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Should Cocaine Be Available at Your Corner Drug Store?

By Jeralyn, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:44:00 AM EST
Tags: cocaine, drug policy (all tags)
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A British writer makes the case for legalizing cocaine.

Anyone disagree? The war on drugs has been an abysmal failure.

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    Should Cocaine Be Available at Your Corner Drug Store? | 177 comments (177 topical)

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    As a native-born (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by facta non verba on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:12:22 AM EST
    Colombian, I can hope that illicit drugs be legalized and their effects treated as medical problem and not a criminal one.

    Colombia's problems are in many ways beyond our control. As long as the profits of such a large and nefarious enterprise, then we in Colombia will always be combating them. I am pleased, however, that Uribe seems on the verge of finishing off the FARC. They are down to 8,000 under arms down from 30,000 at the start of his government in 2002. As for Chavez, Correa and Ortega, they are a menace. Chavez has an 47% approval rating. Uribe, after the raid in Ecuador, hit 87% (before the raid, he was hovering in the high 60% range).

    I am a progressive. Chavez has done good things but he is not adherent of democratic principles. Why he chose Bolivar as an idol is hard to comprehend. Bolivar was a tyrant. He ruled by the sword which is why he was asked to leave Bogota in 1830 and told to head into exile. How Venezuela expects to feed itself now that they have closed the border is beyond me. That's his problem now. But Colombia, nor should the US, tolerate any one who gives refuge to the FARC. We will see how things play. But Colombia is no rush to war despite Venezuela's seeming desire for one. Who wants war? 44 million Colombians are tired of it.

    Are those my only choices? (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by BDB on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:12:38 AM EST
    Because while I do agree the War on Drugs has been a failure (it's a health problem more than an LE problem), I do not think the answer is to stock my local drugstore with cocaine.  Marijuana, maybe.

    Agree... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 07:23:55 AM EST
    ...especially because I live in Baltimore. Evil drug.

    [ Parent ]
    Drugs aren't evil....people are.... (none / 0) (#102)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:48:15 AM EST
    The indigenous tribes of South America used coca for centuries....it wasn't evil.

    [ Parent ]
    People are evil? (none / 0) (#107)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:58:26 AM EST
    Are you invoking the "guns aren't evil, people are" argument in favor of cocaine? But I agree that I shouldn't have used a morally loaded term, but I was being colloquial. Cocaine and its derivatives are highly addictive substances and drug addicts are not evil, they are addicted.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course drug addicts aren't evil..... (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:15:00 AM EST
    People can take drugs and do evil things, people can be stone-cold sober and do evil things...that's what I meant.  Cocaine is a substance, it isn't good or evil...it just is.

    Not everybody who does a line becomes hopelessly addicted, you know that right?  Just as not everyone who takes a shot of Jack becomes an alcoholic.  It has more to do with the person than the drug, some of us are more susceptible to addiction than others.

    Bottom line, just because a substance can be highly addictive is no reason to criminalize and prohibit it's use.  That is tyranny...plain and simple.

    [ Parent ]

    I just disagree.... (none / 0) (#114)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:40:11 AM EST
    ...I think it is up to society to come up with a consensus on these things and I believe we have to look at what is really happening in our streets. I can tell you that legalized coke in my city would be a total disaster....too much potential for abuse.Too many vulnerable people whose lives would be put at risk.  I do think that the criminalization of drugs has contributed to the profitability of drug trafficking, but my feeling is that we have to work more on combating addiction, and then we can consider the idea of de-criminalizing drugs in a more reasonable fashion.

    [ Parent ]
    So basically you support.... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:54:32 AM EST
    the tyranny of the majority over the liberty of the individual.  Tyranny in the name of benevolence is still tyranny.

    Thank you for advocating for my arrest...I really appreciate that.

    [ Parent ]

    I think she probably advocates for you (none / 0) (#131)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:41:48 AM EST
    to not break the law and not put yourself in the position to get arrested. At least that's what I would advocate for.

    [ Parent ]
    Can't do it brother.... (none / 0) (#141)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:09:45 PM EST
    what kind of piker would I be if I let others dictate how I live?

    Best I can do is be careful.  It's the American way...don't be honest, be sneaky.

    [ Parent ]

    Not a great comparison (none / 0) (#117)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:57:19 AM EST
    The difference between Coca and Cocaine is similar to the difference between Opium and Heroin, its pretty freaking big.

    [ Parent ]
    Having 2 milion people in prison doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by halstoon on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:00:29 AM EST
    seem to make one bit of difference in the profits of the cartels, so maybe legalization should be tried. Marijuana should absolutely be legal. Heroin I would hedge on, and hallucinogens, while I personally know their lack of harm, are too scary to the proletariat.

