Friday Open Thread

I hear some people have the day off today. Not me, I'm headed to court. Here's an open thread for you. What's on your minds?

< Bill Richardson to Endorse Obama | Can Clinton Win The Popular Vote? >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    Is that a jelly filled peep? (5.00 / 0) (#1)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:34:37 AM EST

    I thought that was supposed (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:38:31 AM EST
    to be a crime scene?

    It is! (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:40:20 AM EST
    A crime that there is no such thing as a jelly filled peep...

    Or... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:41:58 AM EST
    maybe its not the kind of neighborhood that is safe for jelly filled peeps...mama's keep your jelly filled peeps in at night lest this happens to them

    Peeps gone bad. (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:40:42 AM EST
    Bad peeps, Bad peeps, (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by scribe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:58:27 AM EST
    whatcha gonna do?

    Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

    How anyone could be that cruel to a poor, defenseless peep is just beyond me....


    Planned for the CBS Schedule (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by The Maven on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:44:38 AM EST
    Coming this fall, it's CSI: Peeps!

    Haven't you seen the promos they've been running during college hoops?


    Which peep is the perp peep? (nt) (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:03:14 AM EST
    Dems? (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Athena on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:06:39 AM EST
    I thought it was a bunch of superdelegates in the back room, deciding which candidate gets eliminated.

    It was suicide (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:15:05 AM EST
    He was a chicken peep stuck in a bunny peep's body...and the world just didn't understand...

    Yellow dog peeps... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:25:55 AM EST
    whoever they are...

    did y'all know (none / 0) (#89)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:27:44 AM EST
    that even acid cannot eat through peep eyes?

    Think about all those eyes just sitting in your stomach...looking.



    That's serious torture of peeps there (none / 0) (#106)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:35:00 AM EST
    in those pictures.  Yikes.  Kinda kills the holiday spirit. . . .

    Ah... (none / 0) (#122)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:41:49 AM EST
    I thought the same, and posted to slow...see the time stamp below

    sad (none / 0) (#115)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:15 AM EST
    could never get the peep or Richardson charm, he sort of reminds me of a peep...soft...with no flavor.  Never got the hype, was I missing something?

    I bet Bush (none / 0) (#120)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:41:01 AM EST
    authorized those interrogation "tactics" - liquid nitrogen boarding - boiling water - cigarette burns...has Cheney's fingerprints all over it!

    We've found the killer (none / 0) (#110)
    by tree on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:36:34 AM EST
    They make jelly-filled peeps? (none / 0) (#101)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:32:34 AM EST
    I need to get me some of those.  I'm only familar with the standard, totally scrumptious, variety.

    Elvis Costello (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by white n az on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:34:50 AM EST
    What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?

    Is there forensic evidence? (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by 0 politico on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:40:12 AM EST
    Or, should we just round up Elmer Fudd?

    No need (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:45:40 AM EST
    I have found the offending party, here.

    I think (5.00 / 0) (#17)
    by white n az on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:53:16 AM EST
    it was the woman from 'Roger and Me'

    Yeah, one of those bunnies (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by NJDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:41:56 AM EST
    got knocked off, and the others have the Mr. Bill "oh no" look :)

    I think the guilty one is the one (none / 0) (#30)
    by scribe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:02:35 AM EST
    on the left in the picture.

    It has the same "who, me?" look my dog gets when she counter-surfs, steals a loaf of bread and eats it, leaves the wrapper and crumbs in her bed and then acts like nothing - nothing! - happened.


    And the evidence (none / 0) (#73)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:53 AM EST
    goes on for days....

    Yup. (none / 0) (#80)
    by scribe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:24:34 AM EST
    But by then it is far too late.

    It's not race, its sex (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Sunshine on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:42:28 AM EST
    I know Obama grandmother crosses the street and clutches her purse when she see's two black men approaching, but I bet she does the same thing when she see's two white men approaching...  I know I am very aware of when a man is walking behind me even when I don't see him and don't know what color he is....  

    Honey, I'm approaching the phase in my life... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:48:28 AM EST
    ...when I'm just thankful I can still hear the footsteps!

    Yup (none / 0) (#15)
    by Grey on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:51:19 AM EST
    That's what I was saying yesterday, that in the few occasions when I even consider crossing the street or changing direction when I see a bunch of men idling about, it's because I'm a woman.  I sometimes have to consider things, as a woman, that men often don't often have to; that's my reality, too, and I wish Sen. Obama would at least acknowledge that.  

    When I was in my 20s I was a toughie... (none / 0) (#23)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:58:44 AM EST
    ...those were different days of course, but my friends and I were the type of women that answered the catcalls with smack talk. But when I see the abuse that young women take on the street, the level of sexual familiarity that some males seem to think is their right to express to any female they find attractive, it literally sickens me on their behalf and makes me worry that the so-called sexual revolution has just made women more vulnerable. I remember walking around with my daughter when she was just 11 years old at a street fair and she was being hit on by a group young men, young but grown. I yelled at them "for the love of god she's only 11 years old." Alas all that I accomplished was that they then turned their attention to mocking me and my daughter was embarrassed.

    Big sigh. I feel so old all of a sudden.


    When I was in my 20's (none / 0) (#41)
    by stillife on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:07:31 AM EST
    and got hooted at by construction workers, I used to give them the finger.  I was ranting about it one time to a gay male friend and he couldn't understand because he said he'd love the attention!  

    Now I'm too old for all that and it's my daughter's turn.  She pretends to talk on her cellphone when she's walking down the street b/c it's easier to ignore the jerks who try to hit on her.  

    I'm not particularly intimidated by teenage guys, probably b/c I have a 22 year old son and a lot of those baggy-pantsed characters look like he and his friends did a few years ago.  


    I had a similar experience (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:14 AM EST
    while traveling. I was stopped for lunch, and since the scenery was great I was out walking around the restaurant with a camera. A group of men were doing construction on an overpass right there and they sounded off on cue. One of them exposed himself and said, "Hey, honey, take a picture of this!!" I pointed my camera at him, and then lowered it and hollered back "Sorry, it's a zoom lens, not a microscope!!" His friends almost fell off the bridge laughing. He zipped up and disappeared behind some blocks. I bet that's the last time he did that. Teeheehee.

    you want to have a weird conversation (none / 0) (#94)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:30:39 AM EST
    at dinner: ask all your women friends how many of them have been flashed by men.  This happened at a dinner party the other night and all nine of the women present, myself included, had been flashed at some point in their lives.  Six of us had been groped (or almost groped in my case, because I yelled like a banshee) on planes.



    I've been flashed by a few women.... (none / 0) (#114)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:13 AM EST
    at concerts and sporting events...kinda enjoyed it:)  Looking forward to my first groping:)

    Seriously though, thanks for the insight.  You ladies are right, guys don't have to worry about that stuff, at least I don't.

    My survival instincts only kick in like that when there's a cop in my path. I'd imagine the powerless feeling I get when faced with John Law on a dark street is similar to the feelings you guys are describing.


    I've been flashed and groped (none / 0) (#119)
    by stillife on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:58 AM EST
    (Not at the same time.)  It's just one of those things that women deal with every day.  

    I yelled at the groper and he scurried off the El train at the next stop.  


    Yep (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:43:18 AM EST
    flashed on a bus, groped on an elevator.

