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Monday Evening Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 06:45:52 PM EST
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I'm headed out for dinner with the TL kid for his birthday. Here's an open thread for topics we haven't discussed today.

< Cooperators in Blagojevich Probe | Some Advice for Gov. Blagojevich >

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    Monday Evening Open Thread | 55 comments (55 topical)

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    A day without a gay (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 06:58:19 PM EST
    is scheduled for tomorrow.  I thought about calling in tomorrow to show solidarity for the Prop 8 fighters, but right now is probably not the best time to NOT go to work.

    I do like the idea that the originators of this idea wanted GLBT folk to volunteer instead of not working, just for the day.  Tomorrow is also Human Rights Day I think.  So all this ties in:   Close your wallets and open your hearts.  Volunteer for some worthwhile cause.   I read online that those of Capitol Hill (gayborhood of Denver?) will be going to some African American community center, numbering around 25, to pledge their energies.

    I like a placard I saw in the news that said "WHEN DO WE GET TO VOTE ON YOUR MARRIAGE?"

    Heck yeah!

    I have an exam to take tomorrow (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 07:00:34 PM EST
    so there will be no day without me!

    Parent
    Not buying that women are their own worst enemies (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 10:15:13 PM EST
    Just wanted to tuck in a response to a comment from today's sexism thread, which isn't active right now. The original comment reiterated the tired old refrain:"some women are their own worst enemies". Do tell.

    For starters, how convenient, to shift some of the overall burden of women's oppression back onto women themselves; and to suggest that the "worst" abuse of women comes from other women. I can't imagine what folks mean when they say this. Are they talking about women who don't support other women; or women who 'back-stab'; or gossip and actively undermine other women.

    Those things can happen; but I can think of far "worst" things being done to women by "enemies" who are far more formidable.

    When I think of the "worst" abuse against women, I think of things like domestic violence; sexual harassment; assault and battery; rape; and murder. These things are NOT things that women do to themselves.  

    So, how is it that women can still be called "their own worst enemies"? And why aren't other oppressed people commonly characterized in those terms? I have never heard anybody suggest that: "some African Americans are their own worst enemies"; "some Jews are their own worst enemies"; "some physically challenged people are their own worst enemies".

    If all of these things can't be said about all of these other classes of oppressed people, please STOP saying them about women.

    I'm just saying...

    Parent

    actually, (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by cpinva on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 03:55:57 AM EST
    every single one of those comments has been made, at one time or another:

    "some African Americans are their own worst enemies"; "some Jews are their own worst enemies"; "some physically challenged people are their own worst enemies".

    made, of course, by people who already enjoy those goodies that the oppressed group is demanding for themselves. usually said as a way of "explaining" why the discrimination is not only legitimate, but a logical response. and if "those people" would just shut up, everything would be just fine. except, of course, for "those people".

    this is a classic ploy of those in power, to assert the "reasonableness" of discriminating against those not in power.

    Parent

    I can't say I've ever heard anyone use (none / 0) (#24)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 05:06:36 AM EST
    that particular line about any group other than women.

    Of course, prejudiced people may routinely perceive that Jews, African Americans, and numerous other minorities are their own worst enemies; and those views are no doubt expressed among people who share that opinion.

    However, it is not at all common for people, especially privileged self-described progressive people, to enter a public forum and openly say: "Jews, African Americans, Hispanics, et al are their own worst enemies".

    That expression is only bandied about, freely and repeatedly, when people are talking about women. "Women are their own worst enemies", who hasn't heard that a thousand times? I'm just saying, it's demoralizing and insulting for women to be singled out in this way and I would like it to stop.

    Parent

    For example, many in media said it (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Cream City on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 08:52:58 AM EST
    about women in this campaign.  I heard it, I read it from them.

    But I don't recall any such comments about others, such as African Americans -- and there were apt moments to do so, as when Jesse Jackson, Sr. blasted Obama.

    Parent

    CC, if I understand your comment correctly (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 03:28:31 PM EST
    you are saying that there were opportunities for the commentariat to call some people around the Obama campaign "their own worst enemies". However, the commentariat 'wisely' refrained from using that disparaging expression in those instances.

    How unfortunate, that they didn't 'wisely' refrain from using every woman-hating term in the book to describe Hillary and her supporters.

    This double standard is conveniently 'invisible' to many of those who wish to perpetuate it.

    Parent

    FOS (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 03:45:00 PM EST
    Commentariat??

    Google is your friend

    Parent

    And the dictionary is your friend... (none / 0) (#47)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 05:44:33 PM EST
    Commentariat: members of the news media considered as a class.

