Passover and Open Thread

Passover begins tonight. Here's the story in a nutshell:

The Children of Israel arrive in Egypt; Pharaoh fears their growth and enslaves them; a leader is born. As a young man, Moses leaves the palace and discovers the hardship of his brethren; thus begins his journey to become leader of the Israelites.

Pharaoh refuses to let the People of Israel go; G-d brings upon Egypt ten plagues; the people of Egypt beg Pharaoh to let the Jews go; Pharaoh's heart remains hardened.

Pharaoh's resistance is finally broken and he actually chases the Israelites from his land. Finally, the Jews are free...but the story's not over yet.


Why it's called Passover:

The holiday's name - Pesach, meaning "passing over" or "protection" in Hebrew, is derived from the instructions given to Moses by G-d . In order to encourage the Pharaoh to free the Israelites, G-d intended to kill the first-born of both man and beast. To protect themselves, the Israelites were told to mark their dwellings with lamb's blood so that G-d could identify and "pass over" their homes.

Where matzoh(unleavened bread) comes in:

The Pharaoh was unconvinced and refused to free the Jewish slaves. Until the last plague.

When the Pharaoh finally agreed to freedom, the Israelites left their homes so quickly that there wasn't even time to bake their breads. So they packed the raw dough to take with them on their journey. As they fled through the desert they would quickly bake the dough in the hot sun into hard crackers called matzohs. Today to commemorate this event, Jews eat matzoh in place of bread during Passover.

Why it wasn't over:

The Pharaoh's army chased them through the desert towards the Red Sea. When the Jews reached the sea they were trapped, since the sea blocked their escape

It was then that a miracle occurred. The waves of the Red Sea parted and the Israelites were able to cross to the other side. As soon as they all reached the other side the sea closed trapping the Pharaoh's army as the waves closed upon them

Then as the Israelites watched the waters of the Red Sea sweep away the Pharaoh's army they realized they were finally free.

Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have both sent out Passover greetings this week.


I have always been inspired by the enduring words of the Haggadah: "In every generation, each of us must see ourselves as if we personally came out of Egypt." It's through remembering the past that we become strong and effective advocates for all who suffer the indignity and pain of servitude and injustice. I am deeply moved by this timeless cry to stand up to oppression, tyranny, and discrimination -- wherever they are found.

As you prepare your homes and your hearts for this Passover season, please know that Bill, Chelsea, and I join you in celebrating freedom and family. Hag Sameach -- May this be a season of joy for all!


The Seder, with all its rich traditions, has much to teach us all. Its emphasis on teaching children, and letting them demonstrate their knowledge through the traditional asking of questions, embodies the great Jewish traditions of family and education. Most of all, the Haggadah tells us an ancient story to both recall history, and to teach us lessons about the moral imperatives that we must aim to live by today; it demonstrates the power of maintaining faith and determination, and reminds us that we must constantly work on behalf of freedom in the face of injustice.

American Jews have always played a vital role in our national conversation. As we approach this Passover holiday, let us continue to engage in dialogue, and to ask ourselves and each other how the Passover story challenges us to question the world as it is, and to seek a future that is more just and more peaceful for all. Michelle, Malia, and Sasha join me in sending warm wishes for a joyous and meaningful Passover.

This is an open thread.

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    I am non-observant, myself (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:17:36 PM EST
    but I wish a happy holiday to al those reclining tonight.

    yes (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:19:03 PM EST
    happy passover.

    me too... (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:32:31 PM EST
    but his pandering to Jews will not win him many Jewish votes...at least not from any Jews that I know.

    But no one (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by stillife on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:23:17 PM EST
    has done more to fight anti-Semitism than Barack Obama!

    silly me...I forgot (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:37:57 PM EST
    well, hyperbole has a strong Jewish tradition.

    wow (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by sas on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:05:13 PM EST
    no one


    and i didn't even know


    I do appreciate Hillary making her message (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by felizarte on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:40:52 PM EST
    discretely personal and universally human without setting apart the Jewish people as a separate group like what Obama did in his message.

    Obama's message (none / 0) (#99)
    by angie on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:15:51 PM EST
    reads like a lesson on Passover in particular and the Jewish people in particular. How surprising (not).  

    should be "Jewish people in general" n/t (none / 0) (#101)
    by angie on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:16:34 PM EST
    Heading out to Passover supper (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:56:08 PM EST
    with my Jewish spouse and friends now, and we thank you.  I have so enjoyed learning the rituals, making them laugh when it's my turn to attempt prayers in Hebrew.  But it's well worth it for the kosher yummies waiting for us (after some of the unyummy stuff that's part of the rituals so feeding the mind and heart and soul while the stomach awaits. . . .).

    Happy Shabbas!


    Wishing you a sweet Pesach (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by stillife on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:19:46 PM EST
    I'm a mongrel (half-Jewish) but I always enjoy going over to our friends' house when they break the fast on Yom Kippur.  

