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Finally Someone Worries About Alienating Women Voters

By Big Tent Democrat

Via Kevin Drum, an expression of concern about alienating women:

Not so long ago, it was possıble for women, particularly young women, to share in the popular illusion that we were living in a postfeminist moment. . . . Then Hillary Clinton declared her candidacy, and the sexism in America, long lying dormant, like some feral, tranquilized animal, yawned and revealed itself. Even those of us who didn’t usually concern ourselves with gender-centric matters began to realize that when it comes to women, we are not post-anything.

The egregious and by now familiar potshots are too numerous (and tiresome) to recount. A greatest-hits selection provides a measure of the misogyny . . . It was hardly a revelation to learn that sexism lived in the minds and hearts of right-wing crackpots and Internet nut-jobs, but it was something of a surprise to discover it flourished among members of the news media. The frat boys at MSNBC portrayed Clinton as a castrating scold, with Tucker Carlson commenting, “Every time I hear Hillary Clinton speak, I involuntarily cross my legs,” and Chris Matthews calling her male endorsers “castratos in the eunuch chorus.” . . .

Will the "creative class" notice? Do not hold your breath.

< SUSA KY Poll: Clinton By 36 | The Inevitable Narrative >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Actually. . . (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:13:17 PM EST
    that's the creative class you're quoting!

    I think of them as (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:14:10 PM EST
    frat boys myself.

    [ Parent ]
    You called it!!!! (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:18:59 PM EST
    based on this I forgive your Obama affection.  Libertarian frat boys.  

    [ Parent ]
    The Boys on the Left (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:14:54 PM EST
    The 1960's feminist movement was greatly motivated by the ugly sexism in the "progressive" and "hip" left, the antiwar and civil rights movements. Read Robin Morgan's "Goodbye to All That."

    Feminism is as relevant today as it was then.

    The Robin Morgan Essay (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:25:30 PM EST
    It's the liberal cooptative masks on the face of sexist hate and fear, worn by real nice guys we all know and like, right? We have met the enemy and he's our friend. And dangerous.

    Here's a link.

    Read it.  It really captures the seething origins of early feminism.

    [ Parent ]

    The first women's movement in the 1840s (5.00 / 5) (#125)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:26:04 PM EST
    was motivated by the same thing -- male reformers relying on women to make the coffee and copies and clean up after them, in so many ways.  But allowing women only into abolitionist or temperance "auxiliaries" (overseen by men) rather than the regular ranks.  It was this treatment, refusing even to seat credentialed women delegates to a reformers' convention in 1840, that motivated the greatly respected Quaker minister Lucretia Coffin Mott and a young unknown named Elizabeth Cady Stanton to agree that there was need for a separate movement for women's rights.

    They were a bit busy but finally met in 1848 in Seneca Falls, New York to call the first women's rights convention  . . . and you know the rest.  And some good men were there as well.  But most of the boyz among the reformers more than 150 years ago only mocked the women and the very concept of women's rights and, most laughable of all, woman suffrage.

    I really think that women who thought that this was the "post-feminist" era -- young women who ignore hard data, who tell me that we won an ERA in the Constitution and that I must be wrong when I say not so, although it is one of my specialized work areas -- are getting a wake-up call . . . and that we may see societal impact again from this.

    [ Parent ]

    Worried about alienating women? Surely you jest,! (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by clio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:30:18 PM EST
     
    Women have been, and remain, the galley slaves in every reform movement.

    recall Stokely Carmichael's


    "The only position for women in SNCC is prone."

    That was in 1964.
    And what has changed?  
    Well, women's social "corral"  has been enlarged -  not taken down, enlarged* - but the fences are still there just further back.

    When a woman walks that much longer distance to the fence, as Senator Clinton has done, and tries to find the gate she, and we, discover that it's just as high, just as electrified, and just as well defended by male privilege as ever it was.


    Women are still only as free as the dominant men allow them to be.  A woman who refuses to recognize that will be mercilessly attacked, and if possible, destroyed.

    .
    .
    .
    * Carmichael's defenders point out he'd been drinking and that he worked well with women.  I reply "In vino veritas," and any privileged class is polite to the proles,  noblesse oblige, ya' know - as long as their status is not threatened.

    **Women have entered many professions but they still are vastly underrepresented in positions of power within those professions...and when was the last time you heard of women being encouraged to go into
    the skilled trades?
    the very specialized surgical specialties?      
    academic deanships?  
    CEO or CFO positions?  
    General officerships or flag rank in the services?
    I could go on and on.


    [ Parent ]

    Uh, I think that we're agreeing (none / 0) (#201)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:12:04 AM EST
    as I surely am not jesting.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, we're singing the same song (none / 0) (#205)
    by clio on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:02:32 AM EST
    although I think I'm older and therefore angrier.  Could be wrong on that.

    Irony is impossible to do in print, at least for me, and I should know better by now than to try it without snark tags.

