Saturday Open Thread

What's on your minds today? Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Amnesty International Delegation Report (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 07:24:20 AM EST
    Amnesty International Delegation Releases Report on Human Rights Abuses in Ferguson, Missouri

    On August 18, around 10 pm, Amnesty International's report states [PDF] police "activated a Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) that was mounted about 8-10 feet off the ground on top of an armored truck at the intersection of W. Florissant and Ferguson avenues." This was apparently a response to the throwing of a few bottles and a group of protesters that decided to stop moving and stand in front of a line of police.

    "The LRAD was pointed at a group of stationary protestors on the street approximately 15 feet away. Members of the media and observers were about the same distance from the device. Law enforcement gave no warning to protesters that an LRAD would be used."

    After providing earplugs to a member of Amnesty International, a St. Louis County police officer said, `This noise will make you sick.' Several members of the delegation reported feeling nauseous from the noise of the LRAD until it link

    Huh?? (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 10:13:44 AM EST
    This was apparently a response to the throwing of a few bottles

    Haven't been hit by a thrown bottle but somehow I think the thrower's act fails this test:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petitition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Well, if all members of the crowd were not (none / 0) (#19)
    by Peter G on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 12:49:42 PM EST
    "peaceable" that would certainly justify the police in using a military weapon (the LRAD) that is capable of causing permanent injury to targets and bystanders alike.  I see your point. (When the LRAD was used in Pittburgh to disperse a peaceful protest of the G20 summit, the city wound up paying about $75,000 to a professor who was merely passing by and suffered permanent hearing loss.)

    Subtle sarcasm, Peter (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Zorba on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 12:58:10 PM EST
    It's going to be lost on him.     ;-)

    He'll find a way to justify what the police did. (none / 0) (#28)
    by Angel on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 02:07:28 PM EST
    Trust me.

    The tried and true Nuremburg defense. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 02:47:48 PM EST
    Gunning down civilians is perfectly legal.  Policies were followed.  Pretexts were professional.

    I invoke here (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Peter G on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 03:08:45 PM EST
    Godwin's Law, which is not intended as a compliment.

    Frightening that zero criteria (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 01:00:39 PM EST
    Must be met and zero citizen involved oversight before United States police officers can use that despicable thing on its citizens.

    I get your point (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 02:08:45 PM EST
    But I don't see a solution.

    Would you allow violent protests?

    If not, what would you use to disburse them?


    Here's an article about FPD General Orders (none / 0) (#40)
    by Palli on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 04:45:37 PM EST
    Quotes from Ferguson Police Department Code of Conduct General Order April 25, 2011
    https://news.vice.com/article/heres-a-first-look-at-the-ferguson-police-departments-internal-code-of -conduct

    Police officers "will not use their position of authority to abuse any citizen," and officers will treat people with whom they interact "equally and in a courteous manner."

    "A police officer must weigh the necessity of apprehension against the apparent threat to the safety of all involved, and exhaust every alternative means of apprehension known to be available at the time before resorting to the use of lethal force,"

    "...the use of lethal force is permitted against a fleeing suspect only if there is a "substantial risk" that the person will cause "death or serious physical injury if apprehension is delayed."

    "The watch commander shall respond to the scene and be responsible for the command and protection of the scene until the arrival of the Bureau of Investigations investigator(s). He shall assist, as necessary, in the investigation of the incident and arrange to have a police officer, not involved, prepare the original report.

    The watch commander will complete the Use of Force Report F-080 and forward it through the chain of command to the Chief."

    The entire order document is found at the citation above.

    HELP Every time I use the instructions to make a citation, I get this message:
    Preview Comment
    Your HTML has the following error :
    Attribute HREF="" for tag A is not allowed
    and the post fails


    Here you go (none / 0) (#44)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 05:20:10 PM EST
    (none / 0) (#34)
    by waldenpond
    How to link:
    1.    Type a word 'link' (or any word/s)

    2.    Copy the url address that is at the very top of the screen.  (I have the article I am going to link to open on my tabbed browsing.)   

