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Clinton's Electability Argument From Hillary Hating Sources

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

Brad Delong writes:

The best -- what I think is actually the only -- "electability" argument for Hillary Clinton was made by Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo . . .

Well, Prof DeLong, I am sure it was inadvertent of Marshall to do this. Bob Somerby points out that in fact what Marshall was doing was forwarding David Sirota's "Hillary Is Evil And Deliberately Appealing To Racists" meme. But it is worth examining what DeLong makes of the theory. More . . .

DeLong writes:

The argument that Wilentz should have made is that this spring's primary results show that white reluctance to vote for an African-American candidate could be a real and important factor this November -- and potentially key in these five states, all of them crucial to Democratic hopes. Superdelegates should therefore make a coldblooded calculation to cater to the prejudices of the American electorate in swing states by choosing Clinton over Obama.

(Emphasis supplied.)Um, why not argue that voters in key states for November are more likely to vote for Hillary than Obama in a general election? Because there is not bile you can spew at Hillary clinton if you do it that way. Let me give you an example of how I can turn Obama's electability argument into a perjorative:

Superdelgates should vote for Obama because the Media and part of the electorate still accept sexism and miosogyny as legitimate. Particularly in states like [take your pick - Western states, Virginia, etc.] Superdelegates should therefore make a coldblooded calculation to cater to the prejudices of the American electorate by choosing Obama over Clinton.

You see how easy it is? Brad Delong is a smart fellow. But he too just engages in Clinton Hate as a matter of course. It is one of the most remarkable developments of this campaign season. The easy resort to Clinton Hate from people like Josh Marshall and Brad Delong. And they sem oblivious to it.

Let me conclude that I too thought poorly of Sean Wilentz's argument that DeLong is responding to. But I also think extremely poorly of Brad Delong's response, as its Clinton Hate is palpable. folks like DeLong and Marshall have sacrificed a lot of credibility in this campaign in my eyes. They obviously do not care of course. But I will point it out nonetheless.

POST SCRIPT -

On the substance, DeLong finally gets to the issue at the end of his piece:

Which Democratic candidate, Obama or Clinton, has a better chance of carrying Michigan, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Oregon, Wisconsin, New Hampshire, Iowa, New Mexico, Florida, Ohio, Nevada, Missouri and Colorado against John McCain in November?

My answer, as I have described in many posts based on demographics and polling data, Clinton does better in MI, PA, Ohio and Florida. Obama does better in Minnesota, Oregon, Wisconsin, Iowa, NM, Nevada and Colorado. Obama also does better in Viriginia.

Missouri is a wash. DeLong continues:

And, alas, the arguments that Clinton would fare worse in those states, and that she is less electable generally than Obama, are numerous and distressingly powerful

Noooo, only for SOME of those states is that true. In others - particularly the BIG CONTESTED STATES, Clinton fares better.

But why does Obama do better in the other states? I think DeLong is right on that:

* She is a Clinton, and hence will energize the Republican base against her nationwide as nobody else can.

* The press corps has never given her a fair shake, and as Machiavelli once said, we can never forgive and be fair to those to whom we have done injury.

* Barack Obama is a charismatic, historic figure.

I find this argument specious, almost silly:

* The positions that Clinton has been taking vis-à-vis Obama in the past month appear to open up major vulnerabilities in the fall. McCain's national security experience in Vietnam trumps Clinton's national security experience in Tuzla, Bosnia.

I s Delong serious? As compared to Jeremiah Wright? Ridiculous.

But I love this kicker:

Now, none of these are Hillary Rodham Clinton's fault . . . None of these are fair. But they do make me believe that flinty-eyed Democratic superdelegates making coldblooded calculations about the national interest are making a better bet on the future if they decide to support Barack Obama.

I see. Beside rewarding all of the things DeLong describes, he advocate rewarding the sexism and misogyny of the Media and the electorate as well. It's ok if it is for Obama apparently.

At the end of the day, sadly and perhaps shamefully for me, I actually agree that Obama should be supported on elctability grounds. But I sooo detest the nasty Hillary Hate that sanctimonious Obama supporters like DeLong will display while feeding the most vile behavior. If they dropped the act, it would be much easier to swallow.

< Brock and Dems Form Group to Critique McCain | How To Look At Polls - Part II >
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  • Display: Sort:
    It's not just Clinton hate, though (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:26:50 PM EST
    It's elite hate of the vast unwashed masses, the assumption that the only reason not to vote for Obama is racism.

    Whatever happened to the Democratic Party as the party of working stiffs?  The Republicans are right, the "liberal" elites despise the hoi-polloi.


    I was discussing that (none / 0) (#3)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:32:31 PM EST
    with my hubby recently. The reason the rightwing frames like "liberal elite" take hold, is because there's always a grain of truth to them. A SMALL grain, but a grain nonetheless.

    Many white men will vote for Hillary over McCain because of the economy (the Clinton brand is good for that). Many white men will not vote for Obama because the RW narrative is that he hates America. Obviously untrue, but it's very powerful, especially combined with Wright.

    Neither of these are racial reasons, but they are strong reasons nonetheless.

    [ Parent ]

    It could not be (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:28:47 PM EST
    that these voters prefer Hillary for non-evil reasons.

    Unpossible.

