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Constitutional Minutia: The Vice Presidency

Glenn Reynolds keeps writing about the constitutional role of the Vice Presidency issue that came up in the VP debate. Reynolds wrote about the issue in 2007 (I was unconvinced by his argument, but hell, maybe lots of other people were convinced) and now points to Josh Chafetz's piece at TNR. Chafetz gives a historic rundown of the original view of the Vice Presidency in the Constitution:

[O]ur Founding Fathers created a system in which the vice presidency went to the Electoral College runner-up. And even though they didn't anticipate the role that political parties would come to play, they knew enough to understand that this meant that the president and vice president might well be rivals. As a result, the Constitution gives the vice president no executive role at all, other than waiting for the president to die, resign, or become incapacitated. . . . The Founders didn't think that the executive role of the vice president would be flexible; they thought it would be almost non-existent. [Chafetz expressly concedes that the Vice President was envisioned as having a Legislative Branch role when he writes "Roger Sherman put it at the Philadelphia Convention, 'If the vice president were not to be President of the Senate, he would be without employment.'"]

It was not until the 1800 election, in which Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr tied in the Electoral College and it took 36 rounds of ballots in the House of Representatives before Jefferson emerged victorious, that it became clear what mischief could be worked by the original structure of the Electoral College [I disagree with Chafetz on this point as well, the flaw in the system of selecting the Vice President was first revealed in the 1796 election that placed Jefferson, by then a bitter political opponent of the Federalists and President John Adams, as Vice President.] That election led to the ratification of the Twelfth Amendment, which ensured that the party with enough electoral votes to choose the president would also get to choose the vice president. It was the Twelfth Amendment, not the 1789 Constitution, that made it possible for the vice president to assume more of a role within the executive branch--although it was not until the Harding Administration in the early 1920s that the vice president (Calvin Coolidge) regularly attended cabinet meetings, and it was FDR who first used his vice president (John Nance Garner) as a liaison to Congress.

(Emphasis supplied.) Chafetz purports to be slamming Palin here but in fact he is supporting her statements in the debate, unless one views 1804 (the year the 12th Amendment was ratified) as far removed from 1787 (I posit that would be a strange view given the fact Marbury v. Madison was decided in 1804 and we certainly think of Marbury as a "founding moment.") For Chafetz himself concedes that "[i]t was the Twelfth Amendment, not the 1789 Constitution, that made it possible for the vice president to assume more of a role within the executive branch . . ." (Emphasis mine.) And the Twelfth Amendment did not in any way change the Vice Presidential role in the Legislative Branch.

The fact is it was Biden who completely mangled the issue in the debate. And Chafetz admits this:

[Biden] sa[id] that "Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch." It is true that Article I mentions the vice president, but Article I is devoted entirely to the legislative branch. In fact, let's look at what Article I, section 3, clause 4 actually says: "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided."

But then Chafetz decides to rewrite Gwen Ifill's awful question:

Although Palin never directly answered Ifill's question, she seemed generally supportive of Cheney's position [on privilege claims], whereas Biden was clearly opposed.

This is simply false. Let's review exactly what Ifill asked:

IFILL: Governor, you mentioned a moment ago the constitution might give the vice president more power than it has in the past. Do you believe as Vice President Cheney does, that the Executive Branch does not hold complete sway over the office of the vice presidency, that it it is also a member of the Legislative Branch?

Chafetz may have wanted Ifill to ask the question he presents, but she did not. She simply was ignorant of the issue. Indeed, Ifill is, like most of the Media (see how NYTimes Ed Board mangled it), is pretty ignorant on most every issue. Palin answered the question Ifill asked, and correctly in my view.

Chafetz writes:

[I]t should give us pause that both vice presidential candidates have some pretty strange ideas about the history and structure of the office to which they aspire.

I submit that of the 3 people on the stage that night, Palin was the one who got it right on that question. Ifill had no idea what the issue was about and Biden was the one who got it just plain wrong. It is ridiculous that the Left and the Left allies in the Media tried to use this episode to attack Palin. For it was the Media and the Democratic candidate who embarrassed themselves in this episode, not Sarah Palin.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    The narrative is that Palin is incoherent (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by ruffian on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:35:36 AM EST
    This particular stopped clock can't be right even twice a day. BTD, you are standing between writers in all media and their narrative.

    Upton Sinclair:

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.

    As long as people have a stake in Palin being incoherent, they won't understand a word she says.

    There are three, maybe four things which can (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by scribe on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:47:09 AM EST
    be drawn from this dispute, and one clear conclusion.  In no particular order:

    1.  While it is correct to say that the flaw of the Electoral College runner-up became apparent post the 1796 Election, it is equally correct to say that it really manifested itself as a flaw, as opposed to a source of annoyance, post the 1800 election, when Burr became VP.  

