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Obama and the "Mentally Deranged"

Why does Barack Obama keep using the term "mentally deranged" when discussing guns?

Mentally deranged does not equal mentally ill (or mentally challenged). Use of this term unfairly stigmatizes those suffering from mental illness.

Mental illnesses are treatable conditions that can be lived with and beaten and negative portrayals of mental illnesses only make it harder for those who are sick to get the help they need and to be taken seriously.

More here.

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    I thought "mentally deranged" (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by myiq2xu on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:33:13 PM EST
    applied to those with CDS.

    Koresh knows we don't want them to have guns.

    That was my thought as well: He's enthralled with (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by jawbone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:50:30 PM EST
    the the "derangement" part of CDS.

    But he says he doesn't read blogs, so maybe not.

    It clearly does not help the public to understand mental illness, which seems to be for some reason more and more difficult for many. We know so much more about how the mind words, in conjunction with what chemicals are in the brain and in the body. I look at how the justice system and juries treat those with mental illness and sometimes feels as we're returning to some pre-Enlightenment era.

    Parent

    I had not heard (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by bjorn on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:35:36 PM EST
    he was saying that...so thanks for bringing it to ours and his attention. It is an insult to people with mental disorders and there are a lot of us out here since depression and anxiety are included.  He should know better.  Tipper Gore needs to give him some lessons!

    Can the rest of us use the term? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by diplomatic on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:46:49 PM EST
    I'd like to start calling a few of these left-wing bloggers "mentally deranged."

    tempting, isn't it? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:04:04 PM EST
    Especially today seeing Obama supporters whining that he was treated unfairly last night. Obama must be given preferential treatment!
    Elitism at its finest!
     

    Parent
    Seems to me (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by bob5540 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:47:25 PM EST
    Seems to me that someone who gets hold of a couple guns and shoots 30-odd people dead on a college campus qualifies for the term "mentally deranged." What's your beef?

    Its offensive (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Step Beyond on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:13:01 PM EST
    Seems to me that waiting until someone gets a gun and shoots 30 people dead on a college campus then label them mentally deranged and deny them access to guns is not a good plan.

    The point is to deny access to guns to those with severe mental illness. Those people are not deranged by your definition. Or by anyone with any understanding of mental illness.

    Parent

    Mentally ill people (none / 0) (#29)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:23:11 PM EST
    depending on the illness should not have any access to guns.  Mentally deranged is just an ugly punitive term.  It's over kill.

    Parent
    Exactly. (none / 0) (#50)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:58:30 PM EST
    It's not a certain LEVEL of mental illness. It's just a term that's nasty.  Even if someone is severely mentally ill, you still don't refer to them as deranged.  That's just ridiculous.  It's the equivalent of "mongoloid" which I've heard used in a disparaging way before about people with mental retardation.  I was so taken aback that he used this term.

    For being high-falutin' he can be extremely coarse.

    Parent

    Unfair (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by angie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:54:43 PM EST
    No one has done more for the "mentally deranged" then Barack Obama.

    LOL (none / 0) (#11)
    by bjorn on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:59:37 PM EST
    Maybe Obama means (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Manuel on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:56:01 PM EST
    that only severely mentally ill people should be kept from owning a gun while those with milder challenges should be allowed to have guns.  That would actually be an interesting question.  Where could/should we draw the line in the mental illness spectrums?  What data would we use to decide?

    Aha! the WORM defence ... (none / 0) (#68)
    by cymro on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:45:24 PM EST
    ... comes to his rescue again. This subject could make for a really long answer the next time he is asked about it. At least long enough for the audience to forget what the question was.

    Parent
    So Clinton's reference (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by slr51 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:59:56 PM EST
    last night to the "mentally challenged" when speaking of laws restricting gun ownership is the preferred term?

    That didn't seem right, either. IMO. (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:13:38 PM EST
    Mentally Ill (none / 0) (#30)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:26:11 PM EST
    Part of the problem is that I'm not sure limiting gun ownership among just the mentally ill covers every one needed or that she intended.  There are people who don't have the necessary mental faculties to be safe possessing firearms for reasons other than mental illness, they could have Alzheimers or some other brain damage, they could have really low IQs, etc.  Mentally challenged might encompass all of these folks.  

