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In a Vote By Numbers World, Who Rules?

Paul Lukasiak, guest-blogging at Taylor Marsh's blog, crunches the numbers of votes cast so far in the Democratic presidential race. Why? Barack Obama is arguing that super-delegates should comply with the "will of the people."

Mr. Lukasiak's premise:

Based on exit polls, among the approximately 16.3 million people who identified themselves as Democrats, over 678,000 more voted for Hillary Clinton than Barack Obama. If we’re going to “let the people decide" who the Democratic nominee would be, shouldn’t we be basing that on the will of Democrats themselves?

Here's the table of votes. His analysis is below, but go read his whole post, I've just reprinted highlights:

As of February 16, 2008, 391,992 more Democrats voted for Clinton than Obama. (my emphasis.)

That number does not include results from the District of Columbia, because of a lack of exit polling data. If we include DC, and assume that 100% of the voters were Democrats, Clinton still has a lead among Democrats of 333,981 votes.

But that number also doesn’t include Florida. Add in Florida’s Democrats, and Clinton’s lead advantage increases to 565,684. Nor does it include Michigan; and even if we assign all the Democrats who voted “uncommitted” to Obama, Clinton’s lead among Democratic voters grows to 678,276.

As to Super Tuesday,

In fact, on Super Tuesday, 295,952 more primary voters cast their ballots for Hillary Clinton than for Obama, yet somehow neither the Obama campaign, nor the media, was paying much attention to Clinton’s lead in the popular vote. If we include all the states that held primaries before Super Tuesday (NH, SC, MI, FL) Clinton was up by 468,024 votes—that was 2.51% of the total votes cast. But talking about that number was not a media priority either.

Only now that Obama has a miniscule lead of 128,736 in the number of votes cast (and that includes assigning all the “uncommitted” votes in Michigan to Obama) has the media focused on total votes cast. This lead represents less than 1% (0.62%) of votes cast in the primary elections held so far, yet it is trumpeted by the media endlessly.

Update: Paul Lukasiak responds to several of you in the comments:

First of all, I tried to be as fair as possible to Obama in putting together the data.

When I include Michigan results in the totals, ALL uncommitted voters were treated as if they were Obama voters. (In the notes to the table I also mention that there was an exit poll question regarding who people would have voted for if all the candidates had been on the ballot -- and that it came out 46% Clinton, 35% Obama -- and noted that those numbers could have slightly improved Obama's bottom line, but because there were no cross tabs to party identification for those numbers, they were unusable for this project.

In the case of Washington DC, for which there was no exit polling data, I assumed that 100% of the voters would have answered "Democratic" to a "party identification" question, even though the highest percentage (from closed primaries -- like DC's -- in NY and NM) in that categories was 87%.

The purpose of the piece was not to demand that only "Democratic" voters be considered by super-delegates, but to use the analysis of Democratic voters to raise the issue of how Obama is now trying to "play the refs" after doing a very good job of exploiting the rules to his advantage. Obama is now trying to redefine the role of the superdelegates to be rubber-stamps based on the criteria that are most advantageous to him. But the fact is that those are not the only criteria, and IMHO, not even the proper criteria.

To me, the decisions of the superdelegates in a race where there is no clear winner should be to pretty much forget the results of the primaries, and consider what is best for the nation -- which means determining which democrat is most assured of winning in November, and if that determination is close, which candidate would make the best President. The fact that I think Hillary is the right choice is far less important to me than the idea that the super-delegates do the job they should be doing in a close race.

(Indeed, one critical factor that the super-delegates need to consider is who McCain will choose for VP. In my opinion, if he doesn't choose Huckabee, Obama may be the better candidate because I think he can make a number of otherwise "deep red" states at least competitive because Christian Conservative are going to be very unhappy, and Obama's message of hope and inspiration will appeal to "the better angels of their natures". )

and later in the thread,

...but Obama has been making three separate arguments (actually four, if you include the fact that his co-chair, Jesse Jackson Jr., is going to black superdelegates and asking them if they want to be the ONE person who keeps a black American from having the chance to be president) -- that total votes, total states, and pledged delegates are all important criteria.

The key difference between pledged delegates and popular support (votes) is because there is no consistency between states in determining "popular support". As I point out in piece, In Idaho (a caucus state) Obama got 79% of the delegates to county conventions, and is estimated to have a +12 advantage over Clinton in delegates to the Democratic convention. In New Jersey, where over 1,100,000 people voted in the Democratic primary, and where Clinton drew 110,000 more votes than Obama (56% to 42%), she will be awarded only 11 more delegates than Obama.

Setting aside the fact that hell will freeze over before a Democrat wins in Idaho this year, the very idea that 79% of people who would have voted in a primary in Idaho would have supported Obama is completely absurd. (Even in DC, Obama only got 75%).

Another point of comparison...in 2004, only 181,000 Idahoans voted for Kerry. In other words, Clinton's advantage over Obama in New Jersey was about 60% of the total democratic vote in the 2004 general election. But if you add Clintons and Obama's NJ and ID delegates together, Obama comes out ahead by 1.

Update: Comments over 200, thread is closing. Thanks for your thoughts.)

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  • Display: Sort:
    for SDs, I agree this should be considered. But the OVERALL PV is more important, given the rules in place.

    As a future reform, closed PRIMARIES are essential.

