidate, provided he's a wimp.  :)

    Not Present
    No paper trail even in Illinois
    Change on policies happening daily
    Sends surrogates to do all dirty work
    Can't be clear in debates
    Policies are regressive, not progressive

    What more information do we need?

    He's definitely a light-weight.

    [ Parent ]

    I absolutely agree (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:14:59 PM EST
    But I have to wonder...why does everyone insist on putting an H in my name!  It happens day in and day out

    Just wondering.

    Teresa

    [ Parent ]

    lol, story of my life, too. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:18:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    mea culpa (none / 0) (#45)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:21:30 PM EST
    My friend, Michele, complains about being Michelle constantly, too.

    Phonetic net bad habits?

    Thanks for pointing it out.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes. If we're going to have four (none / 0) (#79)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:58:32 PM EST
    more years of another bad president, I'd rather it be a Republican.

    [ Parent ]
    And it would be only 4 years (4.00 / 0) (#83)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:03:26 PM EST
    owing to McCain's age.  Of course, there is Stephens' age on SCOTUS -- but working for a stronger Dem Senate could do a lot more on that score than counting on Obama, who was going to vote for Roberts, too, until he had to be told that it wouldn't be politically wise for his own ambitions for the presidency.  And "babies are punishments" for women who sin.  So abstinence is the answer.

    There are no principles that reassure me there.

    [ Parent ]

    Although This Is What All the Nader Voters Said (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by BDB on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    in 2000.  Gore is no different than Bush, we'll wait until next time.  Well, Kerry was worse than Gore, IMO.  And Obama will be worse than Kerry.  At this rate, I figure Democrats will be nominating Mitt Romney in 2016.

    [ Parent ]
    I see so much difference between Gore (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:52:50 PM EST
    and Obama that your well-meaning comment is, sorry, useless.  I want to vote for a real Dem again, as I did for Gore -- and every time before, for decades now.

    [ Parent ]
    We Will Have Someone Like Ben Nelson As Our (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:14:17 PM EST
    nominee next time. The Dem establishment will conclude that Obama lost because he was too liberal. Of course, they will forget that he didn't run as a Democrat at all. Let alone as a liberal or progressive Democrat.  IACF will have to get wear itself out before they come to that brilliant conclusion.

    [ Parent ]
    He is the new Decider (none / 0) (#77)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:55:37 PM EST
    I will listen to him of course, but I am the President.


    [ Parent ]
    About "bringing in a ton... (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:49:09 AM EST
    of new-time voters", so has Senator Clinton, albeit not all young, many disenfranchised voters have made their opinions known through this primary voting process, which is a laudable feat by both candidates.
    What impresses me most, as well as being very proud of us Americans and the voting process is that ALL of the states have had the opportunity to weigh in, something that has not happened in decades, and some which have never had the opportunity to do so, look at Puerto Rico, who would have thought.

    The "D" after his name (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by katiebird on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:50:51 AM EST
    He seems too immature to me.  Those verbal games (where he slips-slides about what he really meant) which at first I assumed was just political parsing seems more like junior high word games to me.  Maybe it's because of the finger/gesture games -- but I'm not impressed by his personal behavior in this campaign.

    A President is more than policies -- he's the leader of our country.

    I have NEVER voted for a Republican.  So, (at this point) if I vote for him, I'll be voting for the "D" after his name.  But I just don't know.

    (shaking my head) I just don't know.

    He (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:59:16 AM EST
    dresses extremely well.  He lectures eloquently.
    He has adorable children. He's from Chicago - I love
    that city. He's an intellectual.

    Also, I don't think he ever planned on winning this election and is surprised he is a contender. I think he was practicing for 2016. And that's a good thing.

    Obama is cool! (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by Josey on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:06:55 PM EST
    He plays basketball!
    He texts!
    He's the media's "New American Idol"!
    YESSS! - let's elect Obama for President!


    [ Parent ]
    He shoots air balls too (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Chimster on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:53:41 PM EST
    Apparently, bowling wasn't his only embarassing PR moment in sports news recently.

