The Southern Senators (R-Japan)

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Other Politics
Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 10:54:13 AM EST
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Bob Stein:

In killing the Detroit bailout yesterday, Republican Leader Mitch McConnell of Toyota joined his colleagues Dick Shelby of Honda and Bob Corker of Nissan in upholding a basic American principle: Blame all economic woes on greedy unions. . . . [This]is a perfect example of what the great journalist Murray Kempton described half a century ago [-] “There is a certain kind of politician who stays safely in the hills during a battle and then comes down and shoots the wounded.”

More...

McConnell and his coterie of Southern senators, including Louisiana's David Vitter and South Carolina's Jim DeMint, all represent states with foreign-owned, non-union plants that would benefit from the disappearance of the American auto industry, no matter how much havoc it would wreak on the country as a whole. . . . The rest of the politicians in Congress and the White House will no doubt find a way to throw General Motors and Chrysler a temporary life-preserver, but certainly without the help of the union-busting senators from Japan.

Indeed.

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The Southern Senators (R-Japan) | 107 comments (107 topical)

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I must point (5.00 / 2) (#87)
by Wile ECoyote on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 05:56:38 PM EST

out there were enough republican senators voted yes, that if Reid could have rounded up all the Democrat senators, it would have passed.

Short sighted and stupid (4.90 / 10) (#1)
by andgarden on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 10:58:49 AM EST

on their part.

Even the foreign builders apparently rely on suppliers that would go out of business if the big three go down.

It's nihilistic (5.00 / 3) (#10)
by gyrfalcon on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:30:27 AM EST

Or would be, except that it's becoming clear they're playing chicken with the Bush administration, trying to force it to come up with the $$ out of TARP funds instead of Congress stepping up.

What I will never understand is why Reid keeps caving to the filibuster threat. LET THEM FILIBUSTER, for crying out loud!

Parent

This mantra doesn't make any sense to me (3.50 / 2) (#11)
by andgarden on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:34:01 AM EST

"let the filibuster."

There weren't 60 votes for cloture on the motion to proceed. That is a modern filibuster.

Parent

Modern filibuster (5.00 / 4) (#18)
by sj on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:59:57 AM EST

That 60 votes business drives me to distraction.

Make them filibuster, for crying out loud!! This modern filibuster gimme that you speak of is us. Rolling over again.

Parent

Yes! Let them filibuster until (5.00 / 2) (#58)
by alsace on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:31:23 PM EST

the new Congress convenes. Why should these clowns have a paid Christmas vacation when fewer and fewer Americans even have a paying job?

Parent

meh (2.20 / 5) (#21)
by andgarden on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:05:15 PM EST

The 60 vote requirement wasn't invented last week.

Do you know how many votes it used to take for cloture? 67.

They're not going to change their procedure just because you throw a hissy fit.

Parent

Not invented last week (5.00 / 4) (#33)
by sj on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:26:01 PM EST

Hissy fit? I'm supposed to do what? Just lay back and take it? All I have is my voice and my vote. I'll use both, thank you.

Oh, and my money. Which I'll withhold.

And I don't give two hoots about 67 vs 60 vs whatever. If they want to obstruct, there should be a cost. The obstruction should be visible and obvious. Fine. Let them invoke the filibuster. I have no quarrel with that. But having done so, make them have the filibuster.

Parent

Whatever (1.25 / 4) (#36)
by andgarden on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:27:00 PM EST

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Parent

: Accountability (5.00 / 1) (#41)
by mmc9431 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:51:55 PM EST

I still would have preferred each Senator to be on record so when everything crashes we'll know who pushed us off the cliff.

Parent
: meh (none / 0) (#37)
by sj on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:29:33 PM EST

to quote your eloquent self.

Parent

I didn't see the final count on this one (5.00 / 3) (#25)
by ruffian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:18:48 PM EST

Would the bill have passed with over 50 votes if it had been allowed to proceed to a vote? If so, then I believe that if Senators want to obstruct a vote, they should have to do it the old fashioned way and talk for a while. Merely signalling their intention to filibuster, and then calling for a cloture vote, gives the public the wrong impression of how much support there is for a bill. Especially when the press palys along and says it takes 60 votes to pass a bill in the Senate.

Parent

Yes, final count (5.00 / 1) (#63)
by gyrfalcon on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 02:12:02 PM EST

was 52 for, 37 or something against. I believe almost all Dems (maybe excepting that McCaskill creature) voted for, plus a handful of GOPers. No idea who didn't vote. I haven't seen a rundown on the vote, just the total.