    I learned, at long last, to be confrontational about it.  The next time I got a whistle, I got in the guy's face and told him we don't act that way in my neighborhood, as it was at a gas station and he had out-of-state plates.  And the next time I got a public groping, I turned on the guy and got public about it myself.  

    Never saw a guy -- business suit, briefcase, and all -- get such a scared look and scuttle away so fast.  I think he must have spread the word about me with on altperv.net or something, as I haven't been bothered since.  I would attribute it to my graceful aging, but pervs bother women of any age.


    Yep (none / 0) (#235)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:08:34 PM EST
    it's a guy thing. Find out how many of your male friends have been groped or, likely, more, by older guys when they were kids.

    Many years ago when I first moved to LA me and my now wife and another girl went out to explore LA and find a good bar on a Fri night, and we found a whole strip of very lively looking joints on Santa Monica Blvd. in W. Hollywood.

    So we parked the car and walked to the area. As we walked many of the guys on the sidewalks whistled and hollered.

    I complimented the girls on their hotness and they were kind of embarrassed by the attention but flattered nonetheless.

    When we got to the first bar, and saw that every single person inside was male, we realized what was going on...

    That said, it's not only guys, in my late teens in a bar in Houston, a girl walked up to me and grabbed my joint. Too bad I had absolutely no rap at that age.


    why (none / 0) (#237)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:29:22 PM EST
    does this NEVER happen to me?
    I protest.


    Even Though (none / 0) (#238)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:36:14 PM EST
    Your reaction seems typical, some women enjoy the attention. I used to think that those who appeared to have little problem with the catcalls and whistles were morons. Then I thought it must be cultural, something really foreign to my world view. But one day a well educated friend of mine from Berkeley revealed to me that one of the things she liked about NYC was being whistled at, etc.

    I was astounded, shocked and asked her if she was nuts. She said that she liked the attention once in a while because in Berkeley everyone was so PC that she could walk around naked and everyone would act as if she was not even there.

    Not typical but it did make me think out of the box for a minute.


    Hard for me to understand, and not (none / 0) (#240)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:51:22 PM EST
    what I've read about most women's preferences.

    So the thing for men to do, it would seem, is to presume that most women do not appreciate it -- rather than presume that most women do.  That is, those men who even think of the women as humans whose preferences matter.


    It Must Work (none / 0) (#242)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:29:38 PM EST
    Sometimes or the men would stop doing it. And I have seen the macho facade fall off in the bat of an eye lash when the offending man's partner shows up.  I think our mating rituals and dominance issues are more complex than meets the eye. Power is not always where it seems to be. And I am not justifying sexist behavior, just pointing out that it is more useful to examine power dynamics irrespective of gender and race, before coming to a conclusion about what is going on in a given situation.

    I always laugh when some of my female german friends tell me that they had to go to Italy as a teen to learn about sex. Not because the Italian men were special but because they could not have sex in their village without everyone finding out about it.


    Look, "it must work sometimes" (none / 0) (#243)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:11:26 PM EST
    does not contradict anything above, agreed.

    It just makes any guy who would go by this as his credo a boor and a creep.

    Now, if that's a guy's preference as to what he wants to be, I don't waste my time on him.  Or this.


    Have a great day Jeralyn.... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:46:07 AM EST
    ...hope you get a chance to relax sometime this weekend!

    Voting Hillary is a once in a lifetime opportunity (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by catfish on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:54:47 AM EST
    Because within her lifetime she faced discrimination for being a woman.

    She could not apply to Yale for undergrad - they did not accept women. She wrote to NASA as a 14-year-old asking what it takes to work there - only to be told she had to be a boy.

    Her mother was born before women had the right to vote.

    If we wait, the first female president will not have experienced these things in her own lifetime.

    Take that, Bill Richardson!

    Furthermore, Hillary is a descendant (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:59:49 AM EST
    of women, as well! She has womanosity in her blood!

    but by some (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:04:07 AM EST
    she's been accused of being either "too womanly" or "not womanly enough."  

    Interestingly enough, despite reports to the contrary, Hillary didn't disown her grandmother--who was a woman.


    Well, i'm not sure she has anything but (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:09:33 AM EST
    white ancestors. This looks like proof of prejudice on Hillary's part.

    OH, and she's (none / 0) (#112)
    by Robo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:37:42 AM EST
    blond.  Further proof of prejudice, particularly if she purposely made herself blond.

    Grandma D? (none / 0) (#108)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:35:44 AM EST
    Apparently Grandma D was a real...uh...spitfire.  At least from the books I'm reading.  Hill's mom, Dorothy, didn't like the man she married later on (partly because he was Jewish, but that's another thing I'm reading about...both Dorothy and Della (I believe that was her name) devolved into anti-Semitic remarks when they were mad at him, but Rosenberg was a very nice guy).

    Dorothy was apparently a "mean" woman towards her husband and her mother/stepfather.  And I'm not reading much good stuff about Hugh Rodham, either.  Ah well.  :\


    I think Obamas (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:56:10 AM EST
    "typical white person" remark is going to get almost as much play as Pastor Wright.
    and could do almost as much damage.  it was a stupid clueless thing to say that says so much about the inner workings of the mans mind.
    it is sticking with people.

    It's not good for Obama ... (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:02:17 AM EST
    really hard to spin that comment.  It didn't even sound like he'd realized what he'd just said.

    Not the story he wanted going into the weekend.


    wha? where? really? n/t (none / 0) (#36)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:05:17 AM EST
    Beyond Stupid (5.00 / 0) (#205)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:33:26 AM EST
    Didn't much care for Obama repeatedly sacrificing his Grandma for his own political gains to begin with. This is a line we would just not cross in my family and I'm sure my family is not unique. This new twist trying to justify his use of Grannie just makes me even madder still.

    Labeling anyone who doesn't vote for Obama as a racist is IMO going to backfire big time.


    Is it getting play on TV? (none / 0) (#38)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:05:39 AM EST
    It's on the level of a campaign ending gaffe.
    For my money, though, Obama's campaign SHOULD have been over when he said with a straight face that he's more qualified to conduct foreign policy because he spent four years in elementary school in Indonesia.

    Yes it is... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:07:29 AM EST
    ..even on MSNBC they are calling it a gaffe on Obama camp. Even while they are shilling that Hillary "might" be behind the passport snooping and that the Richardson endorsement is a "slap in the face" to Hillary.

    Yeah, I put MSNBC on this morning ... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:11:25 AM EST
    to hear their spin. They best they could come up with was he meant a "typical white woman of her generation" which really isn't a lot better.

    Obama Has Ceded MI And FL Voters To McCain (none / 0) (#211)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:37:56 AM EST
    and now he has IMO given him a firm lock on the senior vote as well. The majority of seniors were not real impressed with Obama to begin with and this will not help them change their minds.

    Typical White Person Story (none / 0) (#43)
    by Athena on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:09:57 AM EST
    Yes - the remark has been played and analyzed already several times today on MSNBC and FOX (don't know about CNN).  It really seems to have hit a nerve.  And it's being characterized as a gaffe, or a mistake by Obama that will cost him - again.

    It's not a horrible remark, of course. (none / 0) (#48)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:12:38 AM EST
    What really sticks out though is that this is exactly the sort of thing Hillary supporters have been crucified for.
    Turnabout is definitely called for over this!

    actually (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:14:42 AM EST
    I think it IS a pretty horrible remark.
    I would just say try saying the reverse around your home or office and see what happens.
    try it.