    Maybe.  

    I don't know.  How do you tactfully say you believe everyone has a right to own a gun so long as they aren't too stupid or too crazy?  This, of course, is why I'm not a politician.    

    Parent

    There are folks (none / 0) (#44)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:46:43 PM EST
    with extremely low IQs or acquired brain injuries and motor skill challenges who should not be handling deadly weapons, in my opinion.  Not all of them are mentally ill.  I think "challenged" would probably be the PC word for them.

    Parent
    There are folks (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:57:29 PM EST
    who'll flog this guy with anything. Personally, to me, his poor fashion sense probobly indicates a latent anti-gay bias. Or, possibly, something deeper and more disturbing. I'll get back to you on what it is.

    One things for sure, even if the victims of so-called "deranged persons" are extremely well armed, there'll be a massive responce on our part, you can bet on that.

    Parent

    I suppose O should add those (none / 0) (#58)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:05:44 PM EST
    who are snark deranged to the list.  Or is that snark challenged?

    Parent
    My response would be to bet ... (none / 0) (#72)
    by cymro on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:57:25 PM EST
    ... that you were not thinking when you wrote "ponce".

    Parent
    Has He Only Used It With Regard To Guns? (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:05:20 PM EST
    Because the federal gun laws refer to "mental defectives" (they were written decades ago).  If you've ever purchased a gun, you had to answer a question about whether you had ever been found to be a mental defective.  I had presumed his mentioning it last night was the result of some sort of mangled briefing paper.  

    Although if he's used it in other contexts, maybe not.

    18 USC 922(g)(4) (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:13:15 PM EST
    Prohibits anyone who has been "adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution" from possessing guns and ammo.  

    Yes! Sometimes it pays to be a lawyer who grew up shooting targets in rural America.  

    Parent

    According To US Law (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:31:02 PM EST
    Insanity, lunacy, psychopath, crazy...all are words that at one time or another were associated with and described someone who had a serious mental illness. These were acceptable standards at one time in our past because we didn't know any better.

    Insanity is a category of defense and also an offensive term for mental illness. Obama should  be more sensitive to politically correct language, as should we all, but  it is pretty mainstream to call a shooter at a school, deranged.  

    Not a biggie for me but he should be made aware that some mentally ill people may be offended by the term, and apologize for being insensitive to them.

    Parent

    I Agree It Was Impolitic (none / 0) (#38)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:32:58 PM EST
    But it also just seemed weird and I was trying to figure out why he would use that term to begin with.

    Parent
    so, Obama is saying that after (none / 0) (#45)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:49:11 PM EST
    folks show they are deranged by, say, shooting up a school, they should not be allowed to possess firearms?

    For a so-called constitutional law professor and the most eloquent thing to step on the national stage since Bill Cli-- er, George H. W. Bush--shouldn't he be speaking more clearly than this?

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#46)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:51:00 PM EST
    I suspect what Obama was trying to say is that he agrees with the current prohibition - on mental defectives - but mangled the term.  Not that mental defectives is a great term to be using in the first place, but it is apparently in the law.

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:59:07 PM EST
    Quite a twist there.

    Parent
    Supposedly, the young (none / 0) (#70)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:55:37 PM EST
    man at Va. Tech. should not have been able to buy guns because of that phrase.

    Parent
    Absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by CSTAR on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:26:29 PM EST
    It was jarring.

    Although if I recall correctly, Clinton used "mentally challenged" which for her purposes wasn't a felicitous use of terms either, since being mentally challenged, for example, having low IQ or cognitive deficits, does not imply (necessarily) violent behavior. I would have preferred her using some other term to describe restrictions based on psychiatric conditions.

