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Obama's Itchy Finger

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:21:46 PM EST
Tags: Barack Obama, 2008 (all tags)
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Intentional or not?

Update: I've watched it twice and I think he was just scratching his face. I don't think he meant anything by it. I also don't think he's dumb. Especially when he talks about how the cameras are on them 24/7.

Update: Comments now closed.

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    Obama's Itchy Finger | 234 comments (234 topical)
    Intentional. n/t (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:23:34 PM EST

    Fish, plankton, sea greens and protein from the sea.
    Intentional--See CBS vid linked at 11:24 (EH) (none / 0) (#83)
    by jawbone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:13:28 AM EST
    Comment by Nell.

    Check the pause at just the right moment.

    Hey, Cheney set a pretty low bar for political discourse, so if the VP can say it to a senator, why not?

    [ Parent ]

    Oh yeah... (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Fredster on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:57:53 AM EST
    Intentional.  On one of these you can see the smirk on his face as people start laughing/applauding.


    [ Parent ]
    Yea there are many videos of this (none / 0) (#162)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:31:05 AM EST
    Maybe Jeralyn will watch the other angles and see more clearly the reason why so many think it is intentional.

    [ Parent ]
    Can anyone link a side view? (none / 0) (#166)
    by CST on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:35:31 AM EST
    I would truly like to see this.  I swear I see a pointer finger, but given that so many people disagree I would like to see some form of proof one way or the other.  To me the CBS video just reinforced this opinion though.

    [ Parent ]
    Do you folks really entertain the notion that (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Joelarama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:39:52 AM EST
    Obama would sink this low?  Even if he could, would a person do this given the kind of backlash it would create?

    Sorry, I do not mean to attack anyone personally, but this reminds me of the ridiculous, unfounded, and out-of-bounds accusations from Kos, Aravosis, and others that Hillary's campaign widened Obama's nose and darkened his face invidiously in an online ad.

    It's just inflammatory, and I'm glad Jeralyn updated to say that she saw nothing.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, he was flipping the bird. (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by myiq2xu on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:29:26 AM EST
    It was intentional, and obvious.

    [ Parent ]
    Simple answers to simple questions (5.00 / 1) (#245)
    by lambert on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:12:53 AM EST
    Yes.

    Because periodically, when Obama's feeling down, or has been beaten like a gong in a debate, he feels the need to insult and denigrate his opponents.

    I'm sure looking forward to four years of misogyny. Aren't you?

    [ Parent ]

    I think you mistake me (none / 0) (#171)
    by CST on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:41:46 AM EST
    Or maybe just replied to the wrong post

    I do not think he did it, in fact, I think there were two fingers up.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry. My mistake. (none / 0) (#173)
    by Joelarama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:44:26 AM EST
    But, I also have the same question for others in the thread.  I'd like to discuss this with them.  

    I see this as similar to attacks on Hillary that have lowered the above-named bloggers (among others) that have really turned me off.

    [ Parent ]

    Did you see what he did after that? (none / 0) (#174)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:45:07 AM EST
    I am not sure you've seen the whole video.

    [ Parent ]
    I watched the linked video in its entirety. (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Joelarama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:48:25 AM EST
    I do not see anything, even anything to require the benefit of the doubt.

    The suggestion that he would make such a gesture, on camera, at a debate, is just not rational.  What could he gain?

    Unless he is just another Dick Cheney.  And I do not  see that.

    [ Parent ]

    After the finger (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:55:25 AM EST
    You mean you watched the 12 second clip?  That's not it.  Try this video for much better context:

    http://tinyurl.com/5tmhov

    Starting at 2:20 it gets really "funny"

    Presidential to you?

    [ Parent ]

    Hilarious (1.00 / 3) (#202)
    by Onetimeonly on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:54:44 AM EST
    He was saying when nonsense like what occured last night, you have to brush it off your shoulder(at 2:20). Damn him for using that hipster hip hop music reference, what an N!!! Your pathetic now please ban me for pointing out your racism. wink.
             You guys are as full of hate as any republican, its sad that you claim to be democrats (Maybe Andrew Jackson democrats). There is nothing Obama has done that should warrant the way in which you refer to him. You repeatedly call him "Barry" why dont you just call him "boy" like that crazy rethug did.
            The saddest thing is I dont hate Hillary the way that you hate Obama. He is a liberal, Hillary is not, read her wiki, she is a former republican who switched over their "civil rights" stance.But I will still vote for her, anything is better than McCain. But she is running on how he is "unelectable", how so I would ask? Because he's black, wow I could say the same thing about Hillary because she's a woman. But I wont because thats silly.
          Anyways this site is just as bad as Dailykos, its the we love Hillary site. Cant we just be Democrats and agree to vote for whoever wins the nomination? Or will you vote for McCain as a protest vote? I know where I stand but where do you?