    One of the marks of CDS (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by myiq2xu on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:53:54 PM EST
    is the inability to see any redeeming qualities in Hillary or Bill.

    A CDS victim thinks that no one could possibly like or prefer Hillary as a candidate, therefore any vote for her must be the result of ignorance, stupidity, or because of some wrongful belief or motive.

    [ Parent ]

    I heard a longtime Democratic operative I know (none / 0) (#20)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:56:56 PM EST
    saying at a bloggy gathering, "Who is VOTING for this woman?"

    He was incredulous that anyone could actually want her to be president.

    [ Parent ]

    ME (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:12:57 PM EST
    I am voting for her April 22nd.

    [ Parent ]
    Good for you! :-) (none / 0) (#59)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:34:45 PM EST
    You racist pig! /snark

    [ Parent ]
    Ditto. (none / 0) (#118)
    by oldpro on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:52:17 PM EST
    At my upcoming county AND congressional district conventions.

    [ Parent ]
    And me (none / 0) (#135)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EST
    in the Oregon primary. People keep giving my state to Obama. We'll see.


    [ Parent ]
    You think Oregon might not swing for the O? (none / 0) (#140)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:39:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    In another planet (none / 0) (#168)
    by Gio on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:10:39 PM EST
    Where has your friend been hiding? Is not like Senator Obama has big lead...1% of the popular vote and 130 or so delegates more.

    I will also vote for her. Are you a racist or is it reverse racism?

    [ Parent ]

    Redeeming qualities? (none / 0) (#146)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:57:05 PM EST
    They have none. You can't really fault people for speaking the truth.

    /snark

    [ Parent ]

    BTW (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:32:35 PM EST
    DeLong's substance is incredibly absurd. He chooses to ignore the data by saying:

    "First of all, there is no sign that states with demographic compositions like the key five -- Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, Michigan and Missouri -- are necessarily hard terrain for Democratic politicians."

    The issue is OBAMA against McCain, not "Democratic politicians" in general.

    DeLong's piece is a ridiculous red herring.

    I like the (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:10:27 PM EST
    not necessarily hard terrain.  

    Right Brad, those states don't have to be hard.  They just are.

    [ Parent ]

    In general, DeLong's argument (5.00 / 4) (#60)
    by frankly0 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:35:17 PM EST
    is infected with terribly bad faith.

    Look, the argument for Hillary's better electability compared to Obama has always been breathtakingly simple: she appears to fare better by a good distance in the major four swing states: OH, MI, FL, and PA. She does so because of the Reagan Democrats (whom DeLong doesn't even mention, despite their widely known and acknowledged importance), who populate those states in large numbers, and have always been the swing votes in those swing states. If a candidate can't win at least one of those major swing states, and probably two, they have little or no chance to win the general election. Obama looks to have a very real problem there.

    Now you can agree with that argument or not, but if you don't engage it, you are just being intellectually dishonest.

    Fundamentally, this argument turns on the appeal to Reagan Democrats. Reducing that appeal to racialized politics is the product of a hack, not a "scientist".

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly (none / 0) (#27)
    by Prabhata on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:08:14 PM EST
    If the two candidates left for nomination were HRC and Edwards, he would defeat HRC in OH and PA.  Does that mean that all those whites who now vote for HRC are sexists?

    [ Parent ]
    The Democrats lose (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by LadyDiofCT on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:35:42 PM EST
    The party has turned on its own.  Republicans win because they stick together, for better or worse.  We have become our own worst enemy.

    Actually I believe only Hillary can save (5.00 / 8) (#13)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:51:00 PM EST
    the Democrats, now. I thought before that Obama would be ok in the GE, but now I think he is the weakest candidate I have seen in my lifetime----with the possible exception of Mondale. He is
    laughably unprepared for office, to a degree I definitely have not seen in any previous Democratic nominee.
    On top of that, he and his campaign have antagonized and insulted the Hillary supporters to such an extent that rapprochement will take a lot of work---work he seems to have no interest starting on.


    [ Parent ]
    no interest (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Gio on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:55:42 PM EST
    You have no idea how disgusted and furious many of Clinton's supporters are at the party "leaders" for their interference with the process. We would have voted for him in a heart beat,but there's now way he will get my vote now. The republicans had the decency to let the process take its course even though there was no hope for Huckabee. They will have no one else to blame,but themselves and the media for their vicious and bias reporting.  

    I will vote for McCain, at least he earned the right to the precidency;it wasn't handed to him. In addition, while I do not agree with him on every issue I admire him and trust him.        

    [ Parent ]

    Kerry hands down has him beat (none / 0) (#15)
    by Virginian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:51:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    They've even started insulting each other (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:12:39 PM EST
    By that I mean I just read what Spike Lee has to say about black people who still support Clinton.

    It's not pretty.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe I'd better revisit (none / 0) (#111)
    by oldpro on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:27:02 PM EST
    and review "Do The Right Thing."

    Perhaps I missed the message...or has Obama brought change to Spike Lee?

    [ Parent ]

    Spike Lee (none / 0) (#169)
    by Gio on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:29:22 PM EST
    It is no secret that most African-Americans are voting based on race and the ones that feel different about Senator Obama are been attacked.

    Hope,change...with all that hate it is laughable.    

    [ Parent ]

    Yup. (none / 0) (#8)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:42:57 PM EST
    Unfortunately we are a lot less authoritarian than Republicans in general. Getting us all to agree on a candidate is not easy.

