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Clinton Campaign Not Fighting For Revotes

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only.

Based on the lack of support the Clinton campaign has voiced for the Florida revote plan and its failure to propose, argue for or even discuss what to do about Florida and Michigan in concrete terms, it is my considered view that the Clinton campaign is not really interested in revotes in Florida and Michigan. Instead it appears that the Clinton camp merely wants to create some type of appearance issue against the Obama campaign.

It is foolish and it is wrong of the Clinton campaign to do this. Foolish because without revotes in Florida and Michigan, neither state will be perceived as a true win for Clinton and the popular votes cast will not be considered seriously in the popular vote calculation. These are two essential ingredients, imo, for a Clinton victory narrative.

More . . .

More importantly, it is wrong for the Democratic Party and for the people of Florida to have Florida and Michigan not fairly represented at the Democratic National Convention. It dooms the Democratic candidate for President in Florida and it makes Michigan difficult for such candidate as well.

The Clinton campaign has failed to lead on this issue, an issue that it needs for its own chances of winning the nomination.

Without a revote in Florida and Michigan, imo, Hillary Clinton has no chance to be the nominee of the Democratic Party. If she does not successfully fight for revotes for the people of Florida and Michigan, then I do not see a path for her to capture the nomination. I am at a loss to understand the Clinton campaign's actions on this issue.

< Decision Monday On Florida Re-Vote: Official Says Doesn't Look Good | Mark Penn on the General Election >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Yes, As Long As Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by bob h on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:25:52 PM EST
    is actively pushing for re-votes, which she would probably win, Obama's position is untenable.  And re-votes are the only honest solution to this problem.

    Well, no, seating the delegates is (none / 0) (#28)
    by MarkL on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:40:26 PM EST
    perfectly legitimate.
    I think Clinton may have determined that re-votes are politically impossible, which is my view as well.
    In that case all that's left is to push for seating the delegations as is.

    [ Parent ]
    Off With Their Heads (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:43:11 PM EST
    Was also perfectly legitimate at one point in time. Did not work out well in the end though.

    [ Parent ]
    There is no logical reason at all to exclude the (none / 0) (#54)
    by MarkL on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:51:40 PM EST
    FL vote. The turnout was high, both candidates were on the ballot.
    In MI, the uncommitteds can be given to Obama, which is more than generous.


    [ Parent ]
    not in my book (none / 0) (#60)
    by CST on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:54:35 PM EST
    They are currently tied (or close to it) in most Michigan polls.

    I sorta agree about Florida, although I think something like the GOP plan (50% of deleagates) may be better, but I don't think either of these will happen.

    [ Parent ]

    I Thought (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:58:38 PM EST
    That possibility was long since off the table.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, it's way more than generous (none / 0) (#72)
    by ChrisO on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:59:34 PM EST
    Edwards did well with blue collar voters, of whom Michigan has plenty. Why should his votes go to Obama, just because he was dumb ebnough to take his name off the ballot?

    [ Parent ]
    Edwards (none / 0) (#77)
    by eleanora on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:03:25 PM EST
    was still in the race in MI--has he been asked about a 50/50 split of delegates there? Seems like he would want to be dealt in somehow.

    [ Parent ]
    There is if you care about democracy and fair play (none / 0) (#86)
    by JJE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:10:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Dem turnout (none / 0) (#132)
    by fladem on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:01:07 PM EST
    in Florida was lower than GOP turnout - one of only two states where this occured.  This is for a simple reason: there was not a real campaign in Florida.  

    Which is why only 24% of Floridians wanted the delegates elected seated.

    I honestly think if Hillary does not get new votes in Florida and Michigan the she must run the table.  This in turn means if Obama wins North Carolina and Oregon he will win the nomination.

    Hillary has to get a revote to change the narrative.  Absent that I do not believe she can win the nomination.

    [ Parent ]

    I am wavering (none / 0) (#84)
    by TN Dem on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:09:46 PM EST
    on this one. I figured maybe the campaign is concerned about the expense of running a campaign in FL an are therefore dragging thier feet on setting the battle lines.

    I don't see anyway to seat MI as is, but seating FL seems plausible since Dean seeming hinted at the ability to have them seated by filing a petition to the DNC to enable them to be counted. That is a huge gamble for Clinton though.

    I was wondering why BTD discounted that as a possibility earlier. He must have read something that noted the unlikelyhood of the DNC counting the FL primary as it stands.

    [ Parent ]

    Isn't Obama saying he'll go along (none / 0) (#31)
    by Josey on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:41:03 PM EST
    with "whatever" is decided? Read: he's "following the rules" without having to stake out a position.
    At least Hillary has provided 2 scenarios.
    But the media has framed it as Hillary "making the final decision" and poor little victim Obama just has to go along.


