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Obama: Cult , Evangelicalism or Political Campaign?

I'm so glad to see I'm not the only one a bit turned off by the messianic fervor Barack Obama is generating. Jake Tapper at ABC News lists a few others.

Katherine Greier at TPM Cafe, an Obama supporter, writes:

"Excuse me, but this sounds more like a cult than a political campaign. The language used here is the language of evangelical Christianity – the Obama volunteers speak of 'coming to Obama' in the same way born-again Christians talk about 'coming to Jesus.'...So I say, we should all get a grip, stop all this unseemly mooning over Barack, see him and the political landscape he is a part of in a cooler, clearer, and more realistic light, and get to work."

Joe Klein at Time Magazine points out the Obama gap between inspiration and substance:

More...

there was something just a wee bit creepy about the mass messianism — "We are the ones we've been waiting for" — of the Super Tuesday speech and the recent turn of the Obama campaign. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different. It's different not because of me. It's different because of you." That is not just maddeningly vague but also disingenuous: the campaign is entirely about Obama and his ability to inspire. Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause — other than an amorphous desire for change — the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is.

Obama is about inspiration. Hillary is about knowledge and competence. That's why she wants debates and he does not. He can't keep up in that arena. His stump speech is always the same and it's getting tiresome. Klein says:

There is an odd, anachronistic formality to Obama's stump speech: it is always the same. It sets his audiences afire, but it does not reach very far beyond them. It is no accident that Obama is nearly invincible in caucus states, where the ability to mobilize a hard core of activists is key — but not so strong in primaries, where more diverse masses of people are involved. He should be very worried that this nomination is likely to be decided in the big working-class primary states of Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania.

Tapper quotes Vanity Fair writer James Wolcott, who voted for Hillary:

"(p)erhaps it's my atheism at work but I found myself increasingly wary of and resistant to the salvational fervor of the Obama campaign, the idealistic zeal divorced from any particular policy or cause and chariot-driven by pure euphoria. I can picture President Hillary in the White House dealing with a recalcitrant Republican faction; I can't picture President Obama in the same role because his summons to history and call to hope seems to transcend legislative maneuvers and horse-trading; his charisma is on a more ethereal plane, and I don't look to politics for transcendence and self-certification."

Barack Obama is a first term Senator running for President. As with all candidates, a speechwriter writes his major addresses. His words aren't gospel and even if they were, gospel is what I expect from Republicans, like Huckabee. This race should be about politics and governance.

I hope the hype stops soon. Maybe if more of us write about it, it will.

Update: There are over 200 comments on this thread, it is now closing. Thanks for your thoughts.

< Politics As Usual: Obama Refusing To Debate Clinton | Obama And Clinton Raise Big Dollars >
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    Re: (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:27:00 AM EST
    What's interesting is that despite the complaints in the netroots about the religious tone and content of Obama's speeches, "non-religious" voters are one of his best demographics.

    Do you have a link for that? (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by rebecca on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:07:52 AM EST
    I find it very strange but strange things are happening.  I know that one of the first things that made me cautious about him was his lecturing about religion and the Democratic party.  

    [ Parent ]
    The thing that really bothered me (3.00 / 2) (#154)
    by felizarte on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:37:11 PM EST
    in the articles, was at the very end, which is not included in the main post above which says:

    ["When Morgan Freeman comes over to greet Obama, the senator begins bowing down both hands in worship. `This guy was president before I was,' says Obama, referring to Freeman's turn in Deep Impact and, clearly, getting a little ahead of his own bio. Next, a nod to Bruce Almighty: `This guy was God before I was.'"]

    even in jest, to say 'This guy was God before I was . . .' sounds almost blasphemous.  A sincere Christian would not even think that, let alone say it loud.

    Then again, as someone once said, "jokes are always said in earnest."

    This is going to cause his 'movement' to implode.  It will no be long  before someone tags him with the "anti-Christ" label.  

    [ Parent ]

    This is disturbing (none / 0) (#159)
    by hookfan on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:45:55 PM EST
    I've emerged from over 40 years wandering in evangelical land and I'll tell ya if they get ahold of statements like this they'll respond just like they did with "the Last Temptation".
       Consider that 30% or so (from Tony Compolo) of Evangelicals are Democratic, this could be costly politically.

    [ Parent ]
    I thought that it was unfair to insinuate (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by felizarte on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:39:20 PM EST
    that he was a Muslim because he has clearly stated he is a Christian.  But if he is aware of this kind of "cultish" adulation of him by his supporters, and not doing anything to discourage it, I do understand that as a politician, it is probably to his disadvantage to do so.  But I have since come to believe, that he has deliberately used code words associated with Christian evangelicals to neutralize any lingering impressions that he is Muslim, which I also understand coming from a politician.

    But quotes such as the above, which he himself spoke, tend to make me question his respect for his own avowed faith and deliberately misleads people who respect their faith as well as those of others.  He did not have to make a jest of it.

    [ Parent ]

    "Muslim" (none / 0) (#203)
    by hookfan on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:57:22 PM EST
      Apparently, for some, it's not allowed to change one's opinion about one's faith. Not you but those who send fliers out unfairly accusing him of being a manchurian muslim. Whether Obama is a hypocrite, I don't know. I do know his levity like this in the context with his Messianic sounding speech when used by the Republicans will disenfranchise him with evangelicals. And not only the Dobson crowd. Many AAs are Evangelical and this could turn them off.