    [ Parent ]
    He Might Improve Our Image Internationally (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by santarita on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:01:43 PM EST
    A lot of Europeans seem impressed by the fact that he is not George Bush II.  That to me is his strongest selling point.  Of course, if he starts implementing the foreign policy of his hero the George Bush I or his hero Ronald Reagan, the improved image won't last long.

    I don't know the people you do (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by angie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:17:09 PM EST
    But half my family are Europeans who live in Europe, and they are laughing their a's off that this country is getting ready to replace one unprepared president with another.  But, of course, the European press has done a much better job vetting Obama then the US press has. If we really wanted to restore our image in Europe we would elect Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Europeans are so lucky (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:08:57 PM EST
    they have clever clean energy policy that really works. No wonder they are laughing at us. It sucks, being unable to do anything.

    [ Parent ]
    Europeans (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:35:46 PM EST
    are enchanted with the race issue here.

    That's it.

    Nothing more.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, it won't if he continues (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:17:35 PM EST
    this sort of thing. Bush had to smooth things over with Pakistan after Obama shot off his big mouth last August about bombing Pakistan. I mean, how stupid is he to make statements that make BUSH look like a peacemaker by comparison??!! More of his "foreign policy experience" showing through, I am sure. Gawd, sometimes I think I have slipped into another dimension where everything is ass-backwards!!

    [ Parent ]
    Doubt it, based on recent BBC profile (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:21:35 PM EST
    of Obama.  Pretty devastating.  The Europeans do love their shoot-em-up gangster Chicago stuff from Hollywood, but they see what it means that Obama was a made man -- machine-made.  No U.S. tv network would dare to run it, which is pretty revealing, too.

    [ Parent ]
    My cat (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by miriam on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:38:08 PM EST
    is not George Bush II.  I do not, however, intend to vote for my cat.  

    [ Parent ]
    The main con for me (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by angie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:07:26 PM EST
    is that I honestly still don't know what Obama will do as President -- and I consider myself to be more informed than most -- I've paid close attention to the debates, read about his platforms on his website, etc.  I'm kind of like my cat, I guess -- I don't like surprises -- and to me, Obama in the White House would be full of surprises. That's the main reason I support Hillary -- she tells me exactly what she is going to do, how she is going to pay for it, and wants me to hold her accountable if she doesn't.  I trust her, and I just don't trust Obama.  
    On the pro side for Obama, and maybe this is totally irrelevant, but I do like how I am seeing the younger generation in this country honestly and truly not caring about race -- that gives me hope for this country. However, that hope is diminished in my eyes in that this race as exposed the fact that some horrific sexism still exists in this country -- we haven't quite come a long way, baby.  So, overall, I'll vote for Obama if I have to, but it will be with fear and loathing. And a lot of prayers.

    I forgot to add (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by angie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:19:31 PM EST
    the "if I have to" vote for him is with the provisio  that he demonstrates to me that he is better than McCain -- something I honestly do not believe he has done.

    [ Parent ]
    My Problem...This Younger Generation Is (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:04:58 PM EST
    quick to say you are a racist if you don't want to vote for Obama, or you point out negatives about him...not saying all, but quite a large number do.  And, many of them don't know a damn thing about how the government nor elections work.

    [ Parent ]
    I actually liked him better (5.00 / 7) (#33)
    by pie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:15:11 PM EST
    when I knew less about him.

    I hope he doesn't win the nomination.  I'll be much less emotionally invested in him if he does.  Too ground for me, as that's never been a problem before.  Maybe that will change.

    Long way to November.

    That's (none / 0) (#34)
    by pie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:16:13 PM EST
    new ground.

