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Thursday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:25:05 AM EST
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I have a busy day ahead. Hopefully, J and TChris will be around. In the meantime, here is an Open Thread.

This is an Open Thread.

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    Thursday Morning Open Thread | 133 comments (133 topical)

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    I like that Eric Holder (5.00 / 0) (#1)
    by lilburro on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:32:39 AM EST
    is unapologetically liberal:

    WASHINGTON -- When Eric H. Holder Jr. addressed a convention of the American Constitution Society for Law and Policy in June, he urged young lawyers to get involved in the liberal legal network, saying America would soon be "run by progressives."

    "With this new administration that will be taking its place in January of 2009, you know, we are going to be looking for people who share our values," said Mr. Holder, a member of the society's board. He added that a "substantial number of those people" would probably be "members of the A.C.S."
    I don't like how he is... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:52:42 AM EST
    unapologetically tyrannical.

    In addition, U.S. Attorney Eric H. Holder Jr. said in an interview that he is considering not only prosecuting more marijuana cases but also asking the D.C. Council to enact stiffer penalties for the sale and use of marijuana.

    Washington Post

    It's the prohibition that causes the violence Mr. Holder, not the magical plant.  If you look around you will see that beer distributors aren't shooting up the streets since we repealed the prohibition on alcohol.  It is not a coincidence.

    Parent

    Kdog ... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:28:11 AM EST
    I bet you would have been in full rant mode this week if Favreau had been denigrating a marijuana plant.

    ;)

    Parent

    Well... (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:37:57 AM EST
    a plant is alive...cardboard is dead:)

    Parent
    What if a picture of a pot plant was being abused? (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 07:31:58 PM EST


    Parent
    and it was THE pot plant (none / 0) (#132)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:47:10 PM EST
    the one we all aspire to; and not just say, an Iraqi pot plant, or a welfare to work pot plant.

    I bet you'd be outraged then, wouldnt you, kdog?

    Parent

    Demiurge Of MJ Plant (none / 0) (#134)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 04:31:15 PM EST
    Or is it semiurge?

    Either way in this case, for Favreau, the cutout of Hillary does not represent all women nearly as much as she represents Clinton, and then Hillary or vice versa.

    Parent

    A rational drug policy would (none / 0) (#13)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:15:05 AM EST
    target the more dangerous drugs, and lessen penalties for marijuana use.

    Parent
    I think the most rational of all... (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:33:34 PM EST
    would be to take away all penalties for possesion and sale of all substances...and focusing our efforts strictly on battling drug addiction.

    Drug sales aren't a problem when they are legal, responsible use isn't a problem...addiction is a problem.

    Parent

    Sorry, that's just not right. (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:37:58 PM EST
    Some drugs are more dangerous than others.
    PCP, Meth should not be allowed, period. Cocaine should also be banned, IMO.
    This "responsible use" line is pure BS.
    I don't understand why people who want the government to regulate food and legal drugs think it would be fine and dandy to let dangerous, toxic substances be sold as recreational drugs.
    Look at the Netherlands. They just banned hallucinogenic mushrooms, and they have a very tolerant drug policy.

    Parent
    Call BS if you want.... (none / 0) (#85)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:54:19 PM EST
    but in all honesty I know people personally who use drugs responsibly...even evil cocaine and heroin.

    Granted, I also personally know people who are addicts and really screwed up their lives.  But I'll tell ya this...the illegality didn't save them, it only made their addiction more expensive and damaging.

    Parent

    I didn't mention heroin. You see, I have (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    a rational view of  drug use. The effects of cocaine on the brain are worse than anything heroin does,  which is why it is dangerous.
    A responsible attitude towards drugs like cocaine and heroin is that if they are freely available, a certain, known percentage will become addicts.
    Cokeheads and methheads are a menace to society, regardless of whether the drugs are legal---just as alcoholics are dangerous, for that matter.


    Parent
    Btw, I've known dozens of people (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    who used cocaine and a few heroin users.
    I can't think of one who did  not suffer adversely from the use.

    Parent
    Furthermore, by your reasoning, there should (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:38:57 PM EST
    be no FDA to restrict ANY drugs, medicinal or otherwise. Why shouldn't people have freedom to get the cancer drugs they want, for example?

    Parent
    Yeah... (none / 0) (#81)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:50:12 PM EST
    I'd keep the FDA around for warning labels and to ensure quality and purity and such.  

    But yeah...in my utopia you could walk into a drug store and but opium, vicodin, cocaine, cholesterol meds, whatever without a prescription if you're of age.

    I honestly don't think the sky would fall...but I guess there is only one way to find out.

    Parent

    Oh god, you have to be joking. (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:58:25 PM EST
    What you propose is insanity from a medical standpoint, and very dangerous.

    Parent
    Yup. (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:19:15 PM EST
    The ERs would be full of people who didn't know WTH they were doing with very powerful drugs.  Plus the usual partying teens who think nothing of mixing alcohol and anything - driving, opiates, whatever.

    If I was cruel, I would say "Sure, let's give drugs to everyone!" because the foolish, ignorant and stupid would promptly hasten their own deaths.  (Unfortunately, they'd take others with them whether by driving while impaired or giving drugs to the baby that wouldn't stop crying.)

