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It's Official: No New Primary for Florida

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:04:13 PM EST
Tags: Florida 08 (all tags)
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The Florida Democratic Party has rejected a plan for a new primary.

In an e-mail sent to Florida Democrats late Monday afternoon, state party Chairwoman Karen Thurman said, "We researched every potential alternative process -- from caucuses to county conventions to mail-in elections -- but no plan could come anywhere close to being viable in Florida."
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Thurman said the decision now falls to the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, which is scheduled to meet again next month.

Thurman says the consenus of the thousands of e-mails was that Floridians don't want to vote again.

Of course they don't. More than 1.7 million Democrats already voted and they chose Hillary. They want their vote to count. And it should. The DNC is the culprit here. They need to retract the penalty and award and seat the delegates in accordance with the January 29 vote.

Update: A must-read primer on the Florida primary battle by Mary Beth at Wampum.

Update: Comments now closed, new Florida thread here.

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    • Display: Sort:
    It's Official: No New Primary for Florida | 250 comments (250 topical)
    So the Dems are prepared to hand FL to the Repubs (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:07:37 PM EST


    Camp Obama (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:33:05 PM EST
    Believes they can win without Florida.


    [ Parent ]
    this is terrible for hillary (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Turkana on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:09:40 PM EST
    and terrible for the party.

    As cynical as I am... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by DudeE on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:15:26 PM EST
    ...I really have a hard time believing the DNC will simply leave FL hanging - one of the largest states in the US and one pivotal in the last two elections - without any voice whatsoever in the nomination.

    I can hear John McCain now... "Florida, the Republican party values your voice and you can trust me to continue to value your views and represent you in the White House"

    Disenfranchisement arguments aside, this is just terrible PR for the Dem party and a credibility blow its claim of inclusiveness.

    [ Parent ]

    Do you (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by tek on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:26:43 PM EST
    think this is absolutely it, or could FL still change their minds?

    Darn, I was looking forward to voting for Hil in FL.

    [ Parent ]

    seem likely to me they may (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:33:50 PM EST
    be seated.


    [ Parent ]
    Chuck Todd, MSNBC's (none / 0) (#203)
    by litigatormom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:34:11 PM EST
    political director, just told Keith Olbermann that there will likely be a compromise long before the convention, that would give Clinton more than 50% of the delegates (someone has finally woken up to the reality that the 50%-50% split idea is risible) but wouldn't "let her count the popular vote."

    The advantage to Obama would be that his delegate lead wouldn't be significantly affected, and it would be harder for Clinton to make her "popular vote" argument.  On the other hand, popular votes are generally not the basis for allocating delegates.  It's just a factor that superdelegates can consider in deciding how to vote, and I don't see why they can't consider the popular vote in FLA regardless of whether the primary was "official."

    Of course, other events may change the way superdelegates view the race in any case. Olbermann spent a lot of time on Obama's speech tomorrow on race and religion, which is now being compared to JFK's Houston speech in 1960 in importance.

    [ Parent ]

    Except (1.00 / 0) (#217)
    by Andy08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:41:40 PM EST
    that JFK wasn't trying to wash away the embarassment of a 20 years relationship with Wright.

    This speech will be worse than Romney's.

    [ Parent ]

    Romney's speech was horrible for (none / 0) (#225)
    by litigatormom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:58:24 PM EST
    other reasons. Remember "faith is not possible without liberty, and liberty is not possible without faith"?  It doesn't matter what religion you believe in, as long as you believe in some religion?

    Obama's speech presents a difficult challenge, because it involves both race and religion, and must explain the nature of his relationship with Wright.  But at least I don't think Obama will be telling us that atheists and agnostics are not entitled to or able to enjoy the blessings of liberty.

    [ Parent ]

    It's a very tall order (none / 0) (#231)
    by andgarden on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:05:38 PM EST
    Frankly, I'm about ready to give up on the WH this November. I can't fathom how Obama can recover from this.

    [ Parent ]
    Great (5.00 / 1) (#236)
    by litigatormom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:11:42 PM EST
    Our frontrunner is about implode, and his close challenger will not be accepted as legimate by the supporters of the frontrunner.

