Move On's False Petition

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:46:32 PM EST
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By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

Move On, unfortunately and disappointingly, backed by Open Left, has chose to circulate a false petition defending Nancy Pelosi's outrageous behavior. Move On falsely states that:

A group of millionaire Democratic donors are threatening to stop supporting Democrats in Congress because Nancy Pelosi said that the people, not the superdelegates, should decide the Presidential nomination.

This is false. Nancy Pelosi stood against the will of the people as expressed by the popular vote. Let's remind Move On and Open Left what Pelosi said:

Political prognosticators give Clinton more of a chance of catching, or even surpassing, Obama in the national popular vote but Pelosi argued that super delegates should follow the pledged-delegate, not the popular-vote, leader.

"But what if one candidate has won the popular vote and the other candidate has won the delegates?" asked Stephanopoulos. "But it's a delegate race," Pelosi replied. "The way the system works is that the delegates choose the nominee."

But Move On's contempt for the will of the people and the popular vote is not new, nor is it new for the Pelosi family:

Like Move On, Speaker Pelosi's daughter, Christine Pelosi, seems not to care who wins the most votes in this nomination process:

"Many of us are elected by the grassroots of the party," she said, "And I cannot imagine going home in November to those people and try to phone bank for someone who did not capture the [pledged delegate] vote... We were all galvanized by what happened to Al Gore in Florida."

Apparently Ms. Pelosi does not at ALL remember what happened to Al Gore, he won the POPULAR VOTE, and lost the vote of the "delegates" to the Electoral College. Ms. Pelosi has it exactly backwards. I for one would be dismayed if the Popular Vote winner were denied the nomination due to the undemocratic pledged delegate process - with its undemocratic caucus and apportionment processes. That would be a travesty.

I expect this type of contempt for the will of the people from Move On now. It surprises me to see Open Left embrace that same contempt.

NOTE - Comments closed.

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Move On's False Petition | 218 comments (218 topical)

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You could argue (5.00 / 3) (#1)
by andgarden on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:51:22 PM EST

that their encouraging stupidity increases their own power.

I do not know (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:00:25 PM EST

what their goal is. I know they are spreading a falsehood.

[ Parent ]

Their goal (5.00 / 2) (#19)
by Warren Terrer on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:03:06 PM EST

is to give an assist to Obama by encouraging Pelosi to keep campaigning for him as she's been doing up till now.

[ Parent ]

: Well, so much for the donors (5.00 / 2) (#111)
by blogtopus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:49:08 PM EST

Who would have thought a year ago that the DNC would be in such a position to completely fall apart?
Way to go Dean, Pelosi, Brazille, et al. With an assist from the brain-dead 'left' bloggers Dkos, TPM etc.
WHAT. A. FIASCO.
Rove must be rolling on his back, laughing his butt off.

[ Parent ]

Well, I'm just looking at a pattern (none / 0) (#16)
by andgarden on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:02:44 PM EST

of behavior. Some of it off topic, of course.

[ Parent ]

Staying Alive (none / 0) (#5)
by squeaky on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:55:44 PM EST

Seems to be their main function at this point. This new action is going to cost $$$.....

[ Parent ]

I agree (5.00 / 2) (#74)
by Dave B on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:33:02 PM EST

This will cost them $$$. I have unsubscribed from DFA and from Move On. I started giving to Move On back in the 90's. Apparently they have calculated that it will bring them more money to hitch themselves to the Obama gravy train.

[ Parent ]

: I'm done with them (5.00 / 2) (#141)
by thereyougo on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:02:45 PM EST

have been since they endorsed Obama.
sometimes I think they're DINOs
These movements have lost their appeal and have become fringe groups.
Hillary will get more of my $$

[ Parent ]
: I haven't (5.00 / 1) (#176)
by 0 politico on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:24:07 PM EST

donated to MoveOn this election. Now, I am sure I won't.

[ Parent ]

Well, it looks like Obama is winning the PR (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by MarkL on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:51:54 PM EST

battle and the nomination, but losing the election in the process. Between writing off MI and FL, and continuing to make nasty remarks about Hillary (kneecapping---he's beens saying that since Dec., btw)---I can't see him getting support of enough Democrats in Nov. Hillary, of course, is being a good soldier and telling people to vote for the nominee. McCain's popularity among Democrats and Obama's lack of experience are going to make it extremely difficult for him to win.

