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"Concern Trolling" From Some Blog Stars

I wonder if Greenwald and Digby (See also blog star and "concern troll" Jane Hamsher) will be called morons for this:

Digby explained perfectly why this reaction is so mystifying (re-printed with her consent):

Liberals took cultural signifiers as a sign of solidarity and didn't ask for anything. So, we have the great symbolic victory of the first black president (and that's not nothing, by the way) who is also a bipartisan, centrist technocrat. Surprise. . . . Obama said repeatedly that he wasn't ideological, that he cared about "what works." I don't know why people didn't believe that. He's a technocrat who wants to "solve problems" and "change politics." The first may actually end up producing the kind of ideological shift liberals desire simply because of the dire set of circumstances greeting the new administration. (Hooray for the new depression!) The second was always an empty fantasy --- politics is just another word for human nature, and that hasn't changed since we were dancing around the fire outside our caves.

[MORE . . .]

. . . So many progressives were misled about what Obama is and what he believes. But it wasn't Obama who misled them. It was their own desires, their eagerness to see what they wanted to see rather than what reality offered.

Early on in the primary cycle, Markos Moultisas -- in a post I recall vividly though can't find -- wisely urged that progressives refrain from endorsing or supporting any of the Democratic candidates unless they work for that support, make promises and concessions important to the progressive agenda, etc., lest progressives' support end up being taken for granted. But that advice was largely ignored. For whatever reasons, highly influential progressive factions committed themselves early, loyally and enthusiastically to Obama even though he never even courted that support, let alone made commitments to secure it.

Bad Digby!! Bad Greenwald! For the record, I was excoriated for writing similar things (see for example here) during the primaries. Let's see if anyone calls Greenwald and Digby "morons" now.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    I could be wrong,but (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by talesoftwokitties on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:18:43 AM EST
    didn't Kos unwisely ignore his own advice?

    Indeed (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:26:07 AM EST
    Obama didn't denounce the false progressive spin (5.00 / 4) (#85)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:01:26 PM EST
    He presented himself as a centrist while the left blogs spun him as far more progressive than Hillary.

    Obama didn't object to the manner in which he was being misrepresented. He was complicit in constructing and maintaining the falsehood of his superior progressivism.

    It's a lie of omission on his part, but still...  

    Parent

    Use of the internet (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:29:18 AM EST
    I still want to know how the Obama team used the Intertubes to create the viral idea that he was "the progressive".  Everyone talks about the volunteer and money use of the internet, but the coopting of the left was the real political maneuver.

     I think Axelrod had a comment somewhere, that people do not want to be perceived that they are not part of a movement, that they will be left out.  I think the, progressive/left, got caught by the spinning and it became political anathema to the "scripted progressive" mantra to question the narrative.  The cultural signifiers duped them.  

    But do you think they will even do any self analysis?  

    Here's the thing (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:30:19 AM EST
    Obama never spinned himself as a progressive. Quite the opposite in fact.

    Parent
    That is right, (5.00 / 15) (#11)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:32:05 AM EST
    they spinned him.  We watched as they spinned on the blogs and how they shut down any questioning of the spin.  That is how the TL refugee program started.  

    Parent
    Pretty much (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:33:11 AM EST
    Elise geekesque (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Salo on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:45:09 AM EST
    etc... Almost profession in their shakedown of the leftie intertubes ...and Eugene of course.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:54:38 AM EST
    If they do not feel alluded to (I would exclude Eugene from this - he was sounding alarms about Obama as I recall), then they are being obtuse.

    Glenn and Digby are looking at them.

    Parent

    "Looking at them"? (none / 0) (#78)
    by lambert on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:40:19 PM EST
    Well, let's hope they don't get a dead fish in the mail or a fist in the mouth.

    Parent
    It's how I got here! (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by talesoftwokitties on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:42:02 AM EST
    The TL refugee program - LOL (5.00 / 9) (#18)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:44:44 AM EST
    That's true. Although there was a scary period - during the Great Commenter Purge after the convention - when this blog also became very group-think and eerily like the other blogs for a while.

    Parent
    Oh, when the "she is a PUMA" (5.00 / 7) (#20)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:50:58 AM EST
    accusations started.  It felt like the movie, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, when the ones who succumbed, would find one that did not, they would all point at that person and make a god awful cry.  

    Parent
    I disagree (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:56:46 AM EST
    there was full on Obama Delusion Syndrome coming out and we wanted no part of that.

    I do not want it now.

    Let's deal with realities - in both directions.

    Parent

    Do you mean . . . (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Spamlet on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:59:08 AM EST
    Obama Derangement Syndrome? If not, what is Obama Delusion Syndrome? The belief that he is a progressive?

    Parent
    Derangement (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:00:08 AM EST
    was what I meant.

    Parent
    But Obama Delusion Syndrome does exist (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:12:37 PM EST
    That's what we're talking about, isn't it:

    The [delusional] belief that he is a progressive.

    Obama Derangement Syndrome, insofar as it exists, would be akin to CDS: expounding unfounded, irrational, spiteful, hateful lies and distortions about the person, their motives, their actions, and their policy positions.

    Parent

    Gee I can't resist (2.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Pepe on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 01:12:22 PM EST
    So let me see if I have this right. The people who didn't agree with the front pagers were delusional or deranged because they didn't sign up to be delusional about Obama? They were the ones deranged because they had an open mind and the front pagers did not? TFF. And then those who had an open mind as opposed to a circle the wagons closed mind had their accounts deleted. That is not logical on it's face.

    But then this is what is really funny. After the closed mindedness and the purging of posters you say:

    "Let's deal with realities - in both directions."

    Uh, you kind of showed you are not willing to do that already didn't you?

    Parent

    I suggest Molly Bloom and BTD (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:32:56 AM EST
    live blog their respective assessments of TalkLeft post DNC.  Kind of a navel-gazing retrospectiscope.

    Parent
    TL refugee program! (none / 0) (#56)
    by Pepe on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:39:56 AM EST
    How appropriate. Very well put.