    Start with marijuana, stop locking up addicts, and add drugs on a set schedule to give society time to adjust.

    There's also this approach to crack neighborhoods instead of imprisoning another generation.

    1 in 9 AAs should be something that appalls people (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:11:54 AM EST
    Why doesn't the fact that 1 in 9 AA males between the ages of 20-34 resides in custody anger more people, if you look at rates of drug use there is no discernible variation by race, and yet incarceration is overwhelmingly black, and massively hispanic, (heck if you look at the search rates on New York subways that was just released, itd be a high-profit low risk job if you're a white woman or an Asian of either gender to traffic drugs).

    [ Parent ]
    It is appalling, and the next president should (none / 0) (#147)
    by halstoon on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:40:10 PM EST
    throw their full influence behind changing that fact.

    At least both Democrats have said they will address the disparities between crack and cocaine sentences.

    That story from the WSJ was encouraging in the fact that in that approach the community is called on to participate in the rehabilitation of those given a chance to avoid prison.

    It is also sad that people like Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity don't understand how churches like Obama's Trinity UCC actually are beneficial in their focus on the "black experience and value system."

    Just more evidence of the wide racial divide that still exists in this country, no matter how close Sen. Obama comes to being president.

    [ Parent ]

    Let's try Marijuana first.... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by jerry on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:08:46 AM EST
    When the speed limit was 55, most people drove 75.  Then the speed limit was raised back up to 65 against fears that people would now drive 85.  What happened?  Most people still drive 75.

    I agree the war on drugs is a failure, and I agree that society is better off with certain drugs legalized, taxed, and regulated and other drugs kept illegal.

    I have the sense that once people have broken the law by smoking pot, it makes it that much easier for people to break the law by using other illegal drugs.  Make pot legal, and use of illegal drugs may actual decrease.

    I think we should legalize pot and see what happens in five years.

    great program, HClinton says it takes a village. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by thereyougo on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:53:54 AM EST
    I'm sick that prisons and schools are draining the taxpayer coffers that could go to those without health insurance.

    Money diverted to deal with a problem that has to be dealt with in a different way that appears to have little success, judging from the penal population.

    I always wondered why the countries who grow this stuff don't have the same problems we do. I mean they're poor nations, yet, they can't sell the stuff in their own country? Or am I wrong about this.

    [ Parent ]

    it should also be mentioned (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:26:07 AM EST
    that the US now has the largest prison population on the planet.  NOT the largest based on a percentage of population. BUT THE LARGEST.  EVEN LARGER THAN CHINA.
    many of those people are non violent drug offenders.
    that should scare the crap out of any freedom loving person.


    [ Parent ]
    They sell it in their countries as well... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:22:28 AM EST
    it just sells for a lot more here.  Like any other commodity, it finds its way to the market where the demand and price are the highest.

    [ Parent ]
    great program, HClinton says it takes a village. (none / 0) (#12)
    by thereyougo on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:55:21 AM EST
    I'm sick that prisons and schools are draining the taxpayer coffers that could go to those without health insurance.

    Money diverted to deal with a problem that has to be dealt with in a different way that appears to have little success, judging from the penal population.

    I always wondered why the countries who grow this stuff don't have the same problems we do. I mean they're poor nations, yet, they can't sell the stuff in their own country? Or am I wrong about this.

    [ Parent ]

    apologies....... (none / 0) (#14)
    by thereyougo on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 02:47:44 AM EST
    double posts and words missing, please Jeaalyn  delete these 2 impostors!

    Imust be tired.

    [ Parent ]

    that's a rather simplistic (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by cpinva on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:22:08 AM EST
    question. define your terms first. if, by cocaine, you mean what passes on the street, then i'd have to say no. if you're referring to pharmeceutical quality cocaine, that's another issue entirely.

    what most people (including politicians and police) fail to recognize is that most of the physical harm associated with cocaine isn't from the cocaine, it's from the various and sundry items used to cut it. try sniffing talcum powder and see how it feels.

    assume that the average street cocaine is only running 20% pure. what is that other 80% making up the weight? you probably don't want to know. think: the jungle, upton sinclair's expose' of the meat packing industry. hotdogs anyone?

    the same is true for heroin, or pretty much any other alkaloid sold loose; 80% of what your sniffing/injecting isn't the drug, it's filler. don't take my word for it, do your own research.

    practically anything, if abused, will cause harm. however, there is scant medical evidence to suggest that the use of pure drugs, even long-term, is as harmful to the individual and society as the war on drugs has been.

    make it legal, clean it up, take the money saved on police and jails and divert it to rehab programs.

    Excellent point (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by miked on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:20:00 AM EST
    That I don't see being brought up very often - as an R&D engineer in the pharmaceutical industry, I must spend about 80% of my day ensuring the purity and quality of the stuff we produce. Most people would probably be surprised by the fanatical degree of caution we have when producing prescription drugs. I have personally discarded hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of product on even the slightest suspicion that it was accidentally adulterated.

