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Bush's Undoing: Katrina or Iraq

President Bush's aides are speaking out, saying that it was Hurricane Katrina in 2005 that destroyed America's trust in him and cost him the ability to be an effective President. They say he was never able to recover from it.

I think Iraq was the issue that did him in. When Americans learned there were no weapons of mass destruction -- that we entered this war that took thousands of American lives under false pretenses -- he was toast.

After Iraq, I think Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo hurt him. Not so much because Americans cared about the treatment of the detainees, but because they came to realize how much the rest of the world did.

Between the photos of American military prison guards in Iraq leading prisoners around on leashes and subjecting them to terrifying dogs, electrical cords and sexual humiliation, and repeatedly hearing Guantanamo referred to as a stain upon our nation, for holding detainees for years without charges or access to federal courts, it was inevitable Americans would come to view Bush as a President whose policies tarnished America's image throughout the world.

When do you think Bush irreparably lost the trust of even those Americans who voted for him?

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    Most Americans (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by eric on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:26:21 PM EST
    are followers, so one need only look to the press to see when it was that they finally turned on him.  I suspect it was after Katrina and after it finally was reported that Iraq wasn't going so well.  Then, people felt OK doubting our fearless leader.

    "My Pet Goat" (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:28:13 PM EST


    How about the briefing prior . . . (none / 0) (#9)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:00:11 AM EST
    ya know, I've got to give myself some credit here. My old TV almost made it through the Bush admin. It died a few weeks ago of natural causes, not me throwing something at it! My Pet Goat flashes me to the 9/11 hearings . . . .

    Parent
    Katrina (none / 0) (#42)
    by msaroff on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 09:50:00 AM EST
    Because out in meatspace, Karl Rove and His Evil Minions<sup>TM</sup> had literally made it unspeakable, and nearly unthinkable, to criticize Dear Leader.

    Once Katrina hit, criticism became acceptable in mixed society, and once it did, all of Bush's actions were on the table.

    Parent

    I think Katrina was the stab wound (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:32:31 PM EST
    and Iraq was the infection (even though it started first).

    Personally, I never had a moment: he never had my trust, not for a second. In a just world, he would have never been effective given the way he was "elected," but he somehow managed to force through his massive tax cuts etc, anyway.

    I was pretty much the same (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by nycstray on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:56:01 PM EST
    never thought he was up for the job, and he never had my trust.

    I will say though, I never expected anything like Iraq, Katrina etc. Iraq was more of a known going in, Katrina pretty much blew me away.

    Parent

    He met my worst expectations (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:57:17 PM EST
    My expectations weren't much, lol!~ (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:17:26 AM EST
    But I couldn't even imagine some of it, and Katrina fits into that area. Average citizens were online tracking the storm and arranging rescue prep for after the storm hit (pets and livestock is what I was following for rescue prep). The massive effort that was being coordinated (by many groups for the different animals they specialized in) to be able to move animals to safety, house them, feed them and have the funding needed was pretty amazing to watch. And then our government happened. I think part of it is we are used to seeing them in a bit better light when aid is needed and they couldn't even get water into N.O. As a CA native, I'm used to seeing fairly efficient disaster response. Watching the response to Katrina blew my mind and ripped my heart out. It should have never gone down like that, not even close. Beyond failure. And they had notice beforehand.

    Parent
    Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#22)
    by Fabian on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 06:09:14 AM EST
    and his "known unknowns"?

    Katrina was a "known known".  I knew of at least two scenarios that laid out in detail what would happen to NO if there serious problems like flooding or levee failures.  Yet no one had a plan or if they did, they certainly didn't prepare to implement it.

    This is the kind of job that government is supposed to specialize in, even excel at, and they failed.

    Parent

    Exactly. This is why we pay taxes (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Cream City on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 07:55:14 AM EST
    and not for our taxes to fund Cheney's Haliburton.

    Parent
    and exceeded mine. (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Radiowalla on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:34:41 AM EST
    I expected an Alito, a Roberts (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:37:08 AM EST
    and an Iraq war. Or, you know, things like that. Everything else was just added misery.

    Parent
    all of the above (none / 0) (#58)
    by mrmojeffrisin on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 09:50:34 AM EST
    I agree. I never trusted the clown in the first place, but I reject the either/or premise of the question. He was done in by all of the above.

    Granted, from all accounts, as far as the general public goes, it was Katrina that did him in, but he was already in a weakened state.