Parent

Just scroll on down to (none / 0) (#64)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 02:17:19 PM EST

post #42.

Parent

: Thanks! (none / 0) (#78)
by gyrfalcon on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 04:08:09 PM EST

Parent

McCaskill (none / 0) (#80)
by cal1942 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 04:55:14 PM EST

is listed as a yes (favoring the bridge loan) vote.

Parent

Frankly, what you believe they should have (none / 0) (#26)
by andgarden on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:20:25 PM EST

to do is different from the rules and precedents of the body.

Parent

Whenever I hear "filibuster", (5.00 / 3) (#29)
by steviez314 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:24:09 PM EST

I think of Jimmy Stewart as Jefferson Smith in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.

Make the filibuster mean something, make them talk. It will give us an idea of who REALLY means what they say and are willing to be at least a bit discomfitted to do something about it.

Parent

There's the silly mantra again (1.66 / 3) (#34)
by andgarden on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:26:35 PM EST

Let me throw in that I want a pony, a BMW, and a billion bucks.

Parent

You're just being (5.00 / 4) (#62)
by gyrfalcon on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 02:09:57 PM EST

pissy, Andgarden, to no apparent purpose. If you have a point to make about all this, please do make it. Substituting insults for actual points is, um, counterproductive.

Parent

: Well (5.00 / 1) (#70)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:14:50 PM EST

andgarden is right and the reality is it really is up to you folks to learn about it.
He and i have had mamy wars with misinformed persons on this issue in many venues.
I personally have no patience for explaining it all over again.

Parent

I know, it's just a tactical preference on my part (5.00 / 4) (#31)
by ruffian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:24:48 PM EST

I'm not saying they are violating any rules or precedents. Just saying that the Dems give up a few PR points everytime they don't make the Republican obstruction clear. They are counting on people listening to Harry Reid's statements after the fact, when in reality people listen to their CNN reporter telling people that the Dems just couldn't muster the 60 votes it takes to get a bill passed.

Parent

I am confused by you, Andgarden (none / 0) (#65)
by caseyOR on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 02:53:13 PM EST

What is it that only you seem to understand about the filibuster rules? Would you please explain your understanding of how the filibuster works in the Senate?

My understanding is that any senator can filibuster anything, and it takes 60 votes to end a filibuster. is this not right?

Parent

: With very few exceptions, (none / 0) (#69)
by andgarden on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:13:53 PM EST

just about everything that happens in the Senate is subject to unlimited debate. The only way to limit debate is to round up 3/5 of sitting and sworn Senators to vote to do so. That's why the first step usually isn't to vote for cloture on the bill (that's typically waived by unanimous consent, actually), but to hold a vote for cloture on the Motion to Proceed.

Parent

Exactly so. (none / 0) (#2)
by desertswine on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:01:13 AM EST

Parent

The South secedes from the Union again (4.87 / 8) (#4)
by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:09:26 AM EST

for its own monetary gain again. Oh yeah, and the South secedes from Unions in order to continue its tradition of slavery in whatever forms it can. This time though we ain't growin cotton as cheaply as possible.

The South is welcome to secede (5.00 / 2) (#7)
by Fabian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:14:36 AM EST

I believe the North pays more to the feds than it receives and the South pays less than it receives. A Southern secession would be a net gain for the remaining states. Plus the average level of education of the remaining states would bounce up nicely.

(Just in jest.)

Parent

Yes, but "many a truth said in jest" (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by easilydistracted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:53:11 AM EST

Parent

Mississippi and Louisiana (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by Fabian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:58:59 AM EST

are now on my list of states to avoid. The education rate there is just appalling. Coincidentally, the poverty rate is also appalling. It's almost as if the governments there prefer to keep their citizens ignorant and poor.

I'm sure it is all in my imagination.

Parent

It isn't just your imagination. (none / 0) (#22)
by easilydistracted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:09:48 PM EST

Hell, they've been on my blackball list for some years now. Longest four hours of my life (and scariest too): traversing I-10 through MS and LA. BTW, you know we're gonna get some "hate" blog.

Parent

: About Fla and the South (none / 0) (#101)
by Amiss on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:52:15 PM EST

Someone had on one of the news shows a map of the states that would be hardest hit by this, Florida is one other than Michigan. Florida is already destitute, we hadda Pay for ole Cristy to get married tonite :P.

Parent

Sh*t... (none / 0) (#24)
by kdog on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:14:54 PM EST

I wanna plant a flag on my lawn and secede at this point.

Parent

Wasn't there a Family Guy epsisode (none / 0) (#30)
by easilydistracted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:24:36 PM EST

along these lines? Or maybe the Simpsons?