    One of the most heinous side effects of the drug war is the fact that millions of people are putting deadly poisons and impurities into their bodies without the slightest idea of how dangerous they are. Sometimes its alot worse than talcum powder.

    Legalization would take all the money out of it and practically snuff out illicit production immediately. Even with high taxes, no basement lab is going to compete effectively with Pfizer or Novartis.

    No way that snorting cocaine is good for you but you would definitely be alot better off with stuff manufactured by Big Pharma! Everyone likes to demonize us but we sure know how to manufacture drugs.

    [ Parent ]

    That you do sir..... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:24:48 AM EST
    I've enjoyed your Adderal and Provigil as concentration aides, and your painkillers kick ass when the teeth act up.

    I like to beat up on big pharma...but you guys do make some good stuff:)

    [ Parent ]

    Well thanks! (none / 0) (#98)
    by miked on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:35:58 AM EST
    It's always nice to have some appreciation!

    And regarding painkillers - another good example of a legalization benefit. We are able to formulate painkillers to be a bit less addictive than natural opium but still provide the desired effects. Also, the natural opium substances are often replaced with similar synthetics so that we can guarantee better consistency and dosing control.

    Most likely the formulations guys could achieve similar safety improvements with other drugs. Because of the pre-existing mentality prevalent in our industry, I think we'd be alot better on that account than tobacco companies.

    [ Parent ]

    Do your thing....... (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:50:44 AM EST
    but I would say I would like to have the option to buy the real thing too, as manufactured by mother nature:)

    I didn't like cocaine, but I am curious to try chewing on some coca leaves.  I wish I could go to an herbalist and buy some:)

    [ Parent ]

    But Mother Nature.... (none / 0) (#119)
    by miked on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:57:49 AM EST
    ...would never get all the paperwork right! She'd get creamed in an FDA audit! <G>

    [ Parent ]
    That's the great thing about mother nature.... (none / 0) (#163)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 02:06:29 PM EST
    she don't need no stinkin' paperwork:)

    [ Parent ]
    Why are drugs illegal in the first place? (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by bernarda on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 06:21:42 AM EST
    Before WWI, all drugs were legal. Alcohol was the big supposed public health problem though. For a short history.

    http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrd5xtyfjFw

    Virginia farmers can grow the poison tobacco, but Columbian or Afghan farmers can't grow cocaine and opium, at least in theory.

    Whenever I hear a politician or a law enforcement person talk about enforcing the war on drugs, I assume that they are making money from the traffic. They want drugs to be illegal because they are making too much money off of them.

    every time a drug has been made illegal (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 07:34:18 AM EST
    it's because a certain "unsavory" element of society has become associated with it.  

    That being said, the UK's heroin addict registration system works because they have the dole.  Without this important safety net, their addicts would be on the street.

    People use Holland as an example for decriminalizing some drugs, but if you have ever taken an overnight flight to Amsterdam and walked around the city during the early hours of the morning, you'll see people laid out in the street.  Making drugs legal does not make them free.  The ensuing crime comes along with it.  Theft is a huge problem.

    What people also fail to discuss when they talk about legalization is how many women and children are preyed upon by pimps and other predators who use drugs to control them.  I worked with sex workers many years back, and every single one of them had a drug problem controlled by their pimp and every single one of them had absolutely no free will because of it.

    [ Parent ]

    But, that wasn't the drugs (none / 0) (#178)
    by splashy on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 01:45:32 AM EST
    It was the tendency to be addicted that led to that. If the drugs were legal, they could get help without fear of prison.

    I come from a family of alcoholics, but aren't one myself. It's a chemistry problem for people, not a moral or criminal problem. It has to be treated, not punished.

    [ Parent ]

    Back in the 70's a professor I had (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 06:27:52 AM EST
    told us that there are two Businesses in the Illegal Drug Market, the Business of Selling them and the Business of Combating them.  Both businesses make $$ Billions $$

    Precisely which drugs (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by tomangell on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 06:44:54 AM EST
    do folks think become safer when their production and distribution are turned over to violent criminal cartels and gangs?  Precisely which drugs do you think people should be sent to jail for putting into their own bodies?

    The War on Drugs needs to be ended altogether.  We will only be able to begin solving drug abuse and addiction problems once we get rid of the black market and are able to bring things to the surface level so we can survey the situation and respond accordingly with appropriate resources.

    Legalize them all (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by libertarian soldier on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 07:09:40 AM EST
    And control them as alcohol or nicotine are regulated.  The War on Drugs has been such an abysmal failure for so long and at such cost that I am convinced legalization would be better because I don't see how it could be worse.