    Parent
    On the Other Hand,... (none / 0) (#22)
    by santarita on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:53:17 AM EST
    Obama regards himself as progressive as he said in a town-hall speech in Atlanta on July 8th.  And he is when compared to Bush or McCain.  He, however, is not as progressive as some progressives would like.

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:57:14 AM EST
    We are all Center Right.

    Parent
    This is the one part of (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:55:24 AM EST
    Greenwald's post (and BTD's endorsement of it) that I disagree with.  Obama didn't say he was a progressive or a liberal and didn't advocate particularly progressive or liberal ideas until a bit of economic stuff towards the very end of the campaign.

    But he and his camp didn't actively disabuse anybody of the idea, either, and that was quite deliberate.  He wanted to be seen -- and was seen -- as being all things to all people, which is why he kept his campaigning so vague (never mind the position papers on the Web site, he didn't actively campaign on those specifics.)

    I actually don't fault him for that, but it's the original reason I did not and could not support him from the get-go.  Somebody who's either afraid to or unwilling to campaign as a clear liberal/progressive is somebody who's not going to govern as one, even if he wants to (WORM WORM WORM!), because he will have no political mandate for it.  Simple as that.

    Parent

    Didn't actively disabuse? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:57:53 AM EST
    Boy, you expect a lot of pols don't you?

    Parent
    BTD (5.00 / 7) (#34)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:01:56 AM EST
    please read what I said.  I said I didn't fault him for that.  I said the ultimate effect of that is why I couldn't support him from the get-go.

    Edwards, and eventually HRC, though it took her a while, did actively campaign on those ideas.  Either one might have failed to carry them out as president, but at least they would have had the option had they been elected.

    Any options in that direction that Obama has are pretty much solely the result of the sudden economic meltdown and the fear it's put into everybody.

    Parent

    Well I agree on that (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:03:31 AM EST
    But circumstances make all that irrelevant now.

    Parent
    Don't know (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:11:22 AM EST
    that it's irrelevant at all, given the direct impact
    campaign style has on his or any other politician's
    options for governing, but it's certainly now a fact of life.

    What I was reacting to, btw, was the idea that Obama somehow has no responsibility for the fact that a lot of people thought he was a progressive.  Sure it's his responsibility.  His whole campaign was to encourage people to believe what they wanted to believe.

    Parent

    Many Believed Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:15:00 AM EST
    Was progressive as well. Was it her responsibility to tell the voters that she was not?

    Parent
    No. Because everyone already (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:19:30 AM EST
    knew she is evil incarnate.

    Parent
    Not True (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:25:27 AM EST
    Unless by everyone you mean a relatively small group of vocal voters that had dominated the left blogosphere.

    Guess you are being funny. Hyperbole.

    Parent

    Snark. I'm a big Hillary fan. (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:14:16 PM EST
    Really? (none / 0) (#73)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:22:55 PM EST
    Ha. (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:45:28 PM EST
    Sure (none / 0) (#47)
    by TheRealFrank on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:23:39 AM EST
    But there isn't a single living politician who will go out there and tell voters "I am not who you think I am" at the risk of losing votes.


    Parent
    Nader? (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:27:26 AM EST
    Politicians that lose on a regular basis tend to be more honest then not.

    Parent
    WTF? (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Spamlet on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:32:13 AM EST
    Obama is only beginning to understand the capability he has at his disposal.

    Um, no. Obama has understood this "capability" for quite some time. In fact, it was his single-minded intention to create and exploit precisely this "capability." But what, exactly, does Obama intend to do with it? Inquiring minds, etc.

    Wrong progressive and wrong candidate (5.00 / 11) (#16)
    by koshembos on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:44:18 AM EST
    There is a simpler explanation to why Kos and Co. went with Obama the centrist with the moronic bipartisan and change of politics meme. They are NOT progressive. Furthermore, Obama rekindled the Clinton hate and Reagan admiration (why not in 3 steps Reagan theology brought us another depression) and Kos and Co. ran with it gladly. DailyKos has become hate central. Progress my rear end!!!

    What brought us Obama is the upper middle class that reads the NYT and WaPo religiously and decided that it's quite fancy to have a black president. They also learned from the the papers they read that the worst thing that ever happened to the US is, not W, Bill and Hillary Clinton. This group, who Anglachel calls the Whole Food Nation, ran with CDS and Obama.

    Kos and Josh and Co. showed themselves to be nothing but low lives without values and without morality.

    Nevertheless, we should wish Obama success; he is our president.

    not low lifes (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by Salo on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:51:17 AM EST
    just refugee GOP voters who reckoned it was time to put their own imprematur on the left...huffington is a first class example of this process.

    Parent
    And yet the Clinton hating Arianna (5.00 / 12) (#43)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:16:54 AM EST
    who literally spent years on the television political talk trashing everything Clinton, hanging out with Newt, and worshipping Reagan, now is invited as the progressive representative on political talk.

    These are the people that WILL STILL NOT ADMIT that their hero Ronald Reagan was a hawk, an anti worker icon who uses racist codes, an actor who played the role of American hero so he could get away with miserable, rotten, low down support of murdering despots.
    While kos, Arinanna and a few others continue to trash Hillary (and Bill) as the perpetrators of everything evil in American, I have yet to hear any of them recant their hero worship of Reagan.  Neither will the so called anti war Chris Matthews.  While he tries to give himself a halo for his anti war beliefs, he practically drools when mentioning Ronald Reagan.  Not once will any of these sanctimonious, Clinton hater hypocrites acknowledge the truth of how they supported the extreme hawks of our world.  But yet, tsk, tsk, tsk, that damn Hillary is such an awful hawk....

    Parent

    Well, not quite (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Spamlet on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:54:11 AM EST
    If you recall, McCain was beginning to overtake Obama in the polls by early September. What finally "brought us Obama" was not "the upper middle class that reads the NYT and WaPo religiously and decided that it's quite fancy to have a black president," though your point is true enough (Paul Begala was right in what he said about "eggheads and African Americans" being insufficient to elect Obama, and we can add the Left blogs to Begala's tally). Obama owes his election to the collapse of Lehman Brothers.

    Parent
    Yes, but it did bring us (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:57:11 AM EST
    Obama as the nominee, which I think is what Koshembos is talking about.