    But, we should not have given in to hate.

    [ Parent ]

    Point of Order (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:41:51 PM EST
    Is Sirota a friend too?

    Not being snide.

    I have some choice words.  Eh.  They've all already been said anyway.

    I'll keep them to myself.

    Back to the topic at hand.

    Did it occur to anyone that the argument that some are voting against Obama because he's black is just as offensive as the suggestion that some are voting for him just cause he's black.

    I mean if one argument is valid -- and we can talk about it -- then so is the other.  And we can talk about the other one too!

    That is unless you're a typical white woman.  They have to keep their mouths shut.

    Hillary is not weak in the West (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:43:03 PM EST
    because of sexism or misogyny.  

    For example, the State of Washington has two women Senators and a woman Governor....

    According to the SurveyUSA's April 8, 2008 poll, McCain beats Hillary 46-45 in the state of Washington, while Obama beats McCain 51-44.

    A February 2008 poll showed Obama beating McCain 54.9-40.1, while McCain was ahead of Hillary 48.6-45.1.

    Hillary's weakness in the West is based on a different phenomenon.    

    So what? (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:46:58 PM EST
    That is NOT my point. do you think Obama is weak in Ohio, PA and Florida because of racism?

    Did you completely miss my effing point here?

    Or did you deliberately ignore it?

    I detest this type of comment sometimes. You MUST know the point I am making and you choose to deliberately attempt to distort it? Are you truly incapable of honest dialogue?

    [ Parent ]

    It was this point (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:10:36 PM EST
    that I was referring to:

     

    Let me give you an example of how I can turn Obama's electability argument into a perjorative:

    Superdelgates should vote for Obama because the Media and part of the electorate still accept sexism and miosogyny as legitimate. Particularly in states like [take your pick - Western states, Virginia, etc.] Superdelegates should therefore make a coldblooded calculation to cater to the prejudices of the American electorate by choosing Obama over Clinton.

    I disagree with you and do not think that you can turn Obama's electability argument into a "sexist pejorative" with respect to the Western states.  I was making an honest and valid point--backed up by data.  You were the one who was commenting on sexism and misogyny.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Really? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:25:46 PM EST
    You do not think I can but you think DeLong is right to turn Obama's weakness into a racism pejorative?

    What a clownish comment.

    [ Parent ]

    Please, sir (5.00 / 6) (#52)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:29:45 PM EST
    leave the clowns out of it.  If you cut them, do they not cry and make a balloon animal?

    [ Parent ]
    I do not know you (none / 0) (#61)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:36:45 PM EST
    but I love your snarky comments.

    You really make me laugh. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Yep, when this election is over (none / 0) (#190)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:24:59 PM EST
    I hope Kathy still is here or tells me where to find her on the web, because there are days when I just say, "I gotta get me some Kathy snark before I head back into ____" (fill in blank with committee meeting of choice, not that I would choose to inflict any of them on any of you).  I take a break to bring up TL to get reminded by Jeralyn or BTD, too, that there are very real reasons for outrage vs. whatever amendment to whatever motion is being debated in ______ meeting.

    I'm getting quite a list of other regulars to go to here, too.  But the snarky list leads with Kathy.:-)

    [ Parent ]

    My original point (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:47:54 PM EST
    was about your hypothetical sexism argument (which I find to be invalid--at least as to the Western states), not DeLong's racism argument.

    But let us agree that Obama does not poll well in Appalachia.  Let's now take a look at this exit poll from the Ohio Democratic Primary.  The question on page 4 of that exit poll shows that the race of the candidate was important to 20% of the voters.  For that subgroup, they favored Hillary over Obama by 59-39.  For the 79% for whom the race of the candidate was not important, Hillary leads by a narrower margin, 53-45.  

    Race appears to have been a factor that some of the voters were willing to admit to in Ohio.  That is of concern.  How little or how much remains to be seen.

    [ Parent ]

    Stop right there (none / 0) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:00:41 PM EST
    You write:

    My original point was about your hypothetical sexism argument (which I find to be invalid--at least as to the Western states), not DeLong's racism argument.

    My hypothetical sexism argument was to illustrate how one can turn an elctoral advantage into a pejorative. It had EVERYTHING to do with DeLong's comment. You can NOPT separate it from DeLong's comment.

    It is dishonest to try and do that. Either that or you entirely missed my point.

    [ Parent ]

    And I am trying to de-personalize (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:56:23 PM EST
    this discussion.....

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (none / 0) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:58:45 PM EST
    Then try a little honest engagement. If you are not going to honestly discuss my arguments, then what is the point? I am not interested in attempted point scoring.

    Read what you wrote in your first comment and tell me how it addresses my post.

    [ Parent ]

    You veered off (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:19:22 PM EST
    into a hypothetical argument about sexism and misogyny that was invalid.....

    You say I cannot decouple your sexism argument from your view of DeLong's racism argument....An invalid sexism argument is not a good thing to leave laying around...especially on this blog where many are convinced that sexism is the reason why Hillary is not winning.  There may be valid sexism arguments but electoral weakness in the West is not one of them....

    You have responded with ad hominem....

    And, in order to comply with your request that I discuss the race issue, I have commented on it by quoting the Ohio exit poll.