    Parent

    Yeah... (none / 0) (#104)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:27:23 PM EST
    it is kind of cruel to allow Darwin to do his thing...but kindergarten justice and government is so freakin' annoying ya know?

    Little Johnny is eating the crayons so the class can't use crayons.  Big Johnny can't handle his drugs, so nobody can use drugs...it is tiresome.

    Parent

    well, in fact, he can't. That's the point (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:32:25 PM EST
    I take it you haven't gone to pharmacy school, or gotten a Ph.D in the subject.
    It's a vast, difficult area.
    By your reasoning, anyone should be allowed to fly a a plane too.
    Look, you're obviously a raging Libertarian.
    This doesn't mean you are stupid, but it does mean your ideas are pretty worthless.
    Sorry.


    Parent
    Pharmacology is mind boggling. (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 02:29:54 PM EST
    Drug effects aren't always predictable.  Drug interactions can be very dangerous.  Add in problems like liver or kidney problems, high blood pressure, diagnosed or undiagnosed neurological disorders...it's a biological minefield.


    Parent
    Flying a plane... (none / 0) (#109)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:35:36 PM EST
    puts other at risk.

    Me getting high in my living room puts who at risk?  There is the difference.

    We know what we're doing now doesn't work...the prisons are overflowing and all illegal drugs are readily available.  What is they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

    Parent

    Wow, I take back my last comment (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:55:22 PM EST
    ...ahem.
    Point one: People don't simply use drugs in their living rooms.
    Point two: the actual subject was unrestricted access to ALL drugs, medicinal and recreational.
    Now, maybe you think there are recreational cancer drugs, etc. If that's what you're talking about, sorry for misunderstanding you.

    Parent
    Point one... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 02:03:05 PM EST
    true, when they leave their living room and engage in behavior that threatens others, we can punish the behavior, regardless of what is in their bloodstream.

    Point 2...cancer patient goes to doctor, recommends drug X.  Why should they have to go pay a co-pay every 30 days to simply get their permission slip renewed?  Person has a toothache, in serious pain.  Why should they have to see a dentist for a permission slip prior to getting some pain relief?

    Now I'd highly recommend seeing the dentist, and following up with the cancer doc...but the practice of seeing (and paying) doctors simply to get a permission slip makes zero sense to me.  Great deal for the doctors though.

    Parent

    Moving the goalposts to the other (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 02:06:19 PM EST
    end of the field? Wise choice, but not good enough.
    You favor unrestricted, unregulated access to all drugs. How people refill prescriptions is a completely different topic. There are plenty of reasons people need to see doctors if they are taking medication; for example, to check for side effects.

    Parent
    A daycare worker was convicted (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 02:00:59 PM EST
    when she used a OTC cold medication to fatally dose a six month old.  She'd been using the TOC meds as to help him sleep regularly.

    Now go back to the good old days when parents would use laudanum as a babysitter.  Just dose the kids with opiates and they'd sleep while mommy and daddy were at work.

    People don't just use drugs recreationally.  They use them in all ways, for all reasons.

    Parent

    Hey, don't impugn Darwin (one of my heroes) (none / 0) (#130)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 07:40:21 PM EST
    It's not HIM being stupid.

    Parent
    If freedom is crazy... (none / 0) (#96)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:18:24 PM EST
    then call me crazy.  I will grant you freedom is more dangerous...I just think it is preferable to a safer tyranny.

    As sarc said below...prescriptions, or as I like to call them permission slips, aren't required everywhere in the world.  The sky hasn't fallen.  Besides, don't you get tired of catering to the stupid sometimes?  A more free and more responsible society sounds like heaven to me.

    Parent

    You must love the free market, eh? (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:21:53 PM EST
    Let's all move to Somalia and live in unregulated paradise!


    Parent
    No, let's just ship the Free Marketeers (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 02:24:27 PM EST
    to Somalia.  No government, no services, no regulation - just lots and lots of freedom!

    Parent
    I don't know... (none / 0) (#101)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:24:35 PM EST
    I find a free market intriguing, but none has ever existed in the modern world that I know of.

    Somalia may be unregulated, but I'll bet their markets are rigged, just like ours.

    Parent

    But they have more "freedom" (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:26:41 PM EST
    of the sort you like.

    Parent
    The less-than-powerful (none / 0) (#133)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 04:25:47 PM EST
    are always going to seek redress and then the choice is between clan vendetta and rule of law, (some) govt, and (some) limits on perfect freedom.

    The Greeks kinda covered this 2500 years ago.

    Parent

    And it wasn't just pills in SA, (none / 0) (#102)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:24:43 PM EST
    the customer ahead of me got an injection from the same girl who ran the cash register...

    Parent
    lol!~ (none / 0) (#89)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:58:38 PM EST
    I'd keep the FDA around for warning labels and to ensure quality and purity and such.  

    Have you been paying attention?! They need to be scrapped and rebuilt. Worthless these days.


    Parent

    Back in the day, (none / 0) (#95)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:09:13 PM EST
    in my preparations for months of traipsing around S. America, I wanted to get some Imodium in case my system reacted badly to the water, or whatever, down there.