    [ Parent ]
    you are projecting and being belligerent. (none / 0) (#210)
    by kangeroo on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:52:32 AM EST
    obama has stooped to new lows in the democratic party in this campaign--and i've worked for enough politicians and political consultants to know.  obama is no democrat.  please tell him to get out of our party.

    [ Parent ]
    I watched the longer clip. (none / 0) (#185)
    by Joelarama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:03:15 AM EST
    I do not see any evidence he was flipping Hillary the finger, or anything of that nature.

    I do see many of the reasons I don't support him:  responding to the debate as though preaching to the choir, rather than in a way that will sway those who are not convinced, his vacuous statements not backed up by specific proposals, his dismissal of the struggles of the 90s.

    I don't see him fighting for the things I believe in.  But I don't see the gesture(s) people are suggesting.

    I do not think he should be president, but I do not think he is that kind of man.

    [ Parent ]

    Get off the finger, LOL! (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:08:31 AM EST
    Man oh man, what you will do to avoid answering the question of what you thought of his behavior after that part.  Ever see the "Dirt off your shoulder" video from Jay-z?

    The video is a big part of the true context of his subsequent gestures.

    Look, the bottom line is that this whole spectacle is just one more instance of a disgusting pattern of dissmive, arrogant, and direspectful conduct oozing from Obama.

    Even if he did not literally flip the finger, he has been giving us (Clinton supporters) the finger for quite some time now.

    [ Parent ]

    Look, I agree that the Obama compaign (none / 0) (#191)
    by Joelarama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:12:39 AM EST
    and his supporters especially have stooped low.

    There is plenty to criticize Obama with.  But a big reason Kos and people like him deserve no time or respect is that they have engaged in this type of attack, an example being his smear about Hillary allegedly darkening Obama's face.

    There's no reason for this among Democrats.

    [ Parent ]

    What attack? (none / 0) (#192)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:13:57 AM EST
    It's people's opinions and reaction to a video.

    High horse parade came through town tonight at TL.

    [ Parent ]

    Goodnight. I see no reason to discuss this (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Joelarama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:14:44 AM EST
    further.

    [ Parent ]
    Correction: "at a speech." nt (none / 0) (#178)
    by Joelarama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:49:39 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes. I would like to see the side versions. (none / 0) (#250)
    by derridog on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:34:12 AM EST
    I went to the other sites and you can't view them if you have a MAC.

    [ Parent ]
    No class (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by white n az on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:23:47 PM EST
    scratch off some more votes here (with the middle finger of course)

    This obviously was a big hit for the Obama fans.

    Eh (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by nell on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:24:38 PM EST
    not sure...

    because of snub-gate, likeable enough, and his other less than gracious behaviors towards Clinton, not to mention the motions he makes of a knife twisting earlier in this rally in reference to Clinton hitting him at the debate yesterday (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4025010n), I would believe it.

    My Obama fan partner says not, it's just an itch that he has seen him do before....but I am not sure what it means that he has done it before...could just be that he did it more than once...

    Wow... (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by reynwrap582 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:45:04 AM EST
    All I see throughout that whole video is someone with a VERY thin skin.  It's unbecoming of him to stand there dwelling on how his OPPONENT in the race for PRESIDENT is not coddling him.  It makes him look small.  If he acts the same way when running against McCain, the electoral map is going to be a deep deep red.

    It makes sense why he's trying to barrel through his political career, though. Maybe if he spent too much time in politics, he'd self-destruct and become 'mentally deranged.'

    It's possible though that he may not treat McCain the same way.  Judging by some of Obama's comments (and the fact that he has to personally approve of his wife's employer?), I have to wonder if it's latent sexism that charges his treatment of Clinton.  He acts incredulous that she even has the gall to run against him.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL, ask him if he always scratches when.... (none / 0) (#11)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:30:07 PM EST
    ...he's talking about Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Noooo (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by nell on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:26:29 PM EST
    Obama will not get my vote in November, but don't fool yourself about McCain either...remember the "How do we beat the b***h?" question that he laughed at, or his comments about Chelsea's looks and Janet Reno...

    Not exactly a stand-up guy. Certainly vote for McCain if you want, but NOT because something like this would be beneath him.

    McCain didn't pretend he didn't say that (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:27:55 PM EST
    ---there is the difference. :)

    [ Parent ]
    So which is worse... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Thanin on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:48:25 PM EST
    a democrat that may or may not have flipped off an opponent in the primary, or a republican that wants us to not only stay in Iraq but also go to war with Iran?  Another 4000 American soldiers dead is a high price for pride.

    "vote for Senator Mccain and you'll get more of the Same." - Hillary Clinton
    [ Parent ]
    Except right now (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:52:36 PM EST
    I wouldn't bet a plugged nickel that Obama could or would do anything about any of this. Right now I think he is just like an overgrown high school kid in temperament, and presidency is SERIOUS business. Even if I disagree with Sen McCain on a lot of things I don't have the same bad feeling I have right now about Sen Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    The republicans... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Thanin on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:55:51 PM EST
    already acknowledge they want to go to war with Iran and youre worried about high school antics?