    No. (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 07:51:18 AM EST
    Speaking in general here.
    The problem with legalizing drugs is that some of them are so addictive and so damaging, society has a vested interest in keeping people from using them.
    Meth is one example.
    What's the answer? I don't know.

    Can't you see... (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:09:27 AM EST
    that prohibition does not, and can not, stop anybody from using drugs.

    Gimme an hour I'll get you any drug you want.

    Believe it or not I know people who are able to use cocaine responsibly.  And I know people who became addicted and made a mess of their lives.  That's freedom baby....messy but glorious.  

    [ Parent ]

    Are you sure prohibition doesn't (none / 0) (#40)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:15:02 AM EST
    lessen the amount of drugs available?!
    I'm not just talking about cocaine.. what about meth?

    I think decriminalization makes sense, but I favor the strongest penalties for those who give drugs to children.  Here's my compromise: decriminalize drug use for a broad range of drugs, but only for adults:
    institute the death penalty for those who deal to people under age X, to be determined.

    [ Parent ]

    I think.... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:28:40 AM EST
    the market dictates what drugs are available, prohibition basically has no effect on the quantity of drugs available to users.

    It's anecdotal, but I run in illegal substance taking circles and nobody is unable to get what they want.  Take reefer for example, I read about a major reefer ring get busted every month or so, and I never have a problem scoring.

    [ Parent ]

    effect on the quantity of drugs (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:34:33 AM EST
    heres another little secret of the drug wars.
    they (cops) DO NOT WANT to make it unavailable.  they want it out there to justify their budgets and use it for property seizures and kickbacks.
    yes kickbacks.  
    another "benefit" of having cops in the family is that I know, for a fact, that cops are nearly always cut into the profits of local dealer.  
    said dealers usually only get busted when they dont come through or do something else they dont like.
    it is as corrupt a system as has ever existed in this country.


    [ Parent ]
    I hear that bro....n/t (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:44:04 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    being a cynic here! do you think the (none / 0) (#95)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:28:41 AM EST
    drug companies push these laws forward for monetary reasons? i do!

    [ Parent ]
    No (none / 0) (#126)
    by miked on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:14:12 AM EST
    Drug companies have no way of making profits on illegal drugs. Legalize them and we'll make a fortune, just like on OTC medications.

    Profit margins are better on patented prescription stuff, but manufacturing OTC products (like I assume recreational drugs would be if they were legalized) is quite profitable too and with alot less headaches.

    [ Parent ]

    ok, makes sense! thanks (none / 0) (#151)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:52:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Nothing new (none / 0) (#123)
    by miked on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:05:49 AM EST
    Same stuff that happened during Prohibition. You'd think we'd have learned our lesson from that.

    My grandpa did some stuff back in the 20's that was, er, not entirely legal at the time. He stayed best friends with one of the precinct captains from Paterson NJ until they were both over 90. It was a lifelong friendship. I'd say half of his old friends were cops, the rest wiseguys.

    There was big money in it because of Prohibition. And lo and behold, once prohibition ended grandpa found something else to do and did not attempt to compete with Seagram's.

    [ Parent ]

    Was he called Honey Fitz? (none / 0) (#159)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    lol

    [ Parent ]
    yes (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:20:16 AM EST
    I am sure it does not.
    I can, within a day, get you any drug you want any place in this country.


    [ Parent ]
    That is a non-answer. (none / 0) (#45)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:23:43 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    what do you mean its a non answer (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:29:58 AM EST
    you asked if it lessens the amount available.  I can tell you, based non only on personal experience but as I mentioned earlier that I have three cops in my family who LOVE the drug war and talk about it like the windfall that it is to them, that it does not.
    the underworld component makes it available in places that it would never be if it was legal and regulated.  they talk about this too.
    if you are really concerned about the availabiltiy to children, legalization and regulation is definitely the way to go.

    [ Parent ]
    I hope you realize that (none / 0) (#181)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 01:47:56 AM EST
    law enforcement officers sometimes read TalkLeft, even comment on it. Be careful what you say. I highly recommend you not admit to anything unlawful.

    [ Parent ]
    That WFB's position (none / 0) (#120)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:00:03 AM EST
    Interesting position, and one I would seriously consider, strangely its also the late William F. Buckley's position on the issue, literally to the letter, did you read him on this or just arrive at the same point.

    [ Parent ]
    yes (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:00:26 AM EST
    it should.  it is already available at the corner.
    the dirty little secret of the drug war is that anyone who wants to do drugs does drugs.
    they should be regulated and taxed.
    but it wont happen.  I have three cops in my family.
    the stupid drug war has been a windfall for local police departments as they seize assets to buy their toys.
    wont happen.

