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Legitimizing The Nominee

By Big Tent Democrat

For all the wailing and moaning from NBC, especially Punchline Olbermann, host of the Obama News Hour, and some of the Left blogs about Hillary Clinton staying in the race, one has to wonder what they think of Barack Obama's failure to win either Ohio or Texas. The desperate ones have now learned the virtue of closed primaries, arguing the Rush Limbaugh tipped Republicans to Clinton in Texas. Todd Beeton points out, apparently Limbaugh holds great sway over Independents as well, who also moved strongly to Clinton. Of course they won't like my solution, let's have closed primaries.

I have said this since Super Tuesday - Barack Obama needs to demonstrate he can win a big contested state important in the general election. He has won his home state. He has won heavily African American Georgia. That's it. It is true he won Wisconsin convincingly and seems to have electoral advantages in Colorado, Nevada (which he lost) and New Mexico. But this election will be won or lost in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Florida. If Obama can not perform well in these states, it will be extremely difficult for him in November. Luckily, 3 of these 4 states may have contests to allow Obama to prove his mettle and put a stamp of legitimacy on his potential nomination. I'll explain what I mean by legitimacy on the flip.

Do you know when the pledged delegate count became the single criteria by which a nominee could be crowned? When Obama's spin about it, which started in Nevada, was swallowed wholesale. Look at this post by Chris Bowers:

On at least three occasions, Clinton had a chance to finish Obama off: Iowa, South Carolina and Super Tuesday. Every time, the voters decided otherwise. On two occasions, Obama had a chance to finish Clinton off: New Hampshire and March 4th. Once again, the voters said "not yet." On every occasion, the frontrunner failed to finish the job, and the nomination campaign lurched forward

I mostly agree with Chris but I think he misses the fact that Obama had the chance to knock out Clinton on Super Tuesday too. But he lost Massachusetts, New Jersey and California.

But consider what Chris is saying - it would not be because the pledged delegate count that either Clinton or Obama would have knocked the other out - my gawd, they were basically tied after New Hampshire no matter what. It would have been because of the legitimacy winning both Iowa and New Hampshire would have conferred on Obama after Clinton came into the campaign as the perceived fsvorite.

Similarly, a decisive win on Super Tuesday by either Obama or Clinton would have knocked one or the other out because it would have conferred all the legitimacy on a big winner of the contests that day. Would the pledged delegate counts have reflected that it was over? Of course not.

Indeed, what is conclusive that the pledged delegate count has never been viewed as the decisive factor is the utter lack of care for democracy that is employed in the delegate allotment and selection system. Some defend the system as part building boons. But the defense itself undermines the system as a critical nomination criteria. You would not undermine the democratic elements of the selection process just for party building purposes if you REALLY believed it was the decisive factor in choosing the nominee. The nominee selection is too important for that. Think about it. Under the Democratic system, because of the fact that Super Delegates make up 25% of all delegates, it is virtually impossible for a nominee to go over the top with just pledged delegates. If the delegate count was the decisive criteria it is now painted as, how could we possibly have accepted having so many super delegates?

No, it is clear that the process is set up with the idea that the ACTUAL pledged delegate count is sort of a lagging indicator that catches up ONCE THE NOMINEE IS SELECTED! Consider every pledged delegate count in every Democratic nomination contest, well, ever. The pledged delegate counts did not determine when the race was over. The nominee was selected by gaining legitimacy by other means. The other mean was winning states. Key states.

This year the flawed delegate selection system has run into a very close race with two very viable candidates with plenty of money. The usual process by which we select our nominee has been utterly shortcircuited. So we are presented with a brave new world for determining who our nominee will be and how that nominee achieves legitimacy.

After Super Tuesday, I identified Barack Obama's key failing for gaining legitimacy as his failure to win key large contested states. On March 4, that failing became magnified.

Obama has at least another chance to legitimize himself as the nominee - Pennsylvania. But he can also have two other chances - if he, Clinton and Howard Dean have a lick of sense - revote Florida and Michigan. That this will also have a very beneficial effect for the Democrats in November is no small issue.

As for Clinton, right now the only way she has of legitimizing herself as the nominee is to win all the big states, perform well in other states not perceived as favorable to her AND select Barack Obama as her running mate.

Let's be clear, Obama has the easier road and is more likely to emerge as a legitimate nominee than Clinton. But both have paths to do it. There is work to be done and decisions to be made. Ending the campaign now would be disastrous.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Been waiting all morning for you (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:47:22 AM EST
    Only got to read half though and must return later since my husband bought me a latte but it looks like a paintbrush is attached to it :(

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:48:35 AM EST
    Sorry. I am slowing down my postings here so many will be longer form.  

    [ Parent ]
    I have been checking since early this AM too. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Boston Boomer on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:09:55 AM EST
    BTD, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but you are the greatest.  I should have come over here a long time ago when you first left the big place.  It is a pleasure to read your writing.  Your analyses are always interesting and fair.  Thank you for being here.

    I do hope Dean will be more proactive soon about helping MI and FLA have a revote.  I wonder if the problem is that Obama really doesn't want it to happen?  Or is it that the party leadership wants him to maintain his pledged delegate lead for now?


    [ Parent ]

    why (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:51:03 AM EST
    sorry to hear that

    [ Parent ]
    Can't be helped (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:56:49 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I was wondering how you were (none / 0) (#60)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:32:57 AM EST
    getting the lawyering done. Heh. Billable blogging hours = $$$ zero  zilch.

    [ Parent ]
    A latte? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:49:18 AM EST
    You're an Obama voter?

    [ Parent ]
    Ha! (none / 0) (#175)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:39:09 PM EST
    Not in overalls holding a True Value Hardware paintbrush ;)  I'm just a Clinton flunky being bribed.  I am having wine tonight too with my cheese fondue, don't get excited though because every Obama supporter knows that whine and cheese are symptoms of Clintonianism.

