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Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:29:21 AM EST
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I hear some people have the day off today. Not me, I'm headed to court. Here's an open thread for you. What's on your minds?

< Bill Richardson to Endorse Obama | Can Clinton Win The Popular Vote? >

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    Friday Open Thread | 240 comments (240 topical)

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    Is that a jelly filled peep? (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:34:37 AM EST
    yum!

    I thought that was supposed (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:38:31 AM EST
    to be a crime scene?

    [ Parent ]
    It is! (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:40:20 AM EST
    A crime that there is no such thing as a jelly filled peep...

    [ Parent ]
    Or... (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:41:58 AM EST
    maybe its not the kind of neighborhood that is safe for jelly filled peeps...mama's keep your jelly filled peeps in at night lest this happens to them

    [ Parent ]
    Peeps gone bad. (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Democratic Cat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:40:42 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Bad peeps, Bad peeps, (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by scribe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:58:27 AM EST
    whatcha gonna do?

    Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

    How anyone could be that cruel to a poor, defenseless peep is just beyond me....

    [ Parent ]

    Planned for the CBS Schedule (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by The Maven on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:44:38 AM EST
    Coming this fall, it's CSI: Peeps!

    Haven't you seen the promos they've been running during college hoops?

    [ Parent ]

    Which peep is the perp peep? (nt) (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:03:14 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Dems? (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Athena on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:06:39 AM EST
    I thought it was a bunch of superdelegates in the back room, deciding which candidate gets eliminated.

    [ Parent ]
    It was suicide (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:15:05 AM EST
    He was a chicken peep stuck in a bunny peep's body...and the world just didn't understand...

    [ Parent ]
    Yellow dog peeps... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:25:55 AM EST
    whoever they are...

    [ Parent ]
    did y'all know (none / 0) (#89)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:27:44 AM EST
    that even acid cannot eat through peep eyes?

    Think about all those eyes just sitting in your stomach...looking.

    LINK

    [ Parent ]

    That's serious torture of peeps there (none / 0) (#106)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:35:00 AM EST
    in those pictures.  Yikes.  Kinda kills the holiday spirit. . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Ah... (none / 0) (#122)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:41:49 AM EST
    I thought the same, and posted to slow...see the time stamp below

    [ Parent ]
    sad (none / 0) (#115)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:15 AM EST
    could never get the peep or Richardson charm, he sort of reminds me of a peep...soft...with no flavor.  Never got the hype, was I missing something?

    [ Parent ]
    I bet Bush (none / 0) (#120)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:41:01 AM EST
    authorized those interrogation "tactics" - liquid nitrogen boarding - boiling water - cigarette burns...has Cheney's fingerprints all over it!

    [ Parent ]
    We've found the killer (none / 0) (#110)
    by tree on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:36:34 AM EST
    over here!

    [ Parent ]
    They make jelly-filled peeps? (none / 0) (#101)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:32:34 AM EST
    I need to get me some of those.  I'm only familar with the standard, totally scrumptious, variety.

    [ Parent ]
    Elvis Costello (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by white n az on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:34:50 AM EST
    What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?

    Is there forensic evidence? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by 0 politico on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:40:12 AM EST
    Or, should we just round up Elmer Fudd?

    No need (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:45:40 AM EST
    I have found the offending party, here.

    [ Parent ]
    I think (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by white n az on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:53:16 AM EST
    it was the woman from 'Roger and Me'

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, one of those bunnies (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by NJDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:41:56 AM EST
    got knocked off, and the others have the Mr. Bill "oh no" look :)

    I think the guilty one is the one (none / 0) (#30)
    by scribe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:02:35 AM EST
    on the left in the picture.

    It has the same "who, me?" look my dog gets when she counter-surfs, steals a loaf of bread and eats it, leaves the wrapper and crumbs in her bed and then acts like nothing - nothing! - happened.

    [ Parent ]

    And the evidence (none / 0) (#73)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:53 AM EST
    goes on for days....

    [ Parent ]
    Yup. (none / 0) (#80)
    by scribe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:24:34 AM EST
    But by then it is far too late.