    The next time I write a GBCW diary, it won't be a blog I'm leaving. It will be the country. McCain wins, it's time to start looking at qualifying to practice law in Toronto.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm pretty much on that page too (none / 0) (#238)
    by andgarden on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:13:23 PM EST
    If this were just the apparent end of Hillary's campaign, I'd be a little dour, but the fact that this is shaping up to be the end of Democratic chances at taking back the WH makes me feel ill.

    [ Parent ]
    Our only hope (5.00 / 1) (#241)
    by litigatormom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:17:18 PM EST
    That the economy and the war are both going soooo disastrously in November that even the McSame-smitten press corpse cannot keep McSame's candidacy afloat.

    Now that's a hell of a thing to hope for.

    [ Parent ]

    How silly he must be. So the DNC (none / 0) (#227)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:00:03 PM EST
    is not going to "let" the super-delegates count the results in Florida?  Dean and Brazile are going to exercise mind control now, having screwed up the damage control from their stupid decisions?

    It is not about "letting" Clinton count or not count the popular vote.  How would she do so?  How would she be prevented from doing so?  Details, please!

    Btw, no one can prevent me from counting the votes of 1.7 million Americans, either.  I just dare Dean and Brazile telling me what I can or cannot think.  That is just . . . owwwwwww, oh my head, oh make it stop, it's the Donnamatong beaming its bad rays at my brain, owwwwwww it hurts. . . .

    [ Parent ]

    Jedi mind tricks (none / 0) (#237)
    by litigatormom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:12:47 PM EST
    "These are not the popular votes you are looking for...."

    [ Parent ]
    Over (none / 0) (#28)
    by Step Beyond on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:35:45 PM EST
    I think that this was absolutely it for a revote. But that's just my opinion.

    [ Parent ]
    i really doubt.... (none / 0) (#54)
    by DudeE on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:43:38 PM EST
    ...there's a reasonable chance for a revote.  Too many cooks in that kitchen to come to some kind of agreement.

    In the end, I'll blame Dean for not taking the leadership role.  The DNC playing a silly game of chicken with the legislature and who lost?  The voters.

    [ Parent ]

    The RNC penalized (none / 0) (#122)
    by learningcurve on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:07:00 PM EST
    their primary voters as well. Because the primary is decided on that side now, and the late Republican voters are already disenfranchised, it won't matter.

    Party primaries aren't fair.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by fuzzyone on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:15:41 PM EST
    Not sure why they could not get it together.  I think the chances of Fla delegates being seated, especially if MI has a primary, are not very good (unless they don't matter, which actually is not all that unlikely).  

    I think the best thing for Obama to do is make some kind of compromise.  The best is probably to seat them as is but with the 50% penalty that should have been assessed under the party rules in the first place.

    Oh, and have I mentioned that the DNC is a bunch of idiots.

    [ Parent ]

    Think this is the way to go (none / 0) (#38)
    by jcsf on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:39:51 PM EST
    For a variety of reasons:

    a. Suggested by the most important Florida democratic politician - Nelson
    b. Was the EXACT same penalty that the republican side imposed upon THEIR Florida delegates.
    c. Assesses something for not following the rules.
    d. Moves the process along, settling things.  

    [ Parent ]

    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by tek on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:20:05 PM EST
    All the DNC has to do now is refuse to seat Hillary's FL delegates and there's no way she's the nominee.  Hillary, we hardly knew ye!

    [ Parent ]
    You're assuming (none / 0) (#20)
    by cmugirl on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:32:54 PM EST
    The supers won't take that into consideration - they were all on the ballot and people voted.

    [ Parent ]
    V.v. - awful news for the Democratic party (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by rilkefan on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:34:38 PM EST
    and incidentally for HRC.

    [ Parent ]
    Bad for any Dem nominee (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:39:57 PM EST
    as if you think this would help Obama win votes if he is the nominee in Florida, you haven't been reading the Florida press.  Clinton actually has a better chance than he does -- but neither now stands a good chance of winning as many as needed to put Florida in the Dem column in the Electoral College.

    [ Parent ]
    What does the Florida press say, for those of us (none / 0) (#249)
    by derridog on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:44:14 PM EST
    who don't live there?

    [ Parent ]
    Ok, so we're looking at a floor fight (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:14:32 PM EST
    This is going to get very ugly.

    Hillary's strategy (none / 0) (#159)
    by MKS on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:17:17 PM EST
    on Florida is similar to her health care strategy:  All or nothing.....We'll see how it works out....