    [ Parent ]
    This is my big beef with Obama... (5.00 / 10) (#51)
    by lorelynn on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:24:52 PM EST
    Most Democrats, when they are contemplating running for high office, regard the Mighty Wurlitzer with an appropriate respect. And they take a good hard look at their past and they figure out what needs to be cleaned up or resolved. Bill Clinton, for instance, Madison Guaranty feel in 80s. Even though he was bandied about as a presidential candidate in 1988, he didn't run. I'm sure he had lots of reasons for not running, but as a result of that delay, Madison Guaranty's Jim McDougal had been put on trial and acquitted on all counts. Clinton could go into the race with a clean slate. Now, the creation of his war room makes clear that he took seriously the notion that he would have to defend himself aggressively against whatever the GOP came up with.

    Obama didn't do that. He bought that house with Rezko after being electing to the US senate. What kind of moron DEMOCRATIC US senator (and I'm sorry, but it was a really moronic thing to do) considering running for the presidency of the United States, invites a mob affiliate under investigation by a federal prosecutor to do him a personal favor to the tune of $625k? Since the home purchase, Rezko has been indicted for bribing state officials. If he's convicted of bribery, that land purchase is, quite reasonably, going to look like a bribe in the making to an awful lot of American citizens.

    And Wright - why hang on to him? Why not find some quiet African Methodist church with a brilliant Ivy League pastor and maybe use that to move the discussion about race in this country quite a bit further down the road - something Wright, with is plentiful misogynist invective and questionably race boggled bible stories - cannot do.

    I think Obama wants to be Bill Clinton - though he would never, ever admit that. I think he looks at the scandals of the 90s and doesn't understand that Clinton cleaned his issues that could have turned into genuine scandals up before he ran for office. The fact that the GOP went after him anyway, shouldn't be construed as a reason to not get rid of questionable issues in one's past.

    Obama is a guy in desperate need of a big, public loss. His mocking of Clinton's healthcare failure says to me that he doesn't know that people who get stuff done successfully have more failures than people who don't get stuff done. People who do stuff fail from time to time. People who don't do stuff (and Obama has virtually no public accomplishments other than winning campaigns since he left college), never fail.

    Great post, Lorelynn! (none / 0) (#81)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:01:59 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Elizabeth Edwards piece in (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:28:25 PM EST
    the NYTimes was amazing.  And she squarely puts the responsibility on our shoulders to let the press know we want and deserve better coverage of real news.  I have tried to do that during this election cycle.  I am not sure it is making a dent yet, but maybe if we all keep trying.

    As for Obama.  After reading the piece at Corrente I would say I can honestly only think of one thing positive, he probably won't get us into another war and won't get us deeper into Iraq.  I agree with some who think he will do nothing in four years. If he is elected, I hope I am wrong.  I don't think he will get anything on healthcare reform, I don't think he can get us out of Iraq, but like I said, I don't think he will broaden the war either.

    EE made some good points (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by brodie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:02:10 PM EST
    about the MSM focusing too much on fluff 'n' stuff, and I agree with her overall take on the corp media (tempered and moderate though it was), but it does strike me as a bit unrealistic to expect too many voters to be familiar with all the candidates' positions on various major issues.  

    I suspect most people, or the ones who bother to at least semi-inform themselves about the candidates on substance, tend to limit their research to 2-3 candidates at most in a large field of hopefuls.  That's the case with me anyway, and I consider myself an above-avg informed voter.  I looked at the healthcare positions, and the other key issues, of HRC, Obama, and Edwards and that was it.  

    I do wish she'd pivoted at some point and used her major NYT piece to call for well-healed Dem zillionaires to join together to start our own major media outlet, print or tv.  Our side has been complaining mightily about the Repub-coddling MSM since at least the Clinton years, and nothing seems to change.  Time to stop expecting something different out of the media beast.  They will always favor what best protects their conservative corporate interests.  Dems need to wake up and start acting aggressively to get their message out.

    As for Obama, well at least he's not Joe Lieberman, even with his Reagan worshipping (probably no more than pandering to indies and mod Repubs solely to get nominated and elected).  And I doubt, in the unlikely event he's elected, that he would go off and start a major war in the ME like Joe might want or like LBJ did in Nam.  