    It needs be remembered that Burr, in addition to being VP, during that term found time to (a) shoot Hamilton to death in a duel, (b) engage in plotting with General Wilkinson and others to divide the Country - particularly the Southwest (today's Mississippi, Tennessee and such) - and enter into league with Spain, (c) start in motion the chain of events which led to his treason trial where Chief Justice Marshall presided (IIRC) and (d) other monkeyshines which I've forgotten about.

    One can only imagine what chicaneries he participated in vis-a-vis the Senate.  I haven't read much of the history lately.

    In other words, Burr was the Deadeye Dick Cheney of his day, differing only in the (highly pertinent) facts (a) that President Jefferson did not delegate to him any authority nor any access, precluding his using the bureaucracy for his own ends (b) he didn't have an Addington or Libby working with and for him and (c) the guy he shot, died.  But, in those days, personal diplomacy and the lack of a body of precedent confining the VP left Burr a more open playing field and the US' newness (the Brits hadn't yet stopped scheming how to get us back, as the War of 1812 would prove) and relative weakness on the world stage (we were, in many respects, a Third World country with all the attendant institutional weaknesses) made many more opportunities for one man to make mischief.

    2.  The 12th Amendment reconfigured the Executive Branch in two basic ways - revising the method for electing its members, and firmly seating the Vice-President in it, leaving such Legislative duties as he had untouched.

    It accomplished this in two ways.  First, by having the people vote for electors for President and for Vice-President.  Implicitly, this new structure recognized the presence of political parties - well-established by 1804 - and the possibility of "teams" of candidates being put forwrd by them.  Explicitly, the placement of the revision on how to elect the Vice-President with revisions on how to elect the President would, through the ordinary rules of statutory (and Constitutional) construction, indicate that the drafters and ratifiers of that Amendment intended to and did place the Vice-President in the Executive Branch.

    3.  The subtleties of these points of Constitutional law are largely lost on everyone outside of a small cadre of academics, politicians and lawyers.  I count myself as residing in one of the outer circles of that society as I am probably the only lawyer on this site who actually had to do real-live legal research on whether and how to address the problems implicated by the 12th Amendment, how it works, and what it means, back in the fall of 2000.  At the time,  I was involved in a lawsuit (whose topic was wholly unrelated to anything political) in which a then-sitting member of Congress was one of the parties and in which the judge was pressing for "movement".  Given that the recount had still not been decided and Bush v. Gore had not reached the S.Ct., things were in a state of flux and we defendants were looking for anything we could toss into the gears to slow the case down - thus the idea to make a motion for a stay on the basis that the 12th Amendment required that Member's presence in D.C. to participate in the proceedings in the House which, at that point, looked quite likely, and not in some civil courtroom far from there.  It got to the drafting stage before we got delay from another quarter, so it was never filed.

    My involvement with the 12th Amendment was - to be fair - pretty tangential at best.  But it's surely 100 times greater than Gwen Ifill, Sarah Palin or any other talking head's.  I actually read it.  So, when Gwen asks a question about it (implicitly or explicitly), the one thing clear is that she knows nothing about what she's asking about.  No good journalist should allow themselves to be placed in such a situation, but there she was.  And, when Palin (or Biden) answers a question about it, you can be sure that her flash cards indicated that the Republicans are quite happy with the way Cheney ran the VP's office (they'd surely howl if Biden were to run a similar operation, but leave that aside) and gave her something innocuous-sounding that would go down like sugar with medicine.  

    4.  The most key point, however, is that the vacuum of precedent on how the VP's office is to run and its true role in the Executive Branch, together with a relative lack of scholarship (budding law professors, take note!) on it left an opening for Cheney to dive into.  This is not a new issue, seeing as how Reagan made Bush I his "crisis manager" and kept him fully read-in on goings on in the Executive Branch.  I'd suspect an honest history would indicate Reagan had little idea how to use the VP and someone (not Bush I, but surely an ally/collegaue of his) put the idea in Ronnie's ear.  I think an honest history would also recognize that keeping the VP in this dimension and outside of it at the same time was recognized by the Republicans as an opportunity, not a flaw.  It's just that Cheney has taken this to a wholly new expanse.

    In reality, Cheney is and has been operating in a manner not very different from a regent handling the affairs of an ailing, crazy or immature king in a monarchy where the king has real power.  All he has to do is wave a paper signed by the King saying "please do what Dick asks, as I have deputized him and I back him fully" and the subordinates are obligated to obey.  The problem with regents is precisely that they are unaccountable to anyone except the king.  As to the king, the regent's first step is to put him in a bubble, the methods of which Cheney learned well in his work as Ford's CofS.  Having taken care of accountability, Cheney is free to remake anything, any way he wants.

    As to Palin, imagine her being encouraged to hire Addington as a chief of staff and taking on Cheney as an adviser.  That's the objective with her - make her a captive mouthpiece.  She's shown herself quite willing and capable there.

