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Saturday Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 11:59:47 AM EST
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Gators up 1421-0, thanks [in part] to 2 blocked punts. Penn State will lose to the Buckeyes today. College football's BCS system is a travesty and will be proven beyond redemption this year. As early as next year, college football will add a +1 game after the BCS bowls.

Also, I understand there is a baseball game tonight in Philadelphia.

This is an Open Thread.

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    Saturday Open Thread | 74 comments (74 topical)

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    Incidentally, I'm going to Philly tonight, (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:02:27 PM EST
    but no, I don't have tickets.

    Anyway, go Phils!

    It has been raining all day in Phila, (none / 0) (#9)
    by Peter G on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:31:38 PM EST
    and they're talking about postponing games 3-4-5 by one day each.  

    Parent
    If the wind there is anything like it is here (none / 0) (#35)
    by nycstray on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 02:48:08 PM EST
    might be worth it. We haven't gotten the rain yet, but plenty of wind (and dirt in the eyes!)

    Parent
    It's possible (none / 0) (#43)
    by Makarov on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:37:38 PM EST
    they just delay the start. By midnight, the front might be out of here. That said, I don't know how late they will delay before they just postpone.

    Parent
    I prefer the Nittany Lions beat OSU; (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:23:35 PM EST
    and U of M beat MSU, natch.

    Much as it hurts to say this (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by rdandrea on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:28:40 PM EST
    BTD, however abrasive he might have been expressing the issue, might be correct.

    Penn State has not won in Columbus since joining the Big-10.

    Parent

    They hadn't beat Michigan since (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:34:31 PM EST
    forever either, but - - -.

    Parent
    Penn State (none / 0) (#42)
    by Makarov on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:35:19 PM EST
    has had maybe 1 team this good since they joined the Big 10. The 94-95 "locked out of championship" team, since it pre-dated the Big 10's entry into the BCS.

    I share BTD's concern about the BCS though. If the top 3 remain undefeated through the season, we'll likely never know who the best team really was.

    That said, PSU is going to have a big win over OSU. I predict Alabama will have difficulty with, if not lose outright, to TN.

    TX was up 14-0, but the Cowboys just came within 7, so they're not out of the woods yet either.

    Parent

    I'd be more optimistic if... (none / 0) (#45)
    by rdandrea on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:47:59 PM EST
    ...Penn state hadn't looked so crappy in the first half of the Michigan game.  Both the offensive and defensive lines were manhandled and Michigan moved the ball at will--and this year's Michigan team is nowhere near as good as the nine teams that beat Penn State over the last 12 years.  There's plenty of film in that first half to show the Buckeyes how to beat us, and they have the coaching staff and personnel to do it.

    I'll be rooting like all get-out for the Lions, but I don't have a good feeling going into this game.  This is certainly one of the best Penn State teams of the last 40 years, and they can do it.  I'm just not sure they will.

    Parent

    OK, game over (none / 0) (#56)
    by rdandrea on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:15:02 PM EST
    I'm more confident now.

    Parent
    I'm a Buckeye (none / 0) (#57)
    by sallywally on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:24:00 PM EST
    and naturally we are distraught. The "true freshman" OSU quarterback fumbled very near our own goal, setting up a touchdown for Penn, and then threw an interception just about in the end zone in the last few seconds of the game.

    He was on the bench with his head in his hands while everyone else left.

    Not sure why they didn't use their senior quarterback Boeckman at least for portions of this game. A lot to put on the back of a seriously young kid.

    He's started every time and given that a bunch of seniors with futures in the NFL stayed this year to hope for a championship, I just don't get why everything has to ride on this kid, talented as he obviously is.

    I'm glad you said it's the best Penn team in many years - at least the victory was close.

    Parent

    The Buckeyes played a great game (none / 0) (#58)
    by rdandrea on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:27:43 PM EST
    Great defense.  It was truly a wonderful game to watch, no matter who won.

    Parent
    They did, and it was a great game to watch. (none / 0) (#62)
    by sallywally on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 11:12:00 PM EST
    Defense on both teams was outstanding.

    The young QB came out to talk to the press afterward and said he feels he lost the game for the Bucks.

    But others saying it wasn't all on him, there was the rest of the game and some feel Tressel didn't call the plays as well as he might have.

    But it wasn't a big point spread, which is some consolation!

    All here saying Penn State could go all the way this year.

    Parent

    Thanks for your nice response. n/t (none / 0) (#64)
    by sallywally on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 11:34:00 PM EST


    Parent
    Re: Columbus (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:28:51 PM EST
    I'm listening to the many, many CDs of Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals.  On the second disc, she describes Columbus, in 1860, as a tree-filled place with beautiful homes.