    Your kindly Google link took me to racist comments made by anonymous commenters on a website. They do not constitute the "commentariat".

    Parent

    Consider Yourself Educated (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 05:55:24 PM EST
    I can't say I've ever heard anyone use that particular line about any group other than women.

    emphasis mine.

    And your attempt to move the goalposts (Commentariat) was duly noted, even if it went over your head.  

    Parent

    Squeaky, you are wasting my time (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 08:30:31 PM EST
    It appears that you deliberately misconstrue and decontextualize comments for the express purpose of baiting people with endless rounds of nit-picking, convoluted arguments.

    With respect to my foregoing comments, I said that women are the only group of oppressed people that   I   have ever heard described as "their own worst enemies".

    For some reason, that motivated you to do a Google search and provide links to some ridiculous website with anonymous comments that call African Americans "their own worst enemies". So all right, now I've heard it from those dubious sources.

    But, I am glad that we don't routinely hear those types of comments, about African Americans, from our WASPy self-described progressives, and the professional commentariat. Now if they could all stop calling women "their own worst enemies"; that would be progress.

    Squeaky, I haven't "moved the goalposts", you're just choosing not to follow the ball. This is my final word on this, or any other matter, with you. FULL STOP.

    Parent

    Hey (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 08:38:45 PM EST
    First off you are wasting your own time. Don't pin that on me.

    And you made a statement, which I thought at best naive, at worst dishonest. I provided you plenty of quotes, plus a methodology with which you can continue your education.

    Next step, since you obviously need help, is to do a google search with Jews, Muslims, Gays, and any other group that you have never heard is their own worst enemy.

    Parent

    Condescending, me thinks. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:20:29 AM EST


    Parent
    At Best (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:01:20 AM EST


    Parent
    Ha. (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:41:32 AM EST


    Parent
    Huh? "Wisely" is your word (none / 0) (#54)
    by Cream City on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 06:50:12 PM EST
    not mine.  I don't see it in my comment.

    Parent
    CC, for your eyes only... (none / 0) (#57)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:54:36 AM EST
    I don't know which "wisely" you're referencing in comment #54. This may, or may not clarify anything, but I used the word 'wisely' in comment #43.

    I said: "the commentariat 'wisely' refrained" from making a particular derogatory remark in relation to the Obama campaign. I used a type of bastardized 'scare quote' to suggest that the media was being crassly calculating when they chose not to say something that would have generated a s**t-storm from team Obama.

    Ahh, all of that was probably already apparent to you :-)

    Parent

    Guess You Just Said It (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    Is it OK to think that about JJjr but most here would not say it.

    I guarantee you that the percentage of commenters who thought that JJjr was his own worst enemy was 100 times greater that any commenter who thought Hillary, or any woman,  was her own worst enemy.

    Of course no one here uttered it here, save for you (regarding jjjr).  

    Parent

    I wrote about what media said (none / 0) (#55)
    by Cream City on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 06:50:49 PM EST
    not what people think.  What you think, your prob.

    Parent
    Apt Moments? (none / 0) (#56)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 07:09:43 PM EST
    But I don't recall any such comments about others, such as African Americans -- and there were apt moments to do so, as when Jesse Jackson, Sr. blasted Obama. [emphasis mine]

    That is your opinion, iow what you think.

    Parent

    African Americans.... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by laila on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 11:44:22 AM EST
    Can be their own worst enemies, and that is coming from an African American.  I find it very patronizing when "others" feel the need to criticize, but there are some things that are undeniable.  Have you not heard the term "CRABS IN A BUCKET" this term was used to describe the mindset of seeing someone reach for the top and pull each other down.  But then again it also assumes that there must be solidarity amongst African Americans, where as that is not expected of Whites.  
    Same thing happens to women all the time.  I have heard time and time again women criticize other women in positions of authority, because said women in a position of authority feels the need to be "harder on the women".  So somehow women believe there has be solidarity amongst each other, which I think is ridiculous.    

    Either way those who don't fall in line tend to be called sell-outs at least if your African American, and if your a women there are plenty of terms as well.  For example, I looked at the Favreau photo and laughed, and was shocked to see so many say that was sexist. Oh well, I guess I have problems...

    Parent

    How many of the same folks (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 01:16:27 PM EST
    thought it was sexist or oppresive for welfare reform to force some women to leave their children in some shoddy, sub-standard day care while being forced (by the or-else of homelessness) to work all day a minimum wage job that leaves nothing left over for clothing, car repair, laundrey etc?

    Alot of straining at gnats and swallowing camels around this place.