Dang that Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#63)
by waldenpond on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:27:56 PM EST

Clinton was asked by a questioner in the audience here what she would tell frustrated Democrats who might consider voting for McCain in the general election out of spite.

"Please think through this decision," Clinton said, laughing and emphasizing the word "please."

"It is not a wise decision for yourself or your country."

The crowd applauded loudly.

A Gallup poll released this week indicated that 28 percent of Clinton's supporters would back McCain should the New York senator lose her quest for the Democratic nomination.

That compares to the 19 percent of Obama supporters who say they will favor McCain should Clinton be the party's nominee.

"First of all, every time you have a vigorous contest like we are having in this primary election people get intense," she continued. "You know, Sen. Obama has intense support. I have intense support."

Clinton stressed that there are "significant" differences between her and Obama, but said "those differences pale to the differences between us and Sen. McCain."

"I intend to do everything I can to make sure we have a unified Democratic party," she said. "When this contest is over and we have a nominee, we're going to close ranks, we're going to be united."

Despite Pelosi et al.. she just keeps plugging on. Let everyone vote and then unify. Gasp.

[ Parent ]

Hillary is right here (none / 0) (#67)
by CST on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:29:25 PM EST

I just hope people take her advice.

[ Parent ]

: Many didn't hear that (none / 0) (#90)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:39:21 PM EST

all they heard was something evil coming out of her mouth. OR she must be lying because her main goal is to destroy the party . . .

[ Parent ]
: Most Party Dems will... (none / 0) (#102)
by oldpro on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:43:43 PM EST

but not all.
But Independent and Republican voters who prefer Hillary as their first choice? Probably not after this campaign.
And that's the big difference I see in the percentages who won't back Hillary vs. the percentages who won't back Obama in the general.

[ Parent ]

Sadly this race has exposed some of (5.00 / 2) (#7)
by TalkRight on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:56:20 PM EST

the people's and organization's hypocrisies that we at not so very distant past never expected ... the very same principles of democracy being crushed by them that we were so fondly cherishing and speaking for !!

Why.. For what.. have we gone so shortsighted..!!

Were you around for the Iraq debate? (5.00 / 2) (#8)
by andgarden on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:57:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Just you and me it seems (none / 0) (#11)
by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 04:59:47 PM EST

After that sorry show (none / 0) (#14)
by andgarden on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:01:49 PM EST

nothing surprises me from these people anymore.

[ Parent ]

Nor me (none / 0) (#20)
by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:03:13 PM EST

I am surprised by Open Left I must say. Live and learn.

[ Parent ]

I am not..... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by ACitizen on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:21:35 PM EST

........Bowers will tie himself in knots to support Obama. Many of his posts on this subject are just unreadable as they make no sense....

By the way how's that GE thing workin'?

Maybe not so much....

Don't bother telling me what a tool Jerome is. He is just about the only original 'Big Man' on the blogs who has stayed on track as to what progressives should be doing.

Electing progressives.

Not center right wannabes.

[ Parent ]

Not me (5.00 / 1) (#83)
by TheRealFrank on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:35:53 PM EST

Bowers was raising money for an anti-Hillary 527 last fall.. for him, this is par for the course.

[ Parent ]

I think it's a combination (none / 0) (#26)
by andgarden on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:05:01 PM EST

of stupidity and greed. I'll let others decide which belongs to which, and in what combination.

[ Parent ]

Open left funny numbers... (none / 0) (#29)
by Stellaaa on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:06:46 PM EST

In the 2003-2004 cycle, MoveOn/org members contributed $180,000,000 in itemized, hard-money donations to Democratic federal campaigns. T.

Do you believe this?

[ Parent ]

: Televangelists raise lots of money too (5.00 / 1) (#32)
by andgarden on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:07:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
: Sure (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:10:14 PM EST

If you count everyone on their lists, I am on their list, then it seems likely.
That has nothing to do with Move On of course.

[ Parent ]

Can you believe (5.00 / 2) (#17)
by Steve M on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:02:55 PM EST

what Mike Lux wrote at OpenLeft?

Matt noted yesterday a letter that 20 major donors and raisers to Hillary and other Democratic Party causes sent to Pelosi, upbraiding her for saying that voters ought to actually determine the election. Now, I don't think there is anything wrong with donors stating their opinion about this issue, and I don't blame them for doing it. I'm sure that the Clinton campaign asked them to send the letter, and they are loyal partisans for Hillary, so they did what they were asked to do.