    I still can't believe the picture of him at some fundraiser in CA misfretting a G Chord on a guitar some toby keith clone had handed him two days after the levees failed. Talk about your Nero references. The guy handed everyone a club to beat him with, nobody on his staff lifted a finger to stop it and everyone just let it lie there.

    Frankly, I don't know why more use wasn't made of it. No picture summed up the consumate cluelessness of the clown as he tried to strike some rocker pose with a particularly ridiculous look on his face. Not even the Mongolian door massacre holds a candle to it.

    Still, it is utterly pathetic the way his shills and flacks weep and moan as though he/they were merely victims of events, bad breaks and had nothing to do with the mess they've made of things.

    He was an incompetent, illegitimate accident waiting to happen from day one. Unfortunately, he got two terms to work his magic on us and two Supremes later, we are where we are.

    I only wish I could say that at least it'll never happen again, but, in all honesty, I can't.

    Parent

    Agree - Katrina was an unnecessary wound (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:31:19 AM EST
    The Iraq debacle would have been enough on its own.

    Though if Katrina had happened a year earlier we would have gotten President Kerry. Too bad so many of Bush's chickens took their time in coming home to roost.

    Parent

    There's a line in the movie ... (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 10:03:50 AM EST
    ALL THE PRESIDENTS MEN from Deep Throat which goes like this:

    Forget the myths the media's created about the White House. The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

    The same could be said about the Bush administration.  And until Katrina enough of the public was buying the myth.  After Katrina the myth was dead.

     

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#48)
    by CST on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 10:54:27 AM EST
    And the economy was the nail in the coffin.

    Parent
    Who are we going to believe, (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:53:43 PM EST
    Bush's aides or our lying eyes. Given the usual mendacity of his aides, one would have to conclude that the opposite of what they're saying is true.

    Imo, having his aides refocus attention onto Katrina at this particular time is a big old DIVERSION away from the general topic of WAR; especially the current siege of Gaza,  

    Katrina, as it happened here. (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:57:32 PM EST
    Sadly, too many Americans become accustomed to our wreaking of havoc overseas in the name of "war."

    But when we build our infrastructure so poorly that the seas pour into our own cities, and then we leave our own cities looking as bombed-out as Baghdad, and we leave Americans to fend for themselves while the rest of us watch on tv a city sink that so many of us know and love. . . .

    Katrina also brought home, however, the impact of Iraq here, at last.  With so many National Guard and their equipment overseas, they could not serve their purpose here.

    So it became clear, with Katrina, that we had a president who could not achieve even minimal competence in war or in peace.  And that about covers it all.

    To me, it was Katrina (none / 0) (#16)
    by befuddledvoter on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:58:20 AM EST
    I kept wondering how Wal-mart knew how to get bottled water and supplies driven in there and our federal government did not. We should have had Wal-mart lead the rescue.  It was pitiful.  I will never forget.  I could not even talk about it without tearing up. It is happening to me right now.  How could that EVER happen in this country?  While I strongly believe the fish rots from the head down, the failure goes far beyond Bush.  It was an entire system that failed.  Of course, the heads of that system were his picks.  

    Parent
    As I said above (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 01:15:42 AM EST
    I watched animal rescue groups (including livestock) make all kinds of arrangements from transportation, funds to pasture/stall space and bales of food before the storm hit. It was pretty amazing on one hand, but also it was from common sense and experience. And our government?! Oh, and then they blocked the animal groups (and other aid) in the beginning . . . . The failure of Katrina was/is beyond belief. And for me, it still defies words. Just can't think of any that accurately describe what we saw happen. And there was advance warning.

    Parent
    I was surprised that New Orleans, (none / 0) (#20)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 01:43:32 AM EST
    Katrina, FEMA, and preparation for ongoing and impending 'natural' disasters didn't become a major issue during the primary/election season. There was room to focus on those issues without minimizing Iraq.

    But now the Iraq withdrawal has been turned into a long-term proposition with no fixed end in sight. In the immediate future, it would certainly be feasible to rebuild New Orleans before we finish fixing Iraq.

    Parent

    You could just check the polls (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by abdiel on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:58:52 PM EST
    Both you and Bush Administration officials are ignoring the data to present your own opinion.  Looking at popularity polls, it looks like you're both kinda right.