    Parent

    I for one had HUGE problems with Reagan (none / 0) (#41)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 02:55:56 PM EST
    calling African American women, "welfare queens". I also had a HUGE problems with the rampant cuts in spending on all forms of social services during the Reagan/Bush era; which disproportionately hurt the poor in general, and women and minorities in particular.

    I had HUGE problems with the ensuing epidemic of homelessness. I had HUGE problems with the Reagan era 'war on drugs' which disproportionately targeted minorities. I had HUGE problems with Reagan era inaction on AIDS which disproportionately affected racial minorities and gays.

    Do you recall a particularly hideous Reagan era policy involving ketchup? I do, and I had HUGE problems with that as well.

    If you saw equally numerous and gruesome policies toward minorities, women, and the poor during the Clinton era, please feel free to rant.
     

    Parent

    Lalia, were there any incidents during the (none / 0) (#40)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 02:37:16 PM EST
    campaign, in the media or elsewhere, that you thought were racist toward Obama or African Americans in general?

    As an African American, how would you feel about the press corps, in print, on TV, and on the internet, actually coming out and repeatedly using "crabs in a bucket" (your expression) to describe the African American community? I don't imagine either Jesse Jackson, Junior or Senior, would have been too pleased.

    But, if that's OK with you, I can't quarrel with how you deal with your experience.

    However, it is NOT OK with me to hear my community (women) routinely described as "their own worst enemies", in the media or any public forum.

    If the pundit class, and blog commentators, can refrain from calling African American "crabs in a bucket", surely they can refrain from using similarly derogatory expressions to describe women.  

    Parent

    To be clear, it would not be OK with me (none / 0) (#42)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 03:12:50 PM EST
    for any marginalized demographic to be described in stereotypical, disparaging terms.

    Lalia, if a pundit called African Americans "crabs in a bucket", I'd shoot the TV. (Speaking for me only.)

    Parent

    No... (none / 0) (#26)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 08:42:39 AM EST
    ...Capital Hill is not the "gayborhood" of Denver.  It is a wonderfully diverse inner-city neighborhood with mixture of gays, straights, young, old, whites, minorities, rich and poor and everything in between.  

    /lives in CapHill
    //not gay

    Parent

    That's just silly. (none / 0) (#37)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 12:49:31 PM EST
    There are "concentrated gay population" in many of our neighborhoods--the Highlands, Baker and Stapleton to name a few.  To assume that all of Denver's gays are concentrated in one neighborhood is just wrong.  

    I wasn't implying anything, BTW--the word "gayborhood" suggests neighborhoods made up of exclusively/majority of gays.  As such, a "gayborhood" would be the Castro, not Capital Hill.      

    Parent

    Totally frivolous comment (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 07:02:22 PM EST
    Jay Leno getting a 10pm show on NBC every day of the week?  Did Dick Wolf run out of Law and Order ideas?

    How long do we think that will last? I can promise I will not watch one single installment. Leno irritates the heck out of me.

    Likewise (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 07:03:55 PM EST
    And as to Dick Wolf. . .I don't think there's a time of day when some version of L&O isn't on.

    Parent
    Somehow I always catch the same episodes (none / 0) (#14)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 09:01:23 PM EST
    of the CI version. I swear I have only seen about 5 episodes of that one.  the ones where Vincent D'Onofrio goes ballistic.

    Parent
    CI has grown on me (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 09:12:16 PM EST
    but I have a soft spot for the original, and I miss Jerry Orbach.

    Parent
    Me too (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 09:21:52 PM EST
    Still like those the best.


    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by cal1942 on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 09:46:11 PM EST
    after Jerry Orbach what was the point of watching. A few episodes after he left my wife and I just didn't tune in.  No statement or anything it just wasn't the same.

    Parent
    Thank you for reminding me (none / 0) (#11)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 08:41:14 PM EST
    of the far reaching implications of this!  What's going to happen to L&O?  

    Even though it stinks now...most of my law knowledge comes from that show and Kafka.  Who will be my guiding light through the law posts here at TL?

    Parent

    Leno's new show will be called (none / 0) (#19)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 10:10:46 PM EST
    Law and Order:  Irritating Comedian

    Parent
    the only problem i see with this: (none / 0) (#23)
    by cpinva on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 03:59:32 AM EST
    Law and Order:  Irritating Comedian

    the rest of the cast would band together and kill him, in the first, and last, episode. granted, it would get rave reviews, but what would you do with the rest of the week?