    [ Parent ]
    uprated (none / 0) (#194)
    by hookfan on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:28:37 PM EST
    to compensate for, in my opinion, unjustified abuse

    [ Parent ]
    I swear on a stack of Darwins (none / 0) (#201)
    by echinopsia on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:49:43 PM EST
    I didn't see your Antichrist comment first.

    The fundies are gonna love this guy.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually I have my doubts (none / 0) (#206)
    by hookfan on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:08:32 PM EST
    Tho I think Obama hopes so. Once Repubs smear him openly with alleged "ties" to Nation of Islam, coupled with hypocritical sounding statements like this, and use of messianic type statements focusing on himself as Messiah or just as bad his followers, the antichrist label could very well stick. To many Evangelicals, "anti" means "substitute". If he is viewed as substituting a secular movement or himself there will be the devil to pay.

    [ Parent ]
    We secular types don't take kindly to people (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Geekesque on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:15:06 AM EST
    who placed their faith in Bush's good faith intentions regarding Iraq.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, yes (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:28:44 AM EST
    Clearly that subject has EVERYTHING to do with religion.  Snore.

    [ Parent ]
    By the way, I LOVED your Mydd diary (none / 0) (#57)
    by Geekesque on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:31:46 AM EST
    about how Clinton was having no money troubles and had no disadvantage vs Obama.

    Great stuff.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:44:07 AM EST
    It seems like both campaigns are going to be just fine money-wise.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep. Loaning your campaign $5 Million bucks (none / 0) (#83)
    by Geekesque on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:46:49 AM EST
    and failing to contest half the states in play is a sign of a campaign with cash to burn.

    [ Parent ]
    Antichrist (none / 0) (#199)
    by echinopsia on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:46:41 PM EST
    Just wondering, has anybody brought this up yet?

    For the record, I'm an atheist. All forms of religion look creepy to me.

    [ Parent ]

    I think that's easy to understand (none / 0) (#189)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:08:04 PM EST
    as from those I know, many of them college students, they are resistant to organized religion.  So they call themselves non-religious.  But they actually are seeking spiritual (if you will) inspiration.

    He is the New Age candidate.

    [ Parent ]

    Another Failure of MSM (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by Alvord on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:35:41 AM EST
    In the lead up to the Iraq war, the MSM largely failed in its duty to be suitably skeptical about the administrations claims regarding Iraq. The fact that there were no WMD, despite press assurances to the contrary, is the most glaring example.

    It appears to me that the media may be on the verge of failing again. The coverage of Obama has been all about his large crowds, endorsements and campaign contributions. There is nary a note of skepticism in the media about his qualifications to be president. Hillary on the other hand has not been treated so kindly (to put it mildly.)

    I think we may look back at this period as another massive press failure.

    Obama's Web site (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:43:52 AM EST
    I'm asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring real change in Washington...I'm asking you to believe in yours.


    Yes - THE ONE is scary (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Josey on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:13:38 AM EST
    Close your eyes real tight, click your heels together - and BELIEVE!


    [ Parent ]
    ah yes, thats real scary (none / 0) (#142)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:13:48 PM EST
    inspire people to take an active role in their government. To participate in making the changes that they want.

    As opposed to what? Sit back passively and let Hillary fix everything?

    Who is being the cultist here?

    [ Parent ]

    Cult like..... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:47:50 AM EST
    Are some of Hillary's supporters not equally cultish?

    I agree it's troubling, but Obama ain't the only one.  Anybody who is slavishly devoted to any of these piker candidates needs their head examined.

    Except for the Paul cult...they've got their heads on pretty straight in my book:)

    Is there evidence for that? (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Camorrista on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:04:31 PM EST
    I'm not comfortable tossing arounds words like 'cult' and even less comfortable turning to Joe Klein to support an argument, but a piece in today's Times by Adam Nagourney (hardly a fan of Hillary Clinton) comes to this from another perspective.

    To quote:

    "Is this campaign a series of surges of enthusiasm, often powered by the younger voters who form long lines waiting to hear Mr. Obama speak, that set expectations that are not met at the voting booth?"

    And:

    "...once again — as in New Hampshire — the result on Tuesday did not match the fervor that had been signaled by Mr. Obama’s dramatic march of rallies across the nation leading up to the vote..."

    Obama has some real strengths as a politician, but the longer he hides them behind the mask of his "inspirational" persona, the greater his vulnerability with those who want politicians to help them navigate their daily lives rather than inspire them to tears and applause at revivalist-like rallies.

    My cousin Leah, 71, a retired union organizer and a life-long Democrat, asked me to take her to an Obama rally.  She loved the atmosphere, and loved him, but on the way home, she murmured, "I wish he'd said one word about Medicare and Social Security."

    My cousin has grave reservations about Senator Clinton (her public chilliness, Bill, her pants-suits) but I'm pretty my cousin she'll vote her.  It's not for me to argue whether that's a wise vote, but I know there are far more people like Leah who will vote than those adoring youngsters at Obama's arena tent-meetings.  

    We're electing a president, not the head of a tabernacle, or the guru of a self-help movement, and until Obama (and his admirers) wholly embrace that reality, articles like Klein's, and Tapper's, and Nagourney's will keep on coming.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/us/politics/07dems.html?ref=politics

    [ Parent ]

    Except For the Paul Cult.... (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:01:11 AM EST
    kdog, your comment says it all. Nice one.

