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When Is Participating "Not Participating?"

By Big Tent Democrat

Apparently, when you are Barack Obama:

Hillary Clinton and Obama each spent about $130,000 in Michigan while Obama spent $1.3 million in Florida--more than any other Democratic candidate and more than eight Republican candidates, who were eligible to win delegates from the state.

Yes, it seems clear the Florida playing field was NOT level. Obama outspent Clinton in Florida. Let the rationalizations begin.

Update (TL): Jerome at MyDD now has an update on this.

The link above also has this disclaimer posted, which I missed:
Now would be a good time to mention that measuring spending in a state is problematic. The biggest expenses—advertising, for one—are often spent with vendors outside the state, or even just over the state line. These figures measure only what was spent on the ground with local companies and individuals.

I'm not sure what they mean by that, but I took their initial reference to mean that Obama was spending money in the state. He did that, plenty, through television ads that aired in Florida. But it looks like the Center for Responsive Politics was sloppy in their inference to in-state spending for the two states that have delegates in limbo.

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    I want credit... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:20:02 AM EST
    I posted this here last night from the original source... Best part, outspent the Republicans
    Although the Democrats weren't able to earn delegates in Michigan or Florida, because the states scheduled early primaries without the national party's blessing, the hopefuls still spent nearly $3.4 million in those states. Hillary Clinton and Obama each spent about $130,000 in Michigan while Obama spent $1.3 million in Florida--more than any other Democratic candidate and more than eight Republican candidates, who were eligible to win delegates from the state.
    Center For Responsive Politics

    Thanks for a great post (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by PennProgressive on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:59:41 AM EST
    This was an issue that was brought up by Craig Crawford on the day of the Florida primary. He pointed out that on that very day he had watched six Obama commercial in Florida, but none for HRC. Of course his argument did not go anywhere--he  was on MSNBC.

    Parent
    I would like ... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by mindfulmission on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:40:17 AM EST
    ... to see what Hillary spent on Florida.

    I also agree that it depends on when the money was spent and what it was spent on.  

    But honestly... I don't think it was a "fair" context no matter what, for either candidate.  Neither could truly campaign, and it could have hurt either one, or both.  I would probably argue that it hurt Obama more than Clinton, but that is all speculation.

    Whining is not (1.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:56:48 AM EST
    becoming to frontrunners .

    Parent
    What... (none / 0) (#37)
    by mindfulmission on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:58:08 AM EST
    ... are you talking about?

    Where did I whine?

    Making false accusations is not becoming of anyone.

    Parent

    Oops...jumped (none / 0) (#41)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:01:09 AM EST
    on the not fair....sorry if I picked on you, I think I was more doing a group punishment. Sorry

    Parent
    That does not make it unfair (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:43:35 AM EST
    That makes it less ideal.

    but it is clearly much more ideal than almost every caucus held in this process.

    Moreover, the DNC violated its own rules when it punished Florida.

    I have offered a compromise solution that I think attends to all concerns.

    Parent

    It is fair (none / 0) (#45)
    by felizarte on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:08:03 AM EST
    on the basis of neither campaigning.  It was a level playing field.  I think you are only saying it because Clinton happened to win the vote there.

    Parent
    ugh. (none / 0) (#48)
    by mindfulmission on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:15:56 AM EST
    I am absolutely NOT just saying that because Clinton won.

    I think Clinton would have won Florida regardless of whether or not they campaigned there.  

    And as BTD pointed out... maybe fair is not the right word.  

    I guess I would say it like this.  I don't think that Florida would have the same results if both campaigned there.  That doesn't mean that Obama would have won.  I just think that the election would have looked differently.

    Parent

    I apologize (none / 0) (#63)
    by felizarte on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:46:55 AM EST
    and I agree that the results would be different had the two campaigned there, but it would be pure speculation as which direction or in whose direction.

    Parent
    Why I hate the DNC's Mi and Fl rule (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:13:23 AM EST
    I hate zero tolerance stupidity at all levels. This was a policy with that mentality at its core. I hate when raising children, with friends, in schools, at work, in civil society everywhere. So this is when a rule is not a rule, when it's based on a stupid social notion such as "zero tolerance". Also I hate the droning repetition of "rules are rules" . When was the last time any rule in this country was so hard and fast?

