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Young Voters: Now And Future Democrats?

There is no doubt that Barack Obama is dominating among younger voters. Democracy Corps posits that this will be significant for Democrats over time:

Barack Obama will make history in one week in no small measure due to the enthusiasm and commitment of America’s youth. The Obama campaign awakened a generation. . . . [T]he stability of his support among young people, largely uninterrupted throughout the year, and their growing enthusiasm is nothing short of remarkable and will influence American politics for generations to come.

(Emphasis supplied.) Let's hope it is so. I am curious though if Obama is making his voters Democrats. More . . .

In terms of THIS election, it seems whatever gains Obama has made among younger white voters, and Democracy Corps has Obama winning whites under 30 by 51-38 (while Kerry lost whites under 30 by 55-44) has been offset by losing older whites. The DKos/R2000 poll has McCain winning whites by 55-40 (Kerry lost whites by 41-58). Assuming white youth vote is higher this year and given Obama's gains in that segment, the inescapable conclusion is that Obama is doing worse with whites over 30 than Kerry did. This of course was part of the tradeoff when Obama was nominated instead of Hillary Clinton (along with record African American turnout and margins.)

But Obama seems assured of victory now so that seems less important than whether young whites will vote for Democrats down ticket and in the future. Democracy Corps does not answer these questions. They seem critical to me.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    Well, it matters, but maybe not much (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:08:53 AM EST
    If Teixeira and Judis are right, then we don't need a majority of the white vote. Even John Kerry won the 18-29 vote in Mississippi by a landslide.

    The electorate is changing.

    We don't yet know. . . (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:10:55 AM EST
    what Obama's effect will be.  Governing is not the same as campaigning.

    However, we know that the electoral benefits the Republicans have reaped over the last several decades are due to the fact that they've been as concerned about tearing down the "enemy" (liberals) as they have about building themselves.

    Nothing in Obama's campaign indicates that he sees the world that way.  He's unsparing in his criticism of the specific failures of the Bush Administration, but he doesn't lay the blame for these failures on any particular political philosophy.  Just the opposite, in fact.

    Of course, if this were really the watershed election that some optimistic opinion makers are trying to get us to believe in, there'd be no question that this new wave of voters will be reliably pro-Democrat.  But since the election is largely a response to the horrors of the Bush campaign, it will take a concerted (and justified) effort to stain conservatism, or Republicanism, with inherent problems that they embody.

    One thing about young people (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:32:14 AM EST
    they get older. But while young they hate being lied to. So if Obama doesn't deliver, and he won't, on what ever youngsters thought they were hearing for the last year then those youngsters could get a sour taste in their mouths about Democrats.

    The other thing about youngsters is that they are idealistic. As they grow older they become less so, and they soon begin to realize that their idealism was just that, and that it doesn't do much in securing the American Dream. Those in college working toward that dream may some day think that idealistic regressive taxation on the more educated and accomplished is not as good as a deal as they thought it was when they were poor struggling college students. When they are working to surpass the $250K mark and realize that the harder they work the less they get to keep that regressive taxation will not taste as good as it does today. Who wants to go the extra mile of sacrifice only to have anything over $250K taxed at 40% plus state taxes? Working three times as hard to only keep 50% of what you earned is not the American Dream.

    It's hard to count on youth to stand still in time. Their values and priorities change over time and we can be sure that the GOP will be retooling their message in the next few years to reflect those changes.

    Parent

    Only a small percentage will ever reach 250K (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by joanneleon on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:50:23 AM EST
    A lot depends on inflation, I suppose, but with declining wages in this country, I think it's unlikely that many people will reach the 250K mark.

    Even now, it's a very small percentage of American households -- a much smaller percentage than I thought.

    I wonder if Obama will be able to keep the limit at 250.  We are going to have ever increasing pressure to increase incoming revenue.  Financially, I still don't see how we are going to dig our way out of this, but I'm hopeful that we will have a resurgence of innovation and industry related to the green movement.  More people working, more businesses succeeding, and fewer jobs outsourced to companies with no penalty for doing so will bring a lot of revenue.  I hope it's enough to support the aging population and the trainwreck of an economy left by the Republicans.

    I agree with your other points about the inevitable change in outlook when one gets into real life with a mortgage, children, bills and increasing taxes with increasing salary.  Even the good citizens with generous spirits cringe when they see that at the end of the year they've paid five figures in taxes, sometimes more than the average small family earns in a year, and they still have a hard time saving, and are far from being well off.

    Parent

    $250K Households (2.00 / 0) (#48)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:11:50 PM EST
    A valuable lesson I learned very young was that people set their own limits. In other words their own thoughts and views hold them at whatever ceiling they see themselves at. If they think that they will only ever make $40K then that is all they will ever make. If that same person saw themselves making $75K then chances are they would do what it took to get there. The $40K mentality doesn't do what it takes to get to $75K. It's that simple. Same holds true for $250K. If you want it, expect it, and see yourself as capable then you can get it.

    Parent
    True... (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:11:12 PM EST
    you can achieve anything you want to provided you work hard and don't take no for an answer...up to a point.

    There are other factors that can derail even the most determined...chief among them plain old dumb luck.

    Parent

    And individual abilities vary widely (none / 0) (#102)
    by sallywally on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:08:54 PM EST
    and are affected by many factors....some controllable by the individual and some not.

    But within those limitations, yes.

    Parent

    You can achieve a lot (none / 0) (#111)
    by Fabian on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 04:35:06 AM EST
    if you are willing to sacrifice - family, marriage, leisure time...

    In fact, it's often a lot easier to to succeed professionally if you aren't burdened with other responsibilities and commitments.  Then some patronizing conservative pundit will tell you that you need to start a family younger.  Well he advised women to do that, so I guess men are free to do as they please.

    Parent

    Considering how bad our financial (none / 0) (#83)
    by hairspray on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 02:16:13 PM EST
    picture is now, I doubt the 250k will remain the floor.  Ask any economist about what sacrifices the next generation will have to make and they will tell you that taxes and fees will be much higher. Until the late '70's the wealthy paid over 50% in taxes and the middle class also paid more. It has been since Reagan that the taxes have come down on middle and mostly upper middle and upper income earners.  All of those people will pay more, considerably more.

    Parent
    Only if we continue.... (none / 0) (#85)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 02:29:56 PM EST
    the drunken sailor federal spending.

    Two ways to skin the balanced books cat...increase revenue or decrease spending...I see boatloads of stuff that could be cut before we need to think about any tax increases.

    Parent

    Working three times as hard? (5.00 / 7) (#14)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:51:16 AM EST
    The less you earn measured as an hourly rate, the harder you work - at least in my experience.  My very first job at Mickey D's taught me that employers squeeze everything they can out of minimum wage workers.  You get your OSHA mandated breaks & lunches and not a minute more.

