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By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:00:22 PM EST
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    Sunday Open Thread | 41 comments (41 topical)

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    SNL confirms it: Olbermann is a Hack (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Exeter on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:27:50 PM EST
    Just as Joe McCarthey was ultimately brought down from members of his own party, Keith was finally brought down by left-leaning SNL with an impeccable impersonation by liberal Ben Affleck.

    I didn't watch the whole youtube (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Fabian on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:50:36 PM EST
    but what I saw (the first bit) was spot on.   Keith "Mister Shrill" Olbermann.

    Parent
    We (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by zvs888 on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 03:28:34 PM EST
    Always knew he was a hack.

    But the left has needed people like that.  The right wingers have dominated the "shrill market" for the past decade or so.  About time lefties evened the playing field.

    Besides, it means he's become a big enough fish to fry.  That is easily proven by the fact that he and Maddow are at least matching or beating CNN and Fox some of the time in the 25-54 demo.

    Parent

    But the left has needed people like that. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Burned on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 04:13:44 PM EST
    Then the left acts like the right.
    Not my cup of tea.

    Parent
    I can't think of anyone who needs (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by nycstray on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 04:16:45 PM EST
    his hack work!

    Parent
    I have to admit (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Burned on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 04:47:17 PM EST
    When he first started in on the right, when he got loud when no one else was, it gave me a thrill. Then he started posting about himself on Dkos. He started to sound stupid. He made me feel stupid for listening.
    Downhill from there.

    Parent
    As long as it dosnt (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:40:15 AM EST
    think like the Right.

    What's the alternative when people dont read (or engage in other related secular activities) and there are strategically placed bully pulpit demogogues ranting and scare-mongeriong in every major city in the U.S.

    And, of course, we all know if Olbermann had done his schtick for Hillary you'd all still love him.

    Parent

    Idiots and Airheads for Hillary? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Fabian on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:32:31 PM EST
    Thanks, but really no thanks.

    Hillary and Bill can speak, well and convincingly, for themselves.  It might have been wryly amusing to see if Joe Klein would come slinking up and try to ingratiate himself with them like he's done with Obama.  There is plenty of dark humor to be found watching the various media lap dogs working to seek favor with the next administration.

    Parent

    Yay for the advertisers! (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Fabian on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 05:34:00 PM EST
    I want advocates who can't be written off as inaccurate, ridiculously biased blowhards whose chief concerns seem to be their egos and their ratings.

    Al Franken had a stellar radio show.  If only someone wanted to follow that model instead of people like Limbaugh and O'Reilly.

    Parent

    I really don't understand that thinking (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by ruffian on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 06:52:19 PM EST
    Why does the left need spokespeople that no one respects?

    Parent
    It's about validating our egos (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Fabian on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 07:20:24 PM EST
    and opinions, not informing or enlightening us.

    It's a Rally The Troops mechanism.  It's about emotion, not information.  

    Parent

    The worst presidents. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by lentinel on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:48:22 PM EST
    In todays' UK Times online, there is a list of the best and worst U.S. presidents in the opinion of the contributors to the article.

    It was eye-opening to me to read about Martin Van Buren, who is listed as one of the very worst.

    The description of Van Buren follows:

    "Served as Andrew Jackson's Vice President and made it clear he wanted a continuation of many of his predecessor's policies, including the expulsion of Native Americans from their homelands. The draconian Indian Removal Act was passed by Jackson but brutally enforced under Van Buren."

    "I found it hard to place high up on the list those who sanctioned the slaughter of Native Americans." Tom Baldwin, Washington bureau chief.

    I had not heard of the "Indian Removal Act". In a link to an article written in 1838 and published in the Times, it describes it as a forced removal of the native Americans from their homelands.
    It reads:
    "The expulsion of this people, however, from the homes of their fathers - a people all of whom are civilized, and many of whom ara educated and highly intelligent Christians, is a dark spot on the American escocheon. Future generations will attach to the act the ignominy it justly merits. "

    I would say that on the contrary, future generations have completely ignored this and erased it from our consciousness. I know I was never taught about it.