    [ Parent ]

    sad sad sad...last night my young granddaughter (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:15:10 PM EST
    called me (she is 18) and said that every time she objects to something, her boyfriend (he is 21) calls her bi*chy...she said "Grandma I am not a bi*ch and I don't like that"....She was understandably upset...I hope and wish this country would address this issue but like BTD I won't hold my breath as most men don't seem to realize when they are doing it...

    I hope you told her to dump him (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:23:59 PM EST
    Respect is vital to a good relationship

    [ Parent ]
    I told her I would school her on how to (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:26:50 PM EST
    deal with sexism as she would encounter it alot in her life....she is coming this weekend for her tutoring session...Any suggestions accepted...:-)

    [ Parent ]
    My suggestion? (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:28:32 PM EST
    It's a bit profane, but just tell them:

    "Sorry about your p***s."

    [ Parent ]

    HA HA HA HA! (none / 0) (#161)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:45:31 PM EST
    {gasp, wheeze!)  VERY funny!  Wish I'd thought of that way back when!


    [ Parent ]
    You're (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:33:11 PM EST
    a kewl Grandma...

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks for all the comments and (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:39:33 PM EST
    when he called her one, her come back was "Bi*ch?, you ain't seen Bi*ch yet"....LOL...She is a very strong and independent young woman, and I think she will learn quite easily LOL.....

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, let me find the post... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:28:46 PM EST
    Can't find it. But you could tell her to use QCoFM.

    As in: B*tch? You're calling me a b*tch? Sweetie, I zoomed past b*tch when I was 14. I am so far past b*tch that you can just consider me Queen C*nt of F*ck Mountain.

    [ Parent ]

    Is she into books or movies? (none / 0) (#129)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:39:27 PM EST
    I can recommend either -- readable histories of women's rights and/or how to handle sexist crap still today . . . and historical "chick flicks" that my students have just so enjoyed.  I show excerpts in class, but some then go on their own to check out the full flicks.

    And many report back, also on their own but just because they want to share, that they invited mom, sisters, grandma, aunts, etc., to watch with them -- and that those historical "chick flick" nights are fond memories, in part because it's a way to get grandma and mom talking about how it used to be, and then students talking about how it is, and then cross-generational female bonding, counseling, etc.

    But fiction can accomplish much of the same -- and you know the list, from Working Girl and Nine to Five and Norma Rae back to almost anything with Hepburn, etc. :-)

    Others report that moms, sisters, grandmas, aunts, etc., take peeking looks into their books for the course and don't let them be sold back at the end of the semester, because they want to read their history, too.  And they like the  list of dozens more books on the syllabus for a reading list for years to come.  And that's just history -- which keeps repeating itself, as you say -- and there are many fine books, flicks, etc., on women today that are fascinating, including some on media portrayals of women in news and in ads that really may resonate with what she is facing.

    Btw, for a fast way to find lists of such resources and where to check them out, check women's studies links at local libraries, campuses, etc.  And, finally, I hauled out my old copy of The Assertive Woman for my daughter to read about what was happening in her workplace, relationships, etc.  And then we talked and talked. . . .


    [ Parent ]

    I took my 10 yr old granddaughter (none / 0) (#153)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:34:35 PM EST
    to see "Beatrix Potter" not long ago and had a long talk with her about what life was like for women in those days.  

    [ Parent ]
    oh thanks Cream...She has a reading (none / 0) (#155)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:35:23 PM EST
    comprehension problem and was in spec ed...She is smart as a whip but just cant comprehend unless someone reads it outloud for some reason...She however, types over 140 WPM and is going to study steno captioning for a possible career...so movies would be great if you have a list....She is one of those young ladies that is drop dead gorgeous and gets more than her share of attention from the opposite sex for all the wrong reasons...she is starting to resent it I have noticed...I just cannot believe we havent progressed at all since I was a girl many years ago....makes me sad...

    [ Parent ]
    that. I can barely type, and my thoughts get lost before the words are down!

    I've known many of my students who could answer EVERYTHING if I asked it aloud, but would get 40 percent on a written test... still smart as whips, but different formats for different folks.

    [ Parent ]

    Ah, athyrio -- that's my daughter (none / 0) (#170)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:02:21 PM EST
    who is just not a reader, either.  And is gorgeous and great in every important way.  But she loves movies and tv and gets a lot from them, thus that option -- and I'm even getting her into documentaries, like last week's on the mass rapes of women in the Congo.  My daughter was so moved, and it meant quite a discussion.

    If your grrl likes tv, great reruns of Designing Women?  I'm especially fond of Julia's tirade in season three, the "First Amendment" episode.  She cuts to the core of the racism vs. sexism debate like no one can but a Sugarbaker. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    That rant was written by (none / 0) (#179)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:32:17 PM EST
    friends of the Clintons, they owned and wrote the show. Too bad Hillary can't get an endorsement from Julia Sugarbaker. :D

    [ Parent ]
    I recall that -- btw, re Hollywood support (none / 0) (#181)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:45:29 PM EST
    I just read a report that Hollywood money has absolutely split, only $300 apart amid millions, between Obama and Clinton.  The Clintons still have good and loyal friends there -- and I bet that you also can recall that they helped to give us a heck of an inauguration to watch.  I could enjoy seeing one like that again. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    There Was Also... (none / 0) (#187)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:28:09 PM EST
    A great one abt women in ministry that was VERY powerful...Great show.  And yes, the writers were from Arkansas...

