home

Late Night: All Day and All of the Night

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:41:52 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

The Kinks. All day and all of the night. In recognition of the incessant news coverage today and tonight of Barack Obama's speech. Enough already.

This is an open thread.

< Blogger Appreciation Day | Star Witness Testifies in Rezko Trial >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Late Night: All Day and All of the Night | 151 comments (151 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment

    What do you all think of HRC (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by NJDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:48:32 PM EST
    going to MI tomorrow?  

    WAPO needs a fact checker (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:20:55 PM EST
    It reports Hillary is going to MI and she was the only Dem not to take her name off the ballot.  Sloppy and false.  I just posted a comment to the article,

    Fact check please.

    Clinton was the not the only Democrat who didn't remove his or her name off the ballot after the state bumped the primary date.

    Chris Dodd, Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich were also on the ballot. (Kucinich tried to remove himself but didn't get his request in on time. )

    Hillary won 55% of the vote. Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel won 5% of the vote. 40% were uncommmitted. Results are here.

    I hope they correct it.

    Parent

    Here's a link to NYT blog post. (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:09:22 PM EST
    I only saw one comment favorable to Clinton campaign.

    NYT

    Parent

    Sheesh (none / 0) (#23)
    by zyx on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:18:23 PM EST
    I read a bunch of the comments.

    Reminds me of when Ron Paul was still running and his supporters were all over the intertubes.  And how did that work out for Ron Paul?

    (I had some friends who lived a few houses from some people who had a Ron Paul sign that was almost bigger than their yard--it was, um, very big.  I suppose they will write in his name when we have our primary--in May.)

    Parent

    They Get More Favorable (none / 0) (#138)
    by flashman on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:11:37 AM EST
    They get more favorable as you read down the list.  Seems Obama's supporters get to the party earlier.

    Parent
    It's great -- EVERY Dem leader ought to go (none / 0) (#18)
    by Cream City on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:12:04 PM EST
    to these states to try to fix this mess and let the FL and MI Dems know that they're being heard.

    But only Clinton is going -- not Obama, not dozens of other Senators, not many more dozens of others in Congress, not Dean, not Brazile.  So Michiganders will know who cared that their votes count.  Good.

    Parent

    I think Obama (none / 0) (#66)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:11:12 AM EST
    was in FL this week for a fundraiser.  Is Clinton speaking or is she just raising moolah?

    Parent
    Town Hall (none / 0) (#81)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:49:02 AM EST
    She is doing a town hall meeting on 'Solutions for America'.

    I knew that POTUS '08 XM channel would come in handy some day!

    Parent

    thanks (none / 0) (#83)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:53:53 AM EST
    any idea when the debate is going to be, and whether or not Clinton accepted the second one?

    Parent
    Politically vindictive? (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Chimster on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:55:22 PM EST
    One thing that has always been a roadblock for me in joining the Obama throng was his desire to reach across the aisle and work together with Republicans. Unity. Bah... What I really want is a president that will undo all of the damage that has been inflicted upon this country over the past eight years under Bush. I don't want to compromise with Republicans under any circumstance. I want the next four years to be just as partisan as the last eight, only with a Democratic outcome.

    After 4 years of Democratic rule, returning the US to normal and becoming a respected leader in the world, then I'd be supportive to the idea of unity. But right now I feel that unity is not a compromise that I'm willing to take. This is one of the larger reasons I want Hillary in the White House this November.

    An issue for me too (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Virginian on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:06:31 PM EST
    If George Bush took us 10 steps backwards, compromising with his supporters will only get us 5 steps forward (if that) when we need 20...

    I don't think Obama can right the ship...

    Parent

    Reach across the aisle? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Chimster on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:12:52 PM EST
    Only if I plan on throttling someone.  
    :^)

    Parent
    I (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by tek on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:10:03 AM EST
    still don't see how he's going to bring about unity when he keeps attacking his own party.  But, that's just me.

    Parent
    Not to worry (none / 0) (#76)
    by faux facsimile on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:42:05 AM EST
    Unlike Obama, the only thing Clinton is like to work with Republicans on is banning flag burning.

    Parent
    advocacy of partisanship (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by noholib on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:21:23 PM EST
    I agree.  That's why I originally supported Edwards, then turned to Clinton--both proud fighting Dems.  I want a Democratic candidate who will tell it plainly--how Republican economic policies have been destroying this country and the middle class since the days of Reagan.  I don't want a Democratic candidate who can't find a villain in the piece except to complain about "all the same-old Washington politicians." Though unity sounds like a noble goal, in fact when people invoke unity, they are often obscuring real differences.  After these particularly damaging eight Bush-Cheney or Cheney-Bush years, I really don't want to be told that Democrats should play nice with Republicans and all hold hands.  Let's hear a real critique of Republican policies and values and a real defense of liberal and Democratic values.  What decided my vote for Clinton in early February was my disgust with Obama for copying Republican Harry-and-Louise inspired ads against Clinton's universal health care plans. That really crossed a line for me.  Let the Republicans make their own arguments. Why should the Democratic candidate sound like Republican-lite on issues such as health care and social security.  Exactly which Republicans are standing in line to "compromise" with Democrats?  I'm not interested in "compromise" which is more like unilateral disarmament to the Republican agenda.

    Parent
    That's been one of my reservations about (none / 0) (#19)
    by litigatormom on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:12:27 PM EST
    Obama too.  To be fair, he did throw one line in today's speech that acknowledged the link between Reagan's victory and his appeals to racism through criticisms of busing and affirmative action.  That acknowledgment was sadly missing when he was interviewed by a Nevada newspaper prior to the Nevada caucus. Back then, Reagan was a transformational optimist who got people excited about entrepreneurship!

    Perhaps its simply been too long since "bipartisanship" has been a euphemism for "capitulation."  But if we get a Democratic president, AND a significant majority in both the House and the Senate, I really don't want to let the GOP hold up the daunting task of beginning to deal with the consequences of Bush's Reign of Terror.

    Parent

    what I don't understand (none / 0) (#67)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:14:33 AM EST
    is how it is that when the dems were in the minority, they couldn't do jack, but now that the repubs are in the minority, they are managing to hold up all kinds of crap.

    Is it because they are willing to go places and do things that the dems aren't?  Because I, for one, am sick of being in the wimpy party.  But I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

    Parent

    Kathy - the key difference is that (none / 0) (#89)
    by JoeA on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:13:18 AM EST
    there is still a Republican in the White House,  who has suddenly found his veto pen.

    Also Democrats in congress have been as you say wimpy,  hopefully with an expanded working majority and a Democrat in the White House they will grow a pair and be able to work around the Blue Dogs.

    Parent

    "Out of Iraq Caucus" supports Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by BlueMerlin on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:07:45 PM EST
    Grouped founded & chaired by Maxine Waters.  

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Out_of_Iraq_Congressional_Caucus

    Statement, in part:

    "We believe there is no higher priority for the next president of the United States than ending this war, and we believe there is no one better prepared and more committed to bringing this war to a responsible conclusion than Hillary Clinton."

    Now that BTD is convinced (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:27:39 PM EST
    his candidate has the nomination locked up, I wish BTD would address this group's goals.  Digby is doing so.

    Parent
    Clinton's Iraq comments (none / 0) (#87)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:04:48 AM EST
    Her Iraq comments and press conference after the Obama speech showed her at her best on getting out of Iraq.  Just wish it had happened on another day so it got more attention. I'm glad this group took notice however.