    From the high in approval following 9/11, it seems clear to me that these events damaged public trust.  

    1. Iraq.  Undoubtedly, his 9/11 bounce comes down to Earth when he suggests invading Iraq.  His approval ebbs and flows with events in Iraq - he got nice bumps up from the invasion itself ('mission accomplished') and from Iraq's first election.  His approval dropped slowly but surely as the war wore on.

    2. Abu Ghraib.  This is the event that marks the time when he first falls below 50% approval and never really recovers.  But your analysis is wrong - Americans felt sickened by the allegations because they shook the assumption that America is good.  The president gets blamed whenever this happens (i.e. LBJ and My Lai, for a Dem example.  He fell below 50% too).

    3. Hurricane Katrina.  Bush got a big bounce from winning the 2004 election, but squandered whatever confidence he recovered.  He never climbs above 50% again, continuing his steady decline.

    Bush Administration officials could be considered more accurate in the sense that Hurricane Katrina effectively destroyed so much confidence in the president that the Democrats were able to decisively seize power in 2006 and 2008.  

    Florida (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by denise k on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:05:52 AM EST
    I think he lost all credibility with the Florida recount.  That was a travesty from the beginning and anyone who was paying attention could have seen that.  The first travesty.

    As for the impact of Katrina -- I think it was the "straw that broke the camel's back".  After Katrina, it was impossible to believe anything he said, because he was caught blatantly lying.  He lost control of the message irretrievability.  If Katrina had not happened I am not sure that the Iraq lies would have come so believably to the forefront of the American consciousness, but after Katrina Bush had no way to counter them with his propaganda.  No one believed him any more.

    Right, Bush had problems before he took office (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:53:08 AM EST
    *Bush lost the popular vote to Gore by more than a half million votes, so he didn't have the majority of people behind him from the outset.

    *He lost even more legitimacy when the SCOTUS stopped the in-progress Florida recount and proclaimed him the winner.

    *During his inauguration, thousands of protesters lined the parade route and pelted the motorcade with eggs, tomatoes and other debris. He was thus unable to get out and walk the last few hundred yards(?) up to the inaugural site as tradition dictates.

    *Bush was destined for a lack luster, one-term Presidency until 9/11 and Iraq turned him into a "war-time President". At that point it was considered treasonous not to support him and his entire agenda.

    *The news of Abu Ghraib broke, I believe, in April of 2004. But the story didn't get sufficient traction to totally derail his re-election several months later.

    *Katrina was, indeed, "the straw that broke the camel's back" (08/29/05). However, Katrina was a domestic disaster: big, but small compared to the Iraq War. US news outlets soon ignored Katrina and would have preferred to ignore the war as well. But, the world press kept a critical eye on the war, and the sheer duration of the story kept it alive at home.
     

    Parent

    The Patriot Act, (none / 0) (#37)
    by MoveThatBus on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 09:00:40 AM EST
    Unwarranted surveillance, demand of search engine companies turning over all information, the long fight to get the minimum wage raised, the quick $4700 raise for congress, the long fight to get unemployment benefits extended, the no bid contracts for Haliburton, the award to Airbus for US Military planes, the 9/11 Commission, the slow/minimal response to the tsunami, Mission Accomplished and the Decider, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, Brownie, Gonzalez, Libbey, Ashcroft, Ridge, the Department of Homeland Security, and the list goes on and on.

    Parent
    I agree completely. I felt that Bush (none / 0) (#55)
    by hairspray on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 10:11:45 PM EST
    was a fraud from the get-go, and that he was itching to get us into the mid=east.  All of the time he kept saying we would not attack Iraq unless there was justification was nonsense.  The reports at the time were that we were amassing a huge force in Kuwait and cooler heads like the Prince of Jordan and others were cautioning a first strike.  It was clear that he was going to attack.  It couldn't have been any clearer. So those that distrusted him, began to hate him after Iraq.  But others who believed the 9/11 fear mongering didn't stop trusting him until after Katrina.  What really tipped the election to Obama, however, was the economic meltdown.  I still cannot believe that McCain won almost 47% of the vote after all that Bush/Cheney have done.

    Parent
    Katrina (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:09:55 AM EST
    Eventually people began to expect that Bush would not do anything except f** up or go on vacation.  Katrina cemented that impression.  

    Images. (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by hitchhiker on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 01:15:09 AM EST
    In particular, it was 3 or 4 images from Katrina.

