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What The DNC FL Fiasco Can Cost Us: FL In The GE

By Big Tent Democrat

Thanks Howard. Thanks Donna. Way to go:

The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey in Florida shows John McCain holding a six-percentage point lead over Hillary Clinton and an even larger lead—sixteen percentage points—over Barack Obama. It’s McCain 49% Clinton 43% and McCain 53% Obama 37%.

The DNC is an incompetent organization looking to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Update (TL): Comments almost to 200, this thread is closing. Thanks for your thoughts.

< Hillary : Wausau Today, Madison Tonight | Barack Obama - Deval Patrick Thread II >
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  • Display: Sort:
    My suggestion (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:15:51 PM EST
    Bite the bullet and schedule a primary for MI and FL on April 22nd, to coincide with Pennsylvania. Let the DNC pay for it.

    I'm Not Sure They Can (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:23:03 PM EST
    I think the primaries in Michigan and Florida are state-run (state voting equipment, etc.), I don't think the DNC can just decide to hold primaries there and pay for it, unless the DNC is also going to provide (e.g. pay for) its own equipment, its own monitors, and its own polling places.  

    [ Parent ]
    Well this could be Hillary's trump card (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:24:56 PM EST
    "nominate me or we lose Florida."

    [ Parent ]
    And Michigan ;-) (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:25:49 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Just fix it already (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:27:42 PM EST
    damn it.

    Fix the mess you made Donna Brazile and Howard Dean.

    [ Parent ]

    How is this on Donna Brazille and Howard Dean? (none / 0) (#207)
    by inkognegro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:20:54 PM EST
    Of course John McCain is up 16 on Barack Obama.  He has never campaigned there.

    and how meaningful is a 16 point lead 10 months out?  

    This isn't new.  

    Florida new the consequences and proceeded anyway.  Where was all this hue and cry back in September?

    [ Parent ]

    FL will be (none / 0) (#18)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:26:52 PM EST
    seated in the end.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah. And this poll is taken when Obama (none / 0) (#19)
    by Teresa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:27:31 PM EST
    is absolutely riding a high right now. Just wait until the attacks come and he will be creamed in Florida. HC might too, but at least she's fighting for them.

    [ Parent ]
    well... (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:17:35 PM EST
    I guess I've got my answer to my earlier question: "Could we possibly be more stupid...?"

    Sure We Could (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:28:32 PM EST
    Donna Brazile could be running one of the campaigns or, worse, she could be running a campaign with Bob Shrum.

    See?  It can always get worse.

    [ Parent ]

    Ugh, I just threw up in my mouth a little (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by RalphB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:49:59 PM EST
    picturing that  :-)


    [ Parent ]
    I know I don't contribute much to the discourse (none / 0) (#137)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:28:13 PM EST
    But I love that line, RalphB

    [ Parent ]
    An old line but sometimes it (none / 0) (#141)
    by RalphB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:31:21 PM EST
    just fits the situation perfectly.  :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Shouldn't there be an acronym? (none / 0) (#200)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:19:03 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    obvioulsy no we couldn't be more stupid (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by RalphB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:32:53 PM EST
    at this point, I wonder if seating the delegates will matter for Obama in Florida?  I wouldn't be surprised if Florida voters are so mad they won't vote for him anyway.  Fighting it has likely killed any chance he would have had there.

    He better campaign really hard in Idaho, Utah, and the rest of those lovely bright red states if he's the nominee.  :-)


    [ Parent ]

    From the right (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    Five follies of Obama to watch for in the general election -- a preview of coming attacks.

    Here's another: (none / 0) (#202)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:25:07 PM EST
    wow! (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Turkana on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:20:48 PM EST
    so, hillary's support for seating the delegates (however politically motivated) is worth roughly ten points. wow!

    Completely Predictable (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:21:03 PM EST
    This result was completely predictable.  It sets up for Floridians to be angry with Democrats generally and to be angry with Obama in particular (since he lost Florida, he naturally is going to fight against seating the delegates, thus angering Floridians even more).

    One of the things I agree with Chris Bowers (at least I think it was him) on is that if the Democratic nominee loses in November, the entire leadership of the party should step down because in addition to being a failure by the candidate, it would be a failure by the party.  This is a prime example of that.