    The less you earn, the harder you work broadly speaking.  The less you earn, the more likely it is you work under uncomfortable and hazardous conditions.  

    Those top income brackets come with a lot of perks.  People may grumble about paying taxes, but tax burden alone isn't incentive enough to give up either the income or those perks.  

    Parent

    Yep. (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by liminal on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:06:58 AM EST
    And, moreover, the success of those earning 250k+ by working "three times as hard" coming up with an ad campaign to find a new way to sell two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun or defending lawsuits brought by customers who got mad cow disease or processing payroll or drawing up real estate contracts for franchisees expanding the business or auditing the books or or or et cetera depends, ultimately, on the hard work and reliability of the people doing the tough, uncomfortable, often unpleasant shift work and actually selling the burgers.  

    And that is pretty much true for all of us.

    Parent

    So the moral of the story is (2.00 / 0) (#58)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:28:47 PM EST
    don't be a minimum wage earner. Get educated high school is free. Community college is cheap. Going into business for yourself is not that expensive. Don't get pregnant at 17 and expect those who were smart enough not to to feel sorry for your decisions. Start where you are and work your way up the ladder, Stay employed. Don't do drugs. Invest in yourself instead of playing on your off time.

    I don't buy your 'poor' minimum wage earner. I was a minimum wage earner when I was young. almost everyone was at one time. If you stay stuck their it is because of the circumstances you created for yourself.

    As for top income brackets, no one on the lower rungs has earned the right to tell me to pay more. I don't mind paying a reasonable higher tax as long as I know where it is going - such as needed social programs etc. But our higher taxes are not targeted and go in a big cesspool of wasted spending. For that reason I don't like paying more.

    Additionally let me ask you, if I was going to take 50% of what you earned over a certain amount would you really work as hard for that last 50% you get to keep over a certain amount as you did for the first dollars you worked for and got to keep 85%? Would you gamble and expand your business for only 50%? Most small business owners would not unless they were able to make a giant leap to a much higher income where the rewards were worth it the higher taxes.

    I remember when I was young and was asked to work overtime at time and a half. Once I got my paycheck and learned that the extra half time was eaten up in deductions and that at the end of the year by being in a higher tax bracket as a result of that extra effort I made about the same as I did by not working the overtime I quit working overtime.

    Parent

    Excuse me (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:53:17 PM EST
    while I shed a crocodile tear for everyone that I know who has to shoulder the burden of paying those additional taxes.

    That took no time at all because I don't actually know anyone who does and I know a fair number of career professionals.  I know, it's my fault for not aspiring to be one of the beautiful people whose vacation decisions are "where to take them?" and not "can we afford one?" or "can I get time off from work?".

    Parent

    Well that really (1.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:11:14 PM EST
    addressed some of the things I brought up.

    Not.

    Parent

    My parents (5.00 / 4) (#81)
    by CST on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:58:10 PM EST
    So no one on the "lower rungs" has earned the right to make you pay more????  Well guess what, those "lower rung" people have EVERY right to elect people who will make you pay more.  It's called Democracy - and there are a whole lot more of them than you.  See, people in the "upper rungs" get to decide what us "lower rung" people make in salaries.  And we get our time to judge during elections.  If we left it all up to the "upper rung" people we would never have unions, or labor laws, or fair pay.  And if those "upper rung" people had shared more with the little guy, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation where we now have to raise your taxes.

    CEO pay used to be 20x higher than the cheapest employee, now it's more like 200x higher - and I doubt CEOs are 10x more effective.  So spare me your sob story sbout how much they've "earned" off the backs of the little guy.

    And before you tell me to walk in your shoes, my parents are in your shoes, not super-wealthy, just rich enough to have their taxes raised.  And they will pay it happily because they have a CONSCIENCE.  It's not like they have money to burn either, with a mortgage and their retirement fund down the drain.

    Parent

    if salaries were higher paid by those (none / 0) (#88)
    by of1000Kings on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 02:59:05 PM EST
    in the upper echelon of society then maybe those people wouldn't need to be taxed so much...

    hmmm.....

    Parent

    Tangentially - (none / 0) (#31)
    by snstara on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:20:28 AM EST
    I saw a chart in the NYTimes yesterday that graphed unemployment filing in NY State. While unemployment claims were up for most every job description, a few areas were quite low.  

    The lowest? "Managers."

    Though my question would be, how long can that last when they're laying off the workers that managers manage?

    Parent

    The managers become the workers. (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Teresa on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:34:31 AM EST
    At the retail corp I worked at for years, they did it all the time. The would lay off the hourly workers and the poor managers and asst managers on salary would work 70-80 hours a week.

    Parent
    You have it backwards (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by cal1942 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:02:38 AM EST
    higher rates on high incomes are not regressive, they're progressive or graduated.

    Parent
    Graduated yes (2.00 / 0) (#59)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:32:02 PM EST
    progressive no. Higher taxes are regressive in that they discourage additional effort because your net income for the extra effort does not make time versus income sense.

    Parent
    I had a good yuk (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Steve M on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 02:40:24 PM EST
    just the other day with one of my fellow partners, a staunch conservative who supports Obama, at the thought that we would ever refrain from hiring an employee or opening a new branch office because the top tax bracket goes up by a couple of percent.  Just ridiculous.  "Oh no, better leave those profits on the table, that 3% in extra taxes has sapped my will to succeed!"

    Of course, sometimes I forget that you're the only one around here who knows anything about small businesses.  It's kinda funny, after you went on a childish rant about how I just like to argue with people on blogs, to watch you bicker incessantly with everyone else here.

    Parent

    Of course anyone (1.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 08:19:56 PM EST
    can make up stories on a blog just like you apparently have. Better to debate with personal and questionable anecdotes than argue with facts, heh?

    Read JFK's quote I provided in this thread. Provide some credible third party evidence that higher tax rates spurn growth. You can't.

    BTW as for bickering, I posted an opinion based on facts. It was others taking issue with me not vis versa. I guess you can't read either in addition to other things. Thanks for the yuk.

    Parent

    A 1 rating (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Steve M on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 09:06:34 PM EST
    for calling me a liar.  Don't do it again.

    Parent
    Apparently (none / 0) (#103)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:34:25 PM EST
    you have no idea what "apparently" means. Yuk.

    Apparently you have no idea what "questionable" means either. Yuk.

    Apparently you need a dictionary.

    Apparently you have a problem deciphering the English language in addition to a problem reading, as I last pointed out. Yuk.

    Apparently you think I give a frig about a one rating which is most often used by people who have nothing to say. Yuk yuk. I don't. More a reflection on you, not me.

    Apparently you have no facts to rebut my posts - just "questionable anecdotes" that address nothing. Yuk yuk.

    Apparently what JFK said goes in one ear and out the other. Yuk.

    Quite apparently I don't take much of what you say seriously as you are on here 24/7 and are more into word games than substance. Just an educated observation. Yeah I know, anyone can toss out a few business things on a blog and pretend anything. Just not you. Yuk.