    I'm not even a mutt (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:56:21 PM EST
    and just a hanger-on, but we did have us a good Pesach 'til all hours, probably because of your good wishes!

    Now I get to look forward to the Day of Atonement -- I've been waiting a year.  Every healthy marriage ought to have such a great tradition . . as then it's required of us to just STFU and be tolerant of our human frailties for the next 364 days. :-)


    A shout-out to the Tribe from the Top Cats (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Ellie on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:49:53 PM EST
    Will email all requests in this thread, observant or not, an MP3 of the ska-band Top Cats kicking serious tookus with their tune, Let Them Go.* ("Oh, great Pharaoh, let them go let them go let them go go go ...")

    Smokin' on it's own merits, but also a hands down winner of the Smallest Micro-Genre Evah: Ska Klezmer.

    And WTF, you can dance to it to. (Also, I'm hard-wired to respect artists' copyrights, so if you like this tune, please look into Top Cats' rekkid, Mr. Donkey Paradise and consider buying it.)


    Hmm, four glasses of Mad Dog.... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jerry on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:39:39 PM EST
    It's that time of year to tell our children the story of our enslavement, the story of Exodus, and to let them learn a lesson on their own: just say "no thank you" and stay away from wine!

    The response to Jay-Z's (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by myiq2xu on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:44:39 PM EST
    Dirt on your Shoulder:

    No Scrubs by TLC

    That was great! (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by stillife on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:17:13 PM EST
    Here's my choice for Hillary's campaign anthem:

    Sisters are doin' it for themselves


    Love it, saved it (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:22:29 AM EST
    for my pre-class minutes, when I'm setting up tech and fill time for students with YouTube greats.

    I am collecting a lot of them here that I would not find on my own, boring and stuck in my music as I am  (how much Mary Chapin Carpenter, Mary Black, Nancy Griffin, Kathy Mattea, etc., can my students stand?).  Thanks to you, Jeralyn, and others who give met such great music moments on open threads!


    that (none / 0) (#38)
    by sas on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:10:10 PM EST
    was great

    hoping the spirit gets rekindled

    we have a long way to go still


    Atrios' Strange Pondering on MoveOn (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Dan the Man on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:59:25 PM EST
    Atrios, as usual, is saying strange things again.  In the post titled "Censure And Move On", he says, "To dismiss Move On is to dismiss the large block of people that comprise it."

    Uh, dude, by endorsing Obama (ya know, the senator who did NOT vote against the censure of MoveOn in the senate), MoveOn was the one who DISMISSED the large block of people (ya know, those Clinton supporters) that (used to) comprise it.  Of course, if one accepts the view of some Obama bloggers that Clinton (and her supporters?) aren't even Democrats, Atrios' latest ponderings make a lot more sense.

    please explain... (none / 0) (#12)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:17:36 PM EST
    the passover connection here...because it entirely escapes me.

    psst: also open thread... (none / 0) (#15)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:21:01 PM EST
    it's also an open thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Florida Resident on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:21:05 PM EST
    I completely missed the open thread part too! (none / 0) (#20)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:27:12 PM EST

    moving on is kind of like passing over ;-) (none / 0) (#26)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:45:48 PM EST
    I missed that this was an open thread... (none / 0) (#27)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:46:28 PM EST
    I give Atrios a lot of latitude because he has managed to remain disengaged for the most part.

    Yes, it seems that he supports Obama.

    Yes, it seems that he sees the ruinous nature of the Democratic party as this campaign has gone on.

    But I do believe that he doesn't fault any candidate specifically and generally, appreciates the fractious nature of the process itself.

    I also appreciate that he remains aloof to all of the various 'progressive' blogs where he is strongly given to defending them against attacks from the Republicans.

    I sort of appreciated his comment. He is saying that in his opinion, Hillary's campaign's beef is not with MoveOn.org but with the individuals who run MoveOn.org. It's a fine point to make and certainly the campaign would lose everyone's attention if they spent the time necessary to achieve the distinction. In a sense, he's doing nothing more than defusing.

    Obviously some blogs like HuffPo and DK are trying to make a REALLY big deal out of it. The problem is that MoveOn.org decided to become an active participant in the nomination process and with that comes criticism...seems like it's a fair deal to me.


    Heh (none / 0) (#73)
    by kayla on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:01:48 PM EST
    "To denounce Rev. Wright is to denounce the African American community."

    And when (none / 0) (#112)
    by cal1942 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:43:06 AM EST
    Move-on emailed their announcement that they were endorsing Obama by "vote" of the membership (I'd made many contributions but was not given a chance to vote), I bid them farewell forever.

    And it's become obvious over time that Atrios is in the bag for Obama.  Another site dropped from my daily trip through the blog world.

    He dismissed Boehlert's admonition about letting the press off the hook when Hillary was trashed and blogs for demonizing her.

    He said little or nothing when Hillary was being trashed in the debates but when Obama got a taste he must have put up 4 or 5 posts complete with ABC contact information.