    [ Parent ]
    It's not race, its sex (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Sunshine on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:42:28 AM EST
    I know Obama grandmother crosses the street and clutches her purse when she see's two black men approaching, but I bet she does the same thing when she see's two white men approaching...  I know I am very aware of when a man is walking behind me even when I don't see him and don't know what color he is....  

    Honey, I'm approaching the phase in my life... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:48:28 AM EST
    ...when I'm just thankful I can still hear the footsteps!

    [ Parent ]
    Yup (none / 0) (#15)
    by Grey on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:51:19 AM EST
    That's what I was saying yesterday, that in the few occasions when I even consider crossing the street or changing direction when I see a bunch of men idling about, it's because I'm a woman.  I sometimes have to consider things, as a woman, that men often don't often have to; that's my reality, too, and I wish Sen. Obama would at least acknowledge that.  


    [ Parent ]
    When I was in my 20s I was a toughie... (none / 0) (#23)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:58:44 AM EST
    ...those were different days of course, but my friends and I were the type of women that answered the catcalls with smack talk. But when I see the abuse that young women take on the street, the level of sexual familiarity that some males seem to think is their right to express to any female they find attractive, it literally sickens me on their behalf and makes me worry that the so-called sexual revolution has just made women more vulnerable. I remember walking around with my daughter when she was just 11 years old at a street fair and she was being hit on by a group young men, young but grown. I yelled at them "for the love of god she's only 11 years old." Alas all that I accomplished was that they then turned their attention to mocking me and my daughter was embarrassed.

    Big sigh. I feel so old all of a sudden.

    [ Parent ]

    When I was in my 20's (none / 0) (#41)
    by stillife on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:07:31 AM EST
    and got hooted at by construction workers, I used to give them the finger.  I was ranting about it one time to a gay male friend and he couldn't understand because he said he'd love the attention!  

    Now I'm too old for all that and it's my daughter's turn.  She pretends to talk on her cellphone when she's walking down the street b/c it's easier to ignore the jerks who try to hit on her.  

    I'm not particularly intimidated by teenage guys, probably b/c I have a 22 year old son and a lot of those baggy-pantsed characters look like he and his friends did a few years ago.  

    [ Parent ]

    I had a similar experience (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:14 AM EST
    while traveling. I was stopped for lunch, and since the scenery was great I was out walking around the restaurant with a camera. A group of men were doing construction on an overpass right there and they sounded off on cue. One of them exposed himself and said, "Hey, honey, take a picture of this!!" I pointed my camera at him, and then lowered it and hollered back "Sorry, it's a zoom lens, not a microscope!!" His friends almost fell off the bridge laughing. He zipped up and disappeared behind some blocks. I bet that's the last time he did that. Teeheehee.

    [ Parent ]
    you want to have a weird conversation (none / 0) (#94)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:30:39 AM EST
    at dinner: ask all your women friends how many of them have been flashed by men.  This happened at a dinner party the other night and all nine of the women present, myself included, had been flashed at some point in their lives.  Six of us had been groped (or almost groped in my case, because I yelled like a banshee) on planes.

    Unbelievable.

    [ Parent ]

    I've been flashed by a few women.... (none / 0) (#114)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:13 AM EST
    at concerts and sporting events...kinda enjoyed it:)  Looking forward to my first groping:)

    Seriously though, thanks for the insight.  You ladies are right, guys don't have to worry about that stuff, at least I don't.

    My survival instincts only kick in like that when there's a cop in my path. I'd imagine the powerless feeling I get when faced with John Law on a dark street is similar to the feelings you guys are describing.

    [ Parent ]

    I've been flashed and groped (none / 0) (#119)
    by stillife on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:58 AM EST
    (Not at the same time.)  It's just one of those things that women deal with every day.  

    I yelled at the groper and he scurried off the El train at the next stop.  

    [ Parent ]

    Yep (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:43:18 AM EST
    flashed on a bus, groped on an elevator.

    I learned, at long last, to be confrontational about it.  The next time I got a whistle, I got in the guy's face and told him we don't act that way in my neighborhood, as it was at a gas station and he had out-of-state plates.  And the next time I got a public groping, I turned on the guy and got public about it myself.  