    Parent
    Agree (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by Spamlet on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:04:26 AM EST
    But then you also have to add the Dean wing of the Democratic Party and the Clinton-hating media into the equation.

    Parent
    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:22:59 PM EST
    Perfect storm.  But let's remember he only barely won the nomination, and that with a big boost from the Dem. establishment.

    Parent
    And if Lehman Brothers (5.00 / 5) (#40)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:08:23 AM EST
    collapsed on January 10th, who knows what Super Tuesday would have brought us. You are right of course, it was the economic meltdown. But now, as I have stated before, I hope he will be a good President and right the wrongs of the last 8 years.I am rooting for him. Hillary is actually a good decision for him because she brings immediate recognition and status to the world of a knowledgeable person who knows what is going on in other countries.

    I thought Condi's high boots and slit skirt were quite stylish but her pictures with the frown were scary. At least the media can not focus on the traveling pant suit lady's wardrobe. People might actually hear what she is saying. I doubt, without looking it up, that few can actually remember many statements from Condi. We will hear Hillary.  

    Parent

    condi (none / 0) (#94)
    by jedimom on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:57:19 PM EST
    the only thing I remember well of Condi is when she was forced to repeat the headline of the report she and Dubyah had and ignored. The one with the "determined to attack in US" headline...that I remember.

    Parent
    Condi (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Spamlet on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 03:22:12 PM EST
    What I will remember about Condi is her being the first member of the Bush junta to go on TV and use that preposterous mixed metaphor about not wanting "the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." That, and her showing up in Crawford a day or two after the election in 2000 to strike her pose in the kabuki photos of "President-elect" George W. Bush and his "cabinet."

    Parent
    When the dust of history (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 03:54:24 PM EST
    clears, I think Condi will go down as one of the most disastrously incompetent national security advisers in history, and as a minimally competent SoS.

    Parent
    For the Primaries, there were two criteria (5.00 / 9) (#37)
    by santarita on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:03:52 AM EST
    for determining progressive "bona fides":  (a) If you did not vote for the Iraq War authorization and (b) If you were not Hillary or Bill Clinton.

    Based on reading diaries and comments at the Big Orange, if you met those two critieria, no further inquiry into positions was required.  To the extent that Obama said something or acted in a way contrary to progressive ideals, he was grranted a pass because they assumed that he was just saying and doing things to get elected and that when he was President, he'd prove to be the progressive President.  Anyone reading his position papers could see that he was not proposing any bold progressive moves.  What he was presenting was bold centrist ideas that seemed progressive after 8 years of  extreme right wing ideology.

    Parent

    Which is why it is so d@mn ironic (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:24:51 AM EST
    Hillary Clinton, who voted for the AUMF, will probably be Obama's Secretary of State.  Her vote for AUMF and for Kyl-Lieberman are the two positions I am uncomfortable with.

    Parent
    Just a couple of points.... (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by NYShooter on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 05:09:16 PM EST
    Re: Hillary's vote on the AUMF; did anyone read the very long, very detailed position paper, or explanation, that accompanied her vote? I don't think that one can deduce, as most critics have, that her vote was simply a knee-jerk, political expediency, finger-in-the-wind decision. You can agree, or disagree, with her judgments, or motives, but you can't say it wasn't, as all her decisions are, well thought out.

    And on Kyl-Lieberman, you do know that Obama had been a sponsor on a virtually identical bill, that Axelrod had pulled, as soon as Kyl-Lieberman was greeted as being pro-war, belligerent, needlessly provocative, etc. This allowed Obama to do a 180, publicly denounce Kyl, (and Hillary) while having sponsored an identical bill which was  quickly buried.


    Parent

    I like what Avedon wrote (none / 0) (#50)
    by talesoftwokitties on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:27:05 AM EST
    Via Lambert at Corrente Here

    Parent
    Change (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by nellre on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:58:34 AM EST
    So Obama's campaign slogan was all about change, and therefore progressive, in my mind.

    So I am confused. Did those who are disappointed in Obama expect a revolution?


    No, not a revolution (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by Spamlet on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:02:12 AM EST
    or a revolutionary. They expected a left-of-center, or even somewhat more leftist, Democrat. In other words, the kind of politician who would, in many parts of the "old" Europe, be considered right of center. (Are we all "old Europeans" now?)

    Parent
    Good point, a politician who is considered (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:28:05 PM EST
    "left of center" in the US, would be considered "right of center" in many parts of Europe, and also Canada.

    Fact is, the US has a more conservative definition of "leftist" than any other Western democracy.

    Parent

    Labels (none / 0) (#44)
    by nellre on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:17:41 AM EST
    You speak of labels, without definition.

    I have always considered myself a centrist, but my conservative son-in-law thinks me leftist.
    Without exact definitions, then, these labels are relative to the opinions held by the observer.

    I want and end to the war in Iraq, resolution in Afghanistan ...closure of Guantanamo and fair trials for the men being held there.
    I want higher minimum wage, universal health care
    I want courts more friendly to protecting civil rights and less friendly to big business
    I want the warrant-less spying to stop, and the perps responsible for it to face justice
    I want the justice department to live up to it's name.

    Obama is taking steps to make all the above happen. What's missing?

    Parent

    FISA (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by jedimom on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 03:00:27 PM EST
    I thought Brennan was likely to be tapped, that would seem to preclude this part of your changes list you indicate are already being worked on:

    I want the warrant-less spying to stop, and the perps responsible for it to face justice

    I concur with your whole list, but I do not believe that a candidate who voted FOR teleco immunity for FISA will stop the FISA program, not at all.

    Parent

    and outspoken support for women's rights at home and abroad; the right to marry for our LGBT community;  affirmative action; a more equal distribution of wealth; an imminent and complete end to the so-called 'war on terror', along with a definitive condemnation of 'preemptive' war; immediate restoration of habeas corpus; prosecution of Bush and his cohorts for endorsing and practicing torture, etc. Obama is lacking, to varying degrees, in his position on all of the foregoing.

    I also want a thoroughly green energy policy, and an end to Obama's support of nuclear power and so-called 'clean-coal technology'. I could go on...