    [ Parent ]
    Paul? Fiat Money Paul? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:08:19 AM EST
    The man is a lunatic. He may be right about the war and he is right in a general sort of way that the constitution is being abused by Bush, but he is wrong on many levels, including the constitution in more specific ways.

    [ Parent ]
    Molly (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:24:05 AM EST
    I think you missed kdogs point.

    [ Parent ]
    May have (1.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:29:56 AM EST
    I probably have no business posting today anyway, I have too much to do and need to concentrate on the paying customers

    [ Parent ]
    I had a point?....lol (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:35:39 AM EST
    Paul supporters are cult-like in support of his ideas, not the man.  The man is kinda uninspiring, to be blunt.  But some of his ideas are powerful and truly revolutionary in these times.

    The cult-like support for Clinton and Obama seems more personality based, because they don't really have any new exciting ideas.  Keep on occupying foreign lands, keep in debt, keep locking up too many people and criminalizing too many things...those are their "ideas" as far as I can see.

    [ Parent ]

    Intentional Or Not (none / 0) (#73)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:42:12 AM EST
    It was to the point. Seemed like self parody to make a larger point. Less about Paul than the nature of partisanship.

    [ Parent ]
    I gotcha now..... (none / 0) (#80)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:46:03 AM EST
    everybody's in a cult, except for the people who support my candidate, they are obviously intelligent well-informed voters.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama:"See the light, have an epiphany!" (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by JoeCHI on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:56:20 AM EST
    In South Carolina, Obama also said this:

    "At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, `I have to vote for Barack!'"


    That one really startled me. (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:17:13 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Obama is naive, Hillary is an enabler (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Dadler on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:08:29 AM EST
    Take your pick.  We live in such a cynical age, tho, I don't think Martin Luther King could survive as a leader today.  YouTube would kill him by itself.  We have trivia overload, and critical thinking underload.  

    i agree most definitely with your comment (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:30:53 AM EST
    about lack of critical thinking. that is scary.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, his supporters are insane cultists who (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Geekesque on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:12:12 AM EST
    need to be de-programmed by Clinton supporters, who are wise and rational.

    Also, being inspirational isn't a good quality in a candidate.

    Joe Klein told me so.

    pretty much, yeah. (none / 0) (#37)
    by mike in dc on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:20:24 AM EST
    We're all just irrational kool-aid drinkers who can't see the lack of substance behind the thin veneer of faux salvation...or something like that.

    Unlike, you know, Taylor Marsh, who's been nothing but "objective" about the nominating process.

    Oh well, looks like the cult just raised another 8 million bucks for their lord and master.  

    At this rate we'll all be operating Thetans in no time!

    [ Parent ]

    Her Hallmark infomercial was quite rigorous and (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Geekesque on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:22:53 AM EST
    intellectually challenging.

    "Gosh, Hillary, I love you.  Do you love yourself as much as I do?"

    "Just how awesome is your plan for dealing with the mortgage crisis?"

    [ Parent ]

    instead of sarcasm about hillary why (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:37:53 AM EST
    don't you answer the real concerns we are expresssing about obama? these are being expresed in the voting booth by the average joe and that is who will decide in novemeber who is the next president.

    [ Parent ]
    Because this is anti-Obama propaganda (none / 0) (#72)
    by Geekesque on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:41:06 AM EST
    being pushed by extreme Clinton partisans.  

    [ Parent ]
    no, it isn't! i have deep concerns about (4.00 / 4) (#90)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:52:34 AM EST
    obama's lack of real positions. i also don't like the attempt to cause a differences among the younger and older generations. i personally have deep concerns about his lack of real experience. and yes, i do sincerely belive this. i am not a clinton partisan though you probably think so. in fact i have been very critical of her and will be again. i never ever see a obama supporter say, you might just have a point there.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes Geekesque (none / 0) (#107)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:07:15 PM EST
    you are starting to chatter. I'm deleting your attacks on me and Taylor. See the comment rules, you are about to get limited to four comments a day for chattering. You are also getting rude and I don't appreciate your tone.

    [ Parent ]
    well, yeah (none / 0) (#61)
    by mike in dc on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:34:40 AM EST
    ...if that wasn't a "cult event", i'm not sure what fits the definition.  completely staged, no hard questions, etc.

    which is it, "he lacks substance" or "there isn't much difference on policy between the two"?

    If you take the two together, doesn't that imply that the other candidate also lacks substance?

    Just because she can memorize her white papers doesn't mean she's more substantive.

    The interesting thing to me in all this is that you'd figure the "cult leader" would be the one winning over the low-information primary voters, but the demographics tend to suggest the opposite, or at least that Obama supporters are no less well-informed in the aggregate than Clinton supporters.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama's cult (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Me414 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:16:35 AM EST
    I received a comment on my blog today from a guy who is American and lives in France. He said on a post that I wrote about Obama's link to Exelon that he watched a bunch of Hillary's speeches and Obama's speeches on YouTube and that when he listens to Obama he feels like he's in church. When he listens to Hillary he gets substance. I've lost a lot of bloggers because of my support for Hillary and my dislike for Obama. I live in Illinois and I've been trying to get the Obama supporters to see that he is not what they think. They don't want to hear anything about his record, they are sticking to him like a right wing, Fox News loving Bush supporter.