    Never saw a guy -- business suit, briefcase, and all -- get such a scared look and scuttle away so fast.  I think he must have spread the word about me with on altperv.net or something, as I haven't been bothered since.  I would attribute it to my graceful aging, but pervs bother women of any age.

    [ Parent ]

    Yep (none / 0) (#235)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:08:34 PM EST
    it's a guy thing. Find out how many of your male friends have been groped or, likely, more, by older guys when they were kids.

    Many years ago when I first moved to LA me and my now wife and another girl went out to explore LA and find a good bar on a Fri night, and we found a whole strip of very lively looking joints on Santa Monica Blvd. in W. Hollywood.

    So we parked the car and walked to the area. As we walked many of the guys on the sidewalks whistled and hollered.

    I complimented the girls on their hotness and they were kind of embarrassed by the attention but flattered nonetheless.

    When we got to the first bar, and saw that every single person inside was male, we realized what was going on...

    That said, it's not only guys, in my late teens in a bar in Houston, a girl walked up to me and grabbed my joint. Too bad I had absolutely no rap at that age.

    [ Parent ]

    why (none / 0) (#237)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:29:22 PM EST
    does this NEVER happen to me?
    I protest.

    [ Parent ]
    For the record, it certainly never happens to me (none / 0) (#239)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:57:04 PM EST
    anymore...

    [ Parent ]
    Even Though (none / 0) (#238)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:36:14 PM EST
    Your reaction seems typical, some women enjoy the attention. I used to think that those who appeared to have little problem with the catcalls and whistles were morons. Then I thought it must be cultural, something really foreign to my world view. But one day a well educated friend of mine from Berkeley revealed to me that one of the things she liked about NYC was being whistled at, etc.

    I was astounded, shocked and asked her if she was nuts. She said that she liked the attention once in a while because in Berkeley everyone was so PC that she could walk around naked and everyone would act as if she was not even there.

    Not typical but it did make me think out of the box for a minute.

    [ Parent ]

    Hard for me to understand, and not (none / 0) (#240)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:51:22 PM EST
    what I've read about most women's preferences.

    So the thing for men to do, it would seem, is to presume that most women do not appreciate it -- rather than presume that most women do.  That is, those men who even think of the women as humans whose preferences matter.

    [ Parent ]

    It Must Work (none / 0) (#242)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:29:38 PM EST
    Sometimes or the men would stop doing it. And I have seen the macho facade fall off in the bat of an eye lash when the offending man's partner shows up.  I think our mating rituals and dominance issues are more complex than meets the eye. Power is not always where it seems to be. And I am not justifying sexist behavior, just pointing out that it is more useful to examine power dynamics irrespective of gender and race, before coming to a conclusion about what is going on in a given situation.

    I always laugh when some of my female german friends tell me that they had to go to Italy as a teen to learn about sex. Not because the Italian men were special but because they could not have sex in their village without everyone finding out about it.

    [ Parent ]

    Look, "it must work sometimes" (none / 0) (#243)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:11:26 PM EST
    does not contradict anything above, agreed.

    It just makes any guy who would go by this as his credo a boor and a creep.

    Now, if that's a guy's preference as to what he wants to be, I don't waste my time on him.  Or this.

    [ Parent ]

    Have a great day Jeralyn.... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:46:07 AM EST
    ...hope you get a chance to relax sometime this weekend!

    Voting Hillary is a once in a lifetime opportunity (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by catfish on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:54:47 AM EST
    Because within her lifetime she faced discrimination for being a woman.

    She could not apply to Yale for undergrad - they did not accept women. She wrote to NASA as a 14-year-old asking what it takes to work there - only to be told she had to be a boy.

    Her mother was born before women had the right to vote.

    If we wait, the first female president will not have experienced these things in her own lifetime.

    Take that, Bill Richardson!

    Furthermore, Hillary is a descendant (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:59:49 AM EST
    of women, as well! She has womanosity in her blood!

    [ Parent ]
    but by some (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:04:07 AM EST
    she's been accused of being either "too womanly" or "not womanly enough."  

    Interestingly enough, despite reports to the contrary, Hillary didn't disown her grandmother--who was a woman.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, i'm not sure she has anything but (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:09:33 AM EST
    white ancestors. This looks like proof of prejudice on Hillary's part.