    Parent
    My take on today's speech (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by white n az on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:17:26 PM EST
    tried to post it as a comment on Suburban Guerrilla but couldn't seem to get that done...

    I sat there and was left empty. It just didn't resonate anything that I didn't already feel myself and was simply left that nothing within the speech changed how I felt.

    First, the reference to Ferraro was worse than bad...Ferraro simply was correct, the media covered the woman and the black man. The white male candidates got no fair coverage and were quickly pushed aside. Obama was lucky he was the black candidate, Clinton was lucky that she was the woman candidate with the added plus of being the wife of a popular ex-president. To equate some of the things that Wright said to Ferraro is simply misses the point. Wright's words were filled with rage, not that I want to dismiss his rage. Ferraro's words were filled with disappointment. Obama's attempt to equate the two were flat wrong.

    Second, I sense that this his attempt to designate a new Obama rule, only he can make racial statements and news media, surrogates, etc. are not empowered to do so. I'm sorry but there are a lot of people including white people eminently capable, qualified and entitled to comment about the racial issues still facing America and it doesn't come to an end by virtue of Obama saying that it does.

    Third, I really wasn't worked up about Wrights sermons in the first place but of course, it was the potential impact of that on white America that motivated this speech. Damage control...the premise was awkward from the beginning. Wright wasn't the problem and it simply wasn't reasonable to think that he could get through a presidential primary without a discussion about race but suddenly now, he wants to discuss race...damage control. But for the man who asserts words matter, Barack Obama is now saying that Wrights' words shouldn't matter to Americans. Obama says yes, he has heard Jeremiah Wright speak of his angst but this is his friend and words matter.

    Lastly, it is almost as though blacks are the only segment of this country that is suffered upon...as if the fact that women make 73% on the dollar for doing the same job isn't an issue. In fact, he doesn't even recognize that the gender issue is out there at all. He doesn't seem to see the forest for the trees.

    That said, if he gets past Hillary, he gets my vote

    He gets my vote, and I daresay the vote of (none / 0) (#34)
    by Joelarama on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:39:52 PM EST
    everyone here, if he is the nominee.

    What is disturbing to me is the number of mostly older, white (some gay, some straight) Democrats who have told be in the past few days they will not vote for Obama.  Some (including my parents) have mentioned voting for McCain.

    All of this has to do with Wright.  This is a real, real problem if Obama is the nominee, and I don't get the feeling this speech will fix it, though I'll keep my ears open this week.  

    That video of Wright's sermon will be very hard for people to forget.  

    Parent

    Better have a talk with your parents again (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Chimster on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:48:12 PM EST
    I may not be Obama's biggest fan, but to vote for McCain in spite of Obama seems counterproductive. Maybe you should suggest to the folks to stay home on election day in protest instead of voting for the old timer. Nothing good will come from that.

    Parent
    My parents aren't the issue. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Joelarama on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:54:40 AM EST
    I can try to talk them down.  It's Democrats -- indeed many Americans -- like them who are deeply offended by Rev. Wright, who view it as hate speech, who question Obama's judgment, and for whom a single speech will not wipe away the video footage of Wright shouting "God Damn America."

    I don't agree that it is "hate speech."  But this is how people react.  And they cannot simply dismissed as racists (indeed they are not).  It's a fact that must be dealt with.

    Parent

    My take (5.00 / 4) (#100)
    by kayla on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:51:39 AM EST
    I'm black and even my aunt is thinking about voting for McCain.  There are black people who are offended by Wright, and what I and many other people in my family perceive as race-baiting from the Obama camp.

    I didn't understand completely what Obama meant when he said disavowing Wright is like disavowing the black community.  My parents, aunts, and uncles are all southern blacks who have been hurt by racism tremendously and who are about the Reverend's age, but none of them have the same reaction that Rev. Wright has and the black church that I grew up in wasn't conducted that way.  The presentation was similar, the standing up and cheering and clapping, the passionate pastor preaching out to us while others pat him on the back, encouraging him to go further.  But the subject material was very very different.  There was no evil rich white man talk that I can remember.  There was certainly talk of rising above during times of struggle by trusting in the Lord's word.  But nothing that political and angsty.

    That being said, I actually understand what Obama meant when he said that Wright was like his uncle.  Black churches are extremely social.  I decided I was agnostic about 6 years ago when I was 14 and I still go to church on occasion.  Those people are my family.  The singing, preaching to each other, having potlucks and barbecues together, growing up together, creates a strong bond.  One of the choir singers was my pre-school teacher.  It's hard to reject those people, my family, even if I'm not sure there's a God.  I do believe that Obama loves his pastor despite his anger.  I don't carry that anger with me and I don't know any blacks who do to that degree, but I understand the Reverend's larger point.  Government could do more for not only the black community, but urban and poor communities as a whole.  And I think Wright is that voice that many African Americans can't find just anywhere.  They might not really believe that the government is willing to plant WMD in order to justify war or any of his other controversial statements, but sometimes extreme views such as that are refreshing.  It's frustrating when you feel like your voice isn't being heard.  I think for many people, Wright is that voice.  I don't agree with Wright completely, but as strange as it sounds, it's comforting that there is a bold voice out there that speaks out about oppression, even if it seems a little "out there" to me.

    By the way, this is my first post here.  And I just want to say that I love the site.  It's really one of maybe... three political blogs I visit on a regular basis.

    Parent

    Thanks for the comments and your insight. (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:07:40 AM EST


    Parent
    Welcome (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:24:32 PM EST
    Great to hear your voice. And I hope that you can have some influence over your aunt so that she doesn't vote for McCain, that is unless she is a die hard Republican. As much as Obama (or Wright) may not represent your or your aunt's community, I can't imagine McCain representing anyone but the community of die hard war loving Republicans and that mentality is obviously color blind.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#154)
    by kayla on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:42:37 PM EST
    I think most of the time when people say they're planning on voting for McCain, it's just an expression of frustration.  I'm confident that we'll all come together in the end.

    Parent
    Me Too (none / 0) (#155)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:47:55 PM EST
    I guess that a dem uttering the phrase 'I'm voting for McCain' is akin to cursing when you stub your toe.

    Parent
    If you care to respond, was your Dad ever (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:57:34 AM EST
    active duty military?  Are your parents religious?  

    Parent
    Not military. They're Southern liberals. (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Joelarama on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:02:51 AM EST
    Mainline religious -- not evangelical.  Their son is gay (me) and they're pro-gay rights.  They are suspicious of anyone who injects religion into politics.

    Here's a key thing -- they left a church that mentioned gay rights in a negative light.  My parents have not mentioned that, but I don't doubt they wonder why Obama stayed.


    Parent

    Wright didn't do it for gays (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:18:13 AM EST
    or not a lot of them.  McClurkin did.  It's the problem I've had all along: unite us with whom?  The Nation of Islam?  Wright?  Anti-abortion nuts?  Gay-hating republicans?  Because let's be honest here: if this is about unity, and he wants to unite the dems with people, this is what we are looking at.

    And I do not want to be united with these people.

    And I am in a very red state (Georgia) that will stay red no matter who gets the nom.  I will not vote for the man.  I will vote for all the downticket dems, but not for him.

    Parent

    I live in a lively Purple State (none / 0) (#97)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:45:30 AM EST
    And not voting for Obama would be a big deal for me. Voting for McCain was never an option.