    Agreed (5.00 / 7) (#20)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:31:16 PM EST
    It really makes me angry that Republicans and Independents can register as Dems for the day in some states to vote in a Dem. primary and affect the Democratic nomination.

    If they're not willing to commit to a party, they should vote in the general election, period.

    [ Parent ]

    they vote (none / 0) (#23)
    by jdj on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:33:03 PM EST
    in the general too. Whoever the nom is better appeal to some of those indies. I know McCain does.

    [ Parent ]
    The essentially (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:37:39 PM EST
    you disenfranchise people who aren't willing to commit to a party.  if you have a two party system, you have to have open primaries.  

    [ Parent ]
    Why? (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:39:42 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Guess it sounded good :-) (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:04:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    because (none / 0) (#69)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:08:26 PM EST
    in a two party system you only have two candidates.  If you don't have the right to pick who the nominees are, then you have been disenfranchised.  This is especially true if you live somewhere dominated by one party.

    [ Parent ]
    If you don't join a party (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:10:47 PM EST
    you disenfranchise yourself. Oh well.

    [ Parent ]
    bwahahaha (none / 0) (#79)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:11:38 PM EST
    people getting disenfranchised is so funny, let me slap my knee and laugh

    [ Parent ]
    What part of (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:13:20 PM EST
    "they disenfranchise themselves" don't you understand?

    [ Parent ]
    so if you dont pick a party (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:14:41 PM EST
    your vote doesn't matter

    [ Parent ]
    It would in the general election (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:16:09 PM EST
    but in any case, it would be your choice not to join a party.

    [ Parent ]
    Independents (none / 0) (#197)
    by mouth of the south on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:46:40 PM EST
    Approximately 1/3 of the people in this country are independent.  You don't think they have a right to vote in a primary unless they are a Democrat or a Republican?  Come on!  Neither party can win a general election without independent voters.  They certainly have a right to help choose the candidates who will be running in the GE.

    [ Parent ]
    why? (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:48:23 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Bwahahahaaha! (none / 0) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:09:54 PM EST
    My gawd, you will say anything.

    [ Parent ]
    really (none / 0) (#78)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:10:56 PM EST
    so then i guess we should legalize white all white primaries, because as long as you can vote in the general.

    [ Parent ]
    Bwahaha! (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:13:02 PM EST
    You get funnier by the comment.

    [ Parent ]
    really (none / 0) (#87)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:15:41 PM EST
    what other restrictions should be on primary voters?  up the voting age, that would help Hillary too

    [ Parent ]
    As long as they are of voting age (18) (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:28:11 PM EST
    and registered as a party member they should participate.

    [ Parent ]
    I am a supporter of (none / 0) (#105)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:25:27 PM EST
    a common sense test.

    [ Parent ]
    Here, or to vote in a primary? (none / 0) (#113)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:31:23 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Both (none / 0) (#122)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:34:14 PM EST
    But especially here.

    [ Parent ]
    Well i have been (none / 0) (#124)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:36:53 PM EST
    clear that i support same day registration, so IMO that requires same day party registration.  I'm for less hurdles to voting.

    [ Parent ]
    No you don't (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:49:29 PM EST
    Open primaries allow manipulation of who our party candidate will be. We did it in Michigan for Romney. Was it right? No. Was it done? Yes. Why did we do it? To try and keep Romney in the running so McCain would not win. I am in Penna and it is closed. But April is a ways off yet.

    We do not disenfranchise the independents. They get to vote for the final candidates and since they will not commit to a party, they get to make their choice then. If I lived in a state where my candidate was a safe bet, what is keeping me from choosing a candidate from the other party that I feel would be the easiest to bump off by my candidate? Nothing. Open primaries are very dangerous for both parties.

    [ Parent ]

    Has it occured to you (none / 0) (#39)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:46:18 PM EST
    that state parties choose the rules for primaries and caucuses with an eye on their local self interest?

    Growing the party has to start somewhere.

    Here in CA, where DTS (Decline to State) voters had to ask for a Democratic ballot at their precinct...that meant something.

    Personally, in my multiple contacts with DTS voters I found many young people of all backgrounds who

    a) were already quite interested in voting Democratic
    b) were grateful for my help and knowledge re: how to do so
    c) were, in my estimation, very much open to joining our party...but simply did not want to state a preference at the time they registered

    I think your post makes a very misleading point about the nomination process and is actually conveying exactly the WRONG message our party should be sending. States should be free to run their primaries to grow our party locally, period. The candidates should campaign with that reality in mind.

    The nomination of the Democratic party is determined by the votes of delegates at the convention. I am very confident that the Pledged Delegates and Super Delegates will act in a manner consonant with our core values: the nomination will go to the winner of the Pledged Delegate contest by the pre agreed to rules.

    [ Parent ]

    What pre-agreed rules for SD's? (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Teresa on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:48:51 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    there are plenty (none / 0) (#50)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:55:11 PM EST
    a) they are unpledged
    b) they cast their vote sitting with the state delegations
    c) it is a public vote
    d) their vote comes AFTER the primary season is over not before...ie. an SD vote is only final and fixed when cast as part of the first ballot in Denver
    e) SD's have an equal vote to other Delegates (except Dems abroad who have .5 votes)...but represent the minority of total delegate votes

    These rules shape the SD voter. The most powerful is that it is a public vote that comes after the Delegates chosen by the voters have been "Pledged" ie. the VAST MAJORITY of the deleates. It is a vote made sitting within a state delegation.