    [ Parent ]
    Ending the would be disastrous. (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:50:18 AM EST
    David Greenberg over at Slate puts the "the race must end!!" stuff in some context:

    It's too early to talk about Hillary's withdrawal.

    The calls to wrap up the Democratic primary race show a similar amnesia. To suggest that March 5 marks a late date in the calendar ignores the duration of primary seasons past. Indeed, were Hillary Clinton to have pulled out of the race this week, Obama would have actually clinched a contested race for the party's nomination earlier than almost any other Democrat since the current primary system took shape--the sole exception being John Kerry four years ago. Fighting all the way through the primaries, in other words, is perfectly normal.
    We should also bear in mind that Obama holds a much slimmer lead over Clinton than McGovern, Carter, and Mondale held over their closest challengers--or, for that matter, than any of the nomination-bound front-runners in the elections since. As of this writing, Clinton is actually tied with Obama among Democratic voters nationally in the Gallup daily tracking poll.

    As long as this primary season has lasted, it's still--amazing to say--relatively early in the calendar. In all likelihood, the Democrats will arrive at a nominee by June. But even if it takes a convention to settle the race, there will still be more than 10 weeks until Election Day--a span, we would do well to recall, that is a mite longer than the veritable lifetime that has already seemed to have elapsed since this year's Iowa caucuses on Jan. 3.

    This is not what I would have chosen for us (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:56:08 AM EST
    But it is what it is.

    [ Parent ]
    more good advise from TPM (none / 0) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:01:01 AM EST
    I think one thing is clear this far into the Democratic primary race: Both Obama's and Clinton's supporters must now drop out of the race.

    Hillary Clinton's supporters have gotten incredibly annoying, with their chants of "Yes She Can," and charges of cultism and their desperate yelps of schadenfreude every time Clinton looks like she might actually be "recapturing the lead" that she never had.

    And Obama's supporters, yes, you too are incredibly annoying, with your accusations of Clintonian Republicanism and your whiny little cries about how you're going to take your ball and run home if your candidate doesn't win the primary.

    Supporters of both candidates, please listen closely. For the good of the Party -- no, for the good of the Nation! -- the time has come for you to leave this race.

    [ Parent ]

    Not so. (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by tek on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:52:21 AM EST
    Who needs to get out of the race is the D. C. politicians.  They should have stayed out of it from the get-go so we could have had a truly democratic process.  Do we need Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Tom Daschle and Dick Durbin to decide who the Democratic nominee will be?  Do we need a bunch of male senators to pick the candidate for us?  No these people should shut up and stay out of it until the candidate is nominated.  Then get in and support that candidate.

    I find it interesting that all four of these men who "drafted" Obama had presidential aspirations that came to naught.  Not one of them could begin to wage a campaign the calibre of Hillary Clinton's, but in spite of that they insert themselves into the process and try to take the American People's choice away from them.

    The Good Old Boys Club--Kingmakers all...and thoroughly disgusting.

    And for that matter, do we really need Keith Olbermann and a bunch of self-important, misogynistic bloggers to dictate the candidate to us?  Arianna Huffington's All Obama All the Time blog is especially ironic.  Too bad so many people in this country have lost all understanding of democracy.

    [ Parent ]

    Um, you're not listening (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Cream City on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:56:21 AM EST
    as that's not what Clinton supporters "chant."

    And your line is clever, about supporters dropping out, but silly.  It is silly season, but -- well, again, this shows in several ways that you're not listening closely and actually are insulting to both camps here.  

    So what we may need most is for pundits to drop out.

    [ Parent ]

    Lousy Advice for candidate.Good for supporters. (none / 0) (#48)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:27:20 AM EST
    To end it now without a clear winner? I think if Hillary dropped out right now, woman actually would feel cheated. Not that she had to drop out and the man stayed, but more that a woman gave up when she is this <> close to being our leader. This <> close to breaking the ultimate glass ceiling. The Hillary/Obama ticket would give her 8 years and him 16 and a world of experience for both. The best of all worlds. Yep, that is the ticket.

    [ Parent ]
    It really is a Dream Ticket... (none / 0) (#84)
    by sweetthings on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:48:56 AM EST
    And it's just as imaginary.

    Does anyone seriously believe this whole 16-year meme? When was the last time that happened? How can it ever happen in the media culture we live in? We Americans demand a new house every 5 years...does anyone seriously think we're going to be happy with the same leaders for 16?

    Which is not to say that Hillary/Obama or Obama/Hillary won't happen. It very well may. But it won't give us 16 years in the White House no matter which way it goes. We'll be lucky if it gives us 8.

    [ Parent ]

    right now (none / 0) (#89)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:56:05 AM EST
    I will happily settle for 4

    [ Parent ]
    As will I. (none / 0) (#93)
    by sweetthings on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:58:21 AM EST
    I'm not against the Dream Ticket...heck, it may be the only way out of our current mess. But let's not pretend it gives Obama 8 years of training to President. It gives him 4-8 years as VP and a ticket to the lecture circuit.

    [ Parent ]
    And GW can't wait to get out of the WH (none / 0) (#104)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:10:11 AM EST
    He is planning his lecture circuit right now. He thought this WH thing would be fun and he could run it from Texas. Well, no, like he said, it is hard workkkk............

    [ Parent ]
    Or a ticket to (none / 0) (#138)
    by oldpro on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:07:36 AM EST
    the Supreme Court.

    [ Parent ]
    i love that people are calling for her to drop out (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Turkana on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:52:07 AM EST
    because her big night, tuesday, will extend the process. i guess she should have lost; then, maybe people would let her continue...

    once again, i agree with you. as i wrote yesterday, the race now comes down to who can make the best argument to the super delegates. that's now very much up in the air.

    The die was cast. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:54:53 AM EST
    Folks were expecting Clinton to fall further behind on Tuesday.  You already saw the "Surrender, Hillary" idea spreading last weekend.  When it didn't go the way people expected they either couldn't switch gears fast enough or else figure "why not give it a try anyway"?