    Not voting, sitting out an election because one of my children sat me down and gave me a good talking to is not an option either. They would never disrespect me in that way anyhow.  

    I am very upset and although I have said I won't vote for Obama I quite honestly don't know for sure. I do know that I will show up to vote for those down ticket Democrats I consider worth voting for. I don't vote a straight Democratic ticket and haven't done that for 20 years. Too many elections and too many broken promises from too many windbags.

    Parent

    it does all have to do with Wright (none / 0) (#102)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:56:28 AM EST
    I have been saying here for a while that I saw it coming.  oddly, the fact that I agree with the man on many of the most (apparently) controversial comments puts me in a interesting position to predict this.
    the truth is on more than one occasion, at a party or a family thanksgiving, I have had one to many and did a pretty good impression of the pastor on one or more of these issues.  
    I know first hand, up close and personal, how the broader public reacts to them.
    the reaction is visceral and goes beyond disbelief to hostility and anger.  people do not want to hear this stuff.  the will strike out in anger at the messenger.  I have experienced it many times.
    as soon as I saw the videos I knew what was coming.
    and heres the really bad news.  its not going away.  it is going to get worse.  and thats just my opinion of course.

    Parent
    Yes. She is the woman who lived with (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:45:52 AM EST
    Obama's maternal grandfather on Mercer Island off the coast of Washington state.  Another article talked about her liberal leanings, the fact she was Unitarian, and there it was rumored the grandparents were socialist.  Based on what I've read, she seems unlikely to have been making the kinds of remarks Obama attributed to her in his speech Tuesday.  

    @Salon Joan Walsh (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:59:32 AM EST
    Wrote a very good article about the speech.  Well, the villagers went nuts.  She brought up the grandma.  My web participation used to be limited to the odd Salon letter here and there.  I made the mistake of getting into it.  I sort of feel soiled.  They called Joan Walsh from starting with a middle aged rich white woman racist to everything you can imagine.  I frankly am scared with these people.  

    Parent
    when I check out the on-line comments (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:02:30 AM EST
    to news articles in our local paper, I have the same reaction.  Are these people really living in my community?  Might they be potential jurors in a future case I'll be trying?  

    Parent
    I worry that (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:06:22 AM EST
    that I will be in front of them as the defendant.  

    Parent
    Here is an interesting opinion (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:26:43 AM EST
    piece from South Korea.  Don't miss the analogy to The Importance of Being Earnest at the end of the article:

    KOREA TIMES ON OBAMA

    Parent

    Korea Times (5.00 / 0) (#73)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:33:09 AM EST
    Am I the only one who is slightly embarrassed that overseas coverage of our elections is more balanced than our own media?

    The Straits Times had a fabulous article a while back when I was in Singapore about how miraculous it would be for the world's strongest country to have a woman leader, and that it would be an inspiration not only to the 51% (or so) of women who make up the population but also a message to the minority of men who daily brutalize women.  Can you imagine what it will be like if we were able to focus our resources by getting out of Iraq and actually capture Bin Laden with a woman president at the helm?

    Talk about getting a thrill up your leg.

    Parent

    I know it's picky, but... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:46:50 AM EST
    Mercer Island is right across the lake from downtown Seattle.

    Parent
    He's (5.00 / 0) (#122)
    by tek on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:27:24 AM EST
    accused a Unitarian of that behavior?  I'm Unitarian, no way she was a racist.

    Parent
    That's why I put that in. I (5.00 / 0) (#147)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:57:03 AM EST
    worked for a Unitarian Church; quite a melting pot of ethnicities, religious backgrounds, etc.  The most basic credo was acceptance of everyone and helping to correct injustice.

    Parent
    I grew up Unitarian (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by tree on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:52:12 PM EST
     and this is one of my favorite Unitarian jokes:

    How many Unitarians does it take to change a lightbulb?

    We choose not to make a statement either in favor of or against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey you have found light bulbs work for you, that's fine. You are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your personal relationship with your light bulb, and present it next month at our annual light bulb Sunday service. At this time we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, three-way, long-life, and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence.

    Parent

    That really rings true. (none / 0) (#157)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:55:53 PM EST
    I was delighted with my job as organist because the Unitarians didn't observe Christmas, so no Sunday School Christmas pageant.  Then they invented a non-Christian non-Christmas pageant.  I also admired the non-baptismal ritual involving a daffodil and a candle.  

    Parent
    and now, for something completely (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by cpinva on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:46:02 AM EST
    different! with apologies to "monty python"!

    guess what? in spite of the fact that my fair city has, without question, the world's stupidist criminal population (rare is the case that actually goes to trial. they either get caught in the act, or just have to blab about it to everyone under the sun! hence, the only real question is: how much time do you want to do?), i am stuck with jury duty tomorrow.

    i say stuck because: 1. in 20 years, i have been called, on average, once every 4 years. in that same time, my lovely bride not ONCE! and, 2. because of my position, i will never, ever be selected for a criminal case, ever. unless the defense counsel is a graduate of the "cat-in-the-hat" school of law. should i be selected, and defendant is found guilty, he/she might well have a case for incompetent counsel.

    don't get me wrong, i don't really mind the whole jury duty thing; i see it as one of my responsibilities as a citizen. what i do mind is knowing, up front, that it is basically a waste of a day for me.

    by the way, did i mention that my wife has NEVER ONCE been picked for jury duty?

    I was called for jury duty annually (none / 0) (#151)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 11:55:49 AM EST
    for several years -- and I was glad to do my duty, but I also never actually get on a jury, either.  Lawyer friends laugh and explain that no one wants highly educated women on a jury, because we don't do what we're told!  My spouse, my adult children, no one else I knew got called to jury duty. . . .

    So when the fourth annual call came in the mail, I called the county office and asked what the heck was going on . . . and I said I thought I might just have to call some friends in the media about strange things going on with the jury-pool list.  It was a media topic then, anyway, with other oddities reported in terms of gender and race.

    I was excused and have not been called to jury duty since, in more than 10 years.  Try it. :-)

    Parent

    It Was A Good Speech, But (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by bob h on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:21:36 AM EST
    there is a class of whites who will be so put off by all this talk of black militancy that Obama will lose them.  My gut feeling is that it costs him 3% or so of the popular vote, and maybe the election.

    Love the late-night music Jeralyn (none / 0) (#1)
    by NJDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:46:27 PM EST
    Thanks!

    It does seem people can talk about Wright and the speech forever if you left them--self included :)

    Letterman bit (none / 0) (#3)
    by RalphB on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:52:24 PM EST
    Dave just did the "Barack Obama Uh Count".  30 uhs in his talk with Olbermann Friday.  Hilarious.
    Letterman (none / 0) (#7)
    by americanincanada on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:04:17 PM EST
    seems to be a Clinton supporter...

    Parent
    Olbermann (none / 0) (#9)
    by Chimster on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:06:00 PM EST
    I hope SNL does a skit involving Olbermann. He's about due for a send-up.

    Parent
    Nah (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Virginian on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:09:35 PM EST
    he is his own punch line

    I liked Olbermann before his falling in love with Obama...but I (and I think most of us) all knew he wasn't a real news man and he often gave us the facts we wanted to hear opposed to all the facts...

    Parent

    I liked Olbermann too (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by litigatormom on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:16:18 PM EST
    I might even like him again if he started training his guns on the Rethugs again, instead of on Clinton.