    [ Parent ]
    OH, and she's (none / 0) (#112)
    by Robo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:37:42 AM EST
    blond.  Further proof of prejudice, particularly if she purposely made herself blond.

    [ Parent ]
    Grandma D? (none / 0) (#108)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:35:44 AM EST
    Apparently Grandma D was a real...uh...spitfire.  At least from the books I'm reading.  Hill's mom, Dorothy, didn't like the man she married later on (partly because he was Jewish, but that's another thing I'm reading about...both Dorothy and Della (I believe that was her name) devolved into anti-Semitic remarks when they were mad at him, but Rosenberg was a very nice guy).

    Dorothy was apparently a "mean" woman towards her husband and her mother/stepfather.  And I'm not reading much good stuff about Hugh Rodham, either.  Ah well.  :\

    [ Parent ]

    I think Obamas (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:56:10 AM EST
    "typical white person" remark is going to get almost as much play as Pastor Wright.
    and could do almost as much damage.  it was a stupid clueless thing to say that says so much about the inner workings of the mans mind.
    it is sticking with people.
    It's not good for Obama ... (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:02:17 AM EST
    really hard to spin that comment.  It didn't even sound like he'd realized what he'd just said.

    Not the story he wanted going into the weekend.

    [ Parent ]

    wha? where? really? n/t (none / 0) (#36)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:05:17 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Beyond Stupid (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:33:26 AM EST
    Didn't much care for Obama repeatedly sacrificing his Grandma for his own political gains to begin with. This is a line we would just not cross in my family and I'm sure my family is not unique. This new twist trying to justify his use of Grannie just makes me even madder still.

    Labeling anyone who doesn't vote for Obama as a racist is IMO going to backfire big time.

    [ Parent ]

    Is it getting play on TV? (none / 0) (#38)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:05:39 AM EST
    It's on the level of a campaign ending gaffe.
    For my money, though, Obama's campaign SHOULD have been over when he said with a straight face that he's more qualified to conduct foreign policy because he spent four years in elementary school in Indonesia.


    [ Parent ]
    Yes it is... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:07:29 AM EST
    ..even on MSNBC they are calling it a gaffe on Obama camp. Even while they are shilling that Hillary "might" be behind the passport snooping and that the Richardson endorsement is a "slap in the face" to Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, I put MSNBC on this morning ... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:11:25 AM EST
    to hear their spin. They best they could come up with was he meant a "typical white woman of her generation" which really isn't a lot better.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Has Ceded MI And FL Voters To McCain (none / 0) (#211)
    by MO Blue on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:37:56 AM EST
    and now he has IMO given him a firm lock on the senior vote as well. The majority of seniors were not real impressed with Obama to begin with and this will not help them change their minds.

    [ Parent ]
    Typical White Person Story (none / 0) (#43)
    by Athena on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:09:57 AM EST
    Yes - the remark has been played and analyzed already several times today on MSNBC and FOX (don't know about CNN).  It really seems to have hit a nerve.  And it's being characterized as a gaffe, or a mistake by Obama that will cost him - again.

    [ Parent ]
    It's not a horrible remark, of course. (none / 0) (#48)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:12:38 AM EST
    What really sticks out though is that this is exactly the sort of thing Hillary supporters have been crucified for.
    Turnabout is definitely called for over this!

    [ Parent ]
    actually (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:14:42 AM EST
    I think it IS a pretty horrible remark.
    I would just say try saying the reverse around your home or office and see what happens.
    try it.


    [ Parent ]
    Well, i'm not going to struggle to defend it.. (none / 0) (#67)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:19:16 AM EST
    :)

    [ Parent ]
    honestly (none / 0) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:20:32 AM EST
    I defended Wright but this is really the very definition of a racist comment.
    there is no was to spin it.


    [ Parent ]
    In the context of knowing about his (none / 0) (#79)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:24:07 AM EST
    other grandparents, it's even more telling:
    link

    [ Parent ]
    I would say (none / 0) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:24:50 AM EST
    that in a vacuum it would not be much of a big deal.
    we dont live in a vacuum and it is being played and replayed against the backdrop of the last weeks stories.
    it is one of those stories that "plays into the prevailing story line".
    you know, like Hillary will do anything to win.