    Parent

    Last nite was the last (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Amiss on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 07:08:47 PM EST
    show for Boston Legal. It really saddened me, it has been consistently one of my favorites and will be missed.

    I really liked that show, especially (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by hairspray on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 07:39:49 PM EST
    in the beginning.  It was on Sunday night right after Desperate Housewives which was the lead in for the show.  Then they moved Boston Legal to thursday night, which I didn't pick up for a year because except for DH (I know, I know, its soap) I don't watch much TV.  When I finally saw it they changed it again to Tuesday which I never watch. Too bad, the show was originally quite good.  At the end they didn't seem to have many social issues as I recall.

    Parent
    James Spader is so perfectly pervy... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 10:20:53 PM EST
    If you haven't seen the film White Palace with Spader and Susan Sarandon; put on your galoshes and go get it now.

    Parent
    That was the last one?! (none / 0) (#7)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 07:18:19 PM EST
    {pout} I knew they were ending, but I was kinda hoping for a looooong drawn out ending :(

    Parent
    I read in the NYT several months ago (none / 0) (#25)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 07:12:59 AM EST
    that the writers were planning for Bravo or A&E to perhaps pick up the series (at least at that time). For that reason, the writers were not going to close out all story lines completely. Haven't heard any thing further on that angle.

    Parent
    Time for my favorite seasonal video (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 07:17:02 PM EST
    Bailey the unknown reindeer

    and more fun with a Bailey twin

    Life with spotty and spotty mixed dogs is never boring, lol!~

    That was great (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 07:27:04 PM EST
    Dogs and snow - nonstop entertainment.  My golden favored the run, dive, and roll technique. Always made me laugh.

    Parent
    Sacrifice (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 08:40:26 PM EST
    He can still give speeches around the world and pull down six-figure speaking and consulting fees.

    He can still ask for multi-million dollar checks to fund the Clinton Foundation's work.

    His foundation can host big events overseas and accept major contributions from foreign governments to fund its international disease-fighting, development and environmental initiatives.

    For more of what he can't do: CBS

    Clinton Foundation notified my mother (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by befuddledvoter on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 08:46:50 PM EST
    that her donation now would be publicized as per Pres.-Elect Obama's order.  90-year old mother thinks our new President just wants to raid Bill Clinton's donor list for his own solicitations. She says it has nothing to do with Hillary and Sec. of State.  LOL

    god (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 08:58:35 PM EST
    $700 million is not enough? I hope he is not going to pick on Clinton's donors now.

    Parent
    Me think your mother be right! (none / 0) (#16)
    by Angel on Tue Dec 09, 2008 at 09:20:53 PM EST


    Parent
    Be afraid, (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 09:32:40 AM EST
    Power and Control had a post up showing an interview with the Chiago Fox Network (not FNC) and Axlerod in which Axlerod clearly states that Obama had been in contact with Blago re Obama's replacement in the Senate.

    There was also a YouTube video.

    As you know, yesterday Obama said he had no contact.

    The Obama transition team now says Axlerod "misspoke."

    OK. Perhaps he did.

    But it raises a question.

    But why are the videos no longer available?

    The Obama team protests too much.

    Be afraid my liberal friends. Be very afraid. A government that has that type of cooperation from the press can do whatever it pleases.

    I just knew (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Steve M on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 09:51:14 AM EST
    that you guys would rediscover the importance of civil liberties thanks to this election.

    Parent
    and who might "you guys" be???? (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 11:11:06 AM EST
    All I have asked is that you guys tell us the "freedoms/rights/etc." that Bush took from you.

    Your turn.

    Parent

    The (minmal) right (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 11:33:04 AM EST
    to a President who can pronounce, spell and conceptually grasp the concept of democracy, for starters.

    Parent
    Would you like some more.. PANCAKES!!! (none / 0) (#35)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 11:53:38 AM EST
    Hahahaha!

    Parent
    minimal (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 11:33:22 AM EST


    Boston Legal (none / 0) (#44)
    by DancingOpossum on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 03:42:07 PM EST
    is ending? Now I'm sad. I adore that show. 'Course, I would watch James Spader watching paint dry.

    OMG (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 05:32:30 PM EST
    An actual scientist as opposed to an oil executive, as secretary of energy. That is a change..

    Obama will also nominate Steven Chu, director of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, as his energy secretary, a Democratic Party official said.

    and this:

    President-elect Barack Obama will appoint former Environmental Protection Agency chief Carol Browner to a new position coordinating White House policy on energy, climate and environmental issues, a Democratic aide said on Wednesday

    Reuters

    Monday Evening Open Thread | 55 comments (55 topical)

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