    Apparently you think you can question others but others can't question you. Yuk yuk yuk.

    Apparently you have somewhat of a sharp mind but I think you have it focused in the wrong place. You talk the talk but it is questionable IMO that you walk the walk. Old Chinese Proverb: 'He who spends 24/7 on a blog with 'Numerous' posts per day reveals a lot about themselves'.

    Blogs - The Great American Fantasy.

    Yukity yuk.

    Parent

    Ha, ha! (5.00 / 6) (#27)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:14:02 AM EST
    This is a very funny post.  Good luck pushing the Republican idea that graduated income tax is "regressive."

    Listen, bub, we had absolutely no problem with economic ambition when the marginal tax rate was 90 percent in this country.

    You're spouting utter discredited nonsense.  And I suspect you know it very well.

    The GOP is the part of "I've got mine, Jack."  Feh.


    Parent

    Oh really? (none / 0) (#72)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:04:59 PM EST
    Our economy has not grown since the 90% bracket was done a way with? Where is your proof of that? Doing away with the ridiculous tax bracket help grow the economy and made it make more sense for people to start businesses that actually emply people.

    I'll just say this. If you made $300K a year your whole attitude would change because then you would be talking about your money and not someone else's. It's easy to tax someone you don't know. It is another thing to have it effect you and you family. Right bub?

    BTW, JFK, a Democrat, is the one who did away with the 90% tax bracket because he understood macro economics, money, and business. As a result the economy grew, but even more so tax revenues grew. In spite of what you say history shows that lower tax rates actually increase tax revenues.

    Yes there may be times in the short term when higher tax rates are a necessity, as a bridge until the economy stabilizes, but long term higher rates are harmful to tax revenues, investment in manufacturing, and job creation. Higher tax brackets don't promote investment - they promte a flight of capital to invest it in "tax-exempt securities or to find other lawful methods of avoiding the realization of taxable income".

    According to President John F. Kennedy:

    Our true choice is not between tax reduction, on the one hand, and the avoidance of large Federal deficits on the other. It is increasingly clear that no matter what party is in power, so long as our national security needs keep rising, an economy hampered by restrictive tax rates will never produce enough revenues to balance our budget just as it will never produce enough jobs or enough profits... In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now.

    Spoken like a smart Democrat. A knowledgeable Democrat. Not like someone just pulling numbers out of the air.

    Parent

    You definitley are spouting (none / 0) (#84)
    by hairspray on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 02:28:21 PM EST
    economics 101.  However you say that lower taxes spur investment in creating manufacturing and job creation and other kinds of growth.  The only kind of manufacturing growth I have seen under the GOP is
    military spending.  Our manufacturing sector has gone, and the only thing I see is the growth in the financial sector. We have a horrendous balance of payment under econ 101 and an economy based on borrowing.  No, fella, this experiment with Laissez-faire capitalism is a bust.
    It was only in 1993 when Bill Clinton finally raised taxes that our economy began to change.  Unfortunately we got GWB who followed your principles.  I guess it was the MBA.

    Parent
    Why do you ignore (none / 0) (#97)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 07:56:21 PM EST
    JFK? Because he doesn't make your point?

    Look I'm not talking about the GOP. I never mentioned them so quit putting words ion my mouth. There are plenty of good Democrats in government and the private sector that know high tax rates are counter productive in the long run.

    As for Clinton show me one thing he did that increased jobs and growth. That he was lucky to be president during the Internet bubble which created a lot of opportunities for many other industries was his good fortune but he did not create it.

    You simply have no case to make that higher tax rates spur growth that you can back up with facts. In fact if you do your homework you will see that history shows that our highest rates of growth have been when tax rates are lowered. The only thing that Clinton's tax increase helped do is get us out of a deficit. That was a good thing but it should not have been put solely on the backs of people who have done what it takes to do better. That is not fair. It is not my fault that people would rather sit around and watch TV and football on weekends while I was busting my butt. if you had done the same you would be agreeing with me.

    As for GWB, his lowering taxes, with the help of the Democrats, was not the reason for the new deficit, it was his spending. Had he not over spent like many Democrats and true Conservatives wish he hadn't there would be no deficit. It seems your solution is tax tax tax and spend spend spend because all you are calling for is higher taxes on a few as long as it isn't you. But you don't mention spending. It is your economics 101 which is backward.

    As for Laissez-faire capitalism - I believe in regulation and if we would have had it we wouldn't be in as much of a mess today. Unfortunately the Democrats in congress didn't do much more than the GOP did in trying to regulate. Don't blame this all on the GOP. It was our Democrats who helped keep us in this mess also and we are about to elect another one.

    When you have some FACTS that show higher taxes spur growth, investment and jobs get back to me. In the meantime read the words of JFK again. He knew what he was talking about.

    Parent

    You are a linear thinker, not a system (none / 0) (#108)
    by hairspray on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 12:00:05 AM EST
    thinker. The Bush/Reagan years left Clinton with a 290 billion deficit caused by lowered taxes, high military spending and deregulation shifting money away from manufacturing into "financial services." The economy was sluggish and unemployment was high. From a google search:
    Thanks to the 1993 economic plan, President Clinton and Vice President Gore kept their promise to cut the deficit in half in four years and produced three back-to-back surpluses for the first time in over 50 years. Fiscal discipline has resulted in real benefits for American families by keeping interest rates low and productivity high, and by creating the conditions for the strongest economy in our nation's history.  The 1993 economic plan contained $500 billion of total projected deficit reduction over five years, including $255 billion in spending cuts. Even before the Balanced Budget Agreement of 1997 took effect, the deficit had been cut to $22 billion in FY 1997, a 92 percent drop.
    The passage of the deficit reducing legislation almost immediately led to a drop in interest rates, which spurred investment and led to an increase in the rate of job creation, wage growth and productivity.
    So there it is, raise taxes on the wealthy, pay down the debt, etc. System wide strategies led to expansion in small business growth leading to much of the job creation. No comprendo?

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#112)
    by Pepe on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 10:20:20 AM EST
    I'm a linear thinker? How about you? You are so keen to raise taxes you post something that doesn't even say anything about taxes and then in your last comment says it does. It doesn't. It talks about:

    "Fiscal discipline"
    "keeping interest rates low"
    "$255 billion in spending cuts"
    "which spurred investment and led to an increase in the rate of job creation".

    Fiscal discipline & Spending cuts...Both things I mentioned.