    OTOH, Turkana at The Leftcoaster has a timely reminder of just how ridiculous it is to take any GE match ups seriously so far out from the election, BREAKING!!! Dukakis surges to huge lead!!!, reminding one and all that Michael Dukakis had a 55-38 lead over Bush in July 1988 and how much changed in four months, less than half the time we have remaining.

    Excuse me (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:23:38 PM EST
    The WHY of this is apparent to anyone with a brain.

    I have been in Florida a lot lately and the anger about this delegate thing is palpable.

    [ Parent ]

    Totally (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:34:08 PM EST
    And after the disaster that was the Kerry campaign, I kind of regretted having not been more enthused about Howard Dean.   I think I can honestly say - I'm over it.

    [ Parent ]
    This has to be fixed and soon (none / 0) (#87)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:58:31 PM EST
    My Florida friends and family feel that their votes have been discounted and they are no longer part of the election process as I believe any of you who have voted in other states would feel. And I have heard two strong Democrats say to me that if their vote is not counted in the primary, then they just might avoid the GE. They are on the borderline waiting to see what the DNC will do.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, that's an important swing state and (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Teresa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:22:04 PM EST
    Obama looks really bad. I guess if they did have a new election, HC would still win.

    I have given up and accepted that Obama will win the primary, but if I had to bet, I'd bet on McCain in the general. Conservative Democrats like here in TN, will choose experience. I doubt we can take TN either way, but I think moderate to conservative Democrats everywhere will not be as enthused about Obama in November as they are now.

    so one poll in FL (none / 0) (#22)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:28:29 PM EST
    is better than all the national polls with Obama winning?

    [ Parent ]
    You can't eat a national poll (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:29:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    This is a state poll and a very important one. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Teresa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:29:44 PM EST
    National polls don't matter.

    [ Parent ]
    Whistling past he graveyard (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:31:14 PM EST
    Obama has to bite the bullet on this. for the good of the Party. He has to do a deal on Florida delegates.

    [ Parent ]
    But Remember... (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Alvord on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:49:02 PM EST
    ...Obama is going to win South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Lousiana, Nebraska, Idaho and Alaska in the general election.

    Right? Right?

    [ Parent ]

    Forgot Utah :-) (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by RalphB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:55:24 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes, ... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Alvord on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:59:27 PM EST
    ...how could I forget Utah. Another sure state Obama will put in the Democratic column.

    [ Parent ]
    You forgot Utah (none / 0) (#84)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:57:55 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    is that like (none / 0) (#151)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:39:29 PM EST
    You forgot Poland? :-)


    [ Parent ]
    No, but if we are using current (none / 0) (#94)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:03:27 PM EST
    polling as a guide, Obama would win Colorado...and he has a good chance in Virigina and Missouri....

    Gore's states + Colorado (or Missouri or Virginia) = Democratic win.

    [ Parent ]

    Gore's states (none / 0) (#117)
    by Dan the Man on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:16:21 PM EST
    don't include New Hampshire which means you would lose if you just added Colorado.  You have to win a Southern border state like Missouri or Virginia if you just have Gore's states.

    [ Parent ]
    Okay, Gore's states + NH & Colorado = win (none / 0) (#154)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:43:42 PM EST
    I am assuming NH is pretty blue....

    But there are a number of redstates that Obama does well in....and could carry in November...

    [ Parent ]

    Obama dropping out from the lead (none / 0) (#56)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:42:53 PM EST
    is not good for the party.

    [ Parent ]
    Losing the GE (none / 0) (#61)
    by PlayInPeoria on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:45:34 PM EST
    Is not good for the party!!

    [ Parent ]
    WTF? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:55:13 PM EST
    Who said drop out? Are you nuts?

    [ Parent ]
    the new hoop seems to be (none / 0) (#156)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:45:19 PM EST
    However wins FL in this one poll should be the nom.

    [ Parent ]
    the question is will or would obama (none / 0) (#196)
    by hellothere on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:46:15 PM EST
    bite the bullet for the good of the party? i have doubts.