Let's put aside the unsupported allegation that the evil Clinton campaign must have been behind this. Can you seriously believe he characterized Pelosi's position - "ignore the popular vote in favor of the pledged delegate lead" - as the "voters ought to actually determine the election" position? That is the sort of spin that passes without comment in the reality-based community these days.

: It's intentional (5.00 / 2) (#22)
by andgarden on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:03:53 PM EST

People don't vote as far as they're concerned--delegates do.

[ Parent ]
: In comments (5.00 / 2) (#25)
by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:04:49 PM EST

I will call it what it is - a lie.
It is precisely why I wrote this post. And will call out all blogs that spread this lie. As long as I am permitted.

[ Parent ]
: Surely the Clinton campaign encouraged (none / 0) (#37)
by oculus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:14:18 PM EST

a letter to Pelosi signed by Robert Johnson. <snk.>

[ Parent ]

You have to ask? (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by Steve M on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:05:09 PM EST

Anyone who thinks "Tonya Harding strategy" is a reasonable thing to say is obviously not credible.

I removed myself... (5.00 / 2) (#36)
by Alvord on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:10:34 PM EST

... from the Move On mailing list when they endorsed Barack Obama. They should have stayed neutral but, like Nancy Pelosi, they decided to anger half of the Democratic party. No more contributions or other support from me.

I removed myself too because (5.00 / 2) (#43)
by apolitiko on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:18:24 PM EST

...I always thought they were a more issues-based, support the nominee kind of group (like they did with Kerry). I never appreciated their endorsement.

[ Parent ]

ditto (5.00 / 2) (#55)
by Josey on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:24:59 PM EST

I removed myself from their list early last summer for their campaign against an anti-environmental Senate coal bill because they omitted a Dem presidential candidate, Obama, was a co-sponsor.
Obama supporters were all thrilled when Obama took his name off the bill, ignoring the fact he had to be told that coal to liquid was detrimental.

[ Parent ]

: Obama supported coal to liquids (CTL)... (5.00 / 2) (#181)
by Alvord on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:26:16 PM EST

... until he started receiving flack about it, nevermind that CTL would aggravate the global warming problem. What was particularly disturbing was that at the same time he was co-sponsoring a bill promoting CTL, he gave a speech about energy and climate change, saying:

For decades, we've been warned by legions of scientists and mountains of evidence that this was coming - that we couldn't just keep burning fossil fuels and contribute to the changing atmosphere without consequence. And yet, for decades, far too many have ignored the warnings, either dismissing the science as a hoax or believing that it was the concern of enviros looking to save polar bears and rainforests.
(...)
The issue of climate change is one that we ignore at our own peril.
Obama gave a good speech but when it came to a choice between the environment and a local special interest, he supported the Illinois coal industry over protecting the environment, at least until it became so controversial he had to back down.

[ Parent ]
: I removed myself also (5.00 / 1) (#198)
by MichaelGale on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:53:34 PM EST

I had been with MoveOn since the Clinton Censure campaign.
I removed myself when they had the vote to raise money for "one" candidate this year.

[ Parent ]

I removed myself as well (5.00 / 1) (#217)
by mexboy on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:51:23 PM EST

I lost respect for... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
by apolitiko on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:16:23 PM EST

...Open Left a long time ago. Though they used to be some of my favorite bloggers out there. Glad my dismissal wasn't in vain.

: Is there a connection between Open (none / 0) (#110)
by oculus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:48:30 PM EST

Left and MoveOn?

[ Parent ]

you know (5.00 / 4) (#41)
by Turkana on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:17:31 PM EST

the truth does not matter. the corporate media and the shrillosphere- the great convergence- will vilify clinton for anything. they will destroy her. and then they will say she's so nasty for going negative on obama.

Today its Reuters saying its over (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by oculus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:21:41 PM EST

and she should drop out. Really discouraging. Her poll numbers went down after The Speech and Obama's stayed the same. Why?