    "vote for Senator Mccain and you'll get more of the Same." - Hillary Clinton
    [ Parent ]
    absolutely (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Marvin42 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:04:15 AM EST
    Did you read my comment? This is a little too much insight into this guys emotional make up. Do you understand? You want someone who thinks its ok to pull "high school antics" during a presidential race, against a senator of his own part, deciding how to deal with Iran?

    Give me a break.

    [ Parent ]

    No I wont... (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Thanin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:06:36 AM EST
    give democrats a 'break' when theyre willing to sit around so we can have another bush for the next 8 years.  Do you like having alito and roberts on the bench?

    "vote for Senator Mccain and you'll get more of the Same." - Hillary Clinton
    [ Parent ]
    Stop using scare tactics (5.00 / 1) (#228)
    by Marvin42 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:11:13 AM EST
    Talking about Iraq, Supreme Court (btw you forgot to mention Roe V Wade) to justify that anyone is better than a republican really seems to go against Sen Obamas "democrats aren't the only ones with good ideas" campaign anyway. So maybe let's let the republicans show us more of their good ideas that Sen Obama seems to think they have.

    [ Parent ]
    I do like Roberts (none / 0) (#115)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:35:45 AM EST
    I have no opinion on Alito.  But neither has done anything out of line as of yet.  I'm sure Jeralyn, or other lawyers might disagree, but I don't listen to talking pts as much as I listen to the people.  Roberts was adamant that he wasn't out to re-visit or overturn laws of precedent.  Roberts, despite his personal beliefs concerning religion et al, is also intelligent and by all accounts a firm believer in precedence and the Constitution.  If it came down to a deciding vote on Roe I would fully expect Roberts to break with his conservative compatriots and uphold the law.  I have no proof, just a feeling.

    I'm a pessimist in real life.  On politics, I think I'm more of a pragmatist.  You think that McCain = the death of democracy as we know it.  I think that 220 odd years of America is stronger than one person or even two if you count Bush.  McCain comes from a line of American patriots, not despots.

    [ Parent ]

    You have a lot on faith... (none / 0) (#124)
    by Thanin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:41:48 AM EST
    for a pessimist.  And whats even more interesting, its faith in republicans.  So just out of curiosity, would you say free speech zones were a step forward in democracy or a step back?

    "vote for Senator Mccain and you'll get more of the Same." - Hillary Clinton
    [ Parent ]
    no you are seeing what you want to see (none / 0) (#142)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:57:02 AM EST
    Obama wants change no?  As he attacks Hillary, daily, as do his supporters with any and every smear (just as the great 'bird' debate here) is he opting for change?  Or is he (specifically his chorus) engaging in Rovian campaign tactics?

    The change I want is policy over charisma.  The change I want is commoner over the upper class.  The change I want is peace through good works not threats.  The change I want is the Constitution over signing statements.

    That I do not think every Republican is the anti-Christ says nothing about my feelings for progressivism, it simply says that I'm not as quick to brand every single person who disagrees with me as lunatic.  

    A change that is necessary and Obama talks about is the need to work together.  But like you, Obama has trouble supporting fellow democrats if he sees the opening to lump them in with a prefabricated enemy.  Since he has dismissed Hillary so easily how can I expect him to bridge the gap with Republicans in Congress?  If it is so easy for common voters to lump McCain as being McSame how do voters bridge the gap?  If Roberts personal beliefs make him unfit for the bench why did so many Democrats in the Senate see Roberts the same way as I do?

    Want a scary conservative name?  Larry Silberman is not someone I would want sitting on the Supreme Court...luckily not even Bill Frist would have thought Silberman would have been able to get past the confirmation hearings.

    [ Parent ]

    I 100% agree... (none / 0) (#154)
    by Thanin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:14:54 AM EST
    I'd love to have the idyllic politician and political standards you speak of, and when that miracle candidate comes about, awesome.  But we don't have that this cycle.  What we do have are two democrats who I believe will get us out of Iraq and won't engage Iran, will work towards better social programs and would put more liberal judges on the Supreme Court.  

    On the other side we have someone who's bent over for the republican base (neo-cons), while fooling independents into thinking hes some sort of 'maverick'; someone who openly applauds our war with Iraq and sings about bombing children in Iran.  So yes, I do have something against the other side, but if you want to try and 'bridge the gap' with ideologies that have people like ann coulter and pat bucannon as mouth pieces, then keep being a republican apologist if you wish.  Maybe we can still count your vote as a hanging chad or something.

    "vote for Senator Mccain and you'll get more of the Same." - Hillary Clinton
    [ Parent ]

    yes, I'm worried that someone with less (5.00 / 1) (#249)
    by MarkL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:29:39 AM EST
    maturity than an average teenager shouldnt' be President. Aren't you?