    [ Parent ]
    I read (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by tek on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:57:18 AM EST
    that Nancy Pelosi has told the Superdelegates to stay out of the election, i.e., no more jumping or endorsing.  She told them it's not their role, it's not determined yet whether or not they will be needed, and they should stay in the background until the convention at which time the Party will know if the Supers will have a role.  A surprising display of backbone from our Follow-the-Boys Speaker of the House.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama out spent Clinton in Ohio and Texas, (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Marguerite Quantaine on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:11:57 AM EST
    maybe even in Rhode Island, by 2 or 3 or 4 to 1 (depending on who's writing the news), but at LEAST by 2 to 1, and he still lost Ohio, Texas, and Rhode Island.

    Ok, ok, 76,000 people in Vermont voted and he won the majority of those. Not all. But a good majority. Enough said.

    The point is, if you have the most money and the biggest momentum and still lose, talking about delegate numbers doesn't wash until ALL the states have voted.

    Hillary may need 60% of those, but as long as the voters are given the opportunity, she could easily get 60%. Perhaps more.

    Until they vote, we won't know.

    Does this remind any of you of Al Gore and him being a good guy and conceding the election before all the votes were counted and the people spoke? "For the good of the country."

    Well, it didn't do the country much good, did it?

    So, for Dean and Donna to decide this before ALL the votes are counted is to once again disenfranchise the voters.

    Isn't that what we complain Republicans do, and maintain Democrats don't do? Won't do?

    As far as the polls telling us who is more likely to beat McCain -- Clinton or Obama?

    Face it. Polls can be askewed SO easily to reflect whomever the Republicans want to run against McCain. They do NOT reflect who has the best chance of beating him.

    Because as long as the Democrats don't disenfranchise Florida and Michigan, EITHER candidate will beat McCain in a landslide.

    But if you disenfranchise Florida and Michigan?

    Kiss it goodbye.

    Just looked at Hillary's website (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by dk on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:12:36 AM EST
    and she has apparently brought in around $3.6 million in the last 24 hours or so.  Not bad, I'd say.

    Yep, it has been announced on CNN (none / 0) (#113)
    by Cream City on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:18:16 AM EST
    and elsewhere -- and a proven fundraiser is a crucial argument for a candidate, too.  

    And weren't we supposed to hear yesterday about Obama having a bigger month and about 50 new super-delegates for him?  Hmmmm.

    [ Parent ]

    Another Blogger on Legitimacy (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by BDB on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:12:43 AM EST
    Anglachel is here.  A pro-Clinton blogger to be sure, but I think some of what she writes about the current tendency to fetishize the pledged delegate count, like your post on the subject BTD, is dead on.

    The swipes at bama mar the post (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:18:57 AM EST
    imo.

    [ Parent ]
    It's a fine line (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:12:55 AM EST
    between presenting spin about who ought to be considered "the choice of the people," and making reckless arguments that actually undermine the nominee of the party.

    Clinton can argue that she ought to be the nominee because she has won the big states, she has won the most important swing states, she has won the popular vote (maybe), or whatever other argument she chooses to advance.  Maybe people will buy it, and maybe they won't, but either way our nominee will be just fine.  If the superdelegates reject those arguments and decide that Obama's ability to bring in new voters is more important, Clinton's argument will simply become irrelevant.

    Obama's argument, on the other hand, has the potential to hurt the party because he is actually claiming that it would be illegitimate for the superdelegates to crown anyone other than the pledged delegate leader.  Every day on the blogs, you see threats that the party will be torn apart, there will be blood in the streets at the convention, and so forth, if the superdelegates don't behave as the Obama campaign wants them to.  This is a direct result of supporters taking their cues from the campaign.  And if the superdelegates ultimately accept the Clinton argument, and give her the nomination despite a thin lead in pledged delegates by Obama, some number of Obama supporters will inevitably decide this amounts to election theft and refuse to support the party in November.  Thus Obama's fallacious argument ends up hurting us all.

    I understand that Obama is basically doing what he's got to do in making this argument, but he's certainly walking a fine line.

    Meh (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:18:02 AM EST
    The problem is not the spin, it is the wholesale swallowing of it.

    I do not blame Obama for that.

    I will say this, he has no choice but to accept the VP slot if it comes down to that.

    [ Parent ]

    Does that explain the seeming (none / 0) (#42)
    by Virginian on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:23:10 AM EST
    advantage Obama is having in convincing SDs to support him? The wholesale swallowing of his spin?

    [ Parent ]
    I think they supported him (none / 0) (#159)
    by ChrisO on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:41:59 PM EST
    because they thought he was going to be the winner, and wanted to get on board. They just forgot the part about the voters putting a crimp in his plans. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who got on board after Wisconsin did so out of expediency, and not because they thought he was the best person to be President.

    [ Parent ]
    What? (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by tek on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:42:38 AM EST
    You don't think California is important?

    I worry about new contests in MI and FL because of all the violations I've read about from the Obama camp.  I have no confidence that this man will not do everything he can to steal new primaries.  Don't ya know, that's the trademark of politics in Chicago?

    Why (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Sunshine on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:08:48 AM EST
    Why should Florida and Michigan be redone, the people there have already voted..  There was a very high turnout, so they took it serious and knew it might be counted later.. The people there knew what was going on, they don't live in a vacuum.. You don't have to be in Florida to campaign in Florida, they have access to national TV, in fact the only person who had a national TV ad on at the time was Obama and they were watching other primaries..  Now that Obama supporters think he would have done better if it had been held later want a re-do.. There is a lot of things Hillary would re-do if she knew then what she knows now....

    Because some FL & MI people didn't assume that (none / 0) (#153)
    by ItsGreg on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:08:25 PM EST
    You say "There was a very high turnout, so they took it serious and knew it might be counted later."

    Yes, there WAS a record turnout. But we don't know how many people did NOT vote because they'd already been informed their delegates would NOT be seated.