    You could easily see SDs voting in secret...or before the primaries, or in another room.

    Doesn't happen that way. It is a public vote for which they are directly, immediately accountable.

    I am confident they will respect the democratic process and the pre agreed to rules.

    [ Parent ]

    The "rules" you cite (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:57:30 PM EST
    have absolutely nothing to say about how the Super Delegates should direct their votes. Of course, you obviously already knew that.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes it does have something specific to say. (none / 0) (#106)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:25:46 PM EST
    they are unpledged.

    They are free to vote as they choose. It is an unrepresentative, unbound vote.

    There are, however, rules for HOW they cast that vote.

    It's not secret, it's done on the floor of the convention seated with their state.

    I'm not saying anything new or shocking here. But it's important for people who don't know to have that information.

    SDs know that their vote will be public...that is why they are under pressure now to indicate what they intend to do. It will not be secret.

    [ Parent ]

    I think it's just puffery (none / 0) (#110)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:29:56 PM EST
    to support your opinion that SD should vote with the majority of pledged delegates, but whatever.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:33:33 PM EST
    No kidding?

    [ Parent ]
    Is someone arguing that it should be (none / 0) (#112)
    by Teresa on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:30:18 PM EST
    secret?

    [ Parent ]
    OK. It sounds like you were saying there (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Teresa on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:58:56 PM EST
    is a rule that the SD's must vote for the delegate leader.

    [ Parent ]
    No (none / 0) (#94)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:17:30 PM EST
    not in the least.

    They are unpledged delegates and free to vote how they wish.

    I am saying that it's not secret, it's in a specific context.

    If your state goes overwhelmingly for Clinton and you cast your SD vote for Obama...it will be publicly clear you did so.

    If it were secret you would not see all these SDs scrambling to say which way they are leaning ahead of time. They know that everyone will know their vote anyway. They know it's a public vote.

    [ Parent ]

    The Super Ds who are telegraphing (none / 0) (#121)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:33:44 PM EST
    their votes are either trying to influence other Super Ds and/or upcoming contests and/or CYAing to try to guess the winner and thus insure they didn't mess up.

    [ Parent ]
    Please cite me those pre arranged rules. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:50:28 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    We're talking something that is really complex (none / 0) (#85)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:14:52 PM EST
    but here goes.

    The states agree to conduct primaries, caucuses and/or conventions to select delegates to the convention in Denver by pre-agreed to guidelines set down and agreed to with the DNC.

    The guidelines establish certain rules. For instance, delegates are awarded proportionally to candidates achieving over 15% support in a Congressional District, with another pool of delegates chosen "at large" from the state.

    States are free to hold caucuses or primaries. Some of these are open, some are semi-open, and some are closed. There is flexibility here. These plans are agreed to and run by the DNC...as we saw with the "at-large" caucus sites held in Las Vegas and won by Senator Clinton despite the lawsuit Bill supported to shut those caucus sites down.

    However, there were certain rules that were inflexible. One of which pertained to the caucuses or primaries held before the date of Feb. 5th. The goal of keeping large states behind the Feb. 5th deadline was laid out in the Pledge the candidates signed...it was an effort to create retail politics in four smaller states with diverse geography, make up and constituencies. This would allow all the candidates, whatever their name recognition to compete on a more level playing field.  States that violated this deadline...were susceptible to losing their initial Pledged Delegates since the candidates agreed not to campaign in those states. This is what happened with FL/MI for a variety of complex reasons. The rules, however, provide a clear path for those delegations to be seated. Either they can hold a caucus or primary within the rules or go through the credentials and/or rules committees. Either way, there's a process that everyone knows about.

    Now, the pre agreed to rules mean, most importantly, that, as complex as the apportionment of delegates in each of the separate territories and states (and these rules are REALLY complex), ALL the candidates knew ALL the rules well ahead of time.

    Those rules, that playing field will not and has not changed.

    This is a contest for pledged delegates by those rules, largely on a CD by CD basis per the primary and caucus preferences of the various states.

    That represents values held by our party. It also represents the one, clear, pre agreed to contest that would serve as the main way we select Delegates to our convention.

    (Super Delegates are also a part of the proces, and have their own rules which I've elaborated above.)

    As complex as all this is. It was all known ahead of time. By everyone.

    To win, you had to compete within those rules and allocate your resources accordingly.

    Respect for that process is tantamount to respecting the franchise of all those who donated, volunteered and most importantly, participated, according to those rules.

    It is not a case, with MI/FL, that they are the ONLY voters we have to concern ourselves with. If we retroactively reward MI and FL in a way that violates the rules, we disenfranchise the voters in states that followed the rules. Super Delegates and the DNC get this. There is a path to remedy it. A known path.

    As Democrats we have to respect the process that brought ALL of our participants to the table and which will in all likelihood, resolve itself in the seating of delegations from MI and FL fully empowered to participate in Denver on an equal footing.

    But yes this is a contest for pledged delegates by pre agreed to rules.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (none / 0) (#101)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:22:25 PM EST
    There was a great deal of "elaboration" on those super delegate rules. One might say confabulation of them actually.

    [ Parent ]
    Isn't Michigan going to be able to seat some (none / 0) (#146)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:04:36 PM EST
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:00:41 PM EST
    Actually, relying on the "expertise" of local Democratic Parties for choosing our nominee is what we are complaining about.

    the idea that choosing our nominee can become a local Party building exercise is PRECISELY what we are objecting to.