    [ Parent ]
    Where's Kid Oakland to explain about (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:22:06 PM EST
    local party building:

    However, the poll contains hints that suggest the controversy over Florida's convention delegates may be hurting Obama. Most notably, just 55% of Sunshine State Democrats say they would vote for Obama over McCain. Thirty-one percent (31%) say they would vote for McCain. These results are especially striking given that Obama leads McCain among unaffiliated voters in the state.

    Florida was stripped of its seats at the Democratic National Convention as a penalty for holding its Primary before February 5. The candidates did not campaign in the state and Hillary Clinton handily won the popular vote. Now, Clinton is calling for the Florida delegates to be seated while Obama disagrees.

    The survey also shows that McCain leads Obama by twenty-six points among women. Women are Hillary Clinton's strongest demographic. McCain leads Obama by twenty-five points among Senior Citizens, another demographic group that is generally supportive of Clinton.



    Damn (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:23:53 PM EST
    That's unacceptable.

    [ Parent ]
    No one believes me (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:26:22 PM EST
    I've been telling folks for weeks now that people are PISSED about this delegate thing here in Florida.

    No one wants to believe it.

    [ Parent ]

    I believe it. (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:36:00 PM EST
    It's absurd to think this won't kill us in the fall...any fool should be able to see that.

    Seat Florida.

    Run a primary in Michigan.

    [ Parent ]

    I said this the other day (none / 0) (#153)
    by hairspray on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:41:23 PM EST
    Seat Florida and hold a primary in Michigan.  The Obama people will have a fit, but a deal with Hillary for 4 years and Obama as VP to take over in 2012 will work.  A few people will have to swallow hard, but it would pull out chestnuts out of the fire IMHO.

    [ Parent ]
    So, crown Hillary? (none / 0) (#158)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:48:32 PM EST
    & deal with it--that's you answer.....

    You will lose the African American vote & a lot of independents over that....

    Easy for you to say:  Just let us win & deal with it....That's uhmm fair?

    I'm outta here if Hillary wins any way other than having a lead in pledged delegates (not including Fl and Mich.) And I won't be alone...

    [ Parent ]

    We will not lose the aa vote (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:56:48 PM EST
    if Obama takes the VP because in order for this to happen, he will have to put a public face on his acceptance that sends the message that this is fair.

    I think folks tend to forget that the blogosphere represents maybe 10% (at most) of the party.  Most people use the net for kitten war and porn (or both) and do not get become embroiled in the heady, heated machinations that go on here.  

    Many aa's feel as if two of their close friends are fighting, and they would be happy to see a peaceful resolution so they can all go to the movies together again.

    And if you don't vote for the dem nominee in November, then I hope McCain drafts you for his 100 year war.  You can reflect on your good choices while  you pick sand out of your hiney.

    [ Parent ]

    You underestimate (none / 0) (#176)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:11:56 PM EST
    the hurt the African American community feels over Bill's comments in South Carolina...Yes, I know, many Democrats take for granted their most loyal voters....

    I am not a loyal Democrat...I am an Independent...and vote for Republicans when the Democrat is corrupt, and have done so recently....My views are most like Lincoln Chafee (who voted against the Iraq war.)   So, yes, you can toss me off, but there are millions like me....

    And Hillary is a hawk....Please, she will ask for a plan that will begin a withdrawal.  And her Iraq vote....

    [ Parent ]

    you underestimate (none / 0) (#177)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:13:38 PM EST
    Obama as VP's ability to change and unite.

    [ Parent ]
    You think Hillary can make him take it? (none / 0) (#198)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:56:00 PM EST
    To be third banana behind Bill?  I have heard the idea is for Obama to run for governor of Illinois....

    [ Parent ]
    BTD, send your legal thoughts to someone (none / 0) (#30)
    by Teresa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:31:03 PM EST
    who can fix this.

    [ Parent ]
    they know what to do (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:32:30 PM EST
    Will Dean and Brazile continue this sham?

    [ Parent ]
    they have no choice (none / 0) (#67)
    by white n az on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:48:40 PM EST
    they cannot possibly deal with the underlying issue...

    • 1.7 million dems voted in the primary in FL
    • if they seat these delegates, Obama supporters claim foul by Hillary.
    • if they don't seat those delegates, there's disenfranchisement.

    To rail about it isn't good enough...you have to offer a solution and unfortunately, there isn't one.