    Well, i'm not going to struggle to defend it.. (none / 0) (#67)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:19:16 AM EST

    honestly (none / 0) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:32 AM EST
    I defended Wright but this is really the very definition of a racist comment.
    there is no was to spin it.

    In the context of knowing about his (none / 0) (#79)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:24:07 AM EST
    other grandparents, it's even more telling:

    I would say (none / 0) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:24:50 AM EST
    that in a vacuum it would not be much of a big deal.
    we dont live in a vacuum and it is being played and replayed against the backdrop of the last weeks stories.
    it is one of those stories that "plays into the prevailing story line".
    you know, like Hillary will do anything to win.

    And what makes it ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:25:00 AM EST
    especially bad politically is it follows on the heels of the Wright business. It now looks like he "listened" more than he suggested.

    I'm super forgiving of candidate misstatements because these guys talk all day.  But I cannot imagine how that comment got from brain to lips.


    what makes it bad (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:41:15 AM EST
    is Mr. Unity just gave a "historic" speech on race condemning such divisive comments.

    Right... (none / 0) (#131)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:44:39 AM EST
    so he either misspoke in the speech, or misspoke a day  later...either way...its a gaffe

    as one of those (none / 0) (#105)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:34:59 AM EST
    "typical white women" to whom he prefers, I resent being lumped in and labelled a racist.  Let's be clear that Obama is stating that very thing by implication: his grandmother, who said racist things and was frightened by a black man who tried to mug her on the street, is a racist, and she is a typical white woman, ergo...

    Right, I agree completely (none / 0) (#133)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:45:50 AM EST
    lets be fair though...that was his implied message...he never straight out said it...

    And to be clear... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:47:13 AM EST
    I am not saying you didn't say that, I was posting merely as a reminder about the entire discussion

    (sorry for not being more clear)


    he said (none / 0) (#188)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:19:22 AM EST
    she was a typical white person who feared black people.
    what, exactly, is not "straight out" about that?

    That was the implication (none / 0) (#210)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:37:54 AM EST
    not the verbiage...he's guilty of the implication, but he didn't say the words...

    Yes yes, we both know diaries on certain blogs will use that as his defense...but the implication is clear...I just think it is important that we debate with accurate linguistics so that later on down the road someone won't try to pull our entire argument away by saying "You said he said this, but he NEVER 'SAID' it"...


    Bill and Hillary (none / 0) (#124)
    by Robo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:42:46 AM EST
    have been crucified for much less.  I'm sure the Obama spin with trivialize this, but it is difficult being able to do so when they twisted themselves into pretzels to turn "fairy tale" and "it took Lyndon Johnson and MLK" into absolute proof of racism.

    Leader (none / 0) (#96)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:31:09 AM EST
    How will it feel if the president dismisses the majority of Americans into the "typical white person" pile heap.  

    Now that is unity, but since none of you people are in the creative class you don't get the new unity, diminish everyone in the same way that the society diminishes minorities so we are all unified.  Or something like that....


    This is really a shame (none / 0) (#143)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:51:59 AM EST
    I actually have a lot of sympathy for Obama on this...

    He is in a huge hole, dug not by his own doing, and one in which there is NO right answer...none...

    He gives a speech that under normal circumstances would be a great beginning to an important conversation...but under current context is purely a political play...his expectations have been raised so high that he can only under achieve on achievements even when he rhetorically soars...and he is finally getting put under a (low powered) microscope which he and his team appear utterly unprepared for...

    I took offense at the harsh treatment of Hillary, and I don't relish in Obama's discomfort...

    With that said, this will be a real test for him, and so far he isn't even "barely passing"


    Hole...digging (none / 0) (#152)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:56:32 AM EST
    I think he helped to dig the hole with a great deal of help from Axelrod.  They played the race game and it came back to bite them.  

    Egh (none / 0) (#180)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:14:56 AM EST
    Obama has dug some holes on race, but race is a tangential issue with this Wright controversy, the media (and us to some degree on the nets) have mislabeled it race...but the rub is about Wright's anti-American offensive commentary...

    Albeit Obama is probably the reason (none / 0) (#186)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:17:29 AM EST
    race is NOW the focus because of his speech with which he helped the media narrative drive hard to race...

    And as I posted below, he definitely has dug his hole deeper with comments like "typical white"

    His explanation on LKL helped put the remark in context, and walk it back a bit, but like John Cole yesterday...he said what he said, regardless of the fact that he later walked it back...I agree


    I honestly dont see how you can say (none / 0) (#154)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:57:36 AM EST
    its "not of his own doing"
    what about this is not of his own doing.
    even the hole.  he just keeps digging.

    I am specifically refering to (none / 0) (#173)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:12:18 AM EST
    the catalyst for this discussion which is Wright...Wright's words are obviously a hole for Obama, that Obama did not dig himself...there can be tangential arguments made about "Obama should have walked out" etc...but it all boils down to the same thing, Wright is the issue not Obama, it is Obama's association with Wright that therefore gives Obama an issue, but the root of the issue is Wright, not Obama.

    I also said that there is no right answer...he cannot get out of the hole on this issue, for his campaign the best case scenario is the media moving on (hence the passport issue the campaign was pushing last night, the release of the Clinton/Wright photo etc...they are grasping at straws to move the story)...so yes, the digging and digging is his (and his campaign and surrogate's ill advised flailing about in this metaphorical hole in which we find him)


    I just disagree (none / 0) (#182)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:15:50 AM EST
    I dont think the issue is Wright. I think the issues are judgment, honesty, trust, religion and leadership.  in about that order.
    Wright is prism through which to view Obama.  he is no longer the issue.

    And (none / 0) (#184)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:16:55 AM EST
    it is completely of his own doing.  he was not tied in the pew.

    this isn't correct (none / 0) (#187)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:19:21 AM EST
    Wright is wright...Obama is Obama...sure, shame on Obama for not walking out...but its not Obama's word that are at issue...

    Obama's word that are at issue (none / 0) (#191)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:21:20 AM EST
    wrong again.  Wright did not say "typical white person" or maybe he did but we dont know that.
    but as far as Wright you are correct.
    its not his words that are now the issue.  it is Obamas judgment and honesty.

    Agree (none / 0) (#195)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:24:21 AM EST
    but I think you're refering to issues branch off of the singular, whereas I am solely discussing the singular...

    we're in agreement on much of this, see my response above (comment # 192)


    sorry didnt mean to push (none / 0) (#203)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:31:42 AM EST
    I more or less agree
    Wright was the grenade that blew open the protective media shell.
    he was what brought all this on.  in that sense you are correct.
    but I disagree that this is not Obamas doing.
    he knew this was coming.  or if he was so stupid he did not he REALLY has no business being president.
    he knew this was out there and his lame response is to go on national teevee and tell us his grandmother was a typical racist white woman os he gets it?
    it doesnt get much more amature hour than that.

    Of course, Obama knew this was coming (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:44:06 AM EST
    because the "controversial" words of Wright were the reason that Obama, at the last minute, cancelled Wright speaking at Obama's campaign kickoff event.

    More than a year ago.

    And in all the time since, this was the best defense Obama could muster?  He cannot handle the GE.


