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Open Thread

I got nuthin. Time to wait on the voters.

This is an Open Thread.

Update (TL): I'm adding the video of the Shirelles, "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" It's been running through my head all day, as I wondered how many Pennsylvanian's will turn out to make sure Hillary stays in the race.

< The Overwrought Reaction To The Clinton Ad, Part II | North Carolina Debate Scratched >
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    the debate in NC has been cancelled..... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by athyrio on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:56:44 PM EST


    Really?? (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:57:20 PM EST
    Obama scared??

    Parent
    I got me a question... (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by lookoverthere on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:59:19 PM EST
    Isn't demanding someone drop out of a pres race for fear it will split a political party fearmongering?

    I think we'll have waffles for dinner.

    Parent

    My anger with Obama knows no bounds (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by ccpup on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:09:23 PM EST
    right now.  I've been craving waffles since his Foreign Policy Question dodge earlier today and I place the blame squarely at his shiny wingtips.  Well, the one not in his mouth, I mean.

    Mmmmmmm ... waffles.

    Perhaps I've underestimated his mind powers after all?  

    But I ain't drinkin' no Kool-Aid!  Unless it's grape.  No, not EVEN if it's grape.  That's how committed to Clinton I am.

    Oh, and Hillary by no less than 10 (and probably 12) tomorrow.  Maybe more if Waffle-Gate hits the Evening News.  :-)

    Parent

    I want waffles (none / 0) (#30)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:11:33 PM EST
    with chocolate ice cream and whip cream! But no policy questions please! Ideally none about foreign, domestic, environmental, or economic policies either.  

    Parent
    Didn't Dubya (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:13:05 PM EST
    refuse to keep debating Kerry after he kept looking like a fool? Methinks this is very very similar.  

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#68)
    by wasabi on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:42:05 PM EST
    It's not in the frontrunners interest to participate in a debate.  Quit while you are ahead, is the rule.

    Parent
    I don't believe Dubya (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:57:56 PM EST
    was the frontrunner when he was ahead. And the fact that Obama can't seem to win any swing states except his own home state that swings blue every time does not exactly show us a frontrunner.   But Dubya didn't like debating because he was awful at them and Kerry wiped the floor with him. Much the same way that Obama does when Clinton is debating him.  Witness his baby freakout about the last debate.  Yes, must be because he's the frontrunner.  LOL!

    Parent
    yes, both gore and kerry (none / 0) (#101)
    by cpinva on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:21:11 PM EST
    stomped bush in debates. then they were derided as dull and boring, because they just insisted on using facts, and actually discussing real issues. it brought the punditocracy to tears. also, it made them late for the cocktail parties, which meant that most of the good shrimp were gone by the time they arrived.

    check and see if there were any "A" list parties planned for after the proposed NC debate.

    Parent

    yes, both gore and kerry (none / 0) (#102)
    by cpinva on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:06:05 PM EST
    stomped bush in debates. then they were derided as dull and boring, because they just insisted on using facts, and actually discussing real issues. it brought the punditocracy to tears. also, it made them late for the cocktail parties, which meant that most of the good shrimp were gone by the time they arrived.

    check and see if there were any "A" list parties planned for after the proposed NC debate.

    Parent

    Brave, brave, brave, brave, Obama! (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:21:40 PM EST
    Foreign policy reared its ugly head
    and Obama bravely turned and fled!

    /Monty Python reference

    Parent

    guess Obama (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:57:46 PM EST
    is still licking his wounds from the last one.

    Parent
    I had waffles this morning (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:12:38 PM EST
    with a blueberry compote.

    I still managed to answer some questions about foreign policy while I chewed.

    Parent

    Multitasking! (4.50 / 2) (#33)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:17:16 PM EST
    You didn't even yell "Leggo my Eggo"?