[ Parent ]

because the great convergence agreed (5.00 / 5) (#66)
by Turkana on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:29:24 PM EST

that the speech made the difference. and then the great convergence moved on to bleating endlessly about her having not been truthful about tuzla. because she's pathologically dishonest, and he never tells a lie. or something.

if lee atwater were around, he'd be quite impressed with the supposed democrats who have so perfectly followed his model. destroying the clintons is not just politics, it's blood sport.

[ Parent ]

Could be the smears coming out of Camp O (5.00 / 2) (#76)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:33:51 PM EST

they have been smearing her since the 4th pretty hard. And Bosnia didn't help.

[ Parent ]

: Bosnia to normal people is not (5.00 / 1) (#147)
by thereyougo on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:05:56 PM EST

important. There is something else going on.
being driven by the blogs.
in the real world, things like this don't matter.
I'm sick of it all

[ Parent ]

media's constant drumbeat... (5.00 / 1) (#126)
by Josey on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:57:42 PM EST

the Clintons are liars and can't be trusted.
Interesting that when Obama gives the media oppo research on Hillary - it's OK. But when in reverse - "Hillary will do anything to win!"

Most likely, after Obama is the nominee, Fox News will question his initial stance a year ago that he "barely knew Rezko" and his judgment seeking personal financial assistance from a long time donor while under federal investigation...
and seeking a $1M earmark for his wife's employer...
and his "Dems for a day" ploy...

[ Parent ]

: See Rove..... (5.00 / 1) (#183)
by waldenpond on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:30:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Did U see The U TUBE Mix Today ? (none / 0) (#69)
by TearDownThisWall on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:30:37 PM EST

Showing Hillary shooting terrorists while bombs are going off all around her?
This clip typlifies what has happened-

One could attribute it to the forces of culture, politcs, media elites...combined with Hillary's reputation (fair/ un fair).

Or...more than likely, it's just "time"....it's Time for the next generation to take over.

No matter what....I belive she is in the "final throes"

[ Parent ]

: "It's just time..." (5.00 / 2) (#191)
by oldpro on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:36:15 PM EST

I've ben pondering that too and am nearly ready to turn it all over to 'them.'
But if I do, they get it all...they have to take over the work as well making and interpolating the roolz. I don't vote, raise the money, GOTV, consult with would-be candidates, contribute time or $$$, attend functions or fundraisers, yadda, yadda, yadda.
They want me out...I'm out.
Good luck with picking up the pieces when people like me walk away from a lifetime investment now being trashed by fools and liars.

[ Parent ]

And anyone who votes for Obama in November (2.00 / 4) (#46)
by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:19:28 PM EST

Is rewarding them for doing that.

[ Parent ]

there's no (5.00 / 2) (#51)
by Turkana on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:21:56 PM EST

realistic alternative.

[ Parent ]

That's their trump card (5.00 / 2) (#58)
by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:26:07 PM EST

We can do whatever we want cause folks will have no choice in November.

Sorry. I have a choice.

I would choose not to reward what I have seen.

[ Parent ]

if you have any interest in the supreme court (5.00 / 2) (#68)
by Turkana on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:30:22 PM EST

or any interest in the well-being of the iraqis and our combat troops, you might want to rethink that.

[ Parent ]

unless you care about longer term democracy (5.00 / 3) (#85)
by DandyTIger on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:36:33 PM EST

then you may indeed want to slap the dems down for this horrific example of the worst of politics. I won't be blackmailed about the SCOTUS and the rest as the reason I should participate in the end of democracy. If there is no democracy, I simply can't rely on the fact that Obama will act like a democrat w.r.t these matters.

[ Parent ]

i'm no fan of obama (none / 0) (#93)
by Turkana on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:40:23 PM EST

but to allow a mccain presidency would be disastrous, on every level.

[ Parent ]

No McCain (5.00 / 1) (#154)
by BDB on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:10:29 PM EST

Here's where I am, not that it should matter to anyone else: if Obama is the nominee and I'm in a state that matters, I will vote for Obama (although it's really a vote to stop McCain). I cannot help McCain become president.

If I'm in a state that doesn't matter, I reserve my right, depending on what happens between now and the GE, to vote for a third party candidate as a protest against kind of campaign, including the embrace of sexist language and sterotypes, waged by Obama and his supporters (I would never vote for McCain). I have a moral duty to stop McCain from becoming president, I have no moral duty to run up Obama's numbers.