    This isn't just an Obama issue. Of the four people I know in Florida who stayed home because they knew the primary wasn't going to count, three are women who support of Hillary.

    A re-vote would be a true test of support for both candidates. The voters would know how important their votes were, and we'd see an even greater response than before. And there's no reason to think Hillary wouldn't win for real the next time.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry, BTD, he is not going to win PA (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by goldberry on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:53:55 AM EST
    No way, no how.  If my mother, the 2 time Bush voter in Central PA tells me that she is an enthusiastic supporter of Clinton, it bodes very ill indeed for Obama.  
    Seriously.  After OH and TX, the mind naturally starts to accept Clinton as the nominee.  Everyone knows that Obama has failed to win any of the big states outside of Illinois and Georgia.  As the Big Dawg said, if she won OH and TX, she will be the nominee and I believe it.  She is passing all of the  "hard" tests while Obama is picking the low hanging fruit.  
    The perception is getting fixed, BTD.  Obama can not win.  

    As the popular vote now stands, (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by ChrisO on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:05:20 AM EST
    Obama has a lead in the popular vote of about half of a percentage point. If the delegates were assigned by the same ratio, he would have a 15 delegate lead. All of the puffery from the Obama camp is just that. They want the nomination? Win 2,025 delegates. Short of that, you didn't get the job done, and the nomination doesn't just get handed to you like all of your legislative "victories" in Illinois, or your house purchase.

    The caucuses are what they are, and Obama won most of them. I would never argue that they shouldn't count. But I fail to see how an ability to get a small core of dedicated supporters to overwhelm a caucus translates to "the will of the people."  

    Insisting that your opponent should drop out in the middle of a close race is really weak. If Obama's the nominee, and he has a half-point lead in the polls in October, will he start demanding that McCain drop out, because a contentious election will "wreck the country"?

    I agree that Obama's camp has done a good job of framing the story so that the candidate with the most pledged delegates automatically deserves the nomination, the rules be damned. I was going to say they did a masterful job, but it's not hard to spin when the press is sitting there with steno pads, waiting to take down your every word. Thank God the worm seems to be turning on that one, and thnak God for Tina Fey. I was in love with her before all this, but now I'm like a schoolboy.

    Don't you know Obama won. . . (none / 0) (#3)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:48:38 AM EST
    Texas?  At least according to Kos.  (And it's not ridiculous in a delegate contest to consider the delegate leader the winner notwithstanding the extreme weirdness of the electoral system).

    You continue assert that Obama has not shown he can win any of the "big" states that are important in the general election.  But you confound winning the primary in those states with winning the general.

    In most states both Clinton and Obama have soundly thrashed the Republicans in absolute primary votes cast.  Additionally, polling shows that the vast majority of voters supporting the candidates would happily vote for the other in the general election (although I can see this possibly changing if things get really uqly).  The fact that Clinton or Obama may have won a particular state is in no way evidence that the other wouldn't carry the state in the general.  I simply don't understand this part of your argument.

    Did you enjoy the Dukakis Presidency? (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:53:40 AM EST
    1988 was the highwater year for turnout in Democratic primaries.

    But to answer you in a more serious vein - because this contest has very definable demographic trends.

    Obama's weaknesses are the most vulnerable for a Dem in a general election. If he is having trouble with Latinos, Seniors, white women and working class men, he puts key states in jeopardy.

    I think you have read me on this subject.

    BTW, how does Kos know what the delegate breakdown was in the Texas caucus? The results were not reported.  

    [ Parent ]

    Now you're putting. . . (none / 0) (#30)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:14:10 AM EST
    Obama's weaknesses are the most vulnerable for a Dem in a general election. If he is having trouble with Latinos, Seniors, white women and working class men, he puts key states in jeopardy.

    some meat on the bones of your argument.

    You name four groups Obama has demographic difficulties with.  Of the four, I think Democratic seniors and white women would largely go with him over McCain -- his problems there are only in the context of a Clinton/Obama intra-party contest.  Saying Obama has a problem with white women is like saying Clinton has a problem with African American voters.

    Working class men I'm unsure of.

    Latinos is where I think there's a real problem.  Because McCain isn't bad on those issues which are widely believed to be of particular interest to the Latino community I think there's a real argument to be made that Clinton would have an edge in those states in which Latino participation could affect the outcome.  Your argument then rests on how many such states are actually in play in the general election.  The two biggest prizes where I think it might be an issue are Texas and California -- do you believe either are up for grabs?

    [ Parent ]

    Clinton does NOW have (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:22:43 AM EST
    a problem with A-As. As Obama does NOW have a problem with white women.

    IT is one of the main reasons I think they have to run together no matter who is the nominee.

    The problem is not that they will vote for McCain in great numbers, though white women are certainly more gettable for McCain than A-As, but that they will not vote in the numbers we need.

    [ Parent ]

    This is something that upsets me (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by zyx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:36:48 AM EST
    about Obama supporters.

    The ones I talk to cannot admit that Obama has problems with any key states, such as Ohio or Pennsylvania or perhaps New Mexico.  And they cannot admit that he has problems with key voter segments.  They are just incredibly impatient that everyone doesn't shut up and see that Obama can beat McCain and why don't we stop this nonsense.

    And these are some of the more RATIONAL Obama people I have tried to talk to.

    [ Parent ]

    Honestly speaking. (none / 0) (#134)
    by Arbitrarity on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:56:07 AM EST
    Both candidates have problems with key demographics.

    A supporter of either candidate who denies this is being silly at best.

    [ Parent ]

    Don't Forget The Soccer Moms (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by MO Blue on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:32:59 AM EST
    that helped defeat Kerry. Not to mention the fact that many women are extremely ticked at what they consider double standards that have occurred at all levels in this campaign. Calls for her to drop out of the campaign by Dems after her big win will only make this worse IMO.