    I just think it's a huge roll of the dice (to quote my non-racist friend Bill) with neophyte Obama as our nominee.  He's far less electable than the solid if unspectacular, but fully vetted, Hillary.   People however are just beginning to get a sense of Obama and his friends and associates like Wright and Rezko and the Weathermen.  His unfavorables will only get worse.

    [ Parent ]

    The One Thing I Can't Get Over (5.00 / 11) (#76)
    by BDB on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:55:35 PM EST
    is his smears against the Clintons on race.

    Everything else, even his pandering to the right, as destructive as I think that is, I could get over.  Hey, I'm not looking forward to Jimmy Carter 2.0, but it beats George W. Bush 3.0.  

    But the race stuff against the Clintons personally has left me with a lot of anger and if he's the nominee, I don't know what I'm going to do with it.

    that was a political tactic needed because (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:16:05 PM EST
    the Clinton's were held in good esteem in the Black community. So the political tactics don't really make me mad.

    But his Republican energy policy does. Because we have only a few years to switch to a solar, wind, geothermal, wave powered source of electricity or our CO2 emissions will mean certain doom by 2050, beginning with crop failures, food riots, water wars etc.

    [ Parent ]

    Elizabeth (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:57:09 PM EST
    spent her words wisely.

    One of the things you don't hear people (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    talking about much is how critical the first year of the presidency will be, because that is the point at which the entire House will be gearing up for the 2010 mid-terms, as will a big chunk of the Senate.

    With no idea how much of a majority we will have - assuming we hold onto and gain seats in the next Congress - I am especially concerned that an Obama presidency that bogs down in the paralysis of endless compromise will set the stage for a significant setback in that majority, possibly sending us back to the minority.

    In the face of two years of an Obama presidency accompanied by a GOP Congress, I fear that he will end up being much more "their" president than "ours."  Those who worry about the Supreme Court ought to consider how a prone-to-compromise-when-compromise-is-wrong Obama would approach SC nominations that would have to go through a GOP Senate.

    All told, I think that sets the stage for a GOP president in 2012, and worse, could impact all of us for a generation.  Game, set, match.

    Is it possible that Hillary as president could also end up with a GOP Congress in 2010 - sure.  But the difference is that I don't see her rolling over and playing dead, nor do I see her climbing into bed with the GOP and locking the Dems out of the bedroom, so to speak.

    I think we have to look a lot more long-term than just winning the WH; if we aren't considering political style as a means to hold onto the WH AND the Congress, we are in danger of succumbing to the same short-sighted strategy that has infected the Obama camp.

    Obama on Fox now (5.00 / 0) (#99)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:26:14 PM EST
    talking about government regulations and Defense of Marriage Act.

    I know I haven't brought this up for awhile (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:01:24 PM EST
    So I get to do it again.

    Link

    Read the whole thing.

    What's the point.  You have to decide where Obama's coming from.  He's an Ivy Leaguer so I have to assume he knows JFK criticized face to face meetings without preconditions.  Or would he know that?  Perhaps you can get through Harvard and not understand such a basic fact.  I don't know.

    So either he knows better or he gives answers that he knows will please voters, even though he knows he won't govern the way he says.

    Or he really doesn't have any idea what he's talking about half the time.

    This is one of the few times I have criticized the Clinton campaign.  Clinton did not need to unload both barrells and say he was being "naive and irresponsible."  Although I understand where she was coming from, a better thing to have said at that point might be more wonky, but to just say what I said.

    "I don't know why he gave that answer because surely Obama must know that JFK and Ronald Reagan never met with other World Leaders without preconditions.  Or if they did it was a disaster."

    Anyway, that was the first point at which I started to know more about the candidate other than his speech in 2004.

    Since then, I feel he's polarized the party, he's forced onto the party a choice that will create a net negative.  The choice is between the future of the party and the Clinton legacy.

    My dislike of the candidate at that point is of course a product of my loyalty to the Clintons, those are glimpses into the candidate's character.