    But more than that, you act as if open primaries are a new development. That they are leading to great party building. the opposite is true. The Democratic Party has WITHERED in an open primary and caucus setting. It has been a disaster for local Democratic Parties.

    But what makes this hilarious is your newfound love of open primaries. What a coincidence that it coincides wit the development of your Obama love.

    I have ALWAYS argued against open primaries. A lot of other people have too. Some of them have forgotten their opposition to open primaries, conveniently as they became Obama supporters.

    I do not remember where you were on the issue, but I DO remember you NOT arguing FOR open primaries UNTIL NOW.

    [ Parent ]

    do you have evidence (none / 0) (#93)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:17:23 PM EST
    that any one used to not support open prairies, or caucuses?

    Or does it just generally fit in with your habit of insulting Obama supporters?

    [ Parent ]

    Do I have evidence? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:19:27 PM EST
    I have KNOWLEDGE! they were in the trenches with me at daily kos, FIGHTING AGAINST Open Primaries!

    Look, the blogs did not start yesterday jgarza.

    Believe it or not, I was around for a lot of stuff before this election.

    [ Parent ]

    if only (none / 0) (#104)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:24:48 PM EST
    all the other bloggers from "the beginning," stayed as pure as you.

    [ Parent ]
    I would settle for honest (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:26:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You have no evidence (none / 0) (#130)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:42:18 PM EST
    of my position one way or another because I did not have a public stance and am not taking one now.

    I am simply saying that states have the right to conduct their primaries and caucuses as they see fit to grow the party locally.

    I've been on the ground here in California doing GOTV consistently. I am not just a blogger, I am also someone who has made thousands of "voter contacts" and worked with folks from the DNC to the CDP to Labor etc. etc. on these very issues.

    We are moving DTS voters to the CDP here in CA. However, in 2008 we were quite happy to use any leverage we could get to bring people in. Having voters who vote our way registered is preferable to NOT having them registered. Each step we take, we bring more people into the process, and yes, we get them registered as Democrats the best we know how.

    Frankly, BTD, there are grounds where I'm not so sure that your argument holds. Minnesota and Wisconsin have open primaries and have grown their local parties nicely over the last decade...winning critical suburban independents into the fold and improving their local party strength.

    The debate over HOW we do the nomination process, however, is separate from the reality that there ARE very clear rules about how we are conducting THIS process in this midst of THIS primary season.

    In an environment where one campaign has aggressively grabbed at any rationale to overturn those rules including the delegitamizing of caucuses AS THEY WERE OCCURING, I am loathe to indulge you in a debate that has already been distorted to other partisan ends.

    [ Parent ]

    I see now (none / 0) (#134)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:48:05 PM EST
    You rally are NOT arguing for Open primaries then? You could have fooled me.

    At least you are not arguing that my position results from my support of Hillary, as you have done in the past, despite my lack of support for Hillary.

    You are really remarkable. you get to do all the things you ACCUSE me of but remain a saint in your own mind.

    Just to refresh your memory, your first response was to Jeralyn saying she supported CLOSED primaries. Your bitter and hostile comment would lead most folks to assume you SUPPORTED Open primaries.

    Lo and behold that was NOT your point at all.

    What was your point? well, the same thing that is always your point - everyone should support Obama, every delegate should vote for Obama, the rules require that we all vote for Obama.

    you knwo why I am all over you when you come here? Because it insults me that you beleive you could run the same BS sophistry that they eat up at Daily Kos here and expect us to take it seriously.

    This is not a web site for fools Kid O. Run your schtick where the pixie dust works, not here.

    [ Parent ]

    Once again (none / 0) (#152)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:11:37 PM EST
    you break the comment rules of your own site.

    The reason I post here is because I think the readers at TalkLeft deserve to hear a considered alternative point of view that does NOT engage in bullying or name calling or smears to make its point.

    I consistently read arguments here, like the one in this thread advocating for closed primaries...which also form part of a rationale for one candidate to win outside the pre agreed to rules: in this case, I guess, by tallying up only the votes of "real Democrats" in this election.

    Reading this, I find myself truly boggled.

    1. That kind of tally is clearly against the rules and the laws established by the DNC. It won't happen.

    2. It represents truly poor leadership of one's party in the midst of nomination process.

    3. I don't think it is particularly effective or persuasive advocacy for any candidate.

    Ie. even if the ultimate goal is to sway Super Delegates, most of whom are either electeds or DNC members, it flies in the face of realities that I KNOW they see every day regarding our party. They WILL NOT go along with this for very plain reasons, it would be gross mismanagement.

    Stewardship of our party may well mean that we push to make primary reform part of our future guidelines (which may or may not be a good idea in every state) BUT it would be reckless for a political party to violate its own rules in the midst of a nomination process to favor one candidate over another.

    It won't happen. It would be utterly horrible stewardship of the party if Howard Dean came out and said...only closed primaries count...or..only non caucus states count...or...only the votes of "real" Democrats count...towards the nomination.

    Further, it is, in my view, not being an expert, but, like I said, being someone who busts his ass talking to voters and working with plenty of other folks who do so much more than I, just frankly grossly misleading to undermine an entire process that was agreed to well ahead of time in this manner. It is NOT effective advocacy for any candidate.