    [ Parent ]
    And what makes it ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:25:00 AM EST
    especially bad politically is it follows on the heels of the Wright business. It now looks like he "listened" more than he suggested.

    I'm super forgiving of candidate misstatements because these guys talk all day.  But I cannot imagine how that comment got from brain to lips.

    [ Parent ]

    what makes it bad (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:41:15 AM EST
    is Mr. Unity just gave a "historic" speech on race condemning such divisive comments.

    [ Parent ]
    Right... (none / 0) (#131)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:44:39 AM EST
    so he either misspoke in the speech, or misspoke a day  later...either way...its a gaffe

    [ Parent ]
    as one of those (none / 0) (#105)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:34:59 AM EST
    "typical white women" to whom he prefers, I resent being lumped in and labelled a racist.  Let's be clear that Obama is stating that very thing by implication: his grandmother, who said racist things and was frightened by a black man who tried to mug her on the street, is a racist, and she is a typical white woman, ergo...

    [ Parent ]
    Right, I agree completely (none / 0) (#133)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:45:50 AM EST
    lets be fair though...that was his implied message...he never straight out said it...

    [ Parent ]
    And to be clear... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:47:13 AM EST
    I am not saying you didn't say that, I was posting merely as a reminder about the entire discussion

    (sorry for not being more clear)

    [ Parent ]

    he said (none / 0) (#188)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:19:22 AM EST
    she was a typical white person who feared black people.
    what, exactly, is not "straight out" about that?

    [ Parent ]
    That was the implication (none / 0) (#210)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:37:54 AM EST
    not the verbiage...he's guilty of the implication, but he didn't say the words...

    Yes yes, we both know diaries on certain blogs will use that as his defense...but the implication is clear...I just think it is important that we debate with accurate linguistics so that later on down the road someone won't try to pull our entire argument away by saying "You said he said this, but he NEVER 'SAID' it"...

    [ Parent ]

    Bill and Hillary (none / 0) (#124)
    by Robo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:42:46 AM EST
    have been crucified for much less.  I'm sure the Obama spin with trivialize this, but it is difficult being able to do so when they twisted themselves into pretzels to turn "fairy tale" and "it took Lyndon Johnson and MLK" into absolute proof of racism.

    [ Parent ]
    Leader (none / 0) (#96)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:31:09 AM EST
    How will it feel if the president dismisses the majority of Americans into the "typical white person" pile heap.  

    Now that is unity, but since none of you people are in the creative class you don't get the new unity, diminish everyone in the same way that the society diminishes minorities so we are all unified.  Or something like that....

    [ Parent ]

    This is really a shame (none / 0) (#143)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:51:59 AM EST
    I actually have a lot of sympathy for Obama on this...

    He is in a huge hole, dug not by his own doing, and one in which there is NO right answer...none...

    He gives a speech that under normal circumstances would be a great beginning to an important conversation...but under current context is purely a political play...his expectations have been raised so high that he can only under achieve on achievements even when he rhetorically soars...and he is finally getting put under a (low powered) microscope which he and his team appear utterly unprepared for...

    I took offense at the harsh treatment of Hillary, and I don't relish in Obama's discomfort...

    With that said, this will be a real test for him, and so far he isn't even "barely passing"

    [ Parent ]

    Hole...digging (none / 0) (#152)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:56:32 AM EST
    I think he helped to dig the hole with a great deal of help from Axelrod.  They played the race game and it came back to bite them.  

    [ Parent ]
    Egh (none / 0) (#180)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:14:56 AM EST
    Obama has dug some holes on race, but race is a tangential issue with this Wright controversy, the media (and us to some degree on the nets) have mislabeled it race...but the rub is about Wright's anti-American offensive commentary...

    [ Parent ]
    Albeit Obama is probably the reason (none / 0) (#186)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:17:29 AM EST
    race is NOW the focus because of his speech with which he helped the media narrative drive hard to race...