    But before that, there were glimpses into the candidate's intellect.

    Is he really that smart?

    Does he know what he's doing?

    Just because someone has the right objectives does not mean they will do less harm than someone who has the wrong objectives, but knows what he's doing.

    Is there a reason to like Obama.

    I think he's shown an ability to learn.  He does really give a greaet speech.  But even that, his charisma, the image I have of him from the 2004 convention, the enthusiasm he inspires in the party, it now has an edge about it.  It's taken on an evangelical feel that I think is destructive for the party.


    Eleanora - the flip side: (5.00 / 5) (#138)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:14:20 PM EST
    is a Democrat, and America works better socially and economically for more of our citizens and the rest of the world when a Democrat is in the White House.

    Agreed as to the latter part of your statement, not so sure about the first.

    He has an amazing gift for political rhetoric, using soaring, poetical images in his speeches that resonate with so many people. Imagine how useful that skill would be to a President trying to earn support for a new program or legislation!

    Yes, he can give a good speech.  What I fail to see is the application of those gifts in his current position as United States Senator (or in his community organizing or the state legislature prior to the US Sentate); seems like he's had the opportunity to poetically advocate for the last three years - the question is, why hasn't he?

    He has demonstrated that he can get massive, heartfelt support from widely disparate groups of people, and get them to unite for his cause.

    That you would refer to this as "his" cause is telling - what I have yet to see is interest in gathering that support for "our" cause.

    Obama has motivated young adults to get registered and vote, to work for his campaign, to identify with and advocate for Democrats. When I was in college in the 90s, voting wasn't cool; now it is.

    I agree he has had a great GOTV organization, but not all young adults are voting Obama; and I think his efforts have less to do with the glories of the democratic process and a whole lot to do with garnering votes for himself.  Nothing wrong with that, per se, but let's not make it more than what it is, and let's not discount the effect of young people seeing friends and family going off to war, the dwindling job prospects for young people as motivations for registering to vote.

    I want to see this gorgeous family walk down Pennsylvania Avenue together on Inauguration Day, waving and smiling, representing America to the world for the next eight years. Just the thought of it makes me tear up.

    Hallmark commercials have been known to make me do the same thing, so at best, all I can say is, whatever.

    Michelle Obama would be fascinating to follow as a First Lady. What causes would she take up? How would she balance raising her family, supporting her husband's work, and performing her own duties while still maintaining her identity as a strong, independent woman? I like her and would be a big cheerleader for her every day.

    Call me shallow, but I do not like this woman, and I have no interest in how she balances all the aspects of her life, because millions of women have been engaged in that process for years, with many having a much harder time, and  have been and continue to do it with much less in the way of resources.

     

    Obama has shown us that he takes good advice (like not voting for Roberts), and he'd have the backing of many prominent Democrats to help him navigate his first year in office.

    You assume he only takes the good advice, but his history suggests he also takes some bad advice - or turns away good advice to follow his own judgment.  See Rezko, Ayers, Auchi, etc.

    His policies aren't clear to me, but they're in the right ballpark. And I do feel certain that he'll get us out of Iraq as soon as possible. If he can work with Congress to get positive, Democratic policies into law, America would be a stronger, better country than she is today.

    His policies aren't clear to you?  Why is that - because you don't care to understand them, or because he hasn't addressed them?

    As for his working with Congress, I have less confidence than you do that his interest lies in strong, Democratic policy; he will, on the other hand, be a boon to the Blue Dog Democrats, and will fit right in with the Reid/Pelosi strategy of barking loud and caving quietly.

    Which does not bode well, in my opinion, for the advancement of strong Democratic anything, and a sure recipe for GOP resurgence in the 2010 mid-terms.

    I'm a strong Hillary supporter, (5.00 / 3) (#173)
    by eleanora on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:55:59 PM EST
    donating and volunteering with everything I can to get her elected. The reason I even took a look at Bill in 92 was I had just finished writing a research paper on a preschool parenting project Hillary championed in Arkansas. She'd been fighting for early childhood education, children's rights, and working families for years even then, so I admired her before I ever thought about him. Half of my first presidential vote was really for her.