    [ Parent ]
    So typical of Obama (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by g8grl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:49:39 PM EST
    to not take a position that might be deemed controversial.

    [ Parent ]
    I dont buy that (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Salt on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:26:34 PM EST

    she jsut said this today tow parts from NPR:

    But if the national party does not agree, she says, the states should re-do the primaries.

    "If there is to be any difference between my proposal that we count these votes and any other course of action, it should be a complete re-do of the primary and nothing else is fair," she says.

    and this is intresting

    University of Central Arkansas poll:

    Clinton 51%, McCain 36%

    Obama 27%, McCain 43%

    Conducted March 6-11, error margin


    OMG is that a national poll?? (none / 0) (#12)
    by athyrio on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:31:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Doubt it. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by JoeA on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:35:39 PM EST
    University of Central Arkansas are hardly a national polling outfit,  and I notice the margin of error is neatly cut off!  :-)

    Regardless,  "Hillary Clinton runs better in Arkansas" is hardly earth shattering news.

    [ Parent ]

    well it actually matters a great deal another (none / 0) (#32)
    by Salt on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:42:19 PM EST
    State she can turn blue in Nov. and collect the electoral votes. The margin of error is irrelevant but ....Conducted March 6-11, error margin +/- 4.5 which has no impact on a 24 percent gap between she and Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    No its for the State (none / 0) (#15)
    by Salt on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:33:21 PM EST
    too funny, but coming soon at the national level maybe, I wish I could type ..

    [ Parent ]
    National polling also ticking up for her (none / 0) (#92)
    by Cream City on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:15:46 PM EST
    Check out Gallup Tracking Poll -- statistically, about a tie, with an upward trendline only for Clinton now.  There's other good news, too -- either Dem candidate does the same against McCain.  

    And RealClearPolitics.com's averaging of polls shows a widening margin for Clinton in Pennsylvania, etc.

    [ Parent ]

    What does she mean by (none / 0) (#23)
    by litigatormom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:38:28 PM EST
    "a complete re-do"?  Is she now taking the position that a mail-in vote is not acceptable?  Or is she just stiffening her "negotiating" position in response to Obama's reluctance to agree to a mail-in?

    If she's not fighting for a re-vote, I may finally have to reconsider my support for her -- although I'm not liking Obama as much as I used to either.

    [ Parent ]

    I wonder how much influence (none / 0) (#50)
    by Kathy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:50:47 PM EST
    the super d's have right now.  Surely, they are not speaking with one voice.  I could very well see them inserting their own special interests, trying to hogtie one candidate over another.  Obama and Clinton know that the nomination is at stake here.  I imagine they are being very careful about what they say in public.

    [ Parent ]
    Pelosi (none / 0) (#82)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:07:56 PM EST
    My bet is that Pelosi is twisting arms behind the scenes.....She quashed for the second time the idea of a dream team ticket....Clearly an Obama supporter....

    I think Hillary wants an argument that Obama or Dean or whoever refused a re-vote; thus, the delegation must be seated as is....I agree that Hillary does not appear to really want a re-vote....It would be very expensive....

    [ Parent ]

    She wants them seated (none / 0) (#81)
    by eleanora on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:07:04 PM EST
    as is or a revote, AFAIK. The only thing her campaign said they wouldn't support in re-voting would be either state changing from primary to caucus.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreeing only to a redo now means (none / 0) (#117)
    by andrys on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:42:53 PM EST
    Agreeing only to a redo now means that Obama campaign will try to steamroller a caucus instead "to save money" (altruistic) and because it's more 'doable' (meeting regulations for actually getting a complete new primary in time are very daunting from what I read last week).

    So, she's going for seating as first option (which REALLY saves money) is their goal.  

      WHY can't DEAN just FINE Florida Dem $1,000,000 or $2,000,000 for the party coffers, since this would show they DID pay a penalty, but since more votes ARE needed in this contest they will use the votes from those who felt impelled to vote that day.  I've sent that idea to them 3 times but received not even an acknowledgement of the note (so why should I pay them for the fight against McCain with all that is happening).

      The Republican legislature did vote down the Dem amendment to move the primary back to Feb 5, so it's not exactly their own fault.  The original vote was on a bill that had a rider on it that this was also finally agreement to have a Paper Trail for the electronic voting.  Dems could not be viewed as voting that down, once given the opportunity to get it passed.

      As for Michigan, I don't see why they can't just Compromise and give Obama all the Uncommitted, to save money, since Michigan's Dem party really did decide to run the primary on their own.  (Why?  Obama wants a caucus there, so he could win of course, when Clinton's seniors, blue-collar workers, parents with very young children, people who just can't get out of work, etc. just could not vote in the many-hours daytime caucus that has so few voting booths that it would take people (who HAD transportation) hours to reach a polling place.  The number of people who show up at caucuses are generally 150,000 vs 1,000,000 -- and Obama camp prefers a non-representative voting method like this, because they have so many college youth who are free to join these caucuses and high-income people who can get out of work.
      Clinton should explain why a caucus won't be acceptable when a primary is the way a state normally votes.