    I agree with you about this (none / 0) (#192)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:21:49 AM EST
    You are speaking in the macro...I am speaking about the micro...I think you are right on these as issues raised by this singular issue (upon which I am focusing, and these others branch from)

    On the macro we agree, on the micro we see things differently, but defiantly an interesting perspective you and Stella have, and a great topic for debate :)


    sorry to drill (none / 0) (#193)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:23:45 AM EST
    but I am really sick of the excuses being made for Obama.

    No worries (none / 0) (#196)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:25:46 AM EST
    I am defiantly not a practices of Obama apologetics...(I think my record speaks for itself)

    Nor a good at proofreading (none / 0) (#198)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:26:24 AM EST
    that should have read "Definitely not a practicer...)

    If you knew about the racial attitudes of the (none / 0) (#52)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:13:39 AM EST
    OTHER side of his family, you might understand better. Apparently one is not allowed to discuss these facts on TL though.

    What, we're not (none / 0) (#111)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:37:26 AM EST
    supposed to discuss what Obama wrote in Dreams from my Father?  ?

    What comment? (none / 0) (#54)
    by kenosharick on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:14:21 AM EST
    I am a news junkie and have no idea what you are talking about. Please fill me in.

    google (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:16:04 AM EST
    Results 1 - 10 of about 11,000 for Obama "typical white person"

    It does say a lot about the workings (none / 0) (#103)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:32:57 AM EST
    I mean, it says that underneath the cool unity exterior might lie another hidden agenda. But, Jeralyn was not happy about the open thread yesterday. So maybe we should just talk about peeps. Ha and a Heh.

    My view (none / 0) (#146)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:53:36 AM EST
    I feel that he was getting some heat for implying grandma was a racist.  So he was trying to back away from that by saying, "oh it's not that she's bad, this is just a common view among white people."  Which of course, simply offends a whole new bunch of folks.

    So in trying to say she's not (none / 0) (#161)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:01:15 AM EST
    that much of a racist, he said all -- or at least "typical" -- whites are racists?

    ummm... yes? (none / 0) (#219)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:54:18 AM EST

    I used to read Wonkette (none / 0) (#199)
    by zyx on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:28:56 AM EST
    but they are too gaga about Obama to be funny any more.

    Read some yesterday though.  ONE good comment:  "the woman who crosses the road when she sees a black man coming is a stereotype".  Lose that dumb imagery, please!


    Of course (none / 0) (#212)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:38:32 AM EST
    Of course he has ideas about white people. He's half-white (unless you believe in the "one drop" rule). He was raised by a white mother and two white grandparents.

    And it's true that white people generally do often feel fear at the presence of black people in public spaces. Not everyone, not in every place, not every time. A few years ago I was talking about this very issue with a coworker, about white people who fear black people. He told me about how living in a "liberal" city like San Francisco didn't stop people being suspicious of him, especially if he were in the "wrong" neighborhood. Police would invariably be called and the cops would routinely roust him for being in the wrong place. That mistreatment was based on fear of black men. Maybe it's not so bad now but it still exists.

    My friend said that in some neighborhoods you'd be a fool not to be cautious if you saw a group of young men coming in your direction, no matter what the color.

    The ultimate point is that the more segregated your life is, the more likely that that fear is there. And, I might add, the more likely you won't admit that fear.


    so what are you saying exactly (none / 0) (#214)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:40:27 AM EST
    that typical white people should be afraid of typical black people.
    sorry I dont buy it.

    So you're saying that Obama is not (none / 0) (#233)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:40:54 PM EST
    a "typical black person."  And you don't see that it's racist to say that, too.  Jeesh.

    And I'm sure they'll have a photo (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by NJDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:58:03 AM EST
    of Bill Clinton and that killer duck on the MSM tonight! :)

    What an amateurish move by the BO camp.  I think it's appropriate to compare how the two candidates  do under pressure in order to determine who would be best in the GE.  In this contest, HRC wins hands down.    

    Funniest line (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Robo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:52:09 AM EST
    I've seen about it:  "Do they also have a photo of Bill socializing with the racist grandmother?"

    amateurish (none / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:01:55 AM EST
    and being roundly dismissed and made jokes about on the MSM.
    havent seen it presented once with a straight face.

    Yup, even Chuck Todd ... (none / 0) (#49)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:13:17 AM EST
    called it "amateur hour."

    That is a creepy peep (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Lil on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:16:46 AM EST
    I have been holding back watching this whole race/wright/Obama thing unfold. Now I just want to say the thought of having to defend Obama through Nov. 4th makes me sick and exhausted just thinking about it. I can't even imagine the conversation with family and friends trying to convince them that Obama will make a better president than McCain. They won't even hear it (except for my black friends, who I don't need to defend Obama to). I am for Hillary, but always thought we'd be ok with Obama. Based on what I've heard from whites in my circle, he is done and will not win in the GE. That just makes me sick. I remember defending Kerry against distortions and how difficult that was; I'm not sure I have the energy to do that again in this case, with such dismal chances of Obama winning.  Please convince me Hillary can pull this out, because Obama will lose to McCain.

    At this point all that Obama will get from me... (none / 0) (#78)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:23:01 AM EST
    ...is my vote. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. Will he be able to change that? Maybe, but as I told my husband, who ardently supports Obama, he has to at least try. And at this point I don't see any attempt whatsoever from the Obama camp to win my vote as a Latina feminist. He assumes he has it, and well, yes he has if he is the Democratic nominee. But if he is also assuming that he has my enthusiastic support, my precious volunteer hours phonebanking, canvassing, etc..then no.

    If Obama gets the nom (none / 0) (#118)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:56 AM EST
    Then I expect him to grovel for my vote and my support.

    He wrote it himself.
    He said it himself.
    Then he repeated it on subsequent interview(s)!

    If it was someone on Hillary's staff, the Obama suppoorters would be demanding they be fired.  What's Obama going to do, fire himself?  


    Does a politician care (none / 0) (#127)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:44:03 AM EST
    is they have your support?  I kind of think they just want the vote and they'll get it any way they can.  Both candidates are relying on Dems being loyal for November.

    Obama is on the attack (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:18:50 AM EST
    Right, SHE is the untrustworthy one (none / 0) (#116)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:22 AM EST
    when HE is the one who said

    I didn't know about Wright's comments
    Wait a minute, I did know, sorry
    Well, I really didn't know about Wright's comments

    in succession within the past week.  And let's not forget the NAFTA b.s.

    Please.  Guh.


    Skulking RCP and Politico (none / 0) (#136)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:49:28 AM EST
    RCP has some good articles up.  I was at Politico where they had quotes from Plouffe too.  My favorite.... she has 'a real character gap.'  So who will say anything to win?

    Along with Obama's response to Larry King's question of whether Obama would have Clinton as a VP... uh, uh, she's SMART (he didn't say it in a positive way.)

    I'm not sure what the Obama camp is up to.  The odd comebacks etc.  I don't think the Richardson endorsement is going to be enough to get the media turned around even with CNN's help.


    Kitchen sink strategy? (none / 0) (#151)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:56:02 AM EST
    I notice that a number of the "claims" have already been debunked as well (thinking specifically of NAFTA and the 60 Minutes interview).

    Also - does this count as forwarding Right Wing frames?


    I don't know who's to blame for that crime scene (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by ChrisO on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:19:11 AM EST
    but don't go blaming me or my peeps.

    I read the exchange (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by tree on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:21 AM EST
    It appeared to me that you were repeatedly daring her to ban you. Its not at all surprising that she did, and the banning said more about you than it did about her,IMHO.