    Parent
    Huh...I one upped you (none / 0) (#55)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:36:25 PM EST
    I ground my own organic grains, made my waffles with my grains, smothered with homemade jam and brought peace between the Armenian and Greek Orthodox priests who fight every year at Easter at the Holy Sepulcher Church in
    Police have broken up a fist fight between Greek and Armenian orthodox clergy at one of Christianity's holiest sites in Jerusalem. Eyewitnesses say the scuffles broke out at the city's Church of the Holy Sepulchre after an Armenian priest pushed a Greek cleric away from a tomb.

    Fights are not uncommon at the church which is said to mark the site of Christ's burial and is shared by a number of Christian denominations. Crowds had gathered to celebrate the Orthodox Palm Sunday, traditionally when Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey. Western churches celebrated Palm Sunday and Easter last month.

    No injuries were reported but two Armenians were briefly held for questioning. A crowd of around 100 Armenians gathered outside the police station to protest at their detention but later dispersed.


     

    Parent

    Video Link (none / 0) (#64)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:38:33 PM EST
    what kind of jam? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:26:50 PM EST
    The NC Democratic Party sounds pissed (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by kempis on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:24:00 PM EST
    Argh--LINK (none / 0) (#43)
    by kempis on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:24:40 PM EST
    A debate would destroy the party! (none / 0) (#60)
    by waldenpond on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:37:14 PM EST
    [However, there were also growing concerns about what another debate would do to party unity.]

    :)  LOL, that is the funniest thing.....


    Parent

    Maybe they feel (none / 0) (#47)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:26:31 PM EST
    Obama is taking them for granted...

    Parent
    Oh wait... (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:28:12 PM EST
    from the link:

    You have shown tremendous passion and interest in being a part of history as Democrats are poised this year to elect the first female or African-American President. However, there were also growing concerns about what another debate would do to party unity.

    Yeah, it's the debates that are harming party unity.

    Snort.

    Parent

    He should have waited (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:34:29 PM EST
    until after the results of the primary tomorrow and maybe Hillary would have dropped out of the race.

    As it is, he's showing his cahone-free true colors. (Wonder if Josh Marshall will call him a Hillary-gelding now ;-).

    Hillary HAD to do debates.  The media roasted her and the only way for people to see how she truly was, was to debate.

    Obama on the other hand is turned into a legend in the media, and the debates relay the utter falsity of that bubble that surrounds him...

    So sad, too bad.

    Parent

    A TV commerical asks: (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:57:26 PM EST
    "ever think about what your mop goes through?"

    I should stop watching TV.

    No (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by cmugirl on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:59:18 PM EST
    But thanks to you, now I will wonder!  :)

    Parent
    As if I don't have (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:59:24 PM EST
    enough guilt.  

    Parent
    only commercial teevee (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:58:24 PM EST
    200 Channels and nothing's on (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:00:35 PM EST
    I wish I could get BBC World here. I watch it when I'm in europe.

    Parent
    the other night (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:00:56 PM EST
    I was watching FOX for some reason and Frank Luntz was on with one of his famous focus groups.
    the striking thing was how angry all the Obama people seemed.  you could literally see the hate coming off them in waves like stink lines in a comic strip.
    it was almost funny if it had not been more scary.


    I saw the strategy room (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by kayla on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:22:53 PM EST
    the other night and Rendell was talking to a focus group of young college students and told them that they've drank the kool-aid.  It was awesome.  One girl said, "We like him because he's brought young people into his campaign and will do something about college loans!"  And he goes, "Lemme stop you right there."  And quizzes them on a bill Hillary helped pass that kept loans from taken up over 15% of your income.  The focus group just sat there looking silly.

    Parent
    But we're (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:25:06 PM EST
    the low information voters?

    Parent
    Nobody ever said those high information voters (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by badger on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:37:01 PM EST
    had correct information - they just have lots of information.

    Parent
    Isn't it amazing (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by lilburro on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:42:45 PM EST
    how America constantly wants to follow college kids, as if they knew anything?  

    I say this as someone who just graduated college and was continually frustrated by the expensive mediocrity of it all.

    I actually have more time to follow politics now than I did in college.  

    Parent

    they are angry at Bush Co (none / 0) (#90)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:10:40 PM EST
    for making them feel ineffectual and irrelevant for seven years, and they are so desperate to belong to something, to be validated, that any challenge to their group is viewed as a violent assault; they respond accordingly.