    - Andrys


    [ Parent ]

    Re-do=re-vote. (none / 0) (#123)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:51:41 PM EST
    She was not addressing how to accomplish, just accept as-is or re-do.

    [ Parent ]
    Why do you think that? Carville and (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Teresa on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:28:04 PM EST
    the PA governor are trying at least. Have you read or heard something I haven't? Are they waiting on Obama to back himself into a corner before going full throttle?

    I think thats happened already lets (none / 0) (#18)
    by Salt on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:34:29 PM EST
    wait for about 3 weeks in the polls.

    [ Parent ]
    Clintron (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:28:20 PM EST
    I know some people consider her robotic, but come on....

    IMO (none / 0) (#14)
    by Claw on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:33:02 PM EST
    Slurs are innapropriate on either side.  Let's put "Obamabot," "Obamacon," "Clintonista," and "Cintron," to bed.  Who's with me?

    [ Parent ]
    He's just joking about ... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:34:40 PM EST
    BTD's typo in the diary title.

    [ Parent ]
    Ohhhh (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Claw on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:39:20 PM EST
    Well my point still stands.  I don't like the slurs and I don't think they have any place on this site.

    [ Parent ]
    I believe ... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:47:22 PM EST
    that is already the policy of this site.

    [ Parent ]
    Never have never will (none / 0) (#57)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:53:04 PM EST
    I'm trying to remember... I don't think I have used any slurs... sometimes moron, idiot, beer-drinker, low-knowledge, but I'm referring to myself.  For some reason no one complains when I call myself names.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (none / 0) (#73)
    by Claw on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:59:54 PM EST
    Touche sir, touche.  I usually use those slurs as well...on the way to work...and always directed at myself.  If you're in the NY or GA area give me a heads up.  We should definitely engage in a moron beer drinking session.  I'll be at the DNC in Denver, too, but I have to work...so probably no beer drinking there.

    [ Parent ]
    Ok, so you don't like slurs (none / 0) (#61)
    by JoeA on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:54:43 PM EST
    but as Robot Porter pointed out this was just making fun of BTD's typo.  

    The "slurs" haven't exactly been flying thick and fast on here.

    [ Parent ]

    For some reason (none / 0) (#78)
    by ChrisO on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:03:54 PM EST
    every time I type her name it comes out "Clintron." I always have to go back and correct it. I always type "OBama" too, I have no idea why.

    [ Parent ]
    Qwerty keyboards eh. R is beside T. (none / 0) (#190)
    by JoeA on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 06:18:21 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    haha (none / 0) (#16)
    by Kathy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:33:48 PM EST
    I saw the "Clintron" too and thought, "hehn?"

    I think this is a very tenuous position for Clinton to be in.  Every time she says something negative about Obama, she gets slammed.  I would love to see her demand he explain why he does not advocate a revote so that everyone has a say, but considering how the media is on his side, I could see them painting her as shrill and bossy again.

    Also, the DNC may be holding her by the short ones and threatening that she can't unleash anything against Obama that might make him look bad.  Remember, this is all about how she appears to the Super D's because more than likely, they decide who wins.

    If she was stalling, I'd be annoyed, but lookit: the polls are showing she has a great shot to sweep FL in a big way.  What would be her reason for not supporting a revote?  Obama's reason for fighting it is clear.  Clinton's is not.  

    [ Parent ]

    She doesn't have to go after Obama (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by badger on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:15:04 PM EST
    on this - he isn't the reason the situation exists (unless you think Donna Brazile created the situation intentionally, which is not an impossibility). The DNC is at fault here.

    All she has to do (and Obama should too) is to point out that regardless of what sanctions the DNC thinks should be applied to MI and FL, they can't include denying people the right of their vote to count. It's a simple matter of equal treatment under the law, just like any other voting rights issue.

    I've felt that way since the DNC made their ruling and would feel that way regardless of which candidate it benefits. The DNC has been completely in the wrong on this all along, and every candidate has had the responsibility to point that out - not to acquiesce in denying people the right to vote.


    [ Parent ]

    Donna Brazile is the one who pushed (none / 0) (#129)
    by andrys on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:57:06 PM EST
    ...who pushed for DAYS that Bill Clinton's comment about Obama's IRAQ VOTE record being a "fairy tale" was instead, in her conveniently distorted mind, a statement by BillC that Obama's entire Campaign was a fairy tale.  She knew that wasn't true but of course this would inflame everyone.  Either that or she was unable to comprehend a flow of thought that so many others now have seen was NOT about the campaign.