    One should expect (none / 0) (#185)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:17:17 AM EST
    to get banned by saying they got banned by pointing out an unappealing aspect of someone's character and for using phrases such as kool-aid drinkers.

    The Bill Clinton - Wright photo (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by blogtopus on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:26:03 AM EST
    Have you even seen that photo, it's up at Taylor Marsh's place. Bill isn't even talking to Wright! He's looking away and chatting with someone else while shaking Wright's hand.

    Was that a snub or a premonition?

    I have seen it (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:28:57 AM EST
    its what desperation looks like

    If it was a snub.... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:29:46 AM EST
    ..maybe it's the motivation behind the "riding dirty" bash.

    Are you kidding me? (none / 0) (#128)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:44:17 AM EST
    That's part of the neat little pigeonhole that the Obama camp has placed the Clinton's in....they aren't allowed to talk about any of this...lest, well you know.

    Hahahahaha -- this is how Obama (none / 0) (#241)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:57:00 PM EST
    has screwed himself for the GE, if he's the nominee.  No way can our number-one votegetters, the Clintons, campaign for him -- because Obama has made them out to be racists.

    So your guy is on his own, if he gets the nomination.  G'luck without Bill and Hill -- and without the rest of us who are outraged at this treatment of them and anyone who is with them.  Y'know, all of us "typical white persons" who have given decades since those "excessive '60s" to working for civil rights so that Obama could claim to be post-racial.  And then make such racialized statements himself.

    He is more divisive than anyone I've seen on the national landscape in a long time.  It's understandable from his background that he wouldn't get it, how to handle it, but he just doesn't.


    Oh no! She attended a meeting! (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by NJDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:31:15 AM EST
    The best is that the BO camp wanted her records to show that she wasn't really involved in policy and doesn't have the experience she claims (forget the fact that she's been in the Senate longer than he and had actually held hearings...).  

    But on Fox (yes, I know) they're saying that the archives makes it seem like she was really president!  Now they're back to the co-presidency meme....    

    what we've been watching this past week (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by cpinva on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:31:40 AM EST
    is a four color illustration of the whole "lack of experience" meme. i like sen. obama, but i had a gut feeling from day one that this would come back to bite him, and so it has, big time.

    many here, and elsewhere, have complained about the "never ending primary season", with respect to the democrats. i believe this has actually been the best thing that could have happened for the party, it's allowed the airing of issues now, instead of waiting for nov., when they could adversely impact the GE.

    if a candidate can't handle the long grind of the primaries, how on earth could they legitimately expect anyone to believe they have any business being president?

    the DNC is composed of politicians, politicians who want to continue enjoying their lofty status. don't think for a moment they aren't doing the calculations as we speak, looking at nov. and who has the best chance of defeating sen. mccain.

    should they screw up royally, snatching defeat out of the hands of nearly certain victory, they'll be out on their asses in a heartbeat, if that long.

    bear in mind, what you're seeing now is but a pale shadow of what the republican/right-wingnut smear machine will have in store for the actual dem. nominee, come the GE. if sen. obama can't even handle this poor imitation, how do you suppose he'll fare against some 527 "swift boat" group?

    any thinking person must take this into account, when deciding who to vote for at the democratic party convention. failure to do so is an abrogation of their responsibility to the party and the country.

    remember the whole "vetting" thing (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:34:13 AM EST
    that Hillary tried to talk about for months and no one cared?
    remember that?  this is it.

    Vetting takes time (none / 0) (#165)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:02:55 AM EST
    Vetting takes time... lots of it.  Some people think that it's great this came out now, it will die down.  My belief is stuff gets tossed around for a year or so before it dies down.  You get stuff slammed at you many times, it gets debated to death and then you get sick of it and it can die down.  Some things will never be resolved by debate and they will be used for the GE.

    Its always enlightening (none / 0) (#155)
    by tree on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:57:45 AM EST
    to get the latest Obama spin distilled down to a few paragraphs.

    I would say "typical Obama person" (none / 0) (#168)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:05:31 AM EST
    pfft (none / 0) (#159)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:00:32 AM EST

    All three had passports (none / 0) (#170)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:09:55 AM EST
    breached.  It is no longer a 'Obama as victim' story.  There is no grand conspiracy against him.  

    Richardson said he was moved by Obama's speech.  Richardson is one of the elites, one of the superdelegates his speech was aimed at.  He won't get the kick from an endorsement based on a speech that has contradictory reviews.  The initial media review was it was a great speech.  Go do some more looking... that opinion faded fast as the speech was analyzed.  Some opine it was no more than a bunch of words attempting to justify Wright's words by discussing his experience, and an appeal to white guilt.

    The continued gaffes by the campaign will continue to get more coverage and the endorsement will be looked at as an effort to stop the bleeding.

    Can we have Obama's state senate records, his passport records, all years of his tax returns that he's been in office, his land transaction records...


    Not so fast.... (none / 0) (#174)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:12:40 AM EST
    Schuster is still spinning. Sending frantic text messages to the MSNBC anchor that the Clinton breach was "different." Just a training mistake...next they will say that this is what give Hillary the idea to breach Obama and Clinton.

    honestly (none / 0) (#175)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:12:51 AM EST
    you had to wonder why they were as freaked as they were.
    we will have to see if the Clinton and McCain campaigns have a ferret fire drill over the breeches.

    CNN reporting now (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by magisterludi on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:45:17 AM EST
    Clinton passport info breached also. 3x, apparently. Bay Buchanan was on CNN earlier saying Clinton probably was behind the BHO breach.

    Bay Buchanan and Shcuster... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:53:06 AM EST
    ..now pushing the same memes. So has Buchanan gone progressive or?????

    yep, (none / 0) (#147)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:54:22 AM EST
    too many people ready to jump the shark..now that Hillary has suffered the same invasion I wonder if people will wake up and realize that some low-level data managers like snooping through stuff.  Maybe they were looking for something, maybe not.  Since they apparently can find out who the people were I guess they will be asked.  I'm sure dKos is abuzz with the frustration of losing their new straw man.  Hope Olbermann is paying attn...but now I hope he still tries to keep blaming Clinton for the Obama breach.

    Smart! (none / 0) (#149)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:55:27 AM EST
    She breeches her own passport files in a double switcheroo!

    She will do anything.... (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:00:14 AM EST
    That kitchen sink sure gets around. ;-) (none / 0) (#162)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:01:46 AM EST
    Vicious (none / 0) (#183)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:16:52 AM EST
    Ok...I looked at TPM.  This was the headlie...

    and McCain's too. She is a genious!!! nt (none / 0) (#157)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:58:58 AM EST
    All 3 are breached (none / 0) (#177)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:13:06 AM EST
    and Condoleeza Rice apologizes to Obama...uh...

    I'm sure (none / 0) (#163)
    by Robo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:02:09 AM EST
    Olbermann will be equally outraged.  

    Shame on YOU Hillary Clinton... (none / 0) (#167)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:04:30 AM EST
    for looking at your own passport!

    For that hour of sensationalism on KO's show (none / 0) (#217)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:47:23 AM EST
    last night, he owes Clinton an apology.

    And, for that matter, Edward R. Murrow.