Parent

Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#43)
by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:59:13 PM EST

...it was from Family Guy. Peter formed the nation of "Petoria".

Parent

: I thought so. (none / 0) (#45)
by easilydistracted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:03:05 PM EST

Family Guy -- Great program! A bit off topic here (sorry BTD) but it had to be said.

Parent

UAW responds (4.86 / 7) (#19)
by ding7777 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:00:43 PM EST

'We are 10% of the labor costs. If [the UAW] worked for nothing, it wouldn't help [the auto industry] limp into January.'
-- Ron Gettelfinger, United Auto Workers

Won't see that on CNN (5.00 / 5) (#40)
by ricosuave on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:48:35 PM EST

I have seen Gettelfinger once or twice during the life of this news story, but heavens forbid that we see union members or leaders interviewed regularly when we are talking about saving the jobs of union members.

But good for him for pointing that out. Are we really going to sit around and let the republicans argue that labor costs are the problem when competing with Germany and Japan? Are these senators asking for socialized healthcare and bigger social safety nets to help our companies level the playing field?

Parent

: Wrong. It was all over CNN (none / 0) (#66)
by oldpro on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 02:53:25 PM EST

both the story and clips of Ron G's remarks. I first saw it live this morning when they covered the union's press conference extensively...then repeats throughout the morning...

Parent

I just read the Corker saga (4.83 / 6) (#9)
by Fabian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:27:16 AM EST

at Digby.

Hello, Obama? Remember that dream/fantasy of bi-post-partisanship?

Welcome to reality.

New Senate (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by MKS on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:44:20 AM EST

will be better and may even contain Franken (given today's good news on that front.)

We won't need the Southern Senators (R-Japan--what a hoot that phrase is) and can put all kinds of pressure on Specter and other non-Southern GOPers to get an additional vote or two.

Parent

...in theory. n/t (none / 0) (#15)
by Fabian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:55:54 AM EST

Parent

Today's good news? (none / 0) (#16)
by sj on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:56:33 AM EST

I went looking for info re Franken/Coleman and my quick search didn't turn up anything from today...

Parent

The MN Canvassing Board (5.00 / 1) (#23)
by WS on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:14:36 PM EST

voted to count the mistakenly rejected absentee ballots.

Parent

I dipped my toe in the TPM lake (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by ruffian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:20:42 PM EST

and found it there.

Parent

: Did your toe fall off though? :) (none / 0) (#88)
by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 06:03:11 PM EST

Parent

The Canvassing Board (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by MKS on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:21:04 PM EST

which is comprised of Republicans, Democrats and Independents unanimously voted this morning to require the counties to count the questioned absentee ballots (some 1600 according to one count) that were rejected on technical grounds. The previous absentees have heavily favored Franken.

The Canvassing Board also ruled that the missing votes from the lost file will be counted according to the election night tally--that is a plus some 40 odd votes for Franken.

Franken had estimated that with the "missing votes" but not including the 1600 (or so) absentee votes, he was up by the comically small margin of 4 votes.....which includes the initial rulings at the county level of the numerous ballots challenged by both campaigns (largely on frivolous grounds) on the assumption the rulings would not change when reviewed up the food chain.

Thus, today's Canvassing Borad rulings probably mean Franken wins....

TPM has all.

Parent

The Tally. (4.66 / 3) (#42)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:55:07 PM EST

Lotsa non-southern nays. And some Dem nays as well, northern and southern, along with some Dem no-shows which are effectively nays.

Lincoln (D-AR) voted nay, for example, but then again his southern state always seems to be on the short-list for new Toyota plants.

Biden forgot to vote, apparently.

Isn't Obama still a Senator? He's not even on the list...

YEAs --52
Akaka (D-HI)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Bond (R-MO)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Brownback (R-KS)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Collins (R-ME)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Johnson (D-SD)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (ID-CT)
Lugar (R-IN)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)
Webb (D-VA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
NAYs --35
Allard (R-CO)
Barrasso (R-WY)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burr (R-NC)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Corker (R-TN)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Reid (D-NV)
Roberts (R-KS)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Tester (D-MT)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Wicker (R-MS)
Not Voting - 12
Alexander (R-TN)
Biden (D-DE)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Graham (R-SC)
Hagel (R-NE)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Smith (R-OR)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Wyden (D-OR)

Obama (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by CST on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:59:25 PM EST

Resigned his senate seat already. Not sure about Biden.

Parent

Thanks, that explains it. (none / 0) (#47)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:03:52 PM EST

There's a seantor from ID named "Crapo." (giggle)

Anyway...

