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Hillary Hate In The Blogs: Krugman Notices

By Big Tent Democrat

Ezra Klein notes Krugman writing:

By my count, 3 of my last 10 columns have criticized Barack Obama. 7 of Frank Rich’s 10 last columns, and 6 of Maureen Dowd’s last 10 columns, have criticized Hillary Clinton. But, of course, that’s different: Hillary is eeevil, and deserves it.

But Ezra misses Krugman's point I think, writing:

The sense I get from some of those critiquing him is that they're tired of hearing about this disagreement and think Paul should get over it already. And that's a fair point. But while there are a lot of folks who accurately diagnose the illegitimacy of Dowd and Rich's critiques of Clinton, very few seem to notice or care that these attacks on her personal comportment are repetitive. Continual Hillary-bashing is somehow far less jarring than continual Obama-bashing. Maybe that's a strength of his.

(Emphasis supplied.) I think Krugman's point, one Bob Somerby makes continually, is that it is a weakness of the progressive blogs. Fanboydom is unattractive in supposedly intelligent people.

Update [2008-2-4 17:29:30 by Big Tent Democrat]:

Stepping up to the plate to make Krugman's point is Kevin Drum, who announces he will vote for Obama (so will I), which is fine, but the WHY is hilariously hypocritical:

So who am I going to vote for tomorrow? Answer: Barack Obama.

I've got some good reasons and some bad reasons for changing my mind. The good reasons include (a) the ugliness coming out of the Clinton camp over the past couple of weeks, which has turned me off . . . There are also some not-so-good reasons. I'm half embarrassed to admit that this stuff even affects me, but the fact is that the actions of both the candidates' supporters and detractors has had an impact. Watching Andrew Sullivan rant and rave on a daily basis about Hillary, for example, has had the perverse effect of keeping me on her side. I just hated the thought of fever swamp hatred like that influencing my party's nomination. Conversely, today's Paul Krugman column, which was yet another installment in his months-long anti-Obama jihad, had the opposite effect. I don't like Obama's mini-demagoguery of Hillary's healthcare plan either, but for chrissake, it's an election. A bit of hardball is to be expected and I can't for the life of me figure out what Obama has done to drive a sensible guy like Krugman over a cliff.

(Emphasis supplied.) One man's ugliness is another man's hardball I guess. It is not often it is the SAME man though. Good to see Kevin is not letting the "fever swamp hatred" get to him . . .

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  • Display: Sort:
    If he wants to hold himself to (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by Geekesque on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:35:23 PM EST
    the Maureen Dowd standard .  . .

    Heh (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:37:35 PM EST
    You are having an Obamanaut day.

    Obviously, I missed all those swipes at MoDo at daily kos . . .

    [ Parent ]

    Listen, for Geek... (none / 0) (#149)
    by rhbrandon on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 03:45:13 AM EST
    Everyday is an Obamanaut day. Thanks to people like him, DKos is completely unreadable.

    [ Parent ]
    See also (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:41:28 PM EST
    He Nails It (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:48:11 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Uhh (none / 0) (#33)
    by rilkefan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:10:37 PM EST
    Fish is not helpful - anti-Semitism???  Liberals to blame for whatever-it-was?

    [ Parent ]
    She should have NO fans (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:43:38 PM EST
    NOt sure what your point is here.

    I'd let her have fans, but banish her to (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:49:45 PM EST
    NYT Style section.

    [ Parent ]
    Hahaha (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:50:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You are right about this (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by BernieO on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:12:32 PM EST
    Maureen Dowd is like Mikey - she hates everything. People love her when she is trashing someone they oppose, but do not realize that she will trash anyone. Reminds me of some girls I knew in high school. She is a true cynic, something that is damaging for our society. It is great to be sceptical, but cynics poison the debate. Scepticism is a healty questioning of  conventional wisdom reliance on facts over opinion: cynicism is a knee jerk, negative emotional reaction that is not based on facts or reason.

    People need to just stop reading Dowd. Her trashing of Gore in 2000 was petty and mean spirited, but carried a lot of weight. Every time anyone clicks on her columns they are voting for this sour, self absorbed pessimist. If we all just stopped reading her, her influence would be greatly diminished. The woman is a pathetic, miserable fool.


    [ Parent ]

    sorry, i have to vigorously (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by cpinva on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 06:11:12 AM EST
    disagree with your characterization of ms. dowd as a "cynic". she's no such thing, and you've insulted true cynics everywhere by putting her in that category.

    a true cynic has actual facts on their side, when expressing their cynicism; ms. dowd never lets facts clutter her mind, she just makes stuff up as she goes along, and the rubes eat it up.