    Oh what will Schuster make of this... (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:51:35 AM EST
    Just breaking...Hillary's passport file was breached too. How cunning of her, to breach her own file as cover!!!!!!!!!! :-)

    I had to laugh (none / 0) (#150)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:55:54 AM EST
    There was the big Obama apology story and in the Breaking News they are talking about Hillary's passport too in 2007 which means, it is the next picture, right? Maybe she already got her apology but it was not made a big deal at the time. So I will trade you 1 Bill and 1 Hillary for 1 Obama. It is all getting silly for the first day of Spring. I needed the laugh.

    Ha Ha, now they are saying McCain too... (none / 0) (#156)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:57:45 AM EST
    ...looks like the story is just more Bush administration spying and/or incompetence.

    I hope Schuster is next (none / 0) (#164)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:02:16 AM EST
    I would imagine... (none / 0) (#224)
    by desertswine on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:03:52 PM EST
    that all of Bush's once or percieved enemies have had their files breached.

    Maria... (none / 0) (#166)
    by Marco21 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:03:58 AM EST
    I thought the same thing. She is one clever evil super genius.

    I am sure a lot of teeth are popping out around huffpo with hundreds of feet being inserted into their respective mouths.


    feet being inserted (none / 0) (#169)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:06:29 AM EST
    you are kidding right?
    it he echo chamber you never have to say you are sorry.

    You're right... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Marco21 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:13:14 AM EST
    I spoke too soon. I just read a few posts where Hillary's spies did it to her too as cover or Bill's all-powerful former Ambassador to Paraguay appointee  did it to garner attention for Hillary.



    Karma (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by NJDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:33:02 AM EST
    the State Dept. news conference is stepping into BO's Oregon rally with Richardson.  Oops, I guess no free press this time.  

    In the interest of fair air time--doesn't HRC have to go on all the shows now and get a full hour with Larry King?  

    I remember an interview from the 90s with the two of them.  They kept on being caught laughing about something during the commercial breaks.  Once the show was over King said, "this is two Scorpio's saying good-night," then they went back to talking.  I've wondering to this day what was so funny...  

    Just wondering (4.50 / 2) (#75)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:21:22 AM EST
    why you would visit a site if you disagree so soundly with it's owner on character issues.

    You can choose from so many sites -- and life is short.

    May I suggest MyDD if you want a discussion with Hillary supporters without the vaccuum that occurs at places like KOS...

    It's her house (none / 0) (#117)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:38 AM EST
    People here can disagree with Jeralyn and they state their views and they are not banned. I engage people here who have views different from my own, mostly supporters of Obama but sometimes supporters of Clinton too. Perhaps you should look back at what you said and your tone, and think about it.

    You'll have to ask Jeralyn (none / 0) (#135)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:47:38 AM EST
    I engaged you on this topic and felt like you were posting nonsense arguments. It didn't seem like a particularly constructive dialog to me.

    No, I will not (none / 0) (#231)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:34:46 PM EST
    I am not the one who banned you, but given your response, I completely agree with Jeralyn's doing so. This is not constructive dialogue.

    It's her blog. I get many comments deleted (4.00 / 1) (#63)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:16:54 AM EST
    , often unfairly in my opinion. On the plus side, the quality of debate on TL is much better than any mixed site I know of.
    Of course, Daily Obama has excellent disquisitions like "Is Hillary completely evil, or just a totally unprincipled opportunist?".

    For now, I'll take TL, although I"m appreciating the comments policy at Noquarter. You can really have a debate there.

    Oh please. I have no idea what you (none / 0) (#83)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:25:34 AM EST
    are talking about.
    Take the drama to Orange Republic.

    Please do. (none / 0) (#206)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:33:41 AM EST
    The last person who whined and even called out BTD on DK was not given much sympathy.  Some people scoffed.  Some people tried to talk some sense into the diarist.  DK has some problems right now, but they still aren't PFF.

    But it's her blog (none / 0) (#87)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:26:54 AM EST
    There's no censorship when she boots someone off. You are able to express your opinions on thousands of other sites. You have not been silenced--Jeralyn's cool, but seriously, she's not that powerful!

    I didn't know those banned (none / 0) (#88)
    by Josey on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:27:21 AM EST
    couldn't read the site.

    I've managed to avoid deletion (none / 0) (#137)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:50:20 AM EST
    thus far.

    I'm not by nature a combative person and the last month at dk has given me a lot of practice at walking away from nonproductive discussions.  


    I have a feeling (2.00 / 1) (#20)
    by ajain on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:57:37 AM EST
    Sen. Clinton is going to withdraw soon. She is not out campaigning this weekend at all (spending time at home in NY - not even DC) and I think the road is getting narrower and narrower for her. Plus AAs will tremendously outraged if she wins, whether fair or not. I dont think anyone in her base will get as upset as I suspect AAs will.

    excuse me (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:00:14 AM EST
    its easter.  thats a religious holiday for most people.
    keep dreaming.

    It's also a family holiday (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:11:24 AM EST
    It's possibly she's spending real quality time with family....and needs a weekend off.

    After all Obama is Muslim, right? (none / 0) (#69)
    by Lil on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:07 AM EST
    Just snark (poking the right wing)

    at t his point he (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:21:01 AM EST
    might be wishing he was

    I think you're wrong about that... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:01:09 AM EST
    ... a lot of women will be furious.

    no kidding (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:04:42 AM EST
    I love that it is only the Obama supporters who are fretted over about being "upset".
    got a big newsflash for ya.  IF Obama is the nominee, I said if because I dont think he will be but IF he is, you will see lots of pissed off people.
    many who will vote for McCain.  many who will vote for Nader and many who will just stay home.

    Obama followers promise to riot & boycott (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Josey on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:15:41 AM EST
    if he isn't the nominee. Obama has never dissuaded this.
    Couple that with Obama's declaration that "blacks are angry."
    Scary stuff to many Americans.
    And yet - Obama opposes the Bush admin using the fear factor.

    Gosh (4.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Claw on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:32:47 AM EST
    Imagine Obama acknowledging that some black people are angry while simultaneously acknowledging that some whites are, too.  The nerve!

    does that comment (none / 0) (#171)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:09:59 AM EST
    make you a "typical Obama supporter"?

    Brilliant (none / 0) (#181)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:15:21 AM EST
    Stating the obvious is groundbreaking?  I guess some of us already figured this out, but thanks for clueing us in.  

    Yabbut - are they Angry Libruls? (none / 0) (#200)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:29:56 AM EST
    Because nothing is as bad as being called an Angry Librul.

    Is it time for some new memes?

    Clinton Derangement Syndrome.
    Bush Derangement Syndrome.

    What do we call angry black people?  Quick!  Think something up before the Right Wing Noise Machine does!


    It's pretty even (4.00 / 1) (#61)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:16:27 AM EST
    basically right now 20% of Democrats are saying they will not vote for the other Dem. candidate.  It is equal among supporters for both sides.

    No, I think that Obama hemhorrages (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:17:59 AM EST
    much more support among Hillary voters. I thought I read that it is up to 40% now.

    If it's a competition (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:02:31 AM EST
    A competition to see whose supporters will be more upset, just say so.

    Weather report from hell? (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:04:21 AM EST
    Nope still nice and toasty down there.

    In other words, ain't gonna happen.

    And with the Obama campaign self-destructing more each day, why would she?


    You think wrong -- you have not seen (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:10:14 AM EST
    Mama get really mad.  You definitely don't wanna see a million Mamas and their daughters get really mad.