    My comments on this thread have been in good faith even if they do not support your overall position....If you do not perceive them that way, there is nothing more I believe I can do to convince you otherwise.


    [ Parent ]

    They're both strawman arguments (5.00 / 3) (#129)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:11:51 PM EST
    That's the point!  DeLong built up a strawman and to show what a strawman that was, BTD built up an equally repugnant strawman!  He's not saying it's valid - he's saying the opposite.  But rather than engage the debate (why did DeLong build up a "racist" strawman?), you are swerving into battle with the "sexist" strawman that NO ONE HERE was defending anyway.

    This is just weird.

    [ Parent ]

    I wouldn't be so sure (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:34:16 PM EST
    that no one here agrees with the sexist strawman argument....

    I think a lot of people here believe it.  Best to knock that "strawman" down before it gets too far down the road.

    [ Parent ]

    really? (none / 0) (#170)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:33:23 PM EST
    Someone was specifically saying that clinton might have problems specifically in western states because westeners are more sexist?   Really?  Than have at it. Take that strawman down!

    [ Parent ]
    "Hillary's weakness in the West"? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:07:04 PM EST
    Surely, you jest.

    First of all, it's only April. Further, the woman won the Democratic primary in California -- some five times the size of Washington, I might add -- decisively, and also won in Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas.

    And finally, even the polling statistics that you yourself provided show that Mrs. Clinton gained ground in Washington state over the past eight weeks, while Mr. Obama's lead has proportionally and simultaneously eroded. This tells me that Clinton's potentially more competitive in that state next November than she is today, while Obama's appeal has perhaps already peaked, and might well be waning.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe that was another plan (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:20:32 PM EST
    For the Obama Camp, they have played this quite well and I can now see their methods quite clearly. But, I suspect that they expected to have already nailed the nomination and wanted to as quickly as possible before some people wearing rose colored glasses actually took a look at the person they were ga ga about. And then they saw the flaws. One big mistake they did make was trying to destroy the Hillary supporters. If BHO is the nominee, I believe he will not be able to count on those he pushed too far.

    [ Parent ]
    Not at all (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:32:05 PM EST
    There are many, many polls in the West showing Hillary in trouble....Obama consistently polls ahead of her....as does McCain.

    Hillary is only ahead of McCain by 3 in California according to the lastest PPI poll.  I agree that she would win California but not as easily as Obama and apparently not without campaigning here (Neither Gore nor Kerry campaigned here at all.)

    Setting aside California, I do not recall seeing a recent poll showing her ahead of McCain in any state West of the Mississippi, or performing better against McCain than Obama in any Western state.  If you know of such a poll, it would be interesting to see.  Today's Rasmussen poll shows Obama beating McCain in New Mexico, but Hillary losing to him there.  And Hillary won the New Mexico Primary.  And so it goes across the
    West.

    Sure, it is only April but if one is to go by data rather than argument, the polls are about all we have....

    [ Parent ]

    There are many many polls (none / 0) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:57:01 PM EST
    showing Obama in deep trouble in Florida, Ohio, PA and Michigan.

    Do you want to let Brad DeLong in on that little secret?

    [ Parent ]

    The reality (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:46:26 PM EST
    is that both have weaknesses....and it is unclear how much of that would be cured via a bump in the polls once the nominee is selected.

    Going by Rasmussen, who was very good in the GE in 2004, Obama is currently stronger (but still losing by one point today) than Hillary against McCain....

    I think McCain is going to be very hard to beat.  Period.

    [ Parent ]

    I think we can also say (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:56:39 PM EST
    that her negatives are not going to get any higher.  His, on the other hand, have nowhere else to go but up.

    [ Parent ]
    That is true (none / 0) (#106)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:22:29 PM EST
    too....Obama cannot win without Pa and Michigan....

    [ Parent ]
    Inside Blogball (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by lyzurgyk on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:45:07 PM EST
    Although I agree that the Hillary Hate has been an embarrassment to the left and will be a lingering stain on Josh Marshall's reputation.

    As far as the race thing goes, when I hinted at a racial bias to my Hillary-fanatic mom in South Carolina, she pointed out that she would have no qualms about voting for Colin Powell.   And I know she wouldn't.   But she doesn't trust Obama.

    Obama's real electability problem is that for a Presidential candidate, he has very little track record to back up his claims.   That makes him susceptible to attacks that would be shrugged off by others.  


    Agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:47:51 PM EST
    Obama's real electability problem is that for a Presidential candidate, he has very little track record to back up his claims.   That makes him susceptible to attacks that would be shrugged off by others.  

    Experience really does matter. Yet another non-evil reason that many people prefer Hillary or McCain to Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    which experience? (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by diogenes on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:10:42 PM EST
    Saying "experience" an infinite number of times doesn't convert a 1994 Health Care failure, ill-defined actual first lady experience, and seven senate years spent doing as little as possible to upset the 2008 applecart into proof of executive ability.
    As far as executive ability goes, 1994 Health care reform was a fiasco, and Obama runs an INFINITELY better campaign.  Can you imagine the Hillary campaign crew as White House chief of staff?

    [ Parent ]
    experience (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:37:36 PM EST
    Failure at attempts to do something is actually not a bad thing. It certainly teaches lessons for the next time.