    3.    Highlight the word 'link'

    4.    Click chain link button above the comment box.

    You need to copy this somewhere just in case it gets deleted along with your comment.

    5.    Paste in the url. (the letters http are already in the box so make sure you override them)

    6.    Press preview to make sure you see your word/s in blue

    7.    Press post Or you can try tiny url

    by Rhouse on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 10:03:52 PM CST
    go HERE and read the instructions.  I use it to send links through the mail and at TL when I forget what to do for embedding links.


    I guess (none / 0) (#30)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 02:29:27 PM EST
    Keene, New Hampshire either didn't have a Long Range Acoustic Device and tanks or didn't think they should be used even though the students threw a lot more than a few bottles and did considerable property damage.

    Property is easily replaced. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 02:49:09 PM EST
    Lives not so easily.

    Not sure I understand your comment (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 03:05:17 PM EST
    and I am pretty sure that you didn't understand mine. If you are not aware of the Pumpkin Fest riots in Keene, NH
    you might want to follow my link and compare what happened in Keene to what happened in Ferguson and the difference in how it was handled by police and how it was reported by the media.

    Throwing a few bottles and forming a line (none / 0) (#37)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 03:23:00 PM EST
    Doesn't require a disproportionate response.  Laws against littering don't allow the cops to tackle one and put one in handcuffs for throwing a used Kleenex into the street, for example.

    I guess I should have (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 04:37:11 PM EST
    used multiple snarks symbols and labeled both comments heavy sarcasm intended. Maybe I also needed to put multiple quotes in the comments rather than relying on people to read the link I provided and do a comparison between events in Ferguson and to those in Keene as I suggested.

    Here we go once again - Keene, NH:

    At one point in the evening, over 4,000 people, mostly white male college students, were gathered in the community of 23,000. The students were causing chaos throughout the evening, as liquor bottles were thrown, stores were broken into and cars were tipped over. Bonfires were set throughout the town's streets. Light posts and signs were torn out of the ground. Town residents reported that most in the crowd were loud, obnoxious and drunk. At least 20 people were taken to area hospitals for various injuries, mostly from thrown bottles. This is also not a new thing for Keene. Last year, 140 arrests were made at the pumpkin fest.
    Eventually, after copious amounts of property damage had been done by the out-of-control students, riot police were called into the scene to disperse the crowd. People in the crowd apparently started throwing beer bottles at the police and shouted obscenities. Tear gas was shot into the crowd and pepper spray was used on individuals who allegedly confronted police in a physical manner. One 18-year-old student told the local paper Saturday night that it was a "blast to do things you aren't supposed to be doing." He also suggested that the students were revolting from the cops.

    Much like with riots in the aftermath of sporting events, this is going to be seen as kids just blowing off steam, having a little too much fun and just taking things a bit too far. Now, compare this to the coverage that we've seen by the mainstream media in regards to protests in Ferguson.

    Let me highlight this part one more time. Even though "copious amounts of property damage had been done by the out-of-control students" and "people in the crowd apparently started throwing beer bottles at the police" no tanks rolled on the streets of Keene with police aiming there rifles at the rioters and no Long Range Acoustic Device was used against the students. There was no non stop coverage by the media of how out of control, how vicious, how deplorable the actions done "just for fun" by these students.

    Hopefully it is now clear that I agree with the Amnesty International  Delegation Report which is why I posted it to this Open Thread.


    Everyone likes wedding pictures right? (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 08:32:25 AM EST
    this one is sort of special

    I would ask that you not share it further.  The last thing I would want would be to invade their privacy and it was sent to me as a friend.  But it's just so great I wanted to share it and I'm sure no one here will know this family.
    A bit of background the guy is a friend I made through work.  Brilliant at what he does which is what I used to do.  The kids are his from a previous marriage.  His first wife passed a few years ago and although I never asked I'm pretty sure it was as a result of complications arising from the birth of their second, the boy in the picture.  
    After that and raising the kids by himself no one deserves a happy ending more than this guy   And boy did he get one,  look at her!  See is gorgeous.  And I'm told she is just beautiful on the inside.