    Rebuttal (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by kid oakland on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:13:38 PM EST
    I spoke with Massie Ritsch of Center for Responsive Politics today and received permission to reprint this email to me:

    Paul,


    The information from the Center for Responsive Politics that Jerome Armstrong cites comes from our Feb. 5 analysis of the candidates' year-end campaign finance reports; it's not something we posted today. He also conveniently left out this disclaimer from that same item of ours: "Now would be a good time to mention that measuring spending in a state is problematic. The biggest expenses--advertising, for one--are often spent with vendors outside the state, or even just over the state line. These figures measure only what was spent on the ground with local companies and individuals."


    To explain further, the expenditures figures Jerome cited are calculated by looking only at the addresses of the vendors that each campaign paid. They are almost certainly not accurate counts of how much was spent in a state. It's possible that Obama hired a vendor based in Florida who did work outside the state for his campaign. For example, maybe the printer of his signs is in Florida. The amount of money spent on signs would appear in the campaign finance reports to have been focused solely on Florida, when, in fact, the signs were used to campaign all over the country.


    Bottom line: I wouldn't use state spending totals gleaned from campaign finance reports to saw anything authoritative about a candidate's effort in a particular state. The FEC's requirements for reporting expenditures just don't allow for that sort of precision.


    Feel free to share what I've told you with the blogosphere. And thanks for your question.


    Massie Ritsch
    Center for Responsive Politics

    BTD, in my opinion, you and TalkLeft need to print a correction posthaste...and follow up on this with a new post. Your credibility is on the line. You are simply factually wrong. And your source feels strongly enough about it to send a for attribution rebuttal to the netroots.

    The CRP needs to be more careful (none / 0) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:20:48 PM EST
    if it is not standing behind its report.

    Did you mention that o the CRP?

    Because we QUOTE THEIR WORDS! Did they retract them?

    All I see is your claim of an e-mail response.

    Let the CRP make it public that their original report is wrong.

    Because right now, that is what you are claiming.

    Parent

    BTD (none / 0) (#90)
    by kid oakland on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 05:02:10 PM EST
    Your source not only disputes Jerome's use of that information but rebuts it explicitly.

    This was a BIG claim. That Obama had spent $1.3M campaigning in Florida. That he had broken the Pledge.

    Is TalkLeft going to print a correction and change the title of theis piece to reflect this corrected information?

    Parent

    Has he withdrawn the CRP quote? (none / 0) (#98)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:51:55 PM EST
    Are they retracting their own words?

    Can you link to something PUBLIC?

    Parent

    Reporting and facts, not rationalization (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by along on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:38:59 PM EST
    Neither you nor Jerome did the work necessary to understand or contextualize the "facts" you linked. Both kid oakland and I did.

    As you can see in kid oakland's MyDD diary and from a comment in this thread, the Center for Responsive Politics publishes a disclaimer it the item you both cited, which you neglected to report:

    "Now would be a good time to mention that measuring spending in a state is problematic. The biggest expenses--advertising, for one--are often spent with vendors outside the state, or even just over the state line. These figures measure only what was spent on the ground with local companies and individuals."

    That's not rationalization, that's just fact.

    And that's not all.

    Massie Ritsch, the Communications Director for the Center, explained the situation further, in emails to both kid oakland and myself. He gave us permission to share his email with the public (emphasis mine):

    To explain further, the expenditures figures Jerome cited are calculated by looking only at the addresses of the vendors that each campaign paid. They are almost certainly not accurate counts of how much was spent in a state. It's possible that Obama hired a vendor based in Florida who did work outside the state for his campaign. For example, maybe the printer of his signs is in Florida. The amount of money spent on signs would appear in the campaign finance reports to have been focused solely on Florida, when, in fact, the signs were used to campaign all over the country.

    Bottom line: I wouldn't use state spending totals gleaned from campaign finance reports to saw [sic] anything authoritative about a candidate's effort in a particular state. The FEC's requirements for reporting expenditures just don't allow for that sort of precision.

    There's just no way at the moment to describe these numbers as disbursements for "campaigning in Florida."

    What's more, the point of your post is questionable:

    Yes, it seems clear the Florida playing field was NOT level. Obama outspent Clinton in Florida. Let the rationalizations begin.

    How can you say the playing field was not level when you don't know how much Clinton spent?

    That Capital Eye report said the Dem "hopefuls still spent nearly $3.4 million in those states," meaning MI and FL.

    Obama spent 1.3 mil in FL, Obama and Clinton spent 260,000 total in MI, so that leaves 1.84 mil. What part of that did Clinton spend in FL? We don't know. But given the other candidates' relative lack of funds, Clinton's FL portion of that total could certainly be close to Obama's number.