    Right now he is virtually unwatchable for me. I say virtually because I forced myself this evening to watch the first half hour, to see how over the top his coverage of the speech was. It was actually more restrained than Tweety, who called it "worthy of Lincoln."

    The one good thing about Olbermann is that you can rely on him to stick with Obama (assuming he wins the nomination) rather than reverting to the MSM default position of McCain Worship. I guess Keith has never been invited to McCain's Arizona ranch for barbecue.

    Parent

    It was nice while it lasted (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Chimster on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:21:19 PM EST
    Olbermann was a breath of fresh air when he was attacking George W. in the early days. Oh how times have changed. (According to Crooks and Liars) It seems that nowadays, all he does is trash anyone who dislikes Obama as the "worst person in the world". I don't think I've seen him do the same for Hillary. Maybe I'm wrong. He's like a vindictive ex-girlfriend to me now.

    Parent
    Olbermann, MSNBC and all that (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by noholib on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:36:13 PM EST
    I too used to love Olbermann. But I couldn't abide MSNBC anymore after Shuster's disgusting comment about Chelsea Clinton.  Though KO did criticize that remark, everything else coming out of his mouth and his guests (except for Craig Crawford) had become so vicious and filled with Hillary-hate that I turned them off in early Feb.  Yes, I have managed to survive without them! And I'm grateful that I didn't witness Tweety Mathews' "tingling down the leg ... this is the New Testament" nonsense.  I admit I have a strong allergy to charisma and mass enthusiasm in politics.  
    I'm so glad to have found talkleft because I couldn't stand the one-sidedness of dailykos,buzzflash, and huffpo any longer. The discussions on talkleft are interesting, rational, and well moderated.  Thank you!

    Parent
    I Noticed, Just Before I Tuned Out (none / 0) (#143)
    by flashman on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:26:52 AM EST
    That Craig Crawford's role was diminished at MSNBC.  That's what happens when you don't toe the company line.  Now, mabye he is back; I wouln't know as I don't watch anymore.  But it was clear to me that they only watned Obama sheep as commentators.

    Parent
    With more makeup than Armisen wears (none / 0) (#13)
    by Cream City on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:08:19 PM EST
    My spouse still watches KO, so I got a glimpse today -- and KO can't even crack a smile lest he crack the thick layer of makeup.  When did that start?  Yikes.

    Parent
    Sorry I missed it! Franken on now (none / 0) (#15)
    by Cream City on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:09:29 PM EST
    and we really need to have Al to win, so we can see more of him again.

    Parent
    Thanks for the Letterman tip (none / 0) (#31)
    by lambert on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:29:48 PM EST
    Here's the YouTube. Obama does seem to flounder just a bit when he's not working from a prepared text.

    Parent
    someone on (none / 0) (#69)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:20:00 AM EST
    No Quarter was saying that if this was a heartfelt speech, why did he have to read it from a teleprompter (and not very well).

    Parent
    I read it (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:47:14 AM EST
    But you have got to be crazy if you think that what is being called the most important speech in Obama's political career was not vetted, assisted and edited by at least five of his top people, plus his wife.

    I would say the same of Clinton-both of them.  Yeah, Bill often wrote his own speeches, but then he handed them off to the experts because no one has good perspective on their own work.  These are politicians.  They don't just go out and deliver a speech without key people combing through them for landmines.  To think otherwise is a tad naive.  

    Parent

    So you're calling him a liar (none / 0) (#84)
    by JJE on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:58:31 AM EST
    based on your extensive insider knowledge of politics.  

    Parent
    JJE (none / 0) (#85)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:00:35 AM EST
    please don't be inflammatory.  There is no need to go there.

    Parent
    "naive" and "crazy" (none / 0) (#107)
    by JJE on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:08:05 AM EST
    seem pretty inflammatory to me.  Motes, beams, you know the drill.

    Parent
    That's funny (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:53:12 AM EST
    but i hope no one does a Hillary Clinton 'you know' count.  She is getting better, but still uses that an awful lot.

    Nothing beats the McCain 'my friends' though. That's a drinking game!

    Parent

    I'm Glad Someone Else Notices That (none / 0) (#140)
    by flashman on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:22:53 AM EST
    For such a "great orator", he does say "uh" alot.

    Parent
    For very serious reasons I want HRC (none / 0) (#5)
    by NJDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:58:22 PM EST
    in the White House--but I've also been dying for Conan to bring back the Bill Clinton bit with the picture of him and the real lips--that was always hysterical!  Ye-haw!

    I Loved That (none / 0) (#144)
    by flashman on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:30:04 AM EST
    Almost forgot about it.  Thanks for taking me down memory lane :)

    Parent
    want to share this left center right site. (none / 0) (#6)
    by thereyougo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:59:56 PM EST
    I'm not sure about the tag.

    [http://hotrantsmedia.com/Home.aspx]

    what's with this Wisc. re-vote (none / 0) (#8)
    by NJDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:04:42 PM EST
    plan.  Sorry, don't mean to be hijacking this thread with all these questions.  But I'm confused and too lazy to investigate it.  What's behind this?  

    No such thing. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Cream City on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:07:08 PM EST
    Link?  I think I joked about it.:-)

    Parent
    Sorry Cream (none / 0) (#16)
    by NJDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:09:30 PM EST
    I thought I saw on CNN something about Washington re-voting (which would make sense considering the discrepancy b/w the caucus and primary) and then I saw your post and thought I got the "W" states confused :)

    My bad.  

    You may have seen news of (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:25:29 PM EST
    a US Supreme Court opinion about Washington election law that has never been implemented due to legal challenges.  

    Parent
    My question:how does Obama's (none / 0) (#29)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:27:13 PM EST
    speech today show he is ready to be President? Is there anything new? We already knew he could give a good speech. Nothing's changed after day.
    We all knew he was black, and tuned to racial issues. Check, we still know that today.
    I find him unqualified to be President ---now---and today's speech does nothing to assuage my worries about his lack of experience.
    Now, to put it in painstaking JMM-ese, I fully acknowledge that I am not the best, most objective judge of Obama's speeches, but it seemed to me what was lacking in today's speech was leadership.
    Yes, you heard me right. Did Obama talk about something uncomfortable today... or at least uncomfortable to white people? Yes.
    But where is the call to action, or the example of how race should be treated? I do not see it.
    In fact, his campaign has flubbed badly if Obama wanted to transcend race: everyone acknowleges that Obama's success came by painting the Clintons as racist.
    I  am not going to forget that, just because obama gave another pretty speech.

    speech (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by noholib on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:47:08 PM EST
    I have friends who are strong Clinton supporters who were moved by Obama's speech today.  I think it was intelligent and thoughtful,light-years ahead of Romney's efforts to talk about religion.  Obama's vision of harmony is inspiring and idealistic.  But it is still only a speech, though it is reported that he himself wrote this one, which is commendable. Still, his speech does not allay my concerns about his lack of experience, nor does it remove my concerns about his willingness to paint everyone else as mis-using race when his campaign has not been free of that itself.  

    Parent
    it was disappointing and disingenous (none / 0) (#110)
    by JJE on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:11:16 AM EST
    for him to equate condemning Wright with condemning Ferraro, when his campaign did in fact jump all over Ferraro.  That note rang false.