    One was Bush fooling around with that guitar.

    One was him doing his flyover.

    One was him getting that weird taped briefing, which they stupidly showed us after the fact to "prove" that he was on it from the beginning.  He didn't ask a single question.

    And finally, there was him standing up with Brownie, daring to congratulate him on his heckuva job.

    Those images got stamped into the national consciousness right next to the ones of the people sitting on their rooftops or wading through water up to their chests or sitting abandoned in wheelchairs outside the superdome.

    The real question is how he dared to go out in public at all after that.

    Images is correct (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:11:27 AM EST
    In Viet Nam we saw the body bags everynight along with the xxxx Americans dead and xxxxxxx Viet Cong dead tally for the day.Every night there was Walter showing you pictures. Everynight there were pictures of protestors and then Kent State. Killing our own over freedom of speach.

    Flash forward to the last eight years. Images again but no body bags everynight.People finally came to the realization that Iraq was a BIG mistake when they found out they had been duped. I was one of those "This is not a good idea" before it started. I think people were thinking it would be like the Persian Gulf Conflict. In, out, no costs of lives or money. The oil would pay for it. Right. Iraq is what will be remembered when you say GWBush. These ex-aides believe Katrina was the turning point. That may be correct as popularity steadily declined after that. The images of the stranded Americans in NO were haunting and the images of Prez Doofus with the guitar were reality. POTUS fiddled while New Orleans drowned.    

    Parent

    A long, slow drip (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Frank Burns on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 01:30:27 AM EST
    If only the revelations of Abu Ghraib and the lack of WMDs were the key: then Bush should not have been re-elected (and perhaps he wasn't, if the allegations in Ohio are true). But there was a slow drip of stories in 2005, culminating in Katrina, that finally set most of the American people straight. The effort to privatize Social Security. The Terry Schiavo travesty. And then, on his vacation, the quixotic effort of Cindy Sheehan, who in any previous year would have been roundly dismissed, but at that time was able to personify what more and more people were coming to understand about what a disaster we had undertaken in Iraq. At the end of her vigil, the levees in New Orleans, and the proverbial camel's back, broke.

    True, true, true (none / 0) (#43)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 09:50:04 AM EST
    So many reasons, so little time and space.

    I'm wondering if anyone can name something he did that was for the good of the country.

    While he is ultimately responsible, he really didn't do this alone and our democratic congress needs to be watched very carefully for the next two years.


    Parent

    Got to say Katrina ... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by FreakyBeaky on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 02:32:20 AM EST
    ... although it was a culmination of factors and events that need not be belabored here.  Katrina was the tipping point for Bush.

    The Wall Street meltdown was the tipping point for the Republicans ... at least temporarily.

    Sadly, I think Iraq wold never by itself have been Bush's undoing.  It is a very ignorable war, unfortunately; thousands of miles away, no draft, relatively modest casualties suffered by a very small portion of the population ... all you have to do is change channels. :(

    There were so many disasters (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by kenosharick on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 07:00:43 AM EST
    out of this presidency that it wil easily go down as worst in American history.  Iraq and Katrina will stand out- and the flyover picture symbolizes this administration best.

    I can't say. (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 07:22:06 AM EST
    I'm not sure that if Americans were making money that they would care either about Iraq or Katrina.

    The press continues to neutralize both issues.

    Iraq has been spun as a potential pro-US democracy in the mid-East - so it was worth it.

    Katrina - I just don't think the media was that upset about it.
    Remember the emphasis on looting? The people forced into shelters were characterized as thugs and worse.

    And look at the Democrats.
    Kerry was given, or bought, the nomination of the Democratic party in 2004. He didn't condemn Bush for misleading us. He tapped danced around the war saying idiotic garbage like, "help is on the way". He expressed no anger at Bush and his administration.

    Then, in 2006 - Lieberman received the support of the two stars of the democratic party when Lamont bravely offered a principled challenge to this oaf. Obama swept up to Connecticut and lauded him. Clinton was also a "good democrat". War? What war?

    And, of course, in 2006, when the democrats took control of both houses of congress, everyone knew it was about Iraq, Iraq and Iraq. And they did nothing. In fact, they allowed an escalation to take place with which our Pres-Elect is truly infatuated.

    So - no. I don't think that Bush's lies about Iraq were his undoing. His rhetoric and spin has been accepted as reality by everyone. The few who want to hold him to account, like Feingold and Kucinich and Nader, are marginalized or ridiculed by the democrats and ignored by the media.