    [ Parent ]
    If you like Bush and Cheney (5.00 / 0) (#233)
    by joanneleon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:37:36 AM EST
    you'll love McCain.

    McCain is a better option for you than Obama?  You've got to be kidding me.  Obama isn't my first choice by far, and I'm really nervous about about how he would fare in the general election, but the idea of McCain as president, and 4-8 more years of Republican rule is not just unnerving, it's terrifying.

    I suggest that you think long and hard about this.  In fact, I beg you to do so.

    [ Parent ]

    McCain is not an idiot (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by TheRefugee on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:58:56 PM EST
    McCain is not insane.  Does he say stuff I don't like?  Sure, so does Obama concerning Iraq, abortion rights, gun control, religion, Israel, Palestinians, his pastor, his grandmother, the people of middle class America, gay rights, health care, racism....but I also know that half the crap I don't like is said to appease a certain demographic.  I don't think Obama would be a nightmare president...I do think he would struggle badly enough that he would be a one-termer.  I don't think McCain would be a nightmare president...I do think that he would end up being just like Bush in terms of lame duckishness (as Obama would) and be a one-termer.  I do not think McCain is going to invade Iran, nor do I think Hillary would without just cause (as per comments made last night).

    [ Parent ]
    We're picking Bush's replacement (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by myiq2xu on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33:19 AM EST
    And we want to make sure we pick the right person.

    Is your point we should hurry up and nominate Obama because McCain is bad?

    We should hurry up and nominate Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    I'd love to have HRC... (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Thanin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:38:03 AM EST
    because I'm Pro-Democrat.  And that is my point.  As bad as you think either of our democratic candidates is, theyre no where near as bad as another 8 years of bush.  So, much like Jeralyn and BTD, I'm voting for whichever gets the democratic nod.

    "vote for Senator Mccain and you'll get more of the Same." - Hillary Clinton
    [ Parent ]
    Oh, Very Nice.. (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by AlladinsLamp on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:28:17 PM EST
    What a classy guy.

    I'm glad I live in a red state.

    Just sayin'.

    No one can prove anything either way (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:28:56 PM EST
    But everyone gets an opinion.

    And if Obama folks think Clinton was intentionally dissing Obama's patriotism, then I'm pretty sure this is an intentional gesture by Obama.

    sort of like... (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by white n az on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:29:29 PM EST
    the proverbial finger he's giving us all when he says he doesn't take money from lobbyists...

    Ooops says USA Today

    What I love about this (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by mg7505 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:30:39 PM EST
    beyond him digging himself deeper into a hole (of course it'll be brushed aside by the MSM), is how he hates on Hillary for beating him in a debate. Of course it's the Obama Rules: it's GOOD to lose a debate, and it's EVIL to win. Bush won the election while losing the debates, so just think how far McCain will get by actually winning. BTD, I'm willing to follow your lead and vote for Obama if he wins, but how on Earth am I supposed to campaign for him until then?

    He says that Hillary was in her element.... (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:33:32 PM EST
    ...so where is he exactly when he's doing this or making the Annie Oakley remarks. He seems quite comfortable in that element himself. I think its really stunning how his rallies has changed from "yes we can" to "oh no she didn't."

    [ Parent ]
    GMTA (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by white n az on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:35:18 PM EST
    I was thinking...which is worse?

    Ridiculing her with the Annie Oakley comments or just flipping her off...

    I think we need a best of mash-up that really captures the 'politics of hope' at its core.

    [ Parent ]

    I hope (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Iphie on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:53:29 AM EST
    that someone with superior editing skills than my own is working on it at this very moment.

    I consider myself to be a fairly rational person, but I am so very, very angry about this -- it was so dismissive and belittling, and bullying. Maybe that's the aspect of it that reminds me so strongly of the last "unifier" with a thin resume who managed to weasel his way into the White House -- the bullying.

    Ugh.

    [ Parent ]

    Ad for The Nation (none / 0) (#121)
    by nellre on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:39:10 AM EST
    I heard an ad for The Nation on Air America this afternoon calling the Annie Oakley thing a Clinton act... when it was an Obama smear.
    However I really would have loved it if she had shown up for the debates in buckskins.

    [ Parent ]
    Intentional I think (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by felizarte on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:31:10 PM EST
    and the audience seem to understand considering the roar of approval which could not be ascribed to anything that he said in that time frame.  How juvenile!

    Flipping off a lady (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by myiq2xu on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:32:28 PM EST
    Now we see where the fanboiz get it from.

    The audience knew... (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:33:32 PM EST
    why the approval just at that point?  

    Sorry but I will enjoy watching him lose.  