    Nowhere does your passage even mention the tax increases or that they were effective or how much revenue they raised. In fact it put the success of deficit reduction on the fact that we aimed for deficit reduction which lowered interest rates and spurned growth - which included the Internet Bubble which increased tax revenues greatly, far more than an increase in personal taxes would be my bet. So you see the bottomline as it always is, is that a booming economy is what gives us revenues. There is no way raising taxes on business owners or the personal income of management in corporations helps the economy boom. No way. How does taxing a doctor more boom the economy? How does taxing a business owner more boom the economy? It doesn't and you can't explain how it does because it doesn't because it can't. It we raised taxes on you would it boom the economy? No. then why would raising taxes on a doctor or business owner boom the economy. You simply have no idea what you are talking about. and if you think of what I said you would have to agree.

    That is what scares me about America. In this case you post something that you say makes a case for higher taxes and it doesn't even mention the word taxes. It mentions fiscal discipline and spending cuts and lower interest rates as leading to a booming economy. Who is the linear thinker?

    Parent

    You must have missed the point about (none / 0) (#113)
    by hairspray on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 11:03:31 AM EST
    Clinton's raising taxes on the corporations and the wealthy.  That was a big part of the story.  See, the GOP lowers taxes on the "trickle down" theory, and a Democratic president  has to repair it because like in 1987 and again 20 years later we find evidence that it simply doesn't work.  We keep our economy in balance by building infrastructure with taxes and eliminating loopholes for the corporations to sneak their money offshore. Then we spend that money making the society the envy of thw whole world.  Oh this is tiresome, just buzz off!

    Parent
    What Point? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Pepe on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 09:24:33 PM EST
    There was no point about raising taxes. Read the quotation you provided and show me where it even mentions taxes. It does not. You provided no link just a quotation that you say proves your point about taxes but again it says zero about taxes. What's wrong with you? You try to make a point over and over again pointing to proof in a quote that you provided that says not one word about proving your point.

    Instead what you provided gives other reasons for the deficit makeup. And you say it mentions taxes? WTF!

    Read your own quote for the reasons the article quotation gives for the deficit makeup. Read it, you provided it, so don't ignore what it says. It backs my point not yours.

    BTW did you read the JFK quote in this thread that I provided where he, President John F. Kennedy,  disagrees with you that higher tax rates bringing in more revenue. Did you read that? You guys just won't accept facts and instead cling to raising taxes on others, but not raising them on yourself.

    And no I never mentioned the GOP or trickle down so don't put words in my mouth, as I don't support either. And what I have to say has zero to do with either. What I have to say has to do with the reasons your quotation gives for deficit reduction and it isn't higher taxes.

    Yeah buzz off you say. That's what all you uninformed kids say when you post things that contradict the point you  are trying to make. Dude if you can't provide a quotation that backs your point don't provide a quote that says other than what you are trying to prove! Does that make sense to you. It's a sad day when the person you are debating has to give you pointers on how to make your case don't you think?

    Parent

    You must have missed the point about (none / 0) (#114)
    by hairspray on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 11:04:19 AM EST
    Clinton's raising taxes on the corporations and the wealthy.  That was a big part of the story.  See, the GOP lowers taxes on the "trickle down" theory, and a Democratic president  has to repair it because like in 1987 and again 20 years later we find evidence that it simply doesn't work.  We keep our economy in balance by building infrastructure with taxes and eliminating loopholes for the corporations to sneak their money offshore. Then we spend that money making the society the envy of the whole world.  Oh this is tiresome, just buzz off!

    Parent
    again, just paying higher salaries (none / 0) (#90)
    by of1000Kings on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 03:08:01 PM EST
    and maybe there isn't a problem...

    that's the way I see it...

    I know plenty of EXTREMELY HARD working persons who now have to take a job at home depot or wherever because of the job market....and what does home depot pay it's employees?  8 friggen dollars an hour...wow...just try to live on that for a while...it ain't possible...

    but hey, as long as it's failing CEO's make 20M a year in bonuses everything is fine....

    but then again, if the companies pay higher salaries then they just charge higher prices, for it would be a sin to not be able to buy a 200ft yacht....

    Parent

    I agree with you on wages (none / 0) (#98)
    by Pepe on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 08:10:44 PM EST
    The bigger problem though is shipping jobs offshore where Americans have to try to compete with people making $3 a day. That is a bigger problem than grotesque CEO salaries and golden parachutes, not that they are not way overpaid. But what does 20M have to do with a guy making 300K who wants to live a decent life, send his kids to good schools, save for his retirement and health care? The truth is today to do those things you have to make a lot of money and taxing those people at a higher rate does not help them accomplish their goals that they have sacrificed for nor does it help those people create jobs. So who wins there? Nobody. The money ends up in the black whole known as government and you are not going to see any of it. If you think Obama is going to take a way corporate giveaways and give it to you the you are dreaming. His biggest contributors are corporations yet he tell you different. Hopefully you don't buy his lies.

    Parent
    I don't expect Obama to do this (none / 0) (#107)
    by of1000Kings on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:15:12 PM EST
    I expect business owners, small, medium and large to be more humane (or as we like to say in America, more christian) and pay better salaries rather than pocketing all the profits for themselves while their workers do JUST AS MUCH 'hard work' as they do, if not more of the actual work (work being force exerted, not just swindling, 'negotiating', and money-changing)....

    not everyone in this country has a chance to be in that 200K+ bracket...otherwise we wouldn't have people to take out the trash, to serve food, to clean up after us, to park our 80K+ cars while we have a 200$ meal or to sweep the floors in the store that sells 600$ shoes that our 20 y/o children can buy...

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:13:08 PM EST
    90% tax rates are the foundation of flourishing economies. Just think what 95% would do. Or 100!

    Parent
    Hard to even comprehend... (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:38:09 PM EST
    a 90% tax rate...that's some Sherriff of Nautingham sh*t right there, enough to drive an honest man to steal.

    Parent
    Try reading (none / 0) (#89)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 03:06:14 PM EST
    It was a 90 percent marginal tax rate.


    Parent
    OK, for you:
    Yes, 90% marginal tax rates are the foundation of flourishing economies. Just think what 95% would do. Or 100!


    Parent
    Response was not to you (none / 0) (#93)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 03:29:04 PM EST
    it was the following comment, but the threading on this site sometimes comes out wrong.

    Parent
    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#94)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 03:31:05 PM EST
    kdog, he was dissing you, not me.

    Parent
    I would bet that the Dems have lost (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by Cream City on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:00:26 PM EST
    the future plumbers of America, like, fer sher.

    Luckily, the name Joseph lost popularity a while ago. . . .

    Parent

    Purging the kids from McCain rallies (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Demi Moaned on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:20:13 AM EST
    Probably you've seen this item from the Iowa State Daily where young people were purged from a McCain rally in Cedar Falls, Iowa:
    "I saw a couple that had been escorted out and they were confused as well, and the girl was crying, so I said `Why are you crying? and she said `I already voted for McCain, I'm a Republican, and they said we had to leave because we didn't look right,'" Elborno said. "They were handpicking these people and they had nothing to go off of, besides the way the people looked."