    Truly, I do know that she's the best candidate and would make the much better president. And I agree with most of your qualifiers to my statements, I was just trying to make a good, positive case.

    I kind of misunderstood the post and though we were supposed to say why a reasonable person might be supporting Senator Obama for president. I'm full of hope that Hillary will pull this nomination off, but if not-- I'm a Democrat. I need to have some reasons to work for his election if he's the nominee, and this was my best shot at coming up with some.  :)

    [ Parent ]

    It Is A Worthy Exercise (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:14:42 PM EST
    For any Democrat who loooves their own choice so much that they lose perspective and turn the other candidate into the Devil. I for one am glad that you misunderstood the tongue in cheek title of this thread, and thought through what it would be like to get behind a nominee who was not your first choice.

    Personally I think both candidates are great compared to McCain. The problems I have with Hillary and Obama are pretty much the same, as are the reasons I think they would both be good presidents.

    BTD's media darling electability theory is pretty convincing, imo, although if Obama is the nominee we will see if his media darling status is a fixture or a temporary bubble.

    [ Parent ]

    squeaky, as someone who was an Edwards (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:38:07 PM EST
    supporter, I had to look long and hard at the choices left to me, so this was never about being so in love with a candidate that I lost perspective.  In fact, I would guess that because I had to evaluate Clinton and Obama, and because I initially resisted supporting Clinton, I think where I am with my support may be more objective than that of those who were "in love" with their candidate from the beginning.

    When I settled on Clinton as the person I felt would best handle the presidency on a number of fronts, I was still of the belief that if Obama got the nomination and won, that would be okay.

    The more I have seen of Obama, the less I believe that (1) he would truly represent my interests, and (2) he is more electable than either Clinton or McCain.  I will not vote for McCain.  I don't see him as an equivalent choice/stand-in for a Democrat I do not believe in, so I am struggling with the idea that, for the first time in years, I might not vote for ANY candidate for president.  I will vote down-ticket Democratic, but I truly am struggling with voting for someone I have come to - yes - loathe.

    Do I think I am less of a Democrat because I may not be willing to swallow my objections to Obama?  No, because I don't see how, ultimately, it helps to strengthen the Democratic party by  voting for someone who waters it down and blurs the lines between what Democrats have always stood for, and what Republicans allegedly represent.  I'm all for "coming together" and all that other frou-frou stuff, but I would prefer that the coming together be done over Democratic positions, and not some neither-here-nor-there mish-mash.  If we believe our ideas are the best, we need leaders who can sell the skeptical and the outright opposed on why they are the best, and do the hard work of bringing those ideas to fruition.

    I think my eyes are wide open; what I fear is that I see too much, not that I don't see enough.

    [ Parent ]

    OK (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:18:16 PM EST
    I just do not see it that way. I voted for Hillary and did not really consider Obama electable. In terms of talent I did think Obama was greater than Hillary and I do think Hillary is a super talent. I just thought Obama would be ready in the future not now.

    All the arguments here against Obama have sent me to find out more about him, and not from his campaign site. Both sites are self serving and hard to get past the first pages.

    My search has led me to believe that Hillary and Obama are nearly identical. The one argument that is cogent, imo, is that Obama is less predictable than Hillary because his record is smaller. That is a plus as well as a minus. A minus because he is more of a risk, not much more imo, as to how progressive he will be as POTUS. The plus is that he has less baggage to get cherrypicked in a smear campaign.   Many Senators et al are unelectable, even if they would make great presidents, because they have a long record that can be cherrypicked in order to smear them. I have no doubt that both candidates will be swiftboated by the GOP, and I do not believe that Hillary is particularly immune because she has gone through it before.

    The experience argument is silly, imo, because we do not know what experience would make for a great president. And it is a poor argument not just because of its baselessness but also that McCain wins that one hands down, if its merits were not so baseless.