    The Clinton FL numbers are not immediately available, but might be tomorrow, when the Center's office is open. They clearly did the calculation, but did not report it.

    wow, nearly simultaneous posts (none / 0) (#87)
    by along on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:41:09 PM EST
    Both you and Kid Oakland (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:50:05 PM EST
    have no new facts.

    If CRP is disavowing its report, let it say so publically.

    I QUOTE THE CRP. VERBATIM.

    If they do not like being quoted, then they should stop issuing reports.


    Parent

    the new facts are that (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by along on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:53:27 PM EST
    the figures cited are not necessarily for "campaigning in Florida." The Center told us first. I agree that they should amend or retract their report. They certainly might. Don't take it out on us that they haven't yet.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:53:26 PM EST
    Instead of yelling at ME, yell at the CRP.

    I swear to Gawd, what is with you people?

    Parent

    Censorship (none / 0) (#100)
    by kid oakland on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:27:27 PM EST
    especially of a known and respected blogger making a point, is just not acceptable.

    Where did pontificator's comments go?

    This is the second instance of censorhip I've encountered today on the blogs. First MyDD pulled my diary off the rec list. Now you delete pontificator's comments here at TalkLeft.

    That's a slippery slope for both MyDD and Talk Left to go down, imho.

    Big claims require substantive proof. We all know that. This issue centers on credibility.

    Censorship only brings that point home.

    Parent

    I didn't yell at you, (none / 0) (#101)
    by along on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:57:31 PM EST
    either literally or figuratively. I just reported some details, hoping you would assess and do an update.
    In fact, you're the one prone to writing in all caps in this thread.

    And I don't enjoy being patronized with the phrase "you people," which I've seen you write more than a few times in the past few months.
    Jeez.

    Parent

    the link to Jerome's update is cool (none / 0) (#93)
    by along on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:03:41 PM EST
    that's all I think is necessary at this point, lacking a clarification from the CRP.

    Parent
    It would be helpful (3.25 / 4) (#15)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:30:26 AM EST
    if they listed Hillary's spending in Florida as well.  It is conspicuously absent.

    I can't say I'm terribly surprised.  Obama's strategy was the early states while Hillary's was the Super Tuesday states.

    Given that, unless one or the other violated the rules, this spending occurred prior to September of 2007.  

    I really don't know what this really proves.  Do you really think this negates the argument that Obama wasn't able to campaign in Florida? Most of this money was spent during the "Barack Who?" phase of the campaign.  

    No (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:32:29 AM EST
    I believe it demonstrates that this was at the least a fair contest.

    Parent
    I guess it all depends (none / 0) (#22)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:35:13 AM EST
    on how you are defining fair.

    Let me ask you this.  If both candidates were required to cease all campaigning on Septemeber 30th for all states, do you think the race would be where it is today?  Or do you believe, as I certainly do, that Hillary would have won in a landslide?  

    Parent

    It was fairer than most caucuses (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:40:15 AM EST
    By a wide margin.

    Parent
    You didn't answer the question (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:53:33 AM EST
    You made a subjective statement in response to my question.  

    Clearly not being able to campaign in Florida had a negative impact on Obama's chance to compete in that state.  Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.  

    You may feel that seating the delegates is more important.  Maybe you're right.  But that doesn't change the almost undeniable fact that Obama was at a significant disadvantage in Florida.

    Parent

    So the national ads for Obama (none / 0) (#80)
    by hairspray on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:25:50 PM EST
    were not an advantage, when neither Hillary or John had any such advertisements themsleves?  Really?

    Parent
    I don't think... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:19:28 AM EST
    ... that that is exactly the same thing. People in Florida own TVs, and when Hillary and Obama campaigned, debated, and were voted on in other states, people in Florida were fully capable of watching. I live in New York, and other than some lawn signs and bumper stickers, I was not campaigned for any more than voters in Florida were.

    Parent
    do you think if they both fully campaigned (none / 0) (#53)
    by jdj on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:23:31 AM EST
    the vote would be the same? A simple question which any Hillary supporter should be able to answer with a yes or no.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:27:33 AM EST
    I do.

    Parent
    But I am not as Hillary supporter (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:28:20 AM EST
    As hard as it is for some of you to believe, I write what I ACTUALLY think.

    Parent
    I think Hillary still would have won... (none / 0) (#60)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:39:06 AM EST
    ... since she performed well in other large primary states with similar demographic makeups that voted around the same time. Presumably, Obama campaigning might have narrowed the margin, but it's also possible that Hillary campaigning would have increased it.