    And you don't get that Hillary Clinton knows her women's history.  I know this from hearing her speeches for decades now.  So she knows the historic meaning of her campaign and will not -- will NOT -- be the woman who quit too soon.  

    And she can still win, y'know.  But enjoy your fairy tale.


    I am an ardent Hillary supporter (2.50 / 2) (#59)
    by ajain on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:15:56 AM EST
    But I just had a feeling. Obama is out campaigning even though it is a holiday weekend. It is entirely possible and hopefully probable that I am wrong, but I just had a thought that I laid out. No need to get annoyed.

    well... (5.00 / 6) (#113)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:38:47 AM EST
    it's not like he can go to church on Sunday.

    Sure, keep telling yourself that (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by stillife on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:13:42 AM EST
    I guess that's why I just got an e-mail asking for Hillary volunteers in PA.

    wow, that seems to be a recurring topic (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:21:35 AM EST
    concerned person sadly realizes that Hillary has no chance, despite all evidence to the contrary, and will withdraw.

    Hang in their lil buddy, she isn't going to withdraw, she's going to win because Obama is imploding.  Chin up.  Contrary to popular opinion black people have brains and know, because they've seen it, that Hillary is not, nor has she ever been, a racist or anything resembling being a racist.  She'll be fine.  Barack will still be a decent junior Senator with ambition and future presidential runs will be a possibility.

    She is going to be a great president.  For example, just yesterday I was telling her that we should round up all those who have accused her of racism and ship them to Gitmo for a little waterboarding and forceful re-education.  She looked at me with gentle eyes and instructed me as to the immorality of false imprisonment and torture.  My eyes are now wide open to the possibility of peace and prosperity in this time of greed and intemperance.  


    AA outrage (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:35:04 AM EST
    should be directed at Obama.  

    1.  He did not want to be the "black candidate" but wanted black allegiance.

    2.  He diminishes the "older civil rights fighters" as angry voices from the past.

    3.  What is he promising to the AA community?  What has he done?  Based on track record, he let the Rezko owned  housing in his community go under, then blame the" neighborhood demographics" and not the slum lord.  



    I don't know about that (4.00 / 1) (#50)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:13:26 AM EST
    but there does seem to be less fight coming out of the fighter.  I am surprised how weak the revote battle has been.  Maybe she's thinking of 2012.

    little yellow bunny thing has (none / 0) (#12)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:46:05 AM EST
    been decapitated in what can only be described as "a painful reminder of how much Hillary Clinton hates little yellow bunny things."

    Couldn't be Hillary (none / 0) (#123)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:42:02 AM EST
    She swallows them whole and still alive!

    I was going to say (none / 0) (#148)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:54:50 AM EST
    not HIllary because the entire head was not bitten off.

    Seriously, didn't Halerpin get the memo (none / 0) (#35)
    by NJDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:05:17 AM EST
    that there's a big Holiday this weekend....HELLO

    And she, Bill, and Chelsea deserve some rest.  So do BO and family for that matter.

    Schuster must feel totally protected... (none / 0) (#37)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:05:39 AM EST
    ...he's gone full tilt on blaming the Clintons for the passport breach. Now they he is even naming the person that they are tying to Bill Clinton in the State Department and putting meat on the bones of this conspiracy theory.

    to minimize the Wright fallout (none / 0) (#77)
    by Josey on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:22:01 AM EST
    the Obama camp is pushing the memeS that Hillary lied about her NAFTA involvement because she attended meetings!; she is part of The Family; the Clintons are involved in breach of Obama's passport.
    And of course these speculations and lies are perpetuated with the media's assistance.

    The stars are aligned (none / 0) (#84)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:25:35 AM EST
    for an Economic disaster.

    Bank failure was shored up by fed for the first time since the depression.

    People are losing their homes in record number ... leaving people homeless.

    Energy prices are at all time high.

    The stock market has been shored up so many times by cutting the interest rate... rather than letting it adjust.

    Companies have ther money investined in bonds which are tied up in aursions that no one is buying.. the government had to step in and shore this up also.

    NOW .... WHO will be the Dem nominee to get us out of this mess?

    I have much more confidence in Hillary to get us out of the mess.

    We may end up with Sen Obama as the nominee. How is he going to handle this? Does he have the experience to handle this?

    If a Dem gets in the WH... they better get us out of this... or Dems will be left out of the WH for years to come.

    maybe it isn't the disagreement she (none / 0) (#93)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:30:10 AM EST
    disagrees with, but the attitude with which you disagree.  

    She is a lawyer with some fairly impressive credentials so I doubt she would have trouble holding her own in an honest debate.  But why should she bother with an argument when she knows you don't want rational debate as much as you want to pick a fight?  

    uh yeah (none / 0) (#189)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:20:39 AM EST
    there's the attitude..... got it now. Move along people, move along.

    FLA Court of Appeals Dismisses Lawsuit (none / 0) (#126)
    by stillife on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:43:23 AM EST
    against DNC.  I just read that on Taylor Marsh.

    Condi speaks & our tax dollars at work (none / 0) (#138)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:50:40 AM EST
    I keep forgetting she is still the S of S. Today she apologized to Obama for the passport breach. Also, in 1992, when it happened to Bill Clinton,
    The disclosure of inappropriate passport inquiries recalled an incident in 1992, when a Republican political appointee at the State Department was demoted over a search of presidential candidate Bill Clinton's passport records. At the time he was challenging President George H.W. Bush.

    After a three-year, $2.2 million probe, a federal independent counsel exonerated officials in the incident, saying that while some of the actions investigated were "stupid, dumb and partisan," they were not criminal.

    Oh, and that was taken from the Yahoo News Site. (none / 0) (#142)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:51:46 AM EST
    A/P Writer quoted.

    Did Anyone Notice This? (none / 0) (#139)
    by flashman on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:51:24 AM EST
    I've been searching for a link to last night's "Hardball" segment where CM showed a chart of national polling history for Hillary/Obama.  He flashed the chart and pointed to a break in Obama's numbers that seemed to show that the contraversy over passed and Obama's numbers are back on the rise.  But, the audience didn't get much of a chance to examine the chart, as he only quickly flashed it on the screen.  I think this is the chart he had. http://www.pollster.com/08-US-Dem-Pres-Primary.php The part he was pointing out as a break in the polling was, in fact, the line showing Hillary's numbers, and how they are breaking up on the contraversy.

    Can anyone confirm/deny this?

    PS I'm having no luck linking here.  Here is the link to the chart.


    My Bad (none / 0) (#201)
    by flashman on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:30:40 AM EST
    Please ignor this.  I found the poll he was using.  I should do more research before I post.

    Get the hell outta here..... (none / 0) (#153)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:57:07 AM EST
    Really Decon?  You got banned?  That's f*cked up.

    As far as I'm concerned you are one of the best commenters here, and I've learned a lot from your comments.  I've never seen you cross any lines.

    I'm leaving in protest, and to be quite honest I'm not sure I'll be back.  This blog is a shadow of it's former self these days anyway.  Petty politics and partisan bickering where once was sincere debate and discussion on the issues of the day, especially criminal justice.  A real shame I say.

    I really am shocked.

    Decon...it has been a pleasure sir.  See ya around brother.

    Gee kdog (none / 0) (#213)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:39:02 AM EST
    Don't leave..... you can't. Have a smoke, relax, but please, loyalty to Decon is one thing, and admirable, but what about the rest of us?