    Back then Imodium's status with the FDA was "prescription only" so I couldn't get any before I left. After my flight, one of my first stops in Caracas was a pharmacy where I bought some Imodium over the counter.

    Oddly enough, the streets of Venezuela were not strewn with the rotting carcasses of poor wretches who'd OD'd on Imodium...

    Parent

    In case you hadn't noticed, (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:24:15 PM EST
    there are hundreds of OTC drugs available.
    In case you didn't notice, also, there weren't any (or many) thalidomide babies in the US.

    Parent
    Thanks for the trivia. (none / 0) (#105)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:30:53 PM EST
    Not sure how it relates to my story...

    Parent
    Trivia? WOW (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:33:33 PM EST
    There are some awfully flippant, unserious attitudes about drugs here---pretty much the mirror image of the right wing nutcases' views on the economy, IMO.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by CST on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:38:26 PM EST
    I would say that the right-wingers had their shot at the economy and proved their way didn't work.  While the people here have not had their shot with drug laws, and the existing ones have proven they don't work.

    The "nuttiness" comes from ignoring what's right in front of you.

    Parent

    Wrong again. (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:52:04 PM EST
    In fact, this country had experience with unregulated drug use (including pharmaceuticals---the immediate topic), and we moved away from that.
    The idea that all drugs should be treated the same under the law is even more nutty than the idea that all markets should be unregulated to the maximum  extent, equally.

    Parent
    Well said CST... (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:55:42 PM EST
    Nobody has a monopoly on truth or sound policy...right, left, liberal, conservative.


    Parent
    I think you have no idea (none / 0) (#111)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:47:42 PM EST
    of my attitudes on drugs. You do, however, have a tiny sliver of my opinion on the FDA.

    Parent
    Like Prozak and Valium? (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:02:47 PM EST


    Parent
    you again? (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:27:32 PM EST
    I know better that to expect sensible debate.
    Bye.

    Parent
    About as Sensible (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:53:50 PM EST
    As the current US drug policy. Cracking down on more dangerous drugs makes you sound like a DEA drug warrior.

    All drugs should be decriminalized with addiction and education programs supervised by MD's. Law enforcement has no business dealing with medical issues.

    The taxpayers would save bundles and addicts and abusers would get the care that they need.

    Switzerland has it right with Heroin, MJ is still in a muddle over there.

    Parent

    oops (none / 0) (#2)
    by lilburro on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:33:12 AM EST
    cite NYT

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#14)
    by Steve M on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:17:39 AM EST
    That quote strikes me as more about job-seeking than ideology.

    Parent
    I don't (none / 0) (#56)
    by blueaura on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:37:32 AM EST
    It sounds like more politicization of the Justice Department, which many people complained about when Bush did it. If Holder is so unapologetically liberal, sure seems like he may do the same thing. Just because he shares our ideology and the previous AG's didn't doesn't make it right.

    Of course, cracking down on marijuana doesn't sound very liberal to me.

    I'd like to see Obama ask Pat Fitzgerald to stay on.

    Parent

    What Digby Said (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by ruffian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:36:00 AM EST
    Right on target.

    Don't let anyone tell you the Republican failure was just on competence and not ideology.

    Sorry that link is a little funky (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ruffian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:39:20 AM EST
    Trackbacks not working over there today.  Try this, and go to the post headed Epic Ideological Fail if it is no longer at the top.

    Parent
    Exactly: free market fundamentalism (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:43:03 AM EST
    is just as incorrect as communist ideology, and less plausible than the existence of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus---after all, there MIGHT be a toy factory at the North Pole, but we know for a fact that free markets do not work without regulation, ad especially that they work poorly in utilities.

    Parent
    "Open markets" is a total fallacy. (none / 0) (#22)
    by wurman on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:33:00 AM EST
    There has not actually been a "test" of whether some form of laissez-faire free markets can work, or not, because the concept has not ever actually been tried--the USA does not have anything even resembling Free Market Capitalism.

    Reagan, Bush xli, & Bu$h xliii stupidly allowed unregulated experiments within a closed, fixed, mixed market economy where some entitities & some businesses have free access to open markets while others are absolutely controlled, often with closed & open elements within a single class.

    For example, realtors & real estate brokers are heavily regulated in almost all states.  Many real estate lending practices are subject to rules, monitoring, & legal scrutiny (think zoning, HUD/FHA, VA & more).  But . . . once the loans are "bundled," organized into "derivatives," & "shopped" throughout the financial system there is suddenly the pretense of an unregulated free market.

    Auto, health, & commercial lines of insurances have a similar mixture of strict controls at some levels & no regulations at others.  Many insurers have now seen their unregulated "fiduciary" free market investment holdings drop so far in value that they may not be able to meet the potential obligations for anticipated losses (cf. AIG).

    Well, at least Greenspan belatedly noticed

    Parent

    linky no worky! n/t (none / 0) (#4)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:37:36 AM EST


    Parent
    What is different about America is (none / 0) (#80)
    by cpa1 on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:48:00 PM EST
    its care of the middle class and its reliance on the middle class.  When you hear these imbeciles screaming USA USA USA you wonder if they know what they are screaming about and how the Republicans want to remove it all.

