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Thursday Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 12:53:14 PM EST
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I'm at work today. Big Tent Democrat and TChris have several posts up, but in case they need to get on with their day, here's an open thread for you. All topics welcome, just be civil. I'll be back tonight.

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    Thursday Afternoon Open Thread | 122 comments (122 topical)

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    Joke Line (5.00 / 0) (#1)
    by white n az on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    Not that I haven't had my disagreements with him, he has a really good article in Time, Why Obama is Winning

    He does not get his credibility back (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:18:51 PM EST
    just because he hacks leftward for a while.

    Parent
    There's the classic (none / 0) (#48)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:23:55 PM EST
    Klein/Greenwald/FISA incident for anyone who thinks Klein is a hard working investigative hack.  Klein painted himself as ignorant and lazy in that debacle.

    Parent
    Reccomend you read Somerby (none / 0) (#25)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:57:03 PM EST
    on Klein...

    Parent
    Here's da link... (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:20:35 PM EST
    Daily Howler Wednesday

    Just because Klein is shilling for Obama now doesn't him any less a shill.

    Parent

    re: William Shatner's tiff with (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:11:34 PM EST
    another Star Trek actor (who Shatner says didn't invite hims to his same-sex wedding):  wouldn't this be a much more efficacious and inexpensive way to run Presidential primaries and campaigns?  Dueling videos on MySpace.

    I am starting to feel glad (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:26:26 PM EST
    that I didn't invite Shatner to my wedding, either.

    Maybe this is the real reason some people oppose same-sex marriage; even more events for them to be disinvited from!

    Parent

    Did Sulu marry? (none / 0) (#33)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:11:34 PM EST


    Parent
    Yes, according to AP: (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:15:38 PM EST
    Link

    Parent
    eeww, Shatner has no class. (none / 0) (#42)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:19:56 PM EST
    I wonder if Takei's "son" from Heroes attended.

    Parent
    oh, and we have some (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by liminal on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:29:16 PM EST
    - really bad circuit judges in WV, who are IMO abusing the public trust.  Two incumbent circuit judges and one incumbent magistrate who are all running unopposed have announced their "retirement."  A loophole in state law - designed to allow retired state employees to run for our (part-time, low-pay) state legislature without giving up their pension benefits - also allows these guys to draw both a full PERS pension and a full judicial salary if they "retire" before the election, then reassume their seats after being elected.

    They have to have enough years of service to switch their retirement from the judicial retirement system to PERS, the public employee retirement system, (or, just be part of PERS already - judges and magistrates get to choose) in order to pull the "retirement" scam, and they have to "retire" before the election, but as many incumbent judges are unopposed and/or face their only opposition in the primaries, there's nothing voters can do about.  

    So, the two circuit judges who have taken the plunge (thus far) will receive their $116,000 judicial salaries AND $80,000/year pension.

    Did I mention that the per capita income in the state is 19,400/year, and that the median income for women is 25,000/year, and that the median income for men is 37,000/year?

    Ya gotta be sh*ttin' me.... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:50:55 PM EST
    That is absolutely shameless.

    Can you guys get somebody to oppose these crooks in time for the election?  Write in a candidate?

    I can't believe they'd pull a stunt like that with a straight face.  

    Parent

    Nope. (none / 0) (#68)
    by liminal on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:15:34 PM EST
    They have no shame:

    Ferguson, who also is running unopposed, told the Huntington Herald-Dispatch he'd been planning this for months, and saw nothing wrong with it.

    And it's too late for any kind of opposition, including from a write-in candidate.

    Early voting has already started in the state, so there's no way of getting anyone else on the ballot.  

    On top of that, for write-in votes to be counted, the write-in candidate has to file an announcement form with either the county clerk or the WV Secretary of State at least 42 days prior to the election to be "certified" as a write-in candidate.  Now, anyone who files the form is "certified" as a write-in candidate (including Santa Claus an official write-in candidate in WV for President this November), but state law requires the form 42 days prior to the election.  Of course, our noble judges waited until AFTER the write-in deadline had passed, to ensure they would have no opposition.

    Parent

    Thanks for reminding me to fight (none / 0) (#76)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:33:42 PM EST
    to keep another good election law in my state -- I checked -- that doesn't require write-ins to register at all, much less by any deadline.  And my state retains those write-ins names as the voter intended and does not award them to another candidate.

    More reason that we really, lo this century and a half since the Civil War, have to work against this artifact of states' rights and have to work for national election law in this country.  As long as I don't have to give up the good laws in my state.:-)

    Parent

    I've got a gripe about the Obama campaign (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:31:13 PM EST
    The other day, I signed up - via the site - for their "Counsel for Change" program.  That's the one where they get attorneys and law students to work on election protection.

    So far, so good.  I gave them all my info, cell phone, email, etc.

    I even made clear that I could clear out the 3-4 days prior to the election to work, in addition to being free for election day.  

    I even offered to go to a battleground state - not my own.

    I even told them "Call me".

    Two days have gone by and I've gotten like three or four fundraising blast emails begging for money.

    But I have not heard a peep from the campaign about volunteering.