Grouped by Home State
Alabama: Sessions (R-AL), Nay Shelby (R-AL), Nay
Alaska: Murkowski (R-AK), Nay Stevens (R-AK), Not Voting
Arizona: Kyl (R-AZ), Nay McCain (R-AZ), Nay
Arkansas: Lincoln (D-AR), Nay Pryor (D-AR), Yea
California: Boxer (D-CA), Yea Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Colorado: Allard (R-CO), Nay Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Connecticut: Dodd (D-CT), Yea Lieberman (ID-CT), Yea
Delaware: Biden (D-DE), Not Voting Carper (D-DE), Yea
Florida: Martinez (R-FL), Nay Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Georgia: Chambliss (R-GA), Nay Isakson (R-GA), Nay
Hawaii: Akaka (D-HI), Yea Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Idaho: Craig (R-ID), Not Voting Crapo (R-ID), Nay
Illinois: Durbin (D-IL), Yea
Indiana: Bayh (D-IN), Yea Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Iowa: Grassley (R-IA), Nay Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Kansas: Brownback (R-KS), Yea Roberts (R-KS), Nay
Kentucky: Bunning (R-KY), Nay McConnell (R-KY), Nay
Louisiana: Landrieu (D-LA), Yea Vitter (R-LA), Nay
Maine: Collins (R-ME), Yea Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Maryland: Cardin (D-MD), Yea Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Massachusetts: Kennedy (D-MA), Not Voting Kerry (D-MA), Not Voting
Michigan: Levin (D-MI), Yea Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Minnesota: Coleman (R-MN), Nay Klobuchar (D-MN), Yea
Mississippi: Cochran (R-MS), Nay Wicker (R-MS), Nay
Missouri: Bond (R-MO), Yea McCaskill (D-MO), Yea
Montana: Baucus (D-MT), Nay Tester (D-MT), Nay
Nebraska: Hagel (R-NE), Not Voting Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nevada: Ensign (R-NV), Nay Reid (D-NV), Nay
New Hampshire: Gregg (R-NH), Nay Sununu (R-NH), Not Voting
New Jersey: Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea Menendez (D-NJ), Yea
New Mexico: Bingaman (D-NM), Yea Domenici (R-NM), Yea
New York: Clinton (D-NY), Yea Schumer (D-NY), Yea
North Carolina: Burr (R-NC), Nay Dole (R-NC), Yea
North Dakota: Conrad (D-ND), Yea Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Ohio: Brown (D-OH), Yea Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Oklahoma: Coburn (R-OK), Nay Inhofe (R-OK), Nay
Oregon: Smith (R-OR), Not Voting Wyden (D-OR), Not Voting
Pennsylvania: Casey (D-PA), Yea Specter (R-PA), Yea
Rhode Island: Reed (D-RI), Yea Whitehouse (D-RI), Yea
South Carolina: DeMint (R-SC), Nay Graham (R-SC), Not Voting
South Dakota: Johnson (D-SD), Yea Thune (R-SD), Nay
Tennessee: Alexander (R-TN), Not Voting Corker (R-TN), Nay
Texas: Cornyn (R-TX), Not Voting Hutchison (R-TX), Nay
Utah: Bennett (R-UT), Nay Hatch (R-UT), Nay
Vermont: Leahy (D-VT), Yea Sanders (I-VT), Yea
Virginia: Warner (R-VA), Yea Webb (D-VA), Yea
Washington: Cantwell (D-WA), Yea Murray (D-WA), Yea
West Virginia: Byrd (D-WV), Yea Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Wisconsin: Feingold (D-WI), Yea Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Wyoming: Barrasso (R-WY), Nay Enzi (R-WY), Nay

Parent

Where was Kerry? (none / 0) (#50)
by CST on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:09:52 PM EST

Both my senators missed this vote. Kennedy I understand - health issues. But Kerry? Too busy wind-surfing maybe. He doesn't even have a "cabinet transition" excuse.

Parent

: Abroad, Poland I think n/t (none / 0) (#57)
by Coral on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:29:50 PM EST

Parent

Both Tester and Baucus of MT ,nay? (none / 0) (#73)
by hairspray on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:29:54 PM EST

Parent

we interviewed crapo's brother (none / 0) (#86)
by sallywally on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 05:45:34 PM EST

for dean of our med school in the mid-90s when bernadine healy ended up in the job. it's crAYpo .....lol.