    Great comment (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:56:18 AM EST
    Glad you like it. Send money. (none / 0) (#11)
    by scribe on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:02:16 AM EST
    I own it now (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:08:19 AM EST
    You posted it on our blog.

    Heh.

    Parent

    Copyright retained by the author. (none / 0) (#31)
    by scribe on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:37:00 PM EST
    Posting constitutes a limited license by the author, but does not effect a transfer of ownership, nor of any fraction thereof.

    Heh.

    Parent

    As I read the posts and your comment (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 12:16:03 PM EST
    I'm thinking--I'd be interested in reading a book on the history of the office of Vice President and how the various VPs used the office.  Will you write it, Scribe?  

    Parent
    That would doubtless be a lot of fun (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by scribe on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:34:27 PM EST
    Unfortunately, when I say "Glad you liked it.  Send money." I'm not kidding.  If you or any other sane person saw my financials, after you got done puking, you'd probably tell me to stop blogging and start earning.  Fast.

    Thing is, I can't see the point of earning when there's no freedom.  (It does present an interesting social problem with a real potential to be  embarrassing when a lot of your friends, classmates and acquaintances are making in the six or seven figures, but let's set that aside.) I like to think that, in my own little - emphasize little - part, I'm contributing to both dispelling some of the fogs of ignorance and stupidity (two different things) and lies which surround too much of the discourse concerning the place where politics and law meet.  And, I like to think that, in that same way, I'm helping to preserve something akin to the freedoms enjoyed even thirty years ago.

    I'm not one of those folks who likes to run wild exulting in their freedoms, turning liberty into license as it were.  Rather, I'm one who likes the idea that there's a wilderness out there not for the fact that I'm going to go running off to live there but rather that such remains possible.  

    I'm not much older than Obama, but I'm old enough to remember when someone could, in fact, leave a bad situation, go a couple states away, and get a fresh start.  Without having to deal with databases and internet records and all-seeing police databases continuing to hound someone with the past they'd left behind long after whatever debt they'd incurred had been paid.

    Sadly, people have been fed fear for breakfast, lunch and dinner and, when they became ill from that diet, were given more fear to settle their stomachs.  That's been going on now for well in excess of thirty years - shoot, it's been going on since time immemorial.  But, in the last thirty or forty years, the difference has been that there is an organized structure behind the fear-feedings, and it's being used to turn average people into quivering blobs of mush who are afraid of their own shadows, for the purposes of the people doing the feedings.  

    More sadly, people refuse to recognize that every fear they suffer is, reduced to its kernel, one and the same with every other fear.  They fear dying.  I hate to tell them - but that's as inevitable as the sun rising tomorrow.  Once you realize that - really realize it - then you also realize there is no point in being fearful any more.  

    Unfortunately, almost everything that gets put out there into the media is pointed to hide that truth.  A friend had a relative of my acquaintance who, through a combination of circumstances, upbringing and disposition, became a serious alcoholic and drug addict.  We're talking IV stuff, off and on, for going on 30 years.  It got to the point with the alcohol that this person's metabolism was so perverted by the alcohol addiction that it could no longer digest food.  This person would eat, and not digest.  Take away the alcohol, and this person started to starve.  This person was refused a spot on the transplant list(s) (I forget exactly what had to be replaced, but it started with the liver) and yet manages to hang on - it's been about 5 years since the last great episode.  I'm not sure how - I think it's out of sheer cussedness.

    That's the place our society is headed if we do not get past the fear and fear-mongering.  If we do not recognize that there is no point in being fearful, because it only wastes time and effort and poisons lives.

    I recently read a blog written by another former acquaintance (they haven't seen each other in >20 years) of a friend.  This person is deeply into the whole cult of carrying a concealed firearm.  Specialized clothes, equipment, selection of weapons, etc. I don't begrudge that to this person - they say it's a free country, after all - but I don't see the point in two regards.  First, I'm of the school which believes that, if you're carrying, you're much more likely to look for and find trouble than if you are not.  I've lived in some seriously bumpy, if not rough, neighborhoods and the only time I was mugged was on vacation.  But I never felt a need to go armed.  Second, I also believe that, if you go armed and find trouble, you are more likely to either use it or have it used on you.  Neither of these results is desirable, in my book.

    But all those arguments are baroque curlicues on and distractions from the central issue - that this person is seized by some fear which manifests itself in a need to go armed.  It's just a manifestation of the same thing I was talking about earlier, and just as useless.  

    And just as poisonous.

    So, I don't think I'll be getting to the book-writing anytime soon.

    Parent

    Re concealed weapons: (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:43:15 PM EST
    I listened to a Terry Gross (Fresh Air, NPR radio) interview of J. Chestnut, first black lawyer in Selma.  He sd. he always carried a gun, for self protection; and Martin Luther King never carried a gun.  When Chestnut found out King had been shot and killeed, Chestnut threw his gun into the river.  

    Parent
    When I carry. (none / 0) (#49)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:36:18 AM EST
    First, I'm of the school which believes that, if you're carrying, you're much more likely to look for and find trouble than if you are not.