    While looking at Raw Story today, there was a headline in teeny-tiny print that said: "Dean warns of "big" fight at convention--Clinton camp: $4M raised since Tuesday. Then in huge red print, right under the Clinton headline, it says "LIVE UPDATE: OBAMA DONATIONS BREAK $7.5M SINCE TUESDAY!"

    It seems all the big blogs like Huffpost, Raw Story and AmericaBlog are all a part of the Obama cult. The only thing that Huffpost writes about Clinton is that she cried and something about a phone call from Chelsie on "The View".

    I'm really concerned about his phenomena. What happened to the progressives?

    In addition, Huffington Post (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:19:15 AM EST
    headlines frequently misrepresent the content of the story.

    [ Parent ]
    i no longer go to huff post. at one time that was (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:33:26 AM EST
    my first stop. i used to watch countdown also, but for now i am gone. i respected keith for leaving television due to the bull about clinton and monica. what happened keith? say it isn't so!

    [ Parent ]
    This is probably old news (none / 0) (#106)
    by ding7777 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:05:06 PM EST
    but TPM is partnered with The Huffington Post.  

    No wonder Josh's "journalism" is in decline

    [ Parent ]

    Oh HuffPo has gotten to be worse than drudge (none / 0) (#180)
    by Virginian on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:38:25 PM EST
    Ariana's gone a bit over the deep end on this one

    [ Parent ]
    um (none / 0) (#39)
    by Jgarza on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:21:38 AM EST
    you aren't impartial you are a Hillary supporter, why would Obama supporters continue reading a blog if its all favorable to one person.


    [ Parent ]
    As partisan as evolution (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by blogtopus on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:54:28 AM EST
    Just because you support one cause over the other doesn't make you partisan -- sometimes it's a sign you're rational.

    Evolution or Intelligent Design: Are these both equally valid? One is based on facts, logic and solid evidence that supports their claims, used to drive important advances in medicine, biology and zoology. One is a just another form of religion, based on rhetoric, supposition, faulty logic and obfuscation of inconvenient facts, created to make people feel good but delivers nothing in the real world.

    Sound familiar?

    [ Parent ]

    That's great (none / 0) (#130)
    by andrewwm on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:56:12 PM EST
    So you'd have to be irrational to support Obama? Apparently there's no room for 'differences of opinion'.

    [ Parent ]
    jgarza, is that comment meant for me? (none / 0) (#93)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:53:27 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    So young poeple don't (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Jgarza on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:18:33 AM EST
    participate in politics, and get screwed over with college loans, harsher penalties for youth, no insurance safety net, they do participate, and get accused of being a in a cult.

    So basically society is trained to have disdain for young people, no matter what.  Who really needs their head examined.

    Can you point to one (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by standingup on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:09:40 PM EST
    place in the post where the youth is singled out or even mentioned?  Obama does draw a larger number of youth in comparison to Hillary but you are simply projecting here.  

    [ Parent ]
    hmm, instead of writing comments about (none / 0) (#82)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:46:18 AM EST
    how you are a victim here, why not research some of obama's policies and write about that.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (none / 0) (#110)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:09:33 PM EST
    That seems wrong. It is like asking someone who is called a dirty x to prove that they are not a dirty x.

    [ Parent ]
    Not so much... (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by sterno on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:21:14 AM EST
    Obama is about inspiration. Hillary is about knowledge and competence. That's why she wants debates and he does not. He can't keep up in that arena. His stump speech is always the same and it's getting tiresome.

    First off, Obama has no problem having another debate.  He just doesn't want to do 4 more.  Honestly I don't see the value in doing more than one or two more.  It's pretty well established where they stand on the issues (right next to eachother).

    Second, Obama has tremendous knowledge and competence.  Go look at an interview with him some time and tell me he doesn't know what he's talking about.  As for competence, he's demonstrated competence in the Illinois State Senate and his short time in the national Senate.  Also, I'm sorry but you don't build a successful national campaign without some competence.

    The reason Hillary wants debates is because she's generally done better in them than Obama.  Though in the first one on one debate, it was pretty much a tie with some parts favoring either candidate.  Obama has never particularly liked debates and prefers meeting people one on one and giving speeches.  They both want to play to their strengths.  Duh?

    His stump speeches actually do vary.  He does call on consistent themes, for sure.  Most critically, and in dispute of the "messianic" commentary, is that he's consistently calling on US to do it.  Not him.  He says, vote for me so that WE can do this.  Hillary says, vote for me so that I can do this.  Maybe it's all rhetoric, but Obama fundamentally gets something that hasn't been well understood since Kennedy: the American people like to be challenged.

    We don't want our president to save us or anything like that.  What we want is our president to lead.  To point the way and challenge us to go there.  After 9/11, a common disappointment was that we weren't challenged.  We were told to go shop rather than asked to seriously help fix problems we had.  Hillary isn't out there challenging us to do anything, she's wanting us to put her into office so we can have her steady hand guide the ship of state while we get back to whatever it was we were doing.

    He speaks to a far more engaged and activist kind of public.  That's why he's inspiring.  He's not trying to say he's going to save us, he's saying we have to all save ourselves.  That's not messianic, it's the truth.