    And as I posted below, he definitely has dug his hole deeper with comments like "typical white"

    His explanation on LKL helped put the remark in context, and walk it back a bit, but like John Cole yesterday...he said what he said, regardless of the fact that he later walked it back...I agree

    [ Parent ]

    I honestly dont see how you can say (none / 0) (#154)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:57:36 AM EST
    its "not of his own doing"
    what about this is not of his own doing.
    even the hole.  he just keeps digging.


    [ Parent ]
    I am specifically refering to (none / 0) (#173)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:12:18 AM EST
    the catalyst for this discussion which is Wright...Wright's words are obviously a hole for Obama, that Obama did not dig himself...there can be tangential arguments made about "Obama should have walked out" etc...but it all boils down to the same thing, Wright is the issue not Obama, it is Obama's association with Wright that therefore gives Obama an issue, but the root of the issue is Wright, not Obama.

    I also said that there is no right answer...he cannot get out of the hole on this issue, for his campaign the best case scenario is the media moving on (hence the passport issue the campaign was pushing last night, the release of the Clinton/Wright photo etc...they are grasping at straws to move the story)...so yes, the digging and digging is his (and his campaign and surrogate's ill advised flailing about in this metaphorical hole in which we find him)

    [ Parent ]

    I just disagree (none / 0) (#182)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:15:50 AM EST
    I dont think the issue is Wright. I think the issues are judgment, honesty, trust, religion and leadership.  in about that order.
    Wright is prism through which to view Obama.  he is no longer the issue.


    [ Parent ]
    And (none / 0) (#184)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:16:55 AM EST
    it is completely of his own doing.  he was not tied in the pew.

    [ Parent ]
    this isn't correct (none / 0) (#187)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:19:21 AM EST
    Wright is wright...Obama is Obama...sure, shame on Obama for not walking out...but its not Obama's word that are at issue...

    [ Parent ]
    Obama's word that are at issue (none / 0) (#191)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:21:20 AM EST
    wrong again.  Wright did not say "typical white person" or maybe he did but we dont know that.
    but as far as Wright you are correct.
    its not his words that are now the issue.  it is Obamas judgment and honesty.


    [ Parent ]
    Agree (none / 0) (#195)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:24:21 AM EST
    but I think you're refering to issues branch off of the singular, whereas I am solely discussing the singular...

    we're in agreement on much of this, see my response above (comment # 192)

    [ Parent ]

    sorry didnt mean to push (none / 0) (#203)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:31:42 AM EST
    I more or less agree
    but
    Wright was the grenade that blew open the protective media shell.
    he was what brought all this on.  in that sense you are correct.
    but I disagree that this is not Obamas doing.
    he knew this was coming.  or if he was so stupid he did not he REALLY has no business being president.
    he knew this was out there and his lame response is to go on national teevee and tell us his grandmother was a typical racist white woman os he gets it?
    it doesnt get much more amature hour than that.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course, Obama knew this was coming (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:44:06 AM EST
    because the "controversial" words of Wright were the reason that Obama, at the last minute, cancelled Wright speaking at Obama's campaign kickoff event.

    More than a year ago.

    And in all the time since, this was the best defense Obama could muster?  He cannot handle the GE.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with you about this (none / 0) (#192)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:21:49 AM EST
    You are speaking in the macro...I am speaking about the micro...I think you are right on these as issues raised by this singular issue (upon which I am focusing, and these others branch from)

    On the macro we agree, on the micro we see things differently, but defiantly an interesting perspective you and Stella have, and a great topic for debate :)


    [ Parent ]

    sorry to drill (none / 0) (#193)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:23:45 AM EST
    but I am really sick of the excuses being made for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    No worries (none / 0) (#196)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:25:46 AM EST
    I am defiantly not a practices of Obama apologetics...(I think my record speaks for itself)

    [ Parent ]
    Nor a good at proofreading (none / 0) (#198)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:26:24 AM EST
    that should have read "Definitely not a practicer...)

    [ Parent ]
    It severely undermines his contention (none / 0) (#47)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:12:30 AM EST
    that he disagrees with Wright since this statement leaves one with the impression that Barack Obama has some ideas about white people as well.

    I am not personally offended by Wright or Obama's association with Wright, but I have to say, this statement bothers me. I have been trying to come up with a plausible "what Obama meant" explanation and I am really at a loss.

