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533,000 Jobs Lost, Unemployment Rate at 6.7%

Expected bad news:

With the economy deteriorating rapidly, the nation’s employers shed 533,000 jobs in November, the 11th consecutive monthly decline, the government reported Friday morning, and the unemployment rate rose to 6.7 percent. The decline, the largest since December 1974, was fresh evidence that the economic contraction accelerated in November, promising to make the current recession, already 12 months old, the longest since the Great Depression. The previous record was 16 months, in the severe recessions of the mid-1970s and early 1980s.

“We have recorded the largest decline in consumer confidence in our history,” said Richard T. Curtin, director of the Reuters/University of Michigan Survey of Consumers, which started its polling in the 1950s. “It is being driven down by a host of factors: falling home and stock prices, fewer work hours, smaller bonuses, less overtime and disappearing jobs.”

Ugh.

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  • Display: Sort:
    OK, so what gets cut? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by SeeEmDee on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:21:20 AM EST
    Gonna have to be some major re-allocation of Federal funding in order to patch the tattered social safety net. I wonder what could be swapped?

    I know! How about the scores of billions of taxpayer's dollars spent annually (and pointlessly) in engaging in the War on (Some) Drugs?

    When Joe and Josephine Sixpack is more concerned about where the family's next meal is coming from, or if they're going to have a roof over their heads, and desperately need ramped-up unemployment insurance, then they're not going to want to hear some Gub'mint wonk pontificating about how they need that money to keep said hard-luck cases' kids off drugs, when they can't even keep them out of prisons.

    Just like last time with alcohol Prohibition, drug prohibition will be 'retired' because it's just too expensive a 'rich man's hobby' to engage in when times get tight. Time to punch more holes to cinch in the fiscal belt, and the DrugWar ought to be the first one.

    Makes perfect sense... (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:41:25 AM EST
    Time to declare victory in Iraq and Afghansitan and end that spending, admit defeat in the war on drugs and end that spending, and declare war on unemployment!

    Since we're so warlike and all...may as well fight a noble war, let's kick the sh*t out of unemployment!  Whaddya say gang?  

    You'd find people a lot less skeptical and negative about all the bailouts, govt. loans, job programs, and stimulus packages if the government showed it is willing to prioritize and spend wisely, instead of blindly.

    Show us your serious and that this is a serious situation, Uncle Sam...and not just another moneygrab con-job.  Prove the skeptics and cynics wrong for a change.

    Parent

    The problem with pulling out of (none / 0) (#110)
    by hairspray on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:10:00 PM EST
    Iraq and Afghanistan is that the costs of the soldiers and their equpment doesn't end. It is still on the books as well as all those @#$&* cold war weapon systems.  If our MIC is  collapsed in a few short months the unemployment will skyrocket to 15% if it isn't close to that already. No, I think the baloon will be deflated slowly until some other stimulus kicks in. GWB deserves to be prosecuted for his high crimes and misdemeanors.

    Parent
    Doubt it will follow the route (none / 0) (#9)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:38:28 AM EST
    of prohibition's repeal.  The groundwork of educating the public has not been done...yet.

    As for prisons, users are increasingly entering diversion programs in my state.  The so-called 'drug courts' are very successful.  Crystal meth isn't a 'rich man's hobby' here and the kids on pills don't qualify for that category either.

    We need a better sales pitch than the one you have so far provided to change the debate, much less the policy response.

    Parent

    Along those same lines... (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 01:28:45 PM EST
    ...the DFH's over at the Wall Street Journal have this to say.

    ...But there's nothing like a depression, or maybe even a full-blown recession, to make taxpayers question the price of their prejudices. That's what ultimately hastened prohibition's repeal, and it's why we're sure to see a more vigorous debate than ever before about ending marijuana prohibition, rolling back other drug war excesses, and even contemplating far-reaching alternatives to drug prohibition...

    Is President-elect Barack Obama going to commemorate Repeal Day today? I'm not holding my breath. Nor do I expect him to do much to reform the nation's drug laws apart from making good on a few of the commitments he made during the campaign: repealing the harshest drug sentences, removing federal bans on funding needle-exchange programs to reduce AIDS, giving medical marijuana a fair chance to prove itself, and supporting treatment alternatives for low-level drug offenders.

    But there's one more thing he can do: Promote vigorous and informed debate in this domain as in all others. The worst prohibition, after all, is a prohibition on thinking.

    http://tinyurl.com/666fbb

    Parent

    Seriously (none / 0) (#14)
    by Slado on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:44:04 AM EST
    The drug war cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the other things the government spends it's money on.

    Military, Medicare, Social Security would be the first things the government could cut to put more money into the economy.

    Problem is partisans on both sides will have major problems with a President cutting these programs.

    Here's a simple chart to let you know where our money goes...

    How the government spends your money

    Parent

    how do you cut medicare (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:02:41 AM EST
    and social security?

    Parent
    So, you have a problem (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by dk on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:04:17 AM EST
    with the partisans who want to spend money on medicare?  Personally, I'm ok with the idea that elderly people should have access to health care.  But in our new society, I guess that makes me a problematic partisan, huh?  Great...

    Parent
    Ummm....no. (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:20:18 AM EST
    The military, medicare (and medicaid) and social security actually put money directly into the economy through the individuals who get those checks every month.

    Parent
    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Manuel on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:29:07 AM EST
    Military, Medicare, Social Security would be the first things the government could cut to put more money into the economy.

    Military, Medicare, and Social Security are already putting money into the economy as efficiently as any economy rescue plan.  Now is not the time to cut government spending.  

    Parent

    At the state level (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:39:37 AM EST
    they're already cutting spending severely.

    It is a scary time.

    Parent

    The states... (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:43:36 AM EST
    can't borrow from China...If they could they'd be borrowing instead of cutting spending and raising taxes.

    Living somwhat within your means is kinda hard.

    Parent

    Many(most?) states require balanced budgets (none / 0) (#51)
    by Manuel on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:50:56 AM EST
    They don't have the tools (The Fed) to set monetary policy and manage deficit spending.  I expect aid to states and local government to be part of Obama's fiscal stimulus package.  It won't make up for all the cuts being made now but it will help.

    Parent
    You "expect" it to. (none / 0) (#66)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:24:45 AM EST
    That doesn't mean it's going to.

    We expected Obama to vote against FISA.  He instead voted for it.  I don't think we can expect anything of Obama.

    Parent

    "I don't think we can expect anything" (none / 0) (#69)
    by CST on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:29:52 AM EST
    Really, not even the worst?

    Parent
    It isn't just Obama (none / 0) (#89)
    by Manuel on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    The Democrats know they now "own" the economy.  We'll get a robust serious stimulus package that includes infrastructure spending, green jobs and aid to local and state government.  Many Republicans and some fiscal conservative Democrats will oppose it but the plan will pass and Obama will sign it.

    Parent
    At least not those programs. They (none / 0) (#111)
    by hairspray on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:15:24 PM EST
    run through the population and support the elderly and provide for our health care system.  Now, outdated weapon systems seem to be a good place to start, but I can hear all of the teeth gnashing about loss of jobs. So the dilemna is...

    Parent
    You must never have looked at them. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:05:49 AM EST
    Military, Medicare, Social Security would be the first things the government could cut to put more money into the economy.

    Social Security is a forced individual retirement, disability and survivor insurance programed funded by contributions from your wages that is approximately doubled for the self-employed or matched by your employer.

    Medicare is also funded by deductions from your wages.

    Plus, Medicare charges around $100 a month per member for Doctor and Hospital care at 80% of the charges for Doctor and a huge deductible for the hospital.

    Medicare Rx insurance varies depending on what you select, but a good aveerage would be $25-$40-$100 per month for standard-better-best.

    Many seniors purchase supplemental insurance to cover what Medicare doesn't pay at around $150
    per month.

    Personally my spouse and I pay around $625.00 per month.

    Point being. It aint free, it aint welfare and it aint cheap.

    So get your paws off of it.