    Parent
    She is right. I lived in one of the (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by sallywally on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 11:21:18 PM EST
    historic districts for 20 years, the oldest part of the city, lots of big old Victorians and lots of giant sycamore trees. My little cottage was built in 1875.

    I moved out to buy a house with my disabled sister, and we're in a 60s era subdivision now, a wonderful area and a great house. Plenty of trees out here too! It took us both a while to get used to the semi-upper-middle-classness of the area, though.

    We were both used to living in the university district.

    Parent

    No way! (none / 0) (#15)
    by Steve M on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:48:55 PM EST
    This is the Spartans' year.

    Parent
    Sadly, I think you are probably (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:16:20 PM EST
    correct.

    Parent
    Although I note MSU did not face (none / 0) (#25)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:24:29 PM EST
    the mighty Toledo this season.

    Parent
    Amen (none / 0) (#48)
    by lilburro on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 04:21:00 PM EST
    Penn State is going to win tonight at OSU.

    Parent
    Michigan State 35 Michigan 21 (none / 0) (#52)
    by cal1942 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 08:37:04 PM EST
    State finally gets it together with a 2 touchdown fourth quarter rally.

    One memorable moment was the worst call I've ever seen in 57 years of following college football.

    Parent

    Please describe that "worst call." (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:29:59 PM EST
    Couldn't find the game on TV or radio.

    Parent
    In the first quarter (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by cal1942 on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 10:15:29 PM EST
    on third and long Threet threw a pass to Minor near the front corner of the end zone.

    Catching the ball while in the air, one foot struck the outside of the pylon and the other about two feet farther out of bounds.  The on-field official correctly called the pass incomplete. The replay official called it a touchdown.

    The play-by-play people were stunned and showed a graphic of the rule at halftime clearly addressing such a situation and clearly the receiver was out of bounds.  

    All four end zone pylons (sometimes called flags, as in flag route) are out of bounds.  The receiver's foot came down on the outside of the pylon, the ball never crossed the plain of the goal line and both feet landed out of bounds beyond the pylon including the foot that had first struck the pylon.  The replay official had stated the exact opposite of the rule as his rationale.  

    After the game the on the field official said that the replay official had blown it and it should not have been a touchdown.

    On Big Ten Tonight (Big Ten Network) the play and the rule were shown again.

    I've seen hundreds of college football games and have seen blown calls before but most all are understandable.  It happens and over time they  even out. This one was bad with the aid of slow motion shots from several angles.

    Parent

    The worst (none / 0) (#65)
    by Makarov on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 11:45:48 PM EST
    I saw today was against TN near the end of the 1st half. They'd just moved the ball with a 1st down inside the 15, maybe a 1st and goal, and the play was called back for Offensive pass interference. The flag was based on the receiver giving the cornerback a little jam coming off the line.

    Worst call I've seen in college football all season.

    Parent

    Go Vols...I'm going tonight to try to pull (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Teresa on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:31:10 PM EST
    them through. I don't have much hope! You just never know with a Vol/Bama game. Watch for me on ESPN. :)

    Roll Tide! (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by kempis on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:48:20 PM EST
    :)

    And you're right: you never know what will happen during an Alabama-Tennessee game, or any SEC game for that matter. Whatta conference....

    Parent

    Best of luck Teresa n/t (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by cal1942 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 07:02:50 PM EST


    Parent
    Kathleen Parker suggests the main (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:46:33 PM EST
    reason Palin was chosen was her good looks. Wow. I also noticed today the sky usually has a light blue color to it...

    Profundity R Us! n/t (none / 0) (#28)
    by Fabian on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:37:14 PM EST


    Parent
    Just dropping by to say (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by lilburro on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 09:50:31 PM EST
    WE ARE...PENN STATE!

    Ha. Not exactly (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:01:09 PM EST
    a blowout, but congrats.  

    Parent
    But still awesome! (none / 0) (#55)
    by lilburro on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:08:13 PM EST


    Parent
    Agree (none / 0) (#74)
    by cal1942 on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 10:21:16 PM EST
    A good game actually.  Felt good for JoePa.

    Parent
    On another topic (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:05:29 PM EST
    A letter writer responds to the Time's endorsement of Obma here:

    To the Editor:

    In 2000, The New York Times, in its presidential endorsement of Al Gore, said of him, "We today firmly endorse Al Gore as the man best equipped for the presidency by virtue of his knowledge of government, his experience at the top levels of federal and diplomatic decision-making."

    In that same endorsement, in contrast, The Times wrote of George W. Bush: "But his résumé is too thin for the nation to bet on his growing into the kind of leader he claims already to be. He does have great personal charm."