    Parent
    Good post. I'll add this. He is not ready to be (none / 0) (#33)
    by Angel on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:37:18 PM EST
    president.  He parrots Hillary in the debates because she has the solutions and he wants everyone to think he does.  He doesn't.  He gives a good speech, but they are words written by others.  He is trying to change the focus from the Rev Wright issue and the fact that he still considers this man his spiritual advisor to one of race.  Rev Wright's comments were not necessarily the problem, it was BO's steadfast allegiance to the man for over 20 years.  I say that is hypocritical, especially when you paint yourself as an agent of change and as one who is supposedly the transformative candidate.  This speech today was nothing more than an attempt at damage control, and it was an act of desperation because BO let it sit for too long.  He thought if he ignored it then it would go away.  BO is not the be all-end all when it comes to the discussion of race even though he thinks he can control that conversation.  I think he did himself and the country a disservice today because his speech was all about trying to save BO's hide and not really about racism.

    Parent
    Well.. (none / 0) (#35)
    by ajain on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:44:43 PM EST
    If that was a question voters had been asking each other all this time I think Hillary would have wrapped up this nomination in Iowa.

    Parent
    "everyone" doesn't acknowledge that (none / 0) (#112)
    by JJE on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:12:25 AM EST
    Come on man.  That's your view.  It's not universal by any means.

    Parent
    I've checked google news for (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:57:51 PM EST
    "Obama's grandmother," but doesn't look like anyone has located her just yet.  Maybe tomorrow.  I did find this at Bloomberg:

    Obama's speech ``made clear that his own views differed'' from those expressed by his longtime pastor, just as Kennedy made clear that a Catholic president would not answer to the Vatican, said Ted Sorensen, 79, an Obama supporter who helped Kennedy write the Houston speech that was a turning point in his race for the White House.

    Italics added.

    Grandma got run over.... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:11:28 AM EST
    by some reindeer....video

    Parent
    Can't open that from this computer. (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:15:58 AM EST
    But it does seem to me if Spitzer's call girl was located w/i a scant 2 days or so, we should be hearing from Obama's grandmother soon.  

    Parent
    Isn't his grandmother named (none / 0) (#49)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:49:10 AM EST
    Madelyn Dunham? The Chicago Tribune wrote  about her here.

    Here's a picture of Obama with his grandparents.

    His grandfather died in 1992. I believe his grandmother is still alive.

    Parent

    From the article (none / 0) (#61)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:44:19 AM EST
    An interesting tidbit about the impending marriage of Obama's parents, showing that inklings of racism weren't all coming from Barack's maternal grandmother:

    The Dunhams weren't happy. Stanley Ann's prospective father-in-law was furious. He wrote the Dunhams "this long, nasty letter saying that he didn't approve of the marriage," Obama recounted his mother telling him in "Dreams." "He didn't want the Obama blood sullied by a white woman."


    Parent
    Can't find the link.. (none / 0) (#74)
    by Rainsong on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:37:21 AM EST
    but I read his grandmother is still alive in Hawaii, but quite elderly, in poor health and has refused all interviews since 2004.

    Parent
    The grandmother (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:44:23 AM EST
    I hope people leave her alone and respect her privacy.  I also hope she didn't hear that speech.  Some things should just be off limits in a public forum.

    Parent
    Not soon (none / 0) (#42)
    by G Davis on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:12:55 AM EST
    I don't know if it was the best all time speech ever as so many are saying, but I do think it did a couple of things:
    1. It marginalizes Hannity and company and their frothy loathing of all things progressive.  If they keep playing the same clips over and over while the rest of the world discusses race overall, they are the ones that look like fools which is never a bad thing.

    2. I don't think either of the other two candidates could have opened the door to this sort of discrimination discussion but Obama.  He was forced into it, but he did take it up a notch.  That now gets the gorilla out of the room and Hillary can now talk about it without risk of being accused of the race card.

    I think it would be great if Hillary gave the same sort of frank talk about gender bias in this country.  It's long overdue, and what a perfect opening to really move forward the rights of women in this equity push.

    Just a couple thoughts...great music in the opening, thanks!

    Do you really think (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:57:52 AM EST
    that if Hillary Clinton gave a frank speech on gender bias that it would get honest treatment in the media or in Left Blogostan? She has given several "great" speeches and the media yawns and complains about her being "shrill" or that she's lying or disingenuous or that she will do anything to win. No use pretending that there is fairness in the media, because there is not.

    Obama and McCain are their darlings and that is the election race they want to see. Since they chose our candidates for us I am sure they will continue to do their best to choose our nominee.

    And then all of us "good" little progressives are supposed to march off to vote for "our" candidate even if we don't like him, don't want him, and don't think he's the real deal. But he's better than t'other guy. What a lame excuse to cast a vote and I ought to know, I've been doing it for more years than I care to remember.

    Parent

    Clinton (5.00 / 0) (#132)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:44:16 AM EST
    gave a sweeping foreign policy speech the day before Obama's The Speech and it went totally ignored.  Nothing on the news now about Murtha supporting her or that she is picking up more super ds.  Appalling.

    Parent
    I disagree. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Fabian on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:33:25 AM EST
    They BOTH avoided talking gender and race for one simple reason - Teh Media Is Stoopid.

    You never, ever give the media a sound bite they can use against you because they will.  They'll play Ferarro or Wright over and over and over again.  The minute Clinton or Obama would talk about her gender or his race, the media would immediately jump in and brand their campaigns as being All About Race/Gender.  Issues?  The Economy?  Healthcare? Iraq?   All that would be forgotten and the campaigns would be reduced to two dimensional caricatures.

    The Unity schtick is no accident.  Obama knows that if he is going to win enough votes, he needs to be seen as for everyone, not just black voters.


    Parent

    I have to ask this (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:25:00 AM EST
    the speech (or should I say, The Speech) ran at around 10-11 in the morning, when lots of normal folks were at work.  So, the first they probably heard of it was on the nightly news, and both NBC and ABC were basically saying that if you were a smart, liberal, elitist NYer, then the speech worked, but if you were part of the great unwashed, it didn't.

    Which is really a great way to win votes-insult your core constituency.

    Parent

    Teh Media doesn't need votes. (none / 0) (#86)
    by Fabian on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:01:40 AM EST
    Obama does.

    And frankly, the more I think about his speech, the more I think he blew a great opportunity.  If he had just for one speech, put down the whole "Me.  Vote for Me!" meme, he could have really written a memorable speech.

    But in the end, I think it was contrived, stilted and talked more about Obama than it needed to and less about America than it ought to have.

    The inspiring sob story tacked on the end was straw for me.  Maybe it sounds good live, but I read it and imagined the swelling strings of an overwrought sound track in the background.

    If I want to cry, I'll go watch some soppy sentimental movie.  Or I'll think about Iraq.  Or I'll remember being up at 5 am so I could catch the announcement of the Nobel Peace Prize online.  

    Parent

    Was a good speech... (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Rainsong on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:28:44 AM EST
    .. as speeches go. Although it didn't tingle my leg, being an older woman of native american stock, the subject matter just doesn't do it for me, if you know what I mean?  Want to compete in the Oppression Olympics? <grin>

    The Ferraro, grandmother etc references, were at best, totally unneccessary and irrelevant, and at worst, deeply insulting to many. Me included.

    That said, he's probably a sincere genuine nice guy - but I already have a best friend, I want a President. Someone who knows how to do the job.