    Elborno said while she has protested at events before, no plans were discussed beforehand for a protest and she shouldn't have been taken out because she was not causing a disturbance.

    "If I had been disruptive, then I would have deserved to be taken out," Elborno said. "But at the time I was asked to leave, I wasn't doing anything."

    Elborno said she's stunned at how the situation was handled, especially McCain's staffers' refusal to discuss the matter.

    "I've never seen anything like this," she said.


    That certainly sends a message.

    Wonder what she was doing (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by oculus on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:23:29 AM EST
    earlier:

    "But at the time I was asked to leave, I wasn't doing anything."


    Parent
    More generally (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Demi Moaned on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:30:35 AM EST
    David Zarifis, director of public safety for the University of Northern Iowa, said McCain staffers requested UNI police assist in escorting out "about four or five" people from the rally prior to McCain's speech.

    Zarifis said while the people who were taken out weren't protesting or causing problems, McCain's staff were worried they would during the speech.

    "Apparently, they had been identified by those staffers as potential protesters within the event," Zarifis said.



    Parent
    So I guess they didn't look like (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:34:34 AM EST
    "one of them".  Perfect.

    Parent
    Those UNI kids are... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:26:05 PM EST
    ...such radicals.  She was probably bowing to Mecca/Chicago or reading Marx right before they kicked her out.  

    Parent
    No diff than Bush's hand picked crowds. (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:52:47 AM EST
    Republicans can be quite consistent.

    Parent
    After one primary or caucus, (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by oculus on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:30:21 AM EST
    African Americans were reportedly removed from the stage before Obama appeared to speak.  Something about more diversity needed.

    Parent
    It happened in SC (none / 0) (#116)
    by DeborahNC on Sun Nov 02, 2008 at 02:42:22 PM EST
    Yeah... (none / 0) (#5)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:24:52 AM EST
    I saw this story earlier and I still cant quite understand what the mccain campaign was thinking.  And if someone was wondering if it was a race thing, from the pictures I saw the woman quoted looked very white to me, so I just dont get it.

    Parent
    Chances are that no Dem would lose (none / 0) (#6)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:29:27 AM EST
    my vote, but I do prefer to cast it on election day when I can.

    Parent
    Young voters. (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:33:18 AM EST
    I will believe in them when they show up to the polls and actually are voters as a result.

    At the moment, they are opinion makers.  Opinion makers are different from voters.

    It takes more than one vote for Prez (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:55:56 AM EST
    It takes down ticket votes and local votes and state votes.  

    Too bad we can't measure things the correlation between P/VP votes and California's Prop 8.  Think it will all be McCain voters supporting Prop 8?  I doubt it.

    Parent

    It won't be the youth (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by CST on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:02:04 AM EST
    supporting prop 8.  If you can actually get them to vote on it, they will do the right thing.  The most conservative young people I know, former Bush supporters, really don't care like the culture wars and being gay is not that big a deal.

    The question isn't how they would vote on it, just whether they bother to look at down ticket items.

    Parent

    Too true. (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:15:13 AM EST
    It's easy to get excited about choosing a president.

    But who ARE all these other candidates?  What are these proposals?  Bond issues?  So confusing!

    It's easy to feel informed about something that's been covered practically daily for months and months.  But the other races don't usually get that amount of attention and air time.

    Parent

    I still have to sit down and read (none / 0) (#61)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:42:25 PM EST
    my voter's guide.  Every election I do, but I still always seem to come across one question that I don't understand when I'm in the voting booth.  I always feel like it is impossible to "ace" the "test" for one reason or another.

    Parent
    Here's my ballot! (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:45:58 PM EST
    [link]

    Courtesy of the League of Women Voters.
    Gotta love the internet! ;-)

    Parent

    I have mine in a voter's guide (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    as well as an explanation of everything on the ballot - but normally there is something I don't get because I just haven't been following the issue or the person in the news.

    Parent
    Unfortunately, Obama's support (5.00 / 7) (#11)
    by ChrisO on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:38:13 AM EST
    among young people is still based significantly on a cult of personality. I know Obama supporters go ballistic when people say this, but I was reading the thread on TPM during Obama's infomercial, and it was truly unbelievable. The number of people who said they were in tears as soon as the thing started was crazy. Dozens and dozens of comments, many of the "who are we to deserve this god who walks among us?" variety.

    And yes, I realize that most Obama supporters are not like this. But it does seem that a preponderance of the hero worshippers are young.

    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:48:00 AM EST
    I think some of those stories were pretty touching, regardless of your political persuasion, like the elderly gentleman forced to go back to work because of his wifes ailments... or maybe Im just too soft hearted.

    Parent
    I don't need stranger's stories. (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:11:11 AM EST
    My dad is retired.  My mother is working.  Still working.  My mom has worked her entire life, but raising nine kids does not qualify her for a pension.

    After a long marriage ended, my dad can afford to be retired, but my mother can't.  I suppose she could move in with one of her kids, but that job provides her health insurance...  And if she falls ill and can't work, she has no spouse to support her.

    I know a lot of people who are just this side of making it.  Maybe their luck will hold out, maybe it won't.

    Parent

    Feh. (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:58:00 AM EST
    A few nutso commentators at TPM do not the American youth electorate make.

    And you have to be pretty hard-hearted not to be touched by that commercial, both Obama's personal experiences and those of the people profiled.  The difference between that commercial and McCain's material is the difference between fundamental decency and politics-as-usual.

    In politics, decency is everything.  Once you can fake that, you've got it made.

    I wrote a diary at dKos last night about Obama taking this afternoon off (without press fanfare) to spend Halloween with his daughters.  That genuinely touched me (as well as about a thousand readers -- it's the second time I've had a diary recommended).

    Parent

    It's not a few nutso commentators (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by ChrisO on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:50:55 PM EST
    I find it kind of ironic how many people who comment regualrly on political web sites dismiss the commenters on other web sites as some kind of marginalized minorty. In case you haven't noticed, the web is where a great deal of the political discourse happens these days, and TPM is one of the most widely read sites, as well as winning a Peabody. Most of the commenters are people who have been commenting there regularly during most of this campaign. Why are they "nutsos" and the people here aren't? They are also among that group of white people who have gone from never thinking about racism to being experts on the "codes" and "dog whistles" of Obama's opponents.

    As for the stories, yes, they were touching. I have no problem with people liking the infomercial, although it left me a little cold, aside from the stories. But as you'll see in my post, these are people who said they were crying as soon as Obama started talking. I torture myself by reading those comments occasionally, and they are representative of a lot of Obama supporters who celebrate Obama's politics ogf hope by vilifying and insulting his oppponents.

    Like I said, they don't represent the majority of his supporters. And they don't represent Obama, although I'm still annoyed that Hillary was called on by Gergen and others to denounce any of her supporters who are basing their votes on racism, while Obama never once said to his supporters, "The Clintons aren't racists. Knock it off."