    I make squat and have a hard time making my bills every month*.  I've offered to give the campaign the better part of a week of my time to deal with winning.  I have time to give, but not money.  So they ask for money.

    WTF????

    I thought they were Organized!  That they Got Back To People.  That they Returned Calls.  That they Closed the Loop.

    All I'm hearing is crickets and the whirring of resume-buffering.

    This race isn't over and, Campaign, if you don't close this deal, there won't be another one.
    -

    * Don't tell me this indicates I should spend my time making coin rather than blogging here and elsewhere.  For me, it's down to "if McCain pulls it out, then come November 5 list the house for a quick sale, start looking into moving to Canada or Europe, and plan on leaving your friends, neighbors and family and starting your life over when you're pushing 50."  Since I love America and so much about it, in addition to it being my native country, I would much rather spend time and effort trying to fix it, rather than cut and run.  

    You might get a better response (5.00 / 0) (#59)
    by liminal on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:45:03 PM EST
    if you picked the nearest battleground state, looked up the local office, and called them, offering assistance.  I bet they'd be thrilled to get your call.

    Parent
    Surprised you expected anything more scribe... (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:39:07 PM EST
    If there is a D or an R after their name they want money so they can have power to dole out money.

    Parent
    You are corect, but (none / 0) (#57)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:42:28 PM EST
    your love of country means you wind up wanting to give the clowns one more chance.

    Go read mine down the thread at 54 - you surely understand the inclination.


    Parent

    Odd. (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:02:04 PM EST
    My fiend just got his severance from Countrywide last week and is working for the Oboma campaign in Ohio right now.

    He's an att'y, just like you...

    Parent

    Sorry, "friend" & "Obama." (none / 0) (#64)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:03:20 PM EST


    Parent
    if he worked for the 'boiler room' (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:08:27 PM EST
    Countrywide, then fiend probably isn't too far off...

    just a tiny, uhmm, joke I guess...

    Parent

    He was mid-level mgt. Even worse. (none / 0) (#74)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:30:19 PM EST


    Parent
    New Florida Poll (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:34:23 PM EST
    Barack Obama has opened up a 49-42 percent lead over John McCain in Florida, according to a new Miami Herald poll showing the Democrat earns high marks on the economy and is drawing outsized support with the swing voters who decide elections in the nation's largest swing state.

    The entire article can be read HERE

    Absentee ballots tossed out in VA (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 09:51:02 PM EST
    already.  Is Virginia going to be the new Florida/Ohio?

    It's tossing out absentee ballots already because . . . well, it's just too weird -- read Ambinder here -- with more problems in state laws.  We need a national election law.

    I agree with you completely -- this stinks. (none / 0) (#120)
    by Don in Seattle on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 08:33:29 AM EST
    And I have no problem with the idea of Federalizing election law.

    However, I would guess that some people would see this as an excuse for further trampling on States' Rights, or whatever they're calling that nowadays.

    Parent

    If you didn't think.... (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:08:24 PM EST
    drug prohibition was big business...now you can rent your own drug sniffing dog.

    Can't help but think if ya need a drug sniffing dog to keep your kid from getting high, maybe you're not much of a parent?

    I knew somone who'd adopted (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:10:10 PM EST
    a former drug dog after his K9 days were over.

    Everything went well, until they had a party at the house and the dog alerted on one of the guests and wouldn't leave the guest alone.

    Everyone was quite embarrassed.

    Parent

    Funny stuff.... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:28:19 PM EST
    A friend of mine adpted a dog who flunked out of drug-sniffing school.

    Not every dog is cut out for work in the tyranny business I guess...I loved that dog:)

    Parent

    I lost my stash (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:43:52 PM EST
    can I borrow the dog to find it?

    Parent
    HEH! (none / 0) (#21)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:45:22 PM EST


    Parent
    Come to think of it.... (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:53:55 PM EST
    this service could be very popular with rippers and thieves.

    Parent
    Do you speak from the perspective (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:09:35 PM EST
    of actual parenthood of a teenager?

    Parent
    I do not.... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:17:54 PM EST
    but as a former dope-smoking teenager, I can say with full confidence my parents renting a dog wouldn't have accomplished the intended goal of a drug free kid...I'd have just stopped trusting them and started getting sneaky.

    They knew I smoked dope because we (gasp!) talked about it together honestly as a family without anybody flying off the handle or being unreasonable...my parents of course said they would rather I didn't, but if I did to stay safe and not let it get out of hand.

    Seems to have worked, I'm a tax-paying semi-productive member of society today:)

    Parent

    Parents (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by eric on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:24:31 PM EST
    now can track their kid's grades, attendance, homework assignments, etc. in real-time on their computers.  Schools actually publish this stuff.  They track their movements with GPS in phones or in the car.  They will soon be able to limit driving speed in the car. On and on.

    Now, they can get a drug sniffing dog?

    I just can't imagine how this is going to affect kids once they grow up.  To have been so controlled and observed; to have had been trusted so little.

    It can't be good.

    Parent

    I hear that.... (5.00 / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:32:45 PM EST
    I'm always saying it must really suck to be a kid in 2008.