    [ Parent ]

    If you knew about the racial attitudes of the (none / 0) (#52)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:13:39 AM EST
    OTHER side of his family, you might understand better. Apparently one is not allowed to discuss these facts on TL though.

    [ Parent ]
    What, we're not (none / 0) (#111)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:37:26 AM EST
    supposed to discuss what Obama wrote in Dreams from my Father?  ?

    [ Parent ]
    My view (none / 0) (#146)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:53:36 AM EST
    I feel that he was getting some heat for implying grandma was a racist.  So he was trying to back away from that by saying, "oh it's not that she's bad, this is just a common view among white people."  Which of course, simply offends a whole new bunch of folks.

    [ Parent ]
    So in trying to say she's not (none / 0) (#161)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:01:15 AM EST
    that much of a racist, he said all -- or at least "typical" -- whites are racists?

    [ Parent ]
    ummm... yes? (none / 0) (#219)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:54:18 AM EST
    N/t

    [ Parent ]
    Of course (none / 0) (#212)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:38:32 AM EST
    Of course he has ideas about white people. He's half-white (unless you believe in the "one drop" rule). He was raised by a white mother and two white grandparents.

    And it's true that white people generally do often feel fear at the presence of black people in public spaces. Not everyone, not in every place, not every time. A few years ago I was talking about this very issue with a coworker, about white people who fear black people. He told me about how living in a "liberal" city like San Francisco didn't stop people being suspicious of him, especially if he were in the "wrong" neighborhood. Police would invariably be called and the cops would routinely roust him for being in the wrong place. That mistreatment was based on fear of black men. Maybe it's not so bad now but it still exists.

    My friend said that in some neighborhoods you'd be a fool not to be cautious if you saw a group of young men coming in your direction, no matter what the color.

    The ultimate point is that the more segregated your life is, the more likely that that fear is there. And, I might add, the more likely you won't admit that fear.


    [ Parent ]

    so what are you saying exactly (none / 0) (#214)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:40:27 AM EST
    that typical white people should be afraid of typical black people.
    sorry I dont buy it.


    [ Parent ]
    Please don't insult my intelligence (none / 0) (#228)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:15:52 PM EST
    Obama's comment is the very definition of prejudice, attributing the negative actions of some to the inherent character of the whole. I am well aware that racism exists, but that in no way justifies his sentiment, particularly as a unity candidate.

    Barack Obama urges us to consider the context of Jeremiah Wright's remarks and avoid making a caricature of the man, yet he contends that Hillary exhibits questionable judgement because of one vote and is happy to reinforce the divisive and do-or-say-anything-to-win narratives. He then employs a statement like "typical white person."  

    I don't find the hypocrisy at all transcendent.

    [ Parent ]

    So you're saying that Obama is not (none / 0) (#233)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:40:54 PM EST
    a "typical black person."  And you don't see that it's racist to say that, too.  Jeesh.

    [ Parent ]
    What comment? (none / 0) (#54)
    by kenosharick on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:14:21 AM EST
    I am a news junkie and have no idea what you are talking about. Please fill me in.

    [ Parent ]
    google (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:16:04 AM EST
    Results 1 - 10 of about 11,000 for Obama "typical white person"

    [ Parent ]
    It does say a lot about the workings (none / 0) (#103)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:32:57 AM EST
    I mean, it says that underneath the cool unity exterior might lie another hidden agenda. But, Jeralyn was not happy about the open thread yesterday. So maybe we should just talk about peeps. Ha and a Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    I used to read Wonkette (none / 0) (#199)
    by zyx on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:28:56 AM EST
    but they are too gaga about Obama to be funny any more.

    Read some yesterday though.  ONE good comment:  "the woman who crosses the road when she sees a black man coming is a stereotype".  Lose that dumb imagery, please!

    [ Parent ]

    And I'm sure they'll have a photo (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by NJDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:58:03 AM EST
    of Bill Clinton and that killer duck on the MSM tonight! :)

    What an amateurish move by the BO camp.  I think it's appropriate to compare how the two candidates  do under pressure in order to determine who would be best in the GE.  In this contest, HRC wins hands down.    