    Parent
    This is probably true (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:14:44 PM EST
    Florida would probably have gone for Clinton even if they had campaigned.  However the question is what would the margin have been?  It's a pretty big question in this election.

    Parent
    It is... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:25:58 PM EST
    ... but I think that (if the party can't agree on having another election or caucus there) that seating the delegation as is would be more representative of the will of the people than simply giving Florida no say at all, especially if that delegation would change who the nominee is.

    Parent
    My gut feeling is that (none / 0) (#82)
    by hairspray on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:30:23 PM EST
    Florida will be seated by brokering some kind of a deal on Michigan.  Does anyone know the numbers of delegates each state has?

    Parent
    Hairspray (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:17:06 PM EST
    Delegates  already   pledged:

    Michigan:    Clinton  73
                 Obama    55   (Uncommitted)

    Florida:     Clinton  111
                 Obama     69
                 Edwards   13

    Parent

    Yes, I think (none / 0) (#61)
    by Lena on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:45:05 AM EST
    the percentages would have been the same.

    The Florida voter demographic doesn't work for Barack like it works for Hillary.

    Parent

    Pretty close (none / 0) (#81)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:29:15 PM EST
    Florida leaned her way, they were both known pretty well, and honestly in most places they have fought to a draw, depending on each of their advantages. I know the "story" is that Obama is sweeping where he appears, but it hasn't panned out (yet).

    Parent
    What did Obama spend it on, and when? (none / 0) (#54)
    by tbetz on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:25:18 AM EST
    The CRP report says he spent money in Florida, but not on what.  Moneys spent in Florida could be for fundraising, or for a printer or mailing house or aircraft leasing, or any number of other vendors.

    I've written CRP asking for specifics, as I can't find a way to derive them from OpenSecrets.org daabase queries.

    Parent

    Perhaps the Obama campaign (none / 0) (#58)
    by Firefly4625 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:30:00 AM EST
    could just come out and TELL US what they spent the money on. What a concept!

    Parent
    FWIW (none / 0) (#102)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:04:48 PM EST
    In addition, an emailed response [from Center for Responsive Politics] for more information got this reply

    "To explain further, the expenditures figures Jerome cited are calculated by looking only at the addresses of the vendors that each campaign paid. They are almost certainly not accurate counts of how much was spent in a state. It's possible that Obama hired a vendor based in Florida who did work outside the state for his campaign. For example, maybe the printer of his signs is in Florida. The amount of money spent on signs would appear in the campaign finance reports to have been focused solely on Florida, when, in fact, the signs were used to campaign all over the country."

    link

    Until there's a comparison of what Clinton spent in Florida with what Obama spent, and what those expenditures were actually for (ie, whether they were actually related to campaigning in Florida), speculation on this is useless and will just reflect partisan prejudice.

    Parent

    Go to where the data came from (none / 0) (#19)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:32:34 AM EST
    and look, I put the link in my post, Center For Responsive Politics, Capital Eye. I looked and could not find, go for it.

    Parent
    I did look (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:50:15 AM EST
    I didn't see anything that really dealt with spending by state on either the CFRP or Opensecrets websites.

    The only thing I could find was The FEC filing that the author says they used to get the information.

    However there are no allocations by state in that filing.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#35)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:54:30 AM EST
    Write to them and ask. I don't care what she did, this dispels the notion that he did nothing in Florida. If you care what Hillary did go ahead. Remember the Kennedy endorsement, it was Monday before the Florida vote. Add that to the he did not campaign in Florida. Accidental timing? I don't think so.

    Parent
    FEC links (none / 0) (#65)
    by standingup on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:50:44 AM EST
    The FEC has the information but you have to sift through all of the disbursements instead of checking state allocations.  

    Link to the main page for all Obama FEC filings.

    Download 2007 year end filings in ASCII 28 delimited or Comma Separated Variable (CSV)files that can be viewed in Excel.  

    Or view the 2007 year end data on disbursements from the FEC site here.

    Parent

    The ratrionalization has begun (none / 0) (#79)
    by hairspray on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:22:23 PM EST
    You see the money was spent when nobody knew Barack.  Hows that working for ya?

    Parent
    This goes unreported (none / 0) (#1)
    by kenosharick on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:08:37 AM EST
    by the MSM and every other leftward leaning blog. Once again, it is hands off for Barack. There is a different standard for him- no criticism allowed until he secures the nomination; then watch the MSM go nuts!!!

    He is a Media and blog darling (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:13:32 AM EST
    But I think he is likely to remain so.

    It is why I support him for the nomination.