    I understand campaigning and rooting for ones candidate, but I do not understand how anyone can say Obama and Hillary are polar opposites or anything close to that. The harsh discounting of either candidate seems based more on emotion than ration, imo. The tipoff for me is that Obama supporters call Hillary Republican lite for instance, and the Hillary supporters call Obama Republican lite, yet neither voice an even slight criticism about their favored candidate.

    As BTD has suggested had we not been so divided about the candidates we could have gotten the candidates to be more specific and bend more to meet progressive agendas, rather than love and hate fests that make no demands from bloggers favorite candidates.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks! :) n/t (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by eleanora on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:46:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Eleanora, I must confess to having been (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:46:35 PM EST
    somewhat puzzled by your original "Why we should like him" comment, because it was always my take that you were a committed Hillary supporter; in fact, I was sort of looking for the part where you admitted to doing an impression of some of the more die-hard Obama supporters.  :)

    I have tried what you attempted, in conversations I have had with myself (and others), and even, early on, when I was trying to choose between Clinton and Obama when Edwards dropped out; it used to be a lot easier than it has been in the last couple of months, and I really just cannot do it any more - because I don't believe in what I'm saying when I do.

    So, I hope there are no hard feelings

    [ Parent ]

    No problem, Anne! :) (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by eleanora on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:40:55 PM EST
    I should have read the links and the few comments there were before I started writing. Took forever to find stuff to say that I could believe in, even with qualifiers. And ITA on how hard it is to hear him talking against the Democratic record and the basic principles we've always stood for. You have to pick a party--standing in the middle of the road means no one can trust you.

    The three candidates were so shiny and hopeful looking together in January--I was already for HRC, but would have happily voted for any of them. Now Edwards is out, and Obama isn't who I hoped he was. But I think our girl is going to pull this one off in the long run and fight for us all the way to the WH if we help her, keep believing, and work hard :)

    [ Parent ]

    Brilliant...You cut right thru the BS (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by mexboy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:33:44 PM EST


    I like this comment (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by pie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:24:05 PM EST
    I read at another blog and think it's sad, but true:

    Of all the talented, motivated black people in the community that have given their hearts and souls for their community, that have sweat blood for the black community ... this poser is the one that gets settled on by the white power elite as The Black Candidate.
     

    In the spirit of eleanora's nice post, (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:44:19 PM EST
    I can also say some things I like about Obama.

    I loved his speech at the 2004 DNC. I loved it so much that it made me both laugh and cry. If he still truly believes in those words, then I really love that about him. I've had my doubts about that since that time, though.

    I think he is smart and also thoughtful at times.

    He seems like a dedicated husband and father.

    He has a good sense of humor.

    He has inspired a lot people to get involved with politics.

    That *was* a great speech! (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by eleanora on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:50:21 PM EST
    Very big-D Democratic, I wish he'd get back to that tone again. I liked your list. :)

    [ Parent ]
    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by pie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:07:21 PM EST
    He has inspired a lot people to get involved with politics.

    so has she, frankly.  :-)

    I'm more concerned about November and the way this plays out.

    I will only vote for Obama if he is 1/2 (3.66 / 3) (#3)
    by Mark Woods on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:33:33 AM EST
    of a ticket with Clinton on the other half.   I am so put off by his attitude and his disgustingly rude follows that I would never willingly give my vote to him at this point, in spite of the fact that I've voted almost straight ticket Democrat all my adult life.

    And now watch the weaseling he does to avoid a real debate -- he's going to make Hillary look ever more like the 'fighter' and he's on the way down if you ask me.

    Hillary will throw him a life rope at some point, you mark my words . . . (why do I sound like my Grandparents?)

    blame his followers and his lack of substance (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by thereyougo on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:00:06 PM EST
    When compared to Hillary, his lack of substance shows in a big way. She's impressed more the more she speaks, because she's on point and polished.

    I'm still waiting to hear the phrase that sways me to Obama.