    However, equating or even associating mental deficits or psychiatric disorders with derangement, as Obama did last night stigmatizes individuals who have mental illness. Even  paranoid schizophrenics (who I agree should not be allowed to own handguns) are not necessarily deranged.

    obviously (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:16:20 PM EST
    this is not the only misstatement from the debate that Obama's supporters will use to make lemonade, but I wonder how they feel about this (via Taylor Marsh):

    Sen. Barack Obama on Thursday suggested he doesn't see any point in having another debate with Democratic rival Sen. Hillary Clinton. ... .. "I'll be honest with you, we've now had 21," he said. "It's not as if we don't know how to do these things. I could deliver Sen. Clinton's lines; she could, I'm sure, deliver mine."

    Funny thing is, I thought his debate strategy all along has been just that: to deliver Senator Clinton's lines...


    that is one of his metaphors now (none / 0) (#71)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:56:02 PM EST
    "making lemonade from lemons." I caught one the networks briefly and we got another dose.

    The surrogate, Jamal something or other, noted that a Presidential campaign was like not a marathon but a decathlon and that debates were not Obama's events. That is putting it mildy.

    In the clip from an event in North Carolina, Obama went on to dismiss last night as "Washington-style" politics and that debates were meaningless. He said Clinton got a few "jabs" in but not to worry because he was used to her "turning the knife" in on him

    If he is the nominee, I'd say he ain't seen nothing yet

    Parent

    Here is actual comment (none / 0) (#78)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:08:08 PM EST
    They like stirring up controversy and they like playing gotcha games, getting us to attack each other. And I have to say Senator Clinton looked in her element," Mr. Obama said. "She was taking every opportunity to get a dig in there. You know, that's all right. That's her right. That's her right to kind of twist the knife a little bit."

    For one to whom words matter so much, he does have an odd choice of words. "Mentally deranged" is but one happenstance.

    Parent

    Funny thing for him to say (none / 0) (#93)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:33:43 PM EST
    when he had a hard time delivering a lot of his own lines last night.

    And do we have to remind him that it is not about his own entertainment?  Lots of us don't get any other chance to see the candidates.

    Parent

    He always has to have an excuse (none / 0) (#100)
    by Kathy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:59:56 AM EST
    someone else is always to blame for his bad performances.

    Can anyone-please-find me ONE EXAMPLE where he made a mistake and admitted it?  It's always his staff or a rogue surrogate or Clinton, but never him.

    I suppose he blames his mother for lying to him about the Kennedy family helping his father.

    Parent

    Thank you for writing about this (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by DebzLogic on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:32:25 PM EST
    I just cringed when I heard him use this description.  I wondered if anyone else noticed...it really struck me as odd

    A really nice site (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:23:46 AM EST
    called "Crazymeds", is run by a couple of people who have a range of brain disorders, from "mental illness" to epilepsy, and refer to their condition as:

    "mentally interesting".

    I love that term.  Aren't we all, yes?

    If you get a chance, visit the site.  It's very down to earth, humorous at times, sympathetic to others who are mentally ill (or have migraine disease like I do which is treated with some overlapping epilepsy, SSRI, etc drugs) and gives information about drugs from the standpoint of folks who have actually had to use them on a very serious basis.

    Also, I've had several mentally ill family members and I do see mental illness as a mental ILLNESS, so I actually like the term....or how about a more concise term, which is "physical illness of the brain".  And here, I would use "physical" in the physics sort of way, because most brain disorders such as mental illness stem from brains that literally don't fire their electrical -- or chemical -- signals properly.

    Anyway, that'll be 2 cents, please.

    Yes (none / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:17:36 PM EST
    That is a great site, although a bit of a nonsequitur for this thread because they are not politically correct for the sake of light hearted humor. If any candidate used their language it would be condemned. But the info is really useful, vital in fact,  for anyone taking or considering taking drugs for mental or some physical conditions.

    They get a pass because it is generally ok for members of a group to make fun of themselves, but it is not OK for outsiders to do it. For example, AA's can use the word ni&&er without it being racist, but others, almost without exception, can not.

    Parent

    Just words? (3.66 / 3) (#10)
    by stillife on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:56:26 PM EST
    The candidate of hope and unity exhibits a remarkable lack compassion and understanding.  I would say that his insensitive terminology demonstrates a contemptuous attitude, as did his "bitter" remarks.  