    It will be interesting if some day an American of native American descent could rise to a position of political power and ascend to the Presidency.

    I live in Georgia now, near (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by kenosharick on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 04:54:23 PM EST
    where much of this travesty took place. Creek and Cherokee were "removed" from this area in what is well known as the "Trail of Tears." If you are interested, Google that term and you can find a number of good books on the subject.

    Parent
    I wish I could unplug the phone (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Fabian on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:56:49 PM EST
    until Wednesday.

    I pay attention.  I inform myself.  Then I get hit with total utter cr@p marketing and robocalls and "Be AFRAID!" mailers.  I go from feeling smart and educated to royally PO'd at the idiotic emotional rhetoric.  

    I'd flip the bird if I only knew who I should be flipping off.  

    Truly a historical, change election (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by ruffian on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 06:48:23 PM EST
    That must be why we had such a diverse lineup on the Sunday chat shows the last Sunday before the election:  19 white men, plus 3 women, and 3 African - Americans.  That does not sound as bad as it is until you realize that 2 of the African - Americans are also women.  Score: White males - 19  Other -   4

    I know, I would have been whining just as bad if Claire McCaskill had been on.  But doesn't she deserve as much of a chance to promise Republican cabinet members as  John Kerry?

    (NBC) Meet the Press:

    • Fred Thompson
    • Sen. John Kerry (D-MA)
    • Washington Post's David Broder
    • NBC's David Gregory
    • NPR's Michele Norris
    • NBC political director Chuck Todd

    (CBS) Face the Nation:
    • Obama strategist David Axelrod
    • Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
    • Sen. John Ensign (R-NV)
    • Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY)

    (ABC) This Week:
    • Obama strategist David Axelrod
    • McCain manager Rick Davis
    • Time's Mark Halperin
    • Democratic strategist Donna Brazile
    • former Bush strategist Matthew Dowd
    • Washington Post's George Will.

    Fox News Sunday:
    • McCain manager Rick Davis
    • Obama manager David Plouffe
    • Karl Rove
    • Brit Hume, Fox News Washington Managing Editor
    • Mara Liasson, National Public Radio & Fox News
    • Bill Kristol, Weekly Standard & Fox News
    • Juan Williams, National Public Radio & Fox News
    I was looking for the wild eyed liberals. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Fabian on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 07:23:47 PM EST
    The closest I could come was Schumer.

    Lousy minority representation, for sure.

    What's the Villagers versus Outsiders count?

    Parent

    Reading those lists - (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by liminal on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 09:04:19 PM EST
    I think they hit critical mass of villages, around 157% (cos some of them count bonus), with -7.8% Outsiders.  

    Can't we have more than the same five people on television news in this country?

    Parent

    Good point also (none / 0) (#32)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 06:28:53 AM EST
    It will be interesting to see if there are any shake-ups in the coming weeks. My bet is on NO.

    Parent
    I don't see why there should be. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Fabian on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:03:53 AM EST
    These are Somerby calls "career liberals" and "career conservatives".   They know what it takes to keep those media invitations coming and they do it even if it means keeping quiet when they should be speaking up.

    Parent
    PPP promises fresh data (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:04:59 PM EST
    from North Carolina, Ohio, Florida, Indiana, Missouri, Nevada, Montana, Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Virginia by tomorrow.

    Oh, and the PA GOP (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:07:04 PM EST
    went Wright there too.

    Wright ad (none / 0) (#11)
    by caseyOR on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 03:12:57 PM EST
    I saw a GOP attack ad using Wright on TV here in Oregon. I don't understand why. It seems like a major waste of $$$ to run McCain ads here. We are not even close to being a battleground state.