    Unlike some other countries, our President is not just a ceremonial symbolic figure, expected to make awesome speeches, littered with words of wisdom, or moral angst about the national psyche. In the US, they are also Head of Government as well as Head of State.

    If I was hiring, and I stacked up Obama and Clinton's resumes, relevant previous work and life experience in national governance, relevant academic qualifications, and checking their references etc - I'm sorry, but Clinton wins hands down. Only have to read their wikipedia entries. She makes some pretty awesome speeches too, if anybody ever gets the chance to listen.

    Then all the male-bonding weenie-wagging going on within the DNC, Florida/Michigan etc, and all upheld by bigger weenie-waggers of the MSM, with nearly a year of the most gross mysogyny, as in hate-speech directed against the female half of the species, and so much of it originating from our so-called brothers in the liberal/progressive community. Democrat Brothers - just which part don't you understand of the word: NO?

    Parent

    I did find myself wondering (none / 0) (#133)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:48:15 AM EST
    if the speech (which, admittedly, I have only skimmed) concentrated on other minorities, not just aa's.  

    Parent
    No, unfortunately it was black and white. (none / 0) (#150)
    by Fabian on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 11:46:53 AM EST
    For the most part.  Sure Obama knows the black culture of America, so he would feel comfortable talking about it - but the -isms comprise more than blacks and whites.  Immigrants of every legal standing, genders, sexual orientation, economic advantage and disadvantage - there's -isms and cultural divides everywhere you look.

    It's a natural thing - tribalism is ingrained into our very DNA.  The real injustice is when various factions and organizations use the natural divisions to pit us against each other.  That's the real problem.  Every time we fight each other, we lose.  Every time we reach out to each other, we win.  

    That's why I'm so pissed at DK.  When people stop talking and listening, they lose.  

    Parent

    Please let me give my thought (none / 0) (#44)
    by zfran on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:25:35 AM EST
    on "the speech." First, I thought it was a well-written speech. I agreed with some of what he said, however, I am teaching my children to tell the truth and when caught in a lie, to take responsibility for that lie. Sen. Obama said he had not sat in the pews and heard any of Rev. Wrights negative comments. Today he said he had. He did not take responsibility for his original answer, to me, a fault in judgement. He said he did not agree with those kinds of words, however, he did not say in his speech that he spoke with his spritual advisor to tell him how he felt. Again, a misjudgement.

    On another lapse in judgement, he said he didn't know Rezsco was in legal trouble...this, too, was not true and his relations with him went deeper than he has disclosed.

    There's more, but to question Sen. Clinton's judgement and then have had his own, is being a hypocrite and that also goes to judgement.

    By the way, I believe they all have told lies. I thought he says he was different.  

    In the Nightline article below, (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:32:40 AM EST
    Obama says he confronted The Rev. Wright on the latter's unacceptable rhetoric.

    Parent
    Here's Obama on Obama's speech: (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:27:07 AM EST
    NIGHTLINE

    Nothing on grandmother, but he does think OJ was guilty.

    the whole world (none / 0) (#50)
    by white n az on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:50:23 AM EST
    knows that OJ was guilty...that is hardly earth shattering.

    Talk about dog whistles...can we be any more transparent?

    Parent

    Obama was discussing the fact the (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:51:44 AM EST
    trial and verdict were viewed differently by the AA community than by others.  

    Parent
    OJ guilty? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:25:51 AM EST
    Oh, me.  Talk about pandering.

    Parent
    Obama is coming! Obama is coming! (none / 0) (#55)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:01:30 AM EST
    It's all over the local news tonight. Obama is coming to Portland (OR) this Friday. He will be speaking at the Coliseum, where the Trailblazers played for years. (They have a spiffy and bigger arena now.)

    Info soon on how to get tickets to this must see event. News at 11.

    Oregon primary is May 20 (none / 0) (#58)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:05:56 AM EST
    People are comparing this to 1968 when Bobby Kennedy campaigned here and lost. Oregon was the primary just prior to CA in '68.

    Why all the Obama bashing on the 5th Anniversary (none / 0) (#72)
    by lindalawyer on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:29:09 AM EST
    I dont get it---why is there such a drive to bash Obama? Am I wrong or are we only welcome if we support HC? I will if she is the candidate, but in the meantime, I can't understand the degree and depth of the criticm. Fear that BO will be the canidate and lose? Yes, but the same can be said about some voters animosity against HC.

    We all have choices (5.00 / 0) (#113)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:14:50 AM EST
    Jeralyn made the choice to support Hillary after Edwards dropped out. The same here. After participating else where for years I needed a safe haven. On DK for example, if Marcos had decided to support someone else (He did like other candidates)don't you think that there might be more give and take on his site now? When a person comes here to this site, they understand that it is Jeralyn's site, 3 people write diaries and BTD supports Obama, and everyone tries to remain civil. If you want more outlandish screaming, cursing, name calling and one sided view for another candidate, then that is your choice. If you want that civil thing going, then this is the place and just as much fun. What is important is that people read several sites to get the on going flavor of what's happening to keep informed. Knowledge is Power. We are Democrats.

    Parent
    you must forgive us (none / 0) (#95)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:40:34 AM EST
    sometimes we are so excited about a place where we will not be vilified for what we believe that we get carried away.
    it usually passes after a week or so

    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#78)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:45:01 AM EST
     Clinton good, Obama bad. Do you really think there is more to it than that?

       

    I wonder (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:48:11 AM EST
    if the folks here who so vocally complain about Obama bashing ever visit the other blogs and complain about Clinton bashing.

    But, honestly, I think we represent both sides fairly reasonably here, else you wouldn't get to say things like this.

    Parent

    I haven't visited any other blogs (none / 0) (#96)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:44:33 AM EST
    (well political blogs) in a long time.

      I would say this is the "best" blog of which I am aware, but that speaks more to the quality of the others than this one, and this one could be soooooo much better.

    Parent

    haven't visited any other blogs (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:45:59 AM EST
    that explains a lot.  no offense.


    Parent
    I stopped (none / 0) (#116)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:18:29 AM EST
     pretty much exactly for the reasons you and others complain about.  I continue with this one because while very far from  a forum for fair and open discussion is as close as is available and not quite bad enough for me to quit.

     Honestly, it's the presence of a handful of intelligent and thought provoking people who come here to comment rather than "the bloggers" who lead me to stay and the fact this blog is relatively small allows for conversation with the handful with much more ease and much less "noise" from the not so thoughtful than at the mega-blogs which might have more "good" comenters in absolute numbers but are so easily lost in the morass.

    Parent

    I really meant no offense (none / 0) (#120)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:25:57 AM EST
    its just that you have to have been out "there".
    and lately.  
    to appreciate the level of hostility toward anyone who expresses even the wish to treat Hillary with respect and fairness.
    and how far this site is from that other extreme.
    and how we have all felt the sting of the delete key.
    the point is its nothing personal.

    Parent
    first (none / 0) (#130)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:39:49 AM EST
      if it's even 1/100th as bad as all the whining here suggests, I'll agree that I wouldn't like it-- and I do not like Clinton.

      I'll also say that  that having viewed  how this site treats people who do something other than fawn over Clinton, thoise place must be pretty horrific these days if this is held out as an example of  how it should be done.