    I'm all for Obama winning the election. I'm going to vote for him. But I refuse to pretend that none of the reprehensible actions of Obama's supporters didn't happen.  I'm not going to harp on it forever, but when I see some of the allegations of racism that are thrown around, it reminds me very much of the treatment Hillary received. There are certainly racial elements to McCain's campaign, but when I see people saying things like "you could tell during the debate that McCain couldn't believe he had to be on the stage with a black guy," or the decoding of every word, like "presumptuous," as some kind of racist inmsult, and then see these same people talk about how Obama will be a post-racial Presisdent who will unite the nation, I'm going to speak up.

    Parent

    How did the Sarah Palin costume (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:55:06 AM EST
    turn out (or was that Steve M.'s daughter; can't remember)?  

    Parent
    Nono (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Steve M on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:14:46 PM EST
    My daughter is going as a kitty cat.  "Woof woof."  Hey, she's only 2.

    Parent
    It's my daughter. (none / 0) (#43)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:03:03 PM EST
    It's pretty good.  I may post a picture at dKos, I haven't decided yet.

    Parent
    I hope that the orange hordes (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Cream City on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:12:05 PM EST
    behave themselves in their comments there, so that it's safe for your daughter to see them. :-)

    Parent
    Plus. . . (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:15:23 PM EST
    I'd have to explain to them that when Daddy says he's working. . .

    Parent
    I would NEVER. . . (none / 0) (#51)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:14:25 PM EST
    show the comments section at dKos to my daughters.  They're far too young for the language there, and they're young enough that obvious signs of mental derangement (crazy people on the subway, for instance) really scare them.  Frankly, it's been a little hard showing them the SNL sketches of Sarah Palin (which they love).

    Parent
    I only go there for SNLC. (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:17:12 PM EST
    Please cross-tab to TL.  Thanks.

    Parent
    Just think of what the DKOS people (none / 0) (#109)
    by hairspray on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 12:05:29 AM EST
    would say if you wrote about Sarah Palin talking time off to be with her children.

    Parent
    My Mom was a Clinton supporter and (none / 0) (#64)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:50:11 PM EST
    was postively over the moon about the Obama 30-minute commercial.  I was a bit surprised because she's not all that easily moved - she's spent her life amidst the politics of DC - so I was surprised at the extent to which that touched her.  I, on the other hand, thought it was well done, but much more focused on how the general public responded to it.

    Anyhow, my Mom is an example of someone who is definitely not in the cult who was very impressed by that segment.  I'd say that she's in the tank for people - she cares about people - and I think that is a key reason that the video had such a big impact on her.

    Parent

    It will only be significant over time (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by snstara on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:02:10 AM EST
    if Obama's presidency - as opposed to his candidacy - is successful. (sorry if I seem to be re-stating LarryInNYC's point, but it's a good one.)

    And how do you measure that success when different people see different things in, and hold different beliefs about, the candidate? Progressives believe Obama is progressive, while centrists believe Obama is a centrist, and John McCain says he believes Obama is a socialist.  That's a wide spectrum of belief, and only one of those positions might be adequately backed up by the facts. (No, McCain, no. Just, no.) Someone (well, several someones) is bound to be disappointed by the real governing style of a President Obama, who will make decisions that most likely fall in line with his current Senate voting record.  

    So the real impact Obama may have on whether the young voters he's rallied behind him continue to vote as Democrats is in how he communicates his decisions to that constituency.  They're going to want to feel as if they are included, and he's going to have to deliver on that promise of inclusion.  If he doesn't, and they become disillusioned by the process as a result, then that's not to say that they won't be Democrats.  But it could have an impact on the likelihood of their future participation in the process - and their enthusiasm for future candidates.

    People see Obama as a transformational, transcendant candidate.  That's a heavy load for one person to carry, but it's the load he stacked on his own shoulders.  My exact thoughts, looking at that Florida crowd after the half-hour campaign spot, were: 'It's going to be a mighty far fall if you can't deliver for these people.' They're going to forget all about the mess George Bush left far sooner than you think.  


    So much depends (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by joanneleon on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:14:31 AM EST
    on what happens in the next 4-8 years.  Will the Democrats really get out there and support the middle class?  Will there be an "Apollo Program" for alternative energy and will it result in jobs here or will it be outsourced?  

    Most of the young voters in colleges now haven't seen really hard times in their lives.  Many haven't been out there knowing what it's like to make a living and juggle all the costs and responsibilities.  Then comes the crazily busy times of having children with two working parents.  There isn't a lot of time for involvement in politics, or anything, for that matter.  Working in Corporate America has an effect on people's political views too, with the conflict of what's good for the common man vs. what's good for the company you depend on to make a living.  This is especially important during times when jobs are scarce.

    Then there is the question of potential disillusionment.  There is academic research that indicates that a young person's first choice of party and presidential candidate results in loyalty to that party for decades.  But I wonder about that research, given what I've seen from the late 60's through the 90's.

    The Obama movement will need to continue bringing in the youth perennially to retain the enthusiasm.

    I think what we've got here is a sea change, but I don't necessarily think it's a guarantee, because I believe the single biggest influence in this election was a desire to "throw the bums out" and I'm not sure we've done that much to strengthen the Democratic party brand in any lasting way.  That will depend on what happens in the coming years.  

    One last thing: I think the Republican party is in total shock, and it's likely that they will have more motivation and ability to reform than the Democratic party will.  It remains to be seen whether the "reasonable Republicans" will straighten things out.  If they do, there's a potential for them to make a comeback fairly soon, given the mess we were left with in 2008.

    he has big tasks (none / 0) (#78)
    by bigbay on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:25:54 PM EST
    Iran being the biggest.

    A nuclear armed Iran is unacceptable to the American public and the US military.

    The economy is so bad now, it can't help but go up.

    Parent

    Nuclear Israel GOOD! (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Fabian on Sat Nov 01, 2008 at 04:23:30 AM EST
    Nuclear Iran BAD!

    Nuclear America HYPOCRITE!

    I'm not fond of nuclear weapons at all, so the Nuclear Iran bogey man doesn't resonate with me.  I feel for Israel, but they are responsible for their own fate.  They can make peace or war.  I know which choice I support.

    Parent

    a nuclear armed America is unacceptable (none / 0) (#92)
    by of1000Kings on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 03:27:30 PM EST
    to the Iranian public...

    Parent
    Having a veto proof majority is more important (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Saul on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:19:58 AM EST
    to me than winning the presidency.  There is credible talk on the air waves that a possibility of getting the veto proof majority could occur  this year.  The veto proof majority is where the power is.  So even if Obama lost but we won a veto proof majority you could still ram rod the democratic legislation through with out having to worry of the actual presidential veto which would definitely occur.  