    Parent
    I love the "high information" posters (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Fabian on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:01:24 PM EST
    over at the great orange.  The old "Gore and Obama are bestest buds" meme popped up again.  (Irrational exuberance - where's Greenspan?)  A handful of people said "Of course, Gore is for Obama.  They share goals and concerns."  citing almost nothing, or just plain nothing.

    Al Gore is an open book.  If you want to see what he stands for, it's not hard to find out.  No carefully vague policy statements.  If someone wants to make the case that Obama has the same priorities as Gore, send me a copy - please.  Otherwise it's just people asserting that a respected and influential figure is shoulder to shoulder with Their Guy because it sounds good, because he ought to be because Obama is the Good Guy and Clinton is the Bad Guy.  Because it's the way things should be.

    Reality-what?

    Don't Think Gore Was Real Impressed With Obama (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:08:53 PM EST
    sponsoring a Liquefied Coal bill back in 07. In fact, he publicly stated it was a horrible idea.

    Parent
    Anyone know...... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by michitucky on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:06:36 PM EST
    What Donna Brazile is up to now?  I spoke with my mother late this afternoon and she said Wolfe had a new quote from Donna dissing the Clinton campaign again.  Haven't found anything on it...???

    front paged at DailyO (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:24:06 PM EST
    >>>>With Democrats protective of the House and Senate majorities just won in 2006, "Do you think for one minute that Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid will allow this fight to go on and on and on?" says Donna Brazile, an uncommitted superdelegate as an official of the Democratic National Committee, and manager of the 2000 Gore campaign. "There's a group around [Sen. Clinton] that really wants to take the fight to the convention. They don't care about the party. It scares me, and that's what scares a lot of superdelegates."

    WSJ - 4/21/08
    http://tinyurl.com/3mgglz


    Parent

    DB is An UNCOMMITTED SuperDelegate? (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:25:17 PM EST
    Is that a joke?

    Parent
    Probably because (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by badger on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:40:27 PM EST
    involuntary commitment is so difficult nowadays.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by facta non verba on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:28:55 PM EST
    it was first in a WSJ story this morning. She was defending herself on CNN this afternoon.

    Parent
    Thank You... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by michitucky on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:51:19 PM EST
    Donna Brazil (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Sunshine on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:24:13 PM EST
    said that if Hillary Clinton didn't drop out she could destroy the party and thats what scared her...   If she is so scared she should talk Obama into dropping out...  

    Parent
    when Hillary was leading (none / 0) (#57)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:36:48 PM EST
    during the summer and fall, Chris Matthews would frequently say, "What will it take for Hillary to win?" - dogwhistling to the "beat the B!" crowd.

    Parent
    Maybe she's at Promises? (none / 0) (#24)
    by lilburro on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:08:02 PM EST
    just kidding DB.

    Parent
    Food Riots (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:10:00 PM EST
    The Economist, which calls the current crisis the silent tsunami, reports that  last year wheat prices rose 77% and rice 16%, but since January rice prices have  risen 141%. The reasons include rising fuel costs, weather problems, increased  demand in China and India, as well as the push to create biofuels from cereal  crops.

    [snip]

    The New York Times lectured Haiti on April 18 that "Haiti, its  agriculture industry in shambles, needs to better feed itself."  Unfortunately, the article did not talk at all about one of  the main causes of the shortages -- the fact that the U.S. and other  international financial bodies destroyed Haitian rice farmers to create a major  market for the heavily subsidized rice from U.S. farmers.  This is not the only  cause of hunger in Haiti and other poor countries, but it is a major force.

    Thirty years ago, Haiti raised nearly all the rice it needed.  What happened?

    Citizens of the USA know very little about the role of their  government in helping create the hunger problems in Haiti or other countries.   But there is much that individuals can do.  People can donate to help feed  individual hungry people and participate with advocacy organizations like Bread for the World or Oxfam to help change the U.S. and global rules which favor the  rich countries.  This advocacy can help countries have a better chance to feed  themselves.