    FWIW, my definition of "leftist" is something akin to democratic socialism; in the manner of Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, and probably Dennis Kuninich.

    Parent

    "I could go on..." (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by nellre on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 06:30:13 PM EST
    Precisely. Which is why it is not likely anybody could satisfy all your requirements... at least as you have articulated them here.

    I consider your list of demands a bit radical. In order for Obama to do all the things you list, it would be, for all intents and purposes, a revolution.

    Parent

    Which items on my list are "radical"? (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 08:13:17 PM EST
    I have no objection to being called "a bit radical" myself. But, my list mostly involves a return to the rule of law (domestic and international); a return to a more just and equitable society; and an expansion of individual rights and liberties. It shouldn't take a revolution to get 'back to the future', so to speak.

    Of course, I don't expect Obama, or any politician, to accomplish most of what I wish for at this point in time. The idea is to spur maximal 'change' by setting the bar very high from the get-go.

    Oh, I forgot, Obama must lift the restrictions on stem-cell research ASAP, like day one.

    Parent

    And an updated, clear definition of the kind of torture Obama was referencing last week on 60 Minutes, when he said:

    "America doesn't torture and I'm gonna make sure we don't torture."


    Parent
    Why is change progressive? (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by lambert on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:59:10 AM EST
    It's like the difference between speed and velocity -- speed is just, well, change. Velocity is change in a given direction.

    That's why "hope but verify" is a wise approach IMSHO -- we need to verify that the change is happening in a way that comports with our interests and values, not just accept that everything's going to be good.

    Parent

    Define good (none / 0) (#118)
    by nellre on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 06:31:29 PM EST
    Please

    Parent
    Shorter version..... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by vicndabx on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:07:50 AM EST
    young white folk thought since Obama was black, he'd surely be cool and want to support all those cool programs to make everything all cool and allow the mothership to come down transport us away to utopian paradise.

    The reality is all black folks are not Russell Simmons and never were.  There are great many centrists among us.

    Well, well (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by lambert on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:06:38 PM EST
    vicndabx writes:

    young white folk thought since Obama was black, he'd surely be cool

    So, it turns out that Obama as "hip black friend" of some youth -- or, as Digby puts it, more politely, Obama as "cultural signifier" -- was right on the money, wasn't it? Now the story can be told, though naturally it was used as part of the racism smear back then.

    Multiple caveats that no, I didn't vote for McCain, yes, I think Obama's election was historic, no, most Obama supporters were clear-eyed about their vote, et cetera, et cetera.

    Just saying that so much of the toxicity of the campaign discouse falls into the category of "The truth that has never been spoken and perhaps can never be said."

    Parent

    Myths (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by TheRealFrank on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:21:15 AM EST
    It's always interesting to see how these things work.

    Obama was always centrist; leaning a little left on some issues, and a little more conservative on others. It was all right there if you bothered to read his plans.

    The same for Clinton. She was to the left of Obama a little on a few issues, but the differences were minor.

    I preferred her because I was turned off by Obama's post-partisan talk, and initial refusal to stand up and defend Democratic principles (fortunately that changed after the convention). But I never had the illusion that what they would try to achieve as president would be wildly different.

    Yet, somehow, the lefty blogs rejected Clinton as an evil neocon, and embraced Obama was a progressive knight in shining armour.

    How did that happen? I think that CDS has something to do with it. All negative things got projected on to Clinton, and, almost as a consequence, all positive things got projected on to Obama.

    In any case, it's funny to watch when people get confronted with reality. I am thrilled with Obama's election. He has the capacity to be a very good president. But I have no illusions about him doing exactly what I want (nor did I have these illusions about Clinton). I just want someone steady who will move things in the right direction.


    Junior High School Theory (5.00 / 7) (#53)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:34:59 AM EST
    Yet, somehow, the lefty blogs rejected Clinton as an evil neocon, and embraced Obama was a progressive knight in shining armour.

    How did that happen? I think that CDS has something to do with it. All negative things got projected on to Clinton, and, almost as a consequence, all positive things got projected on to Obama.

    There was a girl in my junior high school who, for no rational or explicable reason, was targeted as a 'very evil person' to be tormented and bullied. The stories about her were outrageous, silly, and unbelievable - none based in truth, but everyone repeated them anyway, and this was sufficient to put her on the bottom rung of the pecking order for 2-3 years and to encourage incessant bullying of her. What was done to her was horrific, and I sometimes wonder what long-term effect it may have had on her and how she got through it.

    There was no rhyme or reason to it - it was just a narrative that was written, and everyone simply swallowed it and piled on. This is how I see what has happened to Hillary Clinton for several decades now. And my fear about her taking SoS is that I really don't think it's going to stop - ever. The narrative has been written for quite some time on her and it is pretty much set in stone. People love to hate her.

    Parent

    The PRESS loves to hate Hillary... (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:34:53 PM EST
    The PUBLIC? Not so much, considering those 18 million voters.

    Hillary knows she is thoroughly well-loved by a majority of Americans, and pretty much the whole damn WORLD.

    That is what keeps her going.

    Parent

    That's probably true (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 03:11:04 PM EST
    I still don't relish having to listen to this vicious crap about her from the media and the blogs for the next decade (not to mention her having to put up with it).

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by kempis on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 04:22:12 PM EST
    My only hope is that since Hillary earned the genuine respect of a whole lot of people in this country--and the media is increasingly NOT respected, then there may be less Hillary-bashing. Perhaps the growing disgust with the incessant Hillary-bashing at MSNBC and other outlets will reach critical mass and Tweety and others will have to STFU.

    Also, I've noticed that a number of Obama-supporters who previously thought that Hillary was going to "steal teh election!" or possibly "assassinate Obama!"--her being all evil 'n stuff--are now more inclined to be rational about her. Their guy won and they're no longer in battle mode, removing the need to vilify her. And I like to think that the extraordinary class and poise Hillary showed during the GE has embarrassed some of them who had totally lost their frickin' minds and sounded like freepers on bad acid trips from January through June. I hope so, anyway. It hasn't worked for all, but I have noticed that Hillary-hating at Kos is more often met with derision these days--sometimes by people who once were throwing stones, but what they heck; I'll take it.