      It was to her advantage and Obama's to make this a racial thing about Obama's entire campaign and it was the first furor over this.  It galvanized the black-vote (as Michelle had said, "Wake up!") to have Bill seen as no longer a friend, as the longtime support of the Clintons still had a hold on many of them.  It was intentional, in my mind.  And they have the nerve to blame the Clintons for that.

      As for the tempest in South Carolina re what I felt was normal campaign spin on Obama's win there when Bill mentioned that Jesse had won there also, here is what Jesse himself felt.

      JesseJ and BillC had been close for a long time, and Jesse had won 11 states in 1988 and was rightfully proud of that and it was a reminder that he had and was a forerunner.  He got 7 million votes in that campaign.  Jesse made it clear that he did not take the remark as an insult, but it was useful for the Obama camp to.  What a truly cynical campaign this has been.  No 'new' politics here.

    - Andrys


    [ Parent ]

    To me, Obama's camp insults Jesse Jackson (none / 0) (#165)
    by jawbone on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:41:39 PM EST
    by saying that a mention of his SC achievements were somehow "racist" or brought a "racial" tone to the campaign.

    Oh, my.

    [ Parent ]

    Let's not rake this all over again. (none / 0) (#191)
    by JoeA on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 06:21:24 AM EST
    but to try and put Obama into a box with Jesse Jackson and define him as the black candidate is wrong.  If the point was purely that candidates had won South Carolina before and gone on to lose the nomination battle then there were other more recent examples where the person in question didn't happen to be called Jesse Jackson.

    As I understand it Bill was repeating a talking point that Mark Penn had been discussing internally earlier that day.  Why does that not surprise me.

    [ Parent ]

    They're negotiating (none / 0) (#94)
    by corn on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:16:52 PM EST
    It's still my guess/prediction that they're negotiating to seat the existing delegates.  On the surface we have Clinton saying seat them or re-vote (which she doesn't want, but knows he really doesn't want).  Obama's counter is, follow the rules, or seat them 50-50 (his low ball).  They're no doubt working to a number between this.  My guess is that Florida goes close to as is and Michigan goes, as other have suggested, uncommitted to Obama.  Other detail hashing might include the seating of super delegates, timing of announcement, some DNC face saving token penalty, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    my hope is that Hillary will say that she is done with all the pussyfooting, forget the negotiating, and come out as being 100% behind the Florida Dem plan.

    I suspect she has not been as vocal as she could be because she did not yet know what the plan was. The Florida Dems released this memo late last night, so my hope is that there are meetings all day today with the intent of crafting a response and that we will be hearing something shortly.

    [ Parent ]

    Sen. Obama Co-Sponsored Bill Creating Vote By Mail (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by toddy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:29:18 PM EST
    S.979
    Title: A bill to establish a Vote by Mail grant program.
    Sponsor: Sen Wyden, Ron [OR] (introduced 3/23/2007)      Cosponsors (3)
    Related Bills: H.R.1667
    Latest Major Action: 3/23/2007 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Rules and Administration.

    COSPONSORS(3), ALPHABETICAL [followed by Cosponsors withdrawn]:     (Sort: by date)

          Sen Cantwell, Maria [WA] - 9/27/2007
          Sen Kerry, John F. [MA] - 3/23/2007
          Sen Obama, Barack [IL] - 6/27/2007

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:SN00979:@@@P


    Yesterday (none / 0) (#63)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:56:31 PM EST
    This was referenced yesterday.  I was confused that someone was co-sponsoring a bill for mail-in but appearing to be against it in public.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, that was cosponsored a year ago... (none / 0) (#187)
    by jr on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 09:12:06 PM EST
    ...when there was probably time to set the system up.  I'm not sure we can do a straight comparison between a legislated and ordered system and what we can cobble together in two states in a matter of weeks.

    [ Parent ]
    I'd give this a little more time (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by frankly0 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:29:51 PM EST
    before I'd conclude what the Clinton campaign really has in mind.

    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:32:18 PM EST
    I think this may be a tactical move but only time will tell.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:30:34 PM EST
    I think this post is fair.  But what's funny is how the Clinton supporters react in exactly the same way as the Obama supporters did to your earlier criticism.

    If a candidate is fighting for something, you know it.  You know it because they have surrogates on every talk show, you know it because they're making that issue the headline every day.

    If you have to dig down to find some statement or another issued by Hillary that represents her "official position" on the issue, that just proves BTD's point.  It's like when you tell someone Obama doesn't have clear positions on the issues and they tell you to look at his website.

    Steve M (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Kathy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:38:26 PM EST
    I don't agree that she hasn't been fighting.  Carville et al have been pounding out the offer to raise the money.  Clinton sent the letter to Obama.  Clinton herself has said that she wants to either seat the delegates or revote, and that those are the only two options.