    One more (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 08:37:13 AM EST
    Lovely. And the children look adorable. (none / 0) (#7)
    by Angel on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:36:55 AM EST
    I love the matching hat (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:41:16 AM EST
    on the little boy.  Adam is famous for that hat.

    I thought the matching hats (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:53:10 AM EST
    was a great touch as well. Good looking family. Sending wishes for a happy life together.  

    They all found each other (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:37:49 AM EST
    How sweet

    So pretty, and adorable children. Glad (none / 0) (#17)
    by ruffian on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 11:46:39 AM EST
    your friend was able to make a good life for them. It must have been so hard to lose his wife that way with such young children.

    October in Paris. (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by KeysDan on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 11:07:26 AM EST
    The Picasso Museum re-opened today, on Pablo Picasso's birthday (October 25, 1881.)  The five-year renovation and expansion of the 17th Century mansion in Marais that houses the collection was marked by turbulence including cost over-runs and the firing of the director as well as the minister for culture.

    Also, the Foundation Vuitton, in the Bois de Boulogne, opens October 27.  This a private art museum of Bernard Arnault, the head of the luxury goods conglomerate and France's richest man.  

    The museum, designed by Frank Gehry, is spectacular (I only saw the exterior and a few "construction peaks" of the interior, but it was enough to register my vote).  The museum is on public park grounds and will be turned over to the city in about 50 years.  Meanwhile, it is under private control but open to the public.

    Wish I was in Paris! (none / 0) (#38)
    by ZtoA on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 03:41:32 PM EST
    THE WAR IS OVER. On Saturday, 25 October, the 133rd anniversary of Pablo Picasso's birth, the museum named after him is due to reopen in Paris. It has been closed for the past five years undergoing a major and controversial renovation. This long-awaited event follows a series of frustrating delays and contested construction work that finally pushed President François Hollande to sack Anne Baldassari, the museum's head for the past decade. In June, Laurent Le Bon, 45, was given an emergency mission to reopen the Musée Picasso


    Longer article- some backstory.

    Also showing in Paris, Paul McCarthy.

    Vandals cut the cables of the 25-metre (80ft) inflated sculpture in the Place Vendôme last weekend, amid protests from conservative groups. One passer-by was so incensed by the INSTALLATION, near the Ritz hotel, that he slapped the artist.



    Oh no... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by desertswine on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 12:20:50 PM EST
    How sad (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Peter G on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    I feel like I'm sitting alone in a white room with black curtains.

    msybe it's brcause I'm on my phone (none / 0) (#23)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 01:18:52 PM EST
    But that link takes me to a huffpo page eith nothing but pic of Brice and tathrr tackily, an ad saying RIP with a life insurane policy.

    Link works fine for me (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 01:20:50 PM EST
    Anyone who uses a mobile device should know (none / 0) (#27)
    by Angel on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 02:06:19 PM EST
    that you don't always get the full website on them.  

    Correction made: (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by KeysDan on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 02:39:00 PM EST
    Dr.Craig Spencer, the Ebola patient at Bellevue Hospital, reported himself as having a 100.3 temperature on Thursday, not 103.0 degrees as widely (and incorrectly) reported.  The CDC has recently lowered the threshold for suspecting a case of Ebola  from 101.5 to 100.4.

    A voice of sanity! (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Zorba on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 02:43:35 PM EST
    Thanks, KeysDan.

    The Donkey in the room that (none / 0) (#4)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 08:49:38 AM EST
    no one wants to talk about:

    Jeff Roorda -- Democrat Representative and Democrat Candidate for Missouri Senate and Democrat Police Union Boss and Democrat Fundraiser for Darren Wilson

    The irony in this whole thing is that both sides that face off in the streets of Ferguson -- the public union police and the black community protesters -- are both strong Missouri Democrat Party constituencies.

    It helps to explain why the Democrat Governor of Missouri Jay Nixon and nearly every other Democrat  is trying to distance themselves from the shooting of Mike Brown and the November 4 election results may very well determine the direction of the case.

    IMO the only impact the November (none / 0) (#6)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:36:29 AM EST
    election will have on the case is that the GJ's verdict will be announced.

    McCulloch is running unopposed so there will be no impact on his political career.

    Somewhat less certain is how this case will effect Steve Stenger's election for County Executive. The current wisdom is that he will win regardless of any action or increased apathy on the part of the AA community. This is based on the overwhelming number of votes he received in the primary election. I am slightly less certain that the  primary numbers are an accurate indicator for what will occur in the general. Every Republican I know, voted for Stenger (D) in the primary. They referenced the fact that in the last election the Republican was winning the race until they counted the votes in the minority districts. As far as they were concerned, if Dooley won the primary, the minority votes would once again win him the election. Questions to be determined are IMO are the Republicans going to vote for Stenger in the General and how will this case effect the turnout and voting patterns of AA voters.

    What is also uncertain is what impact will this case have on the future of the Democratic Party in MO. The party needs to increase voting in the minority communities. Increasing voter apathy or changing the voting patterns of their demographic groups could definitely hurt the party.


    More on cross over vote (none / 0) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:51:09 AM EST
    Stream said his campaign poll workers on Tuesday encountered countless Republicans who indicated they would ask election workers for a Democratic ballot.

    "I was afraid they were leaving me, I was trying to head it off," Stream recalled.

    He was heartened, Stream added, to learn that the majority of the crossover voters later reassured his poll workers that Stream "has my vote in November, but we have to get rid of Charlie now."
    It's difficult to tell how many county voters might have crossed over in Tuesday's primary. But four years ago the county primary also featured contested races in both parties for county executive nominee. That year saw much heavier voting in the Republican primary, where lawyer Bill Corrigan faced retiree Nick Ferace. Fifty-three percent of county voters cast Republican ballots in August 2010, compared with 28 percent this week. link

    MOblue, thanks (none / 0) (#15)
    by Palli on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 10:25:40 AM EST
    The Fannie Lou Hamer Coalition is endorsing Steamer ,the Republican who is African American.  Are Republicans votes for euro American Democrat Stenger about race?  
    The Coalition is also suggesting people write in the name MICHAEL BROWN to show opposition to Bob McCullouh for County Pros, Atty.  Do you think there will be an accounting of write-in votes?  (Rules at BOEs are often different.)
    Has there be any response from elected officials after the AmnestyUSA Report?  Any sense of shame?
    Every one knew Amnesty was there and when they left Aug 18. They just kept on behaving as blue shirted thugs. It took until Oct.3 before FPD ceded protest management to St Louis Co.Police.
    Sen. McCasskill after her first concern has been avoiding the issues trying to hang on to white Democrats, I suppose.  Of course, I don't know if she has been working the inside, if so, unsuccessfully.  The fundraiser for regional Democrats on FergusonMoralMonday was bad optics for her-protestor hog tied and carried into vans by cops! Roordas make party loyalty a offense against conscience.  
    What do you hear about the financial picture in St Louis county and municipalities?

    Leaks (none / 0) (#25)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 01:35:29 PM EST
    News in St Louis today is reporting that legal experts contacted by them are saying that rumors [leaks] are one thing but the leaked autopsy report is another thing all together and should be vigorously investigated and prosecuted by the Prosecuting Attorney.

    The Medical Examiner's Office has denied releasing it to the Post Dispatch or anyone else -- so how did a reporter at the paper get it.

    Reporters have been trying to ask the Prosecuting Attorney about it and what McCulloch is doing about it but all they have gotten is silence and unanswered phone calls.

    I think the PA and the PD both know that they are in trouble here.


    A lot of questions in your comment (none / 0) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 01:51:38 PM EST
    I'll try and answer the questions that I can answer without doing any research.

    Michael Brown's mother has requested that people NOT write in his name for County Executive and I hope people honor her wishes.

    The Republican votes for Stenger in the primary were to defeat Dooley who they felt would be unbeatable in the General Election. Was there a racial component to this? Yes, IMO that definitely played a part. CW - Dooley as an African American would garner more votes from the AA community than Stenger especially after the nasty primary fight. Then again there are Republicans who don't want "those" people to hold higher office. Except for a select few, the majority of "those" people are thugs.

    You don't want to get me started on McCaskill who ranks as one of my least favorite Dems. She will stay out of it as much as possible. Her primary principled stand is to keep her job.

    Lacy Clay, the Democratic Representative in North County has come out in favor of Stenger after losing his push to get McCulloch replaced.

    St Louis county and municipalities is made up of various very diverse areas so the financial picture is a mixed bag. Unable to give you an accurate picture without spending time (maybe a lot of time) to research.


    Wow (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:02:20 AM EST
    Arkansas Democratic Sen. Mark Pryor argued that the federal government's desegregation of Arkansas's largest public school in 1957 was an "unwilling invasion" that took "a local problem out of the local authorities' hands" and led to deep suspicions of democracy in the state, according to a copy of his college thesis obtained by the Washington Free Beacon.

    Written in 1985, the 30-page paper--which also suggested that the state's Democratic Party was hindering economic progress, and attributed policies such as welfare and the Equal Rights Amendment to "wild-eyed liberals"--could add to Pryor's difficulties as he fights to protect his seat from Republican challenger Rep. Tom Cotton.

    College writings have become a campaign issue in the Arkansas Senate race, with the Pryor campaign and national Democrats attacking Cotton for his student newspaper columns and senior thesis.

    In the essay, Pryor argued that the Democratic Party's dominance in the state stemmed from public's need for protection against external threats, comparing this to the Russian people backing Tsarist and Communist governments.

    "Arkansas has been invaded unwillingly twice. Once in reality and once figuratively," wrote Pryor.

    "The Civil War provided the real invasion. The figurative invasion took place in 1957 at Little Rock Central High School. That event took a local problem out of the local authorities' hands. The federal government had again forced its will on the people of Arkansas."

    The cynical side of me wonders if the Pryor campaign might not be responsible for this story.   Sadly I can see it helping him with some Dixiecrats.  Yes, we still have those.

    Here's a link to your (none / 0) (#9)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:37:57 AM EST

    On Fox, no less.  Man, they must be seriously conflicted.  Attacking Pryor for peddling Republican values.

    There were other links but Fox has the highest cognitive dissonance quotient.


    I'm tellin ya (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 09:46:29 AM EST
    Pryor is a very shrewd pol.  You don't survive "blue" in a state as red as this without that.
    Fox is exactly the place he would want this.  These are the people who may very well see this and think "Hmmmm"

    Bottom line.  IMO no democrat is going to see this and say wow, I voting for Tom Cotton.  OTOH I can see people doing the reverse.

    The invasion and humiliation of Little Rock are very much a part of living memory here for some.


    I"m not saying (none / 0) (#41)
    by lentinel on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 04:55:53 PM EST
    that this segment is perfect, or even cogent, but I think it is worth seeing - because it expresses a point of view about our war against ISIS that I think is valid.

    Jon Stewart

    CaptHowdy! I blame you (none / 0) (#42)
    by Zorba on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 04:56:54 PM EST
    For even bringing up ladybug invasions, in an earlier thread.
    You obviously jinxed us, because the ladybugs are now starting to swarm on the outside of our house, with some of them coming inside.   ;-)
    Still, not as bad as a stink bug invasion, which we seem to have managed to avoid this year.

    I was pretty sure (none / 0) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 05:04:16 PM EST
    i had all of them.  I recommend keeping all doors and windows tightly closed to the extent possible.  

    If it's anything like here if it just started it will get way worse.



    Jim Carrey (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 25, 2014 at 05:35:30 PM EST
    on SNL Halloween show tonight.  It should be worth watching just to see him do Rick Scott.  Which is expected.