    Parent

    Are (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by tek on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:52:48 AM EST
    you still going to support when he gets in office and totally betrays the progressive netroots? People should base their vote on what the candidate will do on the issues that are important to their values, not on what the media will do. That gives all the power in this country to the REPUBLICAN, need I repeat, REPUBLICAN media.
    Barack Obama is a private sector conservative, he will not implement a progressive agenda. Then, I guess the liberal blogs will have to go ahead and support his conservative agenda, since he'll still be the "media darling."

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:59:10 AM EST
    I will do as I do now, criticize him when merited.

    Parent
    seriously? (none / 0) (#52)
    by mindfulmission on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:21:44 AM EST
    Barack Obama is a private sector conservative
    Do you seriously believe this?

    And do you really see a significant difference between Obama and Clinton on this "private sector conservatism" that Obama embraces?

    Don't get me wrong - both candidates strongly embrace free market capitalism.  And if that is what you mean by "private sector conservatism" then they both deserve that title.

    Parent

    Right (none / 0) (#66)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:54:42 AM EST
    So sayeth the person that said that Barack Obama is Clarence Thomas conservative.

    Parent
    Was it after the pledge? (none / 0) (#2)
    by AF on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:10:35 AM EST
    Can't tell by clicking through the links.

    It was after the pledge, (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by felizarte on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:16:06 AM EST
    right around the So. Carolina primary. It was part of his cable advertising.  I believe this was extensively discussed here at TL some weeks ago.  The Obama camp rationalize it by saying that it could not helped;  it was part of a national advertising campaign--not specifically to Florida.

    I recall posting something to the effect that cable advertising can be narrowly focused, and so I thought the reason given was really bogus.

    Parent

    Forget the pledge (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:12:51 AM EST
    Did Obama "participate" or not?

    Parent
    He definitely participated/campaigned (none / 0) (#8)
    by felizarte on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:18:40 AM EST
    by advertising in Florida.  Although they also accused the Hillary camp of participating since she went there for fundraising.

    Parent
    Fundraising IS participating (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:22:15 AM EST
    but it was "permitted participation."

    I am less interested in the pledge argument than I am in the whether the contest was fair part.

    Parent

    Of course he participated (none / 0) (#12)
    by AF on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:24:44 AM EST
    until he pledged not to.  Is that all there is here?

    Parent
    I doubt it (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:26:06 AM EST
    But even what we know does undercut the unfairness of the contest argument forwarded by Obama supporters.

    Parent
    It does undercut (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by felizarte on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:31:23 AM EST
    but I doubt the media will focus on that part.  He may be a media darling now, but we don't know if the MSM which is owned by corporate interests is making him the darling now because they want him to go against McCain who is another media darling so that he will lose.  After all the corporate oligarchy is mostly republican-leaning.  But we shall see.  I am supporting Hillary all the way, precisely because the media has mistreated her and I think she is the better candidate; tough, intelligent, and a DOER.

    Parent
    That's interesting (none / 0) (#3)
    by Korha on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:11:19 AM EST
    I wonder how much of the $1.3 million was on advertising/campaigning?

    I seem to remember that Obama ran a couple ads in Florida on CNN and MSNBC, but that doesn't up to $1.3 million.

    From the linked article:

    Now would be a good time to mention that measuring spending in a state is problematic. The biggest expenses--advertising, for one--are often spent with vendors outside the state, or even just over the state line. These figures measure only what was spent on the ground with local companies and individuals.


    Let the rationalizations begin (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:12:19 AM EST
    At least you are always fair & balanced (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:37:41 AM EST
    Which ever candidate you like, you are always ready to concede that no candidate is perfect. In this capacity you are able to see both sides and be willing to point out the flaws of the argument.

    Parent
    It's a question (none / 0) (#10)
    by Korha on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:21:38 AM EST
    But I see how you are trying to float above leigitimate criticism of the MYDD story, even though it's not at all clear how much of that $1.3 million spent in Florida went into in-state campaigning. It could be a lot or a little. He could have outspent Clinton or Clinton could have outspent him. We don't know based on the article you linked.

    If you want to talk about "rationalizations," it's pretty indisputable that neither Obama or Clinton campaigned in Florida or Michigan. Therefore, they did not participate.

    Parent

    Was the contest fair? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:25:05 AM EST
    As to who spent more, the source says Obama. You can disbelieve it of course.

    MY question goes to the "fairness" issue.

    I believe the Florida contest was fairer and much more representative than virtually every caucus in this process.