    Legalize it (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:27:47 AM EST
    One of the most dangerous, most addictive drugs around (alcohol) is legal and even tauted as a health food!  Every single argument made above about not legalizing coke could be made about alcohol.

    Yes, legalize.  Take the money out of the prison and law enforcement systems and put it all in treatment, education programs.  I suspect the cost would be lower.

    Gavin Newsom tried this is San Francisco. (none / 0) (#65)
    by tek on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:49:46 AM EST
    That city is such a mess now that the business people are threatening to bolt and take their businesses elsewhere.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe not the corner drug store... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:39:38 AM EST
    But the same place people buy cigarettes and alcohol, with the same rules applied (maybe use the alcoholic age restriction standard for cocaine).  Think of the amount of taxes the states and the Feds could rake in on that stuff, and instead of wasting money warring with our South Americans about it, the trade agreement would allow for even MORE money to be raked in.

    But I suppose then that the DEA (maybe change it to the Drug Regulation Agency) would be pretty bored, then....

    Don't get me started on the DEA.... (none / 0) (#76)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:56:55 AM EST
    as far as I'm concerned the DEA should be labelled a terrorist organization.

    I have personally been terrorized by a big black van full of them for the heinous crime of trying to score a nickel bag of funk.  Had the guns drawn on me and was sexually molested...the whole 9 tyrannical yards.

    [ Parent ]

    I (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by tek on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:48:24 AM EST
    lived through the hippie drug culture in the sixties and saw first hand the effects of drugs on people, even marijuana which is supposed to be benign and non-habit forming.  I really wish the left would back off from this drug talk.  If anybody doesn't realize it by now, this is one of the things that propelled Bush into office.  Soccer Moms are scared to death of this sort of thing.  When liberal media start touting legalizing dangerous drugs, average people flee the Democratic Party.

    When you look at all the celebrities in rehab, it's hard to say those knee-jerk reactions aren't somewhat justified.  Could there be anything sadder than Britney Spears?

    I hate to burst your balloon (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:51:08 AM EST
    but most of the people, at least the politicians, who are openly talking about this, are either republicans or libertarians.


    [ Parent ]
    Well that's what's wierd (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by miked on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:21:40 AM EST
    What I don't understand is, the pro-legalization sentiment is at least as strong if not stronger on the conservative/libertarian side, yet the whole topic remains politically radioactive. I don't get it.

    The most pernicious political sources of the "war on drugs" were probably Nixon and Reagan, but it isn't like many Democrats have pushed back on it. Clinton didn't do anything to tone it down at all. Bush's justice department has gone off the deep end with harassing doctors over painkillers, but the trends were all pointing that way already.

    And the crack vs. cocaine sentencing disparity - one of the major figures behind THAT was Charlie Rangel! What gives?

    [ Parent ]

    As you can see from the thread... (none / 0) (#132)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:51:32 AM EST
    a lot of people are under the impression that if drugs were legally available everybody's kid would be hopelessly addicted to something.  Never mind the fact that if theeir kids wanna do drugs they are readily available, though illegal.

    It's moronic, but it works, and politicians don't give a rat's arse about freedom or even sound policy...they just wanna win elections.  So they campaign on saving your kid from the "horrors" of drugs...and tyranny ensues.

    [ Parent ]

    Agreed (none / 0) (#84)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:06:00 AM EST
    Democrats are very much the "nanny party".

    [ Parent ]
    Yes they are.... (none / 0) (#89)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:14:46 AM EST
    the nanny party.

    Boy I wish we had a viable freedom party.

    [ Parent ]

    I wish (none / 0) (#121)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:01:47 AM EST
    Its a bit annoying I honestly thought we were pretty close to socially libertarian, except for on this issue (censorship ala Hill and Tipper Gore is also an exception).

    [ Parent ]
    Drugs were illegal in the 60's.... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:54:48 AM EST
    so your precious prohibition did what exactly?

    [ Parent ]
    btw (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:00:04 AM EST
    I lived through the hippie drug culture also.
    and I brought quite a different set of ideas away from it than you apparently did.
    even if most of my friends from then grew up to be republicans, I did not.
    I still think it was a golden age.  and the best years of my life.


    [ Parent ]
    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:52:22 AM EST
    I lived through the hippie drug culture in the sixties and saw first hand the effects of drugs on people

    Ooh! Drugs! We can't have that, now.

    Are you aware that most members of my generation are prescribed an amphetamine to keep them awake during class? It's called Adderall. Look it up.

    Thank god they aren't touching drugs, though.

    [ Parent ]

    The corps need a cut (none / 0) (#124)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:07:00 AM EST
    I don't wnat ot sound paranoid but I think at least for Marijuana its quite clear that Drugs are okay as long as the corporations can get a cut, I'd bet if Homegrowing pot, wasn't viable and instead it had to be grown like Tobacco, it would be completely legal.