    [ Parent ]
    Gore and Kerry both lost (none / 0) (#55)
    by Kathy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:31:05 AM EST
    because of base supporters staying home.  When I see Obama, I see the same sort of intellectual elitism that pushed voters away from Kerry.

    Say what you will about Clinton, but she has rallied the base and made them feel like they are part of the process again.  That is key to winning.  And she gets some independents and republicans, too.

    [ Parent ]

    Gore lost for a variety of reasons (none / 0) (#61)
    by Virginian on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:35:11 AM EST
    not withstanding voter disenfranchisement by the SCOTUS.

    But one big reason is his taking things for granted...ie. Tenn.

    [ Parent ]

    Point being (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Virginian on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:36:15 AM EST
    Obama taking Democrats for granted...it is dangerous to make assumptions...he needs to sure up the base to make a legitimacy arguement

    [ Parent ]
    true (none / 0) (#67)
    by Kathy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:38:23 AM EST
    but if the base dems had not stayed home-especially in TN-then Florida would have been a non-issue.

    [ Parent ]
    Specifically in Tenn (none / 0) (#77)
    by Virginian on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:44:04 AM EST
    Gore took 51% of the popular vote...Obama or Clinton aren't going to have a 55%-45% split in the GE, it will probably be 51-49 again or something close to it.

    Gore performed well, lets not take anything away from him. But he did take Tenn for granted, and had he not, he would have won Tenn, and FL would not have mattered. Mehlman saw that Gore wasn't campaigning there and though of it as an opportunity to make a steal (and he boasted about it too) but Brazile thought it would be in the bag regardless of Mehlman's $$$s spent there...she was wrong (surprising right? /snark)

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know. (none / 0) (#125)
    by Arbitrarity on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:36:37 AM EST
    I'd say the AA vote is a pretty strong base that she hasn't made a single inroad into.

    [ Parent ]
    Gore lost? (none / 0) (#139)
    by Marguerite Quantaine on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:08:04 AM EST
    Gore won the nation's popular vote by over 1 million American ballots.

    He conceded Florida, and stepped aside for the "good of the country."

    If you're going to rewrite history, at least give Gore the credit he's due.

    Pul-leeeease.

    Now Kerry.

    Kerry lost.

    [ Parent ]

    Empircal evidence. . . (none / 0) (#56)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:31:12 AM EST
    that white women will stay home if Obama is the nominee while african american voters will turn out for Clinton in the same numbers as for Obama?

    [ Parent ]
    The closest I have is the Pew Poll (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:43:34 AM EST
    where 22% of Dems defect from Obama to McCain.

    I assume they are not A-As.

    [ Parent ]

    it doesn't seem to me that (none / 0) (#94)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:58:37 AM EST
    obama's advisors think that way. i am supposing here, but what they see is winner take all. they see themselves winning and kicking hillary to the curb. maybe that works in chicago, but it won't work in the ge.

    [ Parent ]
    Sadly, I agree. nt (none / 0) (#122)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:30:41 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I disagree (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:25:06 AM EST
    as strenuously as possible with the idea that Democratic seniors will all come home to Obama in the end.  I have seen more counterexamples than I can count.  My 92-year old grandfather who has voted for every Dem since FDR absolutely can't stand Obama, for one, and I've never seen him this way regarding a Dem before.  The way I think of it is that if you can't at least hold Mondale's base, you have a GE problem.

    Some Latinos may stay home if Clinton isn't the nominee, but McCain will probably get far more crossovers among the senior population than from any of these other groups we're talking about.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm with you (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Kathy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:35:52 AM EST
    on the seniors.  Anyone who has talked to their grandparents (or elderly parents) know that this generation values safety first and foremost.  They think that Obama is too wet behind the ears to keep them safe.

    (haha, as does Obama's own foreign policy advisor admits that he's not prepared.  LINK)

    [ Parent ]

    In the end (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:41:57 AM EST
    if Obama is the nominee, I'm probably going to have to guilt Grandpa into voting for him by pointing out that it is my daughter, and not him, who is going to get stuck fighting in John McCain's wars.

    The problem the seniors tend to have with Obama is not so much that he's a rookie but that he comes across as a very disrespectful one.  The way he trashes the 90s and basically the whole Democratic Party legacy as if he's the first good thing to happen to the party in a generation doesn't sit well with these folks.

    [ Parent ]

    anecdotal, for sure, (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by OldCoastie on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:45:42 AM EST
    but I find myself in a similar position with my very old mother... has always voted democratic but just doesn't like Obama... I think he comes across as a smart-alecky kid to her and it really rubs her the wrong way...

    [ Parent ]
    Same with my dad (none / 0) (#141)
    by jen on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:27:18 AM EST
    Always voted Dem. Says if O's the nominee he will leave that part of the ballot blank.

    [ Parent ]
    same with my mom and aunt (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by caseyOR on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:32:08 PM EST
    My mother and my aunt,both of whom live in Illinois, have always voted dem., straight ticket every time. They cannot stand Obama. Say he hasn't done one single thing for Illinois, acts like a" know-it-all", is bad on the safety net issues, and is disrespectful to voters. By the way, this is my first post ever. So relieved to find this site.

    [ Parent ]
    Welcome, Casey (none / 0) (#166)
    by plf1953 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:24:20 PM EST
    The folks here just seem to have a nice, civil conversation going on most of the time.

    [ Parent ]
    obama seems to make a lot of (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:55:31 AM EST
    assumptions that aren't accurate. he thinks going negative will get him the nomination? no! he thinks that the hillary voters are his in the ge? no! he thinks the media will be his in the ge? no! he thinks that the rezko mess won't follow him? no!

    i personally don't see how obama can even imagine winning the general election if he brings the race card back out. i assume that is what he means about the negative campaigning. take a look at the dog whistle and the kos bruhaha. personally for me, i can't vote for obama. i'll write hillary's name in, but i can't cast a vote for him even holding my nose. i didn't come here with that idea. i was an edwards supporter when i arrived. but obama's pandering to the dark side with the homophobic preacher, the race card, the gender card, division between the generations, dissing the clinton presidency, lack of real policies that appeal to me, and now the wink, wink, hint, hint, chuckle, chuckle about nafta says to me, no, heck no!