    Hey,there's always XENA!!!!  :-)

    The Hours is another VERY good movie for showing through the years how it has been for women.

    [ Parent ]

    I suspect (none / 0) (#193)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:26 AM EST
    that part of my love for the series Star Trek Voyager was the number of kick-a$$ woman on the show. Just try calling Captain Janeway, Seven of Nine, or B'lanna Torres a bit*h and see how far you get.

    [ Parent ]
    Then there's Anglachel's slogan (none / 0) (#192)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:47:25 AM EST
    which is:

    "You call me a b**ch as if that's a BAD thing."

    [ Parent ]

    two things (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by DandyTIger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:40:48 PM EST
    One is tell her that if she hears something from a man that she would not accept from a woman, then that's probably sexism.

    And two, the dual of that, for her male friends: when they react in that sort of way, they should think if a male friend was saying something similar would they react the same way.

    Of course adjust for type of relationship as appropriate (friend vs. more than friend subject matters/issues).

    There are probably some good role playing exercises out there to uncover this sort of thing.

    [ Parent ]

    Yep, the "test" much talked about (none / 0) (#131)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:44:52 PM EST
    in "the Year of the Woman" -- remember that, almost two decades ago, ha?! -- and the Hill/Thomas hearings.  That is, imagine your wife or mother is in the office with you, mister.  That usually would stop, before they even started, conversations with a young woman and coworker about porn flicks or a certain sort of hair on a certain sort of cola.

    And re the relationship test, i.e., would you think it okay for a girlfriend to say that, do that, etc., to you? it was one that finally worked for my daughter and opened her eyes to what was happening.  Good advice.  If only my mom had given it to me. :-)


    [ Parent ]

    Male Approval (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:30:56 PM EST
    This is a way of erasing women - too angry, too silly, too unimportant.  In this case, it is also abusive.  I hope she can learn to live without the approval of abusive (or non-abusive) men; so many women - much older - are still stuck there.

    I'm glad she's got you for guidance.

    [ Parent ]

    literally erasing her from this race (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by dotcommodity on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:49:56 PM EST
    to quote the Kevin Drum piece
    As the Pennsylvania primary nears, pundits and party members are again, as they did before Ohio and Texas, calling for Clinton to step down. ("The model of female self-sacrifice is deeply embedded in our culture," notes Bennetts.)


    [ Parent ]
    They are all very busy finding other jobs for her (5.00 / 6) (#71)
    by jerry on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:00:56 PM EST
    It's kind of amusing to see them tell her she would be a better Senate Majority Leader, or a better Governor, or anything but President, and that she should step down now.

    However, it's not just the men doing this, many of our "feminist" bloggers have been equally guilty of telling Clinton what she needs to do, calling her names, and deciding how they could never be a Democrat after this.  It's not rare at all to find "feminist" bloggers and pundits calling Clinton the most vile of names. cough Randi Rhodes cough.

    I find it amusing, because on many blogs I speak out against "kneejerk" feminism overreaches, e.g. Duke.  And so on many blogs, I have been called troll, concern troll, misogynist and worse.

    But I support Hillary Clinton, and I am relatively confident I am consistent: for 30 years now I have identified as a feminist.  Just not a knee jerk one.  I try not to be a knee jerk liberal either.  And given what we've seen the past six months or so, I would hope we can all see why we should refrain from knee jerk arguments.

    [ Parent ]

    they also try to qualify their sexism... (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:03:15 PM EST
    ...by saying that they'd be happy with a woman president, but not that woman. (How many times have you heard Clinton supporters say they'd be happy with a black president, but not that African-American? Never.)

    Many of the same Obama folks will then add insult to injury and suggest that Obama pick Sebellius or Napolitano for v.p. to placate Clinton voters--as if her supporters vote on the basis of XX chromosomes and nothing else.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually (none / 0) (#78)
    by Nadai on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:05:57 PM EST
    Amanda Fortini wrote that.  Kevin Drum just quoted it.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank God she has a grandmother (none / 0) (#142)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:06:17 PM EST
    who saw the damage and didn't just sail through it like the boomers.  Germain Greer is gone from the shelves, but needs to be printed again.

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm...I'd Say (none / 0) (#166)
    by Blue Jean on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:51:53 PM EST
    play her this song.  It always cheers me up when I'm down, though I've gotten some funny looks when I've sung to myself.

    [ Parent ]
    The creative class... (5.00 / 8) (#5)
    by white n az on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:16:45 PM EST
    completely blew it by not speaking out a long time ago when the main stream media was clubbing Hillary.

    Instead, it served their purpose because she wasn't their choice.

    Now they want to lock the barn after the horses are all gone?

    Actually the way they drummed us all off of (5.00 / 8) (#65)
    by dotcommodity on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:54:26 PM EST
    dailykos, hootin and hollerin with every new GBCW departure, has made it clear they are political neophytes who seem to have no idea they need our votes.