    Seriously, what else can she say? What else can she do?  If your argument is that she has been too timid on this, then I totally agree--but there is another side to that coin: whenever she comes out strongly against Obama, the DNC and the press beat her up, which is, frankly, insulting to Obama because the man is not a child.

    (and I also don't agree that we react in the same way.  No one yet has insulted BTD, railed against Jeralyn, or said that TL is obviously biased and whatever happened to way back when they were fair and reasonable?)

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:40:10 PM EST
    the problem is that a re-vote is still her fallback position.  Keeping the existing votes is her primary position.  It results in an unclear message.

    At this point I think she needs to just drop the idea of keeping the existing votes and get 100% behind the re-vote plan.  Persuade Debbie W-S to have a change of heart.

    [ Parent ]

    Great minds thinking alike...... n/t (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by litigatormom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:44:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:48:20 PM EST
    I get the sense that you only work a block or two away from me.  Maybe it's the brain waves.

    [ Parent ]
    You are downtown? n/t (none / 0) (#154)
    by litigatormom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:41:49 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#159)
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:52:20 PM EST
    My office is on B'way.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah (none / 0) (#107)
    by andgarden on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:35:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Surrogates (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by cmugirl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:34:14 PM EST
    Didn't she have people on the Sunday shows pushing for it?  Or am I too caught up in blog-world to realize that people outside in the fresh air  and away from their computers aren't paying that close attention?

    This would definitely be a winning issue (none / 0) (#21)
    by JoeA on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:37:37 PM EST
    for Clinton if she pushed it.


    [ Parent ]
    Yes. Ed Rendell ... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:45:32 PM EST
    acting as a surrogate for the Clinton campaign argued for revotes on MEET THE PRESS last sunday.

    [ Parent ]
    and Nita Lowey (none / 0) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:51:26 PM EST
    will this coming sunday

    [ Parent ]
    That's not enough. (none / 0) (#67)
    by ghost2 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:57:38 PM EST
    She should really go nuclear.  Unleash about 100 people on it.

    [ Parent ]
    Also Carville and Corzine (none / 0) (#97)
    by Cream City on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:19:08 PM EST
    and Corzine has been working especially hard for her, btw.

    Do we really need 100?  Some big names here carry more weight than others. . . .

    [ Parent ]

    Corzine appeared on Softballs (none / 0) (#156)
    by litigatormom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:43:22 PM EST
    on Monday to talk about the re-vote, and instead had to answer questions about Elliot "Luv Guv" Spitzer.

    [ Parent ]
    Eh (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by spit on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:38:51 PM EST
    so far on the issue, I give her a C+/B-.

    And on this issue, Obama gets D's from me, I'm afraid.

    I'd like to see them both step up and actively work harder for a solution.

    BTD, is it possible... (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by Arachnae on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:46:07 PM EST
    that the Clinton campaign is not going pedal-to-the-metal on this simply to prevent the appearance that it is nothing but a political manuveur that helps Clinton and hurts Obama? I can imagine nothing that would turn the Obama camp (by which I mean their vociferous and vitriolic online supporters) against revotes so much as Clinton coming out for revotes.

    Let the argument speak for itself.

    It's all in the timing... (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by gmo on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:47:55 PM EST
    BTD: Remember that FL & MI were completely out of play before Clinton's wins on the 4th.  Her wins brought them back into play.  Resolution and a real big push on them will only come after she wins again, in PA.  In the meantime, she builds a tepid case that "Hey, i've been asking for this all along."

    Of course, on April 23rd, it'll be too late for the "do-over" that Clinton has been requesting the whole time. So at that point, the only fair option?  Seat them as they voted in the first place, giving Clinton a huge delegate boost.

    No way MI gets seated as voted (none / 0) (#59)
    by zzyzx on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:53:26 PM EST
    If Clinton wins through the election where she was the only major candidate on the ballot, that would be far more divisive than any other solution.  If you say that elections don't matter before the vote and then later try to argue that they should matter, it doesn't come across as legitimate to those who support the other candidate.

    The only way MI and FL get seated as is if she gets the majority of pledged delegates without them and can control the credentials committee, and if that happens, she wouldn't need them anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    Depends... (none / 0) (#65)
    by gmo on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:56:34 PM EST
    ...on how much of a boost PA wins give her, and what happens between now and then.

    MI is definitely questionable. But FL? I think that's a slam dunk with this approach.  

    And if FL gets to be seated, but MI doesn't?  What do you think the reaction would be there?

    [ Parent ]

    She'd have to win BIG in PA IMO (none / 0) (#75)
    by zzyzx on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:01:24 PM EST
    Everyone is expecting a PA win.  Unless Obama suddenly takes a huge lead in the polls and then loses it, or she seriously outperforms the current expectations (which are already high), how much more of a bump will it give her than she has now with people assuming she's going to win it.