    But with health care, one can always take a fall-back position; not so with a re-vote in Florida because it appears time's up to plan one.

    [ Parent ]

    I truly believe that the democratic party (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by athyrio on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:15:00 PM EST
    has been engaged in a conspiracy against Hillary since the get go....Anything they can do to further Obama is what they will do...So sad...

    Amen. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by tek on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:22:17 PM EST
    The really bad thing is that we all will suffer for their bewildering shenanigans.  Obama will have an almost insurmountable battle against McCain, and now, he's turned much of the Democratic constituency against him.

    We Need A Better Party!!

    [ Parent ]

    So sad and I think shortsighted (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by vigkat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:36:38 PM EST
    But so be it.  We probably don't deserve to win at this point.  One of the worst primaries ever and no sign of any respite.  Insanity reigns.

    [ Parent ]
    Vigkat (none / 0) (#239)
    by litigatormom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:13:35 PM EST
    Are you vigilant meerkat?

    [ Parent ]
    That conspiracy will justify (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by learningcurve on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:08:57 PM EST
    her run as an independent. What else can she do? It wasn't fair.

    [ Parent ]
    That conspiracy will justify (none / 0) (#130)
    by learningcurve on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:08:46 PM EST
    her run as an independent. What else can she do? It wasn't fair.

    [ Parent ]
    They won't retract the penalty (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by debcoop on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:21:44 PM EST
    The Rules Committee, even if they decide to seat the Florida delelgates as is   can have their decision appealed and wait until the Convention.  So they can't rescind it becaus eI am sure Obama has partisans on the Rules committee....like I know Donna Brazille is on the Rules committee...and she is a covert Obama supporter.

    So the credentials committee at the convention has 25 members appointed by Howard Dean and 3 apiece from each state delelgation appointed by who won the state vote....Obama has won more states than she has...The Credentials Committee will not seat the Florida delegation if it gives Hillary the nomination.  Even so there could be a pro Hillary Minority report out of the committee to go to the floor of the Convention.  He leads in pledged delelgates there....She loses.

    I must agree with BTD the only hope she had for a win ....and a lelgitimate win was to revote in Florida.

    Michigan voting and Florida not voting means her popular vote margin from Florida could be nearly erased....There is nothing good about this at all.

    She may be right about seating them...but that doesn't matter.

    Revoting could have given her the legitimacy she needed going into the convention.  I have trouble seeing what argument she gets to make.....Big states I think is insufficient....she needed at least 2 out of the 3  leg of the stool.

    Covert? (none / 0) (#13)
    by tek on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:24:32 PM EST
    Did you say Donna Brazile is a Covert Obama supporter? LOL!

    [ Parent ]
    Undeclared then! (none / 0) (#45)
    by debcoop on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:41:22 PM EST
    Let me further amend....If Barack Obama implodes in his polling numbers then she has an legitimate argument ....And sad to say the Revernd Jeremiah Wright may do that to Obama in the primary or maybe not...Democratic primary voters do not respond like general elelction voters....Even sadder I think the Reverend Wright may have already had an irreparable effect for November.  This may be Obama's swift boat moment.

    [ Parent ]
    And he's giving a speech tomorrow so I wonder (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Angel on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:46:27 PM EST
    if that will help/hurt his polling.  We'll just have to wait and see what he says and how the MSM reacts.  But for Hillary to drop out now would be stupid.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama has to be able to win (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:31:50 PM EST
    With the Jan. 29 vote counted in it's entirety or Clinton supporters will not consider his victory legitimate.
    I am developing serious doubts (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:32:54 PM EST
    that anyone cares what clinton supporters think except other clinton supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    When Clinton supporters (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:33:48 PM EST
    Stay home in November it'll all be a little too late.


    [ Parent ]
    my honest impression is (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:35:25 PM EST
    that many are prepared to lose as long as Hillary is not the nominee.
    they are celebrating this over at americblog

    [ Parent ]
    I know (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:36:59 PM EST
    That's what I figured.


    [ Parent ]
    Watching Tweety... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by DudeE on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:48:29 PM EST
    ...and Andrea Mitchell - who purportedly "covers the Clinton campaign" - both mocking Bill Clinton for having the gall to claim that Clinton winning the popular vote raises some legitimate issues about the victor in the primary.