    I believe those vote matter.

    I have proposed a compromise solution.

    I do not expect rational debate on this subject. I expecdt this comment thread will devolve quickly.

    I expect to close it very soon. I wanted this information to be available to some of those interested in it.


    Parent

    I agree with you, at least this comment (none / 0) (#16)
    by Korha on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:30:29 AM EST
    But of course your original post is titled

    When Is Participating "Not Participating?"

    Neither candidate participated in the Florida primary. I think that's CLEARLY the most rational and most correct argument.

    The reality is that we have no idea what would have happened if Obama and Clinton had both campaigned in Florida. It could have been a bigger blowout than it was or a lot closer than it was. It's pure speculation.

    Parent

    Of all the words of tongue or pen (none / 0) (#59)
    by badger on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:35:03 AM EST
    the saddest are these - "it could have been".

    OK, so it's not an exact quote, but, for example, would you argue that the Alaska or Hawaii votes would be invalid because neither candidate campaigned there? After all, if Obama went to Anchorage, he might get a lot more votes there too. Most candidates don't choose to do that.

    FL has an internet connection, newspapers, national radio and TV links, people talk. So people are informed. Campaigns, on the other hand, simply market and persuade and rarely inform. I don't see how the inability to chant "Yes, We Can" in a huge crowd deprives Obama of anything except a marketing opportunity that he chose, voluntarily, to forgo (except for spending $1.3 million - maybe it was all for parking spaces).


    Parent

    Be that as it may (none / 0) (#20)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:33:12 AM EST
    Perhaps Florida was more fair than caucuses.  Not sure how that could be qualitatively proven either way but let's assume that is correct.

    How does it change the fact that the state knowingly and willfully violated the rules?  

    FTR, I don't have a problem with seating Florida with half the delegates although I think that 1/3 would be a proper punishment.

    Parent

    Banging head on wall!!! (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:35:15 AM EST
    The State may have (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:41:55 AM EST
    been willing to do that, but Rules 20 c 1 and 21 offer different penalties and even an absolute defense to the penalties imposed by the DNC.

    The DNC broke the rules definitely. Florida may have.

    Florida Dem voters did not.

    Parent

    There is absolutely no question (none / 0) (#40)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:00:41 AM EST
    that Florida broke the rules.  How can you possibly argue that they "may" have violated the rules?

    As for the DNC breaking the rules, even if we assume that is true, the time to argue that was last year before the primaries started.  IIRC, both Florida and Michigan sued the DNC and, in both cases, the DNC's rulings were upheld.

    We live in a Republic.  We elect people to act on our behalf.  If they act against my interests I don't get to say that those actions don't count.  I have a single recourse.  Not voting for them in the next election.  And if I lived in Florida or Michigan I would most certainly make my displeasure known to the state legislators that screwed me.

    Parent

    By citing Rule 21 to you (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:03:42 AM EST
    I have read the rule (none / 0) (#49)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:16:24 AM EST
    and I don't see how it, in any way, exonerates Florida and Michigan.  They broke the rules.  It doesn't matter if other states broke the rules.  They broke the rules.  And when you break the rules you risk punishment.

    Parent
    Then you are not much of a reader (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:29:19 AM EST
    Rule 21 could DEFINITELY exonerate Florida.

    It is ridiculous to argue otherwise.


    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#62)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:46:23 AM EST
    Here is Rule 21...

    A.Subject to Rule 18.C. of these Rules, wherever any part of any section contained in these rules
    conflicts with existing state laws, the state party shall take provable positive steps to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the provisions of these rules.

    B. Provable positive steps shall be taken in a timely fashion and shall include: the drafting of
    corrective legislation; public endorsement by the state party of such legislation; efforts to educate the public on the need for such legislation; active support for the legislation by the state party lobbying state legislators, other public officials, Party officials and Party members; and encouraging consideration of the legislation by the appropriate legislative committees and bodies.
    C. A state party may be required by a vote of the DNC Executive Committee upon a recommendation of the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee to adopt and implement an alternative Party-run delegate selection system which does not conflict with these rules, regardless of any provable positive steps the state may have taken

    Under which provision could it be argued that Florida did not violate the rules?  The Florida Democratic Party publicly ENDORSED the legislation.  They made no attempt to change or correct the legislation.  So Rules A and B are not met in any way.  

    Rule C allows for a caucus, which Florida has no interest in doing.  

    Changing the date of the primary was a team effort of both parties and passed with ease, having been endorsed by both state and federal officials of both parties.