    Digby is correct, given the first chance of economic daylight, you would see the selfish bastards of the GOP talk about more tax cuts, less regulation and a removal of the estate tax.  That is EXACTLY what got us into this s___hole they put us into.  They give tax cuts to anyone wealthy, even if they did nothing to create new businesses or new ideas, and that money became tinker toys for Wall Street to create new pyramid schemes.  All the while American business was not investing in employees or plants and equipment because it knew the middle class had no money to buy knew products.  Even with taxes low and interest rates almost nothing, there is no real investment by business.

    That is the fallacy and the tell tale heart of trickle down economics.  We need to teach that to all Americans and Obama better get himself on the TV explaining what trickle down did to us, unless of course he believed in Ronald Reagan, which could be the case.

    It's like the evil enemy in the movies, the hero always forgets to put in those final bullets in the head that will make sure the bad dead guy becomes the undead.

    Parent

    Can I ban my husband from the kitchen? (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:51:24 AM EST
    Or maybe I should just buy him an Easy Bake Oven?

    He's been over microwaving food in plastic containers so much that I now have a collection of scarred and deformed storage containers.  He needed to melt some butter, so instead of using one of the heavy stainless steel measuring cups to do it directly on the stove, or using one of our Pyrex glass measuring cups, he nuked it in a plastic container.  Must have nuked it a little too long because he said that it not only made a huge mess, but it stunk as well.  

    He's not stoopid.  He just think that his ways are best.  I can't convince him otherwise.  I'm glad that I'm the one teaching my kids how to cook.  (I've gotten way more conscientious about using proper knife techniques.)

    Plastic and microwaves... (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:57:41 AM EST
    ...are not good for one's health.  All kinds of nasty chemicals get released when plastic is nuked.  

    We've got enough chemicals in our food, no reason to add more.

    Parent

    For some reason... (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:02:58 AM EST
    I think leftovers taste better when you warm them up in a pot on the stove anyway.

    Especially chinese food...you take whatever ya got leftover mix it all together in a pot...mmm mmm good.

    Parent

    One of the side effects... (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:09:32 AM EST
    ...of my condition is ever-present queasy stomach and a change in how things smell.  

    So, the smell of just about anything in the microwave triggers an unpleasant reaction.

    Parent

    You remind me of my pregnant days. (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:46:48 AM EST
    No queasiness, but everything smelled and tasted different.  I couldn't stand the things I once liked.

    Now I'm just getting ever more averse to MSG.  I like other glutamates, or I wouldn't think that well aged cheeses were divine, but MSG makes me want to toss the food in the garbage.  It must be genetic, because I've seen my one son reject foods with MSG in them.  

    I eat healthier, because the average processed salty food has at least some MSG in it.  There's even a British brand of potato chips that has MSG.  Brought a bag home, tasted them, checked the label and kicked myself for not doing it in the store.  Who woulda thunk the Brits would put MSG on their crisps?

    Parent

    odd... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by kempis on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:25:17 AM EST
    I was thinking just this morning how I've become so much more sensitive to food and how it affects me as I've aged. I used to be a human garbage dump in my wild and misspent youth. But now I'm incredibly sensitive to preservatives and the general, overly-processed weirdness of some foods. Sadly, either today's Doritos are a petroleum product, or I've become unable to digest them.... :(

    Parent
    Some Doritos (none / 0) (#82)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:52:43 PM EST
    do have MSG on them as part of the corn starch/oil/seasoning coating mixture.  Might have food coloring in that mix as well.

    I love plain old unsalted corn chips with salsa (Frontera, please!).

    Parent

    Lucky us, in my town (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Cream City on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 05:08:12 PM EST
    we have a marvelous Hispanic factory, store, etc., for freshly made and MSG-free tortillas, chips, and more.  The taste without preservatives is terrific.

    I also have learned a lot more about, and learned to avoid, MSG from a sibling with a serious migraine problem, to the point that he went to a specialized clinic.  There, he found out about how much of a problem MSG is for migraines and, as noted here, many other conditions (hypertension for me and many in my family).  He educated us all.

    Amazing to me is how MSG is in some brands of soups, one of my staples.  I read a lot more labels now. . . .

    Parent

    Used to love Progresso soups (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:08:49 PM EST
    I can't eat them now.  They are chock full of MSG.

    And as much as I love Cook's Illustrated/America's Test Kitchen, I disagree with them on MSG (which their tasters like) and corn syrup(ditto).

    BTW - Doritos have up to 4 artificial food colors in them.  I just looked at the ingredients.

    Parent

    I can no longer eat Doritos, which (none / 0) (#87)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:58:14 PM EST
    were my snack machine fallback choice at the law library while studying for the bar exam.

    Parent
    Count your blessings (n/t) (none / 0) (#106)
    by Spamlet on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:32:18 PM EST


    Parent
    My dad used to ... (none / 0) (#31)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:53:24 AM EST
    reheat Chinese food with a steamer.  Produces quite impressive results.

    Though I'm too lazy, and have Huck Finn-like attitudes toward Chinese food("...it all swaps 'round in your belly."), and go your route, Kdog.