    [ Parent ]
    I ahve the solution and offered it (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:54:34 PM EST
    No, the problem is no one wants it, not the DNC, not Obama, not Clinton.

    All of them are being criminally stupid right now.

    [ Parent ]

    don't expect Hillary to get enthusiastic (none / 0) (#90)
    by white n az on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:00:10 PM EST
    about any idea that tosses away the votes that people actually went to the polls to cast. That would be political suicide - and to do so to satisfy BTD's sense of fairness might not seem to be a good idea to her.

    [ Parent ]
    So Obama (none / 0) (#80)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:55:30 PM EST
    has to come out in favor of seating the delegates....if he's as big a man as he pretends to be.

    That is the answer.  If he's such a great leader, he needs to LEAD.  He needs to do what's right because it' RIGHT, because doing the right thing is in his best interests in the long run....

    This general election "transcends Obama".

    [ Parent ]

    Wait a minute (none / 0) (#150)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:36:11 PM EST
    They had an election there. Democrats voted there for all the candidates. How can one say don't seat them because I lost? Both were on the ballot. If Hillary had lost I would say the same. Just seat them. This needs to be resolved now.

    As for Michigan, maybe that was just a big political  mistake learned by Obama and Edwards. They choose to remove their names. The operative word is "Choose". Now, they should just say Do Overs and the one candidate wants all the uncommitted votes and delegates?

    [ Parent ]

    Don't leave Nancy Pelosi... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Alvord on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:50:23 PM EST
    ...off of your list. She wants to exclude Florida too.

    [ Parent ]
    I think they seat FL (none / 0) (#96)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:04:07 PM EST
    and they should. But if that is the case how will they enforce dates in the future? If there is no penalty for breaking the rules.

    Not asking to make an arguement against seating, but really want to know.

    [ Parent ]

    How does it look that they did nothing (4.00 / 1) (#116)
    by rebecca on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:15:38 PM EST
    to 3 states out of the 5 that broke the rules while over punishing FL and MI.  FL in particular, the Democrats there did all they could to stop the legislature from bumping past the Feb 5 date.  Why should we be punishing one state for the sins of the Republicans?  The sad part is that this bungle by the DNC may end up costing us the election.

    [ Parent ]
    You're right of course (none / 0) (#143)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:32:13 PM EST
    But they didn't punish the other states that broke the rules, so this wouldn't be that big of a step back.

    rules rules rules we need 'em.

    [ Parent ]

    On January 27th before Super Tuesday (none / 0) (#130)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:24:33 PM EST
    I never write diaries but maybe once a year. On Jan 27th I wrote a DK diary titled "If I lived in Florida, I would be pissed." Some did not want to hear anything about Florida but others agreed that the primary season needs to be revamped in a more fair and balanced playing field. I had a BB poll of my own. Out of the 78 people who voted, only 3 thought it should stay the same and they were 3 who had already voted. AND, Edwards was still in the race at this point.  

    The comments against Florida basically stated that it was the Democratic legislators who went along with the Republicans and it was these Dems who should be blamed and not the DNC. Two things. I blame the DNC for making the threat and not telling the Dems to hang tough. I blame the Dems for giving the GOP a win win situation in Florida and it is. We get to argue, look like heavy handed old time political bosses, and we alienate the voters in Florida.

    [ Parent ]

    I did (none / 0) (#201)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:19:37 PM EST
    I've  been saying  the  same  for  weeks.

    But  dayum,   if   he  can't  carry  women or  senior  citizens  in FLorida,   he  loses. Period.

    [ Parent ]

    More proof of brain drain (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Jim J on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:22:08 PM EST
    I firmly believe that one of the issues the Democratic Party has faced over the last two decades has been a steady brain drain of its best and brightest, leaving behind only the most corrupt and stupid.

    In effect, the party has self-selected into defeat, "Dr." Dean, Donna Brazile, Bob Shrum, et al, being the poster children for the syndrome.

    Hopefully now that it's finally cool to be a Democrat -- for the first time since Watergate, I guess -- we'll see an influx of competence.

    An influx of competence? (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:30:19 PM EST
    Something to be devoutly wished for...in the party and in government.

    With Hillary, that's the minimum we'll get but at least it's a sure thing.

    Obama?  Roll the dice...

    McCain?  Prayer will be back in style in both parties...