    Whatever you or I think of how primaries should be run...there were rules spelling out exactly how they would be run in 2008. Respect for the law, our candidates and the party dictates that we at least acknowledge that and the people who have invested so much in the integrity of that process.

    Like I said, I think the general line of argument on Talk Left has tended to throw wrenches instead of shining a light of late.

    I do what I can to contribute as a fair dealer.

    [ Parent ]

    Jesus (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:21:56 PM EST
    Ie. even if the ultimate goal is to sway Super Delegates, most of whom are either electeds or DNC members, it flies in the face of realities that I KNOW they see every day regarding our party. They WILL NOT go along with this for very plain reasons, it would be gross mismanagement.

    Stewardship of our party may well mean that we push to make primary reform part of our future guidelines (which may or may not be a good idea in every state) BUT it would be reckless for a political party to violate its own rules in the midst of a nomination process to favor one candidate over another.

    This is sophistry of the highest order. You keep talking about "rules," but can never seem to produce any relevant ones.

    [ Parent ]
    Heck they already broke their own rules (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:34:20 PM EST
    when the stripped Mi and Fl of 100% of the delegates.  And again when they selectively did not punish IA NH and SC when they also pushed their contests forward.

    [ Parent ]
    they didn't (none / 0) (#169)
    by jdj on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:41:03 PM EST
    break any rules with that ruling.

    [ Parent ]
    Go read those rules (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:56:34 PM EST
    they say 50%

    [ Parent ]
    Go read those rules (none / 0) (#180)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:56:52 PM EST
    they say 50%

    [ Parent ]
    Also count the number of days the (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:58:18 PM EST
    IA caucus and NH and SC primaries preceded Feb 5 and see if they did not also violate the Rules.

    [ Parent ]
    The rules say (none / 0) (#162)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:33:55 PM EST
    we award pledged delegates to states that conduct primaries or caucuses, open, semi-open an closed.

    The resulting Pledged Delegates have an equal vote at the convention, whether their state conducted a caucus or a primary, open, semi-open or closed, by the rules.

    The diarist is advocating a calculation that would run against those rules. Since we all know that won't happen, it's really more an argument meant to sway super delegates and rile up the supporters of one candidate over another.

    Ie. it delegitimizes a candidate for the Democratic nomination who won states with open caucuses and primaries by attacking the "Non-Democratic" voters who participated in those primaries.

    That's sophistry. That's changing the rules midstream.

    It's also just really bad politics. It will not win over people who aren't already on your side.

    I am saying, straight up, that many of the arguments made on this website have NEGATIVE consequences for Senator Clinton's campaign for the nomination and serve only to divide our party.

    If I supported Senator Clinton I would be talking about Health Care and showing YouTube clips of her speech in Wisconsin last night and encouraging people to GOTV by calling voters in Wisconsin. (an OPEN primary state with same day registration btw) I'd also be working the phones to Hawai'i where she has a very good chance in a caucus state.

    But hey, that's me. I really can't be more clear. Take it how you wish.

    [ Parent ]

    Ahem (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:39:33 PM EST
    The diarist is advocating a calculation that would run against those rules.
    that's just a lie.

    [ Parent ]
    You are misreading the post then (none / 0) (#174)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:51:51 PM EST
    no need to talk about lies.

    From the diary:

    Based on exit polls, among the approximately 16.3 million people who identified themselves as Democrats, over 678,000 more voted for Hillary Clinton than Barack Obama. If we're going to "let the people decide" who the Democratic nominee would be, shouldn't we be basing that on the will of Democrats themselves?

    The DNC rules say that we award delegates based on the participants in the states by the established rules. The diarist is advocating that Super Delegates follow Paul Lukasiak and award their SD vote based ONLY on the votes of self-identified Democrats per exit polls.

    #1. This kind of post-hoc gamesmanship does not win over voters in primary states yet to vote.

    #2. It's not an effective argument to make with Super Delegates all of whom realize that we can't win the presidency w/o the votes of folks who don't identify as Democrats.

    #3. It's just really bad form to consistently make arguments like this when the truth is, if Senator Clinton is to win the nomination, she will likely have to do so only through winning the Pledged Delegate count...and she yet COULD do so...if she focused on positive arguments that bolstered her strengths: Health Care, support from working class voters, support from women and Seniors and perhaps, coming clean with the voting public about her stance on the war in way that turned her foreign policy experience and world travels into a strength.

    Instead the diarist is confirming a well-established media narrative that is Clinton's greatest weakness: that she is behind and that she will say or do anything to win, even disrepecting whole groups of voters and states.

    [ Parent ]

    here's your problem (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:55:33 PM EST
    However much you would like it to be this:

    if Senator Clinton is to win the nomination, she will likely have to do so only through winning the Pledged Delegate count.

    Is not a "rule."

    [ Parent ]

    Of course not (none / 0) (#183)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:08:14 PM EST
    Super Delegates don't have "rules"

    but your problem, and I have to be clear here and try to respond to folks above and below this a bit since this thread will shut down...is simple.

    Barack Obama's arguments are consistent and have the advantage of helping him win votes in upcoming primaries.

    Your arguments, against Caucuses, against Open primaries, against small states, against red states, against "non-Democratic Voters", for changing the rules...or even merely creating the perception of advocating for changing the rules...all have the effect of dissuading voters from going your way.