    What is that saying about a society being judged on how it treats its least fortunate citizens?

    Do you actually have any proof (none / 0) (#6)
    by marcellus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:49:56 PM EST
    that Obama said "mentally ill" = "mentally deranged"?

    Your first link quotes him as saying that guns should be kept away from those mentally deranged, not all people who are mentally ill.

    Your second link says that "mental illness" should not be referred to as insanity and doesn't mention the term deranged.

    mentally deranged (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Nasarius on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:00:28 PM EST
    Doesn't seem to actually mean anything.

    Feel free to point me in the direction of a proper medical definition. Google turns up one questionable source, then a whole lot of irrelevant nonsense.

    Parent

    You are correct. It is a nonsensical (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:12:37 PM EST
    term. When he purchased the weapons, he was mentally ill. The aftermath of what he did with them was deranged, but not "mentally" deranged.

    Parent
    Joan, are you a psychologist? (none / 0) (#28)
    by marcellus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:22:39 PM EST
    If so, could you confirm that it's fine?  Otherwise, I could check with my sister later who is.  In the meantime, it seems like a reasonably accurate phrasing for me.

    Parent
    Who cares if it is a medical term? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Tiparillo on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:05:27 PM EST
    when you're talking about policy (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Nasarius on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:08:56 PM EST
    The words you use should mean something, no? Legally, medically. Whatever.

    Parent
    It's not my area of expertise (none / 0) (#20)
    by marcellus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:12:19 PM EST
    and I don't see "mentally deranged" with a quick skim of the DSM-IV, so I'm guessing it's not a term in  current use.   Off the top of my head, it does strike me as precisely the definition for someone you'd want to keep guns away from.

    I'll let you know if I find better definitions.

    Parent

    nah, it is more like (none / 0) (#33)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:28:48 PM EST
    calling someone a retard rather than some more scientific name. It falls in with a lot of ugly terms like Mongoloid, retard, nut job....

    Parent
    This I know (none / 0) (#35)
    by marcellus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:30:34 PM EST
    is just blatantly false and scurrilous.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

    For the official word on 'deranged' I'll check back after I get the word from my sister.

    Parent

    You should settle down a little bit. (none / 0) (#54)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:02:24 PM EST
    The point is not that guns should be given to people that are mentally ill. The point is that he used a term that is highly offensive and just plain weird. You kind of learn to stop using this kind of language since it's incorrect somewhere around the 8th grade.  It's just a gross term.  No big deal that he used it. He should just be careful so that parents watching or anyone with mental illness in their family does not take offense.  I'm sure he didn't mean to offend, but he needs to start thinking more about what he says.  

    Parent
    Patronizing and wrong (none / 0) (#80)
    by marcellus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:14:28 PM EST
    This post and the ensuing comments are so incredibly offensive, I don't even have the energy to address all of them.

    Parent
    Mongoloid (none / 0) (#74)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:02:56 PM EST
    is not in itself an ugly word.  It was made that by being used in a hateful manner.  I was told my  baby was mongoloid.  Now, grown-up, she has Down's Syndrome.  Just a difference in usage over time: she'd be called a Down's baby today.

    Parent
    What an odd criticism (none / 0) (#15)
    by SpinDoctor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:00:51 PM EST
    I do not think you would have been happy if Obama argued that those with mental illness should not be allowed to possess guns.  There are a number of mental illnesses that would not disqualify someone from owning a gun.  However, distinguishing between the mentally "ill" and the "deranged" seems to me to be not only accurate, but sensitive to those with mental illness.  

    How is deranged a sensitive term? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:17:57 PM EST
    It is sensitive to the mentally ill (none / 0) (#31)
    by SpinDoctor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:26:25 PM EST
    He is clearly making a distinction between those who have a mental illness and those who are deranged.  The former may qualify to own a gun, the latter would not.

    Parent
    Meaning what? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:30:33 PM EST
    Mentally ill isn't a particularly useful term.