    [ Parent ]

    Another HUGE Obama blunder (none / 0) (#69)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:39:47 AM EST
    that goes to electability.

    HUGE.

    [ Parent ]

    Agree, Seniors Are Going To Be A Real Problem (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by MO Blue on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:26:47 AM EST
    for Obama. IMO, he added to his already existing problem by stating that there was a crisis on Social Security. Social Security is the one thing that people expect the Democrats to defend at all costs and now he is putting that in doubt.

    [ Parent ]
    So you are not familiar (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:21:02 AM EST
    with my posts on the subject.

    I have written a side of beef on the demographic issue.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm not familar with. . . (none / 0) (#53)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:29:33 AM EST
    any posts of yours that demonstrate that Obama will not get the votes of Clinton supporters who are white women, seniors, or working class men.  Or any posts in which you argue that he won't get Clinton-supporting hispanics (although I think that's a danger myself).

    If you'd be kind enough to point me to the posts in which you make that argument I'd be happy to do my homework on the issue.

    [ Parent ]

    I now have a project (none / 0) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:44:17 AM EST
    I'll gather the evidence.

    [ Parent ]
    Latinos are important in Florida as well (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:23:41 AM EST
    Can McCain make a run at Cali? Probably not.

    But he can make Obama work hard for it.


    [ Parent ]

    I agree with all the points. . . (none / 0) (#59)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:32:49 AM EST
    in this comment.  As for Texas and California, I was  not making a rhetorical point -- based on the primary results, I could foresee Clinton at least making McCain work for Texas.  I do wonder if either state might be in play this year.

    [ Parent ]
    I think neither is in play (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:42:42 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Texas will be RED. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Angel on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:45:29 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    They are two of the best. . . (none / 0) (#86)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:52:52 AM EST
    arguments for your thesis that Obama needs to prove he can win states in which he might face demographic challenges.

    Florida is another excellent example.

    What other states are you worried about Obama in?

    And if you think he's really in danger of losing important battleground states do you believe that's a more important factor than his media status in choosing who to support?

    [ Parent ]

    New Jersey (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Lou Grinzo on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:24:36 AM EST
    The latest polling I've seen says Clinton beats McCain in NJ, but Obama loses to McCain (or is within the MOE).

    I think we have to consider NJ not just a pivotal state, but a harbinger.  If a lot of middle aged white voters decide, "OK, the rock concert was fun, we had our one night stand with the star, but now it's time to settle down and vote for the adult", then NJ could be just the beginning of the Dem problems in an Obama/McCain match up.

    Sadly, we live in a country that's still riddled with racism and misogyny, sometimes in very subtle ways.  A black man running against a white woman largely cancels out those disgusting traits in the American voters.  A black man, and one new to the national scene, running against a very well known white man opens new challenges.

    I'm not saying this is a reason to shun Obama, nor am I saying that he'd lose to McCain.  But I think we must recognize that if the race is Obama vs. McCain that it could be tougher in some ways than many are expecting.  That's particularly true when the Republicans, aided by their fairly unbalanced friends at FOX and 501(c)4's and 527's, get as dirty and as racial as they think they can get away with in their attacks.

    [ Parent ]

    Talk of "Minnewisowa" has died down (none / 0) (#100)
    by Cream City on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:08:59 AM EST
    since before this primary season, when it was identified as the "Superstate" of three swing states with combined delegates that add up to match some of the big states.  But some were close states -- one of them THE closest state -- last time and so were identified as what could be a crucial area this year.

    And I'm not convinced that they are ours now -- as the combination of two caucus states and huge crossover in the third one confounds the evidence for us.  We will have to watch polling down the line, although of course, polling also is problematic this year -- and that may be so for more states that we just won't know about for a while.

    [ Parent ]

    imo. But my concerns are the states I have mentioned -FL, OH, MI and PA.

    Unlike most folks, I expect a map similar to 2004 - we ain't winning Georgia.

    If Obama can hold MI and PA - there is math that get him the win - CO, NM, IA and NV are probably wins for him - 26 EVS plus Kerry's 252 gives him 288.

    [ Parent ]

    You make a key observation (none / 0) (#146)
    by miked on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:40:58 AM EST
    Obviously the election is not all about demographics, but you make a critical observation that I think has gotten insufficient attention from many Democrats. Latinos and seniors are widely acknowledged swing constituencies that McCain has important advantages with. AA's are not - McCain will get the same 8% that Republicans always get (where are they anyway? The armed forces?).

    Latinos: McCain is nearly the least tainted of any Republican on immigration issues - although he may have to change his tune on that a bit to solidify his base support.

    Seniors: He's ONE of them!

    [ Parent ]

    This is the big overall problem for Obama (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Virginian on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:03:56 AM EST
    But you confound winning the primary in those states with winning the general.

    Wins in Wyoming, and Utah, etc...are not a winning GE map.

    The fact that Clinton or Obama may have won a particular state is in no way evidence that the other wouldn't carry the state in the general.

    And nor is it evidence that EITHER would win the state...I think one can fairly argue that Obama may have an easier road to the nomination, but a much harder road to the White House using an electoral map.

    Primary and Caucus turnout and wins or losses do not add up to a hill of beans...they don't count in Novemeber.

    Both candidates are using the Gore 2000 electoral map strategy...the big what ifs are going to be FL, OH, and PA...and there are serious doubts about Obama being able to win those 3 states (which he will have to do).