    When I carry, it is just the opposite.  I take extra double caution to avoid trouble, and always have a plan to exit in a hurry.  Most folks that I know that carry have the same thought on the matter.  

    Parent

    Fair enough - but that just means (none / 0) (#50)
    by scribe on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 03:51:25 PM EST
    you and I are from different schools.

    You look for trouble to avoid it.  I would look to avoid trouble and find it or have it find me.

    If I were to find trouble and be carrying, I know I'd find worse trouble. Not carrying, I know I must retreat and avoid trouble.

    Parent

    This is exactly right: (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by esmense on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:35:53 AM EST
    "That's the objective with her - make her a captive mouthpiece.  She's shown herself quite willing and capable there."

    Which is why the Left does itself, and the media does the Left, a disservice when they attack her so personally, most especially in terms of gender and class, rather than making a full-throated attack on the ideology that she is simply being asked to represent. (And does as good a job of representing as anyone else in her party. Better, in fact, than many.)

    Bill Kristol, for instance, spouts EXACTLY the same kind of nonsense -- and has been doing so in a variety of influential ways for years -- and is rewarded with a column in the NY Times. Why would anyone believe, when his collegues at the Times mock Palin, that they are distressed by the nature of her ideas rather than simply dismissive of her less elite credentials and class (and, of course, gender)?  

    Palin isn't a problem because she went to the University of Idaho and governs a distant Western state. She is a problem because she is a "mouth-piece" for elite ideas promoted by Harvard educated ideologues like Kristol, Norquist, etc. All of whom, by the way, are treated quite respectfully by the media. Destructive ideas (for the nation at large, although self-serving for the nation's elite) that the same media that mocks Palin now have consistently provided with a respectful platform and helped entrench, in terms of economics especially, as part of the nation's "common wisdom."

    Parent

    If you've been paying attention (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by scribe on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:42:15 PM EST
    You would have noted that Obama's speeches have had a consistent theme:  what we're going through is the fruit of the Republicans' philosophy as expressed over the last thirty years through their governance, and come January 20 when I'm elected President, that philosophy is dead.

    Palin as mouthpiece is a much easier attack than Palin as fruit of a failed philosophy.  Attacking her philosophical bases is a little too-high concept, but people can get "she's not credible, she speaks gibberish and must be full of sh*t" without too much trouble.

    Parent

    When the message is (none / 0) (#44)
    by esmense on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 03:44:53 PM EST
    "she speaks gibberish and must be full of sh*t" merely because of class (or gender) Democrats gain nothing.

    When the New York Times puts Kristol and other elite conservatives on their opinion page they are legitimizing conservative arguments and ideas. The same destructive arguments Palin is making.

    Defeating Palin is meaningless if the ideas she has merely been chosen to be a spokesman for are still supported by the elite media and entrenched in their notion of the "common wisdom."

    Parent

    By the way Obama hasn't always been as (none / 0) (#45)
    by esmense on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 03:48:24 PM EST
    consistent as you suggest. And many of his elite Neo-liberal and Neo-Conservative supporters -- Andrew Sullivan over at The Atlantic, for instance -- actually share many of Palin's economic views.

    Parent
    I always thought (none / 0) (#14)
    by Steve M on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:15:34 AM EST
    that the modern conception of the VP dated not to Reagan/Bush, but to Carter/Mondale.

    Parent
    That's my understanding too (none / 0) (#15)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:32:38 AM EST
    Though it has been refined over time.

    Parent
    Great comment (none / 0) (#37)
    by KVFinn on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 02:17:00 PM EST
    Nice analysys!

    You should post this stuff on a blog or someplace where more people can see it.

    Parent

    I disagree generally (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Maryb2004 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:53:54 AM EST
    but not specifically (not about Biden mangling his answer, I agree with that).  

    Ifill mangled the question but she specifically didn't ask whether the constitution gives the vice president more power than the office has had in the past.  She simply stated that was Palin's position. And I don't disagree with that position.  And Ifill didn't ask her to explain or defend that position.

    Ifill asked Palin if the Vice President was "also a member of the Legislative Branch?"  That was the question.  Everything else (correct or not, including Dick Cheney's position) was a preamble to the question. Do you, Governor Palin, believe the Vice President is a member of the  Legislative Branch?"  That was the only question.    Palin could have said no. But she didn't.  She also could have schooled Ifill on the position of Cheney (which as I recall is that since the VP is created under the Executive but participates on the Legislative side he occupies his own branch).  

    Should Ifill have asked the question better? Yes. Should she have drawn a distinction between the powers and the privileges of the VP?  Yes.

    But moderators always ask dumb questions and we still have to draw conclusions about the candidates from their answers.

    Palin didn't address the question asked or the question implied. Does that mean we aren't to draw any conclusion about her beliefs on the implied question?  I don't think so.