    Guys guys guys! (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by blogtopus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:35:06 PM EST
    I know it feels good to think about how this shows Obama is a juvenile twit, but I use my middle finger to wipe sleep out of my eyes in the morning, scratch my nose, rub my eye, whatever; it's just a habit I picked up from my folks. The middle finger is a useful finger aside from it's usual purpose.

    Confession: I use my middle finger often, especially for the d, k, i, e, m and c keys on my keyboard.

    This is so not something to spend energy thinking about. Do some laps.

    ignoring of course... (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by white n az on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:37:19 PM EST
    that he was talking about Hillary at that moment...

    that he used his little finger a minute earlier...

    that the audience completely didn't see it as anything but deliberate...

    I would guess what you said makes sense.

    [ Parent ]

    He spent a lot of time talking about Hillary (none / 0) (#32)
    by CST on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:41:26 PM EST
    Which I don't think is a good thing.  But the fact is the timing could have been at many points.  Also,  do you never switch fingers to scratch?  Really?  The audience may have seen it that way, but the audience is not inside his head.  Im not saying that I know it was innocent, but that also doesnt prove he's guilty.

    I believe innocent until proven guilty, this isn't proof.

    [ Parent ]

    Not proof? (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Palomino on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:20:10 AM EST
    So you've decided not to believe your lying eyes?

    [ Parent ]
    But there was never any proof (none / 0) (#100)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:27:48 AM EST
    That Bill Clinton was saying something about race.

    Or that Bill was questioning Obama's patriotism.

    And I just have a different view than most people about high roads and two wrongs making a right, and all that.

    Manufacturing outrage is a tactic.

    To me the entire scene is not my thing, the nodding of heads in the background have an edge to them, there's a glassy eyed unthinking quality about his support, the guy is well versed in body language, nothing about him is spontaneous.

    So everyone gets to have their opinion here.

    [ Parent ]

    that's why he did it (none / 0) (#215)
    by kimsaw on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:05:07 AM EST
    no one can prove that it was intentional and even  if it was. He knows he can turn it around on the media so that the action will work for him. He can whine again how its the old politics and old media and he can shout from the roof tops for "change". Its the bait and switch thing. He throws out the finger, the audience loves it, especially  college crowd, even that lady in red and another clip shows another bald guy chuckling after the fact. He's work this just right...covertly overt, someone described it... same old same old, my kids figured it out when that caught grandma responding to grandpa's sarcasm about 10 years ago when they were barely teenagers. They called it the "grandma" and still do

    [ Parent ]
    I use all fingers at one time or another.... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:39:53 PM EST
    ...but when I scratch myself with my middle finger I don't usually make a fist with the rest of my fingers, if you know what I mean. But that's just me.

    [ Parent ]
    I know you may not believe this (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by pattonbt on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:58:41 PM EST
    But my dad actually did this.  It always embarassed us (because he loved to go after his nose like this as well with gusto) and we would let him have it every time.

    Of course it was subconscious for him and there was no intent, but it looked awful.

    So we'd remind him and maybe the next time he'd not do it but after that, back to the big f' you.

    Im actually laughing just thinking about it.

    Its like with me, when I drink out of a coffee or tea mug my damned pinkie juts out like an cartoon effete british snob.  I hate it but I do it without thinking.

    As for this, who knows, but methinks its nothing.

    [ Parent ]

    and a proctologist uses theres for (none / 0) (#36)
    by TheRefugee on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:45:39 PM EST
    more..um..mundane reasons...I see your pt and agree...my problem is the crowd reaction..they reacted in approval upon seeing the middle finger go to the side of his face whether the gesture itself was unintentional or not.  Obama thought he was getting cheered for the dramatic pause after mentioning the name Hillary to his adoring, screened and manicured audience.


    [ Parent ]
    Then there's his knowing smile a minute later. (5.00 / 1) (#251)
    by derridog on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:44:14 AM EST
    can't see how anyone could look at this and not see what he's doing.  The brush off gesture was totally deliberate. I think the pinky thing was too. It was just a cover for the next gesture, with the middle finger, so no one could call him on it. Who uses their pinky finger when they  have an itch?  Who uses their middle finger for that matter?

    I am to the point where I might vote for McCain and I'm a life long active Dem. I can't tolerate the idea of this man in the White House. He's just like Bush, a thin-skinned  narcissist, filled with anger , projecting his failures onto others and unable to tolerate any kind of criticism.

    [ Parent ]

    um, their's not theres n/t (none / 0) (#37)
    by TheRefugee on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:46:05 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Here we go again (5.00 / 7) (#25)
    by magisterludi on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:38:42 PM EST
    It's not just the flip versus snob gesture- it's the whole clip. The only time BO actually says something understandable is when he's bashing Clinton. The man is downright catty.

    His supporters in that crowd should be ashamed, too. Although it would appear he was in his own nasty element there.