Parent

I believe Biden did as well. (none / 0) (#102)
by Amiss on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:59:13 PM EST

n/t

Parent

fwiw (none / 0) (#59)
by denise k on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:38:51 PM EST

Lincoln is a "she", not a "he". http://lincoln.senate.gov/

Parent

: Thanks, sorry. (none / 0) (#60)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:42:59 PM EST

Parent

sarcastic unnamed one (none / 0) (#67)
by cal1942 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 02:59:41 PM EST

Many thanks for doing the extra work, saved some of us the time.

So Reid was going to vote nay and after he wanted to attach a provision to give federal judges COLA.

I haven't joined the chorus that regularly attacks Reid. This particular issue and its enormous ramifications for the nation's future has made me change my tune or at least adopt a tune. Harry Reid shouldn't be the majority leader. The majority leader should be someone intested in working to build the nation's strength, to build on what we have. Willingness to risk losing a vital component of our already dwindling manufacturing base is nothing less than crass irresponsibility.

Parent

Reid's nay is procedural (none / 0) (#68)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:11:33 PM EST

It relates to Senate rules, not how he would have voted if he was the 60th vote.

You are misinformed on this.

Parent

: OK (none / 0) (#81)
by cal1942 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 05:08:08 PM EST

I'm back off Reid's case.

Parent

Listening to corker on Bloomberg for about (4.50 / 2) (#3)
by tigercourse on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:05:42 AM EST

the last hour, I can't tell you how much I wish Ford had beaten him.

I don't think Missouri has much of an automotive industry, but if it does I guess that would be McCaskill's real reason for her ridiculous vote.

It's probably not fair (5.00 / 5) (#5)
by Fabian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:10:42 AM EST

But every time I think of McCaskill, I think of Kos. So every time I'm silently cussing at McCaskill, I'm cussing out Kos right along with her.

Parent

Rumored that seventeen new foreign (5.00 / 3) (#6)
by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:11:16 AM EST

plants are in the hopper for the right to work Southern states. Better check who Missouri is courting.

Parent

: Right to work for less states (5.00 / 8) (#20)
by Molly Bloom on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:03:30 PM EST

is what we used to call em.

Parent

McCaskill (none / 0) (#79)
by cal1942 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 04:19:26 PM EST

was set to vote yes (for the bridge loan).

Parent

War of Southern Aggression (4.50 / 2) (#32)
by denise k on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:24:57 PM EST

Having received my grade school education in "the North", I was shocked to find that the war I had been educated to call the "Civil War" or the "War Between the States" was called the "War of Northern Aggression" by the teachers of the "South" (at least according to my Southern friend). It was a Northern invasion of the South having little to do with slavery and much to do with keeping the South for economic reasons. The resentment of the "South" against the "North" thus has passed down through the generations. Southerners here will certainly correct me if I am wrong.

What we are seeing imo now are the fruits of that resentment -- the "South's" own "War of Aggression". We really need to face the cultural (tribal?) realities that underlie this War if we are ever to get past it, because when I first heard these southern senators talking about this I wanted to mess with them...

Way back when (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by Fabian on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:30:35 PM EST

it was the south's agricultural "workers" versus the north's industrial workers. The north had more, better paid workers compared to the south. It gave them both a legislative (more Representatives) and a financial advantage over the south.

If you look at the south today, not much appears to have changed....

Parent

Thank god... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
by kdog on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:32:47 PM EST

we had better wages and less discrimination up north...it's what brought the blues to Chicago.

We might not have rock-n-roll without it....our greatest gift to the world.

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kdog can you spell (none / 0) (#93)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 07:37:27 PM EST

Elvis?? Memphis? Sun Records?

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Very good Jim, you ole hound dog, but (5.00 / 1) (#95)
by Molly Bloom on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 08:33:22 PM EST

can you say Big Mama Thornton? Or Arthur Big Boy Crudup, well that's all right you ole hound dog, the point is shortly before (there was Sam Philips and Sun Records there were Leonard and Phil Chess and Chess Record and they recorded some great Southern musicians who had moved to Sweet Home Chicago to find work. Folks like McKinley Morganfield and Chester Burnett whose style of music merged with the sounds coming out the Appalachians and gave birth to Rock n Roll. Without these folk that Kdog refers to, Elvis as you know him, would not exist.

And I say this as a fan of all of the aforementioned.

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Yes I am well aware (none / 0) (#103)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 14, 2008 at 12:32:26 AM EST

of where much of rock and roll started...

Do you remember Scotty Moore? Bill Black?

The issue is, of course, Sam Phillips, Elvis, et al managed to make it all a national success rather than the small niche markets.