    Parent
    I think they're national ads (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by nycstray on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 04:15:05 PM EST
    they were running here last night and I doubt we were the target audience  ;)

    Parent
    Same here in Fla. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Amiss on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 10:30:37 PM EST
    One thing for sure, we can always count on the Republicans dragging every piece of dirt out they can in the last few days of an election.

    Parent
    New Ras PA (none / 0) (#4)
    by TheRealFrank on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:29:25 PM EST
    52-46. They had 51-47 Thursday, and 53-46 last week.

    It seems that McCain has scared the wavering conservative leaners back to him, but isn't making up more ground than that.

    Yup (none / 0) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:31:03 PM EST
    That's good enough. "The Mac" is too late.

    Parent
    PEW (none / 0) (#8)
    by TheRealFrank on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:50:51 PM EST
    RV: 50(52) - 39(38)

    When they apply their LV model (they didn't do this in their previous polls) and push leaners, they have 52-46, which is in line with the trackers.

    Who will be working the election on Tuesday? (none / 0) (#13)
    by scribe on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 04:07:35 PM EST
    My alter ego will be in a PA precinct as an outside observer.

    What about you?

    Believe it or not (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by CoralGables on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 09:03:39 PM EST
    I will be showing up bright and early Tuesday morning for....jury duty. Sounds like a good day for the courts to be closed to me.

    Parent
    I hope it isn't too long of a night (none / 0) (#21)
    by lilburro on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 05:46:36 PM EST
    for you.  I'm worried about the amount of people that will show up to the polls in PA all in one day.

    Are you in eastern or western PA?

    Parent

    Me, too (none / 0) (#22)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 06:04:14 PM EST
    in Philly

    Parent
    Systemic Voter Suppression (none / 0) (#15)
    by jsj20002 on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 04:14:14 PM EST
    I am a resident of the northern part of Michigan's lower peninsula.  While I believe our Secretary of State, a Republican elected official, has done an excellent job of administering elections, there are a few systemic problems that I fear suppress the turnout of younger voters, who in our state are overwhelmingly Democratic.  We have an excellent motor voter law that automatically registers voters when they apply for a drivers license, but only if they are over age 18 when they first apply. Most younger drivers receive a drivers license when they are 16 and their licenses have a side view photograph. They don't generally apply for a new drivers license until they reach age 21 so they can obtain the full face photograph that is needed to purchase alcoholic beverages.  So even if they do not change their address, once they reach age 18, unlike everyone over age 21, they must affirmatively register to vote. This problem is compounded for voters 18 to 21 if they are away from home attending college or serving in the military.  If they register by mail, they cannot obtain absentee ballots without appearing in person at their local elections clerk.  If they cannot return home, while they can register to vote at their college residence, they may be challenged as non-residents of the township in which their college is located.  The problem is that we insist on very accurate voter residence information to prevent voters from voting in the wrong township. That is probably fine if all you care about is the election for township clerk or township treasurer.  But the effort that has been made to ensure the township election is fair has the "unintended" result of preventing the voter who cannot prove his township residency from voting for any elective offices at all, including the President and U.S. Senate, even if it is clear beyond doubt that the voter is a U.S. citizen and Michigan resident.  Since younger voters, particularly college students and military recruits, are much more mobile than the general population, there is a systematic bias that tends to inhibit them from voting by placing obstacles in their way that are not faced by older voters. In our state, the systemic bias favors the Republicans.        

    Since this affects all 18 year olds, (none / 0) (#23)
    by tootired on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 06:06:02 PM EST
    how does it have a Republican bias?

    Parent
    Do the math. (none / 0) (#33)
    by jsj20002 on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 07:22:29 AM EST
    If more 18 to 21 year olds are D than R, the suppression of voting by their age group will result in less total votes for the D's than for the R's than would have been the case if there had been no systematic voter suppression.