    Ie. from winning primaries and caucuses.

    Clinton needs wins, big wins, soon, or she will lose, no matter what you think of my arguments.

    I'm not a highly paid consultant, but I'm not an idiot. Senator Clinton has been very poorly served by the public advocacy on her behalf.

    Most of what I tell people to do on Dailykos is GET INVOLVED. There's a reason for that. It works.

    [ Parent ]

    There's no (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:14:23 PM EST
    "of course not"  when you deliberately implied the opposite. As to the rest of what you write, I could be supporting the little green man from mars for President and your argument about what the "rules" are would still be meaningless.

    [ Parent ]
    Ahem (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:16:26 PM EST
    "Barack Obama's arguments are consistent and have the advantage of helping him win votes in upcoming primaries."  sounds like wishful thinking to me.  But maybe they will not that I think his arguments have been consistent but you have a right to your opinion.

    [ Parent ]
    Consistent? (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by Practically Lactating on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:17:13 PM EST
    Obama:

    Obama said superdelegates "would have to think long and hard about how they approach the nomination when the people they claim to represent have said, 'Obama's our guy.' "

    Axelrod:

    I think that the role of the superdelegate is to act as, sort of, a party elder. These are elected officials from across the country and they're supposed to exercise their judgment as to what would be best for the party. And as they look at this, they need to decide who would be the strongest candidate for the party...I think they and all the superdelegates should vote according to what they think is best for the party and the country. And I think that we need the strongest possible candidate against John McCain...

    So we have Obama talking about superdelegates voting with their district, Axelrod arguing they should serve as a "party elder", and you are arguing that superdelegates should go with the total pledged delegate count?  

    This is hardly consistent.

    [ Parent ]

    Strawman argument (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Practically Lactating on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:55:29 PM EST
    I can't find a suggestion that the rules be changed. This is your own elaborately-crafted strawman. The superdelegates are free to vote how they wish, and that's how things can and should remain.

    The problem is that the Obama people are making up the rules as we go along. One, they are saying superdelegates should vote the will of the people, and secondly, that the will of the people is best determined by looking at the pledged delegate count.

    The author, as I see it, contends that there is more than one metric for determining the will of the people and offers his data analysis as one option.  

    Another option would be popular vote.  There are multiple metrics the superdelegates could use if they so choose, but the Obama campaign contends that pledged delegates are the best metric. However, the fact remains that pledged delegate counts are one of the most flawed metrics for determining the will of the people.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly (none / 0) (#178)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:56:31 PM EST
    k/o knows this, and is just producing noise.

    [ Parent ]
    Couple of points: (none / 0) (#193)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:31:44 PM EST
    1. It is my understanding this is Jeralyn's blog and that she makes the rules;
    2. I don't think you come to TL to make sure the commenters here are exposed to fair, unbiased arguments;
    3. I haven't read anything in Jeralyn's post that says the rules should be changed this primary season; yes, there has been lots of discussion in the comments about whether closed or open primaries are preferable, but, who is suggesting here that delegates selected for the 08 Dem. convention should be disregarded if the primary in which they were selected was open as oposed to closed?


    [ Parent ]
    On the ground in Wisconsin, (none / 0) (#192)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:24:37 PM EST
    I can tell you that it is not an example you want to use for your argument.  Dem support has been slipping for years -- you do know that it was the closest state in the 2004 election?  And in terms of state elections, the current Dem gov followed decades of GOP govs.  Bush was the gift that got us back one house of the legislature, but that only has meant stalemates disastrous for the state, with the latest budget of any state this year.  Etc., etc.

    But no one ever will get Wisconsin to give up open primaries, I fear.

    [ Parent ]

    Rose colored glasses (none / 0) (#58)
    by Coldblue on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:59:23 PM EST
    to think that there has not been a false support in this process.

    But I guess we all wear our own shades of glasses, don't we?

    [ Parent ]

    Kid O (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:01:13 PM EST
    is well, you knwo what he is on this. Obama Obama Obama !!!

    [ Parent ]
    And you're a supremely objective analyst, right? (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Korha on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:15:55 PM EST
    I think it's pretty lame that you continually attack Kid Oakland as if everything he says is attributable to his support for Obama. Last I checked the guy makes articulate and reasoned points which are worth taking seriously.

    Certainly more articulate and reasoned than "Kid O is well, you knwo what he is on this. Obama Obama Obama !!!" -- Is that supposed to be a rebuttal?

    [ Parent ]

    This certainly is (none / 0) (#98)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:21:13 PM EST
    And I know it. How do I know it? Because the issue of Open Primaries has been discussed at the web site Kisd O and I FPed at at the same time. That would be Daily Kos.

    Markos and I had a virtual crusade against Open Primaries. My recollection is that Kid O AGREED with us. But I am SURE he was NOT a proponent of Open Primaries.

    What say you now?

    [ Parent ]

    Your relentless (none / 0) (#99)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:21:29 PM EST
    violation of the rules of your own website does none of us any favors.

    If you have something substantive to say, say it. I've conveyed information as clearly and fully as I know how. That information would be true whomever I supported in this process.

    Personal attacks are just that.

    [ Parent ]

    I've said it (none / 0) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:24:39 PM EST
    Your love of Open Primaries is quite convenient and recent.

    you KNOW my opposition, Daily Kos' opposition, heck the Netroots opposition, to Open Primaries was of longstanding.

