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Clinton And Obama On Iran

Some folks are arguing that there are a great deal of differences between Obama and Clinton on Iran. This is false, as was demonstrated when this silliness came up during the primaries. Consider this:

Before the Kyl-Lieberman amendment was introduced, Obama cosponsored a bill that called for the IRGC to be designated as "a Foreign Terrorist Operation." Obama was one of 72 cosponsors of the Iran Counter-Proliferation Act, which states (in part):

Iran Counter-Proliferation Act: The Secretary of State should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a Foreign Terrorist Organization ... and the Secretary of the Treasury should place the Iranian Revolutionary Guards on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists under Executive Order 13224.

More . . .

The second "argument" made is that Hillary "wants" to "obliterate" Iran. But what did Clinton actually say?

"In the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them. That's a terrible thing to say but those people who run Iran need to understand that, because that perhaps will deter them from doing something that would be reckless, foolish and tragic."

Now, it is important to note that:

US policy, whether Republican or Democrat, is to retaliate with nuclear weapons against anyone launching a nuclear strike against Israel.

It is also important to note that Obama said:

Israel is "the most important ally" the United States has in the Middle East, and that Washington would respond "forcefully and appropriately" to any attack.

Does anyone believe Obama, despite quibbling over the word "obliterate," is not on board with this policy? I certainly do not. Indeed, consider Obama's own, even more bellicose stance on Iran expressed in September 2004:

U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama suggested Friday that the United States one day might have to launch surgical missile strikes into Iran and Pakistan to keep extremists from getting control of nuclear bombs.

Obama said the United States must first address Iran’s attempt to gain nuclear capabilities by going before the United Nations Security Council and lobbying the international community to apply more pressure on Iran to cease nuclear activities. That pressure should come in the form of economic sanctions, he said. But if those measures fall short, the United States should not rule out military strikes to destroy nuclear production sites in Iran, Obama said.

“The big question is going to be, if Iran is resistant to these pressures, including economic sanctions, which I hope will be imposed if they do not cooperate, at what point are we going to, if any, are we going to take military action?” Obama asked. Given the continuing war in Iraq, the United States is not in a position to invade Iran, but missile strikes might be a viable option, he said. Obama conceded that such strikes might further strain relations between the U.S. and the Arab world. “In light of the fact that we’re now in Iraq, with all the problems in terms of perceptions about America that have been created, us launching some missile strikes into Iran is not the optimal position for us to be in,” he said.

“On the other hand, having a radical Muslim theocracy in possession of nuclear weapons is worse. So I guess my instinct would be to err on not having those weapons in the possession of the ruling clerics of Iran. … And I hope it doesn’t get to that point. But realistically, as I watch how this thing has evolved, I’d be surprised if Iran blinked at this point.”

Now you may disagree with these views (I certainly disagree with the more extreme view expressed by Obama in 2004), but only Clinton Derangement Syndrome (or less charitably, to coin a phrase, being a moron) can explain believing that Obama has been less hawkish on Iran than Clinton.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:49:10 AM EST
    There barely is any difference between them. Sadly, because of CDS, and perhaps political inexperience, a group of people on the blogs still believe the inflated primary rhetoric about it.

    Of course, a lot of those people will believe anything negative said about someone named Clinton.


    I beat this drum a lot (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by ChrisO on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 01:14:01 PM EST
    during the primaries. A favorite meme of the Obama supporters was that Hilary was a "hawk." Kyl-Lieberman and the "obliterate" quote were the two most often mentioned arguments. I tried to point out that not only did Obama co-sponsor the Dodd bill, when the Kyl-Lieberman vote came up, 98 Senators cast a vote. The only ones missing were Obama and McCain. And Obama's excuse that he wasn't told about the vote deserved ridicule, but of course that was reserved for Hillary. It seems 98 other Senators did a good job of keeping the vote secret from Obama.

    Besides the fact that I was furious at the way the Obama campaign then went on to castigate Hillary for her vote, it reinforced for me that Obama always manages to avoid casting controversial votes. After voting to condemn MoveOn, skipping Kyl-Lieberman and voting for FISA, I have no question that he would have voted in favor of the AUMF if he'd been in the Senate.

    Thanks, BTD... (none / 0) (#1)
    by JoeCHI on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:11:53 AM EST
    you seem to be one of the few bloggers who has any memory of, or enough computer cache, to accurately recall Obama's actual public record.

    Nope I am a Moron (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:22:40 AM EST
    or so I have been told.

    Parent
    Two things (none / 0) (#6)
    by Pepe on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:18:50 AM EST
    All of that was public record during the primaries, but of course blinders came in handy for O-bots to not pay attention to what Obama was actually saying.

    And two, where was BTD during the primaries on these issues when it would have counted? Oh yeah, he supported Obama so of course that is the reason these things were not brought up then, to my knowledge, by him or many others - short of Obama's FISA vote of course which could not be ignored and still maintain any credibility at all.

    Better late than never I guess.

    But to read the above now certainly educates some detractors as to why Clinton is a good choice for SoS. Her and Obama are on the same page on a lot of issues. The thing is that she didn't try to hide who she was, while Obama though his double talk did. Now the real Obama will stand up much to the dismay of many of his supporters.

    Parent

    your knowledge is damend faulty (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:28:23 AM EST
    I really should have said (none / 0) (#9)
    by Pepe on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:46:00 AM EST
    'to my memory'. My knowledge is actually pretty good.

    So to my memory, and during the primaries I read a lot of this blog and others, I don't recall you bringing up those other issues on Iran that you are now. Short of FISA and complaining about how Obama should campaign I really don't recall any real substantive criticism of Obama from you in all honesty. And if you did it was very sporadic and not as clear as the post you made here today imo.

    Parent

    You recall wrong (5.00 / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:07:07 AM EST
    Both are terrible on Iran (none / 0) (#4)
    by Platypus on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:04:55 AM EST
    (and, more generally, in their adopting a militaristic view to foreign policy matters.)

    That is the sad reality.

    Perhaps so (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:08:43 AM EST
    My point is both hold the same views on Iran.

    Parent
    For those who were paying attention (none / 0) (#8)
    by Steve M on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:43:28 AM EST
    it was obvious that most of the differences between Clinton and Obama on foreign policy were completely manufactured.

    Both of them are squarely within the Democratic mainstream on issues of substance.  I favored Obama slightly on foreign policy because I felt he offered more chance of changing the paradigm - which is to say, someday in the future I hope Democrats won't view every foreign policy decision through the lens of "will the Republicans call me weak if I vote this way?"  But that's not an issue of substance, it's a matter of political courage.  A good example of what I'm talking about was Obama's position on Cuba during the primary.

    One of the classic moments of the primary was the infamous "negotiating without preconditions" controversy, in which BOTH sides twisted the other's position in order to manufacture a difference that simply didn't exist.  They both agreed but neither would admit it.

    A vote is not (none / 0) (#10)
    by Pepe on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:58:51 AM EST
    an issue of substance? I have to disagree with that. Of course it is. I agree with the political courage part of what you said but to say that the result is not substantive is not correct.

    As for the "negotiating without preconditions" - there certainly was a real difference between the two. Clinton was adamant about her position on the matter and so was Obama. Their contrast was very clear in the debate the subject first came up. Perhaps you forget that part and wish to remember when Obama backtracked on what he said when he tried  to deflect the criticism of his original statements.

    It was a dumb mistake but not a campaign killer because many of his less astute supporters on such matters thought what he originally said was a great idea. Of course he latter backtracked on them because it was not a great idea. It did show though a certain naivety on his  part regarding foreign policy which is why he needs someone like Clinton as SoS.

    Parent

    What vote? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Steve M on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:08:37 AM EST
    I don't know what vote you are referring to.

    As to the debate flap, it was clear that both Clinton and Obama agreed on the bottom-line position of talking with bad guys.  Clinton decided to exaggerate Obama's position in order to call him "naive and irresponsible," and in return Obama decided to exaggerate Clinton's position to call her "Bush/Cheney lite."  In reality it's hard to imagine very much difference at all between the circumstances under which an Obama Administration would talk to Iran and the circumstances under which a Clinton Administration would do so.

    Parent

    Read your own post (none / 0) (#13)
    by Pepe on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:20:21 AM EST
    "will the Republicans call me weak if I vote this way?"  But that's not an issue of substance, it's a matter of political courage."

    Now do you get it?

    And NO Obama and Clinton did not originally agree because it was Obama who said in front the entire country in a debate that he would personally talk directly to hostile countries. And the criticism he received for saying that was from many quarters, not just Clinton. Which is why he backtracked and requalified what he said.

    You either have a memory of convenience or just a bad memory. Given that you didn't even remember what you wrote in your own post today regarding a "vote" I'd say it is the latter.

    Parent

    Okay (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Steve M on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:33:22 AM EST
    as usual, you're just being pedantic and nasty.  I'm going to go back to ignoring your comments now.

    Parent
    Funny (none / 0) (#15)
    by Pepe on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 12:10:18 PM EST
    I quote what you posted and I'm pedantic. Then I point out how your memory failed you on two issues,  one being what you wrote, and I'm nasty. lol.

    And that makes you what? Thin skinned?

    Go ahead and ignore my comments. Do you really think you are depriving me of something I can't do without?

    And that means I get to respond to your posts and you won't respond back? Make my Day! :)

    Parent

    both parties, (none / 0) (#17)
    by cpinva on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 01:22:36 PM EST
    and both candidates share exactly the same position, with regards to a US response, in the event of a nuclear attack on one of its allies.

    this has been standard US policy since the end of wwII. the policy of "deterrance" was established by the truman administration, and adopted by every administration since then.

    nothing new there, and no particular surprise that both obama and clinton would have the same position on the subject.

    and yes BTD, you did make it clear that you realized this, through the course of the primaries. that others either have no memory of that, or a selective memory, changes nothing.

    BTD was the last holdout on this blog (none / 0) (#18)
    by DancingOpossum on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 01:27:26 PM EST
    The last holdout to throw his support to Obama, and even then it was tepid support; so he did in fact discuss this and many other issues that dissented from the Obama Cult party line. I recall this discussion and many others along the same lines.

    Last holdout? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:00:44 PM EST
    Hardly. I was for Obama in November 2007.

    Parent