    Counterpunch

    NC Debate canceled: concern for party unity???? (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by Shainzona on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:24:09 PM EST
    NC Dem Party canceled the NC debate...because they are concerned that another debate might "affect party unity".  HA.  Actually they and Dean and Brazile are concerned that Obama will look stupid again.

    I think we can see the writing on the wall. (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:38:47 PM EST
    They won't allow her to win.

    Parent
    Democratic Party Tactics (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by AnninCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:56:18 PM EST
    I agree.  Which is why after 30 years of being a Democrat, I'm now Independent.

    It's been shocking to watch this.  A viable candidate being pushed out like she has been has made me rethink my loyalty.

    The worst tactics have been the remarks made by Pelosi, Dean, et al, that super delegates should push her out.

    That has offended my principles to the bone.

    Parent

    Something that fascinates me about Obama (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by lilburro on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:29:43 PM EST
    Mr. Hope and Change is about as far from economic populism as I can imagine.  Popular but not populist.  It's really, really weird to me.  He doesn't hit home with the economy (a Clinton tactic), he doesn't defend the rights of the "people" with healthcare, he doesn't defend public schools or social security.  His campaign is about being tired of Washington without any particular critique, other than the special interests critique which has many holes in it, as far as his sincerity goes.  His cuddling up to Republicans does largely legitimate their concerns and worldview.

    I simply don't understand it.  It makes clear at least that grassroots doesn't necessarily equal populist.  I think his bitter remarks are quite revealing (and I give him credit for having a pretty coherent worldview).  He talks about going into (from the outside) small towns where people don't believe in the capacity of Washington to do anything for people.  

    As far as his defense of those comments go:

    "The truth is that these traditions that are passed on from generation to generation, those are important. That's what sustains us. But what is absolutely true is that people don't feel like they are being listened to. ...

    "What we need is a government that is actually paying attention."

    He has refused basically every opening to be seen as a fighter.  He doesn't even always frame himself as a listener, just as someone who is mindful enough to broaden the coalition.

    Obama's bitter comments are incredibly revealing.  People, according to him, should not be cynical about government (but again, no populist tie there - not because government comes from them, but because government can do good for them).  If you read the bitter comments, the "we" he speaks of is pretty distant from the people he is talking about (the Pennsylvanians).  It doesn't seem like the same "we are the ones we've been waiting for" we.  Obama seems to believe his explanation of why people in PA or white voters in general don't support him as much as he'd like.  But I think he needs to expand his worldview to incorporate a different kind of political style if he wants their votes.  Framing the working class as people who are "cynical government can do anything for them" is not going to be as successful as "I will fight for you."  And he has not made the latter message clear at ALL in his calls for moderation.  Some people feel their lives have enough moderation already, thank you very much.

    Clinton's message can seem stale, although her healthcare battle brings new passion into her campaign.  But with that staleness comes traditional Democratic campaigning and appealing to the working class and the fighter image.  It works because after all this time people still do want a fighter.  Not a Congress deadlock tattler, but a fighter.  And Clinton has set herself up to go into that mold.  

    IMO...

    Ack (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Lahdee on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:49:15 PM EST
    I guess I'll have to watch little o tonight.

    I miss C&J over at the orange. I tried to keep it non-bashing, alas that was in vain. ::sigh::

    Thank goodness for TL Jeralyn, I don't know what I'd do without it. And, you have Big Tent Democrat...I am not worthy.

    KO folded like a cheap suit (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by angie on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:27:52 PM EST
    he was positively charming to that evil, horrible "monster" Hillary -- told her how they see eye to eye on W even. HA! Obama declined to be on KO because of the old "scheduling conflict" -- same excuse he used for the State of the Black Union-- uh, doesn't he know it would be a cakewalk? Or maybe he figured "I already got all his viewers, why bother?" (just like with State of the Black Union).


    Parent
    Will You Still Love Me (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by p lukasiak on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:58:54 PM EST
    is a great song.... and really ahead of its time in terms of its subject matter -- back then, you didn't play songs that were so blantantly about one night stands -- you could get away with referring obliquely to infidelity, but that was about it.