    I think her answer could lead someone to reasonably conclude she is in general agreement with Dick Cheney on issues concerning the Vice Presidency.  

    And since the question was tied in a general way to Dick Cheney's arguments concerning where the VP fits in the constitutional structure which impacts not only the powers but the privileges of the VP, it isn't unreasonable to think that she must generally agree with Dick Cheney on that issue or she would have voiced SOME negative in her answer.  

    So while I don't disagree with you on the detail I think these other pundits are more correct than you because they are looking at the forest and you are looking at the trees.  Which doesn't negate your argument that they are engaging in sloppy writing.

    Draw your conclusions (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:00:48 AM EST
    Your comment does not address Palin's answer and explain what you disagree with.

    BTW, what conclusion did you draw from Biden's clearly incorrect answer?


    Parent

    Nice to see that for BTD 'fair and balanced' (none / 0) (#1)
    by barryluda on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:01:34 AM EST
    is not just a slogan, but the way he analyses issues and writes his posts.

    For me, I think that Palin got this right by accident.  Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

    Can't concede even an inch? (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by tootired on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:24:45 AM EST
    The role of the Vice President is carefully covered in American Politics 101 at our local state college. Even someone with as "limited an education" as some here seem to think Governor Palin has had could easily have learned that without benefit of an ivy league education. Maybe she took the time to learn exactly what her duties and responsibilities would be if she is elected VP. She certainly got panned enough for saying that she wasn't sure what the VP did in an earlier interview. Guess Biden wasn't so sure either.

    Parent
    I appreciate the analysis. (none / 0) (#3)
    by Coral on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:27:15 AM EST
    Time for me to reread the Constitution. Thanks, BTD.

    I'm looking at Ifill's question: (none / 0) (#5)
    by steviez314 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:46:40 AM EST
    IFILL: Governor, you mentioned a moment ago the constitution might give the vice president more power than it has in the past. Do you believe as Vice President Cheney does, that the Executive Branch does not hold complete sway over the office of the vice presidency, that it it is also a member of the Legislative Branch?

    It seems to me that her question is not about the constitution, but about "Do you believe as VP Cheney does..."

    It seems clear to me that the Constitution, while defining a role for the VP vis-a-vis the Senate, also makes it clear that the VP is NOT a "member of the Legislative Branch":

    Section 1 - The Legislature

    All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

    Section 3 - The Senate

    The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State

    .

    Presiding over the Senate does not make the VP a member of the Legislative Branch any more than presiding over matters of Impeachment makes the Chief Justice one.

    Ahhh (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 10:58:27 AM EST
    Well when you decide to REWRITE Ifill's question (leaving out her express words to boot) and leave out parts of the sections of the Constitution you do not want to address, well, then you win.

    Sorry Stevie, but this is extremely weak.

    Parent

    I disagree: (none / 0) (#12)
    by steviez314 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:07:43 AM EST
    1.  I did not rewrite any question.  If a question begins at the end of a prior sentence and concludes with the question mark, then I think I know what the question was.

    2.  I could excerpt the entire constitution and not find a single sentence that claims the VP is a MEMBER of the Legislative Branch.  I can address any part you'd like that indicates the opposite.


    Parent
    LEt's see (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:40:12 AM EST
    I quote you now:

    "IFILL: Governor, you mentioned a moment ago the constitution might give the vice president more power than it has in the past. Do you believe as Vice President Cheney does, that the Executive Branch does not hold complete sway over the office of the vice presidency, that it it is also a member of the Legislative Branch?

    It seems to me that her question is not about the constitution, but about "Do you believe as VP Cheney does...""

    You dropped the BOLDED part. To me that is rewriting the question.

    As for whether the Vice President is a
    "member of the Legislative Branch" I would refer you to two parts of the Constitution.

    One expressly names the Vice President the President of the Senate.

    The other provides the Vice President with a vote in case of a tie.

    Do you not believe those two provision militate towards a finding that the Vice President is indeed, at least in part, a part of the Legislative Branch.

    Here's a question, was Al Gore acting in a legislative or executive capacity when he cast the deciding vote in the Senate to pass the Clinton tax plan in 1993?

    Recall that Article 2 states that the "Executive Power is vested in the President of the United States."

    Now, go forth and tie yourself in a knot.

    I think "flexibility" is the watchword here.

    Parent

    Again.. (none / 0) (#19)
    by steviez314 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 12:07:41 PM EST
    1.  I didn't drop the bolded part, I just used ellipses, since the bolded part was printed in full in the paragraph above.  Just wanted to save some blog space.

    2.  President of the Senate (ex. tie vote) has no legislative power.  He/she (hopefully only "he" for the next 4 years) presides over the Senate.  If you look at the Rules of the Senate, presiding over the Senate means little more than being a court clerk Senate Rules.