    [ Parent ]

    i think with obama's card playing (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:04:46 AM EST
    with race and gender he has set himself up to lose in november if he gets the nod. i think btd and others mentioned that earlier. now here we go again with more negative campaigning. i am sick of it. i am sick of the blogs and their ugly comments. frankly, some of them remind of the worst right wing blogs now. i see playing to the selfish, dark side of voters. the repubs did that with the tax cuts. yeah, folks, vote for us and have money in your pockets. we'll take care of those welfare cheats for you. only to turn around and give it to big corporations. duh! i saw a young blogger on here yesterday all ablaze with righeous anger about the never do well older generation's going to take his money for social security, etc. it is the older generations' fault. it is uppity women! it is that 60's 70's crowd that is the problem, not saint ronnie. now tell me that will win in november! no, it won't.

    [ Parent ]
    I think there may be some truth to this (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Virginian on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:13:24 AM EST
    i think with obama's card playing with race and gender he has set himself up to lose in november if he gets the nod.

    Mainly since it divided the base...

    [ Parent ]

    bingo! a divided base with (none / 0) (#129)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:42:20 AM EST
    their fair share of anger and frustration! that doesn't fit well with a successful november.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree that there is a path for Obama, (none / 0) (#31)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:17:14 AM EST
    but but I am not convinced he's on it.  If you look at the demographics of Florida and Michigan, should there be a do-over there, he loses.  I do not see him with a credible chance of winning Pennsylvania, either.  Losing all of these states makes it hard for me to imagine him having what it takes to win in November.  I think it is also worth mentioning the apparently wildly different results in the Texas primary and the Texas caucus.  As I understand it, those who show up to caucus must have also voted in the primary - so how is it that Hillary wins the primary by 3%, but loses the caucus big with presumably the same voters?  Are people splitting their votes, and if so, why the big swing to Obama in a caucus?  Am I missing something in the way I am thinking about this?

    Sure, I suppose that if you took the total votes cast for Democrats so far, with total votes cast for Republicans so far, you could make the argument that there's no way the Democrat loses in November, no matter which one it is.  But that's too simplistic - the general election is wide open, people will vote in it who did not vote in primaries and there is no guarantee that those who voted D in primaries will vote D in the general.

    The Republicans are not going to roll over and play dead, either.  However bad we think they are, and as bad as things have been the last two Bush terms, they still want to win, and will do whatever it takes; remember that these people still have the Justice Department and the power to screw around with voters and elections, and I have no doubt some of that will be present in this election, as well.

    My feeling all along was that Obama needed to be in the VP spot; 8 years as VP is not bad training for 8 years as president - I just don't see how that hurts him, or the party, or the country.


    [ Parent ]

    Easy.... (none / 0) (#82)
    by sweetthings on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:45:31 AM EST
    As I understand it, those who show up to caucus must have also voted in the primary - so how is it that Hillary wins the primary by 3%, but loses the caucus big with presumably the same voters?  Are people splitting their votes, and if so, why the big swing to Obama in a caucus?  Am I missing something in the way I am thinking about this?
    Possibly. It's actually very easy to see why there could be a large difference in the primary and caucus votes.

    It takes only a few minutes to vote, especially if you vote early. By contrast, it takes hours to caucus. Which means only those with both the means and the will are going to do it. Some would argue that this is undemocratic - I know BTD feels strongly about this, but there's a reason we do it - it's a vital tool in building party infrastructure, because it brings Democrats who are willing to devote extra time and resources to the party together and forces them to talk to each other. This is especially important in a state with open primaries, like Texas. This year, Republicans crossed the isle in record numbers. Rush will claim that they did so to support Hillary - others will dispute that, but while we don't know exactly who they voted for we do know that they crossed in huge numbers. However, while many Republicans are willing to cross over into Democrat land for a few minutes to vote, significantly fewer are willing to wait around for hours in a room full of liberals in order to caucus.

    Hillary won the primary, but by a pretty slim margin. If, for whatever reason, Obama's supporters are more able or more willing to hang out for 4-5 hours to caucus, then it's pretty easy to swing that number pretty strongly. But I think it's worth noting that Clinton actually did fairly well caucus-wise relative to how she's done in the past. Remember that Clinton apparently didn't know that Texas even had a caucus until a few weeks ago, and Obama's organization is a caucusing machine. For Clinton to only lose the caucus by 12 points under those conditions indicates that she has seriously upgraded her ground game.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for the info (none / 0) (#91)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:56:35 AM EST
    As I understood it, for a caucus vote to count, one had to also vote in the primary, but primary votes counted regardless of whether one showed up later to caucus, correct?

    From what I had heard, people were not so much hanging out for hours after casting their primary vote, but casting it, leaving, and then returning at the appointed caucus time.  

    Regardless of the mechanics or logistics, I think Texas stays red in the general election, so I think the win for Clinton was about bragging rights and momentum - she was outspent, out-advertised, etc. and still managed to win.

    [ Parent ]

    No Problem. (none / 0) (#106)
    by sweetthings on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:11:31 AM EST
    As I understood it, for a caucus vote to count, one had to also vote in the primary, but primary votes counted regardless of whether one showed up later to caucus, correct?

    Correct.

    From what I had heard, people were not so much hanging out for hours after casting their primary vote, but casting it, leaving, and then returning at the appointed caucus time.

    Depends on when you voted. I voted early, so obviously I didn't wait around for days to caucus. But if you were voting late on Primary day, you probably would have waited around.

    By party rules, the caucus must start at 7:15 or whenever the last person in line at the precinct has voted...whichever comes later. (voting closes at 7:00, but everyone who is in line at 7:00 must be allowed to vote, which meant that at my precinct things didn't get started until almost 8:00) Everyone who is present at that time (who can demonstrate that they voted in the primary) must be allowed to participate, but the doors close at that point, which is why both campaigns were urging their supporters to be there early.