    And my favorite line is "Can I believe the magic of you sighs".  One of the all time great double entendres (sighs/size).

    But if we're gonna do oldies election songs, how about Leslie Gore's "Its My Party (and I'll Cry if I Want To)" in honor of Senator Obama?

    Baseball and primary superstitions (none / 0) (#5)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:57:50 PM EST
    Ok, I have my routine before the primaries.  I do not look at polls or watch any of the cable news people.   Fish dinner and I don't talk to any Obama supporters.  

    I have those too (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:01:27 PM EST
    I've determined the outcome of baseball games simply by leaving the room!  My power is awesome.

    I play this game when I'm walking around NYC, that if I can cross the street before the light changes, my candidate will win.  It worked today!

    But I'm as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof.

    Parent

    Good Idea, My BP Rises 50 pts when on Huffpo (none / 0) (#9)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:59:23 PM EST
    Solution (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by themomcat on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:19:34 PM EST
    Don't go to Huffpo. Bad for your health. Warning could cause heart attack or stroke. I also suggest you stay away from some of the more virulent Obama blogs.

    Parent
    That's what I do (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:20:15 PM EST
    I come here instead.

    Gratifyingly troll and insult-free.

    Parent

    TL threads are awesome (none / 0) (#15)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:01:43 PM EST
    It's like group stream of consciousness writing.  Gonzo without the drugs ( I think).  

    I wish (none / 0) (#19)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:04:50 PM EST
    Hunter Thompson were around, covering this election.  

    Sadly, I'm reduced to watching Lou Dobbs right now.

    Parent

    "without the drugs"..... (none / 0) (#107)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:20:49 AM EST
    Speak for yourself:)

    Parent
    Tap tap tap (none / 0) (#16)
    by Faust on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:02:06 PM EST
    I hate this part. Anticipation is killing me.

    I thought this article was interesting:

    http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120873309012529689.html

    especially after the Krugman article on BitterClingGateThing. I did wonder what Mr. Frank would have to say about it.

    Interesting character (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:05:05 PM EST
    I had a chance to chat with him for a while a couple of years ago. If you want an informed antidote to BTD's free market perspective, he's your guy.

    I'm happy to see that he has a regular column.

    Parent

    I'll take Stieglitz, thanks. (none / 0) (#51)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:32:37 PM EST
    But isn't the Democratic party (none / 0) (#66)
    by lilburro on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:39:57 PM EST
    a place where the bitter used to feel comfortable?  A place where economic inequality/resentment was used to motivate change?  

    I don't think Frank gets it.  As far as bitterness goes, people know they're bitter.  Edwards was able to speak to it and really work with it.  Not so well, he's not still here, but he was able to tap into it.  

    I don't think the Democratic Party is too squeamish about bitterness.  I think people who praise Obama might see it that way, but if you listen to Clinton or Edwards, they are able to tap into economic populism.

    Bitterness as a culture industy may work for Repubs and for the latest round of bittergate coverage.  But this is superficial, the media deciding whether it should brand people as bitter.  A good candidate should be able to tap into it more deeply.  Because it is way more than a choice of identification.

    Of course, latte liberals have a hard time dealing with economic resentment, because they are often the subjects of it.  Truth be told, lattes are expensive.  And if you want to keep these people on your side, I guess you won't be attacking lattes.

    Parent

    A Question ..... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Truyalan on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:03:02 PM EST
    What are the chances of Hillary runing as an Independent in November?

    zero (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:03:27 PM EST
    No way she will (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:05:38 PM EST
    but I'd denounce her if she did.

    Parent
    Nada (4.75 / 4) (#23)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:07:01 PM EST
    she's loyal to the party.  But I could easily imagine Obama doing it, if he loses the nom.

    Parent
    Not a chance. (4.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Faust on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:25:05 PM EST
    I can't believe how poorly some of you think of him. He's not the saint some think him to be but he's not the devil some of you think he is either.