    Oh, Please (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Joike on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:32:51 AM EST
    If you want to voice your support for one candidate over another, rock on, but don't patronize readers with garbage about cults and concerns about "messianic fervor".  I was originally for Edwards, but caucused for Obama, but like Hillary as well.

    Obama inspires some people one way; Hillary inspires others another way.  You prefer Hillary to Obama so his way gets trashed.

    This is sliming by negative association that I expect from a lazy MSM not from an otherwise thoughtful blog.

    I know you're reaching when you quote Joe Klein.  Klein can't even get his reasoning straight.  Obama has done well in caucus states like Minnesota and Iowa because he has brought many new voters to the process not firing up "hard core activists".

    I witnessed the massive outpouring of new voters firsthand in St. Paul where hundreds and hundreds of voters (many college age and many new US citizens) overwhelmed the Junior High where the caucus was held.  Once the official ballots ran out, we ended up writing on choice on a piece of paper and dropping it in a box like we were handing out valentines in 2nd grade.

    Sloppy Joe can't see that Hillary has done better with the traditional Democratic core and Obama has done better with the youth vote.  Even if he can see reality, it is inconvenient to his storyline so it must be ejected.

    All this style over substance blather is pure media speculation.  Congratulations for participating in the Media Group Think.  No one can honestly say which of the two would be the better executive.  We can have opinions, but can't speak with any authority.  Each would have their own management style, but neither style would be guaranteed to succeed or to flop.

    As for the debates, I haven't seen where either one has bested the other.  Both have proven their mettle.  I am disappointed that Clinton seems to have signed on for a Fox News debate.  Fox News is the propaganda arm of the GOP.  The Democratic Party doesn't need to give the enemy ratings and advertising dollars.

    When the dust settles, you have to ask yourself, who do you want selecting the next Supreme Court Justice:  a Republican President of a Democratic President?

    That answer alone should put to rest squabbling over speaking cadence or tears.  Whoever comes out of the nomination process needs all of our support and not hurt feelings because our favorite candidate lost.

    very much disagree (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:59:46 AM EST
    with "All this style over substance blather is pure media speculation." and about the debates. I've listened intently and live- blogged every debate. I've read the transcripts afterwards. I've read his campaign's literature with his position on issues and agenda. Obama is selling inspiration, hope, change and optimism. It's working. But I want more. Hillary has an encyclopedic knowledge of the issues and a plan for every one. She also has the experience to move her agenda through Congress, and not just by compromising. I think she's more of a fighter and that's what I want with the Republicans come November.

    [ Parent ]
    I respectfully disagree (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Reader on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:30:55 PM EST
    While I am not saying Obama does, how can you say that Clinton has the experience to move her agenda through Congress? Her health plan was a failure, and that was when she was working behind the scenes! When, really, has she ever demonstrated the ability to move her agenda through without compromise?
    Shoot, her husband only got things through by taking the rights issues and putting them in a moderate coat. Anyone recall the whole welfare reform stuff?
    Any Democratic congressional gains in red states are going to be Red Democrats (as opposed to red Democrats, the boogeyman of the right :) ), and are going to be a bit reluctant, IMHO, to do anything that might cost them their likely fragile seats.

    [ Parent ]
    Her FIRST health plan (none / 0) (#205)
    by echinopsia on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:00:18 PM EST
    Was a failure largely because the insurance companies spent millions to kill it, and because she was inexperienced as a first lady, and trying to something no first lady had ever done. She bit off more than she could chew. She didn't give up, though she didn't get universal health care.

    Her OTHER health plans have been a success - the one for kids, the one for 9/11 responders, the one for Nat'l Guard Iraq vets.

    Her husband was not a two-term senator from a big powerful state when he became president. He did not have her legislative experience. He also did not have her experience of eight previous years in the WH as a first lady.

    [ Parent ]

    oh gimme a break (none / 0) (#160)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:47:26 PM EST
    Point to one instance in a debate where a specific question was answered by Hillary with a specific answer, but by Obama with some gaseous talk of change.

    You may prefer one set of answers to the other, but he has matched her, issue by issue, detail by detail on any subject raised.

    Link us to the parts of their website which she displays this encylopedic knowledge of the issues, and he has nothing but hot air. Once again - it aint there. He addresses every issue she does, in just as full detail.

    I know you got a nice meme going - your candidate has the image of a knowledgable wonk and you want to run with it, and pretend that her opponent doesnt measure up.

    But I dont see any real cases, in the real world of any disparity on this level. Do you?

    [ Parent ]

    From the Las Vegas debate (none / 0) (#165)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:53:39 PM EST
    BLITZER: All right, Senator, until there's some new technological breakthrough, as you would hope and all of us would hope, where do you send the [nuclear] waste?

    OBAMA: Well, right now, it is on-site in many situations. And that is not the optimal situation, Wolf. But don't keep on assuming that we can't do something.

    I mean, this is about the third time where you said, assuming we can't do it, what's our option?

    BLITZER: Well, until we can...

    OBAMA: But -- but -- but I'm running for president because I think we can do it.

    (APPLAUSE)

    I reject...

    (APPLAUSE)

    I reject the notion that we can't meet our energy challenges.

    BLITZER: All right.