    In its 2008 general-election presidential endorsement, The Times could have aptly recycled these aforementioned quotes nearly verbatim, this time substituting John McCain's name for Al Gore's and Barack Obama's for George W. Bush's.

    One can only conclude that the only difference this time around is that the eminently more qualified but less charismatic candidate happens to be a Republican.

    Nicole Samura
    Chelsea, Mass., Oct. 24, 2008


    I actually agree with this argument as far as it goes. But to me (and to the Times, though they won't admit it), issues and ideology matter more.

    In the 2000 exit poll Al Gore won overwhelmingly with people who said they valued experience. This year, John McCain will, but from an entirely different group of voters. It's just not a dispositive factor for most voters.


    But in fact (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Steve M on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:27:33 PM EST
    the Times endorsement goes on and on about ideology, so I'm not sure why you say they won't admit it.

    It's the letter-writer who is being disingenuous by acting like it's all about personal qualities.

    Parent

    The point is (none / 0) (#8)
    by andgarden on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:31:12 PM EST
    that the cited basis of the 2000 endorsement was phony baloney. They chose Gore for the same reason they chose Obama.

    Parent
    So in 2000 (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Steve M on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:40:54 PM EST
    the NYT said experience was the only reason?

    Parent
    No, of course not (none / 0) (#13)
    by andgarden on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:42:47 PM EST
    But they did give that as a reason, and it turns out that it really doesn't much matter to them, or anyone else.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Steve M on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:51:02 PM EST
    There's a really big hole in your logic here.  Just because you won't choose the candidate with all the wrong ideas for the country on the sole basis of experience, that doesn't mean experience "doesn't much matter."  It just means it's one factor out of many - which I'd imagine was exactly the part it played in the 2000 endorsement.

    Parent
    I think the question is: (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:58:38 PM EST
    what did they really care about in 2000? I think it's a little different than what they claimed to care about. The Times waffled about that in 2000. I would argue that they put more emphasis on Gore's experience vs Bush's lack of experience than they fundamentally cared about, and their Obama endorsement proves that.

    Parent
    For a chuckle read the NYT's (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Robot Porter on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 02:41:15 PM EST
    1940 endorsement of Wendell Willkie.

    One of the reasons they give:

    because we believe the fiscal policies of Mr. Roosevelt have failed disastrously.

    You can read the rest here.

    And when you read their reasons for believing this, you'll see how little in politics has changed in the last 68 years.

    You will also enjoy a belly laugh or two.

    Parent

    indeed (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by andgarden on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 02:51:16 PM EST


    Parent
    Colin Powell explained the difference well (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by barryluda on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:16:48 PM EST
    And as Newt Gingrich said:

    What that just did in one sound bite... is it eliminated the experience argument.

    How are you going to say the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, former national security adviser, former secretary of state was taken in?




    Parent
    That last line is dripping with irony? (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:18:42 PM EST


    Parent
    Indeed it is (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by andgarden on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:19:49 PM EST
    But anyone who'd see it that way is already voting for Obama.

    Parent
    Powell is just a Country First! kinda guy. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Fabian on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:41:13 PM EST
    With that mindset, lying in order to attack an Imminent Threat isn't worth noting.

    Parent
    For once (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by Lil on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:26:28 PM EST
    I'd like to see the "smartest guy in the room" get elected instead of just the most popular guy in the room. I think it is lucky for us that our guy is both this time around.

    Parent
    Go Canton McKinley Bulldogs (none / 0) (#3)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:08:29 PM EST
    Beat Massillon

    Elect John Boccieri in Ohio's 16th Congressional District.

    Supercapitalism (none / 0) (#11)
    by Manuel on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:40:36 PM EST
    I've been working through this book by Robert Reich.  I recommend it as thought provoking preparation for an Obama administration.  Surprisingly, Reich makes a case for eliminating the corporate tax.  What I enjoy the most, however, is the way he brings the economic statistics to life.

    Here is Larry Lessig's review.

    No corporate tax? (none / 0) (#29)
    by Fabian on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:39:23 PM EST
    How does he propose that corporations contribute to society?

    Parent
    He argues against corporate responsibility (none / 0) (#32)
    by Manuel on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 02:14:04 PM EST
    From Lessig's review

    Deep skepticism about government has made most of us turn away from it as a tool of sensible policy making. We instead (and this is a truly brilliant part of the book) turn to corporations to make good policy in government's stead. We push for "corporate social responsibility" and praise corporations who agree to do the "good" thing, imagining that this means something other than the "money making" thing. This, Reich says, is "politics diverted" - trusting companies to do good policy rather than getting government to set good policy, imagining "corporate social responsibility" will produce something different from corporations maximizing profits.