    [ Parent ]

    The Democratic Consultant Class (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:37:45 PM EST
    Seems to me to be fairly useless across the board.   Axelrod looks like a genius, but if Obama had 5% less talent, he'd have been out of it long ago.  Penn is also an idiot, IMO.

    The one person who might yet impress is Maggie Williams.  If she turns Clinton's campaign around, then I think we may have found a competent winner, but that's a big if at this point.

    [ Parent ]

    Not if we keep losing. (none / 0) (#45)
    by RalphB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:36:12 PM EST
    the brain drain will only increase.

    [ Parent ]
    seat Fl delegates (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by democrat1 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:23:37 PM EST
    because both Obama and Clinton are on the ballot and Obama even ran TV ads.  Michigan is different story as only Clinton is on the ballot.  May be they should have a separate Demcratic Party Primary if rules permit or accept the inevitable Mccain Presidency

    michigan (none / 0) (#121)
    by sancho on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:18:04 PM EST
    remember, only edwards and obama pulled their names off the ballot. the others stayed on--hillary was not alone on the ballot. using the dnc as cover, edwards ("count every vote") and obama in effect disenfranchised michigan voters.  

    [ Parent ]
    MI might but (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Saul on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:23:51 PM EST
    Florida will probably not agree for a second primary. If you do not take the vote like it showed in  Florida originally you will disenfranchise those voters who voted for Hilary and Obama and they will stay home on the general election just out of protest for the way the DNC ends up treating them. From what happen in 2000 they will not trust the numbers coming out of a second primary. So what happens you say if they do not treat the Floridians fair?  2000 happens again.

    If the poll holds, (none / 0) (#83)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:56:56 PM EST
    Obama probably loses in FL with or without a caucus.  I wonder how they are going to spin this.

    [ Parent ]
    Does Obama need to win (none / 0) (#100)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:05:56 PM EST
    Flordia in a Primary to win the nom? Even seated as it it is not enough to push Hillary ahead. No spin needed.

    [ Parent ]
    OMG, this is going to be such a slaughter (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by athyrio on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:26:20 PM EST
    in the GE, I am so depressed about it, and I hope and pray we can turn it around.  Karl Rove must be toasting himself these days about his "divide and conquer" strategy...All I can say is after November, if Obama is the nominee and loses this election, his name will be mud in the democratic party as far as I am concerned...and all he had to do was agree to be the VP and coast along for 8 yrs while obtaining experience which he really needs and he was set for life...what a waste...I completely blame Ted Kennedy and John Kerrey for all this mess in their excessive Clinton hatred and jealousy...IMO...

    I have the same sinking feeling (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jim J on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:44:37 PM EST
    Because of his meteoric ascent, when Obama's flameout comes it will be doubly spectacular.

    [ Parent ]
    Pretty fireworks though :-) (none / 0) (#85)
    by RalphB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:58:03 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    flameout (none / 0) (#97)
    by white n az on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:04:17 PM EST
    that isn't gonna happen...

    Obama is in this thing to stay and as far as I can see...he's winning

    [ Parent ]

    People don't like it when their (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by tigercourse on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:27:50 PM EST
    elections are just shams? I'm shocked!

    They don't like it (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:28:47 PM EST
    when one candidate tells them that their vote is a sham.

    [ Parent ]
    huh? (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Nasarius on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:38:13 PM EST
    The issue here is that not seating the FL delegates absolutely screws the Democrats, but especially Obama, who is in the position of arguing against seating them.

    Do you disagree with any of that?

    I assume you are respondong to a deleted (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:39:10 PM EST
    Off topic post.

    you have it EXACTLY right.

    [ Parent ]

    All you Obama supporters don't realize that (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by athyrio on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:46:29 PM EST
    you are winning a battle but losing the war....which is HUGE AND IMPORTANT TO THE PARTY AND THIS NATION.....

    That why Hillary (none / 0) (#104)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:08:00 PM EST
    is double digits below Obama in national polls?

    [ Parent ]
    McCain (none / 0) (#106)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:08:34 PM EST
    match ups. Not Primary.