    OBAMA: We can, if we've got bold leadership in the White House that is saying we are going to do something about climate change, we are going to develop renewable energy sources. That's what I intend to do as president.

    BLITZER: Let...

    OBAMA: And we shouldn't, you know, be pessimistic about the future of America.



    [ Parent ]
    Good one . . (none / 0) (#187)
    by IndependantThinker on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:03:52 PM EST
    I forgot that response, thank you.

    [ Parent ]
    What was Clinton's response? (none / 0) (#190)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:09:09 PM EST
    I asked for a comparison between detail on one side, lack of detail on the other.

    [ Parent ]
    How does a blanket ad hominem attack... (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by mike in dc on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:36:14 AM EST
    ...on half the Democratic primary electorate help unite the party in November?

    For the most part the attacks on Clinton from Obama supporters are directed at her or her campaign, not her supporters.

    BS, Obama folks seem to be the most (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:08:42 PM EST
    thin skinned bunch I've ever seen.  Of course, I haven't seem them all.


    [ Parent ]
    directed at her (3.00 / 2) (#114)
    by horseloverfat on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:11:23 PM EST
    Exactly - HRC is being subjected to the saame smears we usually see the right wing people directing at her.  And why bother attacking her supporters when you have the MSM to keep noticing how old and out-of-touch and uneducated and whatnot we all are.

    [ Parent ]
    There are many smart Obama supporters (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:56:35 AM EST
    While I try very hard to understand the case for Obama, at some point even with the best supporters it always seems to come down to something faith-based.  There's just something they "get" about how Obama will successfully govern that I don't get.

    I don't have any problem with this, and I don't consider it a "cult" thing, but I do perceive an element of the non-rational.  Some people don't respond well to that.

    Another reason Obama supporters give (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by ding7777 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:34:05 PM EST
    is his willingness to reach out to Republicans.

    But many of these same supporters hate Joe Lieberman for doing exactly that.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama doesn't (none / 0) (#133)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    actively endorse GOP candidates for political office.  

    [ Parent ]
    Reasons why I support him over Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by andrewwm on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:08:25 PM EST
    Judgment Issues
    1. The war
    2. Kyl-Lieberman
    3. Choice of foreign policy advisors

    Policies
    1. Flag Burning/Free Speech issues
    2. Tech policies
    3. Cuba policy
    4. Earmarks

    Side benefits
    1. Probably greater turnout capabilities
    2. Knocks out Mark Penn, Terry McAullife/DLC wing of the party

    Minuses
    • Health care policies
    • A few of his tactics


    [ Parent ]
    Well said (none / 0) (#172)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:18:28 PM EST
    Many of your issues are disputable (I don't see the differences on some of them that you do), but a nice  summary of why you prefer one candidate over the other.

    [ Parent ]
    ad hominem (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by blogtopus on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:01:37 PM EST
    Mike, you're right. We shouldn't attack Obama supporters any more than we should attack Fundamentalist Christians. It isn't the people personally, its the dogma that's disturbing.

    The only person responsible for this is Obama. However, since so many supporters (rightfully) feel it is their job to get between Obama and his detractors, it appears that you folks are in direct line to get hit with stuff aimed at him. It isn't personal, it's politics.

    Now that that's out of the way, can somebody from Obama's campaign come up with something THIS detailed about his strengths?

    well... (none / 0) (#108)
    by mike in dc on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:08:18 PM EST
    ...aside from the boilerplate "it's on his website", I think the lawrence lessig video on Obama is very good. Some of the endorsement diaries posted on dKos by major posters were pretty detailed as well.  I think Yglesias had a pretty good argument for why Obama would be better on foreign policy.

    I'm at work, and it's "crunch day", so I don't have the time to dig up all the links for you.

    But if you ask me again tomorrow, i probably can do it for you. :)

    [ Parent ]

    Lawrence Lessig (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:16:49 PM EST
    Video supporting Obama here

    Lessig is not a cultish sort of guy if you ask me. Good video, worth a watch.

    [ Parent ]

    Res ipsa (none / 0) (#170)
    by byteb on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:11:14 PM EST
    Lessig supports Obama. There can be no other explanation other than he is a Cultist.

    [ Parent ]
    Can't help it but (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by djork on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:10:16 PM EST
    I'm caught up in watching the Obama campaign like a movie. I bet when it's over someone in Hollywood will make a satirical comedy transparently based on Obama à la Bob Roberts. I guess i'm just too cynical!

    yup, you are (none / 0) (#214)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:51:05 PM EST
    and that is precisely the attitude that Obama is challangeing you to get over.

    This is a democracy - you are an equal co-owner of this country, along with the rest of us. Get up off your lazy a** and stop watching it all as a movie. Get involved, speak up.

    Having the citizenry be passive observers is exactly what the Republicans want, for then they have a clear field.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm very concerned we know so little about Obama (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by jawbone on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:21:40 PM EST
    The MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) for the most part is ecstatic about Obama and his speaking style, his hope and change motif, his newness and momentum. His rock star ability to pull in huge crowds.

    I've heard much less coverage of his legislative history and his current policies and stands. But, the NYTimes did do an article about one of his Senate legislative attempts--to require nuclear power plant operators to inform the public of leaks, based on some leaks of radiated cooling water into the groundwater and contaminating drinking water sources.