    3.  As to a tiebreak vote, considering the VP has no standing to propose the legislation he's voting on, or even engage in debate over the bill, I cannot really see an argument that the VP is a MEMBER of the Legislative Branch, rather he is fulfilling a single constitutional perogative.

    4.  Re Article 2, Sec 1, remember the rest of that sentence you quoted and the following paragraph indicate how the Pres and VP are elected, and that their terms of office are coincident.  Article 1 details the election of members of the Legislative Branch and specifically that The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State.

    5.  Lastly, Dick Cheney's "flexibility" is not that he part of the Legislative Branch, but that he is NOT part of the Executive Branch.  He's not arguing he's both--he says he's neither.  That's a tad too much flexibility to be implied in any case.


    Parent
    VP as part of the executive is historically recent (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Manuel on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 12:50:44 PM EST
    From the Sente Web Site

    The Constitution provides for two officers to preside over the Senate. The vice president of the United States is designated as the president of the Senate. In this capacity, the vice president was expected to preside at regular sessions of the Senate, casting votes only to break ties. From John Adams in 1789 to Alben Barkley in 1952, presiding over the Senate was the chief function of vice presidents, who had an office in the Capitol, received their staff support and office expenses through the legislative appropriations, and who often were not invited to participate in cabinet meetings or other executive activities. In 1953, Vice President Richard M. Nixon changed the vice presidency by moving his chief office from the Capitol to the White House, by directing his attention to executive functions, and by attending Senate sessions only at critical times when his vote, or ruling from the chair, might be necessary. Vice presidents since Nixon's time have followed his example.


    Parent
    Dick Cheney's thoery (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:04:10 PM EST
    as to the 4th branch was not posed by Ifill.

    I am sorry but you folks wanted Palin to answer a question that was not posed.

    Your 5 is a nonsequitor.

    Parent

    I think Ifill's question (which YOU bolded) (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by steviez314 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:31:36 PM EST
    was exactly about what Palin thought about Cheney's view.

    I also think sometimes you are so (rightly) anti-Palinpalooza regarding the left and other bloggers that you present a 100% certainty about an issue's interpretation that isn't there.

    But you are a member of the Contributors Branch while I am only a member of the Commenters Branch, so you do have a right to a well-regulated minutia.

    Parent

    Then you read in (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 02:05:56 PM EST
    invisible ink or invisible words.

    Ifill did not say a word about Cheney's 4th branch theory.

    You dignify Cheney's silliness with your attempt to equate what Ifill said to it.

    Parent

    Biden? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Maryb2004 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 11:50:19 AM EST
    Truthfully I didn't even notice he got it wrong the night of the debate because I wasn't listening to him very carefully.  During Biden's answer I was still trying to figure out what Palin's answer meant.  Not whether what she said was true or not but what she meant.  She didn't give me anything to work with - she recited truths that didn't tell us what she thought about the question that Ifill was getting at - what limitations are there on the privileges and power of the VP?

    Ifill asked an unclear question that followed up on a previous Palin answer:

    No, no. Of course, we know what a vice president does. And that's not only to preside over the Senate and will take that position very seriously also. I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are ...

    So we know Palin thinks that the role of the VP is not only to preside over the Senate.  That's not untrue on its face.  But it's hard to say what the extent of not only is.  She goes on to state her view that the Constitution allows more authority in working with the Senate if the VP chooses to exert it.  That's not necessarily untrue.  John Adams, the first VP, was very unclear what it meant to be President of the Senate.  However that doesn't come close to telling us what she thinks the extent of that authority is.  And while the rest of her answer isn't wrong it doesn't tell us anything about her view on the limitations of the authority of the VP.

    So Ifill follows up and asks her unartful question that is meant to go to the limitations on the office, and Palin didn't come close to answering it.

    Her entire actual answer was Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president ... Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there ...

    The rest of the answer is her explanation of how she'll use that flexibility.  Do I disagree with her statement?  Not on its face.  But I don't know if I actually disagree with her in essentials because she didn't explain how she thought that flexibility should be interpreted.

    Biden didn't answer it either.  

    So neither one of them answered it.  All I have to go on is the general tenor of their answers.  Biden's tenor came out in his first sentence: Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history..  Palin?   She agrees with Cheney that "we have a lot of flexibility in there".  

    You can get into minutia but a debate isn't a trial.  The viewer has to take away a general impression.

    Do YOU agree with Cheney's fourth branch theory?  And if not, do YOU, listening to them and taking what you know about both of them think that it is more of a risk that Palin would take Cheney's view than Biden?   Personally, I see a risk from both of them - the Executive doesn't give up power or privileges easily.  But I see more of a risk based on Palin's answer than Biden's.

    Cheney;s Fourth Branch Theory (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:02:33 PM EST
    is a nonsequitor to the question posed by Ifill.

    That Ifill was incapable of formulating the question is not my fault and more importantly, not Palin's fault.

    Parent

    Then (none / 0) (#33)
    by Maryb2004 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:44:22 PM EST
    let's talk only about Ifill's question.