And if Obama is the nominee, I'll devote my time and money to candidates who don't use sexist memes and rightwing smears against other democrats. I am grateful to Obama, the media, and the Big Boy Bloggers for showing me exactly what kind of society I live in and making me realize it was so much worse than I thought it was. I intend to spend a lot of time and money working for liberal women candidates for, hopefully, the rest of my life. The best way to end sexism is to simply use our numbers to take over the system. Chris Matthews wouldn't say what he says if we had 55 women in the United States Senate. And, recognizing, it's not just winning elective office that matters, I'm giving female bloggers more hits and more money than I used to and I plan to continue that as well (and I will continue to reward and support the too few male voices who have called the sexism what it is, including BTD, lambert, and Jerome Armstrong). Regardless of the outcome, this election has already been the most important in my life.

[ Parent ]

I agree (none / 0) (#165)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:18:19 PM EST

That was my intent when I had to weigh voting for Obama. I had decided to vote for him but actively support increasing Dems and women in congress and also state. But as time has gone on, I'm writing in Clinton unless Obama starts tanking in NY (stranger things have happened).

I have never been so offended by a political campaign. The hits just keep on coming . . .

[ Parent ]

Well-put. Now, more than ever -- (none / 0) (#196)
by Cream City on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:50:12 PM EST

it's EMILY's List for me, as well as direct donations to specific candidates, men as well as women, if they "get it."

The DNC, Move On, etc., don't get it. So they don't get my money. Let them scare up enough from the young 'uns, or at least what's left after they stop at Starbucks.

[ Parent ]

: The One Benefit of Being, Ahem, Older (none / 0) (#218)
by BDB on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 08:10:05 PM EST

Is that I also have more money.

[ Parent ]

I think a lot... (none / 0) (#192)
by Alvord on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:40:24 PM EST

... of people are imposing their own value system on the blank slate that is Barack Obama and assuming he generally agrees with them. The only thing we really know about Obama is that he is a talented, ambitious and opportunistic.

His values have never been put to a real test. Personally I will not automatically commit to vote for Obama if he is the nominee. I am going to keep my options open.

[ Parent ]

Case in point (none / 0) (#97)
by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:42:27 PM EST

Just cause Obama's a Dem and McCain's a Republican, that doesn't guarantee one will improve the lives of Americans any more or less than the other.

Case in point: Carter.

I don't want to make the case that the lives of soldiers would be better protected by McCain, but I can do that.

[ Parent ]

you're wrong (5.00 / 1) (#114)
by Turkana on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:50:37 PM EST

unless you think the lives of our soldiers are improved by being in the middle of a civil war.

[ Parent ]

: I won't even be around (none / 0) (#132)
by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:59:48 PM EST

For anyone to tell me I'm wrong.

[ Parent ]

Carter (5.00 / 1) (#123)
by rilkefan on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:55:31 PM EST

got hit by the oil crisis and the damn-the-fing-hippies-and-bussing reaction. A lot of his efforts look visionary now. And the mideast and other places would be in worse shape now if not for him.

[ Parent ]

: He botched (none / 0) (#138)
by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:00:52 PM EST

A hostage crisis.
Guess who managed that for him?

[ Parent ]

If you think McCain is not scary (none / 0) (#203)
by fuzzyone on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:57:07 PM EST

check this out

[ Parent ]

pffft (none / 0) (#60)
by andgarden on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:27:34 PM EST

: Your disapproval (none / 0) (#84)
by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:36:27 PM EST

Dismissing my opinion on this only solidifies the decision.

[ Parent ]

I'll vote for Obama if he is the nominee (none / 0) (#112)
by jes on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:50:07 PM EST

because of the 3 SCOTUS, but I think that is it. I'm off the rolls after that.

[ Parent ]

There is a defacto alternative: (5.00 / 1) (#92)
by Pacific John on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:40:10 PM EST

Casual voters like Hispanics and low income whites will stay home because they are tired of being abused and called racists. Enough FL and MI voters will stay home that their states go red because they didn't get treated with human dignity. And there is nothing we can do about it. We can't re-wind the Hope campaign.

Let me share an anecdote, replicated many times in counties like Bexar and along the Rio Grande.

In a precinct convention (caucus) in a majority Hispanic HRC neighborhood, out of state BHO organizers seized control of the convention, ordered the elderly Hispanic woman who should have been elected chair into a corner across the room, did a secret delegate calculation, and phoned in more BHO delegates than the precinct was allowed.