    Parent

    I love to steam leftovers! (none / 0) (#67)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:18:52 PM EST
    I'm still looking for a good, large capacity steamer.  Very good for rice and some baked goods.

    Parent
    That's nothing (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Steve M on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 08:57:59 AM EST
    My 2-year old won't stop microwaving metal containers!  Fortunately it is only her toy microwave.

    Parent
    Get some links on the femininizing (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:23:59 AM EST
    effects of the chemicals in plastic containers.
    That might do the trick.

    Parent
    Wouldn't work. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:52:49 AM EST
    Even after a near hospitalization because he "treated" his own illness by mostly ignoring it, he still tends to ignore advice that doesn't reinforce his own beliefs.

    And he's smart, dammit!  His profession involves no touchy feely stuff, just logic, logic and more logic.  He should be able to figure out that water can only get to 212F (then it turns to steam) but that fats can easily get to 400F because they don't boil.  

    Parent

    Men tend to think that (none / 0) (#33)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:05:54 AM EST
    expertise generalizes. Nothing you can do about it.

    Parent
    My brother, who is quite smart, (none / 0) (#38)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:13:32 AM EST
    even though he is a super-conservative hack, politically, once remarked to my sister that there must be a new moon, since last night there was a full moon.

    Parent
    snort! (none / 0) (#69)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:21:37 PM EST
    That is funny!

    Parent
    I don't like hot plastic with my food (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:12:41 AM EST
    I never have.  Anyhow they have some studies out indicating that plastics leeching into our foods have the ability to feminize men so I told my husband who loved to cook plastic he was making his son's penis smaller and that was the end of that.  He only uses plastic wrap now and microwaves conservatively and doesn't allow the wrap to touch the food :)

    Parent
    Have you (none / 0) (#61)
    by cal1942 on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:56:55 AM EST
    given thought to the idea that perhaps messing up is part of a plot to escape the chore?

    Parent
    Shhh... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:05:51 PM EST
    you're gonna blow up our spot.

    Back when I co-habitating with a ladyfriend, I'd "accidentally" throw something red in with the white wash:)

    Parent

    No, he always punches in (none / 0) (#70)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:24:57 PM EST
    about double the time anything takes to reheat.  He's just feeding himself, so it's not like it's a chore he can easily escape!

    Parent
    Its a guy thing. (none / 0) (#76)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:38:08 PM EST

    The best container is:
     A. The same kind you used last time or,
     B. The closest at hand.

    Can you get him to sort garbage?

    Parent

    He actually uses (none / 0) (#79)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:43:43 PM EST
    the recycle bin and the compost bucket!

    He can be trained.  It's just that since he is an adult, he doesn't think he needs any "help".  I'm still waiting for him to develop food poisoning from eating food he leaves out overnight or sometimes longer.  

    Parent

    I just have to confess this. Brand new (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:54:57 PM EST
    microwave.  I read, with amusement, the instructions on microwaving a bag of popcorn.  Isn't fully popped so I nuked it again.  Burned  popcorn and scorched new microwave.  I sd. to my daughter:  aren't you glad you didn't do that?  Her reply:  Mom, I wouldn't have done that.  And she was right!  

    Parent
    Thank goodness for smart kids. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:08:01 PM EST
    This year, my six year old was watching a pot of pasta boil as I did some dishes.  When I went to carry the pasta to the sink to drain it, I noticed a paraffin smell and what looked like bluish oil floating on the water.  I found a square of blue paper when I drained it - a crayon wrapper.  He was very unhappy when I threw out his pasta a la crayola.

    But he never did that again.

    Parent

    What's up with fundraisers? (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:24:47 AM EST
    They all seem to be calling me this month.

    But one, from an environmental organization, was asking for money about a specific effort.  I hadn't heard about this issue, and kindly asked for clarification.

    The caller got all huffy, and impugned my interest in the environment.  I asked him again for clarification about what effort entailed.  He babbled incoherently for about a minute about how I didn't care about mountains.

    I thanked him for his time, and hung up.

    I realize telefundraisers are mostly just kids.  But they really need to give them better info.  

    May have been a scam. (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    I once got a call on behalf of firefighters.  Would come to my office to pick up check.  I sd., will you be in uniform?  Answer:  no.  Same scammer called just about everyone on my floor, which was a state law enforcement agency!

    Parent
    Greek youth riots (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:38:15 AM EST
    If you are curious about Greece and the youth riots, I have been reading the Greek press to see what is going on.  Today I found in Eleftherotipia a letter written by young people about the grievances.  I translated it if you are curious.  

    WE WANT A BETTER WORLD

    REMEMBER!

    Now you chase money, your worry only about the storefronts, you got fat and lost your hair, YOU FORGOT.

    HELP US.  We are not terrorists, hooded strangers and acquaintances.

     We are your children.

    Those you are familiar with and those that are not.

    We have dreams, don't kill our dreams.

    We have power, don't kill our power

    Once you were young as well.  

    We waited for you to support us.

    We waited for you to care, to make us proud for once,

    In vain our wishes.

    You live lives of lies, you bent your heads, and lowered your pants waiting to die,

    You only buy and sell.