    Parent

    Thank you for pointing out the obvious (none / 0) (#74)
    by Slado on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:43:56 AM EST
    For every dollar Medicare/Social Security actually remove from the economy through taxation (even pre-tax taxation) I would argue that $1 is not put directly back in.    By the time you actually get the dollar it's probably worth 50-75% of what it once was in real value depending on which point of the political spectrum you come from.

    Point being any dollar given to you by the government cost the real economy more to produce.

    That's just the difference between being a liberal and being a conservative.  Realizing that a dollar actualy left in the economy untouched by government is worth more then the one the governmet has run through the system.

    To be fair same goes for military spending.

    Parent

    I didn't say they were "good" (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 01:05:36 PM EST
    I said the reality is that they exist and should not be on the table for any "cuts."

    Parent
    Drop in the bucket... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:06:17 AM EST
    it may be in the large scheme of things, but it is totally wasted spending.  Totally, utterly, tyrannically wasted.

    Drop in the bucket here, drop in the bucket there...it adds up Slado.  Like when you're food shopping...20 cents off here, 50 cents off there, next thing you know you saved yourself 20 bucks.

    Parent

    Ooo charts (none / 0) (#43)
    by Faust on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:34:27 AM EST
    Here's another chart!

    Parent
    It isn't (none / 0) (#123)
    by cal1942 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:56:20 PM EST
    going to be just

    Joe and Josephine Sixpack

    It will hit everyone.

    Do not ask for whom the bell tolls ...

    Parent

    My sources tell me... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Slado on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:36:12 AM EST
    That we won't see the bottom of the housing market until the middle of next year.

    All manufacturing will be down next year and it depends on which industry you're in as to how much.

    We will not start coming out of this until 2010 at the earliest.

    Obama's job is to make the fall as short as possible, ride it out and get things going in the right direction.   He will need to be careful not to stall the economy and create a Jimmy Carter like stagflation.   So far he is making all the right moves (or at least indicating he will through appointments and his words) but he's not in office yet and partisan/congressional pressue doesn't mean anything till he's sitting at the desk.

    Hope he does the right thing.

    Stagflation (none / 0) (#124)
    by cal1942 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:58:31 PM EST
    Jimmy Carter like stagflation

    befgan before Jimmy Carter.

    What you should worry about is deflation not inflation.

    Parent

    As my hubby says: (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by rooge04 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:01:02 AM EST
    This must mean we need more tax cuts and less government! /snark

    Unemployment Rate at 6.7%... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by desertswine on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:53:03 AM EST
    If the govt say unemployment is 6.7%, I gotta wonder what it really is.

    The razor wielded by an arid pig (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:05:07 AM EST
    I wonder if that includes... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:10:46 AM EST
    people working off the books or in the black market...probably not.

    Hard to get a firm grasp on any kind of economic stats when the black market isn't even factored in...namely America's #1 cash crop.

    Parent

    They also are not paying taxes (1.00 / 1) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:20:04 AM EST
    be they FIT, FICA or medicare or state income..

    That is why National Health Care should be paid for by a national sales tax...

    BTW - They are using our schools, hospitals, legal... facilities...

    Close the border, anyone??

    Parent

    Tiresome. . . (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by andgarden on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:21:38 AM EST
    Facts often are (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:38:37 AM EST
    No (none / 0) (#125)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 12:03:31 AM EST
    it was your exceedingly lame suggestion of paying for UHC (of whatever variety) via sales tax that's so tiring.

    Looks like the Cons are throwing in the towel in opposition to some form of UHC and are now trying to make it's supporting revenue as regressive (and unpopular) as possible.

    Parent

    Is success boring to you? (1.00 / 0) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 09:26:58 AM EST
    The only fair way to pay for NHC is through a national sales tax. Otherwise you're going to be paying for free health care for the group listed.

    Obama was elected based on income tax CUTS when the tax payers figure out they are going to be hit with large increases to pay for these folks, it will fail, just as Hillary's plan failed in '93.

    If you want to exempt certain items that the "poor" spend a greater percentage of their income on, say unprepared food, used cars, etc.... that could be done.

    Parent

    My state runs on sales tax (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 07:17:21 PM EST
    and you'd have to steal or live at the foodbank and the freestore to avoid paying it.  8.4%  (Not applied to basic food, medicine or services.

    Parent
    The numbers are generated from (none / 0) (#76)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:55:06 AM EST
    applications for unemployment insurance - and are really just estimates - typically estimated to the low side.  That means that a lot of people are not counted - anyone who is self employed for instance can't apply for unemployment insurance - so they aren't counted.  If you consider the fact that this country is largely driven by small businesses many of which are sole proprietors - there's definitely a gap in the estimate.

    I heard one economist on CNBC saying that the actual percentage of unemployed people was probably north of 10% and that was back in September before the total 1.25 million that have been estimated to have been lost during the past three months.  

    Parent

    Ugh, ugh, ugh (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by andgarden on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:12:06 AM EST


    We have no idea what ... (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:15:14 AM EST
    the real unemployment rate is.  Because they do everything they can to make it seem as low as possible.

    Well, we do know one thing.  It's higher thatn 6.7%

    David Leonhardt (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by andgarden on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:26:47 AM EST
    Thx ... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:39:46 AM EST
    it's rare to find the press actually writing about this discrepancy.

    In fact, it's rare for the NYT to publish an article with "Workers" in the headline.

    Parent

    To the NYT (none / 0) (#127)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 12:39:56 AM EST
    workers are an annoyance they'd prefer to ignore.

    Unwashed masses an all, but by all means blame them for whatever, whenever possible.

    Parent

    Exciting quote from that: (none / 0) (#50)
    by Faust on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:49:41 AM EST
    The share of all men ages 16 and over who are working is now at its lowest level since the government began keeping statistics in the 1940s. The share of women with jobs has fallen almost two percentage points from the peak it reached in 2000; at no other point in the past 50 years has the share of employed women has fallen so much from its peak.

    Um. Hold me?

    Parent

    Oh and even better: (none / 0) (#52)
    by Faust on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:52:19 AM EST
    November payrolls fell 533K, the biggest drop in 34 years and much worse than the consensus -335K. And there was a massive net revision of -199K to the previous two months' numbers, thanks largely to overdue downward revisions to the seasonals. This is almost indescribably terrible. In the past six months the US has lost 1.55M jobs, almost as many as were lost in the whole 2001 recession, which included 9/11 and the two months after. The pace of job losses is accelerating alarmingly, as this report attests, with steep drops in most sectors but the biggest deterioration in services.


    Parent
    Kevin Phillips writes about the (none / 0) (#112)
    by hairspray on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:23:49 PM EST
    employment indicaters and how they have been manipulated over the last few decades. Now no one really knows what it is, but Phillips suggests it is almost double the stated value.  Kevin Phillips writes this in "Wealth and Democracy."

    Parent
    yadda yadda (1.00 / 0) (#173)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 10:24:30 AM EST


    Expected yet still sobering (none / 0) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:06:33 AM EST
    I have finally started my Xmas shopping.  Went out a bit last night and can't recall the Mall being so sparsely populated this time of year in my lifetime of Malls.  Felt strange.  The small economy here has a lot of drive behind it due to Fort Rucker and with two wars Fort Rucker jobs and pay haven't gone away, but the local economies seem to be really socked now.

    Similar experience. Linen and Things, (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:07:42 AM EST
    which is going out of business:  maybe 10 employees and 3 shoppers.  My total bill was about $13.  The checker looked really depressed.  But the movie theatre and restaurant were full.

    Parent
    Same here! Sears was almost (none / 0) (#113)
    by hairspray on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:25:05 PM EST
    empty.

    Parent
    Ugh, indeed. (none / 0) (#2)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:11:23 AM EST
    Still, without a good grounding in economics, I'm having a hard time putting it in perspective...given that I remember when 6% ws described as 'full employment'...and how shocked we all were when unemployment actually went below six.  

    And lower still, to five and four+...I don't remember anyone thinking that could ever happen.