    You seem to think the correct answer to Ifill's actual question of whether the VP is a member of the legislative branch is ... Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president ... Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there .

    You think that's a correct answer? I don't.

    And Chafetz statement is not supporting Palin.  It talks solely about the role of the VP in the Executive Branch.  Palin was answering the question as to whether the VP was a member of the legislative branch - and her non-answer seems to leave open the possibility that the "flexibility" of the constitution could mean it is a part of the legislative branch.

    Parent

    Is this incorrect? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 02:03:52 PM EST
    "our founding fathers . . . allow[ed,] through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president ... Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there ."

    I say it is quite correct.

    What is your basis for arguing that it is incorrect? The Chafetz Theory that 1804 is too far in time from the Founding to be considered a part of the Founding period?

    So, would you say Marbury is after the founding period?

    Would Palin have been correct if she had said "the founding Fathers and the immediate aftermath?"

    BTW, Chafetz CONCEDED CHENEY's argument on the VP role in the legislature and a claim of privilege based on it. I find Cheney's claim ludicrous but that is going far afield.

    Gwen Ifill did not know what she was talkiing about in her question, mangled it badly and you want to hang Sarah Palin to a sour apple tree for it.

    Here's my point - there are plenty of things to criticize about Palin - that answer was not one of them.

    On the other hand. Biden's mistakes were quite embarrassingly bad.

    What do you think of the coverage of the respective answers?

    Parent

    I understand your point (none / 0) (#40)
    by Maryb2004 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 02:56:58 PM EST
    but I disagree.  And I am not hanging Palin, I'm discussing her answer. I do not believe I am treating her disrespectfully in this discussion unless you think disagreeing with her or finding her answer too vague is disrespectful.

    I tried to discuss Palin's answer using the exact words of Ifill's mangled question and I've tried to discuss the answer giving everyone the benefit of the doubt that they all understood what Ifill was really asking (even Ifill). You want to have it both ways.  We can't discuss what was behind Ifill's question because she didn't ask that questino and you avoid discussing Ifill's exact question and how Palin's exact answer would be interpreted as an answer to that exact question.

    I've already said I do not disagree in general with the actual words but words do not exist in a vacuum. These words were in response to a question.  And as the answer to the specific question I find her wrong.  And in answer to the implied question I find her troublingly vague.  

    What do you want from me on Biden?  I've already agreed with you on Biden. But here's the thing - even though he had his facts wrong my general takeaway is that he is a better risk than Palin when it comes to actual on-the-job interpretation of the VP's powers and privileges than Palin - based on Palin's response.  

    Parent

    I hope someone brings BTD's post (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 12:18:21 PM EST
    to the attention of Sarah Palin.  I'll defend her to the death, although not vote for her ticket, but I doubt any of BTD's rationales were in her thoughts as she answered the question.  

    I am not into mindreading (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    Words were spoken and written on this.

    Palin's were correct and those on the Left were largely wrong.

    Biden's were clearly and obviously wrong.

    Parent

    You've convinced me, BTD (none / 0) (#47)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 04:03:19 PM EST
    Really, aren't we just talking about media thinking here, not Palin?  Media jumped to declare her answer unacceptable, but not because they have a clue themselves.

    Some of the above word-for-word deconstructions of Palin's answer, ostensibly in aid of understanding her "theory" of vice presidential power, is more than a little ridiculous, IMO.  I can't believe she gave one second's thought to the vice president until she was asked to stand for the job, and is only giving back the general outlines of what her briefers told her.

    This is my whole problem with the way Palin is being analyzed by media, blogs and other pols.  She's very obviously had a single-minded focus on her own local issues.  Why not ask her instead about her theory of the power of governors vis-a-vis their state legislatures?  Or for that matter, what her beliefs are about states' rights and how far they extend.

    If we want to have the slighest hope of figuring out what her general principles are and how she thinks, somebody needs to get around to asking her some day about the issues she's most deeply been involved with in Alaska, not what amount to gotcha questions clearly intended to expose the holes in her knowledge of things totally outside her experience.

    If her briefings covered a particular issue, she'll have at least a few pat phrases to say about it, but that doesn't mean she actually has an opinion of her own about it.  (She might very well develop an opinion, but she's in no position to have one now, something I bet she'd acknowledge freely, at least in private.)  So what's the point?  There is no point except gotcha, I maintain.

    I'm not going to vote for her, now or ever, but it seems pretty insane to me that this very unconventional political character is really being left almost totally unexplored in any meaningful way.

    Parent

    Doggone it, I betcha you're right. </wink> (none / 0) (#22)
    by steviez314 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 12:21:54 PM EST
    Biden miscited, but did not misspeak (none / 0) (#23)
    by Markt4 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 12:30:50 PM EST
    Biden clearly meant to say Article II, which actually, as much as anything in the Constitution, defines the Vice Presidency. Yes, Article I mentions the Vice President twice, once to say the VP is President of the Senate, but can only vote when there is a tie, and once to say the Senate can appoint a President pro tem. to fill in the absence of the Veep. That does not make the Veep a member of Congress, however. Article I, Section 1 vests all legislative powers in the Congress, "which shall consist of a Senate and a House of Representatives."