    In other Hardball propaganda, cut to Obama defending his wimpy record on Iraq by pointing to Clinton's.

    He is running the "I'm not Hillary" campaign and it's unfortunately working with the boneheads in cable news.

    [ Parent ]

    My view is diametrically opposed to this (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:34:59 PM EST
    A revote was absolutely necessary for the legitimacy of our nominee.

    For Hillary, I believe this development makes her contest to be viewed as the legitimate nominee impossible. She will not be viewed as the popular vote winner now. She can not claim the will of the people.

    She can now only hope to overturn the will of the people.

    I will not sign up for that myself.

    If this is not reversed, I believe Hillary should cut a deal now, drop out and accept the VP slot, for the good of the Party.

    If it takes whupping Obama's butt in PA, then take it to PA, but beyond that, she should drop out.

    Obama won't be considered (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:36:16 PM EST
    Legitimate without FL seated as is.

    He can not claim the will of the people.


    [ Parent ]

    Obama has already lost (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by dianem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:44:06 PM EST
    Remember the "Wright" story. Check out Rasmussen. They did a poll on it. 2/3 of their poll respondents had heard about it. TWO-THIRDS. And they didn't like it at all. The story broke in the general media on friday, and it's monday. This is huge.  They're calling it "The Wright Effect". If Obama can pull out of this by the convention, then he might actually win the election, but it's a longer shot than ever. If Clinton loses the primary, she would be wise to sit this election out. Her presence on the ballot won't help Obama and it won't help her, either.

    [ Parent ]
    If Clinton drops out FL will be seated as is (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Manuel on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:51:24 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Saying that you won't count the results of the (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by litigatormom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:37:42 PM EST
    primary unless one of two candidates drops out -- thus ending the contest -- is not exactly legitimating the primary.

    [ Parent ]
    OF course he can (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:40:33 PM EST
    He leads NOW. A non-event will not take away his lead.

    Florida is lost of course so we will need to get to 270 some other way.

    [ Parent ]

    No he can't (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:42:58 PM EST
    You can't claim the popular vote, no one can claim the popular vote, when 1.7 million votes are ignored.

    [ Parent ]
    He won;t have to (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:48:06 PM EST
    he will claim the pledged delegate lead and Clinton will have no argument to counter that in terms of the will of the people.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course that's what he'll do (none / 0) (#81)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:52:38 PM EST
    The challenge is not to describe and justify this obvious course of action.

    The challenge is to get Clinton supporters to care about the GE.

    [ Parent ]

    Put her on the ticket (none / 0) (#97)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:59:36 PM EST
    I have already said that.

    [ Parent ]
    That will be even more of an insult (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:13:08 PM EST
    The Clinton support that has been hardened by the tone of this campaign will still stay home.

    [ Parent ]
    I am sure she will not want to be on (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:24:39 PM EST
    the losing obama ticket.

    [ Parent ]
    As much as I like Obama (none / 0) (#173)
    by MKS on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:21:32 PM EST
    a Hillary/Obama ticket makes more sense than an Obama/Hillary ticket....

    Hillary is stymied by the process....She should have fought harder for a re-vote....especaiily since Obama is having a tough time with Wright....A Florida re-vote would have given her a plausible way to claim real victory over Obama....  

    [ Parent ]

    Are you (none / 0) (#73)
    by PlayInPeoria on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:48:41 PM EST
    going to figure out how he can get to 270? What states will he have to take to win?

    [ Parent ]
    I think SUSA already has (none / 0) (#95)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:59:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    she sould not drop out (5.00 / 6) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:37:11 PM EST
    at least until the pastor and his implications are fully explored.
    they could change everything.

    [ Parent ]
    If Obama doesn't address this (none / 0) (#41)
    by andgarden on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:40:31 PM EST
    he will be blown out in November. I can barely stand to watch.

    [ Parent ]
    The pastor (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by Andy08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:05:58 PM EST
    relationship is irreversible. There is nothing he can say that will change his past, his last 20 years of embracing this man.

    [ Parent ]
    Absolutely not -- I am convinced now (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:43:07 PM EST
    that Obama cannot win the GE because of the pastor as well as other issues so badly handled by his campaign lately.