This did not instill civic pride or faith on Democracy. It REALLY did not leave a reserve of goodwill toward Sen. Obama.

And the matter is, the BHO campaign continues to treat Hispanics like aliens from another planet, even when, most of the time, it is within the law. Talk about a low bar.

Why would people who went through this to vote Dem if Hillary isn't on the ticket?

There may be nothing either of us can do to fix this.

[ Parent ]

i agree (5.00 / 2) (#98)
by Turkana on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:42:54 PM EST

that some will see it that way, and it's part of the damage being done by both obama and his supporters. but we have to encourage people to see the big picture.

[ Parent ]

Hillary Did That Today (5.00 / 3) (#125)
by BDB on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:57:41 PM EST

I have yet to see Obama say anything like this, but maybe I missed it among all the Hillary Sux talking points -

Clinton was asked by a questioner in the audience here what she would tell frustrated Democrats who might consider voting for McCain in the general election out of spite.
"Please think through this decision," Clinton said, laughing and emphasizing the word "please."
"It is not a wise decision for yourself or your country."
The crowd applauded loudly. [...]
"First of all, every time you have a vigorous contest like we are having in this primary election people get intense," she continued. "You know, Sen. Obama has intense support. I have intense support."
Clinton stressed that there are "significant" differences between her and Obama, but said "those differences pale to the differences between us and Sen. McCain."
"I intend to do everything I can to make sure we have a unified Democratic party," she said. "When this contest is over and we have a nominee, we're going to close ranks, we're going to be united."

From MyDD. For someone trying to destroy the party, she sure has a funny way of going about it. Every time she's been asked this question - since last Fall - she has said the same thing. If only the same could be said for Obama (and even Edwards). No one has been more adamant about closing ranks around the nominee than Hillary Clinton, that's the good side of being one of those polarizing partisans.

[ Parent ]

: That's what she says (none / 0) (#180)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:25:30 PM EST

What she does in her campaign--running down Obama and praising McCain--shows another agenda.

[ Parent ]

The big picture (5.00 / 1) (#164)
by oldpro on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:16:44 PM EST

is beginning to look like Dorian Gray.

[ Parent ]

Many seniors will not be fooled by (none / 0) (#144)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:03:50 PM EST

Obama. And in my 'hood, I believe his dear pastor also offended quite a few (Brooklyn Italians)

They will relate better to McCain, I would think. I should visit the Sr Centers and Deli's to see what folks are thinking. Srs may not be too concerned when it gets to some of the long term issues like judges. It's also a pretty Catholic 'hood too. Heck, he may not be able to get some of the 'middle-aged' vote here either . . .

[ Parent ]

Please explain this (none / 0) (#187)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:33:10 PM EST

You say:

You have recounted an incident during a caucus as emblematic of how Obama campaign workers mistreat Latinos....

Aside from some rough goings-on in caucuses--and the accusations go both ways--what on earth has Obama done to alienate the Latino vote? I see no evidence of that in the head-to-head polling against McCain. Every such poll shows Obama pulling 2/3 of the Latino vote.

Many have been and are likley still to be offended by the other's campaign partisans....But the much bigger picture suggests Obama will do fine among Latinos.

[ Parent ]

How much of his "the speech" (none / 0) (#200)
by Cream City on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:54:18 PM EST

talk about them? What did it offer them?

(For that matter, what specific actions did it offer -- or ask -- of anyone? Uh huh. Contrast that with MLK speeches or Bill Clinton speeches on race.)

[ Parent ]

: Nitpicking the speech (none / 0) (#205)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:02:00 PM EST

Wright was not Latino....No need to stir the pot even more in one speech....
Obama is cool on Latino issues....
Hillary's pollster in Nevada is the one who started this horrid and false idea that Latinos would not vote for an African American.....The truth is that Latinos were voting for Hillary, not against Obama....Why not celebrate that?
Latinos (in general) feel as if they know her better....It is name ID and the feeling of having a pre-existing relationship....plus good economic times from the 90s...

[ Parent ]

Or wants a decent president (none / 0) (#52)
by CST on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:22:51 PM EST

Who will vote NO on torture
Who will vote YES on Health Care Reform
Who will vote No on Bush's tax cuts
Who will vote to END the war

Some of us will vote because of the issues at stake for our country. Media doesn't matter nearly as much as policy.