    And with Katrina, I think this has satisfactorily been spun as an error in judgement, or a forgivable lack of planning. I was listening, but I heard not a peep from Obama during the campaign about the plight of black and white people whose lives have been devastated by this disaster. No calls for a Marshall Plan for New Orleans.

    So finally, I think it is the economy.
    People don't have the money that they once had.
    They can feel that.
    They haven't been allowed to feel the horrors of Iraq or Katrina.

    Excellent point (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:36:39 AM EST
    I tend to agree.

    For example, this election was shaping up to be a lot closer until the economic meltdown in September.

    Until Bush's disastrous policies started to effect people across the board, in their pocketbooks, they were a lot closer to electing McCain for  Bush's third term.

    Parent

    It was his deception of the American People (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Saul on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 07:57:22 AM EST
    I never trusted Bush.  Maybe I was able to see through him like others could way before we learned that there were no WMD.  

    He and the necons took advantage of 911 and used it to push their Iraq agenda.  A plan to hit Iraq was an old plan that was on the books since the Clinton administration. The necoons tried to sell it to Clinton but he never took the bait.  I believe it was put on the books  by the Jewish neocons in the Bush administration to protect Israel.  Guys like Wolfowitz, Feith and Pearle were the main pushers who wanted to hit Iraq. Wolfowitz was the first person in the Bush administration to say we must hit Iraq because they are responsible.  It was a bag of goods sold to Bush and Bush who knew better could not resist, since Sadamm tried to kill his father after the first Gulf War.  The neocons and the Bush administration knew the American people were angry and wanted someone to pay for this.  It was easy to sell the attack in Iraq since  the people were in a lynch mob mentality and wanted anyone they could find to pay for this atrocity plus it was a midterm election year and any U.S. rep or senator running at that time would look very unpatriotic and maybe their political life was on the line.  

    It was an easy sell job.

    A great documentary showing this very deception is a PBS Frontline segment called the The Dark Side.
    A must view IMO

    Maybe in New York (none / 0) (#29)
    by MoveThatBus on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:15:24 AM EST
    but...

    The neocons and the Bush administration knew the American people were angry and wanted someone to pay for this.  It was easy to sell the attack in Iraq since  the people were in a lynch mob mentality and wanted anyone they could find to pay for this atrocity plus it was a midterm election year and any U.S. rep or senator running at that time would look very unpatriotic and maybe their political life was on the line.  

    emphasis added.

    I think that's really over-stating things. Bush and his team may have been trying to convince people there was a mood, but anger and lynch mob are hard to push with the huge numbers of people who went out to protest the potential of an Iraq invasion. I sure don't remember mobs of Americans demanding we attack someone/anyone to get revenge on 9/11.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#34)
    by Saul on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:35:50 AM EST
    Right after 911 there was very little protest by the American people to stop the president from hitting Iraq.

    You do not need to take my word for it, that is why I say to view the PBS Frontline documentary called the Dark Side.

    Parent

    He lost me at the 2000 election (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by MoveThatBus on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:01:56 AM EST
    Or, maybe during the campaign leading up to the election. Possibly years earlier since I remembered his father's administration and W didn't strike me as a polished version of his dad.

    His personal behavior on 9/11, the constant changing and elevating reasons for why we needed to attack Iraq (none of them believable), and his choices for VP and his cabinet were the foundation of what we could expect. I can't think of anything the history books can say about what he did good for the country.

    What is his current approval rating? I've heard 1%, but not a real reliable source.


    Katrina did it (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:15:59 AM EST
    Katrina was the first time (and one of the few times since) that the media finally held the Bush administration accountable. It brought to light a consistant level of incompetence displayed by Bush and his cabinet.

    I'm not convinced that Iraq hurt him that much here. After 9/11 the country was more than willing to lash out at anyone. (It definitely has done a number on us internationally). Having a volunteer military, using mercenaries and controling the media Bush has been able to shield Iraq from public scrutiny.

    In regard to torture and Abu Graib, the Republican's have done a great job in selling the merit of torture to the American people. Even some of my more liberal friends have bought into the "24 Hour" scenario.

    I think that Iraq was the beginning, (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:22:20 AM EST
    but Katrina was the beginning of the end.