    I believe you agreed with us then.

    Now I see you no longer do. Now is it coincidental to your support for Obama? It is suspicious at the least.

    [ Parent ]

    Never done this before (none / 0) (#142)
    by blogtopus on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:59:20 PM EST
    But, Links to KO's opinion against open primaries?

    [ Parent ]
    Why did they not want to state a preference? (none / 0) (#145)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:03:59 PM EST
    They had to state one eventually and if they had a change in ideals then they had plenty of time to change their affiliation.  Registering to vote is very easy and considering that the GOP and the DEMs are so greatly different in their positions, I find it hard to believe that someone does not want to state a preference. You are saying that we have Democrats shaking behind closed doors who will not come out until it is the day to vote. I am not buying the Indy notion. I believe it is manipulation and surely everyone knows which side they lean if even so slightly.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm saying, for example, that I talked (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:18:02 PM EST
    to numerous young African American voters in my home town of Oakland who are VERY inclined to vote for Democratic candidates but who are disaffected with the Democratic party for legitimate reasons.

    They refuse to register Democratic in part because of how Democrats have conducted themselves right here in Oakland.

    Now, as the face of the Democratic party in that situation (a white face, btw) my job was to listen, to respect, to empower, to include.

    In this case, as an advocate of the Obama campaign.

    It is possible that in conducting myself in this manner I won some new registrations to our side. Perhaps not.

    But the point is. If we had a closed primary in CA I would never have met these folks. They simply would not have been on the radar.

    [ Parent ]

    Would they have voted at all? (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 09:14:24 PM EST
    I am familiar with Oakland and understand what you are saying. But how many of those voters would have voted at all if not for the current candidates? I have been against the open primaries way before this election cycle. I keep hounding that word manipulation because that is what I believe open primaries allow.  They skew what Democrats want and vice versa. I have heard people in the legal system and other professionals state that they think like Democrats but register Republican for the sake of their social and professional circle. Well, that takes guts. Not. At least they get to vote for a Democrat in the final election but that might be what they are saying for our Democratic circle as they have lost credibility in my opinion. They are probably true blue GOP at heart. I am the only Democrat in my office and take the ribbing for it as there are some pretty serious money giving Republicans there. It would be easy for me to be an Indy but I stand up for my choice. The only good news is that they hate Bush. I appreciate your comment, but I have to continue to believe that open primaries are not good for either parties.

    [ Parent ]
    Strongly disagree (none / 0) (#59)
    by dmk47 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:00:39 PM EST
    Closed primaries would shut out first-time voters. When you turn 18, you have no particular reason to register until the first election comes around.


    [ Parent ]
    It must be generational (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Coldblue on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:06:02 PM EST
    I knew what party to register with when I was 18.

    [ Parent ]
    How would it shut out first tiem voters? (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:08:57 PM EST
    That seems false to me.

    [ Parent ]
    In fact, fully open primaries remove any (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:13:38 PM EST
    incentive to actually join and support the party.  Why do that when you can vote anyway.  

    Example, I was a Democrat but became Independent in '00 and have no reason whatsoever to return to the party.  I can vote whenever I want and they don't bug me for contributions, etc.

    Make me register as a party member in order to vote in primaries and I might revert back to my old behavior and support the local party again.


    [ Parent ]

    And thats a bad thing ? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Joliphant on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:16:52 PM EST
    Washington was very much against the formation of organized political parties and history seems to bear him out.

    [ Parent ]
    Party registration (none / 0) (#111)
    by dmk47 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:30:03 PM EST
    takes nothing, and doesn't represent a significant commitment of anything or to anything. If your conception of the party is of an exclusive club requiring various active forms of participation, the barriers to participating in selecting a nominee ought to be a light higher than just signing a piece of paper with no further consequence. In that case, caucuses forever!

    If your conception of the party lines up with what the party actually is, restricting primary votes to registered Democrats just needlessly restricts Democratic-leaning voters from participating and developing an investment in the party.

    [ Parent ]

    No, open primaries keep them from (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Teresa on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:32:18 PM EST
    an investment in the party, not the other way around.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks. That was my point (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:41:44 PM EST
    but can't cut through the fog.  Independents have no investment in a party by definition.  Emotional involvement sure, but if that's the case they shouldn't mind joining up.

    Then they would be available for party building that goes on between elections.  That is after all what makes the party the party.


    [ Parent ]

    Absurd (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:15:29 PM EST
    I registered with a party at 18. The local political system is 80% Democratic, and I knew that if I didn't register with a party, my vote would almost never matter in a local election. Closed primaries encourage that kind of situation, and that's what we should be aiming for.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes only Dem's votes shoud count (none / 0) (#161)
    by PennProgressive on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:33:03 PM EST
    if we were to look at the vote count.I also think all primaries should be closed. If one feels strongly about picking a party's candidate, he or she must register for that party (and not just for voting at the primary). To come up with a bad analogy (I am also trying to watch NBA all star game)will you let an opposing team's coach to decide who should play for your team?