[ Parent ]

are you sure that's how he will vote? (5.00 / 2) (#88)
by DandyTIger on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:38:17 PM EST

what do you have to go by, his words? his honoring of the democratic process? his respect of the democratic party and it's voters?

[ Parent ]

I don't trust him on Judges (5.00 / 2) (#121)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:54:31 PM EST

for starters, and that's a problem for me.

Health Care Reform: 50/50 he has the ability to do much that would really benefit us.

Troops out of Iraq: another toss up, by his own admission.

Trade: again toss up by his own actions, but I would say if anything happens on it, I won't like it.

Bush Tax cuts and Torture look a bit better for him as far as I can see.

Economy is another iffy area.

Gender issues: I give a no confidence vote.

[ Parent ]

Gender issues? (none / 0) (#167)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:18:53 PM EST

I have heard this criticism of Obama before....

I understand the reaction to a couple of his comments using phrases that offended....but aside from that what is it on "gender" issues that separates Obama from Hillary?

[ Parent ]

He tends to forget about them. (5.00 / 2) (#177)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:24:36 PM EST

Clinton and Edwards both noticed it in the debates.

He rarely utters a word about them. He leaves the impression that all is well except that pesky glass ceiling.

[ Parent ]

Such as? (none / 0) (#194)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:44:47 PM EST

What issues are of concern....

[ Parent ]

Race, Religion, Region (5.00 / 1) (#207)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:06:23 PM EST

that's what he talks about. Notice anything missing?

[ Parent ]

So, he should spruce up (none / 0) (#211)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:12:43 PM EST

his rhetoric to include gender issues?

I am sure that can be done....

[ Parent ]

: Nope. Too late. (5.00 / 1) (#212)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:15:57 PM EST

He's running against a woman and can't figure out he should mention gender on occasion?!
Both his actions and words leave me doubtful in this area. A pander move won't do it.

[ Parent ]

Difference (5.00 / 1) (#189)
by waldenpond on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:33:52 PM EST

His support of Roberts and his vote for Griffith.

[ Parent ]

: Huh? He voted against Roberts confirmation n/t (5.00 / 1) (#201)
by fuzzyone on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:55:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]

For one, Obama was going to vote (none / 0) (#202)
by Cream City on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:56:02 PM EST

for Roberts for Supreme Court, until his staff had to educate him. For that and other causes for concern, there have been discussions on this site and many others such as Illinois NOW.

[ Parent ]

Well, what are you going to do (none / 0) (#206)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:06:04 PM EST

about Feingold?....He got schmoozed by his former classmate....

[ Parent ]

: What I did about Feingold, since (none / 0) (#224)
by Cream City on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:11:06 AM EST

he's my senator, and one to whom I had donated, is that I wrote him that I no longer would do so.
What have you done?

[ Parent ]

Powers (none / 0) (#209)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:10:21 PM EST

I was disappointed he canned her. She is really smart and losing a high level female adviser--not good.

Perhaps after she is done serving time in Purgatory she can come back....Bill said it would be okay..."Monster" does not reveal a gender bias....

[ Parent ]

I entirely disagree with you on this (none / 0) (#225)
by Cream City on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:11:52 AM EST

and now know exactly how to see everything you say.

[ Parent ]

: I doubt that (none / 0) (#226)
by MKS on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 11:29:44 AM EST

But glad you think you have me reduced to a formula....

[ Parent ]

Well, jeez...don't go into sales (none / 0) (#171)
by oldpro on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:21:50 PM EST

for a living.

You'll starve...

[ Parent ]

: Unless I'm selling something I believe in ;) (5.00 / 1) (#182)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:27:01 PM EST

Thankfully I have other talents, lol!~
But I can do a good job 'selling' that which I believe in or feel is important. Obama's not on the 'list'.

[ Parent ]

This is where the hope part kicks in. (none / 0) (#103)
by oculus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:43:44 PM EST

We know where McCain stands on SCOTUS appointments.

[ Parent ]

: ah, now I get it. That's what he means :-) (n/t) (5.00 / 1) (#107)
by DandyTIger on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:46:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
: of course the hope could go terribly wrong (none / 0) (#122)
by DandyTIger on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:55:26 PM EST

as in this alternate ending to the wizard of oz (no place like home indeed).