    1. Medical information is protected.  How do you know who is "mentally Ill" without access to records?

    2. Which mental illnesses qualify?  

    3. Who is responsible for screening potential gun owners?


    Parent
    I cringed a little (none / 0) (#40)
    by Lil on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:40:05 PM EST
    when he said it. Most folks with mental illness are not violent. Would have been better to say people who may be at risk of hurting themselves or others, and try not to label it.

    Parent
    I didn't see anything that suggested (none / 0) (#37)
    by digdugboy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:31:29 PM EST
    "mentally deranged" was pejorative. Is this a new PC language issue I just haven't caught up with yet?

    This whole post (none / 0) (#39)
    by marcellus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:39:08 PM EST
    Reminds me of this false criticism of physician-assisted suicide in which Jeralyn accused Obama of double-speak by using inartful language and praised  Clinton, when it turned out to be the exact opposite.  It was Obama who'd used language to correctly express the nuance of the issue and Clinton who was inartful.

    Parent
    Are You Deranged? (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:41:05 PM EST
    No you are just ill informed. Deranged, insane, crazy, stupid, ugly are all terms that suggest permanance.

    Remember Winston Churchill's famous quote:

    I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.

    Well being drunk is like being mentally ill, it can change. Being insane or deranged is like being ugly it is permanent.


    Parent

    It's a synonym for "mentally ill" (none / 0) (#43)
    by dianem on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:45:52 PM EST
    I haven't read any gun laws that suggest that "mentally deranged" people should not be allowed to purchase guns. There are a lot of people who argue that "mentally ill" people should not be allowed to purchase guns (rightly, imo). Apparently, Obama is using the two terms synonymously, implying that people with mental illnesses are "deranged". This is a real step backwards for societal acceptance of mental illness. I suspect that Obama has never dealt with mental illness in his family, or he would be more careful with his language. It's hard enough to get people with mental illnesses to accept that they need treatment without suggesting that they are incapable of thinking rationally. That kind of thinking went out of vogue a long time ago, or at least it should have.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#56)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:03:09 PM EST
    Colloquially Deranged is an extreme form of mental illness, there for not synonymous. Usually associated with violent outbursts, like shooting sprees.

    Parent
    Then he should stop using it as a synonyn (none / 0) (#96)
    by dianem on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:53:36 PM EST
    It's not brain surgery.

    Parent
    Community organizers and Community Development (none / 0) (#97)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:53:27 PM EST
    people would never use that term.  That is why I question his Community Organizing credentials.  He was not in the community.  99.9% must go through diversity training and they would have been taught to not use that term.  It's just not done.  

    Parent
    Basis in Federal Gun Laws (none / 0) (#47)
    by slr51 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:51:42 PM EST
    APPENDIX C
    HISTORY OF FEDERAL FIREARMS LAWS IN THE UNITED STATES

    VII.         The Assault Weapons Ban and Related Import Restrictions

            In September 1994, Congress passed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act which made it unlawful, with certain exceptions, to manufacture, transfer, or possess semiautomatic assault weapons. Congress had been presented with significant evidence demonstrating that these weapons were "the weapons of choice among drug dealers, criminal gangs, hate groups, and mentally deranged persons bent on mass murder,"(7)and concluded these guns were so dangerous they had no place in the civilian marketplace. The 1994 Act also made it unlawful to possess or transfer large capacity ammunition feeding devices, generally defined as a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/archive/opd/AppendixC.htm

    That Law Sunset (none / 0) (#48)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:54:50 PM EST
    Bush said he wanted to extend the assault weapons ban, but didn't work for passage and the Republican Congress never passed an extension.

    Parent
    Right, but (none / 0) (#53)
    by slr51 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:02:13 PM EST
    it is offered to show that the term has a fairly long standing historical basis in federal gun law and is being used appropriately within the context of the discussion. Remember, it was used by someone who has taught constitutional law who would be inclined to use a legally correct term.

    BTW Someone with absolutely no legal training was able to find this using Google for less than 2 minutes.