    The only reason for doing as you suggest would be so that Obama, not Hillary, would be blamed for the loss in November.  But she would be blamed, anyway.  So -- no reason now for either one to quit.  Both are invested too deeply for the sake of posterity.

    And history matters, even if the Dem Party has assured that it will not matter this fall.

    [ Parent ]

    It does not matter (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:46:58 PM EST
    if you and I and 12 million others might think that.

    There is now no way for Clinton to have a legitimate claim to be the choice of the people.

    There was a reason why I urged fighting for revotes. Apparently, none of you believe I meant it.

    For the good of the Party, Clinton needs to negotiate the number 2 slot and drop out.

    Let's try and win this thing without Florida in November.

    [ Parent ]

    Damn, BTD, you're depressing me. (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Teresa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:50:57 PM EST
    I don't want HC as VP. If Obama loses, you know it will be blamed on her. I'd rather him pick a male from a state we will need in Nov.

    [ Parent ]
    If Obama loses (none / 0) (#86)
    by stillife on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:54:35 PM EST
    they'll blame Hillary in any event.  She should have dropped out earlier, she ran a divisive campaign, blahblahblah.

    But I agree, I don't want her on the ticket as VP either.

    [ Parent ]

    She won't be the Presidential nominee (none / 0) (#94)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:58:30 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I know. I pretty much figured that out in (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Teresa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:04:00 PM EST
    mid-February. I got my hopes up after OH & TX so now I will have to grieve again.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't Grieve. (none / 0) (#182)
    by Iphie on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:24:33 PM EST
    Fight. This looks bleak, I admit. But none of us have crystal balls. We may take educated guesses -- and they may turn out to be correct, but in the end it's all speculation.

    But while we're speculating, let me speculate in another direction; let's say that Obama's campaign implodes. Doesn't seem likely, but the odds are certainly better for that this week than they were last week. I don't think the Jeremiah Wright story is going anywhere. I think that it is going to fester and grow. I think there's a good possibility that there are even more outrageously offensive clips from sermons out there. I think that now that people are looking, there's a good chance that we're going to find proof that Obama was in church when something like this was said, and that he's going to have to apologize for more bad judgment.

    So let's say that the bad news doesn't end for Obama. Let's say that Hillary does much better in PA than expected (and that's where the fighting comes in, in the form of contributions and volunteering, phone banking, etc.). Let's just say that it begins to look more and more like McCain will absolutely cream Obama in the GE. Let's say that after PA, Hillary has the mo' and Obama's negatives are growing, and Hillary again exceeds expectations in the subsequent states.

    Let's just say.

    If conventional wisdom turns against Obama and towards Hillary, it will be he, not she who will seem increasingly illegitimate. And if that's the case, the super Ds will still be there to step in and make a decision. And if that turns out to be the case (or something close to it) I don't think the super Ds will be faulted for their choice.

    [ Parent ]

    she will if the SDs have any sense (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:28:17 PM EST
    just wait until after PA.  She absolutely will be the nominee.  If not then the SDs have chosen to lose in November and I don't think they want to do that.

    [ Parent ]
    It's impossible? Totally? (none / 0) (#117)
    by Davidson on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:06:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And Obama (none / 0) (#136)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:09:32 PM EST
    Won't be President.


    [ Parent ]
    Perfect storm for the democrats (none / 0) (#164)
    by rilkefan on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:19:27 PM EST
    just became a pretty-good storm for the democrats.

    McCain still has to face the economy, his age, a worsening Iraq, the general Bush legacy, and a real campaign about his past.

    Obama just has to get past the Wright stuff and hold on to the media to win.

    [ Parent ]

    McCain (none / 0) (#180)
    by MKS on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:23:24 PM EST
    will be portrayed very affectionately as a one trick pony that has become dotty.

    The economy is really, really bad.....

    [ Parent ]

    If Obama was such a great organizer (none / 0) (#198)
    by lilburro on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:30:09 PM EST
    we could screw the media and actually organize something.

    [ Parent ]
    I did (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:54:15 PM EST
    There was a reason why I urged fighting for revotes. Apparently, none of you believe I meant it.


    [ Parent ]
    there is every way (5.00 / 6) (#118)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:06:18 PM EST
    Hillary can be the legitimate choice of the Democratic party. Seat Florida and Michigan and let the superdelegates exercise their function as intended, which doesn't mean adhering to a delegate table. They owe it to us to consider who is more electable.