Oh Moore? He was Elvis' guitar player and the guy Keith Richares said was the world's greatest guitar player... and that's high praise indeed..

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: missing the point (none / 0) (#106)
by Molly Bloom on Sun Dec 14, 2008 at 09:21:24 AM EST

of course, if you were to get the point, you would have to concede the argument - which you will never do.
Sometimes you have to face reality Jim. Difficult as it may be.

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The South makes a poor market (5.00 / 6) (#61)
by esmense on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:51:30 PM EST

I'd be really interested to see who is buying the cars produced by those non-union auto workers in the South. I would bet the national sales pattern for the car industry as a whole (domestic and foreign) is pretty consistent with what we find in our after-market automotive parts business (that caters to the high end automotive collector)-- that sales, by far, are strongest in those more affluent states with a long history of unionizaton and, despite high interest in our products, weakest in the South where even the best working class wages are less likely to provide solid entry to the middle class. Non-union auto workers in the South may be doing better than workers in other industries in the region, but the region still, despite all the reverses experienced by workers in the rust belt and the recent increased prosperity the South has experienced compared to its agricultural past, remains very poor compared to (and a much less profitable market to sell into) those regions of the country where the working class has tradtionally enjoyed more benefit from its labor.

Personally, I think our consumer economy has gone about as far as it can on ever lower wages and ever easier credit. How any major American industry survives the destruction of the American mass consumer market and its middle class is a mystery to me. How small business continues to prosper without the market opportunities created by the success of those larger players is equally a mystery. We manufacture and sell products to a small (although national and even international) but very affluent niche market. I don't worry about losing customers as a result of what is happening in the economy as much as I worry about losing access to materials, suppliers and people with the craft skills I need to produce my products as bigger US industries go under. I don't have a solution, but I know we can't lose big players like the auto makers without tremendously negative consequences for the economy as a whole.

Many seem to enjoy blaming the unions. But, from my perspective as a business owner, the bigger problem, for those of us who hope to make a buck off the American consumer, is a cheap labor strategy that is providing ever diminishing returns.

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: This statement says it all: (5.00 / 2) (#75)
by hairspray on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:38:55 PM EST

Many seem to enjoy blaming the unions. But, from my perspective as a business owner, the bigger problem, for those of us who hope to make a buck off the American consumer, is a cheap labor strategy that is providing ever diminishing returns.

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4 million jobs (4.50 / 2) (#46)
by Jlvngstn on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:03:26 PM EST

The "loan" is sending good money after bad. In order to maintain employment levels the industry needs to sell 15-17 million cars in 2009. Forecasts predict 10-12 million sales for 2009 and I tend to agree with the lower end of that figure.

At 12 million units it is estimated that we will lose 2-4 million jobs in the auto industry next year (not at the big 3, but in the industry in its entirety).

you are going to lose 4 million jobs next year, loan or no loan so does it make sense? If they go through a pre-packaged bankruptcy and can get rid of the crappy union contracts and move retired employees to medicare, their cost per employee drops significantly.

I would like to see a structured, prepackaged bankruptcy. There is nothing anyone can do to create a greater demand for cars in 2009 so the industry is going to lose those jobs any way.

Our representatives should be focusing on what to do with the estimated 2-4 million displaced workers in 2009, and my guess is 14 billion would go a long way in retraining them for other professions or UI benefits or educational loans.

Once we gave the banks the store we opened ourselves up to pandora's box and there is nothing but bad in there.

Ahh, a breath of fresh air. (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:09:46 PM EST

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Moving the retirees to Medicare is (5.00 / 2) (#76)
by hairspray on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:47:54 PM EST

a good idea. In fact, the health care plans of the Democrats this year all proposed a shift to Medicare and the workers would be smart to do that. Medicare with the AARP gap is a pretty good plan from the people I know who have it. Many cities in the US are swimming in debt because of retirement benefits at 90% of the former salary and fee for service health care benefits. These issues need to be addressed, however, destroying the union contracts puts all of the workers at a huge disadvantage, and like the south it causes financial contraction and lowered standards of living for the related industries. Detroit has to figure out how to produce 3-4 million more cars that people WANT to buy.

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ohio's state retirees all go to medicare (none / 0) (#89)
by sallywally on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 06:09:52 PM EST

at 65. i'll get there jan. 1 2010.

but it's all medicare advantage - i.e., privatized. it would be nice if some of that were fixed in the next few years,

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: What is you objection to (none / 0) (#94)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 07:43:13 PM EST

Medicare Advantage?

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Interesting... (none / 0) (#52)
by kdog on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:15:47 PM EST

I think the reason people are reluctantly supporting the bailout/loan/whatever is because they think it will save the jobs.