    Parent

    many terms that we can't use here (none / 0) (#60)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:11:49 PM EST
    and shouldn't use anywhere, really, are written into laws and are highly offensive and socially unacceptable.  One need only look into the Bush family stance on eugenics during the last century to see that perfectly "acceptable" words written into law are socially repugnant.

    But, the greater question here is: do you honestly think "deranged" is a good term for the Great Elocutor to be using here?  Surely, there are other words he could use to convey his meaning without insulting mentally challenged and mentally ill people, or lumping them in with statistically small but sensational cases.

    Parent

    I missed the start (none / 0) (#69)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:51:42 PM EST
    of this topic.  But as the parent of a mentally retarded* adult, I'd rather not hear the word  'challenged.' It is sometimes used to describe the retarded; but as my husband said once, our daughter has never been mentally challenged in her life.  (That's a joke, son!)  I don't mind the use of mentally disabled, but that covers a multitude of things.   Basically, I'd as soon a spade was called a spade; some people are retarded, some are mentally ill, and a few seem to qualify as disturbed or deranged--they are a danger to themselves or others.

    *(Down's syndrome--functions pretty well adaptively, but little speech because when she was young: "Down's syndrome children can not profit from speech therapy.")

    Parent

    you are just proving the point (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:14:05 PM EST
    it's a deprecated term -- one that is obsolete and in current disfavor-- its inclusion in a repealed statute can't justify it.

    Parent
    mental illness, defect, derangement (none / 0) (#55)
    by txpolitico67 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:02:40 PM EST
    words used to dismiss when a fellow human being has a brain that doesn't function normally.  Instead of being so flip about it, Barack should do his homework.  It was just within the past 40 years that homosexuality was removed as a mental disorder from the AMA.  So if he were gay and that classification was still being used, gays would not be allowed to buy guns in Barack's world.  I know I might be over-simplifying but still...his insulting language, just another example of Bush 43:  arrogant about his ignorance.

    And yes, JM is right.  It's disparaging.

    It looks like this may be the origin (none / 0) (#57)
    by 1jpb on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:04:06 PM EST
    of his terminology:

    Federal law prohibits anyone who has been "adjudicated as a mental defective," as well as those who have been involuntarily committed to a mental health facility, from buying a gun.

    In my opinion "deranged" (BO) is closer than "challenged" (HRC).

    I wouldn't be surprised if this, like the death with dignity stuff, is an example where BO is actually the more detailed and correct policy wonk when compared to HRC.  But, don't worry HRC supporters, the MSM will never challenge the propaganda that HRC is the policy expert with experience, never mind actual accomplishments.

    PS: I hope that those upset with BO have equal outrage over the CDS charge that seems to be popular with some HRC supporters.

    Now if you look (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:07:37 PM EST
    at the comments above everyone agrees that Clinton's term made them cringe also. But Obama's was really a little bit too much. But you've just got to say that his term is better somehow. Never mind that it is clearly not.  It's downright offensive. But you have to go and make it so that at the end his term is actually better!!  LOL.  

    Parent
    Well if I do have a problem (none / 0) (#64)
    by 1jpb on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:18:27 PM EST
    along the lines you're suggesting, I hope that my over the top BO support is more due to Kool-aid, than CDS.  Because if it's the derangement syndrome, I can't have any guns, according to BO.  And, things are tough, so I'm thinking about clinging to guns.

    If it's not obvious; I'm not serious, I know you didn't accuse me of Kool-aid or CDS (or messiah, cult, ...bot, etc.)  

    Parent

    A quick search of USASearch.gov (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by slr51 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:44:33 PM EST
    gives a thousands of references that use the term, many are legal/FBI etc. This seems to be an outrage that demands a thorough suspension of logic.

    https://www.judicial.state.sc.us/opinions/advSheets/no052008.pdf
    http://www.judicial.state.sc.us/opinions/displayOpinion.cfm?caseNo=4339
    http://www.kscourts.org/cases-and-opinions/opinions/supct/2002/20020712/87000.htm
    http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2004/section1summaries.htm
    http://supreme.state.az.us/courtserv/CrtProj/capsentguid/page49.htm#Castaneda


    Parent

    I'm relatively new to this site (none / 0) (#75)
    by 1jpb on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:04:19 PM EST
    but I can pass on a tip.  You'll want to attach your links to text.  The management deletes comments if the web address extend into the margins, yours barely fit in the comment box, if they were longer they would have stuck out the right side of the comment box instead of flowing into the next line down.