    Hillary + PA + FL + MI + Superdelegates is the legitimate nominee.

    [ Parent ]

    Keep talking Jeralyn (5.00 / 3) (#226)
    by echinopsia on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:59:49 PM EST
    Hillary's not a quitter. So I'm not going to give up. VP under Obama would be an insult. She's in it to win it.

    Obama would be a disaster as the nominee and he cannot beat McCain.

    Surely the supers are smarter than to think he can.

    I just gave her another $100 worth of love, and I suggest anyone who wants her to stay in this thing and fight until after PA and the Wright disaster has time to percolate, you should too.

    We're going to need a viable, true Dem candidate to turn to when Obama implodes.

    [ Parent ]

    I sent another $100 today, too -- (none / 0) (#228)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:02:14 PM EST
    as I do every time I get really, REALLY ticked about the treatment she -- and thus we -- get.  

    With such conditions, of course, my donation policy is getting costly. :-)  

    [ Parent ]

    I'm going to hold onto that bare thread of hope (none / 0) (#132)
    by Davidson on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:09:00 PM EST
    I'm still shaking my head over all this.

    [ Parent ]
    Seat Florida? (none / 0) (#155)
    by rilkefan on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:16:05 PM EST
    What circumstances can you imagine leading up to that?  That the Obama side would accept without bolting?

    The democratic party has blanked the bed, it can't be unblanked.

    [ Parent ]

    No Jeralyn (none / 0) (#158)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:17:16 PM EST
    That is how she can be the legitimate candidate in your eyes.

    The fact that you think that Michigan is a legitimate result speaks to your bias.  

    [ Parent ]

    Obama will win the peldged delegate count (none / 0) (#161)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:18:11 PM EST
    Florida makes no difference in this. It is only a 38 delegate gain for Clinton. She will NOT catch him in the pledged delegates. Hell, Obama is waiting for you - he will agree to seat them as is ands STILL win the pledged delegate count.

    [ Parent ]
    Florida (none / 0) (#184)
    by MKS on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:24:50 PM EST
    will be seated when it no longer matters.....

    [ Parent ]
    "Something is up with super-delegates" (none / 0) (#170)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:20:38 PM EST
    Jeralyn, fyi.  According to Olbermann.  (No, I don't usually watch; someone else in the house has it on the tube. . . .)

    [ Parent ]
    I guess they're going to do something to (none / 0) (#196)
    by Teresa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:29:19 PM EST
    make her drop out before he loses PA badly.

    [ Parent ]
    You know what (none / 0) (#107)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:02:55 PM EST
    This is not for the good of the party.  This is about votes!

    People in Florida voted on January 29th and Hillary Clinton won the Florida Primary.  It's easy for you and others to say, "take the 50%" or spend 15 million and have a revote. This state is in a budget crisis and has been hit hard by the subprime fiasco. Yeah, we'll just shell out and 10 - 15 million to make Howard Dean and Obama happy.

    In addition, Crist spoke too soon.  The Republican Legislature would never agree to have a revote; they are thrilled with how this turned out.

    The Republicans got Dean good. But he'll just blame it on the voters....as you are.

    Enough. We voted!

    [ Parent ]

    Primary would have been privately financed (none / 0) (#146)
    by rilkefan on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:12:58 PM EST
    Y'all should have voted again - it would have made the state money.  No one here's blaming the voters.  FL Dems got screwed by the Gov/leg., by Dean, by the Obama campaign, by the Democratic cong. del., and to a lesser extent by the HRC campaign's failure to fight for them.  I agree with BTD that HRC can't win under these circumstances and should withdraw - she's also gotten mugged.

    Against stupidity the gods themselves strive in vain.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe not withdraw (none / 0) (#197)
    by rilkefan on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:29:50 PM EST
    Wind things down?  Suspend the campaign, in case the Rev. Wright thing goes singular?

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah righ (none / 0) (#153)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:15:43 PM EST
    This state is in a budget crisis and has been hit hard by the subprime fiasco. Yeah, we'll just shell out and 10 - 15 million to make Howard Dean and Obama happy.

    Florida's GDP is 750 Billion dollars.   It spends over a 100 million dollars on military affairs.  It spends 275 million dollars on fish and wildlife services.  