    [ Parent ]
    you can't be serious (none / 0) (#144)
    by white n az on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:32:53 PM EST
    • a poll of 400/500/600 voters is just a random sampling and not the type of thing to make bank on

    • the poll results a few weeks ago were decidedly different as they will be a few weeks from now

    • the only 'poll' that actually counts is the one where people actually go to polling places and vote and if you think that it is preferable to make decisions on random sampling polls over those where people actually turn off their televisions and go to a polling place and vote, you really need a reality check.


    [ Parent ]
    But they voted already (none / 0) (#155)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:44:20 PM EST
    And as they see the entire primary winding down to needing every single vote, they are getting annoyed that their vote will not count. Wouldn't you?
    I am sure by next week, the poll will show even more voters not amused at the DNC candidates.

    [ Parent ]
    Check out the Quinnipiac poll (none / 0) (#161)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:50:32 PM EST
    released four days ago....It shows McCain leading only by 1 over Hillary and by two over Obama....

    I have posted the link in a post below...

    One poll and everyone rushes over the cliff.  Sheesh....

    [ Parent ]

    It is about the polls and the people we know in Fl (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:15:45 PM EST
    BTD spends a lot of time in Florida. He knows what the general feeling is among the Democrats there.

    I grew up in Florida. I talk to about 3 diffent Floridians a week. Family members in Ft. Pierce.(5)
    College friends in Ft. Lauderdale. (3), College friends in Port St Lucie (2, friends in West Palm Beach (2). All loyal Democrats with the exception of one iffy Indy in WPB. They all and I want to emphasis that, are getting mad that their vote will not count and are getting mad at the DNC. They are seeing the election being close and they want their vote recorded along with the rest of the country. They were not as mad in the beginning and this particular new poll reflects that new anger. AND, their votes were all split 3 ways.

    [ Parent ]

    The flip side of the coin (none / 0) (#109)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:10:54 PM EST
    is that if Hillary uses the Florida delegates to get around an Obama lead in pledged delegates to win the nomination.....you will most likely lose many, many Obama supporters.

    The African-American community would be devastated and stay at home....And after Bill's comments in South Carolina, to pull a fast one to deprive Obama of the nomination, will not sell.

    As to it's working, I actually think Hillary may win Wisconsin and has a good chance of winning the nomination...

    BTD suggests a deal whereby half the delegates are seated, and who knows this may yet occur....but it cannot be outcome determinative...

    [ Parent ]

    Nothing is likely to be outcome determinative (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:12:36 PM EST
    anymore.

    This is going to the Super Delegates.

    [ Parent ]

    Fine, do a deal (none / 0) (#147)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:33:48 PM EST
    It was always assumed that seating the delegations would not be a problem because there would have been a clear winner....

    If that holds up and there is a clear winner, then Fl and Mich can be seated....Otherwise, it would be a big, big problem....

    I suppose you could do a caucus in Mich, and seat half the Fl delegates (as will the Republicans)....but if it changes the outcome....

    [ Parent ]

    talk about (none / 0) (#192)
    by sas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:17:58 PM EST
    unfair

    oh yeah, let's do a caucus - where about 1% of the voters show, and give Obama the edge

    not fair to Hillary - how about another primary
    - where she'd probably win

    there should be no do-overs

    Obama made a stupid mistake not to get on the michigan ballot.

    The people in Florida voted with the intent that they would get seated at the convention.

    The DNC is a bunch of LOSERS.

    [ Parent ]

    Not very satisfying (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:23:19 PM EST
    I don't like this argument because it suggests that we should only count the votes if they don't matter. I don't see how that helps put FL in the win column in November.

    [ Parent ]
    It won't help at all at this point. (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by RalphB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:34:28 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Voting Influence (none / 0) (#174)
    by solon on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:08:19 PM EST
    Currently, the votes in Florida matter to the extent it is influencing the overall election, and it is certainly doing that by the coverage it is receiving.

    The DNC may wait until March 4th to decide this matter. If Senator Obama can win Texas and look like the presumptive nominee, then the the Super Delegates may move to support Obama and, consequently, the vote for Florida will count but not be much of an advantage for Senator Clinton.

    If Senator Clinton wins March 4th and cuts Obama's lead, then Dean will no longer be able to ignore the issue.

    Making Florida count in November may be very hard since the Republicans argue that the Democrats silenced the people. No matter how Democrats counter with the problems of 2000, the emotional power of the recent problems may be more persuasive.