    To change expectations either Clinton has to win NC or Obama has to win PA.  Otherwise we just have the status quo.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually the Rules say that the (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:22:12 PM EST
    state's Democratic Committee is the one that submits alternative plans to the DNC for approval and/or the state's Democratic Committee appeals to the appropriate committee at the convention.  Why then did these then become a what Obama should or Clinton should discussion.  Oh wait Dr Dean decided that the candidates should decide I guess.  But wasn't it the RULES that got us here to start with.  Let's go by the rules and get the candidates out of the picture.

    No Michagan No Florida equals Republican Win GE (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Saul on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:37:36 PM EST
    End of Story

    The DNC had since May '07 to address FL's date (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by jawbone on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:49:39 PM EST
    Altho' it was in September that the FL state Dem Party agreed to go along with the Repubs' date of 1/29/08. They felt they had no choice.

    Ah, it seems like only yesterday that the Dems wore the white hats regarding vote counts in FL!

    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071217/moser

    ...to nobody's surprise, the Republican-controlled state legislature passed a law in May scheduling the state's primary for January 29. (In most states, primary dates are set by the parties.) The primary date was wrapped up in a bill mandating a paper trail for the 2008 election--a popular measure the minority Democrats could not afford to oppose. Besides, the loss of delegates was largely a toothless penalty, since according to precedent the Democrats' eventual presidential nominee controls the seating of delegates--and surely wouldn't alienate folks from the nation's largest swing state by turning them away.

    But the DNC did not leave it there. In August the rules committee voted to strip all the state's delegates unless Florida came up with an alternative to the January 29 voting. "I understand Florida's dilemma," DNC rules committee member Donna Brazile told me later. "But this is not about states' rights; this is about a process we're trying to keep some control over." Two weeks after the DNC vote, Democratic chairs in the "First Four" primary states jacked up the ante with their notorious "four-state pledge" demanding the candidates focus exclusively on them. The signees--including John Edwards, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton--agreed to do no campaigning in Florida or any other state that might try to jump the gun. And under party rules, "campaigning" means just about everything: e-mail messages; calls to voters; TV, radio or newspaper ads; rallies; hiring campaign workers; holding press conferences. The only thing Democrats are allowed to do in Florida--where folks have been complaining for years, with some justification, about being used as an ATM for the party--is fundraise.

    As Florida Democrats bayed in protest, DNC chair Howard Dean salted their wounds by opining that their votes "essentially won't count." Almost overnight, the unsavory reputation Florida Republicans had earned during the riotous Gore v. Bush 2000 recount battle was relegated to ancient history, and the Republicans' sagging hopes of carrying Florida--where Democrats scored big in the 2006 midterms--were suddenly sky-high. "The Democrats like to talk about Republicans disenfranchising black voters in Florida," state GOP chair Jim Greer shouted happily at a Black Republicans soiree. "How many delegates will the Democrats be sending from Florida to their national convention? Zero!"


    A good analysis; thanks (nt) (none / 0) (#181)
    by Cream City on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 06:53:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I respectfully disgaree. (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:08:12 PM EST
    The Clinton campaign has already publicly voiced its support for the general concept of a re-vote. Beyond that, it's really not the place of either campaign at this point to insert themselves further into any discussion over process, methodology and logistics. That's entirely within the scope of responsibility for the DNC, the Michigan Democratic Party and the Florida Democratic Party.

    At this point, neither campaign can really afford to exert undue influence over the manner in which any prospective primary votes are first cast and then tallied, and risk being publicly perceived as having its finger on the scale. That's why the Obama campaign has been roundly criticized for its threat of legal action.

    )Disclosure: I served as acting executive director for the Democratic Party of Hawaii in 2003-04.)

    She released a letter yesterday saying she (none / 0) (#1)
    by athyrio on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:24:19 PM EST
    supported first recognizing the first votes and failing that she was for revotes...didnt she?

    That is not enough (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:26:00 PM EST

    As I explain in my post.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, what is she supposed to do? (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by derridog on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:29:23 PM EST
    If she comes out too strongly on it, she will play into her critics' meme that she is pushing this for herself.  I'm curious as to precisely what you think her plan should be?

    I think Obama is dooming himself and the party.  He will undoubtedly win the nomination with this strategy, but lose the general, as the Floridians, at least, will go for McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with the question (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:38:52 PM EST
    I am not sure what more they can really do

    [ Parent ]
    Lead (none / 0) (#30)
    by JJE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:40:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    could you be less specific? (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:43:54 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    According to SUSA, Obama already loses (none / 0) (#39)
    by halstoon on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:45:19 PM EST
    FL, though by 2 points, and still handily defeats McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, and if Gore had won his home state (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by litigatormom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:47:11 PM EST
    then he wouldn't have needed FLA.  So the recount and the Supreme Court atrocity weren't important.