    [ Parent ]

    Do some research (none / 0) (#201)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:32:06 PM EST
    I am not going to explain the Florida economy to you.

    Obama will not win without Florida.

    [ Parent ]

    I believed you meant it, of course (none / 0) (#160)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:17:56 PM EST
    and agree this is problematic -- but for both Dems.  I think you do, too, from other comments, so why the focus on Clinton here?

    [ Parent ]
    Well (none / 0) (#195)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:29:04 PM EST
    Because I am building up to a post that none of you will like.

    That Clinton should drop out now.

    [ Parent ]

    I wish you could wait on that. The people (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by Teresa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:34:48 PM EST
    in PA, NC, etc should have their chance to vote. I understand your point (I think) that if HC cannot win the nomination, stop the campaign now and let's become unified for Nov. I just don't think people are ready for that.

    You have been the one person many of us could count on to understand how we feel and I really dread seeing your post linked everywhere as evidence that HC should quit on us.

    [ Parent ]

    Then why not (5.00 / 2) (#219)
    by zyx on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:45:49 PM EST
    just build up a post that the Democrats should just drop out now?  Because I don't think Obama can win against Rick Santorum in November after Friday, much less John McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    NoNoNo (none / 0) (#230)
    by echinopsia on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:03:05 PM EST
    Don't do it, BTD. Hold off. Let the process happen.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by lambert on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:45:33 PM EST
    Doesn't the logic go the other way?

    How on earth can you throw out the FL voters and consider the resulting win legitimate?

    1. Best would be a redo.

    2. Second best use the votes as is

    3. Third best 50/50

    4. Fourth best don't seat until after the nomination is decided

    5. Fifth best don't seat.

    Seems to me that the vote in the non-campaign is more legitimate than 50/50, since voters own their votes; it's not for the party to re-allocate them.

    Nice move, too, setting us up for a loss in the FL in the general.

    But what do my views matter? After all, I'm a racist.

    [ Parent ]

    The pledged delegate lead (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:49:56 PM EST
    has been legitimized as a measure of the will of the people.

    Obama has his will of the people argument. Now Hillary has no argument.

    [ Parent ]

    It is only legitimized (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:56:10 PM EST
    in some tautological fashion.

    It's legitimate because... it is.

    You yourself have outlined the RATIONAL reasons why it is not.

    [ Parent ]

    It does NOT matter (none / 0) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:57:44 PM EST
    what you or I think.

    The consensus is it IS a legitimate measure of the will of the people.

    Clinton needed to trump it with a popular vote win.

    She can not do that now.

    [ Parent ]

    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:03:07 PM EST
    It matters what you or I think.

    We know Obama's rational (pledged delegates) is weak, and that will be reflected in our confidence (or lack thereof) in him throughout the GE.

    I understand what you're saying about what gets accepted, but the truth, what you know to be the truth, lingers.

    I have some faith in the truth and that what I think ultimately matters in some manner of fashion, even if it never even comes close to being anything more than subtext.

    No matter how you'll slice and dice, we'll all know underneath everthing else that we nominated someone who could not have won the popular vote without the intervention of processes and procedures that were controlled by people who do not like the Clintons.


    [ Parent ]

    "The consensus"? (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by lambert on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:04:30 PM EST
    What consensus? The A-listers?

    [ Parent ]
    It's the tautological argument (none / 0) (#126)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:08:07 PM EST
    It is cause it is.  The consensus is..... the consensus.

    Even though we know .... rationally..... that it is not.


    [ Parent ]

    No (none / 0) (#156)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:16:15 PM EST
    Democrats all over the country.

    Hell, I believe there are two potential measure of the will of the people. I have argued for the popular vote measure.

    Clinton will be able to argue neither.

    [ Parent ]

    no, the will of the people is the popular vote (5.00 / 1) (#234)
    by echinopsia on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:08:08 PM EST
    The consensus is it IS a legitimate measure of the will of the people.

    Consensus of Obama supporters is not a consensus of Democrats or all voters.

    Polls show that the people believe the popular vote is the measure of the will of the people.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD, (none / 0) (#98)
    by Andy08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:59:53 PM EST
    you are forgetting the "will" of the SD.

    They play an independent role like it or not; and their role is also legitimize by the rules.