You've been right on the money about the economic situation since Day 1 J, and have more credibility with me than anybody...if you think the jobs are lost it really makes no sense at all.

If ya can steal 14 billion back from the banks, I guess it might be worth the gamble...but otherwise why prolong the inevitable?

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the argument of stabilization (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by Jlvngstn on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:28:55 PM EST

makes complete sense through March and I agree with it theoretically. If there is a pre-packaged bankruptcy every small business holding invoices with the car mfr's get stiffed and are forced to layoff and cutback, thus accelerating the financial crisis and jobs crisis. I believe we are hedging that a slow but firm recovery at the end of the 2nd quarter which will give the auto companies enough time to "survive" a brutal year with the hopes that 2010 will see an increase in units sold to about 14 million which will make them profitable albeit barely.

I don't agree with the hedge and while as a small business owner who just got stiffed on 90k, it really sucks, but at least I am not holding out hope and spending believing that client is going to pay. We don't need more cars, we need more jobs and extended UI benefits to bridge the bleeding of the layoffs from this year and for those to come in the next 2 quarters.

Either way those who will suffer the most are us ordinary americans, and I for one would love to see a 15 bn parachute for those who are going to be impacted the most....

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: So very true (5.00 / 2) (#71)
by Amiss on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:17:16 PM EST

Either way those who will suffer the most are us ordinary americans, and I for one would love to see a 15 bn parachute for those who are going to be impacted the most....

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Yep, (none / 0) (#54)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:27:36 PM EST

what I never understand is why most everyone forgets that sales are down - hugely - for ALL auto makers, not just the big 3.

Nissan's US sales were down the most last month of any of the major auto-makers, for example.

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If Big Union Concessions (4.50 / 6) (#51)
by bob h on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:12:38 PM EST

are part of any eventual rescue plan, I think it would be fair to insist on disgorgement of the tens of millions of $ in unwarranted bonuses and excess compensation senior managers leached from the Big Three as they drove them into the ditch.

Sounds fair to me (5.00 / 1) (#53)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:19:14 PM EST

although that "ditch" is something every auto maker in the world is in right now, not just the big 3, but I do think the execs ought to bear some of the wage burden as well.

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Yeah... (5.00 / 5) (#56)
by kdog on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:29:23 PM EST

for all the talk about overpaid auto workers, ya never seem to hear that the average Japanese CEO makes 400 grand.

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Actually, the average Japanese exec (5.00 / 2) (#72)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:21:52 PM EST

does make around 400K. It's just that the avg US CEO makes about $18 Million...

Japanese Presidents:
Top 100 67.9% 15,259 35,092 $534,164
Top 500 53.3 11,152 63,183 $420,374

The median 2006 compensation for CEOs at 50 of the largest U.S. companies was $17.8 million, according to a USA TODAY analysis of data from Salary.com's CompAnalyst Executive database.

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Numbers in middle (none / 0) (#82)
by DaleA on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 05:29:42 PM EST

What are they about? Number of employees or what?

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Sorry, I didn't save the link. (none / 0) (#84)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 05:33:19 PM EST

It might have been income taxes and income in yen x 1000.

I'll see if I can find it again...

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: Found it. That was easy. (none / 0) (#85)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 05:37:21 PM EST

Median Tax Liability (x 1000 yen) and Taxpayer Ranks (All).
Page 21 here.

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Don't Worry (none / 0) (#83)
by squeaky on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 05:31:21 PM EST

We will soon catch up to them.

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There's got to be a way to limp GM... (none / 0) (#8)
by magster on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:24:39 AM EST

...and Chrysler through one more month.

I don't believe Bush will use TARP despite rumors to the contrary.

You know, (none / 0) (#12)
by bocajeff on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:40:09 AM EST

Aren't Senators supposed to represent their constituents? In other words, the Senator from Tennessee represents the interests of Tennessee and the Senator of Michigan represents the interest of Michigan.

I'm curious, how many people on this blog drive a car manufactured by an American Car Company? I drive a 2007 Lincoln MKZ. Before that was a 2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue. Before that was a Corvette. Before that was a Ford Mustang. Before that was a Dodge Aspen. Before that was a Plymouth Duster.

My favorite bumper sticker of all time: "I support Unions and Union Workers" on the back of a Toyota Pick Up truck...

Used Late 90's Toyota... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by kdog on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 12:26:50 PM EST

before that a Nissan, and before that my first ride, 1987 Mercury Cougar. No clue where the Japanese cars were assembled, but I drive the Nissan into the ground and doing the same to the Toyota.

I loved that Cougar man...even though the automatic window on the drivers side didn't work, you had to force it up and down, and it didn't close all the way. And the automatic door locks went soon after, couldn't lock the doors. Rear wheel drive, awful in the snow. But it was my first car, first taste of that car freedom...may as well have been a Bentley:)

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The ratio (none / 0) (#48)
by liminal on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 01:05:37 PM EST

of American cars to Japanese cars in my immediate family at the moment is 3 to 1. I drive a Dodge, and I like it fine. My parents have a very nice little GM car that gets excellent gas mileage. I think the engine was built in some joint Toyota-GM alliance. At any rate, it is a great little car, and they didn't have to pay the "Toyota premium."

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I used to drive American, and finally (none / 0) (#74)
by hairspray on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:34:53 PM EST

gave up. It was hard because of the unions, but the mileage, big design and workmanship was a problem. Now we have a Smart Car and my 8 year old Toyota which will be replaced in a few years by a hybrid, from whatever country produces a good one. I hope it is American.

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GM, Ford and Chrysler all have hybrids (none / 0) (#91)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 07:30:35 PM EST

available now.

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Sort of... (none / 0) (#98)
by hairspray on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 09:56:55 PM EST

They need to make ones as good as Toyota is doing now.

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: If you are only (none / 0) (#105)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 14, 2008 at 07:50:39 AM EST

"sort of" aware, how do you know they are not?

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While they (none / 0) (#77)
by cal1942 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 04:06:48 PM EST

support the interests of their states, they're also United States Senators.

Hutchison (R-TX) was to vote nay (Cornyn not voting) in spite of General Motors presence in Texas.

It would be interesting to know what this blog's commenters drive.

I've never owned a foreign car. I've owned Oldsmobiles, Chevys, Pontiacs, Buicks, Fords, Jeep, Chryslers and my wife owned a couple of Cadillacs as well as everything on my list.

I currently have a seldom driven Jeep I've owned for 12 years. Our main car is my wife's Buick Lucerne. Our two required auto buying criteria are: American, built in USA. No acceptions.

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10-yrn old Honda Prelude my (none / 0) (#90)
by oldpro on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 06:45:21 PM EST

current reliable transportation.

Before that, Honda, Olds 88, Opel, Ford, Willys, Plymouth in our family. Kept the Olds the longest...loved that car. Huge. (What my kid called a "Yank tank"). Only the Hondas and the Plymouth were new.

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oldpro (none / 0) (#96)
by cal1942 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 09:21:30 PM EST

I love that 'yank tank' tag.

You owned a Willys? Wow. A little over 40 years ago a Willys passed through my hands. I owned it for something like a month before someone came along and made an offer.

Hadn't thought about that in eons.

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: Yes, we had a Willys... (none / 0) (#100)
by oldpro on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:29:28 PM EST

accent on the 'old' in 'Oldpro!'
Yikes...forgot about our Volkswagen van...met an untimely end when it was stolen, the upholstery was cut up with knives and the whole thing pushed over a local bluff. I suspect some local Vietnam warhawks took exception to our political activities and the bumpersticker..."Vietnam: Love it or Leave it!"

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Your wife (none / 0) (#92)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 07:34:32 PM EST

has good taste.

06 Lucrene, 01 Regal and 92 Ranger

No problems with any of them. The Ranger is a 4 banger with a 5 speed that has over 279,000 miles on it and the head has never been pulled.

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Wow (none / 0) (#97)
by cal1942 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 09:39:59 PM EST

279K miles. Congrats. I'll be keeping my Jeep as long as possible.

It took me nearly a year to convince my wife to buy the Lucerne. Although it's she who has the good taste she's also very cautious. In total it took her two years to pick out a new car.

We both like the Lucerne. I 'borrow' it at every opportunity.

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I have been buying Buicks (none / 0) (#104)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 14, 2008 at 12:36:54 AM EST

since '91.... Had a 91, 95 and 98 Lesabre plus the 01 Regal which is supercharged... The 95 was my wife's

The secret to long auto life is maintenance.

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: Maintenance. Absolutely. (none / 0) (#107)
by cal1942 on Sun Dec 14, 2008 at 02:14:13 PM EST

Not rocket science but amazing how often ignored.

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Reid is a pitiful Senate ML (none / 0) (#99)
by pluege on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 11:04:17 PM EST

Americans, America, the Senate, all deserve better than a feeble sorry excuse for a Senate Majority Leader.

The Southern Senators (R-Japan) | 107 comments (107 topical)