    To do this:
    -1 type text that will represent your link
    -2 highlight this text
    -3 copy address of site you want to link to
    -4 select the symbol that looks like a chain link above your comment box, fourth from the left
    -5 paste link into the pop-up dialog box

    There ya go!

    PS: thanks for those links.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#88)
    by slr51 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:11:54 PM EST
     did not know how do that.

    Parent
    you've made the same comment (none / 0) (#79)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:09:30 PM EST
    three times. It's chattering.
    Future attempts to make it again will be deleted.

    It's also a false one in my view.

    Parent

    Brilliant Post (none / 0) (#65)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:36:36 PM EST
    Well said. There are many reasons why TalkLeft is one of the most erudite blogs around. The hard of Jeralyn and BTD and insightful posts on politics as well these hard-hitting ones of the politics of crime. I learn more here than anywhere else.

    words words words (none / 0) (#66)
    by DEM on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:41:26 PM EST
    My 2 cents.  I'm a psychologist.  "Deranged" made me cringe; sounded like outdated talk or something I'd hear in a cult classic horror movie.

    "Challenged" made me think 'developmentally disabled' (mental retardation), but -- because of her hesitation -- I wondered whether Clinton was looking for a term that encompassed moderate/severe mental illness, mental retardation, and other organic brain disorders; i.e., something less sterile than 'diminished mental capacity' or other legalese.

    Agree! (none / 0) (#73)
    by alexei on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:59:28 PM EST
    Though Clinton's term wasn't quite right - I also believed she was trying for a better term.

    Obama's "mentally deranged' brought back memories of those old movies about 'Bedlam' (Bethlem Royal Hospital, popularly known as 'Bedlam') and those weren't pretty pictures.  For someone who is supposed to be nuanced, have a grasp for language and say that words matter, this was another case of horrific phrasing.

    Parent

    Disagree completely (none / 0) (#85)
    by marcellus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:36:00 PM EST
    OK, I talked to my sister who is a psychologist and not only did she confirm my suspicion, she even took them further.  This post is ludicrously, ridiculously, outrageously false and offensive.

    Mentally ill = everything in the DSM, from mild transitional depression due to grief to severe psychosis

    Mentally challenged = developmentally disabled.

    Mentally deranged = not a medical definition.  According to my sister, mentally deranged incorparates a severity and level of danger to identify the appropriate subset of mentally ill individuals with either severe psyschopathology or known danger risks, including suicidal and homicidal risk.  She would be concerned with pts with a history of suicidal intent because suicide attempts with guns are more likely to be completed regardless original level of intent.  

    PTSD can occur with a traumatic event with threat for injury or death.  In women with PTSD secondary to rape or violence, a common response is to assert control lost in the traumatic event, and they may feel safer having a gun which they don't intend to use.  These women, even if they don't intend to use it, may gain a sense of emotional safety.  After taking into balance that they don't have homicidal intents against their attacker and that they are properly trained to have a gun, such mentally ill should definitely be allowed to own a gun.  

    Clinton's definition of "mentally challenged" is so off it misses the mark completely. Obama's definition protects those from PTSD due to rape.  Taking this into account, the post made by Jeralyn and the comments that were encouraged were so offensive and thoughtless, that I am amazed how low people have sunk.  I realize that there are frequent incorrect  posts here, and it's "only politics" by anonymous posters but this is just a low, low development.  I can't check on every single post and I don't have the expertise to correct every attack. This is absolutely ridiculous.

    Parent

    Still (none / 0) (#90)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:04 PM EST
    It would have been wiser for both of them to use the legal term, mental defectives, because Obama's use of deranged seems like he is in a Peter Lorre film, and challenged seems well reaching in order to not offend. I am sure that many criminal masterminds who are deranged would be horribly offended that Hillary would suggest that they were mentally challenged.