    I remember, too, double-digit unemployment rates in the rural areas of the northwest (even 17%) as logging and resource-dependent jobs took a huge hit...fishing, too...as government restrictions and successful environmental lawsuits cut back harvests.

    It is the rapid increase in the (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:23:54 AM EST
    unemployment figures that says Oh sh*t.  The Bush administration also played around a lot with how unemployment figures were tallied up in order to lower the percentages and that gave a few economic voices cause for concern.  Why fiddle with it?  Hard to say exactly what 6.7% meant in Clinton administration terms, just know though that 6.7% during the Bush administration is not the same 6.7% during the Clinton administration.

    Parent
    Come on Tracy (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:44:25 AM EST
    let's have a link that shows that Bush cooked the books.

    I just can't wait until Obama takes office and we find that 7% isn't all that bad, the birds are singing and the path to heaven is again open for travel.

    Parent

    Haven't seen you in ages babe (none / 0) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 02:32:02 PM EST
    where ya been :)? November 3, 2003

    The government's announcement on Tuesday that the economy grew even faster than expected makes the current "jobless recovery" even more puzzling. To give some perspective, unemployment normally falls significantly in such economic boom times. The last time growth was this good, in 1983, unemployment fell 2.5 percentage points and another full percentage point the next year. That's what happens in a typical recovery. So why not this time? Because we have more to recover from than we've been told.

    The reality is that we didn't have a mild recession. Jobs-wise, we had a deep one.

    The government reported that annual unemployment during this recession peaked at only around 6 percent, compared with more than 7 percent in 1992 and more than 9 percent in 1982. But the unemployment rate has been low only because government programs, especially Social Security disability, have effectively been buying people off the unemployment rolls and reclassifying them as "not in the labor force."

    In other words, the government has cooked the books. It has been a more subtle manipulation than the one during the Reagan administration, when people serving in the military were reclassified from "not in the labor force" to "employed" in order to reduce the unemployment rate. Nonetheless, the impact has been the same




    Parent
    Here's a link to an old diary at DailyKos (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 02:41:25 PM EST
    where some idiot who calls himself Armando is attempting to understand how in 2004 BushCo claimed all this amazing job creation while unemployment actually increased at the same time.  Hmmmmm, I wonder how that happened?  God that Armando poster was such a pain :)

    Parent
    about the main point, but, just for kicks, if, say, due to legal immigration and population growth etc. the available labor pool increases by 100,000 workers and 90,000 new jobs are created such that 90,000 of the 100,000 get jobs, that means the 10,000 that don't get jobs get added to the unemployment numbers.

    iow,

    job creation while unemployment actually increased at the same time.

    No idea if this reflects what happened or didn't happen in 2004, just saying it could and probably has happened. Pehaps a lot.

    Parent

    So Bush did this?? (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 03:00:04 PM EST
    Somehow I don't think a Bush appointee did this.

    And a NYT article that speculates using 10 year old data doesn't prove anything....

    Please show that he/she did....

    Where have I been?

    Oh, doing my own thing.

    Plus I have lurked a bit but I didn't find the Hill vs Obama arguments very interesting.

    Parent

    If a Bush appointee didn't decide to recook (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:34:56 PM EST
    unemployment figures by reclassifying certain groups that were previously considered unemployed in 2003 I don't who did.  Amazes me how you wingers hold him accountable for nothing, as if he were a child or something instead of the President of the United States and responsible for all that job entails.  I didn't tell him to run for an office he wasn't qualified for and he couldn't handle, he did that to himself and he's accountable for that too.  P.S. these figures are 5 yrs old and took place during this yahoos Presidency, they aren't ancient history.

    Parent
    Just a bit of logic (none / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:59:42 PM EST
    Political appointees don't go that low on the totem pole. Those things are civil service stuff... Besides, go back and read the article... it is using data from 10 years back to make assumptions and claims.

    Classic case of early BDS... Look around and you'll find stories of how the number of homeless had increased concurrent with a Repub being sworn in..

    There are numerous things that you can nail Bush on. This type of stuff just weakens your position.

    Parent

    Ridiculous (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 12:54:32 AM EST
    In your fevered fantasy world civil servants act without policy direction from higher level political appointees. Jeez. I'll bet you actually believe that crap. That's plausible because every Con lives in a fantasy world of self-delusion.

    Your whole philosophy is based on fantasy and wishful thinking, it is inherently dishonest and corrupt.

    Parent

    My point is evey bit as valid (2.00 / 0) (#138)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 09:17:17 AM EST
    as you believing a Bush appointee reached down into the ranks and established a scheme with a civil service workers.... yes it would take more than one.... to fake the numbers.

    It didn't happen. The article is nutso speculation based on no real facts. Paranoia becomes you.

    Here is some information you may find interesting.

    Parent

    When it comes reclassifying (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 09:23:36 AM EST
    segments of the population to make figures look better, no grunt gets to decide any sort of thing that could end up having extreme political implications (by the way which is what the entire Bush presidency has delivered to the whole Republican party without apology either) except in your fevered little mind.

    Parent
    I see you still engage (2.00 / 0) (#152)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 02:21:57 PM EST
    in jaw flapping with no proof.

    Parent
    yadda yadda (2.00 / 0) (#166)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 09:31:15 AM EST
    There is more evidence out there (none / 0) (#162)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 05:10:27 PM EST
    of the Bush administration toying with unemployment figures than just this link.  If you really wanted to know you'd do a bit of investigating yourself. And as long as the credit default swaps aren't transparent nobody is going to understand how we got to this place in our economy. As long as Bush is president what was done with credit default swaps won't see any light of day either.  See ya after the inauguration though ppj.

    Parent
    Logic is not a four letter word. (2.00 / 0) (#168)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 09:38:14 AM EST
    Rule of the Internet. You made the claim, you prove the blame.

    Face. You still have BDS.

    One more time. None of the bad things could have happened if Fannie and Freddie had not be expanded in '99 and/or if Barney F and led the Demos in assisting Bush in 2003 and/or McCain in 2005.

    Cause and effect, MT. Really simple to understand.

    I'll try again.

    If you put a $1,000,000 on the sidewalk thieves will come and get it.

    Your heroes put the money on the sidewalk.

    Bush tried to protect it.

    Your heroes wouldn't help.

    Parent

    What is BDS? (none / 0) (#176)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 01:20:05 PM EST
    Not only did DA (none / 0) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 07:33:45 PM EST
    tell us that BDS stands for Bush Derangement Syndrome.....

    He demonstrated it.'

    Thanks DA.

    Parent

    And more to come: (none / 0) (#5)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:25:36 AM EST
    "We see the unemployment rate at 8.6 percent by the end of 2009," Global Insight said. (At the end of the article).

    I suppose the upside is that more people are paying off debt, avoiding more debt and saving more...fearful of the future...knowing hope and change won't pay the bills in the near future.

    Don't know how you can assume that (none / 0) (#10)
    by Slado on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:39:08 AM EST
    If you loose your job and don't have any money I doubt you're going to be saving more and paying of debt.

    I would expect to see people's personal debts rise, at least the people hit the hardest, while maybe people who keep a job cut back as you predict.

    Problem is cutting back isn't going to help.  It's going to make the problem last longer as consumer demand drops and there is less and less economic activity.   Those who don't suffer or aren't a greatly affected need to be prudent but not excessively.   We're all in this together and if we all pull back this thing will just last longer.

    Send me a check Obama.  I'm ready to spend!

    Parent

    What? You assume I assume? (none / 0) (#25)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:04:34 AM EST
    Nonsense...

    If the Olympics ever establish an event in conclusion-jumping, I can field a gold-medal team just from the blogs...

    Parent

    Check your state and local budgets. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Fabian on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:28:32 AM EST
    Ohio and Columbus are wielding the budget axes without apology.  Local rec centers and pools are closing temporarily.  Services of all types are going to take big hits.

    I'm sure people will be unhappy but all the outrage and LTEs in the world don't pay the bills.

    Our PBS & NPR stations do good state and local news coverage.  I listen and groan and pray this is all "temporary".

    Sad (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:34:06 AM EST
    The things our kids need the most when times get trying are the first things to go.