    You have no hopes, you don't fall in love, you don't create,

    Materialism, everywhere

    LOVE NO WHERE - TRUTH NOWHWERE

    THEY ARE KILLING US

    HELP US

    YOUR CHILDREN

    PS.  cry some tears for us.    

    "lowered your pants waiting to die"? (none / 0) (#44)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:03:10 AM EST
    Hmmm.  I thought it was well documented that the pants get higher and higher as one gets older.  

    Things really must be different in Greece.  Opa!

    Parent

    Lowering the Pants ... (none / 0) (#47)
    by santarita on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:14:25 AM EST
    Interesting imagery.  Maybe this refers to the increase in the size of the stomach resulting from too many baklava which then necessitates belting pants below the abdomen.  

    Parent
    Well, if you don't get it... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:22:28 AM EST
    what can I say?  Of course trivializing other nations to their National Geographic, Hollywood components is an easy way to diminish other nations.  

    Yes, Greeks are all opa and baklava.  Brilliant progressive perspective.

    Parent

    Sorry ... (none / 0) (#51)
    by santarita on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:30:18 AM EST
    I don't get the  imagery about lowering the pants.  And when a different culture uses imagery that I don't understand, I find it interesting and would like to understand it.  Italians use the image of pouring ashes over the head as a way of expressing contrition.  So consider my head covered with ashes.

    Parent
    If someone lowers their pants (none / 0) (#53)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:35:37 AM EST
    to authority and materialism, what have they done?  

    Parent
    If I'm reading your translation... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:56:11 AM EST
    correctly, it is the old that have lowered their pants, not the youth.

    I assume it means the old have lowered their pants and allowed themselves to be f*cked....right?

    Parent

    Thank You. (none / 0) (#64)
    by santarita on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:08:09 PM EST
    That makes sense.  Of course that imagery is universal and much less interesting even if it makes their point.

    From what I've been reading about the protests, many Greeks are upset with Karamanlis and some are encouraging the students in hopes of toppling the government.

    Italy has been having its own student unrest for about 2 months with gigantic demonstrations in all major cities. For the most part, the protests have been peaceful.   France and Spain have also been touched by unrest.

    Is this 1968 revisited?

    Parent

    Maybe... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:12:26 PM EST
    where is the anger from our youth?  Job prospects are down, wages are down, tuition is up, cost of living is up...too busy playing Guitar Hero to notice?

    Parent
    Stellaaa, (none / 0) (#68)
    by KeysDan on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:20:32 PM EST
    thank you for the translation and insights. Although the violence is a tragedy, a country that dismisses its youth has a bleak future.  In our case, many young people joined in the peaceful protests of the Iraq war in 2002 and 2003, but not enough. California Proposition 8's passage appears to be a new beginning for many young people, realizing that some of its proponents used the issue as a cover for opposition to the "gay agenda" which would appear to involve a list of items.   So, maybe there is an awakening from complacency and goals that seemed, at one point, focused on ' I want my MBA and BMW'.  

    Parent
    Wow, it would seem that not just (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:27:38 AM EST
    my nation has forsaken many of its children in our current materialistic quest.  I believe in community service and do 4H work.  Membership was low last year when I started but I had a feeling that when our economy got rough we were all going to need each other so I'm thinking the kids will show if they have someplace to come to when parents are no longer buying them off the to do list.  Also noticed our kennel club enrollment for our last obedience class was about quadruple.  We offer a good 7 wk class for a reasonable fee of $35.  Seems that people are slowing down a bit, enjoying their pets and seeking more community.

    Parent
    That's dirt cheap! (none / 0) (#73)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:27:48 PM EST
    Ten years ago, I think we paid double that for a puppy obedience class.  (Not going to do that again, it was great for socialization but almost useless for actually learning anything.)

    Parent
    They've got a friend in NY... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:53:36 AM EST
    the Greek consulate was vandalized last night, they think it might be the bike bomber.  A brick was thrown threw the window and "Alex Was Here" was spraypainted on the wall, assumed to be a reference to the kid that got shot and killed by police in Athens that set off the riots, Alexandros Grigoropoulos.  Link

    Reading the statement you translated I'm reminded of The Who's "Young Mans Blues".

    Well a young man
    He ain't got nothin' in the world these days
    I said a young man
    Ain't got nothin' in the world these days

    In the old days
    When a young man was a strong man
    All the people stepped back
    When a young man walked by

    You know nowadays
    Well it's the old man's
    Got all the money
    And a young man
    Ain't got nothin' in the world these days



    Parent
    When this started recently, I (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:04:36 PM EST
    read there are cells of anarchists just waiting for something to happen (such as law enforcement shooting the young person) so they can start torching everything.  Is this correct?

    Parent
    I don't know... (none / 0) (#99)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 01:22:48 PM EST
    but I could see the authorities saying that, whether it is true or not, to try and diminish the validity of the grievances of Grecian youth.

    "Nothing to see here, just those damn anarchists again" type of thing.

    Parent

    The remains of a small child's body (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Amiss on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:54:19 PM EST
    have reportedly been found here in Florida near the missing toddler, Caylee Anthony's home.This has been very sad for many Floridians and many across the nation. I hope that we can soon bring an end to this case.