    [ Parent ]

    Bitter much? (2.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Mo MoDo on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:41:53 PM EST
    Her recent columns have been bright and witty. Yes, she bashes the Clintons. A lot. But she has been pretty easy on Obama unless he deserves it.

    [ Parent ]
    Still a Need for Feminism (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:00:46 PM EST
    I believe it was on Whiskey Fire, but I read somewhere the fact that Maureen Dowd has a column on the New York Times op-ed pages instead of Digby or some other bright, mentally well woman proves that the need for feminism has not passed.  

    Not that anyone watching Tweety Matthews or Bill Bennett could think otherwise this election season.

    [ Parent ]

    Kevin Drum's Obama Vote (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:48:25 PM EST
    Is backed up by some of the weakest reasoning I've read in awhile.  If you like Obmama better, fine, but just say that.  

    And not to go all Bob Sommerby on you, but his buying into this "Clinon is racist" and running an ugly campaign mainstream meme is why I hold little hope for progressive media after this election cycle.  Sure, when someone gets something blantantly wrong like Jake Tapper or Joe Klein, they take them down, but mostly they've been way too happy to fall for mainstream media narratives.  Eight years after Gore, Drum, et al, still aren't screaming and fighting back.  

    That doesn't mean Drum has to back Hillary, but it does mean he shouldn't be citing MSM crap as a reason for voting for Obama.

    And if you want to see "I'm a real journalist, so even though I was wrong, I was right" arrogance on the blogosphere, check out Harold Meyerson at The American Prospect.  First, he put up a smear of Clinton based on no evidence whatsoever and what a surprised it was race-based (about an alleged phone call in LA using a stereotypical African American voice).  Then after getting called on it (and I'm proud to say I was one of many commentators, including some Obama folks, who complained as did the Clinton campaign), he took down his original post and replaced it with a post that essentially said that even though he has no proof that Clinton was behind the calls, it still must be her supporters because he's an expert on Los Angeles politics, citing his standing with the LA Times and LA Weekly.  That's right, he just knows who is behind it because he's trusted to cover politics by the LA Times, a paper that publishes Jonah Goldberg.  With self-aggrandizment and rationalization like that, who needs Joe Klein and Jake Tapper?

    God bless Media Matters.  If only it also covered the blogosphere.

    I nearly puked when I read Kevin's endorsement (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Angel on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:05:05 PM EST
    of Obama.  Weak reasoning if you ask me.  

    [ Parent ]
    puked (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by tek on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:02:11 PM EST
    My reaction to Maria Shrivers' Obama endorsement. Her interpretation of Obama as the state of CA truly made me ill. Where do people get this stuff. I have lost all respect for this wing of the Kennedy clan, not they were highly respected by Americans in the first place.

    Maria Shriver: "Arnold will definitely NOT run for a second term."

    [ Parent ]

    Goodbye Kevin (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:57:25 AM EST
    I responded to Kevin's endorsement by removing my bookmark to his site. If he can't differentiate his reasoning from MSM memes then I might as well just listen to Tweety. No thanks!


    [ Parent ]
    typical (4.00 / 0) (#150)
    by ghost2 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:16:47 AM EST
    I've been reading blogs for a few years, and Kevin Drum never impressed me with his reasoning.

    Kevin is about conventional wisdom.  He just sort of assembles viewpoints, and then says it seems to him something is the sensible approach.  I guess I am a bit harsh, but he buys into the media pressure and narratives, and that's why I stopped regularly checking his blog.

    Josh Marshall is a bit like that too, but in a slightly different way.  He works in a new medium, but yearn for the approval of traditional media, and says, look I can be serious.   Both, if I need to remind you, were lukewarm in debacle of the Iraq war, and took a while to come against it.  Sometimes, the posts were, could you hippies not make life difficult for us serious people? At the time, I really saw that as a reflection of their personalities.

    Markos is more like a revolutionary, but then he crashed the gate, and amazed that the clean people inside invited him in.  He realized it's cozy and hasn't looked back.

    Yeah, I know. Not a particularly warm tone towards the blogsphere.  But they haven't shown any power of independent opinion or insight to deserve otherwise.  They've gotten to some nice spot on the internet tubes, and their revolution (if there was ever one) is over.


    [ Parent ]

    The Democratic Party (none / 0) (#22)
    by IndependantThinker on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:05:24 PM EST
    is doomed.

    [ Parent ]
    Ruined by the "roots" (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:06:46 PM EST
    that were supposed to prop it up.

    [ Parent ]
    The roots are still there (5.00 / 0) (#56)
    by Virginian on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:45:36 PM EST
    Think of it as pest infestation...

    [ Parent ]
    Wow, that's a lot of typos (none / 0) (#29)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:07:45 PM EST
    Sorry about that post, that's truly awful spelling and grammar.

    [ Parent ]
    The substance was perfect (none / 0) (#32)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:09:14 PM EST
    you got the point across, that's what matters.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:17:36 PM EST
    But still a pathetic display for a person who owns a shirt that says "Good Grammar Costs Nothing."  

    [ Parent ]
    I have that (none / 0) (#40)
    by PlayInPeoria on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:15:37 PM EST
    problem when my mind goes faster than my fingers.

    I was able to follow your logic.

    [ Parent ]

    you can't fool me (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by Turkana on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:57:57 PM EST
    hillary is objectively evil! i read it, on the daily kos rec list! every day!

    Harold Meyerson thinks so (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:05:34 PM EST
    What more do you need?

    [ Parent ]
    Eugene Robinson just said something. (none / 0) (#151)
    by ghost2 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:17:25 AM EST
    I don't know what though.  I've stopped reading him.

    [ Parent ]
    Who is over the edge (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by koshembos on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:00:11 PM EST
    The truth is that Big T's belief that Obama is a progressive is in a huge mind stretch. The same mental stretch is now performed by many in the Netroots community. What is clearly missing, and what Krugman supplies, is the risk analysis. Not only didn't Krugman get off the edge, but a mirror image, namely all the bloggers mentioned above, applies. Too many bloggers have left the reservation. Dowd, whose talent seems to with handling mad dogs, and Rich, another mental acrobatic star, have gone from Hillary hate to even more Hillary hate.

    Kevin Drum's statement: the ugliness coming out of the Clinton camp over the past couple of weeks, which has turned me off. is made without looking at the ugliness, meanness and nastiness of the Obama camapaign. Talk about throwing darts and drawing the target afterwards.

    Interestingly to me in this campaign is the fact that Klein, Drum, Yglesias and others are as bad and as guilty and mediocre as Klein, Broder, Hiatt and others.

    Personally, I alarmed at the serious possibility that a con man such as Obama will be president.

    Disclaimer: I am and will stay an Edwards supporter.

    The blogosphere tends to support (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:05:35 PM EST
    "progressive candidate" who turn out to be blue dogs.  I think this is happening once again.


    [ Parent ]
    Oh come now. I haven't seen a single picture (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:53:13 PM EST
    of Obama standing in a field.

    [ Parent ]
    with a tractor (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Nasarius on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:19:35 PM EST
    Don't forget the tractor.

    [ Parent ]
    Shouldn't it be a tank? (none / 0) (#128)
    by echinopsia on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:42:41 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yglesias had a post (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:04:10 PM EST
    a couple days ago in which he seriously attempted to address the burning issue of whether HRC would have invaded Iraq in 2003 had she been president at the time instead of Bush. Yes, that's the test we should be applying.

    It was simply dreadful. He couldn't even see that the premise was preposterous. I think I'll be skipping his blog until after the primaries.

    I read fewer and fewer blogs as the primaries lumber on. DKos now reads like the bathroom wall.

    [ Parent ]

    Risk Analysis (5.00 / 0) (#152)
    by ghost2 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:22:50 AM EST
    Well said.  Why do you think serious, hard working people are for Hillary?

    I know I generalize.  But I feel like it.

    Seriously though, you think after 7 years of Bush, America will think long and hard about the next president.  But even so-called progressives have joined the new bandwagon.  I mean, this country and the world is in a f***d up state, if you pardon the expression.  

    Hypocrisy knows no bounds. On dkos, a mere mention of a republican by a democrat in a positive light was enough to get the whole site mad with rage.  But now, Obama talks about change, post-partisanship and they are eating it up.  What's even more annoying is that Obama blames the mess not on Bush, but on partisanship.  Which is utterly stupid.

    [ Parent ]

    I am an Obamanaut (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:04:54 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And the reason is? (none / 0) (#31)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:08:26 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I wrote a post called (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:11:02 PM EST
    "Why Obama" - check it out.

    [ Parent ]
    So, Michelle's comment didn't (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:15:17 PM EST
    change your mind; yet?

    [ Parent ]
    Not yet (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:17:17 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You will let us know, won't you? (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:21:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    and the nyt piece (none / 0) (#51)
    by Turkana on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:28:31 PM EST
    on his sell-out to exelon energy?

    [ Parent ]
    But HRC sold out also so its king's X. (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:37:00 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    not as (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Turkana on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:45:26 PM EST
    blatantly. and that article underscored that obama's whole schtick of being different is nothing more than a schtick.

    [ Parent ]
    I guess I'm a "Clintonista," but (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:50:50 PM EST
    in my opinion, Obama's relationship with Rezko severely undercuts Obama's cred. on the "not one of them" issue.  

    [ Parent ]
    he lost me (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Turkana on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:03:48 PM EST
    with mcclurkin. but rezko (not a criminal relationship, but certainly not a "different" one), his taking big money from banks and the health care industry, that nuke article- the more i learn, the more proof i find that he's really just another player. no surprise. and i prefer hillary's edwardsian health care plan, too.

    [ Parent ]
    I forgot about McClurkin. (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:11:10 PM EST
    I read the exchanges between BTD and andgarden but didn't realize what McClurkin stands for and advocates and is a symbol of.  I guess if Obama wants those ole time religion voters he has to send signals he agrees with some quite conservative views.  But it is pretty disappointing.  Of course, like the Log Cabin Republicans, I guess the demographic he offended is too small to worry about.   But, from a candidate whose audacity of hope included announcing his candidacy from the steps of the old capitol in Springfield, I expect more inclusiveness.  

    [ Parent ]
    He lost me (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:13:03 PM EST
    (sounds like a country music song) when I read on his own website that he wouldn't let his wife take a job until he met her future employer and gave his stamp of approval.  And then came the "you're likable enough" crap.  And then came the snub.  And then he lost me...he lost me, oh, mama he lost me...

    [ Parent ]
    Kathy, when people ask you who you (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:25:55 PM EST
    support, do you tell them the tale of the Michelle Obama interview?  Do they even know what you are talking about?  That's how people react to me talking about Rezko.  

    [ Parent ]
    actually... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:42:24 PM EST
    my story is a bit easier, because what woman would not be incensed by the story?  With Rezko, it's so convoluted and dicey and won't really make sense until the republicans boil it down to some talking points.  With the Obama work thing, it's clear-cut misogyny and they absolutely FREAK.

    But, I gotta be honest: most people I know support Hillary anyway, so it's just fuel on the fire.

    [ Parent ]

    Reno Gazette (none / 0) (#90)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:14:28 PM EST
    The entire interview, not just the clip. His disdain for Democrats, his praising of Reagan, his putting down the 60's and 70's, the fact that those struggles do not resonate with him, his Bush like " he will delegate everything, real executive work not for him", his idea of how he will come up with a health plan, his distortion of his anti war record, his voting record, when he started talking about what kind of a VP he would choose, someone that would supplement his skill weaknesses: economics, military and foreign policy. Gee, on that last one, why should I not vote for one who has those skills? I think he is super achiever who has believed his own mythology. I find that dubious and dangerous. Who will dare tell him he is not the reincarnation of JFK, MLK, Moses and the Christ Child? False idols and all that still applies.

    [ Parent ]
    What woman would not? (none / 0) (#127)
    by echinopsia on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:37:41 PM EST
    I tried to tell that story on the forum I frequent to deminstrate that Barry's not your boy when it comes to women.

    I added that sure, I would ask advice (if I though it would be valuable and appropriate) from a husband or serious BF before I applied for a job.

    Hasn't happened yet; I'm no Ivy League-educated lawyer with a politically-inclined fiance, but I think I can manage my own career. And I think having to get ANYONE's permission to take a job, or having to have anyone meet the prospective employer, would be humiliating.

    I was ripped to shreds. Apparently I said people should never involve their SOs in ANY of their decisions. I neglected to take into account that Michelle just probably thought Barry was a good/better judge of character than she was. The story just demonstrates what a wonderful marriage they have and how collaborative they are. I must be a bitter hairy-legged man-hating feminist (just like Hillary).

    These people are nuts. You cannot question the Godhead, and you may not point out disturbing things about what his holy wife says or does.

    [ Parent ]

    echinopsia... (none / 0) (#133)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:26:29 PM EST
    You had me at "I tried..."

    [ Parent ]
    He never had me. (none / 0) (#75)
    by g8grl on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:50:56 PM EST
    I'm just so tired of guys coming along, late in the game, talking a good story and getting the prize.  It's always the same.  A woman works hard, day after day.  Not always glamorous but grinding it out.  Laying down the infrastructure to build on.  She doesn't really get much credit and lots of folks don't like her because she just wants to get stuff done and sometimes that's not the most popular thing.  Then along comes a man who gets along, everyone likes him.  He does a couple of good things, doesn't do anything controversial which would get him on someone's bad side.  And because everyone likes him, he wins the popularity contest.  Same old story.  That's why I think it's time for a woman in the White House.  

    [ Parent ]
    That's how a female friend put it too: (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:59:16 PM EST
    its her turn.  Not sure that will win many voters though.  

    [ Parent ]
    No -- it's our turn (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:07:46 PM EST
    I'm with Robin Morgan.  It's not because Clinton is a woman -- hardworking, brilliant, and all -- but because I'm a woman . . . and many of us women have a different perspective on many political and societal issues, and most of my stands are hers.

    I don't have problems with voting for a guy who shares my stands on my issues.  It's just that there isn't one.

    Edwards came darn close.

    Obama doesn't.

    [ Parent ]

    I did not say it (none / 0) (#87)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:08:03 PM EST
    the "R" word.

    [ Parent ]
    Such self-control. (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:18:41 PM EST
    Its o.k., I already did.

    [ Parent ]
    so (none / 0) (#89)
    by dwightkschrute on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:12:19 PM EST
    Rezko is an issue for you but Norman Hsu is not?

    [ Parent ]
    Rezko (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:26:06 PM EST
    was a close, personal friend and worked on Obama's campaigns from the get-go.  I think it says a lot about Obama's judgment that even when the man was being seriously investigated, Obama still entered into a land deal with him.

    If you think that a funny-smelling land deal isn't important, I have but one word for you: Whitewater.

    [ Parent ]

    Hsu is a bi-bundler: Obama and HRC (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:15:08 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    the $843,000 caveat (none / 0) (#100)
    by dwightkschrute on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:28:16 PM EST
    It's not quite fair to compare $7,000 (Hsu to Obama) with $850,000 (Hsu to Clinton).

    [ Parent ]
    how about (none / 0) (#106)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:32:09 PM EST
    900,000, Rezko to Obama vis-a-vis the land deal (300K off the price of the house, plus "giving" him the lot, or at least letting him fence in property that he does not own and joining it to his yard)

    Not for a campaign, but for personal gain.  For a yard and a driveway to park his car in.

    I didn't see this mentioned in The Audacity of Hope.  Maybe I should go to Walmart and buy a copy.  You know, Walmart, the chain that's sold hundreds of thousands of copies of his books.

    Did he donate that money to charity?  I didn't see it mentioned on his tax form.  Granted, I was a little blown away by the folks his wife was "working" for, but maybe you can go look for me and explain...

    what Obama meant.

    [ Parent ]

    Maytag workers? (none / 0) (#112)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:37:13 PM EST
    Did not support them when they closed plant, oops he did not know one of his big supporters was on Maytag Board.  

    Oops did not know  Rezko's properties were failing when he took money and made the real estate deal.

    Oops, did not know he pushed the wrong votes.

    Oops, he did it again and again.

    If Chicago was so filled with pitfalls, what about Washington?  

    [ Parent ]

    wow lots of spite and inaccuracies (none / 0) (#119)
    by dwightkschrute on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:00:15 PM EST
    First off I don't think there's a need to go at Clinton for Hsu or Obama for Rezko. I was just saying it's a bit odd to use Rezko as an example when Hsu is as bad if not worse.

    Ok, as to the off base allegations here's where a little understanding of the facts would help. Obama did not buy his house from Rezko. Yes, he paid $300,000 less than the $1.9 million listing after the house had been on the market unsuccessfully for 3 months, but again it was not from Rezko. Rezko's wife bought an undeveloped lot at the same time from the same owner. Later, Obama bought from Rezko 1/6 of the vacant lot for $104,500, which was 1/6 of what Rezko paid for the entire lot. Despite no clear evidence of wrongdoing, Obama himself has called his action in this matter "bone-headed".

    And yes, he has donated all donations from, or tied to, Rezko to charity.

    [ Parent ]

    No, a lot of Rezko gang's money not (none / 0) (#123)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:10:03 PM EST
    donated yet and still in Obama's coffers, according to the Chicago press, ABC, etc.

    As for the rest of the above, that is quite an oversimplification.  The two Obamas got a deal on the driveway that wasn't part of their property and now greatly increases its value.  Etc. . . .

    The deal stinks.

    [ Parent ]

    From ABC News (none / 0) (#124)
    by dwightkschrute on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:14:25 PM EST
    The campaign of Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama is donating to charity an additional $72,650 in contributions linked to Antoin "Tony" Rezko.

    With the latest donations, Obama has returned a total of $149,985 in contributions from Rezko and his associates since Rezko was indicted on federal fraud charges in the fall of 2006.



    [ Parent ]

    Still another $50,000 difference (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:07:25 PM EST
    according to Chicago press.  Total -- $200,000 in donations from Rezko and his bf's.

    [ Parent ]
    3 months on the market (none / 0) (#131)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:20:49 PM EST
    The average home in that area in that price range spent ten to twelve months on the market.  Do you know who owned the house and took 300K less after only three months?  Michelle Obama's boss.

    (hey, does anyone have access to MLS in Chicago?  Because you could find out the purchase price of the house and the land when Obama's boss first bought it.  Ooh!  Ooh!  Taylor Marsh, here I come!)

    [ Parent ]

    hey, dont let facts (none / 0) (#136)
    by Tano on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:07:57 PM EST
    get in the way of a little hate-fest

    [ Parent ]
    For Future Reference (none / 0) (#121)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:07:19 PM EST
    Norman Hsu made political contributions to Obama, helped host a California event for his political action committee and introduced the senator from Illinois to one of the biggest fundraisers for his presidential bid.

    Not a good debating point IMO.

    [ Parent ]

    IIRC Obama In An Iowa Speech (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:22:59 PM EST
    claimed that the bill passed when it did not. That bothered me more than the spin.

    [ Parent ]
    just watch the (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:26:42 PM EST
    big, giant head, folks.  Don't look behind the curtain.

    [ Parent ]
    Got it. Talent and hope... (none / 0) (#50)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:27:23 PM EST
    ...that the MSM won't turn on him...hooboy...that's a big one.  They won't, of course, until he gets the nomination and puts the Clintons in cold storage.

    A faith-based decision, as you admitted some time ago.

    But how will you get him elected in the general?

    [ Parent ]

    Here's a summary: faith, media darling, and (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:20:04 PM EST
    Hillary hate.  

    Subtext may be:  support for driver licensese for undocumenteds and speech against invasion of Iraq while an IL state senator.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, my summary was unfair. (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:20:47 PM EST
    Hilary hate by others lessens HRC's electability.  

    [ Parent ]
    TPM is down. Must have been overwhelmed (none / 0) (#26)
    by Angel on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:06:37 PM EST
    with all the Obama fans hating on HRC.

    [ Parent ]
    Trojan Horse-Breathtaking sense of entitlement (none / 0) (#118)
    by lily15 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:55:34 PM EST
    That's all you need to remember.  These so called progressive writers are in on it.  No rational person with a good college education could publish such a weak and absurd analysis of the candidates (and why his choice was superior) and not be embarrassed...Drum and the others of his ilk are shills.  Only Krugman is intellectually honest.  The rest want to be in the in crowd or the paid well crowd.  But when Democrats lose because of Obama hysteria, these blogs will lose readership...the fall out will be huge.  The desire to punish these lying pieces of trash will be intense.  After being lied to by the MSM while Bush and his merry Republicans raped this country in full view of a  media that stood by in mute deference, we find ourselves facing the same behavior in the blogs...as they blot out Obama's record and trash Hillary's.

     Ignominy isn't enough for these traitors.  Not because they have a different opinion...but because they are intellectually dishonest.  As for women?  It will sink in for enough women...that they have been betrayed. Obama, the Trojan Horse, with his racial credentials, is destroying the Democratic party at its very core.  He and his arrogant, mean wife...are the worst examples of liberal elites...with Harvard degrees..and undeserved credibility.

    Their sense of entitlement is breathtaking.

    [ Parent ]

    Another Antidote to the Hate (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:06:26 PM EST
    Vastleft on Corrente, who recently endorsed Clinton after Edwards dropped out, explains why he hates Hillary Clinton.  Among the reasons:

    Because she's so old, and the Baby Boomers ruined everything. Youth voting is inspiring. Older voters? Ho-hum.

    Because she thinks the progressive fights of the 1960s and 1990s are still worth fighting

    Because her campaign is focused on energizing Democrats instead of those all-important Independents and repentant Republicans (in case there are any)

    Because her husband ran on that awful, triangulating "third way," unlike Obama's awesome triangulating post-partisanship

    Because she's too much like a Republican, and not in some undefinable awesome way that appeals to Republicans but is really incredibly progressive

    Because she supported the war since the beginning, while Obama was gracious enough to wait until he was in the Senate to support the war



    VastLeft is quite a wit (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:07:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You should see (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:12:54 PM EST
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:16:13 PM EST
    Another example of Vastleft's wit - Breaking Hillary Clinton Sneezes.  Excerpt:

    An unnamed source from the Obama campaign suggests that the sneeze may have been on purpose, perhaps to curry favor with the pharmaceutical lobby.

    Heh.  Sometimes wit really is the best weapon.

    [ Parent ]

    New talking points (5.00 / 0) (#153)
    by ghost2 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:24:44 AM EST
    When Hillary compromises, she is a triangulating sellout.  

    When Obama compromises, he is a unifying visionary.

    [ Parent ]

    Hillary on Hallmark (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:07:24 PM EST
    Has banned the press.  Holy crap, I didn't know you could do that.  I think this ties into our topic nicely: if you can't get a fair shake, stop paying their way.  Why have them there when they are just waiting to pounce?  I also read that the campaign has stopped paying travel expenses for reporters to follow Bill around, which might explain why they have stopped picking on him so much.  They should've done this ages ago.

    And, before Obamagoobers come out in full swing, Obama stays in first class on the plane and seldom goes back to talk to the press, but when he does, he refuses to go on record with them.

    "Transparency"

    Who Can Blame Her? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:12:51 PM EST
    Her new openness with the press that she started a couple of weeks ago got her decent press coverage for like a day and then it went back to the same old crap.

    One of the many reasons why I support her is that a win by her has the capacity to severely weaken the pundits' influence.  I admit it has the chance of making her less electable, but to me I'd rather take that risk to try and break the influence of the media, than take the risk on Obama, which in part relies on gaming the broken media system.

    [ Parent ]

    Hell yes you can do that. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by echinopsia on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:51:28 PM EST
    I used to be a tech reporter. One sentence in a review of a conference that criticized the food, and the organization's president revoked my press privileges.  

    It's not considered ethical, since you are not supposed to treat the press as though they are part of your marketing department. But I can certainly understand why she did it for tonight's event.

    And it may not be because she's tired of getting stabbed in the back. It could be because the press is incredibly distracting, and this is supposed to be about the people. The press can watch it on TV.

    [ Parent ]

    Why is it that legitimate (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by BernieO on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:20:55 PM EST
    criticism of the substance of Obama's proposals is "going over a cliff" or "playing hardball". Krugman is one of the most intelligent, well-informed economists we have. If he has a problem with Obama's positions, he should say so. Who better than someone who is actually an expert? To criticise each equally is intellectually dishonest if the facts convince you that one person has the better positions.
    I have yet to see anyone point to a well-respected economic analyst who thinks Obama's position on health care - the single most important domestic problem that faces our country in the long run - is better than Hillary's. You could probably get some free market fundamentalist, supply side ideologue to make that judgment but they are about as fact-based and objective as Bush is.

    apparently not (5.00 / 0) (#154)
    by ghost2 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:31:00 AM EST
    some old farts on the blogsphere who used to yap about 'issues' and 'fairnesss' and 'media bias' and you name it, now have problem with Krugman specifying in detail his differences with a candidate's position.

    Look, I even thought (and I think I was right) that Krugman was mostly an Edwards fan. But he is an honest man, and he got p***ed over social security cuteness from Obama campaign.  

    Obama campaign treated him like an opponent and were vicious.  Now, Kevin Drum complains about viciousness of the Clinton campaign? Give me a break.  (really want to swear, but don't think Jeralyn would approve!)

    [ Parent ]

    Great review in NEWSWEEK (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:53:36 PM EST
    of 30 Ways of Looking at Hillary, wherein well educated women pounce on Hillary from everything from her headbands to staying with Bill.  In sum:

    "The problem is that many of the authors seem unaware of how much support Hillary has among women.  Roiphe [one of the writers] declares, 'I have yet to meet a woman who likes Hillary Clinton.'  How, then, to explain the polling that has consistently shown blue collar women have rallied to Clinton's campaign?  ...  So, not all women think the same way.  It's just that some voices are a lot louder than others."

    It's kind of like the way I've seen some of my well-educated friends (most of whom had abortions in college) turn anti-choice in later life.  Everything we fought for they are now turning their backs on because they don't feel like they NEED the freedoms anymore.  Title 9, choice, the ERA?  What's it to them?  (I am hoping this will change when their daughters get to be teenagers)

    The problem is that there is a complete disconnect between wealthy, well educated women and the average woman who has two jobs, no insurance and can barely feed her kids.  I don't understand where it comes from.  My granny would call it "forgetting your roots."  I would call it turning your back on the people who got you where you are.

    "[S]ulfurous emanations (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:02:57 PM EST
    from the national collective unconscious"

    Good, eh?

    [ Parent ]

    change later in life (none / 0) (#77)
    by tek on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:53:45 PM EST
    Unfortunately these women don't change when their daughters become teenagers. I can't tell you how many 14, 15, 16 year old girls I have see in my community have to go through life-threatening preganancies because their mothers are now born-again Christians--women who were entirely wild in their own youth.

    [ Parent ]
    hatred (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by phat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:02:32 PM EST
    The hatred of Hillary is visceral to the point of dehumanizing. It's truly awful.

    And I suspect that Obama's positioning and rhetoric has helped fan this flame.

    phat

    Anyone that buys into (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by athyrio on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:03:24 PM EST
    Hillary hatred, obviously lacks the ability to think for themselves and in reality hates themselves...

    hillary hate (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by tek on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:50:44 PM EST
    Taylor Marsh has a good piece up about how Democratic men have responded to the candidacy of a woman and it isn't pretty. What bothers me even more is the reaction of so-called progressive women to Hillary Clinton.  As Taylor said, I'll never feel quite the same about Democrats again. At least Republicans are honest, they come right out and say women should be at home in the kitchen.

    Interesting (none / 0) (#82)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:01:26 PM EST
    Did a lot of calling today, and many Democrats said that to me, that the party has been divided.

    [ Parent ]
    I amy not be progressive (none / 0) (#96)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:20:57 PM EST
    but I am a man and a Democrat.

    [ Parent ]
    1972 The Dem big love fest (5.00 / 0) (#109)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:34:10 PM EST
    I was one of the kids that took over the party.  And look what happened.  I thought Mr. Unity would do a better job at it instead of blowing it assunder. I guess it's Karma.  

    [ Parent ]
    I prefer my nostalgic assessment of (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:36:16 PM EST
    McGovern not as Mr. Unity but as Mr. Right on getting out of Vietnam now.  

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed... (none / 0) (#113)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:38:19 PM EST
    How many states did we lose?  49....

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe we should a blog devoted (5.00 / 0) (#114)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:39:48 PM EST
    to Why McGovern Lost.

    [ Parent ]
    It hurt. (none / 0) (#116)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:44:26 PM EST
    Memories still painful.  I had convinced a nephew who was 12 at the time to go for McGovern and they did a straw poll in his class and he was the only one.  He still has trauma--blames me.  

    [ Parent ]
    Thats simple (none / 0) (#139)
    by Tano on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:16:57 PM EST
    he was against the war.
    Single issue.
    By time election day rolled around, our involvement was effectivly over.


    [ Parent ]
    You are fair and objective. (5.00 / 0) (#155)
    by ghost2 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:34:45 AM EST
    and you acknowledge the crap that is hurled in Hillary's way.  

    I didn't know so much misogeny existed in leftly blogsphere.  This election opened my eyes, and of many other women's.

    [ Parent ]

    Hey BTD Did You Legally Change Your Name (none / 0) (#126)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:32:34 PM EST
    This was in the comments at TPM on MO GMA interview. Thought you might get a laugh out of it. Couldn't post on MO post. Just too full.

    Yeah! Paul Rosenberg, writing as Big Tent Democrat, was spreading the vapors about this earlier. The truth is: she said everyone would support the nominee of the party. She failed to say she would campaign for the nominee, which is understandable given the Clintons' behavior post-Iowa through South Carolina. I don't even know if I can vote for HRC. And I know all you TPM people will say that's immature, but they weren't talking about you. Were they?


    [ Parent ]
    Taylor Marsh (none / 0) (#138)
    by Tano on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:14:34 PM EST
    is a complete, over the top, Hillary lover. And Obama hater. And all she seems to do is to find new themes around which to express that.

    [ Parent ]
    coming from Obama supporters (none / 0) (#156)
    by ghost2 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:35:26 AM EST
    this expressions are funny.  Thanks for the laugh of the day.

    [ Parent ]
    Geek endorses Hillary. Has Hell (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:53:25 PM EST
    frozen over?

    Check it on on DK.  An amazind diary.

    ULTRA Geek (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:03:21 PM EST
    an old dkos hand.

    Used to war with him in the Clark-Dean days.

    [ Parent ]

    Big difference. (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:06:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes. I remember. (none / 0) (#85)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:06:56 PM EST
    And now we are all with Hillary while you are...somwhere else.

    [ Parent ]
    I see glacial incremental change. (none / 0) (#92)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:17:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Global warming (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:20:47 PM EST
    is our only hope?

    Jeez Louise!  Oh, wait...better not say "Louise..."

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (none / 0) (#94)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:19:51 PM EST
    Let me ask you something, do you really think WHO I support matters that much?

    Heck, anything I write matter not at all.

    I just write what I think. I have zero influence.

    I had a little more on Iraq funding last year, which demonstrates how pathetic my influence level is on this.

    [ Parent ]

    Not in the larger picture...no. (none / 0) (#101)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:28:51 PM EST
    What you write or I write or, evidently, what Wes Clark writes doesn't matter "that much."

    Zero influence?  Probably wrong about that.  Zero?  Nah.  

    We all have influence on others which isn't measurable...or even known.  But dialogue about real politics and real candidates may open the minds of some to see -- something or someone -- in a way they didn't see before.  Education.  Ideas.  Facts.

    It doesn't matter?  We are only engaging in entertainment?

    Good to know.

    [ Parent ]

    I write what I think (none / 0) (#117)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:50:38 PM EST
    which matters to me.

    If it entertains you, that is a bonus, for you.

    [ Parent ]

    Well.....try not to take this too (none / 0) (#132)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:21:55 PM EST
    personally but the act needs work if you're going to take it on the road and charge admission!  Of course, costumes and background music would be good...and if you could work up a rap delivery you'd be a hit with the kiddies...but then you'd lose me and the older folks.  Oh, well...

    Online...more engaging than most.

    [ Parent ]