    Funniest line (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Robo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:52:09 AM EST
    I've seen about it:  "Do they also have a photo of Bill socializing with the racist grandmother?"

    [ Parent ]
    amateurish (none / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:01:55 AM EST
    and being roundly dismissed and made jokes about on the MSM.
    havent seen it presented once with a straight face.


    [ Parent ]
    Yup, even Chuck Todd ... (none / 0) (#49)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:13:17 AM EST
    called it "amateur hour."

    [ Parent ]
    That is a creepy peep (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Lil on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:16:46 AM EST
    I have been holding back watching this whole race/wright/Obama thing unfold. Now I just want to say the thought of having to defend Obama through Nov. 4th makes me sick and exhausted just thinking about it. I can't even imagine the conversation with family and friends trying to convince them that Obama will make a better president than McCain. They won't even hear it (except for my black friends, who I don't need to defend Obama to). I am for Hillary, but always thought we'd be ok with Obama. Based on what I've heard from whites in my circle, he is done and will not win in the GE. That just makes me sick. I remember defending Kerry against distortions and how difficult that was; I'm not sure I have the energy to do that again in this case, with such dismal chances of Obama winning.  Please convince me Hillary can pull this out, because Obama will lose to McCain.

    At this point all that Obama will get from me... (none / 0) (#78)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:23:01 AM EST
    ...is my vote. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. Will he be able to change that? Maybe, but as I told my husband, who ardently supports Obama, he has to at least try. And at this point I don't see any attempt whatsoever from the Obama camp to win my vote as a Latina feminist. He assumes he has it, and well, yes he has if he is the Democratic nominee. But if he is also assuming that he has my enthusiastic support, my precious volunteer hours phonebanking, canvassing, etc..then no.

    [ Parent ]
    If Obama gets the nom (none / 0) (#118)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:56 AM EST
    Then I expect him to grovel for my vote and my support.

    He wrote it himself.
    He said it himself.
    Then he repeated it on subsequent interview(s)!

    If it was someone on Hillary's staff, the Obama suppoorters would be demanding they be fired.  What's Obama going to do, fire himself?  

    [ Parent ]

    Does a politician care (none / 0) (#127)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:44:03 AM EST
    is they have your support?  I kind of think they just want the vote and they'll get it any way they can.  Both candidates are relying on Dems being loyal for November.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama is on the attack (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:18:50 AM EST
    http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/obama_campaign_attacks_hillary.php

    Right, SHE is the untrustworthy one (none / 0) (#116)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:22 AM EST
    when HE is the one who said

    I didn't know about Wright's comments
    Wait a minute, I did know, sorry
    Well, I really didn't know about Wright's comments

    in succession within the past week.  And let's not forget the NAFTA b.s.

    Please.  Guh.

    [ Parent ]

    Skulking RCP and Politico (none / 0) (#136)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:49:28 AM EST
    RCP has some good articles up.  I was at Politico where they had quotes from Plouffe too.  My favorite.... she has 'a real character gap.'  So who will say anything to win?

    Along with Obama's response to Larry King's question of whether Obama would have Clinton as a VP... uh, uh, she's SMART (he didn't say it in a positive way.)

    I'm not sure what the Obama camp is up to.  The odd comebacks etc.  I don't think the Richardson endorsement is going to be enough to get the media turned around even with CNN's help.

    [ Parent ]

    Kitchen sink strategy? (none / 0) (#151)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:56:02 AM EST
    I notice that a number of the "claims" have already been debunked as well (thinking specifically of NAFTA and the 60 Minutes interview).

    Also - does this count as forwarding Right Wing frames?

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know who's to blame for that crime scene (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by ChrisO on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:19:11 AM EST
    but don't go blaming me or my peeps.

    The Bill Clinton - Wright photo (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by blogtopus on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:26:03 AM EST
    Have you even seen that photo, it's up at Taylor Marsh's place. Bill isn't even talking to Wright! He's looking away and chatting with someone else while shaking Wright's hand.

    Was that a snub or a premonition?

    I have seen it (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:28:57 AM EST
    its what desperation looks like

    [ Parent ]
    If it was a snub.... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Maria Garcia</