    Panal blames White House for abuse... (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by desertswine on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 05:36:48 PM EST
    WASHINGTON (AP) - The physical and mental abuse of detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, was the direct result of Bush administration detention policies and should not be dismissed as the work of bad guards or interrogators, according to a bipartisan Senate report released Thursday.

    Bush needs to retire straight to prison.

    Jon Stewart's/Huckabee (none / 0) (#15)
    by Lil on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:18:22 AM EST
    discussion on gay marriage was great. I am hopeless when it comes to links, but hope you can find it. Andgarden and some others, you will like it.

    Jon Stewart and Colbert (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by CST on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:35:29 AM EST
    Have been great on this issue, really trying to bring it up as much as possible as a civil rights issue and have been very effective at shooting down the opposition.

    Those two aren't perfect, but when they are on, man are they good, and they have a lot of influence on younger voters.

    Parent

    Huckabee (none / 0) (#16)
    by lilburro on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:22:25 AM EST
    is such a moron it's unbelievable.  He could barely put up a fight.

    Parent
    Granted ... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:30:55 AM EST
    but most Democrat elected officials aren't much better on gay marriage.  And they should know better because most of them aren't morons.

    Parent
    The Jon Stewart (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by lilburro on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:36:00 AM EST
    interview is great because it demonstrates how much of the opposition is just reflexive - they can't come up with an actual reason, they just don't want to change a word - a word that has been changed time and time again.

    Here is it at Thinkprogress

    Parent

    ha - (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by lilburro on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:37:13 AM EST
    and one of Huckabee's main "arguments" is that if you open up marriage is between a man and a woman to gay people, that means you have to open up marriage to polygamy, etc.  

    He seems unable to concentrate on the "two people" aspect of marriage.  Dumb@ss.

    Parent

    Also ... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:48:54 AM EST
    there are potential constitutional problems with plural marriage, specially "the equal protection clause."

    There are no constitutional problems with gay marriage, hence, the attempts by those against to create amendments (state and federal) outlawing it.

    Parent

    Such as, for example (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by dk on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:38:48 AM EST
    Barack Obama, constitutional law professor, who stated:

    I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian -- for me -- for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God's in the mix.


    Parent
    But from a governmental ... (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:58:41 AM EST
    perspective it's just a contract mostly involving money.

    Thanks to the first amendment, Obama's religious attitudes have no bearing on the government's involvement in marriage.

    But it's a shame that Obama and a lot of other Democratic elected officials don't see this for what it is:  A civil rights issue.

    History will not look kindly on them.

    Parent

    You're absolutely right, (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by dk on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:06:34 AM EST
    of course, but that is why I stressed that Obama is a constitutional law professor.  He understands you are right about what civil marriage is, but yet he intentionally brings in his religious opinions, which for first amendment reasons are not relevant to the issue of civil marriage, as a rationale for opposing gay marriage.

    Why does he do this?  That answer is not that he doesn't "see this for what it is."  The only reason I can see is that he opposes civil marriage rights for gay people for non-religious reasons, but hides these reasons behind his religion because he knows that, in our society, religion seems to be an acceptable excuse for exercising bigotry (whether it be sexism, homophobia, or whatever).  Of course, Huckabee is doing the same thing.

    Parent

    Political expediency (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by andgarden on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:17:03 AM EST


    Parent
    Religon as a politically (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by dk on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:27:00 AM EST
    expedient method of expressing homophobia.  True on Obama's and Huckabee's part, I think.  

    Parent
    Religion (none / 0) (#126)
    by caseyOR on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 05:01:20 PM EST
    is the last bastion of bigots.

    Parent
    Historically, opposing civil rights ... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:28:35 AM EST
    has always been politically expedient.

    Parent
    Indeed it has (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by andgarden on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:37:22 AM EST


    Parent
    Barack has been right (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by lilburro on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:03:14 AM EST
    on many gay issues.  But sometimes he is a big disappointment.  McClurkin, the statement you (dk) quote, and finally his Advocate interview from the primaries in April.  I find much of that interview to be dishonest.  

    Q: Do you think it's possible to get full repeal of DOMA? As you know, Senator Clinton is only looking at repealing the plank of DOMA that prohibits the federal government from recognizing state-sanctioned unions.  

    OBAMA:  I don't know. But my commitment is to try to make sure that we are moving in the direction of full equality, and I think the federal government historically has led on civil rights -- I'd like to see us lead here too.

    He then goes on to explain why he will limit his leadership on DADT and gay marriage.

    His talking out of both sides of his mouth would be more bearable if he didn't act like he was some hero of gay rights in the same interview.

    Parent

    If you think about it, the step which (none / 0) (#25)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:37:55 AM EST
    could conceivably weaken marriage would be to allow gays civil commitments, but not by the name of "marriage".
    If gays could do that, so could and would straights.

    Parent
    He's a Southern Republican. (none / 0) (#19)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 09:25:00 AM EST
    Of course he's  a moron---he's a product of an ideology that thinks education is antithetical to right thinking.