    Besides, the popular vote in FL will be certified.
    The DNC will seat at least 1 delegate.

    [ Parent ]

    They will NOT (none / 0) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:02:40 PM EST
    overturn the "will of the people."

    Hell, I do not want them to.

    Clinton has no "will of the people" argument now.

    [ Parent ]

    They will (none / 0) (#145)
    by Andy08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:12:11 PM EST
    do what they (not you, me or any of us) think
    is the best for the party in November.
    Unless of course Pelosi continues to make
    public announcements changing the role of SD; they well, then this process will indeed be illegitimate

    At this point in the game, the SD exist whether anyone
    likes it or not. So until this is changed everyone  especially Pelosi, Dean and Obama should try to
    twist and redefine their role.

    [ Parent ]

    Of course (none / 0) (#162)
    by Andy08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:19:12 PM EST
    I meant "shouldn't" in my last line...

    [ Parent ]
    "has been" legitimized? (none / 0) (#105)
    by lambert on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:02:27 PM EST
    I note the passive voice.

    Legitimized by whom? Our famously free press? Why should I accept it?

    [ Parent ]

    Don;t accept it (none / 0) (#108)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:03:05 PM EST
    The Democratic Party has.

    [ Parent ]
    your opinion on the will of the people is (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:08:15 PM EST
    just that, your opinion. It's a phrase, nothing more.

    [ Parent ]
    What will be your argument? (none / 0) (#151)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:15:04 PM EST
    that NEITHER the popular vote NOR the pledged delegate count reflect the will of the people?

    How will you argue for the will of the people?

    Of course I am offering my opinion but the facts support me.

    Neither Clinton nor Clinton supporters will have a shred of evidence to offer to argue Clinton is the choice of the people.

    this is devastating for Clinton's argument for the nomination.

    [ Parent ]

    But (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Andy08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:22:18 PM EST
    you don't have all the facts. You assume a lot of things at this point and are making a conclusion based on your assumptions. But your assumptions though might be "probable" are not facts nor are
    a given so your conclusions are highly debatable.

    [ Parent ]
    It's more of the inductive reasoning that's common (none / 0) (#229)
    by corn on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:02:21 PM EST
    here.

    [ Parent ]
    How do you know (none / 0) (#157)
    by Andy08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:16:33 PM EST
    the Democraty Party has? The post here says the DNC will meet in April to decide FL. We won't decide.

    Nor we can talk in the name of the SD or tell them what to do, just because Pelosi went on national TV and crossed the line.  

    She should be stripped of her automatic position as chair of the convention....

    [ Parent ]

    Then it is an illegitimate election (none / 0) (#115)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:05:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    in your opinion maybe (none / 0) (#124)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:07:13 PM EST
    the pledged delegate count is one part of the equation.

    [ Parent ]
    What is the other part (none / 0) (#148)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:13:20 PM EST
    for determining the will of the people? The popular vote. Clinton needed a legitimately accepted popular vote win in Florida. She will not get it now.

    She thus can not win the popular vote. Obama will be perceived as the choice of the people.

    The Super Delegates will NOT overturn the will of the people and even if they did, Clinton's nomination will be viewed as illegitimate.

    It would be a disastrous development for Democrats EXCEPT for the fact that Michigan is doing the right thing.

    [ Parent ]

    Given the asinine actions of the DNC (none / 0) (#235)
    by echinopsia on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:11:31 PM EST
    Obama will not get legitimacy out of this.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed. So if BTD is correct, then (none / 0) (#242)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:20:09 PM EST
    let me be the first to order my Clinton in 2012 bumper sticker.

    But that is predicated, of course, on BTD being correct.  As Obama says about himself, BTD is imperfect. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    I don't (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by Andy08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:54:49 PM EST
    see the logic in your argument at all.
    It cuts both ways.

    I think, BTD, you are just expressing your desire for her to drop. But there is no basis for it that I can see either in your argument or out there at this point.

    [ Parent ]

    It does not cut both ways (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:56:42 PM EST
    Obama's will of the people argument is the pledged delegate lead.

    The delegates actually do not matter AT ALL! Clinton won't win because of a 38 pledged delegate gain out of Florida. Hell, Obama should seat them.

    It is the illegitimacy of the popular vote totals that finish Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    You are making (none / 0) (