    [ Parent ]
    There's a law on Tobacco? (none / 0) (#129)
    by miked on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:26:14 AM EST
    You mean its illegal for you to grow Tobacco in your back yard?

    No - the corporations can do it so efficiently that it isn't worth the hassle. If marijuana were legal the corporations would quickly figure out how to make money on it.

    I imagine the TV commercials would be interesting.

    [ Parent ]

    I have a black thumb.... (none / 0) (#133)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:54:31 AM EST
    I can't get a cactus to grow.  I'd gladly pay a corporation to grow my reefer for me.  I doubt I'm alone.  Americans, if nothing else, are a lazy sort:)

    [ Parent ]
    Lazy? Must be the pot. ;-) (none / 0) (#134)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:56:42 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Touche.... (none / 0) (#142)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:13:45 PM EST
    I don't bake my own cookies for the munchies either...those are store bought too.  Don't churn my own butter either:)

    [ Parent ]
    and what does Britany Spears (none / 0) (#70)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:51:53 AM EST
    have to do with anything but addiction to stardom?


    [ Parent ]
    Sometimes the moral thing isn't popular (none / 0) (#122)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:04:24 AM EST
    Honestly, I think ending the drug war might be well worth sacrificing the presidency, its like How Johnson lost us the South with Civil Rights, on some issues morality must trump political expedience (see: Why we must prevent Partial Birth Abortion Bans, or why we should push Gay Marriage or at the very least Civil Unions-- its not popular but its right).

    [ Parent ]
    well, i think there needs to be some (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:08:50 AM EST
    kind of regulation, but the war on drugs has failed. i just watched traffic again the other night. as someone who had to work at making sure my step father had enough medication for pain, i can assure you it is frustrating. the persecution of doctors who work with those in chronic pain just sets my teeth on edge.

    more and more and more regulation and no real success! that's what i see. it isn't working.

    Intensity is the thing. (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by corn on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:35:42 AM EST
    In London a couple of years ago a bar was selling liquor that you inhaled.  Vaporized it somehow.  Apparently one shot made you unable to walk.

    My point is that when thinking about legalizing drugs it's useful to consider the impact of watering them down.  Putting a little cocaine back in Coca-Cola, mild marijuana cigarettes, etc would be great.  If you had to drink two quarts of fluid to get into troublesome amounts of heroine it might not be too bad.  This is how it is with alcohol now.  

    There would still be some black market demand for stronger stuff, but that would wipe out most of it.

    that's right cocaine was in cola! (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:46:33 AM EST
    like i said, consider the history. the thing is it isn't working. i used to buy allergy medication at sam's in bulk in order not to keep running to the drug store each week. it was also less expensive that way. now it is behind the pharmacy. why? another regulation because someone abuses it. it just seems to me there are more and more regulations all the time and very few successes.

    [ Parent ]
    I call it Kindergarten justice...... (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:56:33 AM EST
    back in kindergarten, if one kid started eating the crayons the teacher took away all the crayons.

    You'd think as adults we would have matured a little, but no.  A certain percentage of drug users become addicts and cause some problems so the whole country gets their freedom taken away.  It's retarded.

    [ Parent ]

    i find myself agreeing with you a lot (none / 0) (#150)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:51:41 PM EST
    these days. have a nice one!

    [ Parent ]
    You too hellothere..... (none / 0) (#152)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:56:03 PM EST
    but I'd keep that to yourself if I was you:)

    [ Parent ]
    smile! (none / 0) (#153)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:08:13 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    No (none / 0) (#164)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 02:16:41 PM EST
    This is how it is with alcohol now

    4.5 oz of 80 proof anything will do the job nicely, at say 1.5 oz per shot.

    A 12 oz bottle of 6% beer is about .7 oz of alcohol, or two bottles equal 1 shot of Stoly.

    The issue becomes how fast you consume, and how fast your liver can burn off the effects.

    [ Parent ]

    I disagree; but you knew that. (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:01:15 AM EST


    oculus, what do you disagree with (none / 0) (#91)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:19:01 AM EST
    and how do you feel about the drug war? all of us have different experiences. it is a difficult topic at best.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree with the idea of legalizing (none / 0) (#172)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:30:44 PM EST
    cocaine.  Also heroin and meth.  

    [ Parent ]
    Methamphetamine Is Legal (none / 0) (#173)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:44:20 PM EST
    It is a prescription drug. Not over the counter though.

    [ Parent ]
    ok, i can see that. (none / 0) (#176)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:01:24 PM EST
    i guess my area of concern has been more with the laws. for example harrassing doctors who are working with the patients in chronic pain. or those who are first time users or not that involved in the process ie an end user! the laws in new york in my mind have always been way over the top. thanks

    [ Parent ]
    CA has much more liberal laws on (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 01:53:23 PM EST
    MJ.  However, MJ is still a Schedule I substance under federal law.  

    [ Parent ]
    mixed feelings (none / 0) (#4)
    by Nordic on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:17:42 AM EST
    I think cocaine is simply an evil drug.  Bad karma all around.  I've seen the lives of people I've known very well simply destroyed by cocaine.  

    It's probably the only drug I think should be illegal.  Of those drugs considered "recreational" anyway.  I mean, morphine, for example, should probably be prescription-only!

    I really don't have an answer (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by badger on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:41:20 AM EST
    but ... I'm not sure if what you say is true. I know people who have used cocaine (along with about anything else you can ingest) and simply grew out of it. I know people who have destroyed their lives with alcohol, or in combination with ritalin, Prozac, Paxil and their predecessors. I know people who have been strictly sober and have still destroyed their lives.

    And a lot of lives have been destroyed not directly by a particular substance, but by the way the legal system treats the substance.

    Before I'd decide one way or the other, I'd want to know whether as a society we're worse off with the current system, or would be worse of with legalization, because as you note, the current system provides plenty of room to destroy lives.

    It would seem there has to be some way to arrive at at least some tentative conclusion, either based on historical data (prior to the late 1930s) or the experience of countries which have gone the legalization route (I believe Portugal is one).

    I think most of us have only anecdotes, not evidence.

    [ Parent ]

    You think coke is bad ... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Meteor Blades on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:23:04 AM EST
    ...try meth.

    [ Parent ]
    MeteorBlades, Well there's crystal meth, (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:53:45 AM EST
    and then there's "peanut butter crank" - low grade, beige toned stuff that has too much moisture content to cut into a decent snortable powder. BTW, crank - essentially the same outcome but speedier.

    In my experience, the effect of either is largely dependent on the neurochemistry and the life-circumstances of the individual user. I knew people in service industries who abused and became non-productive (but enviably skinny); while others, in grad school, used it judiciously as a study aid, to focus and sustain concentration.

    In brief, the meth 'high' wasn't much different than coke, but cheaper and longer-acting.

    As for the long term consequences of many of these illegal substances; remember the impending generation of "crack babies" Ronald Regan dreamed up to perpetrate the War on Drugs?

    Well, it turned out the so-called crack babies were relatively unaffected compared to babies born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

    A number of my associates came out the other end as tenured academics, albeit in the arts.

    Re. drug legalization in general, do like the Dutch.

    [ Parent ]

    I have (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:19:01 AM EST
    over my long life I would say there is probably not a drug in circulation that I have not tried.  many more than once.
    and I somehow continue to be a taxpaying citizen never addicted to anything.  even tobacco, which by the way I have used once a week or twice a month for most of my life.
    a previous poster is absolutely correct.  it should be a question of counseling and addiction treatment.
    not a bunch of nanny state "we know what is good for you" crap.

    [ Parent ]
    I think you hit on the real answer (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Neal on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:03:03 AM EST
    different people are affected differently by different drugs. There are many more people addicted to sugar and suffer the health risks of it. Let's treat them all the same and help people that need help with what they need help with and leave those that don't need help alone.

    [ Parent ]
    well (none / 0) (#85)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:07:30 AM EST
    I do have a serious problem with chocolate.
    but in spite of the protests of my pants I do not think it should be illegal.

    [ Parent ]
    Not (none / 0) (#67)
    by tek on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:51:00 AM EST
    thanks.

    [ Parent ]
    well regulation is indeed needed. (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:21:15 AM EST
    but it just irritates me to see doctors afraid to prescribe pain medication to those who truly need it . it would appear this system is broken. the new york state drug laws would be a good example.

    [ Parent ]
    Morphine IS prescription only. (none / 0) (#50)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:29:03 AM EST
    You didn't think that morphine was illegal/not available by prescription, did you?  I'm on a daily low-dose of morphine.

    [ Parent ]
    Old (none / 0) (#108)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:58:46 AM EST
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Look, the fact that I don't use cocaine has nothing to do with the fact that it's illegal. I know people who use it and I could get some if I wanted. But I don't. I know people who've had their lives screwed up and those who haven't. I want no part of it regardless of Johnny Law's views on the matter.

    It's that simple. And if anyone feels that the long arm of the law is the only think keeping them away from all-consuming addiction, they should seek medical assistance.

    [ Parent ]

    ... and available as a Slushy flavor (none / 0) (#13)
    by roy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 02:06:59 AM EST
    Cocaine is incredibly bad for you, but if you choose to do bad things to yourself it's nobody else's business.  It also indirectly hurts those who care about you, but it's perverse to put people in prison because their families would miss them if they were gone.