    Thank you squeaky.... (none / 0) (#223)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:03:24 PM EST
    Maybe I'll give it another go after the electon, maybe then this blog we be back to it's former glory.

    I've got nowhere else to go for this type of thing...this blog was truly one of a kind, but no more.  

    I'll miss ya squeaky...and sarc, glanton, roy, Bob In Pacifica, ppj even:)  Che's Lounge and Peaches and others who have already moved on. And all the other quality commenters past and present that escape me at this moment.  Thanks for the education and sharing your life experience, I know this sounds cheesy but I believe this blog has helped me to better myself.

    Thanks to TChris for keeping me informed on issues that matter to me.

    And special thanks to the hostess for putting up with my knuckleheaded views all these years.  The Talkleft of old will always hold a special place in my heart.

    Peace and Love everybody...smoke 'em if you got 'em:)


    Clinton's passport files also breached (none / 0) (#172)
    by Grey on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:11:46 AM EST
    They were breached in 2007 and Sec. Rice only just now called Sen. Clinton to let her know that it happened.

    Way to be on the ball, State Department!

    And it seems that Sen. McCain's passport files were also breached.

    History Making Speech (none / 0) (#176)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:12:52 AM EST
    Ok...we need to get rid of this phrase.  This is like calling everyone who just does their job a hero.  Some history making speeches were vile, how is that positive?    

    Look at this speech it has the same Obama speech pattern, it's the Obama story, only in America.  Anyone who has not experienced or thought about the racial issues he talked about must have been hiding under a rock the last 30 years.  Yet, when it's time for him to speak from his soul and heart, we get "typical white person", the same old.  Obama making a speech is like McDonald's making a french fry.  

    Thanks (none / 0) (#179)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:14:46 AM EST
    another $200 on it's way.

    Axelrod stepping on his own "stories" (none / 0) (#190)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:20:49 AM EST
    They decided to push that photo of Wright with Bill Clinton at a really bad time.(which is like, anytime) But it's especially bad now considering that the passport "story" just cancelled itself out when it was revealed that both Hillary Clinton's and John McCain's passport file was also breached.

    Of course, a true Clinton-hating conspiracy theorist knows that if Hillary was going to have one of her "goons" spy on passport files, they would be smart enough to look at her file also for cover, to make it look like they were all victims! /sarcasm

    hmmmmmmm, tough call. (none / 0) (#197)
    by cpinva on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:26:21 AM EST
    "Is Hillary completely evil, or just a totally unprincipled opportunist?".

    ok, do i have to pick one or the other, or can i pick both? as long as she's competent, and isn't sacrificing virgins in the oval office, i'm not sure it really matters to me.

    i must say though, the petite horns coming out of the back of her head looked very stylish when combined with the red pansuit.

    also, the whole "completely evil" thing is underrated. if you were the leader of a foreign country, would you really want to piss off someone who was completely evil, and had the ability, with the push of a button, to turn your entire country into a smoking, nuclear glass lined hole in the ground? something to think about!

    ok, i've looked at that pic for some time now, and drawing on my expertise, gained from watching many, many, many hours of law & order/csi, i've come to a conclusion:

    blunt force trauma is the cause of death, not a gunshot. insufficient blood spatter for it to have been a wound from a bullet traveling at high velocity.

    as well, while on the surface, the 4 bunnies appear to have no direct relationship to each other, it turns out that the bunny on the far left met the dead bunny's spouse at a local coffee shop, where both stopped daily for their morning hit of caffeine. turned out they both wanted their respective spouses gone. they entered into an agreement to each do in the other's spouse, after getting huge life insurance policies on them.

    they figured since there was no other direct connection between them, no one would ever figure it out. the left-over peppermint stick gave them away, as the csi team was able to lift paw prints from it, connecting it to bunny# 1.

    am i good or what? lol

    Personally (none / 0) (#202)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:30:57 AM EST
    I think it's just plastic surgery gone bad -- a peepified Michael Jackson, with all his peeps hanging out wondering what to do.

    wondering = "wondered" dang.... (none / 0) (#207)
    by NJDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:34:14 AM EST

    Banned? (none / 0) (#208)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:35:50 AM EST

    Deconstructionist is in time out, he repeatedly violated the sites rules on the two threads I've read so far today. He's also chattering. If he's allowed back he'll be limited in the
    number of comments he can make per day.

    Unless there is more to the story than this, I thing that you should give the fainting couch a rest. Many of us have gotten this same warning, and lived through it. You are lucky that you have not been in 'time out' before this, considering that you have broken the rules many many times.

    A big ego has its downsides. Whining does not help your case here.

    Thanks for clarifying -- this is the warning (none / 0) (#218)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:48:53 AM EST
    that Taboo/Decon/Whichever says he didn't get?

    Your Interests (none / 0) (#226)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:12:20 PM EST
    Would have been better served by taking it to email. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, though.

    Were you warned before you were booted? (none / 0) (#209)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:36:51 AM EST
    I'd hope you were given a chance to repent and redeem yourself.  

    Um (none / 0) (#221)
    by lilburro on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:57:22 AM EST
    do you really need to repeat the word coward that many times?  It's not doing your case any favors.

    Well if you violated the rules (none / 0) (#229)
    by lilburro on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:17:39 PM EST
    and were chattering, what else can I say?

    Also, there may be a difference between being called a coward and having one of your actions being labelled cowardly, but it is still aggressive and negative.  I suppose there is also a difference between being labelled a Stalinist, and having one of 'your tactics' being labelled Stalinist.  But it really isn't that big.


    Oh Well (none / 0) (#225)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:05:53 PM EST
     Your fractured pride driven ego seems more important to defend than chilling out and apologizing for pissing TL off.  This is her house and  you are commenting at her pleasure. That you are so mystified, seems rather insincere to me. Over the years, you have seen many warnings like the one above from commenters taunting in a less arrogant way than you have been doing and have done in the past. Most problems are resolved privately by email. It seems silly to thrash about and call TL a coward, you are embarrassing yourself, imo.

    Obviously you have enjoyed TL as you have been around long enough, long enough to not be so shocked that you are treated the same as the rest of us. Some humility would be in order instead.


    Yes But (none / 0) (#232)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:37:10 PM EST
    The thing you are missing is that it is her house, so to speak. Your ability to voice your strong opinions are dependent on her grace, and I believe that she has plenty of it.

    Taking this public, and trying at worst to humiliate TL or at best  to prove her wrong,  is cutting off your nose to spite your face, imo.

    You are fighting yourself and so will lose. It is too bad because it does not have to play out this way. Even though I have disagreed with much of what you say here and the way have said it, it is clear that you have added some good to TL discussions, imo. Throwing a hissy fit and implying that you are standing up on principal seems not only weak but it accomplished nothing, imo.


    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#236)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:23:03 PM EST
    But I am certain that after the nomination, particularly if BHO gets it, most of the new flock of fans will go back to where they came from and TL will become more like it has been in the past. Sorry to hear that you would diminish TL and your participation here as a no loss kind of thing.

    So be it.

    Little is written in stone here regarding your situation, imo, mostly because TL is more tolerant and gracious than most of her commenters. I for one, have great respect for her even when she draws a line that appears unreasonable to me. I always give her the benefit of the doubt, let it go and try to adjust, but different strokes....