    What happened to hope and change??? (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by abfabdem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:10:04 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It only applies (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:12:33 AM EST
    AFTER the election.
    Fish, plankton, sea greens and protein from the sea.
    [ Parent ]
    They changed! (none / 0) (#148)
    by mexboy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:04:41 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Intentional (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:40:32 PM EST
    Guy could beat her in the debate so he is putting her down in every way he can including flipping her off.

    Should Read (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:46:22 PM EST
    Guy couldn't beat her in the debateso he is putting her down in every way he can including flipping her off.

    The finger wasn't the only gesture he made during that speech either so I would definitely say it was intentional.

    [ Parent ]

    Was at MY (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by waldenpond on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:40:35 PM EST
    MY thinks it's cool.  Here's a revealing response...

    [He mixed a Jay-Z dirt-off-the-shoulder reference with a Rolling Stones scrape-the-sh!t-right-off-your-shoes Sweet Virginia reference immediately afterward. Talk about a two-toned dog whistle!]

    Uh Yep, that's charisma all right.  Makes me disappointed I'm not voting for him.

    Can you explain the Jay-Z reference? (none / 0) (#45)
    by jawbone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:53:04 PM EST
    Might as well include the Rolling Stones reference while you're at it. (I know the Stones, but no this scrape-the-sh*t thing. Jay-Z--have no idea!)

    Was the shoulder thing flicking off dandruff? Bird poo? The lower thing I couldn't see--was that with the shoe or lower pants leg?


    [ Parent ]

    Jay-Z (none / 0) (#48)
    by CST on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:54:18 PM EST
    Get that dirt off your shoulder

    [ Parent ]
    That was unclear (none / 0) (#52)
    by CST on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:56:32 PM EST
    It was a song by Jay-Z the chorus of which was "Get that dirt off your shoulder" and he makes the same move.

    [ Parent ]
    Found a take and some video from (none / 0) (#72)
    by jawbone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:08:23 AM EST
    Iglesias has some stuff up about this being a dogwhistle -- to the young, I guess.

    [ Parent ]
    i don't think he was doing it intentionally (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by TheRefugee on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:41:46 PM EST
    but, the crowd reaction was loud and instantaneous so I do not think they missed it nor brushed it off as a scratch...they took it for a "look mommy there is a birdy up in the sky"...and gave it their hearty approval.  That is the troubling part.

    I am speechless (5.00 / 6) (#34)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:44:48 PM EST
    Seriously everyone, I don't even know what to say. I obviously prefer Sen Clinton, and have thought Sen Obama was a little inexperienced and lacking in real life understanding. But this. WTF.

    How can we back and try to elect someone who is engaging in juvenile behavior, regardless of who its aimed at. How have we come so far backing someone like this as a viable nominee without anyone noticing? What happens if he is the President and things aren't going well.

    What does it say about his judgement if he does in the PUBLIC?

    I need to drink lots and go to sleep.

    I am a super die-hard HRC supporter (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by txpolitico67 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:46:46 PM EST
    and with this video we are looking under rocks.  This type of "gotchaness" means that now HRC supporters are entering Obamabot territory.

    Surely there are better topics to discuss.  This is turn-off, for sure.

    I was thinking the same (5.00 / 5) (#58)
    by Josmt on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:59:35 PM EST
    I think this is how the obamabots behave and I don't think we should low ourselves to their level.

    [ Parent ]
    It's a more difficult decision than that (none / 0) (#61)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:03:34 AM EST
    History is filled with people who took the high road and lost.


    [ Parent ]
    high horses are fun (none / 0) (#186)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:03:39 AM EST
    they allow people to absolve themselves from many hard questions about the true nature of the world and our fellow man.

    [ Parent ]
    You call them "Obamabots" (none / 0) (#190)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:11:39 AM EST
    but yet feel qualified to give etiquette lectures to the rest of TalkLeft.

    Irony.


    [ Parent ]

    Well that's not subtle (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:57:45 PM EST
    Very sad. I have no words.

    The Dick Cheney School of Communication (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Chimster on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:03:39 AM EST
    Where have I seen this type thing before? Oh yeah, Dick Cheney (G.F.Y.) It's intentional. Why? If you watch the rest of the tape, he rags on Hillary with even more sight gags. Dusting her off his shoulder, and then strangely dusting her off his leg. See the whole clip to understand why this doesn't look like a coincidence.

    Oh who cares? (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:06:09 AM EST
    This whole parade about things like Rezko, Auchi, Ayers, Bosnia, likability, whether Obama gave the bird or not, flag pins, etc...

    WHO CARES?

    If Barack Obama is a spoiled elitist brat or not, it's not going to help me pay less at the gas pump. If Hillary Clinton likes wearing pantsuits, it's not gonna help me get health insurance. Character of a President matters naught. We feel good as Americans when our economy is booming, and when we're able to take care of our children. W. didn't have much 'integrity', in my opinion, but that's not the reason why America is on a downturn right now. It's because the IDEAS were neo-conservative and bad, and he surrounded himself and put people in positions of power who thought the same.