    Because it's an open thread... (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Kensdad on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:36:02 PM EST
    Here is the big question that none of the Obama supporters have answered and that the media never discusses:

    How does Obama beat John McCain in the General Election???

    There are no signs that Obama can win in FL, OH, PA, or MO (a new poll has McCain blowing him out of the water in MO while only beating Hillary by 2 or 3 pts)... MI also becomes a problem for Obama due to his stance against a re-vote, etc. The same dynamic hurts him in FL along with the added (and growing) animosity toward him from the jewish community. OH certainly seems unreachable for Obama and we'll soon have a better read on PA, but unless there is some kind of miracle for him, then I don't see how anyone can feel confident that he'll do well in PA in the general election.

    Finally, I hear Obama supporters say that he can turn VA and CO from red to blue, and he looks able to take IA. I don't know about CO (that's possible I suppose), but I don't think he has a shot at VA. Webb only barely beat Senator Macaca and he's this big military guy and couldn't be more unlike Obama (again, a new SUSA poll shows McCain trouncing Obama in VA)... as for NM and NV where McCain will use his western roots to hang onto those states, the democrat will have to energize hispanics to take those states (especially NV)... clearly, Hillary has done much, much better than Obama among hispanics...

    Finally, significant portions of Hillary's constituency can swing to McCain in a GE if Obama is the nominee. Think about it, seniors, women, hispanics, jews, and working class white voters are much more likely to vote for McCain in the GE than Obama's core constituency of african americans, youth voters, and the more highly educated and wealthy white liberals... Honestly, does anyone see african americans, college students, and white liberals voting for mccain? Yes, maybe they will stay home or vote for Nader, but they will not defect to McCain in the same type of numbers as Hillary's core voters.

    What am i missing here? Certainly Hillary has her own baggage and troubles with parts of the electorate (like WI, OR, MN), but it's easier to hang onto blue states like these than to turn red ones into blue as Obama will surely have to do... Also, Hillary does have a shot at winning a few red states like NM, NV, AR, and possibly KY and/or TN (though not as likely as the the first 3)...

    Maybe i'm just partisan, and I'm not reading things right... I really want someone to explain to me how Obama beats McCain in the GE.

    The only way he does it (none / 0) (#29)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:49:17 PM EST
    is if we Hillary supporters make it happen.  But let's not do it quietly - we need to make darn sure they know they could not have done it without us.  If Hillary is not president, I still want her to be very powerful.

    If Clinton doesn't get the nom (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:08:17 PM EST
    (highly unlikely, considering how childish Obama is behaving lately) then she will be one of the most powerful figures in the senate as she fights against McCain and keeps him in line.

    What happens if Obama loses?  He goes back to being the junior senator from IL, a job which he himself has declared boring.  I imagine when his term expires, he will go on the speaking circuit and rake in the dough while he can, then roll into some lucrative board positions with multi-national companies.

    The fact that being the democratic nominee for the president of the United States would be the only impressive thing on his resume tells us a lot.


    This is why (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by stillife on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:19:10 PM EST
    I don't want her to be his VP if he's the nom (aside from the fact that it would be an insult).  I doubt that he, in his infinite arrogance, would ever ask her, but in the unlikely event that he did, I'd much prefer her to stay in the Senate.  If she loses the nom (and I hate even to say this, b/c I'm still firmly convinced that she can win), this race may have been a good thing in that it'll make her an even stronger advocate for Democratic principles. Hillary has a phoenix-like ability to rise from the ashes.

    When Obama loses?  That will actually be very interesting, b/c I expect him to fade into obscurity.  He has no taste for the mundane everyday business of legislating.  His movement is all about him.  He wants to be a rock star.


    well, he did say his VP (none / 0) (#104)
    by angie on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:34:17 PM EST
    would have to know "all the stuff" that he doesn't -- a description which seems to fit Hillary to a T.  But, I don't think that is what he meant, because in the same breath he said he knew "all about foreign policy" based on his 4 childhood years in Indonesia.

    If he wants (none / 0) (#113)
    by cal1942 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:56:21 AM EST
    some one who knows all the stuff he doesn't, he's going to have to pick several people.

    If he's nominated I hope neither Clinton nor Edwards join the ticket.

    I feel he can't win and there's no sense dragging down Edwards or Clinton, both of whom are vastly superior to him and could maybe, possibly be viable in 2012.


    You (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by sas on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:16:49 PM EST
    are more generous than I Ruffian.

    His supporters will take us for granted, and I do not want to be part of that.

    In fact, I'm thinking of registering as independant after the primary here in PA on 4/22, after many years as a solid Democrat.

    I don't even recognize the Dem party anymore.  I'm saddened by the Obama supporters disdain  vile commentary for Hillary, a good Democrat, at them shamelessly playing the race card on Bill and Hillary et al, of them blocking revotes in Mich and Fla, clinggate ,  etc

    Despicable and disgraceful....surely you do not expect that I can vote for him?


    I am in Georgia (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:22:16 PM EST
    so I have no qualms about not voting for him.  Only the most delusional O supporters think he has a chance in my state.