    [ Parent ]
    Also, her constituents in NY apparently (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by allimom99 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:50:02 PM EST
    didn't think she was doing nothing, as they reelected her. Hmmm. She's been very active in the Senate = are you really going to hold it against her that there was a Republican majority until last Jan? Get real. what was O doing? Certainly not the committee job they gave him, because HE WAS TOO BUSY RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

    [ Parent ]
    I've been collecting links (none / 0) (#97)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:08:44 PM EST
    on some of the work she's done for NYS, but I haven't got them in any sort of order yet. She has done work for our smaller farms etc  this is a link to her senate page, but I also have many articles about this and her other work regarding agriculture. She's signed on to similar projects in the senate:

    http://tinyurl.com/4yl73s

    and then there's her 9/11 responders work . . .

    [ Parent ]

    Boy, that experience argument (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:38:50 PM EST
    really seems to bug some Obama supporters.

    The truth hurts.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, what have they got? (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by myiq2xu on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:44:36 PM EST
    Judgment?

    Why kind of judgment does it show to start running for President when you're not even halfway through your first term in Washington?

    No executive experience at all, just some time in a state legislature.

    [ Parent ]

    Health care (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by abfabdem on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:46:58 PM EST
    This is actually one reason I support her.  She has more to prove to actually get health care passed this time since it didn't in 1994.  

    [ Parent ]
    campaign management? (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:15:42 PM EST
    Yes, that is exactly the same as governing.  That is what I learned from eight years watching the most disciplined effective campaign in memory run the country.  Because, lord knows, history is going to remember George W. Bush as one of our greatest presidents.

    Wait.  I'm sorry, I meant worst presidents.  Huh?  Maybe campaign management doesn't matter that much after all.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:03:18 PM EST
    I crack up at that 'Obama is running a great campaign - that means he would be a good president' argument.  Hard to make that stick with Exhibit A to the contrary in the White House.

    If only it were true.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, in a 60 minutes interview (none / 0) (#137)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:34:55 PM EST
    when asked what he had actually run as far as experience, his answer:

    Harvard Law Review
    Senate Office
    Camapign

    Don't ya feel better now?!

    [ Parent ]

    diogenes, factcheck.org/Newsweek (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by lookoverthere on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:59:16 PM EST
    did a great debunking of an email going around that compared the legislative records of Sen. Obama and Sen. Clinton.

    A misleading e-mail has been making the rounds, alleging that Clinton has fewer legislative accomplishments than Obama, and that they are less substantive...

    We find that the e-mail is false in almost every particular:

    It sets up a face-off between apples and, well, broccoli, comparing only the Clinton-sponsored bills that became law with all bills sponsored or cosponsored by Obama, whether they were signed into law or not.

    It goes from there, but the apples v. broccoli thing is pretty funny, IMO. The article compares the legislative records of both.

    We haven't even gone into all the other stuff she's done.

    [ Parent ]

    This is incredibly shoddy for a prof... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Virginian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:51:24 PM EST
    The argument that Wilentz should have made is that this spring's primary results show that white reluctance to vote for an African-American candidate could be a real and important factor this November

    What hackery...so if you happen to be white, and happen to favor a candidate OTHER than Obama in the primary (or general election for that matter) it this wisecracker is suggesting that the logical assumption is a reluctance to vote for an African-American...

    Do we really need to give these folks more bandwidth?

    Yes (3.50 / 2) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:53:35 PM EST
    To expose them.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't see Willentz say that (none / 0) (#23)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:04:38 PM EST
    in his piece, read a few days ago.  Pointer to where this argument is made in his essay?  I saw only the  argument about procedural differences between the parties in determining delegate counts.

    [ Parent ]
    She is quoting DeLong. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:24:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    She is a he (none / 0) (#100)
    by Virginian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:15:16 PM EST
    Virginian like the western, not the queen :)

    [ Parent ]
    Trampas (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:39:10 PM EST
    was my favorite....

    [ Parent ]
    De Long is not a prof (none / 0) (#166)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:01:30 PM EST
    as far as I know or can find, and this says it's the prof whose thinking is shoddy.  So I want to know where Willentz, the Princeton prof, said any such thing as this says De Long said he said.  (Whew.)

    [ Parent ]
    Scratch that, now I found Prof. De Long (none / 0) (#167)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:04:30 PM EST
    is an economist.  No wonder he can't get what a historian says.  We see that split all the time on my campus.  

    Thanks.

    [ Parent ]

    Obamacans are already (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by jen on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:52:52 PM EST
    convinced that IF O wins the nomination, when he loses the GE, it will be all Clinton's fault. Their thinking will be something along the lines of because she played the race card, she reawakened a sleeping racism giant across the country, that otherwise would have voted for O. If she had only dropped out before TX and OH, the party would have united behind O.

    And it may be PI to mention this, and many will deny it, but there are more than enough people in this country who would never vote for a black man for president. Especially a man with the lack of any experience that qualifies him to be president.

    Obama will either lose the nomination, or he will lose the GE. I'd rather see him lose now.

    Obama should concede the race (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by RogerVeritas on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:08:39 PM EST
    Obama is alienating the broadest segment of democratic voters -women. The why is in the fact of the party operatives for several decades have been women. They supported, they volunteered, they organized the democratic party for years. Now he is slamming the door in their collective face.

    The facts are out there.
    [HREF] http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/48373

    [ Parent ]

    Of course (none / 0) (#28)
    by Just another person on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:09:55 PM EST
    these people will fail to see that the race thing raised its ugly head because of Jeremiah Wright, that had nothing to do with Clinton (though some would love to believe otherwise).

    And I'm also afraid that there are more than enough people who would never vote for a woman as president either. And somehow, they feel they can justify this  stance better than the black man stance.

    This election makes me believe that it was too early to pitch a woman and a black man at the same time. Identity politics hasn't advanced far enough where each side doesn't feel the need to have one of their own in the highest office in the land.

    [ Parent ]

    I have a couple of friends who are in (none / 0) (#65)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:39:14 PM EST
    the "won't vote for a woman" category. Their wives have pointed out to them that they would "really" be voting for Bill, since every "good wife" does as her husband tells her. And she proved she was a "good wife" when she stood by him during Monicagate. I was appalled when I heard that, the ladies told me about it with great glee. But when I heard that the husbands were going to vote for Hillary, in spite of her being a woman, I shut the hell up. Why ruin a good thing even if it's for the wrong reasons?

    [ Parent ]
    Sounds liake they have learned (none / 0) (#183)
    by splashy on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:10:21 AM EST
    How to manipulate men that think like that. If you end up living with men that are like that, you HAVE to figure out a way to make them think it's their idea, or that it's all for the men.

    In fact, I have seen men that actually LIKE that form of manipulation. They have respect for the women that are able to get them to do things without them knowing it. They think the women are being clever.

    Go figure...

    [ Parent ]

    Obama should concede the race (none / 0) (#189)
    by RogerVeritas on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:13:28 PM EST
    Obama is alienating the broadest segment of democratic voters -women. The why is in the fact of the party operatives for several decades have been women. They supported, they volunteered, they organized the democratic party for years. Now he is slamming the door in their collective face.

    The facts are out there.
    [HREF] http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/48373

    [ Parent ]

    One more thing (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:54:35 PM EST
    I think the fact that Obama might lose blue states like NY, MA and possibly CA to McCain, has to be taken into account when advocating for Obama's electability. Hillary will take all the blue states easily, whereas Obama will have to spend precious resources in them and still might not defeat McCain.


    As a NYC'er who remembers the David Dinkins (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by vicndabx on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:14:40 PM EST
    era, I too worry when we have a black liberal candidate vs. a white moderate candidate (cuz IMO that's what John McCain really is despite claims that he's something else).  Rudy Guiliani came in behind Dinkins' supposed failure to effectively deal w/racial tensions after Crown Heights.  Now, I'm not saying a similar situation will exist come GE time, nor am I saying O will been seen as handling it poorly if it does, BUT, as noone has the crystal ball working properly, demographics come back into to the picture here in NY (and probably NJ as well.)  I've seen other posts where it was stated we elect a lot of republicans here, and it's true.  Upstate NY'ers are a totally different breed of democrat.....and there are a lot of them here in the city as well.

    [ Parent ]
    I have to admit (none / 0) (#73)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:44:42 PM EST
    that I voted for Giuliani the first time.

    The only, and last Republican I've ever voted for. But there ya go, you are 100% correct.

    However, thinking that Rice adds anything to McCain's ticket in NYC is delusional IMHO. She is the one who was NSA on 9/11. We hatessssss her, precious!

    As long as Clinton is on the ticket, NY goes blue.

    [ Parent ]

    yepper as they "sometimes" say in (none / 0) (#94)
    by vicndabx on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:04:37 PM EST
    Syracuse.  No doubt as we say in the Bronx.

    [ Parent ]
    I thought the Rice thing was odd (none / 0) (#103)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:17:33 PM EST
    But I was watching the McCain interview on the View and they mentioned it. I do think the right VP choice by McCain could pose a problem in NY. Especially since Obama seems to believe he's got more experience than he does. Lord only knows who he'll pick . . .

    I don't know who they polled, but it sure wasn't anyone I know!, lol!~ Rice is in the gutter.

    [ Parent ]

    He won't (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:58:43 PM EST
    imo. No bearing in my discussion at all.

    [ Parent ]
    a Fox poll today says maybe (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:24:29 PM EST
    McCain/Rice beats Obama/Clinton and Clinton/Obama

    (yes, I know it's a Fox poll!!)

    NYS has a tad bit of red running through it. Clinton made great inroads up there and worked hard for their vote and just worked hard in general. Will those voters just hand their vote to Obama?? I'm not so sure. After dealing with Clinton and her style for 6 yrs along with her work ethic, what can Obama say to get their vote?

    [ Parent ]

    Only here, so far as I know, (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:07:47 PM EST
    has there been an honest and comprehensive discussion of these issues.

    Thanks BTD.

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by bjorn on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:44:14 PM EST
    This post is very well reasoned and it is what I expected more from other blogs.  BTDs voice seems to be one of the very few who has been able to keep emotion out of the argument and see things from all sides, and base arguments soley on facts.

    [ Parent ]
    I think that all this shows (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:12:54 PM EST
    is they (Obama purists) are starting to sweat about losing, so they are presenting the case for why this might happen, and of course it's not the fault of the liberal elite, it's the great unwashed racists of this country who don't know any better.  You know--low information, uneducated, blue collar, elderly women, etc.