    Iraq was an "over there" thing; yes, we saw the pictures and the death toll, and soon enough, we learned that it was all cooked up, planned, engineered, and we felt anger and betrayal, but it was still out-of-sight enough for most people that it could be ignored; we were too busy shopping and taking the equity out of our homes and watching our retirement plans grow.

    Katrina, however, was a different story.  That was here, on our own turf, and I think a light went on for a lot of people and allowed them to take the true measure of the president - they looked at the totality of the Bush presidency - that iconic photo of him observing the devastation from Air Force 1 pretty much summing it up - and found it severely wanting.

    People began to ask themselves if the incompetence of handling Katrina was an aberration, or was it possible the same failures were happening in all quarters?  Even people who weren't political junkies or newshounds couldn't help but see and hear about Katrina, and while it was easy enough to distance themselves from Iraq, it was impossible to do the same with Katrina.  
    With Katrina, people saw an indifferent, distanced president, who seemed incapable of recognizing incompetence and inefficiency, and that was enough to send his approval ratings south for good.


    Don't believe the hype (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by ding7777 on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:33:06 AM EST
    Bush is still effective politically.

    In the last 6 months, Bush got his version of FISA and the no-strings attached $700 billion TARP funding.

     

    True (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:36:21 AM EST
    And in addition he has succeeded in destroying the economy and raising the national debt so that all those "liberal" social programs can't be implemented.

    Parent
    And, he did that with full support of the (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by MoveThatBus on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 09:06:05 AM EST
    liberal congress.

    Parent
    What a guy! (none / 0) (#39)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 09:17:40 AM EST
    I only hope that the next time I hear from him it will be in a court room answering for all his criminal acts.

    (Iknow it's just a fantasy, but then with the shape he's left the world in, a little fantasy doesn't hurt).

    Parent

    The Terri Shiavo Debacle and Katrina (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Moishele on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 09:24:16 AM EST
    In the Shiavo fiasco the American people learned how little sanctity Bush held there was to marriage, and just how far Bush would go to have the government make very personal choices for us. Then came Katrina and we saw how very little Bush cared for 'life' after all. It was a one-two punch.

    Bush is the answer to the question: (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by ThatOneVoter on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 10:20:29 AM EST
    when did you lose faith in the American people.
    He was a disaster and a disgrace from day one---every sentient being recognized that.

    But the question was (none / 0) (#49)
    by Cream City on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 11:23:42 AM EST
    when did he lose those who voted for him.

    So the question becomes, in your rewriting, whether those who voted for him were sentient beings.  Hmm, is it grounds to challenge election results based on that?  Can the fancy new voting machines also measure and correlate votes cast with brain waves -- or the lack thereof?

    Parent

    I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 10:47:53 AM EST
    I disagree with the assertion that he isn't as bad as the left has painted him. Name one aspect of governing that is better today than it was 8 yrs ago.

    There's no amount of PR or rewriting of history that will be able to overcome the fact that there are very few American's that can say that the quality of their lives have been improved do to the actions of the Bush administration.

    Never had credibility... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 02:47:41 PM EST
    with anyone outside of hardcore Republican loyalists...his limo was getting egged at his first inauguration, and he's leaving getting shoes thrown at him.

    The approval ratings immediately following 9/11 would have been the same for any president, that was just blind patriotism in the face of an epic disaster...that had nothing to do with the Bush the man, only the office.  A mannequin would have had 90% after 9/11.

    Iraq is the only answer to this question (none / 0) (#41)
    by Slado on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 09:25:34 AM EST
    If Bush had done in Iraq what he is doing now his presidency would have been totally different.  

    History may judge him differently but that is impossible to know.   Like Truman before him he is being asked to not let the door hit him in the A$$ on the way out.   He mismanaged the war in Iraq for 2-3 years and we could have been where we are now in 2005 but hindsight is 20/20.  

    It was a political gameble that won him re-election but cost him his legacy in the short term.

    Katrina is window dressing and a PR fiasco created because the stink of Iraq rang so true in the late summer of 2005.   If he had been winning the war in 2005 it would have been harder to make the incompetent comander in cheif stick but with the mess in Iraq it wasn't that hard and the media was annoyed at itself for feeling conned on Iraq and was out for blood and Bush's inept PR on Katrina was a perfect storm that effectively ended his days of 50plus popularity.

    IT's been a slow burn and the current success in Iraq is falling on deaf ears as it probably should.