    I wrote yesterday that registering to vote and actual voting are two different things.  In Texas I did not see  many young voters in the early voting lines. I live in Texas, but I heard on the radio that the  lack of young voters actually doing early voting was nation wide.      Maybe they will come out on Tue.  As you write it could have been a toss up between getting a bunch of young voters this year but only to lose a bunch of older voters to the other side.

    a fair % (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by cpinva on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:20:29 AM EST
    of obama's support is based on a "cult of personality", from what i've seen, especially among the younger voters. this causes me to question their long-term aspirations.

    assuming sen. obama wins tuesday, and ends up serving two terms, that's pretty much it for him, on the national stage. sure, he could run for the senate again, but that's not the president. will they continue to be as enthralled with politics, as they are now?

    I think about my neighbor Katie. I've (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Teresa on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:30:48 AM EST
    known her since she was 8 and she is now 19. We have affectionately listened to her right wing talking points for years. Her church taught her well. Bush is good..all Democrats are evil.

    In the summer of 2007, she told me she was moving to Canada if Hillary Clinton wins the election.

    Imagine my surprise when I saw an Obama bumper sticker on her car a few months ago. She is caught up in the movement and doesn't even think of him in terms of policy positions.

    When they see him going about the boring duties of the Presidency and not having rallies and speeches, I don't know how much they'll care anymore. Maybe four years from now they'll get caught up again. But I can promise you this girl will vote straight Republican on the rest of the ticket.

    Enough people believed the most insidious lie (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by andgarden on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:03:58 PM EST
    Nader told: that there was no difference between Gore and Bush.

    I never believed.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:10:43 PM EST
    "no difference", I always believed and still believe "not enough of a difference" or "only superficial differences on issues of lesser importance".

    Parent
    That's a distinction without a difference (none / 0) (#53)
    by andgarden on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:15:13 PM EST
    I think many of the people who lost family members in Iraq would disagree with you. Not to mention anyone who cares about the Supreme Court

    Parent
    We've been here, done this.... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:35:15 PM EST
    I'm not sold there would not have been a pile of corpses in Iraq under Gore.  Clinton put military personnel in harms way overseas, without a 9/11.  Dropped bombs on Iraq too.

    No way of knowing...agree to disagree.

    Parent

    You can keep telling yourself that (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:56:26 PM EST
    there is no way to know if we would have gone into Iraq, but the fact is that Bush and his administration fabricated the "evidence" that led us into that invasion and that war.  

    The bottom line is that Al Gore would never have fabricated evidence to justify invading Iraq.  He is one of the few bona fide boy scouts that ever graced the halls of Washington.

    If this were just a question of whether or not we should have attacked Iraq and the did have a nuclear weapon pointed at us as they claimed, then you could argue that there was no way of knowing.  But we KNOW for a fact that those WMDs were a BIG LIE and the plans to tell the BIG LIE were designed, executed and carried out by Bush and his cabal.

    Parent

    Yes... (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:20:54 PM EST
    the weapons lie was merely a component of a much larger lie, a lie that was repeated ad nauseum...by Democrats as well as Republicans.  The big lie being Saddam was a threat to anybody except his own people.

    I could assemble a list of quotes from nearly every big-shot Dem saying what a grave and hoorible threat Saddam Hussein was.  Then there is the authorization the Dems gave Bush.

    So which of us is lying to ourselves again?

    Parent

    Who repeated it? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:11:08 PM EST
    How did Nader get all that attention?  There was no blogosphere.

    There will always be a Nader or a Perot or whoever.  Who decides how much time and attention they get?  Was it us?  Did we tell the media to keep on telling us about Nader?  I'm sure Nader said a lot more than that - so why is that narrative the only one that stuck?

    Parent

    The media is high on the blame list (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by andgarden on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:14:11 PM EST
    but Nader absolutely gets much if not most of the blame.

    Parent
    I'm glad Nader isn't a sheeple. (none / 0) (#62)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:42:47 PM EST
    Too many sheeple around for my taste.  Because he sticks out, he'll get scapegoated for things that are his fault and for things that aren't his fault.

    That's the way the game is played.  It's human nature, aka tribalism, at work.  

    Parent

    I'd love for one of (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:59:15 PM EST
    you sometime to get around to telling us what SPECIFICALLY Nader is so wrong about, other than that he should just shut up.

    My suspicion is, Im sorry to say, that most of the He-made-Gore-lose whiners would vote for Bush, if the choice were between him and Nader, without being able to convincingly articulate why other than to pass on the recieved wisdom that Nader's craaaazy.

    Parent

    Yes, and it was a lie, not an honest (none / 0) (#105)
    by sallywally on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:41:40 PM EST
    analysis. No way he didn't know better.

    I have never understood the people who insisted he was right - just like I don't get the far right's complete denial of facts.

    Parent

    Youth (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by essaywhuman on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 06:23:03 PM EST
    Hi everyone, long time reader first time caller here. I decided to register because I enjoy the perspective of this blog in particular over other lefty blogs which tend to be a lot more unthinking and reflexively Democrat or liberal (you all know who I mean).

    I feel that I have to speak up here though because, judging from the comments, there don't appear to be a whole lot of young people posting, though you can correct me if I'm wrong. I am a 20 y/o latino jew male (though you would call me white if you saw me), certainly reflective of the rising multicultural youth demographics, in and of itself playing such a large role in the so called cult of personality many are deriding here. I won't deny that many of the people I know my age are smitten with Obama. My opinion is that it has a lot more to do with the cultural, generational shift that Obama represents then anything else. Fundamentally, his story and posture represent many things that are important to people of my generation, not to mention how much of an effort he has made to reach out to us. There is a level of understanding that many people attribute to him that is rare. And there is certainly a lot of peer pressure going on, especially among my lesser informed friends who nevertheless consider Obama a savior.

    But don't misunderstand. We have grown up with George Bush as a president. Sure, we are idealistic, I know I am. But we know quite clearly what the deal is, that Obama is a politician like any other. We are the generation of Jon Stewart and Youtube. If Obama doesn't deliver, sure, that would be sad, but there seems to be this idea that among the youth that would hit particularly hard, as if we are so much more susceptible to the easy lies of a slick politician. I disagree. Its not about that. Its about what the Democratic party represents right now symbolically, in terms of our ideas on race and sexual orientation, as well as justice and equality, our values. I think we are looking at this idea of a permanent generation of Democratic voters the wrong way. We will move the country leftward I believe, but that will just create a new center. When the Republican party retools its message and aligns itself more closely with what we value, they will certainly be competitive.

    As a liberal progressive it pains me to say that, but I'm just trying to be realistic, not idealistic. Obama really touched a chord when he chided McCain as out of touch. The "just like Bush" line of attack has a lot to do with culture as well. Its really quite clever I think. He has billed himself as postpartisan, a way to get around the battles of the 60's, but his appeal is a culturally updated model.