    Parent
    this is completely off topic (none / 0) (#92)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:23:41 PM EST
    and you have been spamming the site with your comments, putting them on unrelated threads, etc. As well as engaging in personal insults. You are banned from the site.

    Parent
    Please let his speech writer know about this (none / 0) (#76)
    by TalkRight on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:05:29 PM EST
    They write all the talkingpoints for him...

    Just like yesterday he did not had the talkingpoints for some of the questions asked ... and he stood there like a dumb person...  but since TODAY morning he has been chirping a lot .. because he was supplied with fresh new talkingpoints!

    Deranged is a terrible word (none / 0) (#77)
    by caseyOR on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:08:03 PM EST
    Speaking as someone who has struggled for much of my life with mental illness, I find the word deranged incredibly offensive and insensitive. Whether Obama meant to or not that word conjures up visions of wild-eyed crazy people who must, for everyone's safety, be locked away and heavily medicated. Attitudes in this country toward the mentally ill are not as accepting as one might hope. And deranged is a word that does not help.

    While I appreciate that this a legal blog and many here are attorneys, citing statutes that employ the same language does not make it better.

    For someone who has built his campaign persona around the importance of words, Senator Obama is a mighty careless speaker.It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect him to choose his words, especially when describing an already marginalized group of people, with more care and sensitivity.

    he wasn't talking about you (none / 0) (#83)
    by moe21885 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:32:17 PM EST
    Unless, of course, you have plans to obtain a firearm and shoot people in the next few days.

    Parent
    Are you being flippant? (none / 0) (#86)
    by caseyOR on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:46:17 PM EST
    Pointing to someone after the fact, like the VA Tech shooter, is easy. Oh, he shot people. He's deranged. We can probably all agree that once someone has committed mass murder his/her guns should be taken away.

    How do we decide who among all the people with mental health issues is a danger? It is a complicated issue. It does little good to take away the guns after someone's shooting spree. How do we decide who is cut off from firearms before the fact? Who is too unbalanced to ever have a gun?  Do we exclude anyone who has ever been treated for a psychological problem, whatever that problem is?

    Parent

    "deranged" suggests someone who is (none / 0) (#81)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:18:30 PM EST
    clearly out of control, such that even someone with no training could recognize there was a problem.

    I'm pretty sure that someone who was mentally deranged could walk into a gun store to purchase a weapon, but would not, in the throes of "derangement" be likely to be sold anything.

    So, what's the proper way to describe someone who should probably never be sold a weapon that could kill?  

    Mentally ill is too broad - I think that is a term that could be applied to the millions of people on anti-depressants, for example, or the millions who have anxiety-panic disorder, or who are bi-polar, or obsessive-compulsive.  Are these people deranged?  

    I agree that "mentally deranged" is not the right term - "mentally ill" is closer, but too broad.  

    "Mentally unstable?"  

    wow (none / 0) (#82)
    by moe21885 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:31:26 PM EST
    People who commit mass acts of violence, like the VT massacre discussed last night, are pretty much by definition "mentally deranged". He's not using the term as a general stand-in for all mentally ill people, he's discussing that subset of mentally ill people that chooses to commit murder.

    Do you honestly think he was trying to insult people? Seriously.

    One in four (none / 0) (#87)
    by nellre on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:00:31 PM EST
    Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older -- about one in four adults -- suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.1 When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people

    Numbers Count: Mental Disorders in America

    He appears to be insulting quite a few folk this way.

    True dat! (none / 0) (#91)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:21:30 PM EST
    I agree 100%

    I am not inclined to see this as a big deal. (none / 0) (#99)
    by Joelarama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:23:45 AM EST
    I'm sure that Obama's words are offensive and worse (I admit I need education on this), but I do not think he would choose these words if called on them.

    I do not feel that Obama is a bad person, not at all.  (The McClurkin affair leaves many lingering questions as to his range of understanding and the lengths of his compassion for gay people, however.)

    I am at odds with him on some issues, and I am  appalled at many of his campaign tactics.  But, I see no issue here that really goes to our view of the man.