    Dean is supposed to advocate a "50 state strategy."  Is it now a 48 state strategy, with the two states excluded having a large number of  electoral votes?

    If Dean is willing to cede FLA and MI because a poll in March says Obama can win without them, then he is a complete knucklehead. Or worse.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, now there's a concept (none / 0) (#152)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:39:16 PM EST
    Let's stake our public position regarding the re-vote of a state primary, upon a political opinion poll taken in early March for an election that's still eight months away.

    [ Parent ]
    I think the only way for her to come out (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by litigatormom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:43:42 PM EST
    "strongly" for a re-vote is to give up the position that the delegates ought to be seated on the basis of the prior vote.  At that point, I think it would be hard (though not impossible with so many members of the MSM suffering from CDS) for anyone to claim that she is "trying to change the rules."  The rules permit a re-vote. And it would make clear that Obama's only basis for opposing a re-vote is to maintain his delegate lead.

    The DNC rules were not imposed to make any candidate's delegate lead insurmountable. They were imposed to dissuade FLA and MI from having primaries before NH and IA.  The early FLA and MI are not going to count, regardless of whether or not they "should." So anyone who opposes a re-vote (unless she also favors seating on an as is basis) is for disenfranchisement of FLA and MI for his or her sole benefit.

    [ Parent ]

    I think BTD is making the point that (none / 0) (#4)
    by JoeA on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:26:29 PM EST
    she isn't exactly pushing it, and she doesn't have her surrogates pushing it.

    [ Parent ]
    I have not (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:34:30 PM EST
    seen a Clinton surrogate on tv in weeks who did not push this.
    I dont know what you mean when you say they are not pushing it.
    what EXACTLY should they do? wear sandwich boards?


    [ Parent ]
    But her surrogates (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:56:48 PM EST
    Have put up the funding for it.

    [ Parent ]
    btd, you're off J's X-mas card list for sure...

    fwiw, I agree with you. I think she isn't "really" pushing for a revote, and if there is no revote I think she's toast.

    She might also be toast with a revote, but I think that is less certain.

    The only logical conclusion is that she disagrees w/both of us - she thinks she has a better chance of getting the nom w/o the revote.

    Considering she has better intel on the SD's than us, she may well be right...

    I dont quite get this logic (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:52:50 PM EST
     I think she isn't "really" pushing for a revote, and if there is no revote I think she's toast.

    [ Parent ]
    Seriously? Ok. (1.00 / 1) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:58:48 PM EST
    1) I think she isn't "really" pushing for a revote

    I'm not sure how to say this any clearer.

    and 2) if there is no revote I think she's toast.

    W/o a revote (that goes enough in her favor) I think she doesn't get the nom.


    [ Parent ]

    so (none / 0) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:41:13 PM EST
    why exactly would she not be pushing it.
    do you honestly think she does not want to win?


    [ Parent ]
    My first interaction w/you, (none / 0) (#127)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:56:18 PM EST
    and it's a bizarre waste of time.

    Reread my original post. All of your questions are answered there.

    [ Parent ]

    no they are not (none / 0) (#136)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:08:31 PM EST
    it makes no sense at all unless you explain why/how she could possibly think she has a "better chance of winning without a revote"
    most people think she has no chance of winning without a revote.


    [ Parent ]
    Good God. (1.00 / 1) (#142)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:13:59 PM EST
    Read the last sentence of my original post.

    [ Parent ]
    for example (none / 0) (#143)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:14:41 PM EST
    your aside about the supers makes no sense.
    if she trys to take the nomination without a majority of something the convention and the party will explode.
    how about this explanation:
    she is doing things behind the scenes we do not know about and she DOES IN FACT want a revote?
    I know it crazy but it is possible.

    [ Parent ]
    What a waste of time. (1.00 / 1) (#149)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:33:28 PM EST
    So, you have a different opinion. Cool. Next time be upfront and just say that in your first comment, it'll save a lot of aggravation.

    [ Parent ]
    whatever (none / 0) (#153)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:40:15 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Maybe (none / 0) (#125)
    by magster on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:53:11 PM EST
    she thinks that with revote, Obama may win MI, and then he says "see, I win big states. How's that?"  MI is winnable for Obama.

    It bugs me that it seems like Obama's campaign stopped when he got the math on his side.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe Part II (none / 0) (#128)
    by magster on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:56:48 PM EST
    Maybe her fundraising sucks, and revotes would kill her in states she might otherwise win or be respectable in after PA.  If Obama is still crushing in funraising after this last week, he should use the revotes as an opportunity.

    BTW: Isn't it curious how neither campaign is boasting about fundraising like they did last month?

    [ Parent ]

    This is the downside of being a fighter (none / 0) (#38)
    by zzyzx on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:45:01 PM EST
    Clinton is a fighter.  That's one of her strengths.  However, that can backfire and I think this is one of those cases.  The revote is a compromise solution but she's still fighting for the complete victory of the delegates being seated as is.