    I predict that as time wears on, we'll see more of this flop sweat coming out in big, dewy globs as they mount their high horses and race away from righteous defeat.  I saw it with Kerry, where they so framed him as so intellectually superior to Bush that no one could identify with him.  In the end, the base stayed home and Kerry lost.

    Now, we have Clinton, who actually energizes the base, and they are the ones who will see an Obama nomination as the most illegitimate, especially if FL and MI are not dealt with in what is perceived as a fair way.  I have said from the beginning that the problem won't be dems voting for McCain--it'll be dems staying home.

    The funny thing is that--as with everything in America--it won't be about race, it'll be about class.  Race will be the convenient scape goat.

    I, Too, Am Not Up to Being Lectured (5.00 / 10) (#35)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:14:31 PM EST
    about prejudices by a group of Blogger Boys who have defended, if not embraced, sexism and misogyny. So I'm right there with you, BTD.

    I also like how even though their racism theory essentially condemns Obama to losing in November, the Democratic party is still supposed to nominate him so that we feel better about ourselves.  Because that's what's important.  

    If that doesn't say a whole lot about their own views on race, and how much of this is about patting themselves on the back for their open-mindedness, I don't know what does.  And it's condescending not only to to working class and rural whites, but to Obama.

    Thanks to guys like DeLong and the MSM, Clinton has become the outsider in this race (the Clintons have always been outsiders with certain segments of the party).  There are a lot of white Americans in the Rustbelt who can identify with that.  After all, they get condescended to and mistreated by powerful, elite whites on a daily basis, too.  There is also a cultural connection between rural and working class whites, particularly in Appalachia, and the Clintons with their time in Arkansas, which is only reinforced by things like this.  

    And, of course, what's never discussed is the fact that a lot of neutral observers (Krugman, Elizabeth Edwards) have praised Clinton's economic and healthcare policies as more liberal and better than Obama's.  But, hey, why would a laid off steel working in Pennsylvania care about that?  

    As I've said before, I have no doubt race is a factor in this election (as is gender), but I have yet to see any proof that it's the deciding factor.  In fact, for all the hand-wringing about Clinton's wins in Appalachian areas and racism, Doug Wilder did better in Appalachian Virginia when he ran for Governor, than John Kerry did against George Bush.  

    Who's sexist? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:15:12 PM EST
    Not me, says The Swamp!  They printed a poll today about which candidate women prefer.  This paragraph was included:

    Meryl Streep was named actress most fit to play the role of Hillary Clinton in a Lifetime movie (17%). Actresses Glenn Close and Diane Keaton followed (both tied at 11%).

    Right!  Women are SO more interested in the movies than the election.  So who gets to play Ometoo?  Too bad Heston's not here--oh, wrong color! Well, I guess there's a superhero in Hollywood that is the correct color.

    Just shoot me now . . . (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:27:33 PM EST
    I knew we still had equality issues, as I've dealt with them often enough, but these past few months have just been one slap in the face after another.

    [ Parent ]
    to be fair (none / 0) (#172)
    by TheRefugee on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:54:19 PM EST
    I can't remember the show or anchor, but one host asked Obama who should play him in a movie...I think Obama sidestepped the question as I immediately thought he'd say Denzel but he ended up talking about something else--not sure if he ever answered the question:  my attention span when watching Obama speak has grown exceedingly short.

    [ Parent ]
    She may not provoke as much GOP hate.. (5.00 / 10) (#41)
    by goldberry on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:17:51 PM EST
    .. as you think, BTD.  My whole family in PA were diehard Bush fans.  I mean, DIE HARD.  They loved Bush with a slavishness that was both disturbing and frightening.  My brother said a couple of years ago that he would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER vote for a Democrat and that presumably meant Clinton triply so.  
    But this year, my mom, brother and sister are all voting for her in the PA primary.  And this is not just Dem for a Day stuff to screw things up for us.  They really think she is the better candidate.  They even like her, BTD.  
    It's weird and spooky and I don't know how long it will last but I think she played her cards right on national security issues with them, something Obama has failed to do.  
    To be quite honest, I think if Hillary is on the ticket this fall, the electability issues will be moot.  There will be nothing like it in our nation's history.  The models will be useless.  A new parameter will be introduced.  That is, we have never seen how a woman runs the country and our curiosity will be piqued.  She's tough, tenacious, smart and experienced.  I think a lot of Republicans are going to jump ship and vote for her.  Many, many more than would vote for Obama.  

    I have long thought (5.00 / 7) (#51)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:28:01 PM EST
    the Hillary hate was over-played by the media; the grossest projection of our times.  If she were as hated as they say, she wouldn't be getting votes.  We wouldn't be seeing these record turnouts.  She wouldn't have people sending her money or showing up at her events.  She is in a virtual tie with him at this point popular vote wise (please, let's not get into that argument and just agree she's pretty darn close).  The point is that millions of people have turned out for her, with millions more to go.

    Remember, this is the same media who helped sell us all on the war.  Are we going to let them sell us on Hillary hate, too?

    [ Parent ]

    I think so too (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:41:19 PM EST
    I think the loud-mouths talked it up beyond what it really is.  I work with several die-hard Republicans and they all laugh about hating Hillary - it is a standing joke to them - but they don't really "hate" her any more than any other Dem. She does not make them any more or less likely to get out and vote or to give money to their party.