    [ Parent ]

    go to the taylor marsh blog (none / 0) (#102)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    and view some of the videos of the caucuses in texas. they are a sad pathetic joke and an insult to what is supposed to be the right to vote and be heard. there was a woman complaining because the so called people running the caucus weren't even checking id or asking for it. the woman behind the table supposedly running this show was yelling and screaming at her to shut up. she yelled at the person running the camera to shut it off. yeah, right and the dnc is thinking about holding caucuses in florida. if they go there, they can kiss the general election off. they'll lose worse than kerry.

    [ Parent ]
    I imagine it depends on who was running things... (none / 0) (#111)
    by sweetthings on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:14:37 AM EST
    I was lucky to be at a caucus that was excellently run, despite having a 7000% increase in attendance from last time. Everything was organized, everyone was well-behaved, we had plenty of all required materials, and despite there being two obvious camps, we all got along.

    But yes, if the organizers are unprepared, things can go south in a hurry. The same is true of almost any election mechanism.

    [ Parent ]

    yup, i remember the horror in ohio in 04. (none / 0) (#128)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:39:38 AM EST
    i think that voting in the primary system is more fair and allows the older, sick, infirm to vote and not be crowded out in a caucus. also they have the whole day to vote versus the set times of a caucus.

    i know for sure that floria doesn't have the caucus system and maybe michigan too. so if they have no background or organization, the chances of a valid, successful caucus in short order isn't good.

    [ Parent ]

    Link for 12 pt margin in TX caucuses? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Cream City on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:12:33 AM EST
    As I'm not finding that on any sites, and as two-thirds have not reported even to the state party, it seems.

    [ Parent ]
    I was using CNN's election center.... (none / 0) (#112)
    by sweetthings on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:16:58 AM EST
    Here.

    And yes, these results are not final and won't be final for some time. But if you read BTD's post from last night, you'll find that these are supposed to be a 'good guess' from the Texas Democratic Party.

    Given Clinton's disadvantages going into this primary, I can't imagine she's all that displeased at this result, assuming it holds.

    [ Parent ]

    4-5 Hours to Caucus? (none / 0) (#168)
    by plf1953 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:45:12 PM EST
    Not here in Nevada.  At least not in my precinct.

    1 1/2 hours max .. and the only meaningful activity was voting ..

    After that there was a mad dash for the door ...

    Caucuses may be good for somethings, but they are not the right mechanism for picking a nominee for the GE.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama "winning" Texas (none / 0) (#116)
    by Manuel on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:23:53 AM EST
    provides the best argument for the superdelegates to ignore caucus states.  Since no one has an overwhelming pledged delegate lead, other factors should be considered like the popular vote, FL and MI, and the GE strategy.

    I've got an idea.  Let's wait for every state to vote.  At the convention, hold a first ballot with supers abstaining.  Release all the delegates from their pledges including superdelagtes.  Give each campaign an hour or so to present their case.  Hold another round of voting.  Declare a winner.

    [ Parent ]

    Someone can check this math... (none / 0) (#158)
    by cmugirl on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:36:12 PM EST
    And it's a post within a comment from taylormarsh.com, but it's an interesting mind exercise:

    ergus, that was a great post by Anglachel and brought up all the reasons why the legitimacy of Hillary's candidacy and standings should never be questioned. In fact, I would say she has more of a legitimate claim on the nomination than Obama does, as Anglachel enumerates in her post. There are 2 other reasons:

    1-She is now leading in the popular vote count. The Obamabots keep yelling that the people should be the ones to choose, not SD's. Well, it is pretty obvious who the people are choosing, if you go by vote count. If you go by DEMOCRATIC votes only, her lead is even bigger.

    2-Another thing the Obamabots keep screaming is that SD's should vote the same as their state. In other words, Kansas SD's should all vote for Obama. NY SD's should all vote for Hillary. Well, it seems as though they started screaming before doing their homework. I just read a wonderful post by Jayling over at a forum that shows very clearly that Hillary would be several hundred delegates ahead in every case if that's how the SD's were to vote. I thought it would be great to share, so here it is:

    Too often we've heard the cries of Obama supporters angrily stating that Super-Delegates should follow the wishes of the popular vote in their states. Well, that would be fine with me. In a winner-take-all (no proportional):

    As of March 5th, if Supers followed their state's wishes (w/o FL & MI):
    Clinton - 1746 Total Delegates
    Obama - 1551 Total Delegates

    2025 Delegates needed to win the nomination:
    Clinton would only need 279 more / Obama would need 474.

    -----

    As of March 5th, if Supers followed their state's wishes (with FL, w/o MI):
    Clinton - 1956 Total Delegates
    Obama - 1551 Total Delegates

    (2208 needed with both FL & MI being counted, unsure the breakdown for just one)

    -----
    As of March 5th, if Supers followed their state's wishes (with FL & MI):
    Clinton - 2112 Total Delegates
    Obama - 1551 Total Delegates

    2208 need if both FL & MI were counted:
    Clinton would need only 96 Delegates / Obama would need 657.

    http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=725

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for posting that. (none / 0) (#173)
    by tree on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:29:47 PM EST
    I was wondering about the same issue just this morning but had a hard time finding the superdelegate counts by state. It would behoove Clinton's campaign to start promoting this view.
    Trust me though, many Obama supporters have already moved the goalposts. Even though the first cry was for state's superdelegates to honor the "will" of the state's voters, lately I've noticed that the "will of the people" argument has morphed into the superdelegates-should-vote-the-same-as-the-majority-
    of-pledged-delegates argument. Said morphing is happening, of course, because its starting to look like Obama might lead the pledged delegate count, but lose on the popular vote count.

    [ Parent ]
    Doesn't it come down to a difference in strategy? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Arbitrarity on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:53:15 AM EST
    How does Hillary end up with a more legitimate claim than him?

    Greater popular vote?  

    Greater popular vote with Florida and Michigan counted?

    Greater popular vote with just Florida?

    The underlying problem with every single scenario of either candidate winning is that the other candidate is going to have legitimate claims to make as well.  

    And, more importantly, no matter who wins, the vitriol that each side has for the other is going to be damaging in the GE.  

    For al