    Parent

    Well maybe you are not (none / 0) (#88)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:05:38 AM EST
     aware that some of the things I have said have been censored and not because I made any personal attacks but merely because I commented on the profound bias of this site and its less than genuine acknowledgment of the degree and purpose of that bias.

    Jeralyn has rules about commenting. We've (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:22:14 AM EST
    all been deleted at some time or other.  Bashing the site is a no-no.  It's her site so she sets the tone and makes the rules.  If you want to criticize her for having an open forum do so elsewhere.  This is one of the best sites available because she is strict in the sense that she doesn't let people get nasty and mean.  There are lots of other places to go for that kind of thing.  It is civil over here and that's a good thing.

    Parent
    I didn't criticize her for having an open forum (none / 0) (#99)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:50:57 AM EST
     I criticized her for being extremely biased in what she writes, refusing to admit how her extreme  bias motivates her writing and then censoring people (which is sort of the opposite of being open, n'est-ce pas?) who seek to open discussion concerning the bias.

    Parent
    It is Jeralyn's call on whether or not to delete a (5.00 / 0) (#119)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:25:12 AM EST
    comment.  It is not up to us readers.  However, the readers are supposed to alert her if there is anything unsavory she may have missed.  We want to keep everything civil.  That said, I disagree with your comment that "her extreme bias motivates her writing...".  Jeralyn is one of the most unbiased bloggers I've found.  She is thoughtful and articulate and reasonable.  We may not all agree with everything she says but we can't fault her for being unreasonably biased.  This is, in my opnion, the best site on politics and law - EVER.  I have learned so much by being a part of this community.  I hope this site and it's unique spirit continue for a long time.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#127)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:31:58 AM EST
     in the world I would prefer. You would be free to think that and I would free to think otherwise and we would both free to express our opinions.

      I don't accept the rationale that is too much to ask or expect just because other places are worse.

      If the standard becomes (and not in this but more generally in society), I don't need to improve because other people are worse there is little hope for progress.

    Parent

    are you trying to get deleted now (none / 0) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:59:21 AM EST
    to make your point or something?
    the bait doesnt seem to be being taken.


    Parent
    do you think (none / 0) (#109)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:10:39 AM EST
    I should be censored for writing that? That will tell me a lot about you.

    Parent
    Jeralyn doesn't like chatting (none / 0) (#126)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:31:40 AM EST
    And we are chatting right now. Bandwidth you know. This is a growing site as she just had to get another server. So don't be surprised if we all get deleted. End of chat.

    Parent
    Oh come on! (none / 0) (#135)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:02:01 AM EST
      This site manages to find room for the celebrity scandal du jour and discussions of TV shows or  what movie stars wore, so I don't think room is really an issue when it comes  to censoring critiques.

      I'm also concerned about the mind-set that leads people to say _ is in control, so it doesn't matter what I think. That's a position i will resist in all contexts until my final gasp.

    Parent

    think of it like NY in the 90s (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM EST
    people were so tired of the state of things that they gladly accepted an environment with more restrictions than the one they had before just so they could pull up to a stoplight without having a dozen filthy bums try to wash their windshields with a dirty rag or a bandage.
    or maybe thats not a great example.

    Parent
    That might not be a bad example (none / 0) (#139)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:20:11 AM EST
    but if I had  lived in NYC I would have resisted Giuilaini and argued against ceding power to those with authoritarian impulses just because they promise a more orderly environment. I might also have argued that the more orderly environment was illusory and it was more  a matter of who was permitted to contribute to disorder.

      Yeah, the more I think about it, the better the example gets. Well said.

    Parent

    well (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:24:35 AM EST
    I was in NY in the 90s and I left.
    exactly for the reasons you site.
    but I feel pretty comfortable here.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#146)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:54:32 AM EST
    You have a good sense of humor there Captain Howdy.

    Parent
    See Comment Policy (none / 0) (#145)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:53:20 AM EST
    Check out Bullet Point 3 "Bandwidth is expensive" and Chatterers on Bullet Point 6. I kid U Not.

    Parent
    And you don't find it relevant the (none / 0) (#149)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 11:11:08 AM EST
    "rule" applies only, by its own terms, to people who disagree with Talkleft when we are discussing censorship and my position  the censorship is not directed at incivility but at people who dare to think differently than the "approved" line of thinking?

      Sheep can be tasty, but not always the most adept defenders of the shepherd.

    Parent

    A thought for the day (none / 0) (#92)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:35:35 AM EST
    Bias is in the eye of the beholder.

    Parent
    that's exactly the point (none / 0) (#101)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:54:28 AM EST
     We are all biased in one way or another but it is dishonest to deny when one is motivated by a bias and it is the antithesis of honest and open debate to censor discussion of the biases. One need not be less than civil to do that and the censorship hammer is not directed at incivility (at least in whole), it is directed at contrary thoughts and opinions.

    Parent
    I see no censorship (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:41:54 AM EST
    Have you ever been allow not to discuss topics posted here? Have you not been allowed to disagree with the topic of the diary?

    To follow the rules set in a forum is not the same as censorship. If you don't agree with the rules don't participate. That is your choice.

    Having seen what has happened to other discussion forums, and to see how this forum still functions so well and allows views from both sides, the civility and ground rules are a small price to pay.

    And no one I know on this forum has ever tried to hide their bias in any way.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#136)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:02:43 AM EST


    Parent
    a bias toward uncivility (none / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:38:29 AM EST


    Parent
    Oh baby.... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:22:11 AM EST
    I love me some Kinks...what a band, what a band.

    Come to think of it, we could use a Village Green Preservation Society on this side of the pond.

    We are the office block persecution affinity
    God save little shops, china cups and virginity
    We are the skyscraper condemnation affiliate
    God save tudor houses, antique tables and billiards
    Preserving the old ways from being abused
    Protecting the new ways for me and for you
    What more can we do
    God save the village green.
    Me, (none / 0) (#94)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:38:42 AM EST
     I'm more of a Muswell Hillbilly Boy, but, altough anachronistic now i suppose my favorire song might be:

    20th Century Man-- Ray Davies

    This is the age of machinery,
    A mechanical nightmare,
    The wonderful world of technology,
    Napalm hydrogen bombs biological warfare,

    This is the twentieth century,
    But too much aggravation
    It's the age of insanity,
    What has become of the green pleasant fields of Jerusalem?

    Ain't got no ambition, I'm just disillusioned
    I'm a twentieth century man but I don't wanna be here.
    My mama said she can't understand me
    She can't see my motivation
    Just give me some security,
    I'm a paranoid schizoid product of the twentieth century.

    You keep all your smart modern writers
    Give me William Shakespeare
    You keep all your smart modern painters
    I'll take Rembrandt, Titian, da Vinci and Gainsborough,

    Girl we gotta get out of here
    We gotta find a solution
    I'm a twentieth century man but I don't want to die here.

    I was born in a welfare state
    Ruled by bureaucracy
    Controlled by civil servants
    And people dressed in grey
    Got no privacy got no liberty
    Cos the twentieth century people
    Took it all away from me.

    Don't wanna get myself shot down
    By some trigger happy policeman,
    Gotta keep a hold on my sanity
    I'm a twentieth century man but I don't wanna die here.

    My mama says she can't understand me
    She can't see my motivation
    Ain't got no security,
    I'm a twentieth century man but I dont wanna be here.

    This is the twentieth century
    But too much aggravation
    This is the edge of insanity
    I'm a twentieth century man but I dont wanna be here.