    Parent
    Link to Stewart & Huckabee (none / 0) (#35)
    by wurman on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:07:17 AM EST
    Daily Show on gay marriage

    Daily Show on less government
    Gov. Huckabee's stupidity in this first segment is so profound that it defies ridicule.  It's astounding that a man who was once the governor of a state literally has no concept as to what government is or what it does.  Even if the ghost of John Calvin made Huckabee memorize Plato's Republic this once & future GOP presidential candidate still wouldn't get it.

    Jon Stewart's level of tolerance is amazing.

    Parent

    Yeah... (none / 0) (#57)
    by blueaura on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:46:35 AM EST
    I watched this last night. I was amazed by Huckabee's naivete in the first segment. I used to think he was a sensible guy, if a bit misguided in his social conservatism. But now, boy. . . he really fell down several pegs in my estimation. I loved JS's remark about unicorns.

    Stewart was very good on the marriage issue. I was cheering him on. And Huckabee's "Just because someone opposes gay marriage doesn't make them homophobic." Well, that may be but you sure are homophobic, Huckster.

    Parent

    Jus' dog bone dumb. (none / 0) (#71)
    by wurman on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:25:10 PM EST
    I've not paid any attention to Southern politics for many years.  My assumption had been that they were like Gov. George Corley Wallace (Dem, AL) who was smart & educated but played @ stupid & espoused racism to pick up the redneck vote.

    Because of this year's GOP primary & its many wannabees, I've had to become aware of the truly disturbing fact that those people actually are ignorant, semi-literate, & stupendously lacking in basic intelligence. Huckabee could move to any town in the USA & put the village idiots out of work.  Now I perceive why McCain, Palin, & Bu$h xliii (previously) were & are trumpeted as the picks of the litter by that sorry bunch.

    Parent

    From the Asia Times (none / 0) (#37)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:12:45 AM EST
    "The developed world is shifting from a demographic profile in which the very young (children four years and under) outnumbered the elderly (65 and older), to a profile with 10 times as many retirees as children aged four or younger. Economics simply never has had to confront a situation in which the next generation simply failed turn up."  -Spengler

    Just some demographic food for thought in this open thread.

    The true test of a society (none / 0) (#78)
    by Fabian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:40:16 PM EST
    is how many resources are devoted to raising and educating the children, not caring for the elderly.  The huge problem with war and epidemics like HIV/AIDS is that children are left without parents and sometimes without any family at all.  Instead of being cared for and educated, they often end up living on the streets, becoming slave labor or at best, finding a low skill job.

    So it's not really a child/parent/elderly ratio, but the economic potential they represent.  A skilled, educated population will be better to care for themselves, their children and their parents.  An uneducated, unskilled population that can barely feed themselves won't do well by either their children or their parents.

    That's why the argument that we need immigration and a higher birth rate for a better economy isn't sound.  If that population is impoverished and uneducated, they won't contribute much economically.  

    Parent

    Tom Daschle and Health Care Reform (none / 0) (#52)
    by santarita on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:33:46 AM EST
    To me he represents the "go along to get along" kind of Democrat.  I don't think that he will usher in major health care reform.  

    Tom Daschle (none / 0) (#54)
    by CST on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:36:55 AM EST
    Is not in charge here.  Ted Kennedy is, and you better believe he wants to usher in major health care reform.

    Besides, at this point, "going along to get along" probably means major health care reform.

    Parent

    I Hope You Are Right... (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by santarita on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 12:11:34 PM EST
    but Obama's press conference today seemed more like nibbling around the edges - trying to get heath costs down by computerizing medical records and urging prevention.  

    Parent
    Ted Kennedy, sadly, is too (none / 0) (#58)
    by dk on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:47:11 AM EST
    sick to be in charge.  And even if he weren't too sick to be in charge, he would not be in charge because his views on healthcare are likely too liberal for Obama, who campaigned on a center right healthcare platform.

    Kennedy's symbolic value will loom large, and I'm sure many of his current and former staff will be part of the process simply because they likely have some of the most expertise on the Hill regarding healthcare.  But Daschle will be in charge.  Obama owes him, and the village approves of him.

    Parent

    This is pretty cool... (none / 0) (#118)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 02:20:43 PM EST
    musicians are demanding the government stop using their music to psychologically torturing people.  Link

    What is the AP implying...... (none / 0) (#121)
    by vml68 on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 02:38:39 PM EST
    "In addressing the issue, the usually smooth-talking Obama occasionally stuttered or stumbled."

    Got this line from an AP article about Obama addressing the issue of any possible staff involvement with the Blago scandal.
    Anyone else find it a lttle odd that they would write that.


    lol!~ maybe they are listening to him (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 03:22:28 PM EST
    for the first time. I mean really listening  ;)

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#124)
    by ruffian on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 04:00:54 PM EST
    Talk about holding onto information until they could use it to imply something nefarious.

    They probably didn't comment on Nixon sweating until he was talking about Watergate.

    Parent

    No kidding! (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by vml68 on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 04:37:06 PM EST
    Did they not notice all his umms and errs before?
    As far I am concerned, Obama has never been a smooth-talker but a smooth teleprompter reader!
    Dog, I hate the media.

    Parent
    Q & A with David Plouffe. (none / 0) (#122)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 02:40:42 PM EST
    Very interesting.  

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