    [ Parent ]
    It's not much of a consideration (none / 0) (#51)
    by AF on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:55:35 PM EST
    If Obama wins pledged delegates and the popular vote including FL and MI, super-delegates who vote for Hillary are better off just saying they voted their conscience.  The argument that Hillary actually won because the exit polls say she won Democrats isn't going to convince anyone.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't care why SD will make their decisions (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:05:14 PM EST
    the point is that My wife and many other Democrats feel that the DNC and many state Democratic Committees have allowed non democrats to decide caucuses and primaries.  If you want to attract Independents new voters and crossovers run a good platform in the GE and make your Senators and Representative listen to the people.  But internal primaries should be for those who openly and through their registration identify for the party that is holding them.  Heck I'm voting for the Democratic nominee in 2008 and voted for Kerry in 2004 and I am a registered Republican.  So I don't need to vote in your primaries to realize who is a bad candidate and who isn't I also do not need to vote in your internal primaries to see if your platform is better than my party's platform.
    I voted for Corrine Brown in 2004 and 2006 will vote for her in 2008 but the day she is not the candidate I will have to decide who would best represent my district.

    [ Parent ]
    There's a big difference (none / 0) (#70)
    by AF on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:08:45 PM EST
    between holding closed primaries and holding open primaries but then disregarding independent votes based on exit polls!  That is what is being proposed here.

    [ Parent ]
    You could apply the same reasoning to caucuses (none / 0) (#80)
    by Korha on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:12:55 PM EST
    They over represent high-information dedicated party activists. Shouldn't they have a bigger say in deciding who the nominee is than people who show up on election day swayed by the last television ad they say?

    My rule of thumb is that the more voters, the better. No caucuses, open primaries.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly right (none / 0) (#95)
    by dmk47 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:17:39 PM EST
    Once you start deciding that one has to evince some level of commitment to the Democratic party to participate in choosing its nominee, the logic leads to caucuses pretty quickly. After all, registering for a party doesn't exactly require a significant commitment or expenditure of resources.

    How about, "if you're not a registered Dem and willing to spend 2 hours in a high school gym on a Saturday, you shouldn't have a say."

    Maybe some independents and Republicans vote in an open Democratic primary to screw with the party. I would guess that 99% and change are participating in Democratic primaries because they're interested in Democratic candidates. That should be encouraged, not discouraged.

    [ Parent ]

    What? (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Teresa on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:27:10 PM EST
    if you're not a registered Dem and willing to spend 2 hours in a high school gym on a Saturday, you shouldn't have a say

    How ridiculous can you get? Not that I think you really mean that. I have relatives that are die hard Democrats and because of physical limitations, they could never stand around for two hours in a gym, but they always vote in the primary.

    [ Parent ]

    For the record, (none / 0) (#118)
    by dmk47 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:33:06 PM EST
    Until Mark Penn's asterisks came out, the universal assumption was that caucuses favored senior citizens. But no, I don't favor caucuses. I favor fully open primaries. Party registration is not a major commitment to the party. If you want to start creating barriers to primary voting based on participation/activism, they ought to be a lot more stringent than signing a piece of paper once, then never thinking about it again.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm sure my great-aunt in a nursing home (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Teresa on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:36:32 PM EST
    agrees that a caucus would favor her.

    [ Parent ]
    Maine's (none / 0) (#126)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:37:58 PM EST
    Caucuses had absentee voting

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#125)
    by Korha on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:37:30 PM EST
    Caucuses are bad. The point is that they are bad for many (obviously not all) of the same reasons that closed primaries are. Insofar as the democratic nominee needs to appeal to the overall democratic base to win the general election, caucuses distort that picture. Insofar as the democratic nominee needs to appeal to independents to win the general election, closed primaries distort that picture.

    P.S. Would Bill Clinton have won the nomination in 1992 in a straight closed primary system? Actually I don't know, but it would be worth looking into.

    [ Parent ]

    Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Shawn on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 08:53:30 PM EST
    If anything, he would've won the nomination more easily in a closed-primary system. His support was mostly from core Democrats - working-class whites, African-Americans, Hispanics, the elderly. Paul Tsongas, and to a lesser extent, Jerry Brown drew more of their votes from outside the party.

    Quote from '92 article on Paul Tsongas' withdrawl:

    Mr. Tsongas was virtually unknown when he became the first Democrat to enter the race soon after the end of the Gulf War. He won the crucial New Hampshire primary, largely because Mr. Clinton faltered on character issues there.

    Then Mr. Tsongas, preaching pro-business economics and "honesty," rode the momentum and press attention to victories in Maryland, Massachusetts and Rhode Island by appealing to well-educated, upscale liberals and independents.

    [ Parent ]

    It is interesting (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by jdj on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:39:33 PM EST
    how many people here seem to say that Obama winning the pledged delegates is not enough. there alwasys seems to be a new hoop for him to leap through each day.

    Should Obama supporters now assume winning the pledged delegate count and pop vote are not enough now to expect superdelegate to sway his way? Clinton supporter get a say on which votes and states matter and which don't, after the fact?

    That's about the size of it (none / 0) (#42)
    by dmk47 on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 06:50:10 PM EST
    At least there's honest debate here. Taylor Marsh is to Hillary Clinton as Hugh Hewitt is to Mitt Romney.

    If Hillary Clinton were ahead in the popular vote but behind among registered Democrats, any chance we'd be hearing this argument?

    As for the suggestion of only closed primaries in the future --- that's not something the party controls. Primary rules are determined by state legislatures. Some states (e.g. Louisiana) have longstanding traditions of open elections. That won't change.

    The party could decide that caucuses will henceforth be closed to non-Democrats, but as we know, caucuses don't count.