    Article II, as amended, mentions the Veep six times, and to me, most tellingly, in Section 4: "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." That seems to lump the Veep into the category of "civil Officers of the United States," an executive function.

    But, Sarah Palin was clearly wrong. The Constitution doesn't grant the Veep any powers beyond breaking ties in the Senate and serving as "lady-in-waiting" to the President.

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 12:58:55 PM EST
    Your comment is patently wrong.

    Article 1 delcares the VP "President of the Senate." With a basic mistake like that, what are wwe to make of your comment?

    Parent

    And the President of the Senate does . . . ? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Markt4 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 01:56:19 PM EST
    Break ties. Certainly the presiding officer can rule on procedural issues (parliamentarian stuff), but those rulings are subject to a vote of the body, where said presiding officer gets no vote, unless, of course, there is a tie. The Veep does not set the legislative calendar, determine which bill will come up for a vote, have a role on any committees, and can't really even propose legislation or amendments (not in the formal sense).

    So, the only Constitutionally granted power is to break tie votes (and to succeed a dead or incapacitated President). Where was my comment "patently" wrong?

    Parent

    The Vice PResident (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 02:39:16 PM EST
    is Constitutionally, the President of the Senate.

    HOW the Senate is run is an open question actually Constitutionally.

    You were patently wrong because you ignroed the express language of the Constitution.

    We are not talking about HOW it is run but what the Constitution says.

    Parent

    The Senate makes its own rules (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 02:48:17 PM EST
    If it wanted to allow the VP to make committee appointments and set the calendar, it could.

    Lieutenant Governors in many states serve that role.  

    In 2002 after the Republicans took over the Georgia State Senate, they changed to rules so that the Democratic Lt. Gov. could wash the coffee pot, and not much more.

    Parent

    And a proxy for the Vice President .. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 03:43:56 PM EST
    always presides over the senate.  This is why Senators address all their comments to the President.

    The President they're referring to is the President of the Senate.  

    The Vice President could play this role any time the Senate is in session.  (In the past, many have.) And, by proxy, he always does.

    Parent

    Indeed (none / 0) (#46)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 03:53:24 PM EST
    Thanks BTD! (none / 0) (#41)
    by VicfromOregon on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 03:32:43 PM EST
    It's always reassuring when a person's observations are not based too preponderantly on what they need or want to believe.  Whenever someone interrupts the schoolyard brawl, as you do here, I am that much more hopeful and happier in my day.

    What I believe I saw from Palin's and Biden's answers is that neither candidate would take more of, nor let go of, any of the power and privileges of the Vice Presidency per the direction of the sitting president.

    And, while I realize this office has grown in stature and power through successive presidents awarding these, perhaps congress may want to relook at this position.  But, while they are at it, perhaps they can re-examine the role of the presidency as well.  And, not to leave the work undone, take a long gander at themselves and their roles and responsibilities.

    As a lawyer familiar with constitutional law, Barack Obama could lead on this issue by example.  But, my guess is that many here will look the other way once it is their party "abusing the power" of the office they hold.

    I don't belong to a party because I have difficulty with the suspension of reasoning and the constant press to embrace blind-faith I believe is required in our campaigns, not to leave out the choices always seem to come down to who is the most glamorous or alluring of dishonest politicians and petty criminals. Were political parties, any party, willing to enact even a partial list of their campaign platforms, I might reconsider.  Yet, while politics may be one of life's dirtier necessities, I prefer it to total barbarism.  And, so, I do cheer for the coalition party arrangements found in most progressive democracies, if only for the reason that they make it harder for any one group to wrest power from the other for very long.  But, especially because they continually re-examine the role of president, prime minister, and the like, best represent everyone from all classes which is absent here in America, and have the use of referendum by the public when leaders fail to enact their stated goals.

    I'd much rather be discussing how we get to this more democratic state of governance over whether a particular candidate, once in office, will find a loophole that allows them to "over-assert" their agenda upon the rest.  Given Obama's past in Chicago and McCain's need to finally win an unwinnable war, I don't expect to see any power being returned to the people any time soon.

    The good news, at least as some may see it, is that the president will, again, be running the country rather than the "regent", as alluded to so well in one of the insightful posts here today.  Biden and Palin will both take their orders from the Top Dog.  We will at last once again know to whose door we should be taking our complaints and our praises.

    One other thing worth noting ... (none / 0) (#42)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 03:39:38 PM EST
    is that prior to the ratification of the 25th Amendment there were a number of extended periods in our history during which we had no Vice President.

    The last such period was when Lyndon Johnson served out the rest of Kennedy's term.  He did so without a Vice President.