    History may judge the war in Iraq a succes 20 years from now and may see his economic intervention in the waning days as an important moment that prevented complete collapse but we won't know that for a long time.

    In the short term he is not the fiend made out by the left but he is also no Reagan.

    Hopefully history will be kind to him but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


    He is no Reagan??????????????? (none / 0) (#53)
    by Blowback on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 08:14:59 PM EST
    what the H does this mean?????????????

    Parent
    Iraq is the Original Sin... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 10:21:27 AM EST
    ... but I do think Katrina was the point where most of the American people became un-persuadable. War's can always turn around, as Iraq partially has, and although people still wouldn't have been happy about the reasons for going in, nor for how the war was conducted and what it cost, they'd probably be grudgingly giving Bush some credit now if he hadn't thoroughly lost them over other issues, and Katrina was probably the biggest and least fixable of those.

    Katrina was the perfect. (none / 0) (#50)
    by Fabian on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:02:03 PM EST
    Political Storm.

    First was Bush's very public apparent lack of concern prior to Katrina.  
    I don't remember anyone downplaying the threat, especially when the predictions showed a direct hit on NOLA.

    Second was lack of response.

    Everyone knows the narrative.  First there's the chaos of evacuation, then the hunkering down, then the storm hits and afterward the cavalry comes rushing to the rescue, plucking people from rooftops and otherwise helping people affected by the storm.

    Only there was no cavalry charge.  The storm ended, the media showed pictures of people in need....and no cavalry.  Another day, more suffering and no help.  Surely the National Guard and FEMA are on their way - aren't they?

    Third was lack of leadership.

    With all eyes on The President, he did a flyover and a photo op and a blatant CYA with his "Heckuva Job Brown" when the public wanted heads to roll.  Bush may have gotten away with the first two if he had come down like a sledgehammer on Brown.  People wanted action, any action.

    (Bush never seemed to "get" that he could save himself by tossing his cronies to the wolves.  Even if they ratted on him, he could use the "disgruntled employee" narrative.  Certainly Brown and Rumsfeld were two examples of missed opportunities.)

    Parent

    I don't really care about what the people who (none / 0) (#52)
    by Blowback on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 06:14:44 PM EST
    voted for Bush think, or when they lost "their trust." I know some of those fools and they still trust him so how can you care what these idiots think?

    I know when I booed Bush at the US Capitol on January 20, 2001 that I did not trust him and I expected very bad things to soon happen.

    He did not disappoint me in that regard.

    ......in answer to:

     "When do you think Bush irreparably lost the trust of even those Americans who voted for him?"

    Lost Trust! When ya ain't got nothin', ... (none / 0) (#59)
    by mrmojeffrisin on Sat Jan 03, 2009 at 05:43:15 PM EST
    Lost Trust! When ya ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose.

    If only the past eight years would become invisible 17 days from now and there'd be nothin' left to conceal.

    Parent

    incompetence/corruption (none / 0) (#54)
    by diogenes on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 09:24:58 PM EST
    Thus, Katrina and the pre-2006 corruption as well as Rumsfeld.  If there were no corruption, no Katrina, and no Rumsfeld (i.e. doing the surge in 2005), no one would much care about Iraq.

    Bush's Undoing: the Elite's Revenge (none / 0) (#57)
    by highonsmog on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 06:05:43 AM EST
    Great topic.  I agree with the first comment, but think it needs much more elaboration (and I like my voice:-) .

    The Bush Admin proved the conspiracy theorists were right all along; they always contended that the elites are in power, at all times, no matter whether the structure is democratic or not -- such is irrelevant.  

    It is sad, but social constructivist's won the day, when explaining Bush's defeat!  It makes us seem powerless, but it offers the better explanation.

    We are a society controlled by the media (NBC=GE, FOX=Murdoch, ABC=Disney etc.), and Bush was brought down by the very media (note, it was NBC that first called the Iraqi domestic events a "civil war," not the govt.)

    We all remember how (unfairly, need I say) the media treated Hillary, literally making a joke of the whole debate process? (Watch the SNL mock debate clips and then the actual ones!)

    In sum, the elite put the Republican Party into office, and decided to rid themselves of them for their own agendas, thus instigating the masses into carefully designed takeover.  We appeared to care, and voted, but (as many others commented) our vote never mattered to elite in 2000, even when the vote shook things up.