    Parent
    My local branch library got (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:57:47 AM EST
    a six-month reprieve.  Recreation centers and swimming pools in poorer areas of the city didn't.  Guess who made the make noise with city council?

    Parent
    Squeaky wheel squeaky wheel (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:01:58 AM EST
    One thing my husband has taught me as he works within the bureaucracy is squeaky wheel.

    Parent
    G_d, I hope the military (none / 0) (#13)
    by Fabian on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:42:42 AM EST
    continues to come through for you and your family.

    I'm just counting my blessings that my special needs kids have made through the crucial early years.  The school district hasn't made any noises about budget cuts yet.  The fed's unfunded mandate wrt special needs education has hit many schools hard and their programs are underfunded.  Ours are very good but it takes money....

    Parent

    We are all vulnerable (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:55:10 AM EST
    I have always been in touch with that but a lot of people haven't been.  If something happens to Josh's medical coverage Shriners will probably pick it up from there.  One of my great Uncles was a potentate in California and when Josh was born he hightailed it CO for a visit.  He asked me to put Josh in their program and at first I told him that Josh didn't need it and it was for kids who had no resources.  I didn't mean to insult my Uncle but I did.  Shriners breaks a lot of ground in Orthopedic health issues and children and they were also one of the sites selected for the FDA approval of the titanium rib.  My Uncle said to me that he had worked all of his life to improve the orthopedic challenges of children and now when someone in his own family needed it his work wouldn't be helping.  I felt terrible.  Josh became part of the program a couple of months later.

    Parent
    Yes. It takes money (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:58:12 AM EST
    because 80-85% of school budgets are for employing people (all staff and their retirement and healthcare, etc.)

    The feds have never come close to funding the costs of 'special ed' and many districts responded by classifying lots of kids who weren't really eligible to increase their federal funding.  Pretty shocking 'growth' in those numbers before the federal oversight began cracking down.

    Parent

    Local (city/county) are tight (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:45:51 AM EST
    but not in big trouble (rainy-day fund, etc.) but the state (Washington) is in a world of hurt.  Basic education (K-12) and debt service for bonds are constitutionally protected and no one is going to shut down the prisons, stop paying state employees or retirees (including their health insurance)...so the remaining 40% of the budget will have to take all the hit of a $5B revenue shortfall projected for the next biennium, beginning July 1st '09.

    Nightmare.  Cannot posibly close that gap...

    Parent

    It was a different economy. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Fabian on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:44:11 AM EST
    It's tempting to compare then and now, but our economic woes are not the same.  It's definitely a different world now.

    Our (none / 0) (#129)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 01:09:39 AM EST
    economic woes are all too similar with the late 20s.

    The biggest difference in our world today is that the federal government is much bigger, spends lots more money, meaning that the unemployment rate and the general level of suffering wouldn't be as great as experienced in the early 30s, but an economic collapse of the magnitude that we seem to be confronted with will still hurt very very badly.

    Parent

    It's all global now. (none / 0) (#136)
    by Fabian on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 07:58:48 AM EST
    I can't even begin to project what the global fallout will be or how that will impact our national and regional economies.  

    The only bright spot is that the high oil prices were driving up the cost of food.  Now that oil prices have fallen, food prices won't be shooting skyward.  The downside is that as the economy recovers, if we haven't invested heavily in alternative energy and transportation, oil prices and food prices will both skyrocket.

    Parent

    Population migration (none / 0) (#16)
    by ruffian on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:45:11 AM EST
    I don't get the sense that it is regional in nature either, though I have not examined the data. When I graduated from college in 1979, my hometown of Rockford Illinois, northwest of Chicago, with a primarily industrial economy at that time, had 18% unemployment.  No, that is not a typo.  Millions of people, including myself, migrated from the midwest to the west in those years.  This time I don't get the impression that there is any part of the country doing particularly well enough to spark such a migration. And with home values falling across the board, leaving people underwater in their mortgages, it is harder to move even if you wanted to chase a job.

    Something to watch...

    Yes. Good point. (none / 0) (#18)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:52:14 AM EST
    The young can move...and should...but I have observed locally (small town, under 10,000) that the huge growth in foodbank use is by people with large families and few skills moving here where jobs are severely limited.  Talk about your bad decisions...

    Parent
    Move where? (none / 0) (#35)
    by CST on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:00:45 AM EST
    I don't get the feeling there is anyplace doing well enough to want to go.  People are moving, but they are moving home and in with family, or to places with affordable housing - not necessarily due to jobs.

    Parent
    Maybe to these places? (none / 0) (#82)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:05:41 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/5tr2xo  (Forbes listing of the best places to ride-out an economic downturn)

    Parent
    A little research couldn't hurt! (none / 0) (#102)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 07:11:09 PM EST
    Of course, few people read Forbes...or do much research, for that matter.

    Parent
    Perhaps (none / 0) (#131)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 01:28:48 AM EST
    where they came from was even worse.

    Parent
    What was the name of that wonderful movie (none / 0) (#115)
    by hairspray on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:35:16 PM EST
    with Henry Fonda on the migration of people from the dust bowl of the '30's?

    Parent
    The Grapes of Wrath? n/t (none / 0) (#122)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:07:32 PM EST
    in august (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 08:57:52 AM EST
    I predicted 7.0 not too far off but i was expecting a lot more before the first of the year.  After the first of the year and into the first quarter we will be at 7.0  

    We will have a record business and personal bankruptcies next year and UI claims will remain above 6.5 for the entire year.  

    Had our representatives acted on a stimulus program that created jobs earlier this year, we would be looking at a start of a recovery by June 09.  Instead, they waited until the demo could be elected and implement a jobs stimulus so that the left could take credit for it.  For all those people who will be out of work for those extra months, remember how your representatives played politics while the economy crumbled....

    Unfair (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Manuel on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 01:21:50 PM EST
    Instead, they waited until the demo could be elected and implement a jobs stimulus so that the left could take credit for it.  For all those people who will be out of work for those extra months, remember how your representatives played politics while the economy crumbled....

    I don't have high regard for our Representatives but this is too cynical.  Deficit spending is not popular politically.  Republicans oppose it.  Bush opposed it.  Some Democrats oppose it.  Even participants in this board oppose it.  Given that the severity of the problem wasn't evident to everyone until recently, an appropriate fiscal stimulus package was not doable politically.  The country is ahead of its representatives.  That is why Obama and the Democrats won the election.  Now they need to act.

    Parent

    they needed to act (none / 0) (#109)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:00:12 PM EST
    and no majority of republicans would have voted against a jobs bill in deficit spending, let's see how many vote against it in January.

    What is UNFAIR is that hundreds of thousands of americans are losing their jobs and their representatives  right and left did nothing for them.

    Parent

    They did a small one (none / 0) (#27)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:15:01 AM EST
    but then the ceiling fell in with the banks/mortgages/Wall Street.

    Your point is well taken now, though.  Pelosi's "we don't have the votes" is baloney on a political level.  They should run the bill and force the Rs in office now to vote on it...and dare Bush to veto.  That should take care of the Rs for a few more cycles and if the package DOESN'T pass...run it again in late January with the new congress and president who will sign.

    This is not rocket science.  It's bad politics and lousy 'leadership.'

    Parent

    Jlvngstn.... is that really you? (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:11:26 AM EST
    We actually agree....

    New record.

    Parent

    yeah but the republicans started (none / 0) (#189)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 04:09:12 PM EST
    it, so there......

    Parent
    Here: (none / 0) (#26)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:47 AM EST
    Unemployment During the Depression (google for chart)

    After the stock market crash of 1929, unemployment in the United States soared, reaching nearly 25 percent in 1932. It remained high until World War II brought an economic recovery.


    What (none / 0) (#130)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 01:26:49 AM EST
    those bland numbers don't show is that in the early 30s the employed workforce took huge hits in the pocketbook.  Wages were cut, hours were reduced. Until Roosevelt got in office there was NO safety net.  No unemployment insurance.