    Obama or Hillary, whoever wins, they have much better ideas than John McCain. And if you don't vote for one or the other over McCain, then don't complain when your gas prices are still high and we still don't have health care for everyone, or even most of everyone.

    I'd rather have an elitist, snobby, character-less arse, or a cold and triangulating President in the White House if we leave Iraq and our economy grows than if I have a "nicer kid" like McCain and I'm still paying $60 to fill up my tank.

    Please can we get back to actual issues?

    You don't like (3.00 / 2) (#225)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:55:49 AM EST
    the topic; don't participate. Or start your own blog.

    [ Parent ]
    CBS video is very clear, and has the best angle (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by ghost2 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:09:37 AM EST
    CBS Video

    Look at about 0:32 second mark.  It's unmistakable.  

    Watch the two women at the back row on the left of the screen, look at the woman in red mouthing "oh" and gasping and laughing, and then explain it to her neighbor.  

    On the 3:10 mark on the video on Corrente where he says:

    That is also precisely why I am running for president to change that kinds of politics.

    Yeah, right.  

    I agree -- clearly intentional ... (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by cymro on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:37:32 AM EST
    ... when viewed in context, and the audience clearly gets it.

    But I hope Hillary does not respond in any way, because she needs to stay above this, not be negative, and speak only about the issues. Maybe the hard core Obama fans who turn out for these rallies enjoy this stuff, but I believe that the undecided voters still want to hear real substance. If she's asked about this, she should dismiss it in 10 seconds or less as a waste of everyone's time, and then go right back to focusing on policy issues.

    [ Parent ]

    the debate itself raised many issues (none / 0) (#140)
    by ghost2 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:56:23 AM EST
    So she doesn't need to go there. Media may raise this by itself.  

    [ Parent ]
    Ditto Ghost2 and (none / 0) (#252)
    by hellskitchen on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:48:23 AM EST
    her performance on Colbert last night was as effective an answer as any, without any nastiness.

    [ Parent ]
    To Mark L> (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:11:53 AM EST
    Your multiple comments supporting John McCain have been deleted.

    Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by ghost2 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:46:10 AM EST
    I link to CBS video above, and from the angle and the crowd reaction right on the spot, it's fairly clear that this was not accidental, especially that he followed it by a bunch of other gestures.  I think that was the theme.  

    Yes, tick off Hillary, but leave room for deniablity.  Pretty audacious!

    [ Parent ]

    Please watch CBS video (none / 0) (#165)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:35:20 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    it's intentional (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by wrkn129 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:15:07 AM EST
    here are two different videos of it. one has a black audience behind him. the other has a white audience behind him. he does the same thing at the exact same time during the speech.

    why do i care? because it shows his character. someone who has so little respect for his opponent probably has just as little respect for me.

    just my take on it.

    OMG! Same gesture, same wording-- (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jawbone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:22:05 AM EST
    Clearly different crowds.

    Check out the whoooooo from the black crowd.

    Busted, Barry!

    [ Parent ]

    It's the same event ... (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Inky on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:34:46 AM EST
    shot at different angles. It thought the videos were from two different events as well until I looked at them again. You'll notice that the same white guy in a blue shirt is sitting by the "W" in "Yes We Can" in both videos.

    With that said, I'm pretty sure that the gesture was deliberate, simply based on the audience's reaction to the gesture and his other demeaning gestures and digs at Hillary in the same speech.

    Whatever. This whole election is too depressing for words.

    [ Parent ]

    yep, i stand corrected (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by wrkn129 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:59:07 AM EST
    after watching it over several times and listening to the crowd reaction, it does appear to be the same event. sorry 'bout that. i can admit i "mis-posted" :)

    [ Parent ]
    One Speech One Audience (none / 0) (#96)
    by CoralGables on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:22:51 AM EST
    It's the same audience (not one white and one black) and it's only one speech. Why do people spend their time looking for things that aren't there

    [ Parent ]
    Probably true... (none / 0) (#102)
    by white n az on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:29:25 AM EST
    as discussed before, they do practice elaborate staging for media purposes...I would presume that all candidates do that.

    [ Parent ]
    Same gesture (none / 0) (#138)
    by nellre on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:55:59 AM EST
    Unbelievable!
    We actually might be better off with McCain!
    No, not rocks, I hate rocks...humph grumph humph

    But please? A person who would do this is not a good person!

    [ Parent ]

    Oh damn (none / 0) (#146)
    by nellre on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:59:56 AM EST
    Same speech. I got got.