    His followers don't do him justice. Actually I think they're unraveling his campaign while Mrs. Clinton is hitting her stride and it speaks to her abilities to turn adversity inot opportunity.

    [ Parent ]

    Well that's selfish and irresponsible (1.00 / 0) (#65)
    by dmk47 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:40:23 PM EST
    This is not difficult. Suppose, for every single issue that could affect America over the next four years, your preferences are both Clinton > McCain and Clinton > Obama. There is still not one issue for which you could rationally maintain the overall ranking Clinton > McCain > Obama; hence, on every issue, your only possible ranking of preferences is Clinton > Obama > McCain. Hence, for every single issue a rational Clinton supporter's preference between Obama > McCain. Let's go one stronger, because despite the cocooning nonsense about not knowing Obama's views, there is in fact no issue on which a rational Clinton supporter's preference could be anything other than Obama >>> McCain.

    Now, there is a very strong chance Obama will be the Democratic nominee. If that's the case, your fall vote will either help or hurt Obama's performance. If you vote for him, you'll help him; otherwise you'll hurt him. The only available decision that accords with your own rational preference, as a Clinton supporter, is to vote for Obama.

    You have every right, of course, not to, but no rational basis for doing so. Whingeing about his personal qualities, whingeing about the personal qualities of his supporters, etc., don't qualify as rational bases. Nor does the inevitable suggestion that by pointing out the logical consequence of Clinton supporters' preference structure on the issues conjoined with the fact of the matter about the candidates' views, I'm being patronizing. Suppose I am. Suppose I'm mean and awful. That does not obviate the fact that, as a Clinton supporter, your only available rational choice in an Obama-McCain election is to vote for Obama.

    Let's go further. If the general election is Obama vs. McCain, and McCain wins the difference-making states in the electoral college by a margin ≤ the number of Dem primary Clinton supporters who voted for McCain, and, predictably, what results is thousands more American deaths in escalations of the current wars and new wars, and four more years of rapacious Republican domestic policy, those McCain-voting Clinton supporters will bear responsibility.

    I'm guessing what generates a lot of these kinds of comments is the (illusory, I believe I can prove) uncertainty about the outcome of the Democratic primary. Nevertheless, one possible outcome of the Democratic primary, indeed the most likely outcome, is that Obama will be the nominee.    

    No one has any obligation to like Obama or his supporters. But the beliefs Clinton supporters hold commit them to vote for Obama if he's the nominee. (Likewise, the beliefs Obama supporters hold commit them to vote for Clinton if she's the nominee.)

    Any attitude of a current Clinton supporter on an Obama-McCain election besides "I'll vote for Obama" is simply repugnant.

    [ Parent ]

    Keep it going... (5.00 / 7) (#84)
    by ChrisM on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    You almost hit all the right notes. You only forgot to blackmail us women with Roe v. Wade.

    Otherwise, you had it all: the patronizing (we're not rational), the guilt trip (blood on your hands), and the insulting (repugnant).

    I sure am much more convinced to vote for him now.

    And as was mentioned upthread, Obama can change mind. He did change mine... 1 year ago, I would have voted for him in a heart beat. Not anymore.

    [ Parent ]

    Impeccable reasoning (1.00 / 0) (#100)
    by dmk47 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:28:23 PM EST
    Yes, indeed, given your preference structure on the issues, if you fail to vote for Obama, and McCain defeats him by a margin less than or equal to that provided by the votes of those voting like you, the overturning of Roe v. Wade, more broadly, the installation of abhorrent justices on the Supreme Court for decades, escalations of the current wars, new wars, more rapacious Republican domestic policy --- i.e. the completely foreseeable consequences of a McCain presidency --- will be your responsibility.

    It's completely irrelevant whether you like me, like Obama, like any of his supporters. If, on a scale of being patronizing from 1-100, I/Obama/Obama supporters all register at 100, your rational obligation to vote for Obama doesn't change one bit. Likewise for every single other personal quality of his/mine/his supporters that you don't like.

    The l