    Three of my uncles worked for Motor Wheel all during this period.  They seldom got the normal 44-48 hour week. Most common were far fewer hours, as few as 8 or 16 in far too many weeks.

    It wasn't uncommon for desperate families to move in with relatives for varying periods of time.

    As always the people who suffered most were those without any culpability in the collapse.

    Parent

    Colorado's oldest business... (none / 0) (#30)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:32:30 AM EST
    ...went up for sale yesterday.  One of our two daily newspapers, the Rocky Mountain News.  

    Also happens to be the first newspaper published in Colorado.  A lot of history and without a doubt one of the driving forces behind Denver's birth and growth.  

    I hate the thought of not having two dailies anymore, but I doubt people will be lining up to buy a dying media outlet in this economy.  

    That sucks.... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:17:09 AM EST
    I'm a paper-junkie too...I buy two papers everyday.

    A dying industry, even before the recent downturn.

    Parent

    I heard this also this morning (none / 0) (#44)
    by easilydistracted on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:35:02 AM EST
    Not good news (no pun intended). When I lived in the Colo/Wyo/Neb area, I always bought the RMN every Sunday morning for sure. I loved the way it was printed in the magazine format or whatever its called. Made it real easy to read on the airplane

    Parent
    Really sorry to hear that (none / 0) (#78)
    by ruffian on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:58:28 AM EST
    I was a RMN subscriber for 14 years when I lived in Castle Rock. Not the greatest paper I've ever read, but decent, and I hate to see it go.

    Parent
    You just know that Republicans are (none / 0) (#33)
    by ThatOneVoter on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:52:40 AM EST
    going to be referring to the "Obama recession" in a few months.

    In a few months? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Faust on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:39:52 AM EST
    They are doing it now.

    Parent
    Well, he was elected and the market went off (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:16:52 AM EST
    20% or so.

    Night follows day, eh?

    Parent

    The market was already tanking (none / 0) (#68)
    by CST on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:27:27 AM EST
    And I'm sure it had nothing to do with the actual financial state of the markets.

    Obama hasn't DONE anything yet.  Those companies were already cooked.

    The stock market is not the only economic indicator.  Did banks stop lending because Obama was elected too?

    Parent

    To repeat myself, could it be (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:44:01 AM EST
    that a Democratic based energy plan that led to $4.00 gas might have had just a wee bit to do with it?

    that a Democratic based housing bubble that led to foreclosures and falling prices might have had just a wee but to do with it?

    that electing a Democrat who is calling for tax hikes has everyone nervous might have a wee bit to do with it?

    The market and people but on positive expectations and sell on negative real news and expectations.

    Welcome to the Obama Recession... And I pulling like crazy for him to fix it in a hurry...

    Wish Pelosi hadn't shot down oil drilling last spring.......

    Parent

    Ridiculous (none / 0) (#132)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 01:35:12 AM EST
    as usual.

    Parent
    The CPS (none / 0) (#45)
    by OldCity on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:37:56 AM EST
    method is reasonably accurate.  It's not the be-all and end-all, but it's pretty representative, statistically, of nationwide unemployment (as defined by the gov't).

    We tend to confuse underemployment or unable to work as "unemployment".  

    Unemployment above 5% is generally seen as unhealthy.  The situation in America is complicated by the fact that income levels haven't risen apace with per capita debt loads and cost of living.  So, we a conflagration of consumer focus on debt maintenance just when the economy requires an excess of consumer spending.  Without the spending, you have corporate failure, which increases unemployment in multiple sectors...we all get the picture.

    So, unfortunately, this man's opinion is that government is the only way out.  The US will have to massively stimulate the economy to forestall a depression.  This will result in all sorts of partisan bickering.

    the Republicans seem to be undergoing a sort of cognitive dissonance; they're so convinced that their economic strategy is intrinsically what the country needs that they cannot process the fact that the same strategies caused the problem.

    When we go back and analyze this in a few years, I am convinced that we will see flat incomes as a root cause (among many).    

    Well considering that (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Faust on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:44:29 AM EST
    the Republican part is built on a coalition between corporatist Ayn Rand "objectivist" athiests and fundamentalist christians I'm going to say that the fact they are experiencing some congnitive dissonance is not only unsuprising but mandatory to the way their party works.

    Parent
    Do you think (1.00 / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:23:48 AM EST
    that a Democratic based energy plan that led to $4.00 gas might have had just a wee bit to do with it?

    that a Democratic based housing bubble that led to foreclosures and falling prices might have had just a wee but to do with it?

    Parent

    Are you serious? (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by OldCity on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:12:01 PM EST
    The drop in the dollar really killed oil prices, as did gross world-wide demand.

    It's also weak in the extreme to blame Democrats for the housing bubble.  Democrats didn't come up with usorious ARM adjustments.  Democrats didn't develop mortgage products or lending practices.  Most importantly, Democrats didn't facilitate the development of, and then fail to regulate, the financial intruments that really brought down the whole mess, by which I mean the deriviative markets and credit default swaps.  

    You don't want to get into this arguement...I'm a little ahead of you on the finance end of things, apparently.

     

    Parent

    And didn't Greenspan lower the (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by hairspray on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:40:59 PM EST
    interest rates to almost negative zero in 2003?  Robert Reich said that it was that action that provided the tipping point to the housing explosion.

    Parent
    Tipping point? (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by Fabian on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 08:01:35 AM EST
    I'm not sure I'd call it that.  It was definitely tacit approval though.

    Parent
    Ahead?? (2.00 / 0) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:48:31 PM EST
    Have you ever heard of Carter's Community Reinvestment Act? That was expanded under Clinton..

    By STEVEN A. HOLMES (New York Times)

    Published: September 30, 1999

    In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

    The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.

    Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

    .....

    Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.

    In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's

    ''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''

    Mr. Wallison gets a seegar for best performance in future forecasts....

    Link

    Then when Bush tried to rein in the starting to be runaway housing market and the various financial "instruments" in 2003, and McCain again in 2005, Barney jumped in with this.

    ''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

    Barney did it again as late as last July, claiming the things were okay, "going forward." (I think that qualifies as the "oopps of the century.)

    If he was a CEO he would be going to trial for issue false financial information.

    Source link plus video.

    As for the oil prices, the claim re falling dollar vs EU..... Consider that the dollar fell due to the Feds cutting interest rates trying to pump up the housing market.. All commodities rose in price as people moved out of dollars into metals, oil, wheat, corn, etc..... The housing market bubble bursting was the reason the Fed cut, the falling dollar was the effect...

    But this, while hurtful, isn't the total story. In fact, by April prices had stabilized...and things looked better.

    So we know what started it, but what was the trip wire that has caused the collapse?

    Go back to last April. For the previous six months or so the Fed had been dumping money into the markets to keep them liquid and to stem the foreclosures. And it was working. Things didn't look good, but things looked under control.

    Oil prices started the year at around $93.00 and had increased a little bit over $5.00 to $98 at the beginning of April, then $12.00 in April to end at $110 and by the middle of July oil was at $146 and gasoline as $4.00 a gallon.

    ($5.00 increase in 3 months, $48.00 increase in three and and a half months.)

    OPEC oil prices.(link in souce)

    Along with increased energy prices, everything that it effects jumped in price. The people who could barely hang on started defaulting and the spiral started.

    The dagger that was thrust into America's financial heart is oil pricing.

    And remember, it was at that time Pelosi refused to let various bills re drilling come to the floor for a vote.

    OPEC and the speculators assumed they had it made and kept putting it to us. Oil started to fall when Bush belatedly, as he has been on several issues, zapped the Presidential Executive Order signed by Bush I and extended by Clinton. Not much actual effect but the psychology was dramatic. Confidence is paramount in the futures market, so oil fell.... about 6 months too late.

    Parent

    Deeply misconcieved (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by cenobite on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:15:20 PM EST
    No, I think that $4/gal gas had nothing to do with any energy bills passed by congress.

    Due to increased demand from emerging markets and oil depletion, there simply wasn't enough slack oil production to keep the prices down any more (that is, oil buyers bid up the prices against each other to ensure they had a supply). And once the price of oil started to go up, the hedge funds started betting on those prices to go up higher.