    [ Parent ]
    ok, twice in one day isn't a (none / 0) (#172)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:43:40 AM EST
    mistake or meaningless gesture.  I stand corrected.  And that one with the blue blue background is more blatant, that isn't a swipe at his ear that is closer to his mouth, at the same time in the speech...some orchestration....stop picking on the little inconsequential non-policy things....but does he talk policy the next day?  Nope, he talks about how he is gettin dissed again and casually flips the bird as he mentions his opponent, not once but twice.B

    Barry, change we can believe in.   Change like GWB, flipping the bird.  Wonder when he is going to have his Cheney moment and tell Hillary to FO.  Wonder when he is going to have his other Bush moment and say, "that Hillary is a bitsh" when he thinks the camera is off?

    [ Parent ]

    if those two videos are of the same (none / 0) (#177)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:49:06 AM EST
    speech I'm trying too hard to be convinced and need to go to bed.  I was positive that the backgrounds were different but his speech and timing are exactly the same so I'm backing off the two speech claim immediately.

    [ Parent ]
    Much Ado About Nothing (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by CoralGables on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:17:37 AM EST
    Anyone that reads anything other than an itch into this has their own issues they should work on. This is something that shouldn't have been mentioned by anyone and sad that it appears all over the internet.

    It shows how far we have tumbled as we continue to eat our own.

    I'd read all the posts on this issue, but am fairly certain I'd lose a great deal of respect for some whose posts I have greatly enjoyed in the past.

    His own crowd seems to think he did it (none / 0) (#167)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:36:10 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The cheers (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by owenaprhys on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:23:40 AM EST
    I think the cheers from the crowd show that BO AND his supporters both knew just what he was doing with that finger.

    Yes! (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by kayla on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:13:22 AM EST
    "He wants his supporters to hate her"

    I've been thinking this for quite a while now, but I just can't understand why he would want this.  He mocks her every chance he gets whenever he stumbles and she exploits his weakness.  Does he really expect her not to do that?  Why does he have to be such a juvenile sore loser?  

    It's starting to seem like that's the main goal of his campaign.  Ridicule Hillary Clinton into submission.

    [ Parent ]

    He hates Hillary's guts - thats why! (5.00 / 1) (#256)
    by OxyCon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:13:33 AM EST
    Barack and Michelle Obama went to a "Church" where they openly despise Bill and Hillary Clinton.
    There is so much evidence of Barack and Michelle openly hating on the Clintons. He played that rap song about "b*tches" after the Iowa caucuses; Michelle said "if you can't run your own house, you shouldn't be in the White House; the SOTU snub; the countless photos of Obama giving Hillary dirty looks; the way he actively wants his fan base to despise the Clintons with all of his derisive comments towards them.
    And he definitely DID use a "street" version of the middle finger on Hillary. Throughout his "speech" yesterday, he used hand gestures at what he thought were the proper moments. First there was the knife turning, then the middle finger, then brushing his shoulders (another "street" gesture), then there was the brushing his shoes. He knew what he was doing and so did the crowd.
    He's a low class thug.

    [ Parent ]
    He started slowy and cautiously but (none / 0) (#253)
    by hellskitchen on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:54:13 AM EST
    it's certainly at a fever pitch now.

    I remember when he said "You're likable enough, Hillary."  It was just subtle enough that people wondered whether he was just inept and clueless - or was it deliberate.  Many people, myself included, were just not sure.  And we gave him the benefit of the doubt.

    It seems to me that ever since their "get out of the race" campaign against her has failed, the gauntlet is down and it's all out war.

    [ Parent ]

    It's hard to imagine his reasons (none / 0) (#127)
    by cymro on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:44:47 AM EST
    ... other than the fact that he enjoys basking in the adulation of his hard-core supporters. But those people are already voting for him anyway, so who is this type of behavior going to win over?

    It does not make sense to me. But then, this is not the first time I've felt that way about his campaign, so what do I know!?

    [ Parent ]

    We've had an immature president for almost 8 years (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Prabhata on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:29:13 AM EST
    Do we want another one? No Thanks.  

    Clearly intentional (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by nellre on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:30:44 AM EST
    I am surprised anybody would think otherwise.
    This is a very smart guy. He's not going to do that by accident. He is extremely self aware, in control  of himself, his mannerisms, his posture. His fans caught it right away!

    In Europe folks use the middle finger for pointing etc.
    In America, almost all of us are very careful about that.

    He makes slick Willy (like Bill BTW) look positively sticky!

    This isn't slick, it's slimy!

    Similar to a Past Incident (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by daryl herbert on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:32:14 AM EST
    Do you all remember Sen. Obama's mischievous remarks about Sen. Clinton suffering from PMS:
    I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal
    His delivery seems a bit similar (the pausing and the smirking), but maybe he just always talks like that.

    They're both at the same level of maturity, and based on the same hide-in-plain-sight mentality that one would expect from a 13-year-old girl putting down one of the less cool kids.

    So yeah, I think he did it on purpose.

    No excuse for BO (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Prabhata on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33:00 AM EST
    Scratch yourself with the middle finger, and see if that's what most of us do.  No, we don't.  We use all fingers and if we do use one, it's probably the index, not the middle finger.

    To be fair (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by