    Parent
    His mentor is Joe L (none / 0) (#52)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:34:11 PM EST
    Maybe he would encourage him to become independent.

    Parent
    I certainly hope Obama (none / 0) (#61)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:37:36 PM EST
    wouldn't go that route. Since Dems are likely to have a large majority in Congress next year, it would seem to be political suicide.

    Lieberman is absolute poison to Dems now. Why do you think he's following McCain around like the world's oldest puppy dog?

    Parent

    I don't think he's the devil (none / 0) (#56)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:36:26 PM EST
    I think he's too naive and too gaffe-prone to be the Democratic president, that's all.  I think he's being selected in an American Idol sense, rather than based on true presidential characteristics.  He'll be horrible fo the Democrats.

    But as a senator, I'm sure he's fine.

    Parent

    Hmmm ... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:50:42 PM EST
    he's not the devil some of you think he is either

    Should we believe this, coming from a poster calling himself ... Faust?

    Parent

    Goethe's Faust (none / 0) (#89)
    by Faust on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:10:10 PM EST
    does indeed make a deal with the Devil. But he's saved by God in the end.

    Where I wind up remains to be seen. Sometimes I'm audacious enough to hope, but Faust was a bit of a cynic and so am I.

    Parent

    funny how that works (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:08:15 PM EST
    If anyone has a right (4.66 / 3) (#36)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:20:37 PM EST
    to poop on the Democrats, it's Hillary, but she won't do it.

    Parent
    have we seen the big budget (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:11:10 PM EST

    CG Ron Paul commercial.
    not a Paul guy but its a pretty freakin cool commercial.

    youtube

    Not a Ron Paul gal (none / 0) (#73)
    by Step Beyond on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:49:54 PM EST
    but you are right. That is a pretty freaking cool commercial.

    Parent
    Endorsement (none / 0) (#54)
    by cmugirl on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:35:27 PM EST
    Not an SD, but still an endorsement:

    LINK

    4/21/2008
    Bozeman Legislator Franke Wilmer Endorses Hillary Clinton for President

    Montana House Member Franke Wilmer today announced her endorsement of Hillary Clinton for President. Wilmer represents Montana House District 64, and is professor of political science and international relations at Montana State University. In 2005 she was appointed by Gov. Schweitzer to serve as chair of the Human Rights Commission.

    "I'm proud to endorse Hillary Clinton for president. She not only has vision, she has substance. Hillary is the candidate with a plan and the know-how to make real change," Wilmer said.

    "I am thrilled to have the support of Franke Wilmer. For years Franke has been committed to promoting social justice and human rights in Montana, through both public service and academics," Clinton said.

    Wilmer cited Clinton's understanding of issues facing Montana and rural America as a deciding factor in her endorsement.

    "Children, the elderly and the neediest Montanans should all have health care, not just some of us. Hillary's healthcare plan is the only one that will take care of all Montanans," Wilmer said. "Also, Hillary understands the need for alternative energy, knows how to get there, and knows Montana can be a leader in the effort."

    In the Montana Legislature where she has served since 2007, Wilmer currently chairs the Committee of State Administration and Veterans Affairs (interim) and serves on the governor's Capital Financial Advisory Council. As an academic, Wilmer's expertise is in political science and international affairs. In past years she has served as Montana State University's Political Science department head.


    Thanks! (none / 0) (#82)
    by AnninCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:58:13 PM EST
    Great news!

    Parent
    OK, 24 hours, 24 minutes (none / 0) (#58)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:37:00 PM EST
    And the polls close. So do we have a pool as to how fast they call it for Hillary or will they let the suspense grow. Too early to call. Too many not reported yet. It is time for her to step down. What is a win in Penna anyway. Ha. This is exciting.

    I'm still reeling (none / 0) (#62)
    by abfabdem on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:38:04 PM EST
    from the meme that the Clintons became suddenly racist after all these years.  If the Obama campaign would just admit it was a campaign tactic (and one that worked, sadly) instead of acting like the Clinton camp were the ones playing dirty ("they elbowed us, so we had to elbow them back")--yea right.  There is a Chicago Sun Times columnist, Mary Mitchell, who had Clinton Racism in one of her headlines just last week.  Well, in reading the article there was nothing in there to support her headline, but she did it anyway.  Suppose it was the only way to get blacks to break for Obama.  And again, it clearly worked, but in the long run hasn't this caused damage to our party?