    The article said Obama began with a strong language requiring the operators to inform the public, then, to gain Republican support (R's were in charge of the Senate at that time) he lowered the requirements to finally become voluntary compiance to be decided by the NRC and the operators.  

    This seemed to be BushLite--corporate voluntary standards. Great.

    But--is this article fair? Anyone knowledgeable about this issue know more? The NYTimes can be good--but they can also not be so good, so how's this article?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

    I'm reposting this because it was on an older thread and only got one reply--which noted, per the article, that while Obama did not get this legislation passed he said he did in a campaign appearance.  

    Now, if Al Gore had made such a mistake all MCM hell would break loose. But, with our MCMers' lack of concern or attention to Obama's actual record, we get little input from them.

    I woke up actually afraid we might end up with huge voters' remorse when the press finally did begin to explicate more on what he's done--or not done.

    Again, anyone know if this NYTimes' article is fair and accurate? IL people? Energy policy folks? I hate being bamboozled by the MCM, but I also don't want to be bamboozled by a candidate....

    What a horribly (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by taylormattd on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:26:53 PM EST
    disappointing post.

    I mean really Jeralyn, I can't believe you would essentially label millions of democrats who support Barack Obama as being some kind of cultists.

    Thanks for lumping me in with people like those who followed David Koresh or Jim Jones.

    Some members of the reality-based community (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by jawbone on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:39:52 PM EST
    have taken leave of their desire for fact-based decision making in favor of feeling the surge of hope and change.

    When asked what the "change" will be, no answer. Or, it will be a good thing. Or, it will be the right thing.

    Not everyone, of course. But most requests for hard data are answered with "read his website." Well, most candidates don't put all info on their websites!

    But Obama lost me with 1) his saying SocSec is in "crisis," which is a ReThug talking point and inaccurate, along with no mention of Medicare, 2) Krugman pointing out how Obama's lack of mandates makes universal healthcare difficult if not impossible to achieve, 3) his blatant copying of the Harry and Louise health insurance/Big Pharma ads to attack Edwards and Hillary's plan, 4) his flyer attacking the "Clintons" for losing the House and Senate, plus various governships during Bill's administration, and 5) his not explaining why he took his brave speech against the Iraq Invasion off his website when he ran for the Senate.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh please (none / 0) (#127)
    by taylormattd on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:42:14 PM EST
    what a ridiculous response.

    Because you can find low-information candidate supporters, all people who support the candidate are "cultists"?

    You think I could find dozens of Hillary supporters who know nothing whatsoever about her policy proposals?

    If I can do that, do I get to label everybody who supports Hillary as "cultists"?

    [ Parent ]

    Not cultists--they just don't reruire the same (none / 0) (#141)
    by jawbone on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:12:40 PM EST
    fact-based reasons for their choice of Obama. They do say that it is the inspirations which is most necessary, that the rest will follow because we the people will have a voice in what Obama does as president.

    [ Parent ]
    Like we (none / 0) (#145)
    by IndependantThinker on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:18:59 PM EST
    had a voice in what Bush has done over the last 7 years? Not very realistic is it?

    [ Parent ]
    Censorship is pretty pathetic (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:37:11 PM EST
    So now you are just going to delete comments you don't like politically?  

    Why not just put up a banner on the main page "Obama supporters unwelcome!"?  Save everyone the trouble.  You can have your echo chamber and everyone else can look for a new site to that might at least try and pretend to be fair.

    I delete comments that violate this sites (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:51:32 PM EST
    comment policy. Rudeness, insults and personal attacks and chatterers are not welcome. Read the comment rules.

    Obama supporters are welcome if they follow the rules.

    This is my site. I decide the level of discourse that's appropriate. If you don't want to write in a way that comports with it, that's your decision.

    It has nothing to do with who you support.

    [ Parent ]

    Some ridiculous charges here (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:10:10 PM EST
    "Obama is about inspiration. Hillary is about knowledge and competence"

    I dont think so. On what basis can you claim that? They are both about knowledge and competence. Obama ADDS inspiration.

    "That's why she wants debates and he does not."

    I find it hard to believe that you don't understand that Hillary wants debates because she wants free media time, and because she is hoping against hope that the relatively less experienced Obama just might make a gaffe - something she is less likely to do.

    "His stump speech is always the same"

    Duh....thats why they call it a stump speech.

    Its always the same because, unlike us political junkies, the actual voters never hear it until the show comes to their town. This is news?

    "His words aren't gospel "

    Thank you. We peasants have such trouble figuring things like that out.

    "I hope the hype stops soon. Maybe if more of us write about it, it will."

    Oh no. "This" - the Obama supporters are cultists meme - that is not going to stop. You are writing the Republican playbook for the fall, by grossly distorting the enthusiasm of your fellow party-members and jumping aboard the latest hook that the MSM wants to use to sell their copy.  Congratulations.


    There is a bit of a contradiction with this logic (3.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Virginian on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:34:58 PM EST
    They are both about knowledge and competence. Obama ADDS inspiration.

    vs.

    she is hoping against hope that the relatively less experienced Obama just might make a gaffe - something she is less likely to do.

    Don't knowledge and competence COME with experience? If he is less experienced, then how can he be comparatively her equal in knowledge and competence?

    On a side note, I think Hillary is very inspirational...think about it. A woman, betrayed by her husband, keeps her family and marriage together, becomes the first first lady to hold a public office (not to mention national) and is now the first viable female candidate for the presidency...if thats not inspirational, I don't know what is!