[ Parent ]

Clinton Should Go Scorched Earth... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by Exeter on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:25:09 PM EST

...and for the sake of the party and for getting a win this November, throw her delegates behind Al Gore and run as his VP. That would blow up the Obama cult, Pelosi, and MoveOn in one fell swoop.

Hillary's not going scorched (none / 0) (#71)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:31:27 PM EST

earth already?

I think Carville already got the memo...

[ Parent ]

Obama scoirched the Earth (5.00 / 3) (#75)
by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:33:21 PM EST

in FL and MI.

[ Parent ]

However, Hillary didn't (none / 0) (#146)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:04:46 PM EST

really run to the front of the line in trying to get a re-vote in Florida. That tainted her ability to get one in Mich.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0) (#148)
by oculus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:06:17 PM EST

Hillary supporters in Florida (none / 0) (#160)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:14:25 PM EST

opposed a re-vote. Debbie Wasserman Schultz and others.

[ Parent ]

Not seeing a connection to (none / 0) (#168)
by oculus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:19:04 PM EST

MI revote, however. Re MI, Obama sd. he would do whatever the DNC sd. was o.k., but he didn't.

[ Parent ]

: A re-vote in Mich (none / 0) (#199)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:53:53 PM EST

but not Florida?....That's slicing it pretty thin and seems unprincipled.
Moreover, re-votes, as attractive as they might seem in this exigency, are really a bad precedent....Better to have just one vote and everyone understand that you only get one shot at a fair election--to incentivize people to get it right the first time....

[ Parent ]

Maybe Here (none / 0) (#166)
by squeaky on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:18:41 PM EST

Down memory lane.

[ Parent ]

No she really isn't (5.00 / 1) (#81)
by Marvin42 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:35:43 PM EST

Its just what Obama campaign and his followers want everyone to believe.

[ Parent ]

Carville isn't even warmed up yet. (none / 0) (#80)
by oculus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:35:33 PM EST

The problem is (none / 0) (#142)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:02:58 PM EST

Carville has lost credibility--especially with the Superdelegates.

[ Parent ]

He's a bloviator. (none / 0) (#152)
by oculus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:08:04 PM EST

: True but that (none / 0) (#161)
by MKS on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:15:38 PM EST

bloviating matters....Mucho uncool, so is reported the superdelegates feel.

[ Parent ]

man ! I'll 2nd that! :-) (none / 0) (#155)
by thereyougo on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:12:18 PM EST

scorched earth indeed.

[ Parent ]

This might be the perfect time to start a third (5.00 / 2) (#79)
by athyrio on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:34:50 PM EST

party, something that has been needed for eons...with so many disgruntled Democrats why not?

: Well, since Obama is essentially running (5.00 / 2) (#101)
by nycstray on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:43:25 PM EST

under the Unity Party banner, how about the Blue Party as a third party?
Dean & Co can have the Dem Party as far as I'm concerned.

[ Parent ]

Obama (5.00 / 1) (#87)
by confloyd on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:37:42 PM EST

No, absolutely no way will I as an American citizen living in Texas vote for a man that knowing fixed all caucas's. This is not what a democracy does. A democracy counts all votes. I shall vote for Mccain to absolutely do as much damage to Obama and his coharts as possible. This man should not be the President of the U.S.

Not cool. (none / 0) (#104)
by Faust on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:44:27 PM EST

Voting McCain is crazy talk in my opinion. There is no way that Obama can do more damage to the country than voting for McCain.

[ Parent ]

: Depends on where you live (5.00 / 1) (#134)
by stillife on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:00:07 PM EST

Those of us who live in solidly red or blue states can perhaps afford to make a protest vote if we're so inclined.

[ Parent ]

In case you are wondering (5.00 / 2) (#91)
by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:39:58 PM EST

I am mightily pissed about this. I have detested Move On for a while now, since they embraced the Iraq capitulation.

: yea, we noticed. :-) (n/t) (none / 0) (#96)
by DandyTIger on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:42:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Why (5.00 / 1) (#108)
by seeeteee on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:46:50 PM EST

Why do you guys dislike Obama so much? If Hillary had the lead in delegates would you be saying that Obama so stay in until the convention?

: Not hate (5.00 / 1) (#116)
by Step Beyond on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:51:34 PM EST

Yes. If their