    Racism (none / 0) (#85)
    by AnninCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:59:16 PM EST
    It's caused a horrible disunity that will not heal for years to come.

    Parent
    The general opinion? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:38:20 PM EST
    I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president we will attack Iran," Clinton said. "In the next ten years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."
    from Jake Tapper

    That was in response to a question, no? (none / 0) (#70)
    by lilburro on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:48:20 PM EST
    She isn't just saying, we'll attack Iran when I'm president, because I feel like it.

    Parent
    right: (none / 0) (#91)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:16:11 PM EST
    Clinton further displayed tough talk in an interview airing on "Good Morning America" Tuesday. ABC News' Chris Cuomo asked Clinton what she would do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.

    Parent
    Just double-checking. (none / 0) (#96)
    by lilburro on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:01:22 PM EST
    I saw that and foolishly went searching for the interview video.  Of course it doesn't come out until tomorrow.  :(

    Her Middle East strategy has been in the spotlight lately.  Not sure I understand it all yet but it's interesting.

    Thanks for the info.

    Parent

    Questioning SurveyUSA crosstabs (none / 0) (#71)
    by qazzyboy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:48:45 PM EST
    Now I'm not going to act like I know more than they do, but what struck me most is the subtle differences SurveyUSA has in the electorate between their different polls.
    When Clinton was +18:
    58% Female
    42% Male

    When Clinton was +14/+6, they made it:
    55% Female
    45% Male

    Considering Pennsylvania is supposed to be more female than many states that have continuously seen turnout at 58% female, why the downgrade in amount of females?

    Also, the age:

    When Clinton +18:
    24% 65 and Over (C: 65%  O: 29%)
    19% 18-24 (C: 45%  O: 44%)

    Now:

    They have 65+ and 18-24 TIED at 21% each (65+ C: 62%  O: 32%) (18-24: O: 57%   C: 36%), which also confuses me considering Pennsylvania is obviously not only older than almost all states, but the poll two weeks ago was still polled when voting registration was over -- why would SurveyUSA think there's going to be an increased youth vote turnout equal to those 65+?

    If these factors are adjusted back to where they were, 58/42 gender split, and the age of the electorate back to where it was, what does the margin become?


    That is an odd change in the turnout model (none / 0) (#93)
    by RalphB on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:23:49 PM EST
    Why they would lower the 65+ turnout is a really good question.  I doubt this last poll now.


    Parent
    Michael Moore (none / 0) (#76)
    by magster on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:52:24 PM EST
    He endorses Obama and expresses anger at Clinton's divisiveness.

    Time for a boycott...

    Just another activist (none / 0) (#79)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:57:00 PM EST
    Who can't tell the difference between 1999 and 2007.


    Parent
    Moore has a problem with someone else's (none / 0) (#81)
    by tigercourse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:58:12 PM EST
    divisiveness? That's sublime.

    Parent
    Obama never takes the high road if it requires (none / 0) (#78)
    by g8grl on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:56:37 PM EST
    extra work or adds risk.  I was hoping at the next debate that someone would ask him why, in twenty years at Rev. Wright's church, he never used his influence to try and heal Wright's anger at white people.  Or why, knowing all the underlying anger, Obama never tried to bring in typical white folks to put his unity schtick into effect.  

    I'm counting on the people of Pennsylvania (none / 0) (#83)
    by Step Beyond on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:58:43 PM EST
    I've got my fingers crossed that Clinton wins by a large enough margin to make sure she stays in. Only if Clinton stays in is there any hope that Florida and Michigan voters will be counted.

    The DNC is dragging its feet, putting off a decision on the Ausman appeal. MHO is that they are hoping to settle the election without ever having to take up the issue again.