    I find that I agree with you (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:37:00 AM EST
    and if everything wasn't Sooooooo llegal more consideration could and would be given to the study and education about those not so healthy for you illegal drugs.  And the people doing those not so healthy for you drugs wouldn't in some social aspect be "getting away with something", they would be simply choosing to hurt themselves.

    [ Parent ]
    Look at tobacco.... (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:42:56 AM EST
    always been legal, always been highly addictive, and it's use is on the decline because of education.

    We didn't have to throw anybody in jail, tear any families apart...we let people use it legally while spreading the word that the cancer sticks will kill ya.  

    Looks like a good model for other drugs to me.

    [ Parent ]

    As a smoker who has tried a lot of things (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by halstoon on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:43:19 PM EST
    I can say that cigarettes are the most gripping, addictive thing I ever did. They are also infinitely more likely to kill you than a drug like marijuana.

    Cocaine is not good, but it is easier to walk away from than a cigarette.

    Ever noticed how everybody in rehab still smokes? It's just that ingrained in us smokers.

    [ Parent ]

    I love me some tobacco..... (none / 0) (#154)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:13:08 PM EST
    Imagine the uber-black market that would flourish if the man ever prohibited tobacco.

    We'd be one nation under the mob.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, Jeezus. The murder rate would (none / 0) (#156)
    by halstoon on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:20:44 PM EST
    skyrocket. You'd see old grannies and gramps creepin' in the hood to get a fix alongside all the other junkies.

    It'd be chaos. Anarchy would reign. They just thought Al Capone was bad. The cigarette mafia would be ruthless.

    ;o)

    Good point!

    [ Parent ]

    The drug war has not worked (none / 0) (#15)
    by KLCarten on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 03:29:16 AM EST
    I have mixed feelings on this.  On one hand if the govt regulates it like prescrition drugs. Use the money for education and medical help. I think that might help kids not try it, its not taboo anymore.  Frankly, whats the fun in doing something thats legal. I always feel it that if people have facts it tends on helping make smarter decisions. I had a health class in the 80s that discussed sex ed and drug. I will be honest the drug ed scared me to death.  On the other hand will the govt be able to keep the drugs off the street and not make it profitable.

    On a personal side, I am disabled and in constant pain.  I have to take painkillers and it hard to deal with it. I have to go thru a semi-consuling with the pain management.  I have no problems with that, I worry if I have to drive and get pulled over.  I worry about having my medicine in the car with me.  Its all discussed in my pain management.  I dont know if all are like this, but I am glad that my doctor trys to make ever effort for patients.  I guess if the govt regulates the stronger pain killers, then they can regulate some of the lesser harsh drugs.  Especially if they do consuling and help lines.
    Its late so I hope that this makes sense and isnt rambling.

    I would like to remind some people (none / 0) (#17)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:28:50 AM EST
    that Cocaine and Morphine and cannabidiol are already part of the medical therapies being used today legally.

    Oui. (none / 0) (#52)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:32:05 AM EST
    Though through my own experience I've never heard of cocaine therapy.  I'm on morphine therapy.  And the cannabis pills are waaay to expensive/don't get covered by my insurance.

    [ Parent ]
    They use cocaine as a numbing agent (none / 0) (#113)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:35:45 AM EST
    in some dental surgery procedures.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (none / 0) (#143)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 12:22:27 PM EST
    That was one of cocaine's original uses, before they hit it with the ban stick.

    [ Parent ]
    its still in the formulary (none / 0) (#167)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 03:19:08 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I say no (none / 0) (#18)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:54:18 AM EST
    legalize drugs? then you have to supply government funded rehab for those who get addicted to the legalized drugs(something I think should already be supplied for alcoholics and caffeine/nicotine addicts).

    Or, Or we could just fund church programs to counsel addicts out of being addicts.  If everyone had enough church in em no one would ever want to use drugs in the first place....right Mr. Bush?

    Heh? (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:59:30 AM EST
    you said

    then you have to supply government funded rehab for those who get addicted to the legalized drugs(something I think should already be supplied for alcoholics and caffeine/nicotine addicts).

    Problem is we already supply goverment funded rehab for those addicted to illegal drugs.  That don't even count the Billions used to
    keep them in prisons and jails.

    [ Parent ]

    Cost benefit ratio should win over the GOP (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:15:54 AM EST
    I would think the fact that incarceration is 40k+ a year (and this doesn't count the massive drug war costs) which would basically cover Hollywood level rehab for a month, should argue pretty strongly for legalization. Also the fact that there's a prison lobby is well, (excuse my language please, but this is seriously a tragedy, and a in application basically an extension of Jim Crow) fucking disgusting.

    [ Parent ]
    but, but (none / 0) (#19)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 05:58:52 AM EST
    we d