    So here's hoping that just as Bush-supporters seem increasingly delusional to the greater majority, so will Hillary-haters.

    But I do understand your reservations, Dr. Molly.

    Parent

    Obama should publicly denounce media CDS... (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 05:13:12 PM EST
    Although it was useful to him in the primary, Obama now needs to let the press know that he doesn't condone Clinton-bashing - going forward and all.

    Parent
    Something to potentially look forward to! (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 05:41:06 PM EST
    So here's hoping that just as Bush-supporters seem increasingly delusional to the greater majority, so will Hillary-haters.


    Parent
    I'll drink to that! (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 05:46:36 PM EST
    And what bugs me is WHY??? (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 04:42:04 PM EST
    She has been cautious about them since the 90s and kept the press at arm's length. Can any rational human blame her or Bill for that matter?

    I believe it is guilt.  These bozos, from Matthews to Brian Williams, I believe have blood on their hands.  Because the Clintons dared resent their daily trashing all through the 90s, the jerks went out of their way to trash Al Gore and swooned over W.  

    W was a hawk long before he took office.  He was a known loud mouth alcoholic since youth and all through the 80s (one of our papers just did a "remember when article" on one of his drunken stays here); he failed over and over and suddenly these guys were in love with him and call Al Gore, the Clintons' bathtub ring.

    I still don't get it other than their own guilt over their own stupidity or greed or both.

    Parent

    Another Factor (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:38:42 AM EST
    Is that many younger people identified with Obama, and my guess is that the lefty blogosphere is dominated by younger people.

    Parent
    housing and universal coverage (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by jedimom on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 03:07:05 PM EST
    I found Hill's positions on housing and health care to be far left of Obama. He never supported her plan for a freeze on ARMS (later implemented by Paulosn but too late) or a 90 day moratorium on foreclosures (he is on board with that now, but says still that she was wrong then) The reasoning he uses on both these topics, imo, comes straight form Goolsbee and Fuhrman, two of his UofC, very Freidmanite economic advisers. They were the concern for me in the primaries...

    and of course the universal mandate is HUGE, simply HUGELY different than kids only mandate as Obama proposed. Baucus seems confident he can get Obama to come around to the universal mandate side, so this will be Congress pushing him left which is great.

    And Frank and Pelosi seem to be behind FDIC Sheila Bair's mortgage modification plan which is FAR more helpful to the homeowners than anything Obama has on change.org right now..

    so in both cases where I wanted more 'left' change, we seem to be getting that direction from our Congressional leaders anyway

    a win/win, but I think those folks who thought Obama was a far left neolib are going to be simply shocked when he doesnt end FISA and I have doubts about Gitmo still...

    Parent

    Finally someone addressing those (none / 0) (#97)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 03:10:27 PM EST
    Univ. of Chicago econ. advisors.  Rumor has it Goolsbee et al. will be in the Obama admin. somewhere advising him on cures for the economic woes.

    Parent
    Question (none / 0) (#58)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:46:57 AM EST
    Has it ever occured to you that "Clinton was to the left of Obama a little on a few issues and to the right of Obama on a few issues instead of just "The same for Clinton. She was to the left of Obama a little on a few issues, but the differences were minor".

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#60)
    by TheRealFrank on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:53:52 AM EST
    That could well be the case. What's your point?


    Parent
    Here is the Point! (none / 0) (#80)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:52:44 PM EST
    The point is to throw a wrench in the group think arguments that have consistently emerged from TL commenters, i.e. all support of HRC in the primaries was based on careful considerations of progressive issues while support of Obama was mostly motivated by "CDS", "sexism", MSM and blogosphere generated emotions and not a careful review of policies and other factors.


    Parent
    I'll speak up (5.00 / 5) (#92)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:35:46 PM EST
    I do not buy the soothing idea that Hillary and Obama held essentially the same views, a little to the right here, a little to the left there.

    The Hillary who emerged a few primaries into the process when she so famously "found her voice" was well to the left of Obama in her whole approach, and unashamedly so.

    That still makes her only center-left from my perspective, but I'll always take that over Obama's rather vague but essentially center-right posture.

    Unfortunately, a great many Obama supporters in the media and the blogs were and remain deeply afflicted by CDS.  Whether they would have supported Obama in the primaries if Hillary wasn't there to hate on, I have no idea, and neither do you.

    Fact remains, Obama was the least "progressive" Dem. candidate if you throw out Richardson (and please do!), yet the "progressives" swarmed to him.  My feeling at any rate is that the two major reasons for that were Digby's "cultural affinity" idea and CDS.

    And, um, the fact that a lot of us here agree on that doesn't actually mean we're wrong.

    Parent

    OMG! (none / 0) (#109)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 05:07:47 PM EST
    Gyrfalcon, it seems that you were not paying attention to what the candidates said during the primaries! HRC was postively to the right of Obama on foreign policy. It is ludicrous to say that she was not. Please give Obama some credit for saying something unthinkably bold in American politics that went against the stultified foreign policy dogma of the Clintons! Obama said that he was absolutely willing to talk to leaders of countries that successive Bush and Clinton administrations have labelled as "rogue nations" (as if the action of 1 dictator made an entire country "rogue!), he said that the "nuke option" was off the table if it came to dealing with Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan (Obama would just take him out by other means). Hillary lampooned Obama for saying these things during the primaries.
    The litmus test of progressivism is not just seeking legislation for mandates to achieve UHC coverage! Many progressives had good reasons to find the war mongering posturing of HRC pretty offensive. Please be informed that the Clinton administration did not follow a particularly progressive foreign policy in the eight years that preceded GWB taking office (please check UN reports of [children deaths] in Iraq because of Clinton administration policies).
    Gyrfalcon, support of policies that lead to deaths of children outside America or talk about "obliterating" countries may not bother you; however, it is extremely arrogant in my opinion, to suggest that it should not have bothered anyone else!


    Parent
    I have a problem with sanctions that (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 05:40:21 PM EST
    bring hardship to the civilian population of any given country.

    That being said, I don't entirely trust the motives of some people who've begun highlighting the number of Iraqi children who died while Bill Clinton's administration sanctioned Iraq.

    If the issue is truly about the deaths of Iraqi children, why not shine an even harsher light on the number of Iraqi children/civilians who died during the previous Iraq war under Bush the Elder; and those who've died in the current war under Bush the Younger.  

    Parent

    Your suspicions are misplaced (none / 0) (#116)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 06:00:54 PM EST
    John Pilger has already done that. Please read his [articles] on Iraq.

    Parent
    I'm familiar with Iraqi war civilian death stats (none / 0) (#119)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 06:52:41 PM EST
    I'm saying that I generally mistrust people who've recently begun to focus on Iraqi child fatalities attributed to sanctions during Bill Clinton's administration.

    In part, because I don't recall hearing much about it at the time, or during the past 8 years. Chatter on the subject seems to have picked up since Hillary was floated as a prospect for SoS.

    Parent

    Truth be told (none / 0) (#131)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 08:13:54 PM EST
    The "chatter" has always existed among people who get their news from newspapers but are not always breathlessly in awe of anything that the Clintons do unlike a lot of commenters in TL!
    :-). If you did not recall hearing much about it during the Clinton years, it was primarily because the MSM (or television media) was hardly as opposed to the Clintons as some of you love to imagine.
    I have supported HRC for SoS as a couple of my previous posts indicate. However, that should be no reason to buy Gyrfalcon's fairy tale that HRC has been "unashamedly" to the left of Obama on every issue.

    Parent
    give Obama time (none / 0) (#121)
    by Salo on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 07:38:09 PM EST
    he'll kill millions

    Parent
    Complete non sequitur (none / 0) (#126)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 08:03:12 PM EST
    Wow (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 07:58:07 PM EST
    First of all, Hillary Clinton is not Bill Clinton.

    Secondly, you wildly distort, as most Obama-philes do, what she said about meeting with foreign leaders and also about "obliterating" Iran.

    Typical.

    What she objected to-- entirely rightly-- was Obama saying he personally as president would meet face to face with hostile foreign leaders like Ahmadinejad, which is frankly simply ludicrous.  He clearly did not mean to say that and has not repeated it but has walked way, way back from it in everything he's said since then.  It was simply a gaffe, and she pounced on it.

    She herself has said from the beginning that she would absolutely deal with these countries, but of course, not fly off for summits without proper preparation.  She has, in fact, always been exactly, precisely where Obama is (now that he's thought about it) on this issue.

    Secondly, the "obliterate Iran" comment -- as you really should know if you don't -- was in response to a question about what she'd do if Iran dropped a nuke on Israel.  It was actually a superb response and I hope Obama wakes up and makes it the policy of the U.S.  A forcefully and repeatedly stated "nuclear umbrella" is what will keep Israel safe in case some genuine nutjob gets actual control in Iran some day.  (That said, I don't think short of that that Iran is in any way a threat to Israel or the U.S. or anybody else, but even Obama can't get away with saying that politically.)

    How sad.  You apparently voted without having actually paid attention.  What a load of **.

    Oh, and btw, Obama was in favor of labeling the Iran Republican Guard or whatever it was a "terrorist" organization.  Wake up, please.

    Describing HRC's foreing policy posture "warmongering" is among the most ridiculous manifestations of CDS.

    Parent

    I will defend your right to believe (none / 0) (#133)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:42:18 PM EST
    whatever keeps you happy and provides you solace even if what you wrote does not make any sense to me (which includes your belief that Obama actually said that he would "fly off for summits without proper preparation"). I am not a big believer in the -You have no soul, Vladimir- and -You have no head, Hillary- kind of diplomacy or the school of foreign policy that does not rule out the use of nukes on an entire country to flush out a single terrorist or a number of terrorist cells. And naive me, I even believe that if Iran gets nuked in retaliation to Israel getting nuked, the radiation fallout will not just be limited to Iran and Israel (bad in itself) but a bunch of other countries in the Middle East and South Asia that HRC wanted to bring under her "nuclear umbrella". I also believe that if a "genuine religious nutjob" came to power in Iran, he would not be deterred from nuking Israel by threats of nuclear retaliation simply because if he is mad enough to want to nuke another country, it is more than likely that he would not fear death or armageddon but be motivated by it. You see, some of these religious nutjobs really subscribe to grand visions of "martyrdom"! The only way to normalize relations with Iran will be to challenge its younger and more progressive sections (and the dreamer in me really believes that Obama has the potential to wow students at Tehran University) of society to engage with America in building a better world. But again, this is my way of thinking and you obviously have yours!  

    Parent
    Never much heard Obama (none / 0) (#134)
    by zyx on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:12:23 PM EST
    talk about American foreign policy that causes death of foreign children.

    He seems awfully detached about that kind of thing. Can you come up with any specific examples?

    Parent

    Has anyone dared to mention (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Jake Left on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:08:35 PM EST
    that one reason that so many felt Obama was going to be an ultra liberal is racism? So many suburban liberals don't really know that many African Americans. The are anti-bigotry and pro-civil rights. But they still sort of lump all people of color together. Obama is a smart, attractive, hip black man, so he must be a raging liberal -- right?  It's not the worst sort of racism, but it can get us do-good liberals into trouble. My black friends tell me that the same thing exists in their community.

    I agree with BTD here. I just hope he will be a good President. So far the indications are that he cad be just that.

    You mean (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by andgarden on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:13:32 PM EST
    did some white liberals think they were getting Jesse Jackson with a smile? I'll bet some did.

    Parent
    Obama was sold as Jesse Jackson w/o the anger... (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:41:46 PM EST
    Axelrod et al, are on record talking about the importance of Onama not coming across as an "angry" black man.

    Parent
    Hmm, if anything, I would think the (none / 0) (#75)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:29:06 PM EST
    opposite, if I were going to infer anything about the implication of Obama's race.

    Parent
    It's racism if you (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jake Left on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 01:45:16 PM EST
    assume something about someone because of the color of his skin.

    Are you saying that because of his race, you would think of Obama as a conservative?

    Parent

    I'm saying that political exigencies (none / 0) (#87)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:14:27 PM EST
    in the US would necessitate that a black candidate be MORE conservative than a comparable white candidate, to get elected. I think the last election bore me out. Obama was slightly more conservative than Hillary, but he was considered much more liberal by many; I think this was due to his race.
    I could be wrong, but it's not racism, because I don't think (well, I just don't know) if black people are more or less conservative than the general public.

    Parent
    But A Woman (none / 0) (#88)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:20:12 PM EST
    Can run as more liberal? I disagree. THe difference between H and O was negligible. Eight years of right wing nonsense made it a shoe in for the dems.

    Parent
    You just agreed with me (none / 0) (#136)
    by Jake Left on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 09:12:32 AM EST
    on all points but calling it racism. If someone prejudges someone because of their race, that's racism. If someone acts as though someone's race is the primary determinant for traits and behaviors, that's racism.

    We seem to agree that many believed Obama to be very liberal despite his record and position statements just because he was black. I agree that Hillary was the more liberal of the two.

    Parent

    I think Obama will probably put (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by lilburro on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:35:24 PM EST
    some progressive foreign policy people throughout his administration, not at the top but near the top.  Spencer Ackerman wrote about what Clinton as SoS means - I am not clear on what it means yet - in this article Will Clinton Fill State Dept. With Loyalists?

    Now why would Obama appoint someone like Brennan as CIA Director?  ...Because he attached himself like a leech to Obama's campaign?  I think that appt is completely unnecessary and will cause him trouble on the left, possibly even from the Democrats in Congress.  But some people on the left still want to defend Brennan because he could be competent and there are few competent people out there.  Regardless of the assumption that someone from that era of the administration is actually competent it disturbs me that people just won't draw a line.  Torture is wrong, the people who supported it are wrong, and it needs to be investigated.  That seems pretty simple.  And that is putting aside the trend of intelligence outsourcing that Brennan represents and that you can read about in Spies for Hire.

    OK gone off the deep end, again...

    The us is indecline (none / 0) (#122)
    by Salo on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 07:40:35 PM EST
    more war
    More murder are the likely results.

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by JamesTX on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 01:05:03 PM EST
    you are right that

    ...influential progressive factions committed themselves early, loyally and enthusiastically to Obama even though he never even courted that support, let alone made commitments to secure it.

    It is because of the breakdown in the understanding of debate and dissent -- the limits placed on reasoning by the conservative movement.

    The Obama groupies performed well, but the reason is that we are left with an electorate which understands no other political strategy than blind support and enforcement of group conformity (Republican, conservative values at their core, which is the only strategy they have ever understood or participated in). They even went through a phase of putting out some half-hearted rhetoric in response to critical questions with answers like, "when I first started looking at this election, I felt that way, too. Then, I found Barack". You only got one chance to come around, and then they started beating you about the head and neck and telling you that you were "way uncool". This was good, solid, rock-star politics, but you can't blame the people for not doing what they have basically lost the ability to do -- think critically.

    I had never read your Guardian stuff (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 01:14:48 PM EST
    What is so puzzling about the responses from those that disagreed with you (I'm guessing - because they provided no actual argument) was that they simply attempted to smear you.  Nobody addressed what you wrote about.  One poster even praised Obama for not going with "the herd mentality" on Iraq which they used to justify their own herd mentality on supporting Obama. I know it's just me, but that is BIZARRE. Digby's post is excellent.

    "worst blogger ever!" (5.00 / 6) (#100)
    by Fabian on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 03:41:29 PM EST
    That's what I get for reading the comments to Sirota's post.  

    The bloggers I like the most are the most consistent.  The bloggers I like the least are like weather vanes - if you want to know which way the wind is blowing, just check their latest post.

    How do you get to be this particular commenter's WBE! ?  Just refuse to jump on every passing bandwagon.  

    Also interesting in the comments was the idea that it is never a good time to pressure Obama.  First let's get him elected!  Can't we wait until after the Inauguration?  ....  then it will be always be too soon and there will always be some milestone to be passed.  I'm sure by February, someone will proclaim that we can't expect the Democrats to do anything risky until after the 2010 midterm elections.

    I take the opposite POV.  Pressure any and all politicians ALL OF THE TIME.  

    Obama was always transparent (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by pluege on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 04:31:00 PM EST
    It was always the Obamafans in their fantasy recreation of Obama as something he surely is not - progressive, that were, and continue to be whacked.

    Actually (3.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Pepe on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:27:01 AM EST
    the so called morons (BTD's word, not mine) are those on the Left that blindly supported Obama.

    That would include Markos who "urged that progressives refrain from endorsing or supporting any of the Democratic candidates unless they work for that support" - and then turned around and supported Obama without getting Obama to work for that support! And it would also include, among others, BTD who did the same as Markos did. An unintended mea culpa perhaps?

    Hardly (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:29:12 AM EST
    Obama took the policy posiitons I believe in. He gave me what I wanted.

    I am a Centrist.

    My objections were on political style and I nver shut up about those until Obama started to deliver at the Democratic Convention and beyond.

    But some "morons" do not care about facts.

    Parent

    Facts are great (1.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Pepe on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:44:29 AM EST
    if they are stated. I don't see any in your post. Nor do I see links to past posts of yours that you are so good at producing when you want to, or when you can.

    What I do remember, and that you reminded all of us about this morning, is you supported Obama because the media liked him and that there was not a dimes worth of difference in policies between Obama and Clinton (which I already addressed this morning in another thread as incorrect).

    Well given your belief that there was no policy difference between the two (which is incorrect) then policy was not the determining factor for you. It was that he was the media darling. Media, not policy is what drove your support for him - in your own words. Your words. It doesn't take a moron to understand what you keep writing.

    As for the convention - you actually fell for the last minute Hail Mary that was not part of his rhetoric for two years? Gees. Gullible.

    Parent

    Your ignorance of what I wrote is manifest.

    Among your other areas of ignorance.

    Parent

    Every time I read this comment (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:31:41 PM EST
    I laugh and think--how restrained.

    Parent
    Well still no links (2.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Pepe on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:35:56 AM EST
    that you seem able to produce at will when you want to or when you can. I'll take the absence of them as an absence of them.

    As for ignorance...

    Did you not state that you had no idea what the Secretary of Commerce did the other day? Would that qualify as ignorance by definition? Yup.

    Did you not state that you don't know anything about health care in the last 10 days? Would that qualify as ignorance by definition? Yup, by definition it would.

    Have you not stated the lack of knowledge on many other things also, or posted that you were wrong on something that you previously wrote? Yup.

    Now I reluctantly bring those things up only to highlight that people who call others names should look in the mirror at themselves from time to time.

    You know one of the best lessons my father ever taught me was to not call people names because it showed that the person who was doing the name calling was an ignorant person. Ignorant because their name calling showed a lack an education sufficient enough to be able to express themselves in a more civilized way. Ignorant because their name calling showed a lack of socially accepted behavior. Ignorant because it showed a personal lack of values and mutual respect for others. Ignorant because it was the only way some people can get attention.

    That is what my father taught me. I'm proud that he did. Please take the lessons of my father because he was a very wise man.

    Parent

    Actually your father (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:40:29 AM EST
    apparently did not teach you much.

    You have to be kidding.

    It just occurs to me that this is Talex returned.

    Had everyone already figured this out and forgotten to tell me?

    Parent

    Lol (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by squeaky on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:49:53 AM EST
    Good point. I stopped reading Talex because it felt like playing in quicksand, and have had the exact same reaction to Pepe.

    Parent
    That was my assumption from the very beginning (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by andgarden on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:59:00 AM EST
    But did Talex ever write about (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:12:46 PM EST
    the Gators?

    Parent
    My father taught me plenty (2.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Pepe on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:11:46 PM EST
    You'll not find me calling people names to express myself. I may disagree with others in the same way they may disagree with me but at least I'll disagree with them using arguments that don't stoop to name calling.

    Talex? No idea what you are talking about. Perhaps a banned poster who disliked name calling too? I got news for you, there are a lot of people here who don't like your name calling. It is just that many don't have the courage to say so. And for those who do like your name calling, I feel sorry for them.

    If your wondering why I am giving you a bit of a stick in the ribs today it is because of your behavior and because you are wrong on the things I posted about. Last week after more of your name calling and snide comments to me you admitted that you were purposely goading me. So such behavior is just a game to you? This is your personal fantasy land where you can disrespect others without need for dental work? LOL. Whatever floats your boat. I'm certain you don't display such behavior in face to face interaction. Why here only a professional could tell you.

    I'm done with the back and forth with you today. And I didn't expect you to change. But I made my point without calling you names only to receive the expected in return.

    Parent

    Had Axelrod re-upped on the troll funding? (none / 0) (#72)
    by lambert on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:21:18 PM EST
    Because I'm getting new ones, too.

    Parent
    Obama knew he had... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Salo on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:16:47 AM EST
    about 20percent sewn up without a single promise. Which is disturbing...normally a pol has to beg the public.

    Yep (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:27:47 AM EST
    Of course I was the a-hole who kept pointing this out during the primaries.

    Course, Obama basically agreed with me on every issue so I had no POLICY complaints. I had political style complaints. But as I wrote below, circumstances have mooted my objections.

    Parent

    Whaddaya mean, "the"? (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by lambert on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:08:43 PM EST
    There were other a-holes too! Not many, I grant!

    Parent
    Obama is only beginning (none / 0) (#3)
    by NMvoiceofreason on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:25:12 AM EST
    to understand the capability he has at his disposal. Imagine, hundreds of thousands of ideas to change America, linked in a database with hundreds of thousand of volunteers excited about those ideas, linked to the representatives and senators involved in legislation in those areas, linked to the legislation itself, linked to the millions of people who voted for him....

    He will transform governance. Believe it.

    Uh, I don't (5.00 / 9) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:25:54 AM EST
    I just want him to be a good President.

    Parent
    Two things that are not the same (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by lambert on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:27:48 PM EST
    1. Transforming governance

    2. Good government

    Bush transformed governance by replacing Constitutional government with authoritarian rule.  Obama's FISA vote is the only real evidence I have about his views on governance, and therefore, so far, I am not encouraged.


    Parent
    Wouldn't it be nice if people could comment? (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by lambert on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:11:40 PM EST
    Right now, user suggestions go into a black hole.

    Color me unenthused about Obama's database unless (a) it doesn't serve as a fundraising device, (b) it doesn't serve as a recruiting tool. Until then, it's the digital equivalent of Bush's rallies that only his supporters could get into.

    How about we not reduce power structures to technical solutions, eh? I can "imagine" several scenarios where this humongous database turns out very badly indeed.


    Parent

    Other than the fact that it is differnt... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 10:32:20 AM EST
    ...explain to me why this would be so great?

    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#102)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 03:54:55 PM EST
    it would be modern and cool and use the internet and old people couldn't participate cuz they don't know how to email. And, you know, that must mean it would be good, doesn't it?  /snark

    Parent
    ha ha, the truth is.... (none / 0) (#120)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 07:19:38 PM EST
    ...old folks wouldn't participate because they know that their are better ways to get people to pay attention to your ideas!

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    Wouldn't it be nice if people could comment? (none / 0) (#68)
    by lambert on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 12:11:48 PM EST
    Right now, user suggestions go into a black hole.

    Color me unenthused about Obama's database unless (a) it doesn't serve as a fundraising device, (b) it doesn't serve as a recruiting tool. Until then, it's the digital equivalent of Bush's rallies that only his supporters could get into.

    How about we not reduce power structures to technical solutions, eh? I can "imagine" several scenarios where this humongous database turns out very badly indeed.


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    This thread got out of control (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Nov 25, 2008 at 11:10:33 PM EST
    and user dmz or whoever led the insults and name calling. I erased all 20 of his comments and banned him. This blog does not allow name-calling or personal attacks.

    it was dmd76 (none / 0) (#138)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Nov 25, 2008 at 11:12:23 PM EST
    who got banned and erased. I don't even know what the argument was about, I saw the name-calling and personal attacks and zapped them.

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