    Sometimes you have to know when to let go of the battle in order to win the war.  

    It's not their job to advocate (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:46:04 PM EST
    It's Dean's job to resolve this.

    I think we're about two posts away from.

    "DO IT MY WAY OR YOUR ALL COWARDS, DAMMIT!"

    The thesis of the post above is that the voters who voted on Jan. 29 wasted their time.

    Nice message to send to FL, BTD.


    No -- she's already had Carville (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by katiebird on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:50:25 PM EST
    raising money for a re-vote -- that HAD to come with her approval.

    But, she HAS to keep what she's already won on the table.  That's her hard-line.

    Her compromise is the Re-vote.  Which she has said she supports and has found a way to pay for.

    [ Parent ]

    I see that now (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:51:21 PM EST
    I forgot about that.


    [ Parent ]
    As Opposed To (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:53:11 PM EST
    Telling the a majority of Florida voters who, according to recent polls, now favor a revote, 'we don't care what you think'. That would be better?

    Seems to me, that argument is a losing one.

    [ Parent ]

    That wasn't the poll question (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:54:53 PM EST
    Nice try.

    Poll question:  Would you rather count the Jan. 29 vote or have another vote?

    Go ask that question.


    [ Parent ]

    I Am Not (none / 0) (#98)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:21:48 PM EST
    Trying to do anything. The issue of the Florida vote counting is off the table. Given that, the question is what are the options now. Or how do we move forward.

    So asking your question is counterproductive for the Democratic party, and particularly bad for Clinton because it will create sparks and no fire.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh wait (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:49:20 PM EST
    The Clinton camp did put up the funding.

    Bad Post, BTD.

    Obama's not coming through for you, so you're blaming Clinton!


    BTD, what should Clinton be doing to lead? (none / 0) (#51)
    by jawbone on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:51:12 PM EST
    I thought she was--offering to split cost of primary, to go along with mail-in (Obama says he'll bring in the Bush DOJ on that plan)...what ought she do?

    The FL Repubs got a twofer on their decision to move the FL date earlier--they got to create a problem within the DNC, and, now, they'll get to say they're the good guys on letting votes count.

    DNC should do say seat the delegates with, as menitoned earlier, one half vote for each delegate. Not good enough for FL, but covers both FL and MI.

    I imagine Obama will contest that--since it gives Hillary votes.

    While I agree that Clinton isn't fighting... (none / 0) (#55)
    by sweetthings on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:52:16 PM EST
    I'm not at a loss to understand why.

    First, a getting a revote to work looks almost impossible right now. And not because of the DNC or Obama but because of local Florida politicians, almost all of whom are Hillary Superdelegates. Hillary can't exactly put them on the hot spot, because she'll need them come November. So pretty much all she can do is stay out of it.

    Second, it lets her focus on the argument that the delegations should be seated as is. Personally, I don't think that's likely to happen, but even if it doesn't, the whole mess creates legitimacy problems for Obama. She needs that kind of uncertainty if she's going to win over Supers at the convention.

    Finally, if she can push the perception that this mess is all Obama's fault, it gives her an additional attack angle.

    Hillary's playing the hand she has, as is Obama. Hard to blame either of them for that.

    Here's what I don't understand (none / 0) (#68)
    by zzyzx on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:58:18 PM EST
    First, a getting a revote to work looks almost impossible right now. And not because of the DNC or Obama but because of local Florida politicians, almost all of whom are Hillary Superdelegates. Hillary can't exactly put them on the hot spot, because she'll need them come November. So pretty much all she can do is stay out of it.

    I don't understand why the FL SDs came out against a revote.  There's no question that Clinton's longshot hopes at this point pretty much require this.  Why are they opposed.  It makes no sense and it definitely gives cover to any Obama supporters who want to say no for strategic purposes.

    Personally, I don't think that's likely to happen, but even if it doesn't, the whole mess creates legitimacy problems for Obama.

    The fact that Obama would be following the rules and Clinton would be trying to change them would make that a hard argument.  "We all agreed these delegates wouldn't be seated before the election started," is a pretty potent counterargument.  

    [ Parent ]

    "We all agreed... (none / 0) (#131)
    by plf1953 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:00:14 PM EST
    these delegates wouldn't be seated before the election started ..."

    I'm sorry .... but no one agreed to this as much as you and the Obama campaign want us to think they did.

    This is what the candidates agreed, no more no less:

    THEREFORE, I _____, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge
    I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.

    The only agreement was not to campaign in FL and MI.  Nothing more.

    Hell, the candidates don't have ther power to dictate who's seated and who isn't.  That's the DNC's responsibility alone.

    Get your facts straight or refrain from posting here.

    [ Parent ]