    Parent
    Does Frank Rich (none / 0) (#31)
    by lilburro on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 05:33:40 AM EST
    never tire of applauding his own liberal sensibility?  His editorials are a complete waste of paper.  He peddles Drudge.  He's been completely in the bag for Obama from the beginning but I haven't learned a single thing from him.  And now we get a cute op-ed that plays on "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" and suggests that some white liberals are never going to understand the awesomeness of Obama like Frank Rich, because they are presumably too stupid.

    If there is a fundamental difference between Dowd and Rich, I don't see it.

    Should I bother to read it? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Fabian on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:05:31 AM EST
    Or should I read Somerby first so I can just nod sagely instead of wanting to bang my head against a well.

    Parent
    Meh (none / 0) (#36)
    by lilburro on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:17:53 AM EST
    It isn't that terrible.  It's just annoying.

    Parent
    It's more "Gag me with a spoon!" (none / 0) (#38)
    by Fabian on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:26:31 PM EST
    delivered in the true Valley (Village) Girl style.

    He fawns over Obama and his campaign, which IMO was not "brilliant".  Obama's fund raising was stunning, his campaign was not.  Rich talks a bit about race relations which Obama will probably have less impact on than many black athletes, entertainers and artists.   After all, most blacks who broke the race barrier were truly stars in their fields.  Obama is just Some Politician, much like Wilbur was Some Pig.  

    (I wouldn't mind Obama following Charlotte's Web plot where Wilbur honors the friend who did so much for him by carrying on her fine work.)

    Plus the final conclusion that America is tired of divisive politics isn't true.  America is tired of being used, abused and scr*wed over by the politicians who claim that they are acting in our interests.  I remember one recent NPR interview with a male Catholic who basically said that he'd come to the conclusion that no progress was going to be made on the abortion front (he's an older voter) and so he was voting for Social Justice instead.  ..the wisdom to know the difference....

    Right now, Obama is not nearly as significant or change inspiring as his press releases claim.  He could live up to this image, or not.  To borrow from Condi Rice, history will judge.

    Parent

    I think you (none / 0) (#40)
    by lilburro on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:57:53 PM EST
    underestimate the impact a President Obama will have upon race relations.  Do you really think Obama is NOT a star in his field?  Just by virtue of running he will increase AA turnout...and that might pave the way for increased political involvement in the AA community.  Which is really only good news for all (esp. Dem leaning) Americans.  

    I have a tendency to believe the "divisive politics" thing is vague and pretty meaningless.  But the ad Dole put up against Kay Hagan here in NC makes me think otherwise.  The Republicans are lying with unmatched zest this year.  It's gotten to the point where something needs to be done - universal ban on robocalls, something.  It's too ugly.  Hagan is 5 points ahead of Dole, Obama is only 1 point ahead of McCain in NC.  There is definitely some late movement to Hagan because people are sick of divisive politics and negative campaigning.  All the papers have called out Dole.  People are united in disgust.  

    Rich is cozy in his own narrative.  It amazes me that you can just say whatever you want and get paid for it...while Paul Krugman toils away.  Oh well - only one of them has a Nobel Prize, for a reason!

    Parent

    The Right has always done this. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Fabian on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 04:29:07 PM EST
    When I think of Reagan's "welfare queens", I wonder how he got a pass on that.  That wasn't slamming just an opponent, that was smearing everyone who found themselves on public assistance.  That's more appalling to me than dirty attacks on a political opponent.  (That cr@p will always be with us.)

    A real test will be not the rhetoric used against an opponent, but rhetoric used to slam people based on race, gender, ethnicity, so forth and so on.

    If President Obama causes "bros before hos" to vanish, that would be something to celebrate.  I don't think that's asking for much.

    Parent

    BTW - Somerby (none / 0) (#42)
    by Fabian on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 04:56:43 PM EST
    went to town on Rich.

    By the end, Rich was as full of fictional narratives as Brooks or Dowd.  Ouch.

    The only problem is that Somerby doesn't have the distribution of those three.  So in the epic battle between fact and fiction, fiction keeps winning.

    Parent

    Sunday Open Thread | 41 comments (41 topical)

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