    I have actually come to believe that it is the Hillary Haters in the Democtaric party that have really been talking this up all these years.

    [ Parent ]

    Divisiveness (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:07:32 PM EST
    That's the flip side of claiming she's "divisive" - if all people hate her, really really hate her, then she is not "divisive". In that case she would be loathed.  The fact is that many many people LOVE her - not because she's famous but because she is experienced, likeable, smart, etc etc.  And thus, even though there is undoubtable some small element that does go red, there is also an element that goes hearts and flowers.  A much larger element if her current position is any indicator.

    I think the blogger boys forgot about that and now they can't admit they were wrong.  So she's not still in this because a lot of people really like her, she's in it because she's an angry, bitter, entitled shrew who just can't admit that she should drop out.  Just like some deranged ex-girlfriend (oh - and she's racist).

    Blech to the blogger boys, I say.

    [ Parent ]

    I think the best snapshot (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:16:49 PM EST
    we got about how the Obama folk really feel about Clinton and her supporters came via Samantha Power in the now-famous monster interview.  The lines that no one seemed troubled over was the following passage:

    "You just look at her and think, 'Ergh'. But if you are poor and she is telling you some story about how Obama is going to take your job away, maybe it will be more effective. The amount of deceit she has put forward is really unattractive."

    Which I took as a backhand slap at Clinton's "deluded" voters who are obviously just scared little babies.  Why else would they vote for this "monster" unless they were stupid or scared?

    [ Parent ]

    Word. (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:17:52 PM EST
    Obama has been pushing the narrative that he is more electable and less divisive than HRC for quite some time. I think that is one reason he and his campaign have been poisoning the well with accusations of HRC's racism - to prove his argument is correct.

    Meanwhile, Obama's inability to get the Reagan Democrats' vote can't be mentioned because it's "racist" to mention it. In fact, any discussion of Obama's possible negatives in the GE is greeted with hysteria almost anywhere but here.

    Obama likely knew the "Hillary is polarizing!" argument was BS from the first, but it gave a lot of "progressives" their License to Hate. And the media, of course, didn't need a Hate License - they've had theirs for 16 years.

    [ Parent ]

    John Fout makes a good point... (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by lookoverthere on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:23:41 PM EST
    in this blog from theStreet.com. Quote (first para is a quote from Obama campaign, second is Fout's):

    Sen. Barack Obama (D., Ill.) has asked voters -- Democrats, independents and Republicans -- to see him as a unifying force, a once-in-a-lifetime politician who can overcome the partisan divide and change politics in Washington. He presents a bold vision.

    Unfortunately, Obama has failed in his first test to unify his own party. His campaign has failed to recognize the results of the Florida primary -- and Michigan -- for political gain over his opponent, a decision that could disgruntle Democratic voters in Florida in November and years beyond.



    [ Parent ]
    John McCain knows it too (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by ineedalife on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:54:46 PM EST
    He was on American Idol tonight saying there at least the voters in MI and FL count. He probably picked up a percent or two of the votes in those two states tonight alone.

    [ Parent ]
    If the Blogger Boys were in Spartacus (5.00 / 7) (#121)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:55:39 PM EST
    ... they'd be the going, "Spartacus? That's him! Over there, barrel chested guy in the big underpants!"

    Holding Sen. Clinton's passive-attribute of BEING "divisive" against her because she has been a favorite target of hard right fanatics is Repugnant in the extreme.

    Shame on Obama for using that injustice to sell himself. That's a big reason I regard him as a complete fraud on human rights and a really poor choice not just to go up against McCain but to lead in these Repulsive times.

    She's been fighting the creeps that have had cover up front or behind the scenes by spiteful media and wagon circling Repugs, and enabled by self-serving Dems.

    Obama's stated position is that he'll charm the fanatics. Yeah, that's a plan.

    Here's a good gauge: She's still standing. He has yet to take a stand.

    [ Parent ]

    He had to tear her down (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:04:24 PM EST
    otherwise, he'd just be the happy guy in the corner.  She had such strong support at the beginning that the only way to cut into that was to vilify her.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah... (5.00 / 4) (#127)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:08:33 PM EST
    Holding Sen. Clinton's passive-attribute of BEING "divisive" against her because she has been a favorite target of hard right fanatics is Repugnant in the extreme.

    I read a great analogy of this once.  Let's say you have a female employee of some company who is being bothered and harassed by a co-worker.  Finally, she says, "Enough!" and goes to a supervisor and the guy is fired.  Six months later, she has a performance evaluation.  Boss says, "Oh I'd like to promote you, but some of the other employees are still real mad you got Bob fired."

    That's what the blogger boys and Obama are blaming Clinton for when they call her "divisive".  

    (And remember - she wasn't initially divisive because of health care or whatever.  It was because she had a job outside the home (unlike Barbara) and she didn't bake cookies (unlike Barbara)).

    [ Parent ]

    That was my analogy (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:41:13 PM EST
    Although it's so obvious and fits so snugly I figure anyone else could have come up with it.

    [ Parent ]
    very nice! n/t (none / 0) (#171)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:46:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I personally don't think Barbara (none / 0) (#161)
    by Gabriele Droz on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:19:59 PM EST
    ever baked cookies.  She had some of her maids do that.  She doesn't strike me as a hands-on type, except with words - negative ones.  She excels there.

    [ Parent ]