    Plus it is now a hollow, boring place for the commentariat, with so many terrific writers dispersed throughout the internets...

    [ Parent ]

    The things that have happened (5.00 / 11) (#80)
    by joanneleon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:06:10 PM EST
    in recent months are beyond belief.  I have been beside myself over it, much as I try not to be.

    I still think there has been an infiltration over there.  I used to think that was the main reason for all the garbage against Hillary that's tolerated.  I thought surely the people I thought I knew and respected would never allow this to go unchecked.  And I'm not talking about minor things, and I don't tend to be overly sensitive that way.  I'm talking about eggregious things, and an overall hatred that oozes from cracks all over the place.  

    Then I started seeing outrageously unfair treatment by people whom I had previously admired or respected.  But it was still a minority of long time users.  What really got to me was when I'd see horrific comments that were uprated and allowed to stand with no dissension.  It happened more and more often.  Front pagers who I always thought were champions for women let it go too.  That was when I knew there were big, big issues.  I'm still trying to explain to myself how this could have happened in a place where so many exceptionally good people (so I thought) gather.  I'm completely bewildered by the whole thing.

    [ Parent ]

    Viral marketing through facebook... (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by citizen53 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:34:04 PM EST
    and texting.  So much of Obama support is a product of these phenomena.  It affected Daily Kos.  These people are in touch, but so lacking in historical awareness that it is frightening.

    Also, the hip hop influence has moved society backwards in the way people perceive others, especially in disagreement.

    [ Parent ]

    They are in touch with each other (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:34:31 PM EST
    That makes them feel powerful. They have no clue that they are just big fish in a little pond. They have no idea how tremendously big the "big pond" really is. When I was 25, I thought I knew everything. Every 25 year old I've ever met felt the same way. As I got older I knew less and less. Funny how that works.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep. (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by citizen53 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:48:13 PM EST
    I love when they tell me about how things were when I actually lived through them, too.

    [ Parent ]
    Get off my lawn! (none / 0) (#126)
    by jerry on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:26:13 PM EST
    but so lacking in historical awareness that it is frightening.

    I agree with you, but this is largely a "Get off my lawn!" post. :)

    [ Parent ]

    Sexism. (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:17:43 PM EST
    Sexism is funny that way, when you call someone on it, they accuse you of being a feminist.  I say accuse, cause many consider it derogatory.  I still don't understand that one.  

    I think it was always there in (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:23:17 PM EST
    conservative thought and to a lesser degree in liberal circles in the past.  However, the intensity with which the conservatives attacked  the changes in the social structure after the 60's brought it to a head.  Women had not strayed too much prior to that but abortion and civil rights really was a lightening rod.  The rise of Bill Clinton and his "liberal" wife threw them into spasms of fear and they worked overtime to destroy the liberalization of society.  So how did the liberals buy into it?  They bought into the right wing meme that Hillary was a dominatrix (and what young man wouldn't fear that, even Tucker Carlson!). It was a catalyst to the latent sexism in the liberal males and females.

    [ Parent ]
    Some people are oversensitive (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:43:30 PM EST
    There are stories, some at least partially valid, about some women who claim that any sex is rape because women have so little power that they can't legitimately consent. Or women who object to having doors held for them (I say thank you - but then, I hold the door open for the person behind me, regardless of gender). I'm on a college campus right now, and some of the poster's about women's rights make me cringe. I want to be equal, not separate, not better. Just equal.

    My "equality" radar has been turned down to low in the last few years, but this election has been a real wake-up call. The most subtle references to race were trumpeted as blatant racism, while totally overt sexism was laughed at. This is wrong. You don't insult women of Clinton's accomplishments the way she has been insulted. I've realized that women are still very much at the back of the bus.  Those who think that we are "privileged" if we move around as second class citizens in a white world are like the people who fought civil rights because (they said) black people were happier in their own neighborhoods and stores. These people think that you can have different standards for men and women and still have equality. You can't. Separate AND Equal is as much nonsense for women as it was for blacks.

    [ Parent ]

    If you're not a feminist, you're not a progressive (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by angie on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:03:24 PM EST
    I read that anglachel's blog. It's by Melissa McEwan.  Truer words were never spoken:

    Feminism is an integral part of progressivism.
    If you're not a feminist, you're not a progressive.
    No matter how much you hate Bush.
    No matter how much you hate the Iraq war.
    No matter how much you hate our current torture policy.
    No matter how much you want to restore habeas corpus.
    No matter how much you're totally going to vote for the Democrat in November.
    If you're not a feminist, you're not a progressive.
    You're a fauxgressive.
    End of story

    [ Parent ]

    I never miss (none / 0) (#194)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:28:21 AM EST
    anglachel now that I found the blog. And this particular post I think sums it up quite nicely. I copied it, enlarged it, printed it out, framed it and hung it on the wall beside my computer.

    My oldest granddaughter has now done the same thing.

    [ Parent ]

    The "Creative Class" will notice (5.00 / 12) (#8)
    by myiq2xu on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:18:38 PM EST
    women voters when they do the post-mortum describing how McCain won.

    Heh, sad but true. (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:20:20 PM EST
    Seems there's an equation 'they' are leaving out of "the Math".

    [ Parent ]
    They will notice (5.00 / 15) (#23)
    by rooge04 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:26:35 PM EST
    when we stay home. They will notice when 55% of Democratic women that support Clinton are not all there in November. They will notice at McCain's swearing in. Then they will notice. And then they will blame it on Hillary.  They will notice it when it's too late.  It's too late now, frankly. The misogyny that I've seen is something I never thought I'd see from Democrats.  Lately Republicans look less sexist.  When a sitting female President is called a f*c* w* and liberal boys try to justify it, you know there's acceptable sexism.   Obama will lose the votes of women like me---young and old--who are sick to death of being taken for granted. Taken for granted and insulted at every turn.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (5.00 / 7) (#32)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:39:08 PM EST
    The f*c*w incident removed any trace of a doubt for me. I will never look at these so-called progressives the same way again. They are not on my side.

    [ Parent ]
    You highlight something (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:55:39 PM EST
    That offensive remark was made by a women. Some of the worst sexists are female.

    [ Parent ]
    There's always women who want to be one (5.00 / 7) (#101)
    by derridog on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:32:55 PM EST
    of the boys and they think that this will happen if they attack other women and take on male attitudes.  I've seen this happen over and over.   Never works, I'm afraid --or else, it only works when they are young and attractive and still have sexual power.  When they get older (or get married and have babies) they suddenly find exactly how the system is rigged.

    [ Parent ]
    MoDo (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:53:55 PM EST
    and Arianna suffer greatly with HDS.

    [ Parent ]
    There were woman anti-suffragists, too (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:52:19 PM EST
    and with a sizeable organization, offices, etc., that sent them out of the home to tell women to stay in the home and stop talking about getting the vote.

    Later investigations found that much of the funding of those groups came from corporate interests, which knew (long before focus groups, polls, etc.) what women would do to them with the vote.  As they did, with many of the laws won against child labor and for workers' compensation and the like -- and much of what went into force in the New Deal, thanks to the first woman in a presidential cabinet, Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins . . . who had witnessed the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire in 1911, almost a 9/11 then for women.

    I wonder if we will see the same, someday, about the sources for the anti-Clinton/anti-women forces that we see now.  We need to always ask "who is this for?  who benefits most?"  And we need to remember that behind every race or gender war is a class war.

    [ Parent ]

    They'll notice. But the post-mortem will (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Joelarama on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:30:48 PM EST
    go something like this:

    "It's Hillary's fault that Obama lost."

    John Aravosis has been helpful enough to say this explicitly, in advance.  Kos has implied it on several occasions (before I stopped reading him).

    An aside, why don't we go back to the more accurate, 1990s term for the "creative class":  "the overclass." Overclass is more accurate.

    [ Parent ]

    Naw, it will be the trendy thing (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by myiq2xu on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:47:44 PM EST
    for the kewl kidz to talk about.

    "The Democratic party hates women."

    They're already explaining how racist we are.

    [ Parent ]

    I place a lot of responsibility (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by MichaelGale on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:50:50 PM EST
    on the blogger and the other guy. I was an Edwards supporter and liked Obama and I liked Hillary. However, when this all started ,the Hillary hate, I just got so angry and disgusted. Decision made.

    So they cannot blame Hillary and be little victims here.  The share the responsibility if women go to McCain. or don't vote.

    Of course, they and the DNC, believe this will never happen. They believe that everyone will be one big happy Democratic Party and vote anyway.

    I am from Florida and if our votes are not counted again, I think the Democrats are done in Florida ...period.

    Lord.  I used to be a Yellow Dog Democrat, just like my Dad. Things certainly have changed.

    [ Parent ]

    My mom and dad both were dyed-in-the-wool (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:54:57 PM EST
    and strike-me-dead-if-I-don't Dem voters, too.  And worked toward the goals of both civil rights movements of their eras -- for AAs and for women.

    Seeing the Dems today, my parents would be so anguished.  I'm almost glad that they're gone, off to a far better place where everybody wins. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Ironically, (5.00 / 8) (#73)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:02:52 PM EST
    Many female Clinton supporters in that over-the -hill 35+ age group are indeed working in the information-era, higher-education-needed workforce (the so-called "creatvie class") but do not congratulate ourselves quite so much on our membership.  It took too much hard work to get here.

    [ Parent ]
    I am one of those, indeed, (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:17:08 PM EST
    and I put up with a lot of BS to get where I am.

    [ Parent ]
    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Jgarza on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:03:20 PM EST
    if they do that, womens rights will suffer probably more than any other.  

    [ Parent ]
    From what I've seen (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:38:08 PM EST
    Obama is no guarantor of women's rights. Abstinence education, finding a "compromise" with anti-abortionists, almost voting for Roberts - Obama is not a friend to women's rights. I have never seem him speak out about sexism, andhe's had plenty of chances.

    He's not working for my vote. He's taking it for granted.

    Boy is he gonna be surprised.

    [ Parent ]

    If it is him, they think we will just come home (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:01:54 PM EST
    As dutiful women do. But this time, I don't think so. I could be wrong, but I am not afraid of not voting this time. Never missed a vote since Carter, but if I do not believe that BHO is the Democrat who would make a good President, I will probably pass for another 4 years. The reasons, there are two. First of all, it would show the sexist men that we should not be taken for granted just because someone snaps their fingers. And secondly, I don't want a Democratic President who I feel might be equal to the one we have already. He really is not all that liberal. He is a Centralist. I read up on him on how he got to be Harvard Law Review President and I notice the same tactics he uses now. He goes in and states the obvious to disarm the other side before they can state it. Then he says how he understands their anger, disappointment, etc, and agrees with them. They they decide he is middle of the road. It seems to work. That was what he was saying when he mentioned his age and race the other night. He was saying the obvious that people were thinking.

    BTW, I am not worried that the women's rights might lose anything because that has been a threat for a very long time. A Woman President would be good. Why are American men so afraid? They even have had women leaders in the Middle East and Asia where sometimes the women are 2nd class citizens. What do the men think that a Woman President would do for them? Like they will have to split the chores or something. And the remark is not aimed at sensible males on this site. There are many men who don't feel threatened by a Women President or Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by sas on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:04:47 PM EST
    He does not have my vote, nor can he get my vote.  I recommend that we women not vote for him together.

    This is the only way we have power.

    If we capitulate, they will take us for granted again.

    I have no fear for abortion rights or the Supreme Court.  I will not be held hostage.


    [ Parent ]

    Not true (none / 0) (#99)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:31:52 PM EST
    I find Obama and McCain about equal on that one issue.

    [ Parent ]
    Women's rights suffer? (none / 0) (#195)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:48:02 AM EST
    How much more than seeing that misogyny is not only accepted in the party many of us have thought we were a part of and supported for many years but that it is mainstream. Racism is a mighty no-no if even thought to be present. Sexism? Not a problem.

    [ Parent ]
    The commenters on Kevin Drum's (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Boston Boomer on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:50:42 PM EST
    post seem pretty unconcerned.  They are living in such a bubble that they don't realize how much anger there is among women.  And they completely discount the working class reactions to Obama's condescension too.  I wonder how they think they can get him elected?  Personally, I will never vote for Obama, and I'm even starting to think about not voting for any Democrats downticket either.  I know I'm not going to vote for John Kerry.


    [ Parent ]
    I emailed some of my down-ticket (none / 0) (#139)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:57:39 PM EST
    Dem candidates some questions.  So far, those who replied still will get my vote.  And let it be said that in some cases, I will be voting for a man instead of a woman.  It's not about their genitalia.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah. They'll talk about how stupid we are. (none / 0) (#96)
    by derridog on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:27:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I think feminist like liberal, the right (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:19:40 PM EST
    wing has made sure to make unpopular as words...When the right wing feels threatened by something they try to demonize it...

    Sort of like (none / 0) (#14)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:23:51 PM EST
    small town, USA?  Gunz and Gawd?

    [ Parent ]
    Yep. "Feminazi"----coined by (none / 0) (#58)
    by vicsan on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:50:34 PM EST
    none other than the Conservatives and Rush Limbaugh:

    Feminazi (also spelled femi-Nazi or femme-nazi) is a pejorative term used to characterize feminists. It is used predominantly in North America by social conservatives to refer to feminists whom they perceive as intolerant of conservative views.[1][2][3][4] The term does not relate to the National Socialist Women's Organization or any other organization of women who served Nazi Germany.

    Popularized by Rush Limbaugh

    The term was popularized by conservative talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, who credited his friend Tom Hazlett, a professor of law and economics at George Mason University, with coining the term.[4] Limbaugh originally stated that the word "feminazi" not only referred to an extreme feminist but to a woman whose goal was that there should be as many abortions as possible, saying at one point that there were fewer than twenty-five true feminazis in the U.S.[7]

    Though Limbaugh has claimed these limits to the definition of the term, in practice he has employed it in a much wider context. For example, on April 26, 2004, Limbaugh said, "Some funny comments from the femi-Nazis at the pro-abortion rally in Washington yesterday. Not many. It didn't take long for us to put together our montage, but we'll let you hear it when we come back." Limbaugh referred to the March for Women's Lives.[8] The march's organizers estimated that 1.15 million people attended.[9]

    Limbaugh has also used the term to refer to members of the National Center for Women and Policing, the Feminist Majority Foundation, and the National Organization for Women -- which has over 500,000 members.[10][11][12]

    Among those named as "Femi-Nazis" was noted Women's Gender and Sexuality scholar, and author of "Reading Oprah: How Oprah's Book Club Changed the Way America Reads," Cecilia Konchar Farr.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi

    [ Parent ]

    The most annoying thing (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:20:54 PM EST
    Men will interrupt. This is especially annoying at work.
    You can see it on TV, when female commentators are trying to get a point across.
    It's like we don't have anything worth hearing to say.
     