    Parent

    You ignore the fact that the legislation (none / 0) (#68)
    by rebecca on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:06:39 PM EST
    which they "endorsed" includes paper trails for the ballots.  Were the Democrats supposed to vote against paper trails in FL of all places when our party has been making such a huge issue out of it?  The Republicans played politics here and put a poison pill into the legislation that made it impossible for the Democrats to vote against it.  The Democrats did try to make the date Feb 5th but the Republicans insisted and they control the legislature in FL or are amendments not "the drafting of corrective legislation"?

    All of this is part of rule 21 which you ignored the ability to have a hearing and put forward their case.  Perhaps the reason the DNC didn't have hearings about this is that it would have shown conclusively that FL was exonerated and shouldn't be penalized.  We'll never know since they didn't follow the rules and have the hearings.  

    Another point to hold caucus' where only a tiny percentage of the population can show up after 1.6 million voters turned up just looks bad.  It looks exactly like our party is trying to take their votes away.  If by chance that caucus turned out to be an Obama win and he were to get most of the delegates you'd have a real problem with Floridians and many others thinking your guy and the Democratic party stole the election for Obama.  Not good.  We definitely don't want to go there.  

    Parent

    Do you have any evidence (none / 0) (#69)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:12:42 PM EST
    to support any of this?  Do you have a link to any Democratic official protesting the move prior to the vote or suggesting solutions after the vote?  Rule 21 is pretty clear.  PROVABLE actions.  What were the PROVABLE actions?  

    I posted a quote from the head of the Florida Democratic Party last week in which he said he was in favor of the move.  

    There were several lawsuits against the DNC from Florida. But you think they weren't allowed to be heard?  I don't see any provision in Rule 21 which states that a formal hearing must occur.  I quoted the entirety of Rule 21 so please show what I am ignoring.  

    I am not advocating for caucuses.  I am pointing out that Rule 21 provides for caucuses as remedy. That is the only remedy offered.

    Parent

    What the FL Democratic party did according to them (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by rebecca on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:21:24 PM EST
    The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?
    Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year.  That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

    Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th.  Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties.  In response to the Party's efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

    The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority's throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.

    As for the hearings I know I read it in one of the rules that they were supposed to have hearings but I don't remember where I'll see if I can find it.

    Parent

    Some of this (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by standingup on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:29:27 PM EST
    was addressed in a post from dhonig on Dkos last week.    

    Parent
    Thank you (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by rebecca on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:35:51 PM EST
    That is one place at least that I read about hearings.  

    In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced.

    Clearly Florida falls under this.  Where was the investigation and hearings they were supposed to hold into this?  If they held them it would clearly have shown that this political move was a play by Republicans to hurt our party.  Amazing how well our DNC fell into their trap.  Lovely work from the DNC on this one.  

    Parent

    No hearing (none / 0) (#95)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:25:17 PM EST
    No, it  didn't  happen, and it  should have.

    Incidentally,  Donna  Brazille  (let's  guess  who she's  supporting)   PUSHED  for   both  Florida  and Michigan  to lose  all their  delegates.  

    Insider  trading?

    Parent

    It doesn't matter if the caucus is their only (none / 0) (#74)
    by rebecca on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:30:47 PM EST
    option.  It's a stupid political move to make at this point.  That would only add to the stupidity of taking away all the delegates from a state like FL with their history of vote problems.  What's so sad is how Obama partisans keep on saying the rules are the rules while ignoring how the rules were broken by allowing IA, NH and SC to bump ahead also while suffering no penalty while FL which following the rules written should have been given leniency because of the Republican shenanigans which forced the primary date forward but ended up with the political equivalence of the death penalty.  

    Bad politics the whole way around.  We need FL in the GE.  Winning the candidacy by means that cause him to lose the GE won't help our party.  The GE is more important then just getting Obama elected.  If he can't figure a way out that respects Florida's votes then we may just lose this election.  He didn't start this but he may end up getting the blame for it because of this line of talk that Florida's votes don't count. Just remember the voters did nothing wrong here.  They won't care how much you talk about rules all they will see is a Democratic candidate telling them their votes don't count.  

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by standingup on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:08:16 PM EST
    This appears, at least to me, to be a problem that the DNC created with not applying the rules equally and fairly to all states.  Now we have two campaigns in a political dead heat fighting for what will benefit their own political ambitions yet they are hardly free of bias.  

    I am disappointed the DNC has not done more to accept their role in contributing to this instead of  allowing it to do more damage to the party as it is spun by the campaigns and the press.  The biggest losers are the voters and none of the parties involved seem to be concerned with them.  