    [ Parent ]

    Ah...love the "1" rating (none / 0) (#209)
    by Virginian on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:17:07 PM EST
    rather than disagree and give me a reason to change my mind...just go on ahead and give me a "1"...must be the youth support /snark

    [ Parent ]
    I just put TJ Proud American in Time Out for (none / 0) (#218)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 06:37:37 PM EST
    abusing the comment rating system. He can come back when he promises to stop rating every comment he disagrees with a "1."

    [ Parent ]
    Peace (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:19:00 PM EST
    It's visceral. Some people have a positive visceral reaction to the Obama speech, others it raises a completely negative reaction. Why and how? Millions of reasons. For us who have a negative reaction it evokes negative images: cults, religion and fanaticism. For those who have a positive reaction it evokes; MLK, etc. Some people want leaders to inspire them. Others want them to just govern well and try to do a good job. We were all so hungry for what we were looking and there plop right in front of us, for the two sides the ideal leader. We are greedy for making that person the leader and we are passionate about it. I for the life of me will not get it and worry about the outcome of such a need for deliverance.

    Obama is NOT MLK (none / 0) (#176)
    by Virginian on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:29:19 PM EST
    No where close, MLK talk the talk AND walk the walk...that is NOT Obama...MLK is a hero (my hero), Obama is not a hero...

    [ Parent ]
    FYI, I know that is not what you said (none / 0) (#177)
    by Virginian on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:29:59 PM EST
    That comparison really upsets me though...

    [ Parent ]
    Not MLK (none / 0) (#188)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:05:22 PM EST
    Agreed, I meant the typical analogy, maybe JFK would have been better.

    [ Parent ]
    no no...what YOU said is fine :) (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by Virginian on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:19:39 PM EST
    MLK, JFK whatever...but Obama and his supporters have really been trying in recent weeks to create a MLK comparison...and frankly I find it very offensive...I mean the ego...the "audacity" to compare his privileged accent to power with the struggles of Dr. King...really offensive

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed (none / 0) (#212)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:32:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Woah (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Claw on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:45:17 PM EST
    This is exactly what repubs want.  Dem against dem so that Mac (who apparently "is back") doesn't have to answer any tough questions.  He is, by the way, another media darling.  The press has been slamming Clinton for years and has, so far, given Obama a free pass but I don't think running a candidate the media likes (Obama) against another candidate the media likes (Mac) is necessarily a bad thing.  The tone of this thread confuses me...it seems to boil down to "god forbid a democratic candidate receive favorable press coverage."  
    For the record, I favor Clinton on most policy issues.  Here's what I'm saying, take out the Clinton endorsements from this entry and you'd think you were reading a right wing blog.  ESPECIALLY considering the headline (or whatever it's called with a blog).

    I disagree (1.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Salt on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:56:59 PM EST
    Some in the party have on blinders and better to discuss it now and get it out there is risk for Nov I believe, most of us do not need or want a messianic leader for many different reasons but it would be foolish to believe that Hillary's demographic groups grounded in traditional organized faiths wont bolt before they vote for a cultish personality it is repulsive not just creepy. And frankly as an Independent many Progressives seem to be foaming, sputtering and spitting nonsense about O being the second coming of JFK which was and is a silly comparison of course. And understand many of us are not enamored with O and are becoming alarmed I would prefer a Dem but not any Dem.  That Os campaign raised 32 million in one month that is just obscene and excessive.

    [ Parent ]
    oh, I give up (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 03:02:02 PM EST
    Obama is just too popular. Lets certainly not nominate him - go with the safe bet, the one that half of America hates.

    Its like, so unseemly, y'know, maybe actually winning an election. The hubris of it all!

    [ Parent ]

    yeah, the opportunism (none / 0) (#167)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:01:39 PM EST
    of intra-party partisanship.

    Thats the real danger in a long drawn out campaign. People who lack all perspective (and that is a lot of people) will gladly use all the memes from the other side to tear down a candidate in their own party.

    Obama as cult leader has been floating around on the right for a long time. They are freaked - a Democrat who actually inspires people, who actually can motivate Democratic voters!?!?

    But sure enough, the Clinton supporters will gladly glom onto this for their own purposes.

    [ Parent ]

    Harry and Louise? (1.00 / 1) (#173)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:19:21 PM EST
    Just sayin'.  Both sides have used right-wing talking points.  

    I understand one of Obama's positives is his potential to help down-ticket Dems get elected in the fall.  Maybe that's true, but I'm not totally convinced.  Isn't it generally true that the GE causes presidential candidates to move more to the center?  
    Obama or Clinton, I'm not convinced that a candidate like Jim Neal (potentially the first openly gay Senator, from NC) isn't going to be thrown under the bus come the fall.  

    [ Parent ]

    The stats don't show him getting (1.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Virginian on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:26:33 PM EST
    younger voters to the polls...he gets them to his rally, but I think the stats are showing them voting in a normal deviation range (-1 to 1)

    [ Parent ]
    another "1" rating... (none / 0) (#211)
    by Virginian on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:20:16 PM EST
    I guess that makes me #1 today :)

    [ Parent ]
    You make the point in your post.. (none / 0) (#184)
    by Salt on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:58:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes! (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by jen on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01: