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Dow Plunges

I am about to get on a plane to New York, but my flight is delayed. So I pop open the computer and see the Dow lost nearly 700 points and 7.3% of its value. Oy! Talk about suffering for your sins. Atonement is seemingly out of reach at the moment.

On this high holy day for Judaism, let us pray for better days ahead and for atonement for our sins as a Nation. Or not. As you wish.

In any event this is another Open Thread.

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    My question is (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 05:54:15 PM EST
    if you're Jewish and you go to work on Yom Kippur (as I am doing today), when exactly do you atone for it?  I think I might have to dial 1-800-OOPS-JEW.

    Shalom, 1-800-OOPS-JEW. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:07:25 PM EST
    How have you wronged me?

    Heh, I'd forgotten about that from last year.

    Anyway, there's nothing like breaking fast with your grandparents after. . .not fasting.

    I'm a bad Jew with a taste for whitefish salad.

    Parent

    No olives for me (none / 0) (#25)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:30:00 PM EST
    Whitefish salad properly goes a good everything bagel with chive cream cheese and nova!

    Parent
    I like olives (none / 0) (#39)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:49:50 PM EST
    in my martinis and my Salade Nicoise.

    Parent
    Have you tried (none / 0) (#94)
    by Radiowalla on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:27:19 PM EST
    "cake aux olives?"

    An excellent dish to serve at apéritif time.

    Parent

    I actually was. . . (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:05:36 PM EST
    in temple today (first time in my life I've been there on Yom Kippur).

    Among the "sins" one atones for, it turns out, are cynicism and irreverence.

    I'm doomed.

    Parent

    Aren't we all? ;-) (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:12:37 PM EST
    heh (none / 0) (#52)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:07:51 PM EST
    I was (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:05:37 PM EST
    Christened in a Methodist church but worked many times on Christmas Day and Easter.  Good Friday, nah, work day.

    We do what we have to do.

    I was baptised in the Lutheran church (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:10:51 PM EST
    (ELCA) and worked many years as a church musician on so many religious holidays. No time and a half either.  Then I went to law school and later got paid for drinking a gin and tonic on the beach on paid holidays.  In America, you can be everything you want to be!

    Parent
    Krugman and DeLong (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Manuel on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:33:15 PM EST
    have sustained me through this crisis as TalkLeft sustained me through the primaries.  It is great to find places where reason has not fled.

    The stock market is not our biggest problem.  If the economic powers act in concert, this crisis can be overcome and the stock market will revive (though perhaps not to the heights of last year for some time).

    From DeLong today.

    The first good thing about this situation is that it does not call for different central banks and Treasuries to do different things, but rather for them all to do the same thing in unison without fouling each other's oars.

    In an ideal world, Richard Cheney would resign, George W. Bush would appoint Barack Obama vice president, George W. Bush would then resign, and President Barack Obama would recall the congress to set it to work. We don't live in an ideal world. In a less-ideal world, this would happen on November 5. I don't think we live in a less-ideal world. But we should do what we can.

    I think we'll get a big rally when Obama wins.

    The global market economy continues to evade all our attempts to make it foolproof--in large part because our greater fools are so ingenious. But there is not yet any requirement that this global economic downturn reach the magnitude of 1982, or even 1975.

    We are near the bottom of the panic now (or so I hope).

    BTW For market advice, Jubak and Markman on MSN have been pretty good.

    Krugman, DeLong, Roubini and Calculated ... (none / 0) (#50)
    by santarita on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:04:21 PM EST
    Risk have become my go-to columns and blogs.  RGE Monitor has had some excellent pieces from various authors that explain what's going on in plainspeak as opposed to technospeak.  And I love the comments in Calculated Risk.  Talk about gallows humor!  And I like Bonddad although he is usually short on talk and long on graphs. (short and long are not used in the market sense)

    In general the above blogs are not too ideological and have good info.  But right now no one is making me feel real good about the near term.

    Parent

    Bad for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by SomewhatChunky on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:18:08 PM EST
    I think this crash is very bad for what Obama wants to do, though it does insure he'll win.

    Most of the big things he wants to do costs money.  Lots of it.

    The govt has just taken on huge obligations.  And, as of today, it hasn't worked.  Which means it probably will get worse.   Which means more govt obligations.

    Tax Revenues will dive.  There will be a huge drop in capital gains at any rate for  long time. Unemployment will increase dramatically.  Spending by all will contract.  All this means lots less tax revenues.

    Same for municipalities.  They will be hurting.  

    Less money means govt will have to downsize or be realistic along with everyone else at many levels.

    If you believe the "rich" hold all the financial assets, then they have just been crushed.  Raising taxes on the upper 5% next year IMHO would be a big mistake at this point.  That would make things worse.  Risk is a 4 letter word right now.  We will want people who have the means to do so to take risk and do things that create jobs and stimulate the hoped for recovery.  High tax rates, removal of the caps on Soc Security et al is not the way to do that right now.   If interest rates and tax rates increase, muni bonds will start to look awfully attractive to many.  Why should one take risks, especially if the upside is cut way back?  That does not create new jobs and growth.

    The elderly have been crushed.  With the disappearance of defined benefit plans and the reliance on defined contribution and individual plans, many with no hope of earning it back are in a deep hole.  Many were in far riskier positions than they should have been because of low interest rates.  Losses become permanent when you need to deplete your portfolio to live on.

    I think Obama knows this.  I hope he focuses on "fixing" the economy for the first year or two.  Then he can move onto the wish list.  Done right, he'll have a strong presidency which will bode well for democrats the long term.  I do not think plans made on the assumption of a strong economy should be forced upon a very very weak one.   It's not a flip-flop when you change because circumstances have changed so dramatically.  Even though this means many promises will not be kept, I hope the left lets him do so.  

    Righting the ship will be a formidable task.  Done wrong and we could be in for a very rough spell.

    I disagree, this is great for Obama (none / 0) (#83)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:52:33 PM EST
    Yes, he wants to raise lots of new taxes, and that's bad during a depression but things are so bad, people think any change is better than none.  They'll vote for Obama in droves.  A landslide.  

    It's this Congress who I worry about.  They have to pass the laws to turn this depression around.  Since they have about 3 braincells, when all their little pea brains are combined, I am not hopeful.   Obama can only do so much, Congress passes the laws.  

    I see a huge increase in local taxes, a moderate increase in federal taxes, HUGE inflation, and high interest rates, for a long time.  Government will increase tremendously, but no one will get richer that way.  We'll all stay poor if we think that everyone can work for the government.  

    This is one helluva mess and we have an inept Congress who can't find their way out of a wet paper bag.  VERY scary.  

    Parent

    Local Stuff (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by SomewhatChunky on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:56:49 PM EST
    I see big cuts at the local level.  The feds can run a deficit - locals cannot.  I do not think big tax increases will fly in hard times.  In my region, most taxes come via the property tax and that is capped at 3%/year and values are dropping like a stone.

    I'm not sure that is all bad.  I don't think local govt has adopted many of the efficiencies that the private sector has over the years.  I see lots of fat in my little community - big staffing increases over the last 10 years with no population growth.

    I don't think the voters (Who are mostly in the private sector) are going to be willing to take all the hits, and then pay higher taxes to support a static or growing public sector.

    I also don't think it's a given that less money means less service.  That's always the battle cry at budget time, but we've all seen technology and productivity changes deal with those issues in both the public and private sectors.

    A shrinking pie is as shrinking pie.  Eat less!

    Parent

    Local taxes (none / 0) (#109)
    by BrassTacks on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 01:50:34 AM EST
    Unfortunately our local taxes are not capped and they go up every year.  Most people now pay over $600 a month, larger homes over $1,000 a month.  Democrats run our local government and the taxpayers keep voting for us, so I guess they don't mind the higher taxes.   Older people just move out of the county.  

    Of course government can do more with less, but what bureaucracy wants to do that?  As long as they don't have to, they won't.  

    I have no doubt that Obama and Congress will raise the federal income tax on everyone who currently pays.  They'll have to, to fund what Obama wants done and to pay for increased medicaid as more people lose jobs and health insurance and the boomers try to retire.  There is no way that they nationalize health care during this recession/depression.  :(  

    Parent

    You miss the point (none / 0) (#92)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:14:02 PM EST
    Government spending is increased without raising taxes.  Nobody raised taxes during the Great Depression, the government went into massive deficit spending in order to put people to work, and the money gradually flowed back into the system, particularly once WWII got going.

    The GOP has brainwashed everybody into thinking deficits are the worst thing imaginable, and that's simply not the case.  It has to be managed carefully to avoid major inflation, but the federal government carrying a deficit is not a really that bad a thing.

    Parent

    So more government jobs (none / 0) (#110)
    by BrassTacks on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 01:52:07 AM EST
    Is the answer?  Not more private sector jobs?  Works for me, as long as we don't have to pay higher tax bills.  

    Parent
    Downsizing (none / 0) (#106)
    by cal1942 on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 12:59:33 AM EST
    government would be a huge mistake. If you think the very wealthy have been crushed by recent market downturns you are VERY mistaken. There's still a powerful lot of jack rolling around at the top and the tax man should be stepping up efforts to get the public's justifiable share. Tax increases where the money is will bring in much needed revenue.

    Getting out of Iraq, even with increased forces in Afghanistan will save a bundle. Cuts can be made in the military budget, our largest expense.

    During the Great Depression FDR raised taxes significantly on the wealthy, and drastically increased domestic spending.

    The economy can't be fixed by downsizing government. The only real risk is downsizing and doing nothing.

    Parent

    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:41:40 PM EST
    So not going to happen.  Out of all the reasons I could think of it not happening, perhaps the one that comes from the Obama camp mentality (as I see it) is that it would cause an unnecessary shakeup in their plans; it would engage the country in a discussion that could go either way in the crucial days before the election.  It would add uncertainty to an election that is going well as it is.  I think it is more likely we see Obama practicing a new tone of voice, rather than anything policy oriented.  And he is most convincing really, when discussing FP, not domestic issues.  

    Oh, and McCain might say, wait until you're elected to give us a fireside chat.  

    Bush and The Politics of Fear (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by john horse on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:22:46 PM EST
    One of the major problems with this fiscal crisis can be found in the man who sits in the White House.  In a time of crisis what you want is a leader who can calm people's fears.  Someone who can reassure people that things are under control.
    Someone like FDR.  Instead we have George W. Bush.

    Maybe its just not in Bush's DNA to be the leader who is cool and collected.  His administration has been based on exploiting fear, so, maybe, asking him to do a 360 is too much to ask.  

    Maybe all we can ask of Bush at this point is that he do no more harm.  Its not to much to ask, is it?  

    Repubs win one.... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by sallywally on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:36:32 PM EST
    Yahoo News:

    "And late Thursday, a federal judge ordered Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner to verify the identity of newly registered voters by matching them with information in databases maintained by the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles or the Social Security Administration.

    "The ruling came in a lawsuit filed by the Ohio Republican Party against Brunner, a Democrat. An after-hours call to Brunner's office was not immediately returned."

    I seem to recall (none / 0) (#80)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:45:51 PM EST
    from that NYT article the other day, that they're not supposed to use the Social Security database until they've tried to use the state records first.  Or maybe that just has to do with eliminating old names from the voter rolls.

    Parent
    Appeals (none / 0) (#82)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:51:07 PM EST
    They should follow the Bush/Cheney policy of tyeing this up in litigation until after the Inauguration. ;-)


    Parent
    Obama leading McCain (1.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Julianne on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:31:40 PM EST
    Everyone seems to think obama has all the answers. It seems no one is analyzing anything he is saying. What obama is advocating is socialism. If you've never lived in a socialist society, you're in for quite a cultural shock. obama's healthcare plan is a socialist plan. Before you for vote for this jerk, look at other countries who have socialist medicine. Canada has socialist medicine and the people there have to wait so long to have simple procedures like a heart cath that they die before they're able to get the procedure done. The ones who are able, come into the United States to get the procedures like this done. Also, people over 65 are not able to get ANY of the diagnostic tests like MRIs & stuff that we take for granted here because they're too expensive. I agree, something has to be done about our economy & healthcare but obama is NOT the answer. You'd think twice before voting for obama. You're going to be jumping from the pan into the fire.

    Vive La France (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:36:23 PM EST
    I love my socialist health care. it is worth every centime and Euro I have contributed over the years.


    Parent
    Et vive la république! (none / 0) (#93)
    by Radiowalla on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:25:34 PM EST
    If McCain-Palin win, I'll be joining you.

    Parent
    Yes, America is betting on Socialism (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:53:59 PM EST
    Being the answer.  We will pay more in taxes and have bigger government.  I just hope to hell that they know what they're doing.  

    Parent
    I Would Suggest (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by CDN Ctzn on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:53:57 PM EST
    you do accurate research before commenting on Canada's Socialized Medicine. The stories you report are really nothing more than urban legends. As a Permanant Resident of the USA and a Canuck the difference in medical care is staggering.

    1. Doctors actually get paid for their services and don't have to deal with dozens of different insurance companies denying their claims.

    2. My parents are elderly and have NEVER had a problem with their healthcare. They have both had extended stays in the hospital that would have bankrupted them here and are still financially secure thanks to Socialized Medicine.

    3. The hospitals aren't 5 Star hotels but the care is good and people get healthy again. By the way, who do you think pays for the fancy Hospital lobby's here?

    4. Emergency proceedures have NO waiting period. My family members, and friends I have still living in Canada, have on various occasions needed to go to the emergency room, some even needing emergency surgery, and have recieved prompt attention. I would probably argue that it's even faster than here because there are no insurance forms to fill out.

    5. If Socialized Medicine is so bad, why is it that almost every other 1st World country (ie: Great Britian, France, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany...) all have it and we're the only ones who don't?

    The majority of negative reports about socialized medicine are perpetrated by the Insurance industry. You can do a Google search about the Myths of Canadian Healthcare Debunked and find out the truth about the Canadian system. Either that, or watch Michael Moores "Sicko".

    Parent
    why do so many Canadians come here (none / 0) (#111)
    by BrassTacks on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 01:56:55 AM EST
    For health care?  

    I've had cancer and my dh has a bunch of health problems.  We pay lots for insurance but we're very happy with our health care.  I wouldn't want to have to wait for weeks for PT/CT scan or not be able to get one, like in England and some other places.  But that's just me, I like choosing my own doctors, and firing them too.  I would like to see all Americans have health insurance but I am not so sure about the government running all the medical care in the country.  Medicaid hasn't exactly been a great program.  But we can't afford that now anyway.  

    Parent

    The one I knew of (none / 0) (#114)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 05:03:42 AM EST
    came from Canada for a spanking new program that taught children with oral difficulties how to eat solid foods.  It beats being tube fed for their entire lives.  (Cheaper, too.)

    It is one of those programs that requires a specially trained staff, inpatient stays and that the demand for is relatively low.  It makes sense that a health care system set up for the most common health care needs isn't going have every experimental treatment available.  Ground breaking programs like the feeding program will be studied, refined and then copied by other institutions.  Eventually, they'll become part of standard practice.

    I have nothing against private health care providers.  I think it would be great for them to compete for consumers who don't want to use the public system.  I'd prefer a choice of public and private health care versus private health care and going without health care.

    Parent

    I think you are making assumptions (none / 0) (#121)
    by coigue on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 11:18:30 AM EST
    that are not based in fact.

    They may or may not be true, but right now they are assumptions, no more.

    Parent

    Once Again (none / 0) (#125)
    by CDN Ctzn on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 07:06:55 PM EST
    I would seriously question the idea that "so many canadians come here for health care".

    Once again, going from my experience, my families experience, and friends experiences, i am not aware of people coming south for Health Care. I am, however, aware of several instances of the opposite being true. I live in the Pacific NW and have personally known underprivilidges people crossing the border to Canada and recieving prompt medical attention.

    As to the Urban Legend that the Canadian government dictates which doctor you see, it simply isn't true. You are free to "shop around" for your health care provider and can change at any time.

    One other note. a few years ago my brother was diagnosed with Barretts Esophagus. Basically it's Cancer of the esophagus. He is a CEO for a coproration owned by an extremely wealthy man. When he learned of my brothers condition he immediately made calls to the Mao Clinic and Duke University Hospital. Both are known for their treatment of this type of cancer. Both Hospitals referred him to a Doctor in Vancouver BC, saying that he was on the cutting edge of treating this problem. Long story short, within 1 WEEK, my brother was sceduled, opperated on, and was on the road to recovery. Of course, he was not released from the hospital for another week til stitches could be removed and he was deemed healthy enough to return home. Any guess on the cost of his proceedure and subsequent treatment? That right, zero!!! And these stories are far more common than you might assume.

    The point is, don't believe everything the media and some people will tell you about socialized medicine. It simply isn't true. By the way, I would sooner have my Tax Dollars going to treat people than to Kill, Mutilate, and Maim people!

    Parent

    Julianne (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by cal1942 on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 01:14:01 AM EST
    you've been logging too much time listening to Rush Limbaugh and the health insurance indusrty.

    Socialized medicine is when the government owns all the hospitals, clinics, labs, etc., employs all the doctors, nurses, technicians, etc., like the system in Great Britain. By the way that system is popular in Britain.  Even Margaret Thatcher didn't dare take it away.

    No one is proposing such a system for the US.

    The most "radical" proposal in the US is single payer (HR676). And HR676 is hardly radical.

    Our current overwhelmingly successful and popular Medicare for people over 65 is a single payer system.

    HR676 is something like Medicare for everyone and we're damn fools if we don't eventually adopt such a system.

    Parent

    England's program is ok because (none / 0) (#112)
    by BrassTacks on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 01:59:00 AM EST
    People can still choose private health insurance and private health care.  Half the doctors in England have done just that.  I am fine with doing that, as long as we can still choose to pay for private health care.  I do love CHOICE!  

    Parent
    And once again (none / 0) (#113)
    by cal1942 on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 02:26:51 AM EST
    no one is proposing socialized medicine (the British model) for the US.

    Parent
    No government health care here? (none / 0) (#122)
    by BrassTacks on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 12:49:30 PM EST
    Then what is it?  Universal insurance?  I am ALL for that.

    Parent
    You're (none / 0) (#124)
    by cal1942 on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 04:57:32 PM EST
    missing the components of government supported healthcare.

    Currently the US has a single payer system called Medicare for ALL citizens age 65 and over.

    In Medicare the actual DELIVERY of care is from private doctors, hospitals, labs, clinics, etc.
    Private doctors, etc. send bills for services rendered to Medicare for payment.

    That is NOT socialized medicine.

    Socialized medicine is when the government actually DELIVERS the care via doctors, nurses, etc. employed by the government. In a socialized medical system hospitals, clinics, labs, etc. are owned by the government.

    Single-payer systems like Medicare are much less expensive than private insurance carriers.

    Parent

    Single payer (none / 0) (#123)
    by BrassTacks on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 12:50:44 PM EST
    Meaning the government pays for everything?  That doesn't sound very efficient to me.  

    Parent
    Are you kidding? (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by cal1942 on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 07:37:29 PM EST
    It's much more efficient. It costs government one sixth of the amount of overhead of private insurers.  

    It's less expensive,there's no profit margin, risk is spread over a greater number of people.  

    An added bonus is that the overhead in your doctor's office is reduced, no need for staff to juggle varying requirements from a myriad of insurers and no need to worry that the claim will be refused.

    We're the only first world nation without a comprehensive system which may be part of the reason that we have the lowest life expectancy of any first world nation.


    Parent

    If I thought Obama was a Socialist (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by votermom on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 08:53:04 AM EST
    I'd be a A LOT more enthusiastic about him!

    Parent
    The old Wall Street saying (none / 0) (#3)
    by steviez314 on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:08:32 PM EST
    "Sell on Rosh Hashonah, Buy on Yom Kipper" better work.

    When you get here . . . (none / 0) (#5)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:11:21 PM EST
    prepare to enjoy some lovely weather!  ;)

    Save it. I'll be there in Nov. (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:12:57 PM EST
    since this is an Open Thread, (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:11:54 PM EST
    I'm curious.  Does Bonddad have the financial crisis figured out?  I've never read his writings.  

    Figured Out As In Solution... (none / 0) (#8)
    by santarita on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:18:00 PM EST
    No, I don't think so.  I just checked his blog and his post today is pretty glum.

    Parent
    Does bonddad (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:12:01 PM EST
    make any non-glum posts?  He's so bearish Sarah Palin probably wants to shoot him from an aircraft.

    Parent
    Figured out as in, is the writer (none / 0) (#9)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:23:58 PM EST
    knowledgeable and to be trusted, i.e., worth reading?

    Parent
    He's On My List But ... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by santarita on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:10:00 PM EST
    I find Krugman, DeLong, Calculated Risk, RGE Monitor to be easier to digest.  Bonddad has lots of charts and graphs.

    Parent
    bonddad saw the unsustainable (none / 0) (#15)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:05:55 PM EST
    building boom fueled by loose credit and the Fed's rate cuts.  He knew it would have to come halt sooner or later.  I don't think he saw quite this scenario though, as all the bad paper causes a global credit crunch.

    I will say that bonddad's been right more often than he's been wrong and that he never wavered on the unsustainable building boom.  It was never a matter of "if" just a matter of "when".  

    Parent

    Thanks. (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:07:38 PM EST
    While it's bad that the market is taking a dive (none / 0) (#10)
    by barryluda on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:25:03 PM EST
    I can't help but thinking two positive things come out of it:

    1.  Obama (and hopefully democrats with him) should win by a landslide rather than just eking out a win.

    2.  Things will improve under Obama since they've gotten so bad, so he and democrats generally are more likely to win 4 years from now too.


    I'd add a "3" ... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:52:00 PM EST
    it will force Obama to govern farther to the left.

    Parent
    I'm hoping (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Faust on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:50:24 PM EST
    Sure hope so! (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by sallywally on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:11:07 PM EST
    I would love to hear (none / 0) (#85)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:56:04 PM EST
    How Obama and Congress are going to fix this.  I am feeling like it's not fixable, certainly not fixable by this do-nothing Congress.  

    Parent
    SNL plans three prime (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:25:30 PM EST
    specials before the election:

    LA TImes

    Suggested reading (none / 0) (#12)
    by Salo on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:28:43 PM EST
    "Illuminations" by Walter Benjamin.  You can pick it up anywhere and start reading and stop anywhere and you will be intellectually nourished. There's some good stuff about Jewish holidays and such as they reappear in Kafka's personal cosmology...then you can read about Motif in Baudelaire's poems too.

    Another suggestion: (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 06:56:37 PM EST
    Atonement, by Ian McEwan.  

    Parent
    speaking of literature (none / 0) (#54)
    by Salo on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:15:18 PM EST
    ...It appears that the right wing are going to suggest that Ayers was Obama's stenographer (ghostwirter) for the "Dreams from my Father" autobiography. They have done a QSUM and FRES test and found all sorts of similarities in sentence structure, language and imagery.

    It's wierdly brilliant work and the tests such as they exist are used in court rooms to establish authorship and plagiarism lawsuits. I won't link to it because of sight rules and such, but my heavens they really are going to unload both barrels and the nuclear arsenal on this subject. They really think this is going to sink Obama. They are prepped to go after him in all sorts of ways I had not anticipated on Ayers. Literary style, lol.  It's brilliantly deranged.

    Parent

    Is Dan Rather involved? (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:24:17 PM EST
    Krugman and HOLC (none / 0) (#20)
    by santarita on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:17:57 PM EST
    I haven't been able to find where Krugman clearly supports some form of HOLC (at least the renegotiation of mortgage terms aspect) although he supports the rescue plans of Roubini and others who support some kind of debtor relief as part of an overall solution.

    He's been more focussed on the direct equity injection in troubled banks.  

    I still think that Paulson wants to wait until after the election to do a Chapter 11 workout for the banks but the craziness in the markets and the continuing lack of credit availability is pushing him to act quicker than is politic.  

    My guess is he does not support HOLC (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jerry on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:37:40 PM EST
    PK and many others have been saying for awhile that housing prices need to fall to their long term trend rates of being on a par with rent.

    If you examine my comments, you should be able to find a few indicative columns from PK.

    I am biased -- if home prices fall to rent like prices as PK and others say is their long term natural level, I might be able to afford a home.

    Parent

    I Don't Think That He Wants to Reflate The ... (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by santarita on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:56:34 PM EST
    Housing Bubble.  But there is a matter of fundamental fairness at work - if banks get equity injection to make up for losses in the mortgages and mortgage-backed securities, they ought to be forced to recognize the losses and to write down the mortgage loans under their control to appraised values and renegotiate the terms of the loans for appropriate borrowers.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#66)
    by jerry on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:30:42 PM EST
    And it's not just fairness either, there's also the problem that the underlying issue IS these mortgages.  Fixing the mortgages would fix the banks.

    But I'm still biased and would love to see house prices go down further....  Sorry.

    My solution to the whole affair, given I'm not an finance momzer or an economist would be to announce a $1T Infrastructure Rebuild fund -- tell every state they'll get 20B within 30 days to rebuild bridges, ports, etc.  To my non-econ mind, that would get capital back into the banks and it would also create jobs.

    But what do I know?

    Parent

    I Like That Idea. (none / 0) (#72)
    by santarita on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:59:02 PM EST
    But it's way too rational.

    Parent
    Rational to give each state an equal subsidy? (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by cymro on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 01:32:21 AM EST
    It's already a big enough problem that each state gets 2 votes in the senate, allowing a minority of the population to block needed changes. But to reward those minorities with way more funding for infrastucture is ridiculous, not rational.

    Parent
    RI and CA get $20B each... (none / 0) (#115)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 05:11:09 AM EST
    and every contractor in the country heads to RI!

    I'm all for infrastructure investment, but it should include mandatory rail and mass transit investment.  We need to be smart and efficient.

    Parent

    Holy crap! (none / 0) (#21)
    by patriotgames on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:21:55 PM EST
    GM, Ford and now ICELAND are teetering on banckrupcy!!

    Will we see people jumpig from the windows soon??

    I'm not Jewish, (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by ChiTownDenny on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:56:46 PM EST
    but I atone, I atone!  :(

    Parent
    Iceland (none / 0) (#30)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:37:36 PM EST
    I read this earlier from Norwegian Chef at European Tribune:
    http://www.eurotrib.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2008/10/9/153050/766
    The fiscal irresponsibility of the US has affected the entire world. Are we looking at another 1929?


    Parent
    Windows rarely open anymore (none / 0) (#32)
    by jerry on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:39:05 PM EST
    Sad to say, most windows are fixed shut.  Which is bad for the indoor air quality, and bad for environmentally good heating and cooling, and (sadly) keeps our stock broker and finance wizard overlords from jumping.

    Parent
    In the early 90's (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:52:06 PM EST
    they still opened on the 72nd floor of the ESB. Used to freak me out as the windows came down low. Always thought I would trip and go flying . . .  Instead I was caught in an elevator that had the dropsies on the 80th floor. Talk about a freakin' heart attack!

    I don't think I ever got used to the window washers/workers.

    Parent

    I am afraid so (none / 0) (#86)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:57:18 PM EST
    A long depression has begun.  

    Parent
    Obama talks about Ayers: (none / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:23:43 PM EST
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:35:54 PM EST
    It sounds a lot like what I assumed the story would be.

    I mean, you have occasional dealings with the guy, you're on a board together or whatever, and at some point you find out he did awful things as a radical 40 years ago - if everyone else who knows him is basically treating him like a regular human being, wouldn't you assume "oh well, I guess that must all be in the distant past"?  I think I would.

    Parent

    Hmmmm. I haven't listened (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:40:42 PM EST
    to the interview yet.  Did Obama say he knew about Ayers's past when Ayers and Dohrn hosted the coffee for Obama?

    Parent
    I just had the same conversation with my mom. (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by Teresa on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:47:48 PM EST
    Now she's mad at me for taking McCain's side! I tried to explain that's not what I was doing but she thinks he only met him on the board and I was just trying to inform her.

    Parent
    He's hedging more on that now (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:50:06 PM EST
    "I assumed that he had been rehabilitated," Obama said.


    Parent
    Are Ayers 2001 comments on tape? (none / 0) (#42)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:53:24 PM EST
    don't know about tape... (none / 0) (#46)
    by patriotgames on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:58:47 PM EST
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DE1438F932A2575AC0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon= &pagewanted=all

    ''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.'' Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970's as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago. The long curly locks in his Wanted poster are shorn, though he wears earrings. He still has tattooed on his neck the rainbow-and-lightning Weathermen logo that appeared on letters taking responsibility for bombings.

    In an article published 9-11-2001

    Parent

    ad don't forget the stepping on the flag picture (none / 0) (#47)
    by patriotgames on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:01:04 PM EST
    Of course he did (none / 0) (#87)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:01:06 PM EST
    But who cares now?  We've got bigger problems than that nutcase.

    Parent
    The problem is (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:13:34 PM EST
    Obama said Ayers was "just some guy in the neighborhood."  He has a terrible and frankly troubling history of denying the extent of his connections with people he was fairly closely connected to who later become inconvenient.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#64)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:22:11 PM EST
    I'm no Obama apologist, but I don't find that answer troubling at all.  I mean, they attended a handful of board meetings together, Ayers once hosted a tea gettogether for him.  That's not anywhere near a close association in my book.

    Parent
    I think it's actually a good deal (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:05:31 PM EST
    more than that.  But even what you describe is hardly "just some guy in the neighborhood."  He also described TR at one point as "just some guy I did five minutes of legal work for," and JW as "just the pastor in the church I attend sometimes."  To me, that's a clear pattern of untruthfulness that is definitely disturbing.

    Parent
    Sorry but far more than a handful (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:29:05 PM EST
    as is coming out now -- not just board meetings, and on two boards for years, but also committee meetings, subcommittee meetings, and other occasions with yet other organizations.  And Ayers got the Annenberg grant and thus had to be involved in picking Obama, hardly known then in the town, as chair.  To do otherwise would have been Ayers abdicating his responsibility to the grant donor.

    So the problem remains Obama's dismissive attempt in a recent debate -- not something 40 years ago -- to diminish an extensive relationship with Ayers.  It's not about bombs; it's about honesty.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#99)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:42:38 PM EST
    I've read the same sources you have and to me the relationship isn't anything close to extensive.  We have a difference of opinion.

    I'm far more interested in what you've found regarding the results of Ayers' education policy because education is a major concern of mine.

    Parent

    And yet another foundation board (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Cream City on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 12:00:54 AM EST
    on which Obama served, the Joyce Foundation, which stepped in to save the voucher program in my city -- the city that started the program, is the model, and now the destruction of the public schools is causing the city school board to discuss dissolving itself.  And immense cuts in other services in the 22nd-largest city in the country, a majority-minority city where we just can't afford to support two separate schools systems, public and private.  While desperately attempting to maintain our public schools -- the ones that take the kids with special needs -- it costs us more than $1000 extra for each student opting out of public schools for private schools.

    Most are religious schools that pushed the voucher program from the start here, and they're doing just fine.  (They did get an African American legislator here to sign onto and push the program for years -- but she finally has backtracked after realizing, long after many of us warned of it, that vouchers destroyed the public schools that must service her most needy constituents.)

    Btw, as the voucher schools have no accountability to us, don't have to give state testing, etc., we could not get any sense of how the kids were doing there.  We now have the results of the first longitudinal study.  The kids -- again, not the most needy -- are doing about the same, after all these expenditures.  An interesting finding was that the public school kids are doing better in some areas, probably due to their parents' involvement . . . as the study found that the public school kids' parents spent more time working with them on their schoolwork.

    Ayers was not on the Joyce Board, but by then, he and Obama had been working together on education boards for years -- and vouchers are one of Ayers' fave ideas.  Would that he had used some of that $50 million in his Annenberg grant for Chicago schools to try this experiment there.  Of course, similar results there might not have helped Obama, who made his chairing of the board for Ayers' grant project on his political resume in running for Senate.  

    Parent

    Active funding of vouchers, (none / 0) (#100)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:44:09 PM EST
    per Cream City.

    Parent
    It's always the cover up (none / 0) (#101)
    by standingup on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:52:12 PM EST
    that gets them in trouble.  I don't understand why Obama and Axelrod didn't have a better prepared explanation for his past working relationship with Ayers?  Why risk coming off as having something to hide with a less than honest answer?  

    Parent
    Good question (none / 0) (#105)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 12:44:27 AM EST
    I think it's instinctive with him, which is what troubles me.  It's like his habit of blaming staffers for things he screws up.  They may well have had some careful phrasing worked out, but when push came to shove, he reflexively reverted to the habit of minimizing and denial.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#69)
    by Julianne on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:41:12 PM EST
    Don't be so dammed trusting - at least not where obama is concerned. You'll live to regret it. I'm afraid we're all going to.

    Parent
    Right-o (none / 0) (#70)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:46:35 PM EST
    Damned if you do (none / 0) (#71)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:53:16 PM EST
    You know the drill. Vote for McCain who has ties to Contra terrorist group
    http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=E3838B28-18FE-70B2-A86B479F41B11157
    and will tax your health care benefits from your employer.
    And has voted against veterans and the military when he deigns to show up.
    http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/articleid/9559


    Parent
    no (none / 0) (#119)
    by connecticut yankee on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 10:15:14 AM EST
    YOu are truncating the quote. Go look up the full quote and stop carrying McCain's water.

    Parent
    you know what they say about assuming. (1.00 / 0) (#43)
    by patriotgames on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:54:55 PM EST
    And should a politician (or an opportunistic lawyer)  REALY be assuming anyway?

    Parent
    "Assuming" is a problem (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:30:31 PM EST
    when the answer to the lack of experience is judgment.  He trusted others' judgments and didn't evaluate the situation to judge for himself?

    Parent
    You know what (none / 0) (#48)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:02:39 PM EST
    I'll assume whatever the heck I want, and you can kindly shove off.

    Parent
    and you can too. (none / 0) (#49)
    by patriotgames on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:03:40 PM EST
    you don't have to read my stuff and I don't have to read yours.

    Parent
    well (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by connecticut yankee on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:45:46 PM EST
    When McCain explains his association with G Gordon Liddy, this might be more interesting to me.

    G Gorgon LIddy was 10x the threat to America that Ayers was.

    Parent

    Hahaha (2.00 / 1) (#88)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:03:26 PM EST
    G. Gordon is hardly a threat to anyone.  He never bombed people in the US, he never killed anyone, like Doryn and Ayers did.  I'm sorry, but those two are horrible people who tried to kill people at the Pentagon, and did kill others with their bombs.  I truly hope and pray that Obama is NOT their friend.  

    Parent
    ha! (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by connecticut yankee on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:27:45 PM EST
    You are terribly confused.

    G Gordon Liddy sat in the White House (you may have heard of it) and laid out plans to kidnap, drug and assassinate american citizens.  You may have also heard something about his efforts to steal political information and bug nixon's opponents.

    The weathermen were a joke as far as being a threat to national security. Liddy, and those like him, were a real threat.

    And Liddy is also the moron who told his listeners in the 90s to make sure they shot federal agents in the head so as to avoid body armor.

    He's also the moron who has expressed his attachment to adolph hitler and the nazi salute. He wrote that Hitler's speeches gave him goosebumps and then when he hears the national anthem, his instincts are to give a nazi salute.

    He's also a buddy of McCain's.

    Parent

    you mean (1.00 / 1) (#26)
    by patriotgames on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:30:19 PM EST
    Obama lies about Ayers.

    "That's not the Bill Ayers I know...."?????

    Parent

    McCain's toes to terroriists (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:41:40 PM EST
    Maybe people who live in glass houses....I think you can finish the sentence.
    http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=E3838B28-18FE-70B2-A86B479F41B11157

      I don't think I know any politician who has totally clean hands. Perhaps it is time to move on.


    Parent

    Toes = Ties (none / 0) (#36)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:43:35 PM EST
    But I think toes might have worked too. ;-)


    Parent
    And welcome to NY BTD. (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:32:52 PM EST


    Dodgers v. Phillies. (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:41:58 PM EST
    M. Ramirez hits gets an RBI in the first inning.  

    And the Phillies win (none / 0) (#73)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:07:50 PM EST
    Phillies take the first game against the Dodgers with a score of 3-2.

    Parent
    Turned in for the last couple of minutes (none / 0) (#76)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:37:59 PM EST
    by chance.

    Go Phillies!

    Parent

    A lot of really enthusiastic (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:39:49 PM EST
    Phillies' fans in the stands tonight. But I've heard they can turn on a dime.  

    Parent
    Obama ad on TBS (play off game) (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 07:47:45 PM EST
    in So Cal.

    Darrell Hammond (none / 0) (#57)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 08:37:05 PM EST
    has found his McCain groove.  I didn't think this would be funny but it is!

    Sarah Clears Herself (none / 0) (#62)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 09:13:20 PM EST
    A troubling trend (none / 0) (#77)
    by Lora on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:38:15 PM EST
    For a long time, when any suggestion that the 2004 election was stolen by the GOP was discussed on the so-called liberal blogs, it was met with dismissal and denial.  Then it was met with ridicule.  Then we moved up to dead silence.  Now, when more and more people are investigating the evidence for themselves and beginning to really question the party line (that's BOTH parties' lines, actually) that Bush beat Kerry fair and square in 2004, we are seeing something new.

    Now we hear folks insisting that although the 2004 election was indeed stolen, the way to win this one is to send so many people to the polls that any dirty tricks will be overwhelmed by the wave of electoral support for Obama/Biden.

    Whoa!  Hold the phone!  For years, we've been telling these guys that the election was indeed stolen, and we've been ridiculed and ignored.  Now, all of a sudden they're admitting it as if everyone already knew it?

    Win by numbers and never mind the dirty tricks? Heh.  I've got NEWS for them:  That's exactly what they said in 2004 when we warned them of the election stealers' dirty trick then! Yep, we knew about them in 2004.  We've been studying them since about November, 2000.

    And....WHO won in 2004?  Think about it.

    You cannot count on sheer numbers to win the presidency for Obama.  Voter purges, voter challenges, funny voting machines and vote totals that are made in secret by Republican-supporting companies, chains of custody of ballots and machines that would be utterly shameful if used for evidence in any trial, tricks of the ballot design, tricks of reporting, and scare tactics to keep voters home--- long, long lines, not enough machines, breakdowns, absentee and provisional ballots that aren't even counted---that combined with blatant lies designed to intimidate would-be voters and suppress the vote, and label one party as engaging in voter fraud---

    To blithely say that our sheer numbers will outweigh all of these (and more) ill-begotten schemes is either terribly naive or deliberately misleading.

    History repeats itself unless we prevent it.

    Alert: Do NOT vote straight party (none / 0) (#79)
    by Lora on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:44:56 PM EST
    An alert to all those voting on electronic voting machines (Lord help us!) this election:

    Do NOT vote the straight Democratic party ticket!

    A couple of states have separated the presidential race from the straight party ticket, which could cause some people to forget to vote for President.

    With plenty of other states, the software is questionable and your vote may not be properly recorded.

    Vote for each race separately and you will have a better shot at getting your vote counted as intended.

    Post this (none / 0) (#81)
    by themomcat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 10:48:01 PM EST
    in the current Open Thread. Thanks for the warning.


    Parent
    This is an open thread. (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:32:16 PM EST
    Don't we always have to vote like that? (none / 0) (#91)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:13:49 PM EST
    In my state, we have to vote for each race separately.  We do  not have the ability to check "All Democrats"  or "Only democrats".   We have to vote for each race on the ballot.   Isn't that the law everywhere?  

    Or are you saying do not vote the straight party ticket, meaning you must vote for a republican for some office, to be sure all the other democrat votes count?  

    Parent

    I've voted straight party (none / 0) (#126)
    by Lora on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 07:48:24 PM EST
    BrassTacks,

    On the old-fashioned lever machines, I have in the past (1 short presidential election ago) been able to flip one single lever and voted for my party in all races.

    I don't recall how it was for the mid-terms when I voted on one of our spanking new electronic machines.  However, there are apparently electronic voting machines on which you can push one button and vote straight party for all the races.

    I did not mean "vote Republican once so the Democratic votes count."  I meant, vote for each race separately as it seems you must do anyway.

    Parent

    He's going to announce a HUGE expansion (none / 0) (#90)
    by BrassTacks on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 11:07:46 PM EST
    of government like the New Deal?  I doubt that.  The Federal government was rather small in 1932 and most people paid no taxes.  Things are not like that today.  I don't think that huge tax increase to pay for a huge expansion in government is going to work.  People are too strapped to go for a big tax increase to pay for a big government increase.  

    So close to the election, Obama won't say anything other than he will make things all better, everyone will get free stuff, only rich people (undefined) might have to pay more in taxes, and the current mess is all the fault of Bush.  

    Where's BTD today? <eom> (none / 0) (#117)
    by votermom on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 09:13:42 AM EST


    Oops. I obviously need coffee<eom> (none / 0) (#118)
    by votermom on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 09:14:25 AM EST
    I think (none / 0) (#120)
    by connecticut yankee on Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 10:18:13 AM EST
    He'll run an infomercial highlighting how careful and safe he is as a candidate.  It will be aimed at the heart of McCain's "risky" frame.  Just six days before the vote.

    Wall street an g7 connections conspericy (none / 0) (#128)
    by jerr111 on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:49:28 AM EST
     Dow pluges an so does trillions of debt owed to sharholders. So does any one get the point or everyone missing the real deal.Companys who have billions of outstanding shares in market now become fraction of what sharholders paid for them. To me sounds like companys are loving this around world they get to buy back there stock at 10 percent or lest what sharholders paid for it gets to keep other 90 percent as profit tax free of course. Oh ya plus returns on investment used with money invested in the stock companys used who knows were.  Lets bail them out too just for good measure make it all look good. Dumb fed or dumb tax payers. Our goverments has to be blind not to see whats happening. People of world need to wake up an say no more b.s.