    Or they'll be like Tweety (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:24:14 PM EST
    and denigrate the women commentators by telling them they're beautiful instead of responding to the substance of their remarks.

    [ Parent ]
    Personally, I'm waiting for the day (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Joelarama on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:10 PM EST
    when Tweety calls Rachel Maddow "handsome."  The man really has no filter.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm waiting for the day... (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:55:45 PM EST
    ...when an unattractive woman gets a position of power on any news channel.

    [ Parent ]
    It might just be more of a style thing (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by BachFan on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:03:10 PM EST
    I've noticed -- actually, it's been brought to my attention by others! -- that I tend to interrupt people, when I'm engaged in animated discussions (and I'm female).  It's something that both of my siblings (one male, one female) and my mother do as well ... only my father is polite enough not to interrupt.  I'm trying to change that habit -- to wait until someone's finished making his/her point before jumping in with both feet -- but it's suprisingly hard to break the habit.

    [ Parent ]
    I interrupt also (none / 0) (#184)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:03:42 PM EST
    all the time.  I suspect part of it is I do not often get a chance for conversation (live alone).  But a big part is that all my family tended to get excited and just had to break in.  I've one child that does not appreciate that trait--but it is truly part of me. (I do try not to in public.)

    [ Parent ]
    You are on to something here. (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:49:24 PM EST
    Interrupting and talking over is prevalent in business and male dominated occupations like medicine once was. There has been much wailing about how women are taking over much of medicine (not the high paying specialites, however) but actually these women LISTEN to their patients.  I know from personal experience.

    [ Parent ]
    that's especially detrimental in schools (none / 0) (#50)
    by DandyTIger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:47:56 PM EST
    This seems to be  behavior learned at a pretty early age, and of course learned behavior from teachers that permit that same problem. And if course this is why all girl schools have a lot of merit.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL (none / 0) (#114)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:07:40 PM EST
    So true. I truly don't even think they realize it sometimes. But, I will not tolerate that. I have learned some time ago to just call them on it and tell them they are being rude for interrupting in a very nice way of course. heh.

    [ Parent ]
    Saw it on the debates, see it in the media (none / 0) (#140)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:01:41 PM EST
    and I just know that there are graduate students out there in this great land of ours who are analyzing videotapes and coming up with studies that will call for a new edition of Tannen's and others' books on gender and communication.  And when we read them, we will say . . . saw that, said so, was ignored when I did -- and interrupted when I tried to make that point about the 2008 campaign. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah...and to hear so-called progressives... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by citizen53 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:21:57 PM EST
    show that they are no better than Archie Bunker.

    We needed the ERA back then and still need it now.

    What a good reminder (none / 0) (#115)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:09:29 PM EST
    The ERA Amendment. At the time, I could not believe that the men would not pass it. It was so important to us but it just blew away. I had completely forgotten about it. Excellent example.

    [ Parent ]
    Women were the majority of voters then (none / 0) (#141)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:05:20 PM EST
    too -- when the mostly men of Congress did pass it, after almost half a century, and it went to the states.  And it went until my state was the first to feel the force of Phyllis Schlafly, remember her?

    She's still around, still sending out her newsletter, still arguing against any effort to revive the ERA campaign -- including last year, when women in Congress brought it forward again, btw.  It made a great photo op on the steps of the Capitol that day; I saved it.

    Stay tuned, and let's see what younger women do, if enough are awakened to the reality that we haven't hit the "post-feminism" period yet.

    [ Parent ]

    Unfortunately, I do not see younger women (none / 0) (#147)
    by FLVoter on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:20:54 PM EST
    taking up "the cause".  Alot of the younger women I have met (21, 22) do not even admit that there is a problem.  What happened?  When I was that age I became a member of NOW.  Without these young women getting on board, the chances of ERA passing in my lifetime seems remote.

    [ Parent ]
    They'll notice (5.00 / 8) (#17)
    by Nadai on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:24:03 PM EST
    when it hurts them personally and not before.  And even then, most of them will find a way to blame women for being alienated.  It's our role in life to swallow whatever gets shoved down our throats, and if we won't, well, then, see "castrating scold" above.  I find almost as much day-to-day sexism among "progressive" men as I do among conservative men.  Only the justifications are different.

    IACF (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:25:39 PM EST
    if Obama tanks before the end of June.

    IACF that he said what he said in SF.

    IACF that he gets completely trounced by McCain.

    We're already seeing exactly what you're saying. :-(

    [ Parent ]

    I wonder what Marcos would say if (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:14:17 PM EST
    all those sexist horrible remarks were made against his wife or little girl. He should be happy that Hillary is paving the way for his daughter to be a President herself someday.

    [ Parent ]
    personally (5.00 / 8) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:24:24 PM EST
    I think Tucker Carlson just wants a excuse to cross his legs.


    That is funny! (none / 0) (#27)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:29:23 PM EST
    I do think you have the right notion.

    [ Parent ]
    These sexist men (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:28:03 PM EST
    were raised by mothers who probably allowed themselves to be treated that way by their husbands; or they were girls raised in an environment where that notion was tolerated.  It is, certainly a struggle that continues to be fought.  Women must learn to demand their rights and should stand up for any one whose rights are being violated in the best way they can.  Right now, it is our voice in this election.  I think I read somewhere where Sen. Obama would not let Michelle take a job until he approved of it.  Sexism is deeply ingrained in most men.

    I mostly agree but.... (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:12 PM EST
    ...some of these sexist boys were also raised by feminist mothers. Its the culture and the pop media. Parents can only do so much to mitigate the effects of the pervasive misogyny these boys see in video games, movies, or hear in the popular music they listen to. This is just as true for boys as it is for girls, although it has been more widely recognized as harmful to girls. For boys, if they don't end up serial killers or rapists many people assume that they have not been effected, but they have been effected, particularly in their relationships with women.

    [ Parent ]
    That's true (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by stillife on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:52:57 PM EST
    I hate to say it, but my son is a bit of a sexist.  He grew up listening to hip-hop and OK, I did wait on him a little bit so it's partially my own fault.   Of course, he's also a joker so he'll make outrageous statements just to get a rise out of his sister and me.  He's kind of a marshmallow inside his tough exterior and is extremely devoted to his girlfriend.  And he's voting for Hillary next week, so I guess I did something right!

    [ Parent ]
    and didn't realise how bad this was till I told the husband that I didn't ever want a son - the world didn't need another sexist pig in it. Poor husband - he's as big a feminist as I am (no thanks to his upbringing, it's really odd how he's turned out) and he didn't know what to say. (I guess it was hard to say anything after watching another inane sexist remark from another inane male TV anchor.)

    [ Parent ]
    I have three (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by joanneleon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:46:06 PM EST
    and none of them show signs of being sexist so far.  My oldest (a teenager) chose Hillary before I did because he believes we need someone who will have the resources to fix the things Bush has broken as quickly as possible and because he respects experience.  I was a strong Edwards supporter and it took me quite awhile to choose another candidate after he dropped out.  My son had chosen Hillary weeks before I came around.  She remains his first choice, even after being accused of racism at school simply because he didn't choose Obama and even though he hasn't a racist bone in his body, as evidenced by the broad assortment of friends he has.

    They have no sisters, so they're a bit baffled by girls and women sometimes, but they have not the slightest bit of hesitation of choosing a woman for president.  Obviously, I'm happy about this.  My oldest is for Hillary, my middle one leans to Obama, and my youngest is undecided and the other day he said "Mom, as long as it's a democrat, I'm good."  I support all of them in their choices.

    [ Parent ]

    My son is a tremendous sexist -utterly unconscious (none / 0) (#105)
    by derridog on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:36:51 PM EST
    of it, of course, and he was raised by my daughter and I. My husband died when he was 12.  

    [ Parent ]
    I'm home free! (none / 0) (#182)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:55:10 PM EST
    My son is gay...and his older sisters would have drowned him in his bathtub if he'd dissed them (they are a lot older).

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly. Our entertainment culture (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:55:07 PM EST
    is so laden with testosterone. It is so pervasive.  And we have a "gung=ho" president to boot.  The whole violent tough guy is absorbed by kids from a young age.

    [ Parent ]
    Got a link for this? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:32 PM EST
    I think I read somewhere where Sen. Obama would not let Michelle take a job until he approved of it.

    Sexism is deeply ingrained in most men.

    How sexist of you!

    [ Parent ]
    Obama's web site (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:46:10 PM EST
    For the Michelle had to get his permission to take a job story. It's in a magazine article. His web site is such a mess I'm not going to do the work to find it again - but it is true. She was offered a job at city hall and she told her prospective boss Barry had to approve before she could accept.

    [ Parent ]
    No link, (1.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:28:12 PM EST
    posting rumors

    And sexist to boot.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#128)
    by Steve M on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:36:08 PM EST
    Here is the link.

    In the summer of 1991, Valerie Jarrett, then Mayor Richard Daley's deputy chief of staff, interviewed a young Sidley Austin attorney named Michelle Robinson. After the 90-minute conversation, Jarrett offered her a job, but Robinson called back a day later, not to say "yes" but "maybe." First, she said, her fiance wanted to meet Jarrett.

    By that time, Obama the independent-minded community activist had privately expressed his political ambitions. This job would put his wife-to-be squarely in the offices of the man whose father had perfected the Democratic machine.

    "My fiance wants to know who is going to be looking out for me and making sure that I thrive," Jarrett recalled Robinson telling her.

    So the three of them -- the prospective boss, the job applicant and the man she would marry a year later -- piled into a booth at a seafood restaurant in the Loop and got to know each other over a long dinner.

    At the end of the evening, Jarrett turned to Barack and asked, "Well, did I pass the test?" Obama smiled, put his head down, closed his eyes and said, "Yeah, you passed the test."



    [ Parent ]
    Thanks (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:21:31 PM EST
    I get so tired sometimes of Obama people who demand cites for everything, then when you knock yourself out to provide them, dismiss them or don't read them.

    Hey Coyote -