    On the corporte tax, Reich, borrowing from Lester Thurow, proposes treating corporate income as the personal income of shareholders.  Shareholders would be taxed according to their tax bracket and the corporation would withhold and pay taxes on the shareholders behalf.  I am not sure if this is a good idea but it definitely changes incentives.

    Parent

    Well, if that's the case.... (none / 0) (#49)
    by Fabian on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 04:21:29 PM EST
    it would have to be a flat tax.  Your tax rate isn't determined until you report your annual income.  

    I suppose the paperwork and head aches for the corporations may well be less burdensome than employing an entire department of legal and tax specialists.

    It's something to think about but I know very little about corporate taxes and the various corporate tax dodges.

    Parent

    Happy days are here again (none / 0) (#17)
    by robrecht on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:52:15 PM EST
    The skies above are clear again

    Supposed to be in response to CaptAmerica08 (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by robrecht on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:54:26 PM EST
    I also noticed today the sky usually has a light blue color to it...


    Parent
    Try Dublin. (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:19:17 PM EST


    Parent
    Dublin? (none / 0) (#27)
    by robrecht on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:35:22 PM EST


    Parent
    serious lack of blue sky. (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 02:14:05 PM EST


    Parent
    Wednesday in Orlando (none / 0) (#36)
    by michitucky on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 02:50:24 PM EST
    Via Politico and confirmed my the Obama Campaign, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama will be appearing together for the first time at a rally in Orlando on Wednesday......


    The New York Times has a list of possible (none / 0) (#38)
    by tigercourse on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:08:29 PM EST
    cabinet secs. and high level advisors for Obama. Interestingly, only 2 of the 19 were women.

    Darn, another one with my gov on it (none / 0) (#46)
    by Cream City on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 04:09:12 PM EST
    as he supposedly was to go to D.C. for backing Obama.  And I want my gov gone from Wisconsin.

    So it looks like the gov will break his promise and go for a third term here.  Btw, that prevents my state from having its first woman governor, too (and a great one).

    Parent

    cx: Another one without my gov on it (none / 0) (#47)
    by Cream City on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 04:09:39 PM EST
    so, yeh, darn it.

    Parent
    Indivdualism under attack (none / 0) (#39)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:12:29 PM EST
        
    House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

    McCain just stepped in it! (none / 0) (#40)
    by obiden08 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:17:08 PM EST
    You know, I was quietly seething at Biden's latest gaffe but I should have known McCain wouldn't be able to capitalize on it.  

    According to Mark Silver at The Swamp, here is what McCain said in New Mexico today:

    "I have been tested. I'm gonna test them. They're not gonna test me."

    Is it me or does he sound like a warmonger?  

    Now let's see Obama's ad from this.  

    Does McCain want to go down in flames?

    "Sound like a warmonger"? (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:18:28 PM EST
    He is a warmonger.

    Parent
    That's a campaign promise (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by lilburro on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 04:43:35 PM EST
    I don't want kept.

    Parent
    Actually he just sounds pathetic. (none / 0) (#44)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:38:16 PM EST


    Parent
    MileHiHawkeye: please (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:40:23 PM EST
    comment:

    MJ atop Del Taco order

    I'll chime in.... (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by kdog on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 08:59:45 AM EST
    Some people have all the luck...why can't I ever get such a special topping by mistake?

    They get a 21 dollar taco for a buck and they complain...weirdos:)  

    Parent

    Yeah, that would never happen to me. (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 11:04:31 AM EST
    Aside from not having Del Taco's, I never have that kind of luck.  

    It should be as easy as going to a drive-up at Walgreen's and ordering some though.

    Parent

    I figured this type of thing was (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 11:43:23 AM EST
    where Denver got that "Mile High" nickname.

    Parent
    Both McCain and Obama... (none / 0) (#66)
    by desertswine on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 01:57:29 AM EST
    were in Albuquerque today. McCain drew 1500 at the state fairgrounds, while Obama got 35,000 at UNM.  

    This race has got to be over.

    Be glad it's not Biden vs. Palin (none / 0) (#67)
    by Cream City on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 02:02:08 AM EST
    as she drew more than 10,000 in Des Moines today, so the local press says -- and many more had to be turned away at the door.

    Iowa?  What in heck is the hope for the GOP in Iowa?

    Parent

    Just goes to show... (none / 0) (#71)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 11:07:35 AM EST
    ...that there are people ready to climb on the Hate Tour '08 bandwagon everywhere, even in Iowa.  

    The "local press" also came out with an Obama endorsement today--and absolutely slammed Palin.  

    Parent

    And the... (none / 0) (#68)
    by CoralGables on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 02:16:15 AM EST
    Anchorage Daily News

    endorses Obama

    Saturday Open Thread | 74 comments (74 topical)

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