    Parent

    You doubt it? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:17:37 PM EST
    Then disprove it. I know it is true. You believe what you want to believe anyway. It is not like you are going to change your mind as I did when I found this out.

    Parent
    The Queen of Hearts (none / 0) (#50)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:18:42 AM EST
    "Off with their heads" that is what I think whenever I read this point of view.

    Parent
    You can infer anything you like (none / 0) (#64)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:48:29 AM EST
    But the truth is that actions have consequences.  Both Florida and Michigan played chicken with the DNC and lost.  They aren't the first states to try and they aren't the first states to be punished.

    They had plenty of time to correct the problem yet chose not to.  Why they should be rewarded for violating the rules, I have no idea.

    Parent

    Consequences... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:46:52 PM EST
    Yep, but are the consequences ever justly doled out in an unjust society?

    Parent
    Actions have consequences (none / 0) (#96)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:27:43 PM EST
    Indeed.  

    And  if  the  Democratic Party loses  the  GE   because  you and yours  supported  disenfranchising  those  voters,  I  DO  hope  you'll  come  back to the  board  and  apologize.

    Parent

    What about Obama's TV adds? (none / 0) (#83)
    by hairspray on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:44:15 PM EST
    I wish the linked article gave specifics. (none / 0) (#38)
    by tbetz on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:58:44 AM EST
    I'll have to see what I can find at the CSR.

    Parent
    Follow the Rules (none / 0) (#21)
    by 1jane on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:34:44 AM EST
    Florida and Michigan do not count. Rules is rules.
    The Democratic Party will implode if the rules are changed. If the rules are overturned we hand the election to the R's. The race is in WI, Texas, Ohio. Florida is so over.

    The rules were meaningless (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:38:44 AM EST
    Cause your great Dem leaders designed rules based on the assumption that it would not be needed and that with a nod and a wink, Florida and Michigan would get to be seated.  Don't you get it, the rules sucked.  Hillary, being a smart policy person, planned for the worst case.  

    Stop with the robotic rules are rules.  It does not mean anything anymore.  Dean, Brazille et. al, could not plan a 3 year olds party and make it fair.  

    Parent

    The DNC CHANGED the rules (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:39:21 AM EST
    when it stripped Florida of its delegates.

    but you do not want to hear about that.

    Bleat the "rules are rules" line till the sheep come home.

    But do not expect anyone to buy it here.

    You are at the wrong web site for this type of comment.

    Parent

    You're forgetting about the GE (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:39:44 AM EST
    and the VOTERS of Florida who could be very pissed off by "the rules is rules".

    And I've said before, we should be especially careful to think about the MOTIVATED voters, the ones who went out and voted WHEN THEY KNEW that their votes wouldn't count. Those MOTIVATED voters are the ones they can't piss off.

    You can't forget Florida and expect to win the General.

    Parent

    If Florida is not seated (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by felizarte on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:05:13 AM EST
    I'm quite sure the republicans are going to tell the voters that the democrats do not think of them much to count their votes.  So whether it is Obama or Clinton, the democrats are going to lose there.  And the "rules are rules" thing will be difficult to sell to the Floridians.  This time, the democrats will be the ones guilty of "not counting every vote," and worse, they deliberately 'REFUSED to count the votes.

    Parent
    1jane (none / 0) (#97)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:29:22 PM EST
    So....when Obama  himself  told  the voters  of  Florida  he would   support  their  reinstatement  at  the  convention  (before  the election...after he  lost,  he  flip flopped)....are  you  saying   Obama  was  breaking  the  rules?

    Parent
    when is a rule not a rule? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:03:59 AM EST
    I guess rules are rules, except when they're not, and depending on who's breaking them.

    I think it's a shame that at a time when we were outraged at the attempts by the DOJ and US Attorneys and legislatures to systematically suppress the vote and disenfranchise voters, the DNC made the decision to effectively deny the voters of Michigan and Florida a voice in the process.  I get that they felt they needed to impose something draconian enough to prevent other states from butting to the head of the line - but it brings into question - again - why it is that Iowa, NH, South Carolina and Nevada had to have a stranglehold on the calendar.  Thanks to that February 5 line-in-the-sand, we had the most compressed primary calendar ever, and I do not think it has served the process well.

    And why is it that there's a penalty for scheduling a primary in violation of DNC rules, but there seems to be no penalty for those candidates who violated the rules they agreed to?


    There actually is a rule (none / 0) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:09:16 AM EST