    The Democratic nominee should work in Florida but make certain he/she can win the other swing states: New Mexico, Colorado, Ohio, Missouri, and Virginia.

    [ Parent ]

    didn't HRC (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by NJDem on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:47:40 PM EST
    receive more votes than all of the GOP candidates combined in FL?  I could be wrong, but it was a significant enough of a victory that the fact that she's trailing McCain should be a serious wake up call.

    BTD has it right, talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...

    I also don't think that the Florida delegates (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by athyrio on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:08:18 PM EST
    will accept the halfing of their delegates at this point...they are so mad they want to be fully counted particularly if Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina are.....to do otherwise would be a travesty...

    They might accept it... (none / 0) (#122)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:18:52 PM EST
    depending on who makes the deal.

    Al Gore should stand up for Florida....at long last.

    [ Parent ]

    Florida and Michigan Delegates (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by loro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:13:29 PM EST
      My husband, daughter, two granddaughters, and I
    all voted for Hillary in the Michigan primary.
    The media here repeatedly told everyone who did not want to vote for Hillary to vote uncommitted."
    Obama's name was on the ballot originally and he
    made the choice to have it removed.  Dodd, Kucinich, and Hillary chose to keep their names on
    the ballot.  It was poor judgement by Obama - no
    one said they had to remove their names. I know
    the media here expected "uncommitted" to win -
    but the Hillary supporters surprised them.
      I am 71 years old, and the first president I
    voted for was JFK.  I have voted for every
    democrat since.  If our delegates are not counted
    and Obama wins the nomination, I will sit this
    election out.  He is not a true democrat.  His
    "democrat for a day" tactics and the "racist"
    accusations against Bill and Hillary have shown
    what he is all about.  I have no respect for him or Jesse Jackson, Jr.
    Loro

    I won't quite go that far (none / 0) (#115)
    by Jim J on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:15:27 PM EST
    as to not vote for him if he's the nominee, but I agree with everything else you've said.

    [ Parent ]
    Same for me--only the reverse (none / 0) (#165)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:58:33 PM EST
    I am officially an Independent but vote for Democrats--most of the time....

    I have voted recently for Republicans when the Democrat is corrupt....I voted to re-call Gray Davis the governor of the state of California when Ahnold got voted in....I supported Republican LA Mayor Richard Riordan.....

    I have admired, my views are most like, and I would have voted for, Lincoln Chafee the former Repubican Senator from Rhode Island (who voted against the Iraq war).  

    I would not vote for McCain, but many others would....I will not vote for Hillary if she wins in any way other than leading in pledged delegates (aside from Fl or Mich)  

    [ Parent ]

    This is something that really needs to be discusse (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by white n az on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:31:58 PM EST
    I will not vote for Hillary if she wins in any way other than leading in pledged delegates (aside from Fl or Mich)

    1 - There actually is litle difference between the candidates on most issues... See Same Corporatist Whine in New DLC Vessels from Firedoglake.com

    2 - Issues such as the war in Iraq, nominations to SCOTUS, etc. that are just too large to allow the election of John McCain to satisfy one's hurt sense of the way things ought to be.

    3 - Politics is now and has always been a very rough game and if Obama can't play the game well enough to win in the primary season, why on earth would anyone believe that he had a chance to win during the general election?

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe he can't (none / 0) (#194)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:35:27 PM EST
    But he is the only candidate for whom I have done anything other than vote....

    If he doesn't make it, and loses in a tricked up Hillary power move, I'm done with the Democratic Party....I'll go back to the middle where I always have been....

    I will wash my hands of what I always believed was the dirty game of politics and be gone....I know there are many others like me...

    [ Parent ]

    So Obama wins by ignoring two states....WOW (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by athyrio on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:44:37 PM EST
    ok after Obama loses in the general election (and I believe he will), he can join up with John Kerry and Ted Kennedy in their own LOSERS CLUB...and by the way, Clinton won't have to be in that club because he WON.....what is wrong with this picture...

    The DNC (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by sas on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:08:06 PM EST
    under Howard Dean is a bunch of friggin idiots.

    I am so ticked off at them I , I'm seeing "red".  

    What a bunch of nitwits for voting not to seat Florida and Michigan delegates - two states we need in the general election.