    Current prices are where they are because the financial speculators were forced to liquidate their positions to pay off investors, and worldwide demand is down because of the state of the economy.


    Parent

    There is no shortage (2.00 / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 04:46:50 PM EST
    No, I think that $4/gal gas had nothing to do with any energy bills passed by congress.

    Uh, the problem was that there were NO energy bills passed.... or for that matter none were allowed to come to the floor by Nancy P, Queen of Save The Planet!

    Go look at how fast oil went from around $90 to $146.. about 120 days....

    Parent

    I am waiting to hear Obama (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by hairspray on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:45:37 PM EST
    say this to the nation:
    conservation is the quickest way to reduce prices. A 5 percent cutback by U.S. consumers would free up a million barrels a day.



    Parent
    Repeat after me (2.00 / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:56:52 PM EST
    There was no shortage.

    So the demand had nothing to do with anything beyond OPEC's and the speculators belief that they could increase prices in the expectation that there would be an artificial shortage caused by the Demos preventing drilling in the US.

    Once Bush took action the fall started. Bolstered by a falling economy the fall continues.

    It will stop when OPEC realizes Obama will not permit new drilling and, in fact, favors high gasoline prices as way to sell alternative energy sources...

    That none of these work for transportation in the real world doesn't seem to faze him.

    Parent

    Wrong as usual (2.00 / 0) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 09:33:40 AM EST
    Between offshore, ANWR, Baken and shale we have huge amounts of oil.

    Starting at first things first, which intelligent people do, drilling for new oil sends a message to OPEC and the speculators not to gouge. Bush's actions proved that.

    That can, and should be, followed by all the other alternative energy initiatives.

    Didn't one of your heroes say, "A trip of a thousand miles begins with the first step?"

    Parent

    I said "one of your heroes...." (2.00 / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 02:34:24 PM EST
    Which came first, the recession or the lack of demand??

    This country runs on cheap oil.

    If you doubt me, look around.

    You and yours want expensive oil.

    'Nuff said on subjecy.

    yadda yadda and good night

    Parent

    No you are not (2.00 / 0) (#169)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 09:45:22 AM EST
    So why do you?


    Parent
    yadda yadda (none / 0) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 07:37:50 PM EST
    Do you enjoy sniffing my comments??

    Parent
    You should know (none / 0) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 08, 2008 at 08:26:04 PM EST
    because you are always sniffing them.

    yadda yadda

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#149)
    by hairspray on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 12:48:08 PM EST
    starting at first things first, which intelligent people do, drilling for new oil sends a message to OPEC and the speculators not to gouge.
     There is another reason and a more startling one that OPEC has seen.  It is changing the dynamic to alternative energy and reducing the demand on their supplies.  That is the rationale that is operating now.

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 02:29:04 PM EST
    And how many gallons of this "alternative" whatever can you purchase and put in your car?

    Parent
    Think man, think. (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by hairspray on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 11:27:46 PM EST
    If drilling is changing their tune (in the 5-10 year future) why is that any different than alternative substances in the not so distant future?  Even the prospect of cutting our demand by half in 5 years is enough to get OPEC's attention.

    Parent
    And what might be these (none / 0) (#180)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 07:40:09 PM EST
    magical substances we will put in our automobile tanks in  five years??

    Parent
    Or electric plug ins? (none / 0) (#184)
    by hairspray on Mon Dec 08, 2008 at 12:38:58 AM EST
    If you saw 60 minutes tonight you would see the folly of your premise. Leslie Stahl asked a Saudi Minister if the fact that the west was seriously moving to alternative options to oil, and he said yes, not in so many words.  But the answer was there.

    Parent
    Ridiculous (none / 0) (#133)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 01:38:53 AM EST
    Someone should start a count.

    Parent
    Why not you? (none / 0) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 09:34:32 AM EST
    500,000 jobs? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Steve M on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:00:21 AM EST
    Gosh, what's 2 million more?  Let the auto companies go!

    I've seen articles stating (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:23:17 AM EST
    the no. of jobs related to Big 3 is 3 million.  Staggering.  How will Michigan survive?

    Parent
    It won't (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Steve M on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:32:34 AM EST
    Michigan was already in dire straits well before the current crisis.  We will all just have to make do with 49 states.

    Of course, the impact would be felt nationwide considering how many corporations are in the auto companies' supply chain.  And every town has an auto dealership.  Even the foreign manufacturers have a number of joint ventures and shared facilities with the Big Three that probably wouldn't be economically viable on their own.  They won't be savoring the spoils either.

    To me, it's unthinkable that we could even consider putting that many people out of work, while the country is in the early stages of what could be a very long recession.  I'm still keeping the faith that Congress will do the right thing in the end.  But for anyone other than a hardboiled free-market conservative, this ought to be a total no-brainer.

    Parent

    The lame duck Senate is blocking it (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by andgarden on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:37:27 AM EST
    But you know what, the politics right now leads the way on that.

    If the big 3 fail and 3 million lose their jobs, the public will feel differently. However, if Congress goes forward with a bailout, the politics won't change, and everyone will still hate that it was done. (Seriously, public opinion is running 2:1 against the bailout almost everywhere.) Rock, meet hard place.

    Parent

    If the wording (none / 0) (#134)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 01:43:57 AM EST
    in the polls describes it as a bailout the general public disapproves.  If it's labelled assistance or loan, etc. the public approves.

    First step is to get the media, etc. to stop calling it a bailout.

    The best solution is for Congress to act period.

    Parent

    It disgusts me Congress and Bush (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:34:13 AM EST
    admin. are playing chicken re the lives of so many hard-working people.  

    Parent
    Minor quibble.... (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:56:56 AM EST
    not for nothing, the only people the government can put out of work are government employees.

    It is the automakers, or the marketplace, that will be putting people out of work unless the government steps in.

    Honestly, I'm not as averse as I was to an automaker bailout/loan/whateveryacallit...it certainly makes more sense than the Wall St./Bank handout to me.  Still think we should be adamant about offsetting with spending cuts in other areas...namely drug war and military spending.  If DEA agents has to get canned to save autoworkers...so be it.  At least autoworkers accomplish something.

    Parent

    The government has stepped in (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:03:46 PM EST
    with various labor laws, CAFE standards, safety standards, taxes, etc....

    That some of these may have been well intentioned has nothing to do with what the end result has been, or will be.

    Parent

    The Big 3 were (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by OldCity on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:18:56 PM EST
    undone by future obligations via pension and healthcare costs, which they collectively bargained.  They're also, or were bloated in the management ranks.

    They also face strong competition from companies that simply don't have the same fixed costs, vis' healthcare.

    Of course, the Big 3 also didn't help themselves by creating inferior products that involved high ownership costs.  Not only that, but they married themselves to high margin vehicles (SUV's and pickups) with very little development of small cars or efficient cars.  the fact that nypne would blame CAFE standards is a joke.  Virtually every Asian or Asian based import is far more fuel efficient than an American car.

    The real problem is the downstream sequelae.  The demise, or even the bankruptcy of any of the companies will result in huge unemployment in all kinds of collateral industries.  Anyone who ignores that isn't smart enough to make economic judgements.    

    Parent

    Nope (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 01:21:38 PM EST
    I would note that the treatment that the labor unions received was to a large degree, mandated by the government, as was the CAFE standards. And when I say "government," I mean local, state and federal. i.e. TN, GA, SC, KY, et al are not as labor friendly as MI, OH, IL, CA....

    They built SUVs and pick ups because that is what the market place was buying.

    You and I may deplore that the above is true, but that doesn't change them.

    As for quality, I believe you have a 70's hangover, typical of many people on the Left, which I believe you are.

    I drive a full size Buick and get around 26 MPG on the road. I also have a 92 Ranger with a 4 cylinder mated to a 5 speed that gets around 22 mostly around town.... and all the big three have hybrids available now.

    The biggest problem they have is legacy pension costs. Specifically "free" medical benefits for life. I read somewhere that adds around $1800 to the cost of each vehicle.