    Welcome to the party! (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 06:26:47 PM EST
    Yes! Wecome! (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by sallywally on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:34:55 PM EST
    I do so hope you're right that Obama will move the center to the left.

    I'm not sure he has shown an interest in doing that, but I think he has grown as a candidate and we can hope that's where he will go. It's certainly what is needed.

    I see a number of articles about him now implying he will create a new New Deal.

    Speaking of which, Cass Sunstein had a book out about that very thing. I'll have to see if I can find it on my bookshelves. I haven't read it yet, and it might cast some light on what Obama's "new deal" would look like.

    Parent

    It's possible (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by lilburro on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 09:55:07 PM EST
    that for most young people, Obama is just the kind of guy they'd like to have a beer with, and a future Republican candidate could appeal to them.  If the John McCain of 2000 was running, maybe they'd vote for him.  

    Did anyone else hear Jon Stewart tell Kristol on Thursday night that he would have voted for McCain in 2000?  Yuck.

    Well, it seems clear from downticket (none / 0) (#16)
    by tigercourse on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:55:43 AM EST
    polls that Obama's youth voters certainly aren't going to hurt Democratic candidates. In the future? Who knows. I'm sure the Democrats will end up in the Wilderness again someday.  

    I'm hoping the youth.... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:56:52 AM EST
    don't get stuck in the two-party trap...aligning with a party and voting party-line consistently.  

    That is what current and past generations have done for the most part, and we have a thoroughly corrupted two-party duopoly catering to lobbies to show for it.  

    heh (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:58:57 AM EST
    Spoken like a true Naderite.

    Parent
    After listening to Nader coverage (none / 0) (#33)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:24:23 AM EST
    this morning (NPR Columbus OH) and listening to some Democratic official ranting on about how Nader's 2000 run was a horrible, horrible thing, I just wanted to go register as an Independent.

    It's the democratic process at work.  If people can't handle a little competition without bursting into tears or outrage, then what are they doing in politics?  It's not an invitation-only sandbox.  

    (The real problem with any third party is that it ruins both of the major parties' claims that people have "nowhere else to go".  If people think they do indeed have somewhere else to go, then the Democrats and Republicans may actually have to expend some effort and political capital to woo them and keep them.)

    Parent

    Well, I'd probably sound very much (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by andgarden on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:31:41 AM EST
    like that "Democratic official." I despise Ralph Nader with a burning hatred that I have for only a few other people on this planet.

    And as for:

    The real problem with any third party is that it ruins both of the major parties' claims that people have "nowhere else to go".

    No it doesn't. People still don't have anywhere else to go. What third parties do in 99% of elections is objectively indistinguishable from encouraging people to not vote.

    Parent
    You bet Fabian... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:45:29 AM EST
    That damn Nader, he's making the tired crooked Dems look bad when you compare the platforms and the ideas.  It's easy for Dems when you are only compared too even more tired and crooked Republicans, being compared to some other choices is sooo unfair:)

    I'd never sully what is left of my good name by registering as a D or R...besides the fact both parties think I deserve chains and I'd be supporting my own potential misery.

    Parent

    All by hisself! (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:02:02 PM EST
    Nader was so powerful that he could have single handedly stopped all 19 of those hijackers!  And caught Bin Laden!  By going back in time!

    More like the right stooge at the right time.  Kinda like some other white guy on the political stage at that time.  Strange how Nader got all that attention without the power of a major campaign behind him.  

    Parent

    Not strange at all (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by ChrisO on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:20:41 PM EST
    Nadewr was very well known, and admired by a lot of the populace. How much are you hearing about Bob Barr or Cynthia McKinney?

    My problem with Nader is that he's tring to start at the top. Running for President without bothering to build a partry first is just a vanity trip. And you might notice that Nader got more attention for the fact that he was running and his impact on the election than for any of the principles he espoused. He did nothing to advance his agenda.

    And this "we'll never know" stuff is just BS. If Obama gets elected, "we'll never know" if McCain would have been a better President. That doesn't mean I can't have a very strong, informed opinion.

    Parent

    Yes, he could have been/be working (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by sallywally on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 10:45:27 PM EST
    hard to advance his principles - in Congress, for instance, or even on the school board, city council, etc.

    His rhetoric is thin when he doesn't do that.

    Parent

    Young Voters: Now and Future Dems? (none / 0) (#25)
    by desertswine on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:08:45 AM EST
    Well, not quite all of them.

     "The expansion of the electoral franchise led to the growth of the welfare state," the professor says. "People are able to vote money out of your pocket and into their own."

    Don't F-up, BO, (none / 0) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 11:50:28 AM EST
    and their growing enthusiasm is nothing short of remarkable and will influence American politics for generations to come.
    or their growing enthusiasm and influence may well come around to bite "your" flavor of American politics for generations to come...

    What I'm seeing on a college campus (none / 0) (#45)
    by Cream City on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:10:41 PM EST
    is interesting this year, and among my more than 300 students this semester that I see in classes, t-shirts and bebuttoned backpacks and all (and what I see in terms of bumper stickers on thousands of cars I see daily on and around a campus of 30,000 students).  There's so much less political activity than in previous years, now that we're not a swing state.  But we are a state that had the second-highest youth vote turnout in 2004, so it ought to hold true somewhat for those that can remember that far back. :-)  (Teaching history, I'm well aware that the 1990s! now are seen as "ancient history.")

    But it is ramping up a bit in the last week -- and in discussions with students, too.  The Obama-mad students are bright-eyed optimists about politics.  That won't last, once reality hits, as it never does -- but I was one once, too, and I've seen many such over the years, and as ever, some will stay politically motivated.  The College Democrats, though, tend to be much like the party; they don't seem too organized.:-)

    The College Republicans are really active now, though, and they're always more organized -- off-years, too.  And they're feeling quite beleaguered in their age group, so I get the sense that this is the sort of year that forges a fiery attachment to their party for them.

    As ever, it's the Greenies who are the most committed, always, and year-round. . . .

    Interesting... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:23:49 PM EST
    are the Greenies most committed because they are paying the closest attention to what's goin' down in America?  I wonder, I wonder...

    Parent
    I could explain them more to you (none / 0) (#68)
    by Cream City on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 12:59:35 PM EST
    from what I see, but our host is deleting comments today, so I'm not going to put more time into this.  Maybe watch for me in an open thread with another host -- these are interesting young people, with whom I have a lot of conversations. . . .

    Hope you see this, kdog, before it gets deleted, too!

    Parent

    Amazing how things change. (none / 0) (#71)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 01:03:59 PM EST
    Eight years ago, I couldn't imagine GWB pushing alternative energy outside of pushing nuclear power.

    Now?
    Define "mainstream" please.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#86)
    by DancingOpossum on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 02:35:52 PM EST
    Well, I'm a Greenie, for this election at least. And I do find myself in much deeper accord with most of the Green Party's platform so it's a very comfortable vote for me.