    Also, they know that there is going to be a bloodbath at the convention.  

    I also predict that McCain will win in a landslide if it's Obama.  Those Florida numbers are just the beginning.  The South, and the midwest will be solidly McCain - Florida included.
    And that's before the party is split at the convention.

    Dunderheads.

    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by tek on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:49:07 PM EST
    Amen (to the snatching defeat). I know Will Rogers said I'm not part of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat, but it's time to change.

    FL will be seated. (none / 0) (#26)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:29:43 PM EST
    likely at the full count.

    MI is a bit harder though.

    Not a good idea (none / 0) (#40)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:34:31 PM EST
    Florida and Michigan can be seated so long as they don't change the result...If they do, it would create a huge rift.....McCain wins....

    [ Parent ]
    Work it out! (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:36:00 PM EST
    WTF is wrong with you people?

    this is just amazing to me that you still are digging in your heels on this.

    Just reach a compromise. Half the delegates. Whatever you like.

    But this is bigger than Obama and Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:40:34 PM EST
    And, as you said, this has been obvious for some time.  If there weren't a total leadership vacuum in the party, Clinton and Obama would've been forced to sit down and work it out already.

    But as with so many things - Iraq, FISA, whatever - the Dem leaders are simply holding their breaths and hoping it works itself out so that they don't have to do anything.   Of course, that presumes there are any Dem leaders that have credibility with Obama and Clinton, other than Gore can anyone think of one?  Any one?  Bueller?  

    [ Parent ]

    Talk has it that our (none / 0) (#64)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:46:47 PM EST
    heroes...Kerry, Gore and Edwards are going to be the 'honest brokers' as party leaders on this one!  Oh my stars...like I'll buy that one.

    They've been meeting...

    [ Parent ]

    That's a brain trust (none / 0) (#68)
    by Jim J on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:49:01 PM EST
    Lord help us, this thing is still loseable after all, isn't it?

    [ Parent ]
    great (none / 0) (#101)
    by white n az on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:06:03 PM EST
    what do they all have in common?

    They all know how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    Help us...

    [ Parent ]

    Yes. Losers all.... (none / 0) (#107)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:08:59 PM EST
    and they all have their own reasons to favor Obama over Hillary.

    Honest brokers.  Don't make me laugh.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, BTD... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Jim J on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:48:22 PM EST
    Nothing's bigger than Obama, surely you have realized this by now. His is a movement that transcends party. Or so I've been told.

    [ Parent ]
    NO (none / 0) (#180)
    by Maddie In Florida on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:27:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    They won't change the result (none / 0) (#110)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:11:21 PM EST
    enough for her to win.

    Which is fine with me, and a testament to Obama's lead.

    [ Parent ]

    It is not about changing Obama's lead (none / 0) (#163)
    by hairspray on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:55:58 PM EST
    it is about counting the votes. If that doesn't keep Obama in the lead, you need to deal with it.

    [ Parent ]
    Just one poll (none / 0) (#34)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:32:04 PM EST
    after John McCain finished up a big campaign and big win....

    The Florida Democrats are to blame.   The DNC offered to pay for a separate Dem primary that was not prior to 2/5.  The Florida Democrats refused and are now trying to blame the Florida Republicans...

    As noted above (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:33:54 PM EST
    how do you operate a primary without the participation of the state?

    [ Parent ]
    By paying for it (none / 0) (#48)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:37:18 PM EST
    The DNC had it worked out for a separate primary....If you have any contrary info....

    [ Parent ]
    You are just wrong (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:40:21 PM EST
    And off topic.

    You want to be stubborn. WORK IT OUT.

    Clinton AND Obama. This is much bigger than either of them.

    FIX IT.

    [ Parent ]

    Off-topic? (none / 0) (#86)
    by MKS on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:58:13 PM EST
    Yes, I thought that would be coming...

    I am talking about seating the Florida delegation and why that should not occur......

    [ Parent ]

    Yes off topic (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:07:45 PM EST
    This is BIGGER than the merits of whether Florida falls under Rule 21.

    This is about winning in November.

    You can take you legal argument and do what with it when we lose FL in November.

    STOP being so petty.

    We need to work this out.

    [ Parent ]
    <