    Parent

    nope (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by OldCity on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 01:49:22 PM EST
    LAbor contracts are collectively bargained.  The airlines did the same sort of thing.  When the Airline industry was deregulated, that killed the model upon which the contracts were predicated upon.  

    Cafe standards haven't changed since the 70's.  Yet other non-american automakers managed to produce consistently reliable, high mileage vehicles, unlike the big three.  Buick is an anomaly.  They always got high quality ratings.  The same certainly can't be said of Chevy, Pontiac, Chrysler, or Ford.  I work for a company that collects repair data.  Aside of that, if the market was so dedicated to large vehicles, why were Camry's the best selling cars?  The big three decided to fill one part of the market, the high margin part...as if oil prices were going to remain constant.  

    No one associate with the American car industry will ever tell you that they produced a competitive product or that their organizations are particularly well run (I've consulted for them).  

    They have supply chain problems, design problems, initiave problems, quality problems, etc.  Worse, one in eight jobs in America is somehow tied to the big three or to the auto industry.  

    The car companies as recently as a month ago admitted that they aren't producing hybrids in salable volume. that's on the record, by the way...you can look it up.

    The government, honestly, didn't do sh!t to harm Detroit, they did it all themselves.    

    Parent

    You make a good point. (1.00 / 0) (#145)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 10:07:41 AM EST
    When the Airline industry was deregulated, that killed the model upon which the contracts were predicated upon.

    And when the transplants came into our market and started building here, the existing model for labor contracts was destroyed because the newbies located in states that didn't have the same bias for unions that MI, et al have.

    The only way "Detroit" could have broken the contracts would have been to declare them void. The unions would have simply went to court and enforced the contract. If management further declined to do so they would have been jailed.

    As for what they built, they built what they could sell. That is management 101.

    I would like to see the "salable volume" article for context. I suggest what they meant was that the product was in a ramp up stage, which makes sense given the changes.

    BTW - I am not pro management. As part of the bail out I would demand the existing management be replaced and that the BODs have at least 4 new members nominated by Congress and elected in a national vote.

    I would also step in, void the free medical for all those not retired, have the government pay for those who are retired and then insist on more flexible work rules.

    You seem to be in the industry.. perhaps you can tell us this.

    The media keep saying medical care is for "life." That doesn't make sense since the retiree is eligible for Medicare at age 65.  Don't they actually mean "free" from the age of retirement which is after "x" years until they reach 65?

    Parent

    And (none / 0) (#135)
    by cal1942 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 02:09:07 AM EST
    a very major part, probably the driving part, IMO, is the ascendence of finance in our economy.

    In the past finance served its borrowers. In recent decades industry and commerce have become the servants of finance. They even have their people running the auto industry.

    Parent

    Cafe Standards? When? And how high? (none / 0) (#150)
    by hairspray on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 12:52:15 PM EST
    Secede to Canada? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Fabian on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:39:57 PM EST
    Take a chunk of the Great Lakes with you?

    (See if the federal government cares then!)

    Parent

    I'm thinking they might (none / 0) (#62)
    by andgarden on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:20:59 AM EST
    It seems true that there aren't enough votes in the Senate to bail out the big 3.

    That's terrifying.

    Parent

    Should President-elect Obama (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:10:12 AM EST
    speak out?  Barney Frank thinks so and so does Chris Dodd.

    Chris Dodd? (5.00 / 7) (#87)
    by NYShooter on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:48:30 PM EST
    That would be THE Chris Dodd, the ivory maned, non-stop talking point, ventriloquist's dummy?
    He was on Charlie Rose the other night, and Charlie seemed to be in a quite serious mood. Dodd flipped his lips onto auto pilot, droning on and on about the catastrophe we're trying to avoid, and how irresponsible the banks were (are?) Charlie attempted to break in and ask a question, but the rapid fire lips were into after burner mode. Finally Charlie got his attention; and said something in a low whisper; Dodd says, huh? Charlie, quite obviously annoyed at being played for one of Dodd'ring's constituents,  looks at him, and says, "you were there."......Dodd says, "Huh?".........."YOU WERE THERE!"
    The implication was, obviously, Dodd ranting away as if he was "Joe Six-pak," and the look in Charlie's eyes was saying, "Fool! You were there! Why didn't you bring up all these things when you had the bankers sitting there in front of you?" Dodd's heart sank....my Lord, he was being called out by someone with a brain. What to do?
    C...."You gave away billions."
    D....."Yup."
    C...."It was supposed to help."
    D.    "Yup."
    C....."It didn't."
    D...."Nope."
    C. ..."Why did you let them do it?"
    D....."We had to do something."
    E...."They're hoarding the money."
    D...."Yup."
    E....."That's not what the taxpayers expected."
    D...."Nope."
    C...."No instructions, no strings, no oversight?"
    D...."Nope."
    C...."Now what are you going to do?"
    D. ...(I swear to G*d he actually said this,"I'm trying to find time on my schedule next year to hold hearings."
    C...."hearings?"...."Next year?"
    D...."The American people have a right to know."

    "Change we can believe in."


    Parent

    I hope that is on Youtuibe (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 01:23:30 PM EST
    I laffed and laffed...

    Parent
    Not funny, Magee... (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by oldpro on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 07:25:04 PM EST
    I have the (1.00 / 0) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 09:37:21 AM EST
    audacity of hope that someone will tell these puff bags that they are responsible.

    Charlie Rose did that. $75,000 Dodd's responses must be either laughed or cursed at.

    Laughing is better for my blood pressure.

    Parent

    OK...but it's still not funny. (none / 0) (#148)
    by oldpro on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 12:21:58 PM EST
    Dodd is an idiot.  A pompous ass, but no more pompous and infuriating than Charlie Rose on most occasions.

    These people NEVER make me laugh.  More likely to cringe.  Cry.  Swear.

    Right...not good for my blood pressure either, so I seldom tune them in.

    Right...laughter is the best medicine.

    Denny Crane.

    Makes me laugh every time.

    Parent

    Operative word.... (none / 0) (#151)
    by NYShooter on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 01:25:15 PM EST
    ".....on MOST occasions."

    On THIS occasion, he, obviously, was pushed over the brink.

    While Charlie often is a forum for book sellers spouting their talking points, I felt on THIS occasion, even he had had enough. He seemed genuinely insulted that, face to face, Dodd would use him to continue his blathering nonsense.


    Parent

    Charlie got a look at (2.00 / 0) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 02:37:59 PM EST
    what the pols think of their hand maidens.....and didn't like it....... but he forgets fast.

    Parent
    You know........ (5.00 / 0) (#156)
    by NYShooter on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 03:14:20 PM EST
    These "hosts" have to do a delicate pirrouette with their guests. Why would our vaunted politicians go before a person, or panel, where actual, pertinent, meaningful questions are asked? In the current 24/7, content hungry media, shows need warm bodies. Unfortunately, for most of the public, that's enough......just ask Larry King.

    I swear, if a politician finished one of his canned answers with, "and then I went home and killed my mother," the "reporter," (the one with the earpiece) would follow up with, " so, where next on your tour, Senator?"    


    Parent

    In case you needed a link for that (none / 0) (#67)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:26:59 AM EST
    Here it is....

    Link

    Parent

    Blessing in disguise? (none / 0) (#79)
    by nellre on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:03:42 PM EST
    Our fearful leaders have avoided spending money on our crumbling infrastructure for decades. We look like a developing country now.
    So an FDR style program to employ people to repair and enhance our infrastructure kills two birds with one stone.

    Huge overstatement (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 12:04:47 PM EST
    Overstatement of what? (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 02:35:17 PM EST
    To paraphrase Einstein (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 02:58:56 PM EST
    you cant solve problems with the same kind of thinking you used to create them.

    How many of the economic savants, wonks, conultants and NYT/Wall St mouthpieces (in between working themselves into an ecstatic lather over things like Free Trade), saw any of this coming? Not many it seems. And yet, some still have the truely monumental arrogance to expect developing nations to follow our lead and dance to our tune.