    So I'll be anxiously awaiting the results tomorrow along with everyone else.

    as a person in PA (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by kempis on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:52:12 PM EST
    I shall do my best. I'll vote for Hillary as many times as they'll let me tomorrow. :)

    Parent
    Anyone live-blogging Keith O? (none / 0) (#86)
    by catfish on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:02:13 PM EST
    Is he on yet?

    "Blacks backing Clinton cite pressure to side (none / 0) (#87)
    by rockinrocknroll on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:04:51 PM EST
    with Obama" - From the Dallas Morning News today.

    Quote from the article:

    David Bositis of the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies said the angst felt by black Clinton supporters is exaggerated.

    "Have some people been put in the position where they are uncomfortable? Yes," Mr. Bositis said. "On the other hand, will they get over it? Yes."

    Nice, huh?

    KO is really hard to watch but you can tell she's (none / 0) (#88)
    by Salt on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:07:26 PM EST
    ready and on guard.  Softball question on gas.

    I don't love you today!!! (none / 0) (#92)
    by jerry on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:18:20 PM EST
    Sure, now you're going to mod me as a troll.

    Where was Axelrod? (none / 0) (#98)
    by halstoon on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:30:12 PM EST
    How could Obama's team not get this out there before today??

    When they let Clinton get away with her hypocrisy, it unnecessarily prolongs this race that should have ended in TX.

    Who does Barack Obama think we are? (none / 0) (#99)
    by TalkRight on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:40:24 PM EST
    Another GOP attacking Obama's small town comment
    NM GOP: 'Who does Barack Obama think we are?'

    The New Mexico GOP is up with an anti-Obama radio ad that previews what's likely to be a whole genre of Republican attacks on him.

    "Speaking to a crowd of San Francisco liberals, Obama attacked the values of people who live in small towns," says the ad, which appears to be airing in several of the state's smaller markets.

    "Obama seems to have a problem with people who believe in their constitutional right to bear arms, who have a strong devotion to their faith, and have a deep appreciation for the American way of life.... Many are wondering, Who does Barack Obama think he is? On second thought, Who does Barack Obama think we are?"

    I can't wait till tomorrow.... (none / 0) (#100)
    by Lora on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:03:08 PM EST
    The joys of electronic voting in PA (and elsewhere):

    Tuesday's Election Will be 'Unrecountable, Unverifiable, and Unauditable'...

    Oh joy.  I can't wait.

    Headlines: Vote Fraud in PA! (none / 0) (#104)
    by Fabian on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 04:16:10 AM EST
    Wednesday morning at the orange-juice place.

    Plus:

    What's wrong with Pennsylvania?
    Drop out Hillary!
    Why won't the Dem Leadership force Hillary out?
    The Media suxor!
    IACF!!!

    That's all I got right now.

    Parent

    If I were to write the headline (none / 0) (#105)
    by Lora on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 08:49:57 AM EST
    How about "Vote Count Correct?  Anybody's Guess!"

    Parent
    Since this is (none / 0) (#103)
    by BrandingIron on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 01:13:53 AM EST
    "the politics of crime", does someone want to venture a guess to tell me why the Dhaliwal Brothers aren't rotting away in jail yet?

    The Bros. are the idiots who taunted the tiger on Christmas Day here in San Francisco.  Okay, so it's not national knowledge that they taunted it, but around here/in S.F. it's commonly accepted that they taunted Tatiana the Tiger, leading up to her escaping/killing their "friend".  On the same day they brought suit against the city of S.F., they got caught shoplifting Wii controllers at the Target at Bayfair.  Complete wastes of flesh, they are.

    Why Is Media Still Reporing Pledged Delegates? (none / 0) (#106)
    by Exeter on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:09:27 AM EST
    ...and the meme that Hillary needs xyz HUGE margins to catch Obama in pledged delegates? It keeps reinforcing the notion that pledged delegates have paramount importance in deciding the nomination.  They are definitely an important aspect, but since neither will have enough pledged delegates and both will need a great deal of super delegates votes to get over nomination threshold, the narrative of who can win the pledged delegate race is mute-- for the most part, super delegates are name of the game.