    That's a good one.... (none / 0) (#111)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:11:58 AM EST
    make that a great one.

    How 'bout this one becoming very relevant again...A Gallon of Gas.

    I can score you some coke and some grade one grass
    But I can't get a gallon of gas
    I've got some downers some speed all the drugs that you need
    But I can't get a gallon of gas
    There's no more left to buy or sell
    There's no more oil left in the well
    A gallon of gas can't be purchased anywhere
    For any amount of cash

    And any list of favorites has to include Ape Man.

    I think Im so educated and Im so civilized
    cos Im a strict vegetarian
    But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
    And the crazy politicians
    I dont feel safe in this world no more
    I dont want to die in a nuclear war
    I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man


    Parent
    this is one I'm sure you'll like (none / 0) (#118)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:22:32 AM EST
    People in Grey-- Ray Davies

    Got a letter this morning with some serious news that's gone and ruined my day,
    The borough surveyor's used compulsory purchase to acquire my domain,
    They're gonna pull up the floors, they're gonna knock down the walls,
    They're gonna dig up the drains.

    Here come the people in grey, they're gonna take me away to Lord knows only where,
    But I'm so unprepared, I got no time to pack and I got nothing to wear,
    Here come the people in grey,
    To take me away.

    Me and my baby gonna get on a train that's gonna take us away,
    We're gonna live in a tent, we're gonna pay no more rent, we're gonna pay no more rates,
    We're gonna live in a field, we're gonna buy me gun to keep the policemen away.

    I'm gonna pass me a brand new resolution,
    I'm gonna fight me a one man revolution, someway,
    Gonna beat those people in grey,
    But here come the people in grey,
    To take me away.

    Here come the people in grey,
    To take me away.

    People in grey have gone and taken away my right to voice my complaint,
    Her Majesty's Government have sent me a form, I must complete it today.
    But it's making me blue, don't wanna tell all my secrets to
    The people in grey.

    Gonna pass me a brand new resolution,
    Gonna fight me a one man revolution, someway,
    Gonna start my rebellion today.
    But here come the people in grey,
    To take me away.

    Oh, Lord, those people in grey,
    I gotta get back at those people in grey,
    Here come the people in grey,
    To take me away.

    (As you may have guessed Muswell hillbillies is one of my all-time favorite albums.)


    Parent

    Thanks brother.... (none / 0) (#128)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:34:12 AM EST
    I'd never read those lyrics before....wow.

    I always loved "Skin and Bone" off Muswell, I too am unattracted to skin and bones, and love a woman who loves her buttered scones:)

    Fat flabby annie was incredibly big
    She weighed just about sixteen stone
    And then a fake dietician went and put her on a diet
    Now she looks like skin and bone.
    Do the meditation and yoga
    And she's thrown away the good food guide
    And she's given up the alcohol and pizzas
    And the pies and now she looks as if she's ready to die,
    You can't see her walk by.

    Don't eat no mashed potatoes,
    Don't eat no buttered scones
    Stay away from carbohydrates
    You're gonna look like skin and bone.



    Parent
    My catch 22.. do you suffer like wise? (none / 0) (#105)
    by TalkRight on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:06:39 AM EST
    Ok so yesterday, I switched my cable around 8 PM to get a feedback on the Senator Obama's speech.

    I turned MSNBC that had the Keith Olbermann -- I just couldn't stand out the way he was praising.

    Next I turned to CNN -- it had two analysts DONNA BRAZILE and Roland S. Martin trying to parse his speech. [are they both not Obama supporters.]

    Gosh... very should I go for the fair and balanced view??????? hmmmm .. I turned to Fox and it had .. you got it.. Bill O'Reilly -- no spin fair and balanced... and I am not kidding.. he had a better got two "black" analyst.. one an Obama supporter and another Not a supporter... and their they had it.. fair and balanced.. can't believe it.

    Has (5.00 / 0) (#124)
    by tek on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:29:57 AM EST
    Barack Obama already become president?  I still don't see why he was given free air time to make a speech because his campaign got in trouble and he's trying to get people to vote for him.  It was advertised as if it were the State of the Union!

    Parent
    Disappointment ... worse than Bush State of Union (none / 0) (#148)
    by TalkRight on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 11:05:11 AM EST
    His speech was disappointing and shameful...This goes to the heart of who Barack Obama is. He's trying to say he represents the 21st-century view on race and here he's sticking up for this guy."

    Parent
    we were having a (none / 0) (#114)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:15:41 AM EST
    "I admit I watch FOX news" party yesterday.
    sorry you missed it.
    I saw O'Reilly last night too.  funny. yesterday someone suggested putting it on him and turning the sound down just to drive Olberbamamans numbers down, which I thought was a great idea, and I got sucked it.
    he even had a persecuted Clinton blogger on.  even it she seemed as embarrassed to be there as I did.

    Parent
    "Senator Hopey", "Unity Pony" (none / 0) (#115)
    by JJE on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:16:18 AM EST
    Very insightful indeed.

    I (none / 0) (#121)
    by tek on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:26:13 AM EST
    read that Tweety compared it with Lincoln's speeches!  As a historian, I find that absolutely repulsive.  Lincoln, a man who truly reached out to all of his enemies because--devoid of traditional religion--he wanted a unified nation.

    fair enough (none / 0) (#125)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:31:27 AM EST
    it not all about Wright. it is indeed ABOUT much larger issues.
    but Wright started the discussion.  he and his relationship with the candidate brought all this into focus.  and provided very new prism through which to view Obama.  one at stark odds with the one the media had provided up to now.
    he was the grenade that cracked open the impenetrable media armor.  

    btw (none / 0) (#129)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:34:50 AM EST
    on the subject of telling the truth I saw a couple of people (finally) questioning the fact that he admitted yesterday that he had not been telling the truth about not being in the pew during some of this offensive stuff.
    can you imagine what would happen to Hillary in the same situation?
    and they didnt seem happy. and they were not on FOX.

    I didnt watch the speech till last night (none / 0) (#134)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:59:02 AM EST
    it reads very different than it was delivered. personally, I thought Obama has been much better than he was yesterday. he was flat and  seemed peeved and aggravated to have to be there.
    it just was not the greatest DELIVERED speech evah.
    not even close.
    Tek needs to tone it down (none / 0) (#153)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:34:30 PM EST
    Tek repeatedly personally insults Barack Obama and posts race-baiting comments. I'm getting tired of deleting. them. Either express yourself without personal attacks or please post elsewhere.

    Tyranny alert... (none / 0) (#158)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:37:12 PM EST
    Link

    At about 1:30 p.m. Saturday, March 1, officers from the Tactical Crime Suppression Unit (Germantown, Kettering, Centerville, Moraine, Miamisburg, Oakwood, Springboro and West Carrollton), Internal Revenue Service Criminal Investigations, Clark County Sheriff's Office, Perry, Clay and German Twp. Police Departments, and the Ohio Attorney Generals Office "simultaneously conducted five search warrants,"

    Sounds serious...

    A variety of illegal gambling paraphernalia was confiscated from the clubs, including gaming tables, cards and chips, Woodard said. He said the operations appeared to involve mostly high stakes card games. About 75 patrons, "young, old, male, female," were interviewed at the West Carrollton club and about a half dozen patrons at the Medway club

    I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    Late Night: All Day and All of the Night | 151 comments (151 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment