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Ras Poll: Clinton Leads In OH By 8, TX By 3

By Big Tent Democrat

Rasmussen sez:

OHIO

Clinton 48 (51)
Obama 40 (37)

TEXAS

Clinton 47 (54)
Obama 44 (38)

This is the new state of the race. Clearly Clinton is holding better in Ohio than Texas. She needs both. Some interesting findings on the flip.

In Texas:
Clinton leads by ten points among women but trails by five points among men. . . . In a pattern seen elsewhere, Clinton leads among White voters and Latino voters while trailing badly among African-Americans. Clinton leads by big margins among those 65 and older while Obama does better among voters under 65. Clinton leads among Democrats while Obama leads among Independent voters likely to take part in the Primary.
We seem to be back in the old demographic mode from before. One of the most curious things about this result from Rasmussen is that while Clinton leads among women by 10 and only trails among men by 5, her overall lead is only 3. This means Ras projects more men than women in the Texas contest. This would be the FIRST time that has happened. In the 2004 GENERAL ELECTION, women were 55% of the TOTAL electorate. And yet Ras expects that in a Democratic primary, women will be less than 50% of the turnout. Let me put it bluntly, I do not believe it. If the gender breakdowns among Clinton and Obama are accurate, then imo, Ras is understating Clinton's lead.

In Ohio, Ras sez:
Clinton leads by twenty points among women. That’s little changed from a week ago. However, in the previous poll, Clinton also held the advantage among men. Now, she trails Obama by ten among male voters. Clinton does better among lower-income voters and older voters.

Yet again, Ras is predicting more MALE voters than women voters in Ohio. Again in the 2004 General Election, women were 53% of the electorate. So Ras is AGAIN predicting less women voters in a Democratic primary than in a general election.

Clinton may be doing better than we think.

NOTE - I flunked math in college.

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  • Display: Sort:
    I wouldn't have thought men (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 02:57:25 PM EST
    hated Hillary Clinton so much they would be first time voters.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Steve M on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:00:31 PM EST
    The midpoint of a 10-point lead and a 5-point deficit is a 2.5 point lead.  If equal numbers of men and women voted, the result would be a 2.5 point Clinton lead.

    So if Clinton has a 3-point lead, that suggests that Rasmussen's electorate is composed of slightly more women than men.  Now, they might still be understating the expected gender differential, but I don't believe you're correct to say Ras expects more men than women.

    You are right (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:01:47 PM EST
    Egg on my face.

    Parent
    Strange looking post, (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:05:32 PM EST
    and this time it isn't about conjunctions.

    Parent
    Show your errors (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:07:33 PM EST
    It is the honest thing to do.

    Parent
    You already said why Ras thinks it's close (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by goldberry on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:05:57 PM EST
    There are going to be many "independents" voting in Texas and they are determined to get Obama the nomination and not because they particularly like him.  I'll bet they'll turn out in droves.

    I am so sick of our elections being gamed by the (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by athyrio on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:06:53 PM EST
    republicans...

    Not as easily as in Wisconsin -- BTD (none / 0) (#36)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 04:55:59 PM EST
    you also might want to see pollster.com's discussion of Ohio and Wisconsin.  Demographic comparisons are not new; we've discussed them here.  But here we also we told that Ohio is also an open primary -- but it's not the same; it's a "semi-open" primary that could reduce the massive crossover seen in Wisconsin.  Comments there also have some good stuff about Ohio not being on Illinois' border or, for that matter, borders of states with overlapping media markets, so Ohioans would have seen fewer ads and coverage from previous primary states, as occurred on every one of Wisconsin's borders.  Etc.

    Parent
    Whoops (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by spit on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:23:08 PM EST
    for what it's worth, I've passed a fair amount of math, and I still make far dumber mistakes than this one all the time.

    I really wish their internals were more broadly available. I never really trust a poll I can't take a look at under the hood.

    Fair ?? (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by nycblue on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 06:32:33 PM EST
    In NY, approximately 1.7 million voted in the Democratic Primary.  There are 232 delegates tied to the primary (with another 49 automatic delegates).  That means that NY had approximately 7,300 voters per delegate.

    Contrast that with Maine, with caucuses attended by 46,000 voters. Maine has 24 delegates tied to caucuses (also closed).  That comes to approximately 1,900 voters per delegate!

    Then you add in the rural/urban vote advantages, past voting pattern allocations, OPEN primaries and caucuses. It is a crazy and unrepresentative system.

    Come Back Kid II (none / 0) (#2)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 02:57:23 PM EST

    She may be the Come Back Kid II!

    Ramsmussen (none / 0) (#8)
    by Prabhata on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:03:42 PM EST
    Ras is a very bad pollster. IVR 02/20 gives Clinton a better edge.  It's too early to know who'll do well in TX.

    its not the precise #'s from Ras (none / 0) (#35)
    by jor on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 04:24:08 PM EST
    .. its the fact that her lead from the last Ras a week ago was cut in half. This is IVR's first poll in a  while in TX.

    Parent
    Sniping Deleted (none / 0) (#9)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:03:57 PM EST
    Let's not snipe or insult each other please.

    The Rasmussen Texas poll was pre-debate. I wonder if  the debate will be a bounce for her.

    I'm still concerned about Texas' method of awarding delegates...that those with higher voter turnout in recent elections get more delegates. I think that hurts her because South Texas will get many fewer delegates.

    Yes (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:05:07 PM EST
    I should have just deleted but it bothered me that I was accused of something that a simple reading of the post would have made clear was false.

    Parent
    One other thing (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:11:23 PM EST
    In Nevada the more Republican areas got apportioned more delegates, thus diluting the votes of other voters.

    Now in Texas, the more Democratic areas got apportioned more delegates, AGAIN diluting the votes of other voters.

    I guess both are labelled "party building" by defenders. Hard to make rhyme or reason of the "party building" strategies though.

    Parent

    I've never (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jgarza on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:15:22 PM EST
    justified it like that.  I think caucuses can be party building.  

    The delegate proportion system is reality, and a good campaign should be able to formulate a strategy to deal with it, rather then complain about it.

    Parent

    For once (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:16:19 PM EST
    can you think about voters' rights instead of candidates' fortunes?

    Parent
    history tells us no (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:19:34 PM EST
    Obviously not (none / 0) (#22)
    by andgarden on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:19:57 PM EST
    I am not sure that the McGovern race in 1972 (none / 0) (#43)
    by hairspray on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:14:36 PM EST
    did much party building for the Democrats.

    Parent
    In fact (none / 0) (#23)
    by Steve M on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:20:41 PM EST
    Weighting urban vs. rural areas isn't the worst distortion of the "one man, one vote" principle in the caucus system.  The worst is the concept that each precinct only gets X delegates regardless of the actual turnout.  You wind up being punished for living in an area with large numbers of Democrats - your individual vote counts for virtually nothing in the caucus system.

    Indeed, past the point at which you have enough of an edge to win all the delegates in a district, additional turnout matters not at all.  It doesn't matter if you win the precinct 10-0 or 1000-0.  Conversely, in a primary system, every single voter counts the same towards the statewide total, regardless of where they happen to live.

    Another really wacky distortion is created by the existence of precincts with either an even or odd number of delegates.  If you have an even number, a 2-way race is very likely to split the delegates 50-50 regardless of who "wins," unless they win by a huge margin.  But in a precinct with an odd number of delegates, even a win by 50.01% of the votes is enough to get you the extra delegate.  Dumb.

    Parent

    Worse than that (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:34:01 PM EST
    BEcause of the finite number of delegate per district, thresholds have to be passed to get extra delegate.

    So in two districts, let's say, 6 delegates each, 51-49 gets you a 3-3 split. And if in the other district is 61-39, you also get a 3-3 split.

    IT is a ludicrous system.

    Parent

    If I remember correctly, (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:27:50 PM EST
    Iowa Dem. caucus rules base the number of delegates per caucus on how many people voted Dem. w/i the geographical confines of that caucus in the past two Presidential elections.  

    Parent
    Could be (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Steve M on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:34:31 PM EST
    That sounds like the typical system.  So you get no extra credit for bringing out a huge turnout in a particular precinct - say, a college campus - compared to previous years.  The same number of delegates are available no matter if you get every single voter to attend.

    Parent
    Mistakes happen (none / 0) (#15)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:10:27 PM EST
    I think this poll shows what we have seen throughout the race.  Clinton's numbers always erode, never expand.  Even the NH result was closer than it had been two weeks prior.  This is why I am certain in my opinion that Clinton would be a weak GE candidate.  She has many loyal supporters but doesn't attract much beyond that.

    Not so; Clinton ahead again in Gallup (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:29:34 PM EST
    tracking poll, quite a reverse for Obama.  

    Parent
    He was 3 now she's up 1 (none / 0) (#29)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:33:40 PM EST
    That not quite a reverse by any reasonable standard.

    Parent
    He was up 7 a few days ago (none / 0) (#34)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:43:36 PM EST
    but whether by 3 or by 7, please reply to the point as to whether your statement was correct that Clinton never has eroded an Obama lead.  Thanks.

    Parent
    I was comparing Gallup to Gallup (none / 0) (#42)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:24:31 PM EST
    and originally speaking of state polls. What you have pointed out is within the margin of error of each poll.  You could say California but I think the polling results there did not take into account early voting. Plus the final 9 point win was much less than the 18-20 point lead she had enjoyed earlier.

    Parent
    Ok; you never said state polls (none / 0) (#45)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:23:11 PM EST
    and those are different.  (Considered less valid and reliable than the multi-day tracking poll, though.)

    Parent
    I will bet a great deal (none / 0) (#18)
    by Baal on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:16:16 PM EST
    that these polls are underestimating or somehow not sampling what will be an unprecedented African American turnout in Texas.

    Very possible (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:17:11 PM EST
    And if it so, Obama wins.

    And the celebration begins march 5 in the Obama camp.

    Parent

    except, if the delegate (none / 0) (#46)
    by cpinva on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 03:47:22 AM EST
    allocations are, as noted elsewhere, based on prior election turnout, and these people haven't voted before, it would seem to make no difference for sen. obama. even if the entire AA population of texas came out to vote, that wouldn't do him any good, since they haven't voted before.

    i think i'm now officially confused.

    Parent

    What happen in Wisconsin (none / 0) (#25)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:27:36 PM EST
    To open up the lead so much?  The polls were more wrong there than New Hampshire.  Anybody know?

    Open primary, GOP crossover (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:39:27 PM EST
    was huge -- probably not gauged correctly by pollsters, as most used more national models.

    Wisconsin primaries -- open, no party registration, etc. -- are historically unpredictable.  It was good for Dems in 1960, launching JFK on his way.

    But four years later, George Wallace came in second in the Wisconsin primary, said to be from GOP crossover -- a year when GOPS already had their candidate.  Their mischief was encouraged again this year on conservative talk radio and blogs, by the largest paper in the state, etc.

    This is only one reason why Wisconsin results should not matter.  But national media need a horse race.  (Btw, other reasons include that Wisconsin has comparatively few delegate votes -- so results did not split that significantly, with 42 pledged delegates for Obama and 32 for Clinton.)

    Parent

    Cream City, (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by sancho on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 05:06:10 PM EST
    Do you think Obama will keep those crossover voters in WI come November? Thanks.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#44)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:21:57 PM EST
    I've gone into this at greater length in earlier comments so will keep this short, and you can look back for those. . . .

    I live next to and lived for years in Wisconsin in the fourth-reddest county in the country, full of white-flighters from Milwaukee.  Dems do not win there.  But it went two-to-one for Dems this week.

    Believe me, most will not be back in November.  Not there, not in a lot of parts of Wisconsin.  This is standard gaming in Wisconsin's open primary.  It was encouraged by conservative blogs and talk radio and even by the largest paper in the state.  The local blogs are full of folks chuckling about it -- it is the most fun the GOP can have until the snow melts.

    Keep in mind, too, that this was the closest state in the country in 2004.  It has been barely a Dem state for years.  Frankly, I think we will do a bit better in fall, but because of Bush -- not because of whomever is the Dem nominee.  But even that's a guess; I find it very hard to believe that one of the most segregated states in the country will vote for Obama again . . . although maybe so, since it is often pointed out here that he is not a "real" African American (i.e., he is not from a legacy of slavery).  Yeesh.

    Parent

    All Clintons exes will very soon live in Texas :-) (none / 0) (#37)
    by Aaron on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 05:02:56 PM EST
    Numbers moving dramatically in Obama's direction in the Lone Star State.

    2008 Texas Democratic Presidential Primary -- Pollster