    Women died for the right to vote.  They starved themselves.  They were jailed and beaten.  They were humiliated.  They were ostracized.  They were shamed.  They were ridiculed.  Actually, those last few slings and arrows are a bit close to what Clinton and her supporters are experiencing now.

    I will not dishonor their struggle for my rights because I should be a good little girl and vote dem.  I do not trust Obama.  I do not agree with his slash and burn tactics.  I do not trust him to protect my reproductive rights.  I do not think he has the character-or the compassion-to be my president.

    I will vote dem downticket, but should Obama, under what increasingly seems like a narrow possibility, win the nom over Clinton, he does not have my vote.


    I'm with you, Kathy (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by kmblue on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:30:58 PM EST
    speaking from Atlanta, Georgia.
    Still remember going to an early Edwards
    event--all of us Dems looking around nervously
    like strangers in a strange land.
    I had a lady at the event tell me she'd be
    afraid to put a Dem sign on her lawn in her
    neighborhood!   (Her GOP neighbors might
    ostracize her.) Poor dear. ;)

    wow, that's pretty bad (5.00 / 0) (#52)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:57:32 PM EST
    I've had my Hillary sign out since I ordered it off the net last Sept.  I kept having folks stop me on the way to the mailbox to ask where they could get them, so I ordered a bunch of extras to keep on hand and was out in a week.  Though, I'm in Va-Hi, so that's to be expected!

    Obama Has Little To No Chance Of Winning MO (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:32:02 PM EST
    Should definitely give me the latitude not to vote for Obama. If by some miracle Obama gets real close here, I might be in a quandary since I don't want to help either candidate win.

    Totally agree with all of the reasons you stated for not wanting to vote for Obama. If I thought that he would actually select pro-life and pro-people justices for the SCOTUS, I might feel compelled to once again hold my nose and vote for him but like you I don't trust him on this. He has made too many statements that made me doubt that he has ANY commitment to reproductive rights.


    Initially, I believed I would vote for him (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by leis on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:12:49 PM EST
    if he got the nom.  Now, I will absolutely not vote for him. I will not take part in helping someone to benefit from such outrageous sexism.  The absolute irony is that I am told if I don't support him I will set women's causes behind because of SCOTUS.  Newsflash, my cause WAS just set back thanks to YOUR candidate.  I will not wash my hands of the dem party but I will not have my vote hijacked because of issues that are important to me by a candidate who has expressly benefited from dragging my entire gender thru the muck. No thanks.

    I have no trust (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:33:58 PM EST
    that Obama will fight for reproductive rights.  Every public statement he's made thus far on this issue, from the "sanctity of sexuality" bullsh*t to the praising of abstinence education, to charging that pro-choice folk like myself don't know that abortion is a "wrenching moral issue," has been absolutely blood chilling to me.  Roe v Wade has not been eroded from direct challenges, rather, it has been slowly nibbled away by regulation upon regulation.  Time outs, waiting periods, parental notification, partner notification, forced ultrasounds, outlawing certain procedures...and my favorite (as I have said here many times before): restricting a woman to only having access to abortion if she has been raped or in the case of incest.  Because, of course, if she enjoys the sex, then she has to live with the consequences.  The danger is not lack of challenge, but lack of support.

    No one has asked Obama to denounce Wright saying that Natalie Holloway got what she deserved for being of "loose character."  No one asked whether or not Obama was in church that particular day.

    I have no doubt from the words that have come out of Obama's own mouth that he will not fight for women's rights; therefore, I will not fight for him.


    I believe he referred to us (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by leis on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:03:57 PM EST
    as "pro-abortion" while he was waxing poetic on our unwillingness to play nice with the anti-choicers.  

    I understand (none / 0) (#117)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:37:11 AM EST
    what you are saying, believe me.   I'm not really that generous.  But I'm taking my cue from Hillary.  I want her to be a powerful leader, and maybe challenge Obama in 2012 if he does not deliver.  She can only be that if she can deliver votes.

    And a McCain presidency is just unthinkable to me. It would be like handing Bush another victory. He would see it as vindication.  Not gonna happen if I have anything to say about it.  (Of course I do live in FL, so I have very little to say about it).


    Too be perfectly fair (none / 0) (#34)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:00:32 PM EST
    The inverse is also true: Hillary can't beat McCain without Obama supporters.

    If this isn't settled until the (none / 0) (#57)
    by phillhrrll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:15:03 PM EST
    convention the Democratic party could be seriously disgraced and actually marginalized for many years.

    My analysis is based upon the the far left's threats to create chaos and the real possibility of young Obama supporters running amok in Denver on 100 tv channels.  I've been reading a lot of veiled and open threats/promises of anarchy in Denver.

    After watching the Seattle riots on cable, my presumption that it(threats of anarchy) were bravado is wrong, these dudes are serious and seem determined to riot, and the nomination battle/result is the cover not the cause.

    Either candidate would be handicapped or worse in the general election by violence in Denver which seems more probable everyday.

    If there are violent clashes during the convention, how the party escapes crippling damage is beyond me. The anarchists will see a massive police presence as a provocative dare and a solution to prevent trouble seems impossible.

    If the SD's elect Clinton, the NG or more will be needed to impose order and the rule of law.

    Since I believe there is going to be trouble in Denver,more likely by younger people supportive of Obama than Clinton supporters, it will ensure an overwhelming victory by Republicans   in all races. I could be an alarmist or prudent, time will tell.


    On the other hand (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:33:49 PM EST
    considering the threat of riots in choosing a nominee is a notion that should bring bile into the throat of any true democrat.  Where were these angry rioters when Bush condoned torture?  Where were these angry rioters when the constitution was suspended, when we found out about secret rendition, when we found out about Cheney's secret CIA?  Gitmo.  Abu Ghraib.  Honor killings.  Women being burned alive by mullahs the United States taxpayer gives money to in order to "buy the peace" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    I find it absolutely disgusting that these sallow, spoiled brats will threaten to make blood run in the streets if their Precious One is not pushed through the process but then sit at home on their apathetic arses when grievous harm is done to our constitution.

    The cult-like behavior they express in their quest to force Obama down the throat of the party is absolutely despicable.  This is what they will fight for?  This is what they believe in?

    This is not my party.  These are not my people.


    If (5.00 / 0) (#91)
    by sas on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:48:35 PM EST
    his supporters riot or whatever, because they do not get their way, that will speak VOLUMES about him as a candidate.

    If Dean and the DNC nominate out of fear of this kind of thing happening, they deserve every bad thing that might happen to them.

    The Democratic party would deserve to lose because it would stand for nothing of principle.


    Wow Kathy, (none / 0) (#68)
    by phillhrrll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:49:47 PM EST
    your reply seethes with offended outrage (shows skill as a writer) and as you seem like a truly committed Democrat, I wonder if a schism or even worse could happen to the party this year. ? What do you think ? is it possible or will common sense prevail ?

    Kathy is a joker... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:59:11 PM EST
    ...she knows that if the Obama supporters rioted in Denver, us Hillary supporters would have to go and bail our offspring out of jail.

    Good one (none / 0) (#75)
    by phillhrrll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:03:54 PM EST

    I'm sure the Denver police will be ready (5.00 / 0) (#64)
    by ineedalife on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:38:40 PM EST
    Remember the "free speech" cages Boston put people into. And  "moderate" mayor Bloomberg in NY went postal on protesters.

    If Obama thinks he will intimidate his way to the nomination he will destroy the party. I will not vote for him if that kind of stuff happens.


    Not to worry. The women for (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Joan in VA on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:56:45 PM EST
    Hillary will also be there and we will bring cookies and other home baked goods to appease the youngsters.

    You think Obama supporters would riot.... (none / 0) (#69)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:56:15 PM EST
    ...if it was a brokered convention? I don't. It would be sad if they did.

    Some may, (none / 0) (#74)
    by phillhrrll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:02:10 PM EST
    it depends how inspiring influencing history through rioting  can be presented.

    stop the fear mongering (none / 0) (#88)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:39:30 PM EST
    Please visit another site and don't spread nonsense here.

    Sorry (none / 0) (#90)
    by phillhrrll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:44:00 PM EST
    wasn't fear mongering  more of a worst case scenario and I'll drop the subject for good.

    i have a better chance (none / 0) (#115)
    by cpinva on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:47:23 AM EST
    of being hit by lightening (coming down as i post) and run over by a semi, at the same time, than obama (or clinton) has of winning va in nov.

    i was born in, and have lived in va for the majority of my life thus far. i may be wrong, but i believe the last democrat to win the commonwealth was johnson in '64. they might take n. va, but the rest will go republican.

    neither obama or clinton will take any of the deep south states, primaries notwithstanding. he's already shown an inability to win the big blue states, so how he thinks he'll win the GE is something of a mystery.


    My visual of the Obama Trolls at TL (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:46:39 PM EST
    It seems like they have shifts.  They sort of pop up here and there.  Weekdays it's so and so, weeknights, and weekends.  I think of that old cartoon of the  Sam sheep dog and Ralph the woolf, when they start their shift:  



    Not just shifts (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by waldenpond on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:53:06 PM EST
    but regular assignments.  One shift goes to one site and has the  exact same assignment (talking points) as the other shift.  Weekend training has paid off.  
    Then there are the 'brown-nosers' who walk into the office space of someone doing their shift, spill their coffee (kool-aid), giggle and run (get suspended).  I think the brown nosers are hoping the shift workers will notice them and put in a recommendation at the home office (mothership).

    It's fairly annoying (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:59:03 PM EST
    but I guess it gets tiring for them preaching to the choir all day.

    Well, you know, I take that back--more like it's insulting, because they are so easy to see through.


    Not To Patronize You (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by flashman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:08:40 PM EST
    But KOS has a call out to it's schrills to deluge other blogs.

    It didn't occur to me... (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:38:59 PM EST
    that exporting bile would be a worthwhile endeavor.

    Is this a spread the wealth thing?

    Is it possible that they cannot comprehend how divisive and destructive this activity is? Why do they hate Democrats so much?

    For example, I read Jane's post on Hillary calling out MoveOn.org at Firedoglake and it really brought out the netroots. Clearly she was afraid to comment on her own post and did so only once. It wasn't a pretty sight and I think she recognizes the problem.


    They seem to be doing it (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by waldenpond on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:42:58 PM EST
    in shifts is all we are noticing.  It doesn't seem to be just one person at a time.  It's as if they team up to go out, not quite brave enough on their own.  Two by two, or three by three, little gangs going out to 'jump' others.  The team arrives together and departs together.

    perhaps we need... (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:52:06 PM EST
    to find their IRC logs to see them coordinating their efforts...the back chatter would probably be very disheartening though.

    Like the velociraptors (4.75 / 4) (#98)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:14:45 PM EST
    in Jurassic Park!

    That's UNITY, baby! <snark (4.50 / 2) (#93)
    by leis on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:50:32 PM EST
    Classy! The new politics is like the old politics (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ellie on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:26:49 PM EST
    ... only worse. Ugh, what an utterly pointless deployment from kingmaker-wannabee Kos. (Baffled at what such troll "activism" would accomplishment.)

    Mind you, I'm at the tail end of a double-shift (literally) at the drawing board, hunched over like a buzzard, so if my befuddlement is from a short supply of blood and oxygen to my brain, maybe someone else can explain why trolling is a good thing.

    And on that note, a good reminder to close down the shop and recharge for some quality loafing tomorrow thru Monday.


    neutral but are always feeding us the WORM (what Obama really meant)  and always finish how they have no bones to pick in this battle but that if it continues it will divide the party.  They never seem to show up when a post is critical of Clinton or someone in her campaign.

    The ones I like (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:07:15 AM EST
    always begin by explaining, sometimes with great sadness, that they began as Clinton supporters or at least were open to any candidate . . . but then they saw the light and were brought to Obama, blah blah.

    But I'm partial to conversion stories, having -- for odd reasons not worth delving into here -- read a lot of the temperance-to-teetotalism confessions of the early 19th century for a research project.  The Obaman Monologues bear striking similarities. :-)


    definitely the conversions... (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:25:10 AM EST
    the most compelling...

    how I came to Jesus...

    It's so incredibly spiritual...

    Then again, I trained to sell Rainbow vacuums like 35 years ago so I have been exposed to the PT Barnum theory.

    but we're assumed to be rubes...


    picture link left me confused (none / 0) (#31)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:55:07 PM EST
    audio well...

    I do remember the cartoons now that you mention it.

    and YEP!

    It's hard to tell the players apart without a scorecard


    That is Sam and Ralph (none / 0) (#35)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:02:18 PM EST
    Ralph is the woolf, he is not a coyote, even though he does have a resemblance.

    the picture link... (none / 0) (#46)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:40:28 PM EST
    gave me a picture the second time I clicked it, but not the first. The first time I clicked it, it gave me a listing of stuff but no picture at all.

    Anyway, I did remember the cartoons so the picture is as how I remembered it.


    Thanks for the story (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by dianem on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:20:55 PM EST
    I didn't know the whole Passover story. In honor of Passover, I will refrain from commenting on either of the candidates statements and instead simply say that I'm glad that Jewish people can celebrate Passover in peace and that politicians can celebrate the fact that they are doing so. May it someday be so throughout the world.

    home.  This time of the year always brings back the old memories in the East Village.

    Gallop Has Hillary Ahead In National Polling! (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by flashman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:29:05 PM EST
    Hillary leads 46/45.  Her first lead in weeks!

    The polls are moving.

    My son will soon (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:35:40 PM EST
    be calling me to report on the vegan Passover meal he is attending now..  For his portion, he is taking chocolate covered matzoh goodies.  (They substitute something for the shank bone.)

    Happy Shabbas! (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by MO Blue on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:39:02 PM EST
    Hope everyone eats well and is surrounded by loving friends and family on this holiday.

    Passover thoughts: (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by Radiowalla on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:29:32 PM EST
    The reason I love Passover is because the first time I attended a Seder the hosts connected the story of Passover to the struggles of those who are still oppressed, regardless of faith, regardless of nationality.  

    This is an ancient  religious observation that retains immense universality and immense relevance.

    I'm not attending a Seder tonight, but will be lucky enough to attend one tomorrow.  I plan to make mention of Darfur and Tibet and Zimbabwe.  

    Let my people go...

    Bless, and please remember (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:12:47 AM EST
    as well the poor people of the Congo, especially the women whose stories were told in the recent and remarkable documentary on HBO on the Rape of the Congo.  I put them in our prayers tonight at Seder.

    I'm a "just words" person and so am in awe of those with the gift of distilling what would take me a book to do into an hourlong documentary that often can reach so many more people -- and so well.  So I also give thanks to the incredible groups like Women in Film.  They give so much of themselves and their gifts to give voice to the stories of so many others in this world who would not be heard.


    NoQuarter--pronto! (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:18:54 PM EST
    From No Quarter, someone has found the audacity of hope speech on which O based the title of his book.  Let's see...is there a line in there that might be inflammatory...

    "Have the audacity to hope for that husband of yours. Have the audacity to hope for that home of yours. Have the audacity to hope for the homosexual of yours..."

    FINALLY, Wright says something the republicans can agree with.  Maybe McClurkin can do a fundraiser for them, too!

    Backlash Alert... (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:56:58 PM EST
    After reading Paul Lukasiak's excellent post titled Obama, Sexism and the Infantile Id...I've been thinking.

    and then this happens...the first ever Indy car victory by a woman and you can bet that the 'progressives' will be besides themselves as this completely is a problem for them...

    Through the looking glass (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Fabian on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:03:49 AM EST
    teacherken posted a diary this morning.  What the hey, I thought, tk may have been assimilated, but he often has interesting takes on things.

    Has the Catholic Church signaled that Obama is acceptable?
    is the title.

    As a lapsed Catholic, I am interested in the Pope's visit, but the Pope's interest in, or approval of any of our Presidential candidates is not what I am looking for.  I'm more interested in whether the Pope is going to try to force cafeteria Catholics to conform to the RCC's strict dogma or not.

    I think some people reallllllly need some time away from the echo chambers.

    A though occurred to me (none / 0) (#6)
    by Florida Resident on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:48:00 PM EST
    this afternoon, If  I were an alien and had just arrived to this country.  And, I took a history of the Republican Party of the last 50 years, and the history of the Democratic Party for the same period.  And then sat down to hear everything that Obama has said during this primary season, I would come to the conclusion that he was running to become the nominee of the Republican Party.

    What planet would you be from (none / 0) (#10)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:14:19 PM EST
    and where would your eyes be?

    You are sooo (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:37:12 PM EST
    anthropomorphic, we don't need eyes.  

    Well I figure I would be from the third rock (none / 0) (#14)
    by Florida Resident on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:20:32 PM EST
    from the sun.  But then he does claim to be a Democrat.

    haha (none / 0) (#17)
    by Kathy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:22:20 PM EST
    Seems some of the species are speaking out of their cloacas lately...

    Yassuhhhh but tell me if you didn't know (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Florida Resident on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:25:14 PM EST
    who he was what party you think he was running in.  I am basing this just on what he has said and the way he has criticized Carter and the Clinton years.  And praise Reagan and Bush I

    that is a slight exaggeration (none / 0) (#25)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:44:21 PM EST
    but only a slight one.  He is only a little left of the old moderate Republicans like Christine Todd Whitman. Of course, they got kicked out of the current incarnation of the Republican power structure.

    Slightly to the left? Hmm I don't know (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Florida Resident on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:59:42 PM EST
    He sounds like a "Compassionate Conservative" to me who else was sold to us as that?

    BTW enjoy the Holiday. (none / 0) (#7)
    by Florida Resident on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:52:16 PM EST

    Ummm. Minor correction.. (none / 0) (#22)
    by mrjerbub on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:36:49 PM EST
    "It was then that a miracle occurred. The waves of the Red Sea parted and the Israelites were able to cross to the other side."

    That part was mis-translated. Red Sea is supposed to be the Sea of Reeds. A place that no longer exsists. It must be true because I saw in on TV.

    Lou Dobbs and H1B visas (none / 0) (#30)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:50:36 PM EST
    Basketball game ended, switched to CNN, Lou is going on in background...

    Story about Congress passing increase of H1B visas by 77% and he is ripping them (and of course Bush) big time and I'm going right on.

    Now Lou is a pathetic, self-aggrandizing, pompous jerk who resorts to demagoguery most of the time but he does get some things right.

    maybe I'm just selfish (none / 0) (#33)
    by Nasarius on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:00:14 PM EST
    But I'd really like to see free trade and worker migration between the US and EU. Keep the best parts of free trade, and remove the worst (exploitation of third-world workers).

    NO. (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by ghost2 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:20:25 PM EST
    RIGOROUS, ENFORCABLE environmental and labor standards in the trade deals are needed.  That would lift everyone up.  

    I believe the global economy is really connected.  Stopping global trade is like trying to stop the flow of online information.  Too much connection, and hard to do.  The goal should be to raise every one up, whether in third world or first world.

    Having higher (much higher than now) labor standards will benefit all.  


    The predicate of H1B visas... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:42:58 PM EST
    is that there is supposedly a gap between available workers in the US and that American companies need these skilled workers to operate.

    The reality is that this is used merely as a tactic to depress wages and for many if not most of the companies who employ H1B visas, there is no lack of workers at all.

    That was the gist of the report on Lou Dobbs show today.


    I'm living your (none / 0) (#82)
    by phillhrrll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:18:52 PM EST
    your statement. In a nutshell I'm a 45 yr old painting contractor that employed 6-10 ppl for years and due to the depression in new home construction, my career evaporated. I can't find anything paying a quarter of my previous income and I have years of documented success in many facets of business and skilled labor. Going to school to become a cnc programmer appears to be my destiny and not what I want.

    Has anyone read through this yet? (none / 0) (#48)
    by gmo on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:40:53 PM EST
    NYTimes lead piece on the Pentagon's connections to military "analysts."  I'm about halfway through...

    Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon's Hidden Hand

    Yes, but it's off topic (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Prabhata on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:57:06 PM EST
    On this holiday, may all recognize that you are free  from the past.  It's over!

    Hmm...I thought this was also an open thread? (none / 0) (#54)
    by gmo on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:04:43 PM EST
    It is, no worries. (none / 0) (#56)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:11:08 PM EST
    ok thanks.. (none / 0) (#58)
    by gmo on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:17:44 PM EST
    Just finished reading through it, and am still digesting.   I find it all a bit disturbing...

    The networks who tended to give most access to these "analysts" to basically spread the Pentagon's talking points were NBC & CNN.  

    Hmm, I wonder what other bias those two networks share...


    Sad But Not Surprising (none / 0) (#95)
    by CoralGables on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:53:30 PM EST
    I'm working my way through it now. It shouldn't really be surprising. I guess what we will all see come next January is that the media was controlled by this White House from top to bottom after 9/11.

    In the quest to be patriotic, our "freedom of the press" went for the Executive Branch BS hook, line, and sinker to the detriment of us all for years to come.


    Question: Does every state but mine (none / 0) (#76)
    by Joan in VA on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:04:59 PM EST
    have party registration? The Repubs want it here but the Dems don't currently.

    We Do Not Register By Party Here In MO n/t (none / 0) (#81)
    by MO Blue on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:14:32 PM EST
    Not in Wisconsin (none / 0) (#111)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:25:23 AM EST
    although I almost wish we had it, so I could officially diss the Dems and go Independent in more than my mind. :-)

    The politics of hope... (none / 0) (#77)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:06:35 PM EST
    That and Harry and Louise both in one day. (none / 0) (#80)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:13:17 PM EST
    ....by Monday they'll be running ads about Monica.

    Is anyone here aware (none / 0) (#83)
    by phillhrrll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:29:08 PM EST
    of any polls or surveys showing the ages of the candidates supporters. I'm sure the support of the AA community makes Obama's supporters (the worshipers) skew older than they are. I wonder if there's a generation gap, seems there must be. imo

    Survey USA (none / 0) (#92)
    by white n az on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:49:56 PM EST
    offers fairly detailed cross tabs on most of their polls...for example, Here is their PA poll from 4/15/2008

    Actually, Obama clearly has several benefits from youth and typically skews to younger voters probably as much as anything because the younger folks don't have any recollection/knowledge of 1990's prosperity.


    Thank You n/t (none / 0) (#96)
    by phillhrrll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:58:12 PM EST
    I just went over to Josh's site and Greg (none / 0) (#85)
    by gish720 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:30:00 PM EST
    Sargent is back...it handed me a much needed laugh...his article is entitled"

    Top Hillary Fundraisers Rip Into Howard Dean For Saying Super-Dels Should Announce Support "Starting Now"

    and the article is worth reading, but the thing that made me laugh is if you read the first five comments, the last one is rude but very funny (to me)

    Happy Passover. (none / 0) (#100)
    by MarkL on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:16:05 PM EST

    Patriot's Day (none / 0) (#114)
    by cal1942 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:41:20 AM EST
    On this day April 19 in 1775, just after midnight, Paul Revere arrived at Reverand Clarke's house in Lexington and warned John Hancock and Sam Adams that the regulars would arrive shortly.

    A few hours later the regulars marched into Lexington and faced a line of the town's militia on the green.  

    After refusing an order to disburse a shot rang out.  The shot heard 'round the world.

    For great fun read David Hackett Fischer's stirring "Paul Revere's Ride."

    It was a hell of a night.

    Here's a Passover jam for ya..... (none / 0) (#118)
    by kdog on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:11:58 AM EST
    The legendary Desmond Dekker with "The Israelites".

    For a quasi-humanist, I sure love me some religous music.

    Get up in the morning, slaving for bread, sir,
    so that every mouth can be fed.
    Poor me, the Israelite. Aah.

    My wife and my kids, they are packed up and leave me.
    Darling, she said, I was yours to be seen.
    Poor me, the Israelite. Aah.

    Shirt them a-tear up, trousers are gone.
    I don't want to end up like Bonnie and Clyde.
    Poor me, the Israelite. Aah.

    After a storm there must be a calm.
    They catch me in the farm. You sound the alarm.
    Poor me, the Israelite. Aah.

    Poor me, the Israelite.
    I wonder who I'm working for.
    Poor me, Israelite,
    I look a-down and out, sir.