    Sometimes you dont know whether to laugh or cry.

    Parent

    Nice raises some of those (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 03:48:39 PM EST
    managers are getting over at AIG. For what exactly, I'd like to know?

    Someone explain this phenomenon to me, and dont even try giving me that crap about how this how they retain the best of the best.

    Parent

    It's not perfect (none / 0) (#121)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 10:05:41 PM EST
    but it beats anything I have seen coming out of any of the so-called developing countries.

    Did anyone see "this/now" perfect storm?

    No. But some saw the danger....

    ''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''

    NYT 9/30/1999

    Like a rain drop that becomes a flood...

    Parent

    A lot of people saw the "perfect storm" (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 09:42:31 AM EST
    coming and wrote lots about it.  You need to read more and worship at the conservative altar of the American Enterprise Institute less.  My family was totally ready for this.  The one thing that nobody was ready for was the credit default swaps which are not transparent to anyone but are what fertilized to the hilt the growing of the crap that the investment banks were selling to EVERYONE and that everyone was buying.  President Bush's SEC decided that CDSs didn't need regulation or transparency, and CDSs are the reason that no matter how much money we attempt to give banks it isn't freeing up the interbank credit.  The banks are full of phoney assets insured by these CDSs that are defaulting now at a rate that none of the insurers can pay off.  Most of the banks need every penny they can get their hands on and they can't afford to share with anyone.  If they don't need the money and they can lend it, these banks full of phoney assets propped up CDSs are not considered a sound risk loan and being credit worthy matters now.

    Parent
    And Dark Avenger you can go ahead and (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 05:05:51 PM EST
    give me a two and after Obama becomes president and the credit default swaps become more transparent you can apologize to me!

    Parent
    Sorry, chapped me man (none / 0) (#163)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 05:13:05 PM EST
    I keep waiting to get some solid figures on CDSs.  I'm frothing and champing, you should see me.  It's scary.  But I just gotta wait and wait and take all kinds of back talk from the peanut gallery :)

    Parent
    And don't get sassy ppj (none / 0) (#164)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 05:34:45 PM EST
    just because I can admit my fave team isn't populated with perfect angels (wish you could find some standards yourself to work into your postings)but I'm going to be very honest with who I think is responsible for what. What in my opinion lit the fire under the credit default swaps was the new bankruptcy legislation that we all know our future VP was all for, and some of our fave Dems voted for as well.  See, Wall Street went and hired themselves a whole bunch of engineers who used that new legislation that made filing bankruptcy very very long term painful and a creditor having to write much off almost unheard of and they used it.  They wrote a whole bunch of formulas showing how a loan could never be a bad thing because those recieving it were indentured servants until the loan was paid.  The loans that were less secure were also going to accrue a lot of late fees as well that we all know have been sky high.......more moneymaker and you own these people.  With the new bankrupcty legislation and the new engineers of Wall Street there was no such thing as a bad loan until in reality there was.

    Parent
    Sassy?? You gonna threaten (2.00 / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 10:23:47 AM EST
    to spank me again? ;-)

    Hey, you're the one having the hissy fit.....

    "...being honest with who..."

    It is not that you believe that I question. That you don't understand is a demonstrable fact.

    But after being exposed to the facts, ignorance of the facts is no longer an excuse.

    And yes, "Wall Street" (whoever that really is) hired some munchkins and figured out a way to get their grubby paws on all that money Barney Frank and his minions made available. I have never said otherwise.

    So what? Ducks land on water. Dogs bark. To prevent that, drain the swamp and muzzle the dogs.

    The 1999 expansion of Fannie and Freddie was recognized for what it was by some smart people, and as I have shown, told the world.

    And, as I have shown, Bush tried to fix it in 2003 and Barney and the Demos opposed it.

    And I have never claimed all Repubs are perfect, much less Bush. It's just that you never blame him for mistakes he actually made.

    BTW - Do you assign any personal responsibility to those who bought a house they couldn't pay for? Charged more than they could pay for?

    Who do you think is going to pay for the mess that these people are part of?

    Parent

    When the figures for CDSs become known (none / 0) (#175)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 12:56:46 PM EST
    and the truth about how this economy came to this point is revealed when there is some transparency in who did what, will you not visit here for awhile again due to being overwhelmed by the truth? You are a tiresome Fox News propaganda repeater.  Original thought is a terrible thing to waste.

    Parent
    Truth of what?? (1.00 / 0) (#183)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 07, 2008 at 08:02:45 PM EST
    We already know that "wall street" took every advantage they could. That isn't even in question.

    What you won't admit is that the Demo's pandering to their base in '76 and '99 delivered the money to "wall street" and then blocked the evileeeeee Bush from clamping down in 2003.

    BTW - You do understand, don't you that Franklin Raines, the head of Fannie Mae is a Democrat and made millions based on performance pay... the more they loaned, the more he made...read what Larry Johnson said:

    the main man at Fannie was Franklin D. Raines. Late in 2005 Raines resigned from Fannie Mae, accused of being in charge when the books were cooked. The scheme is fairly simple. Raines and other top executives made bonuses if they hit specific earnings targets for the securities sold by Fannie Mae. They regularly hit those targets until it was discovered by the (SEC) Securities & Exchange Commission's top accountant Fannie misstated earnings for 3 1/2 years, leading to an estimated $9 billion restatement that will wipe out 40% of profits from 2001 to mid-2004.

    Link

    BTW - You do know, don't you, that Speaker Pelosi is an investor in Boone Pickens' NLE. When gasoline goes up, NLE's profits go up...

    As reported on dontgomovement.com, Speaker Pelosi bought between $50,000 and $100,000 worth of stock in Pickens' CLNE Corp. in May 2007 on the day of the initial public offering:

    "She, and other investors, stand to gain a substantial return on their investment if gasoline prices stay high, and municipal, state and even the Federal governments start using natural gas as their primary fuel source. If gasoline prices fall? Alternative fuels and the cost to convert fleets over to them become less and less attractive."

    CLNE also happens to be the sponsor of Proposition 10, a ballot initiative in Pelosi's home state of California to dole out a combined $10 billion in state and federal funds for renewable energy incentives -- namely, natural gas and wind.

    Most of us would call that a conflict of interes, seeing as how she can directly effect energy policies.

    Parent

    Speaking of reading (1.00 / 1) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 10:33:53 AM EST
    The quote comes from a New York Times article written 9/30/99. I welcome all actual proof of others who were saying what this guy said. In that time frame.

    You, and the Left of which you are a member and thus have the bias of, either fail to, or actually don't want to, admit that the cause was the expansion of the bad loans. If they had not existed, nothing would have happened.

    I have no idea as to what you mean by CDSs. It sounds like a buzz word from a KOS diarist.

    You also mix what happened in the past, with what is happening now. (I see your logic hasn't improved.)

    The money that the Democratic controlled Congress threw at the "banks" have no oversight/rules etc. That is true. And the "banks" are taking advantage. But that has nothing to do with what happened in 1999.

    1976, 1999, 2003 and 2005 is "cause." Now we have the cumulative "effect."

    And you continue to ignore the fact that Bush recognized the problem in 2003 and moved to provide new regulations, oversight and transparency. Again, this is how Barney Frank met Bush's efforts.

    ''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

    Link

    McCain tried again in 2005 and couldn't get the help he needed from the Democrats.

    BTW - The same link will give you a link to a video of Barney tell everyone things will be ok going forward. Said statement made last July.

    Parent

    The right wing propaganda machine (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2008 at 05:03:29 PM EST
    that Fannie and Freddie did this is total B.S.!!!!  Fannie and Freddie never had the ability to do this much wholesale burn down, unregulated lending practices every place imaginable did this and that began to happen as soon as the unregulated credit default swap market promised that nobody could lose making loans!  That is the fact and THAT is how we got here and the Bush administration is 100% accountable for all of THAT!

    Parent
    "We look like a developing country now" (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:58:14 PM EST
    It was around 30%. (none / 0) (#114)
    by hairspray on Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 09:32:32 PM EST