    My sister's daughter is in third grade now and still can't leave her block alone. When I was in third grade I had explored every inch of my neighborhood and the surrounding neighborhoods on my trusty bike.  When I bust my sister's chops about it she always says "its different now", yet can't explain how it is so different.  

    Parent

    Yes, and it is more than (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by eric on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:50:15 PM EST
    just the case of over-protected kids.  We all know the story of the over-protected kid who goes wild once he escapes his parents.

    The problem here is the complete lack of trust that these mechanisms of control and observation create.  If you are never trusted to even turn in your assignments on time without fear of being checked on, you don't feel trusted.  As such, I believe, you never develop a sense of personal responsibility.  You do the right things because you are being watched and monitored - not because it is the right thing to do.  This is the part that troubles me.

    Parent

    Not quite true (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:21:39 PM EST
    It's the over-controlled kid who goes wild, not the over-protected or well-protected kid.  

    There's a big gradient from

    1. Prohibiting actions & controlling their decisions, to
    2. Allowing options and encouraging good choices, then supporting most of  their decisions,
    and at the other extreme,
    3) Giving up any attempts at control because it'll just drive them into secrecy.  

    I don't need a drug dog, I just introduced my kids to my adult hippie friends who are daily pot smokers or alcoholics.  They may try drugs, but I'm pretty sure they won't be suckered into smoking cigarettes or getting immersed in the drug culture.  Alcohol might be another story, given how ambivalent our culture is toward casual use.  


    Parent

    Ambivalence is the way to go... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:33:35 PM EST
    with casual and responsible use of any and all substances...for adults.  Deal with behavior and acts directly harmful to others.

    Raising kids ain't easy, I don't envy any of you parents...that's for damn sure:)  It's a fine line, no doubt.

    Parent

    You're onto something E... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:04:40 PM EST
    ties into the whole "don't be honest, be sneaky" thing I'm always on about.  

    The honest person with a strong moral conscience  is not what society seems to produce, it produces somebody who can game the system, dodge the cameras, not get caught...that is the behavior that is rewarded.  It's little wonder why.

    I know all about it...taking a drug masker when I take a piss test to get a job sure as hell ain't honest my brother, but I'm learning to be sneaky.  The next generation will be master sneaks, but what of their moral compass?

    Parent

    What does all this intrusiveness breed? (none / 0) (#31)
    by jerry on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:04:55 PM EST
    Everything about government (and business) today is spy on the citizen.  Cameras here there and everywhere.  Step out of line, pay a fine.  Communicate with all cities and states about those fines and perhaps you can't get a drivers license elsewhere.  

    Pay the fine mister.

    Jump through the hoops.

    Don't even think about questioning authority, we'll get you in 10 different ways.

    (On the other hand, I must admit the notion of buying a drug sniffing golden lab puppy and giving it to your tween is pretty good from a dad-as-ultimate-prankster point of view.  (Rotten no good very smart tween will probably figure it out and train the puppy to lie as well as clean up the room of seeds and paraphernalia.))

    Parent

    A man after me own heart:) (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:18:38 PM EST
    Orwell was one smart cat...

    If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.


    Parent
    Sounds like my fam (none / 0) (#46)
    by CST on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:21:15 PM EST
    I got the "don't do hard drugs" talk.  It worked a lot better on me than my friends who got the "don't do any drugs" talk and completely ignored their parents.  I appreciated that they didn't lie to me, and they appreciated that I didn't lie to them.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:28:34 PM EST
    I'm sure I got a "don't do drugs" talk too.  This was followed by a, "well, we did drugs too" talk.  Finally my mom just told me not to buy drugs.  Real chintzy, mom!

    Parent
    Just yesterday my brother reminded me (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:43:39 PM EST
    of a particular teenage pot smoking experience we had that I had forgotten about, and I felt really ashamed.

    W/o going into too much detail we and some other parents/teens were invited by a friend of the family on a ski trip and my bro and I spent a lot of the time secretly getting high. We thought we were the bomb.

    That friend really did a lot for me and my family over the years and, as I found out a year later at his funeral, he had found out he was terminally ill and set up the ski trip and some other events becuase he just wanted to live out his remaining months bringing as much joy to his friends as he could.

    If he had known or found out we were getting high during his trip, man, he would have been crushed that we abused his trust.

    Ah well, I was just being a kid I guess.

    Parent

    I'm not following.... (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:52:24 PM EST
    do you feel guilty because you didn't spend more time with your friend who was ill?  Or was your friend staunchly anti-drug?

    I don't understand how you abused his trust.  If his wish was to have a good timing skiing with his friends, sounds like you fulfilled it...no?

    Unless you would rather not elaborate...then no worries brother, just don't be so hard on yourself.

    Parent

    Just this, kdog: (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:02:21 PM EST
    If he had known or found out we were getting high during his trip, man, he would have been crushed that we abused his trust.
    At the very least, breaking the law is not what he invited us on the trip to do.

    I knew that guy from about 1st grade, when he died he left me some personal items that he knew I would appreciate.

    Parent

    Say no more my brother.... (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:10:02 PM EST
    I forget sometimes how little weight "the law" carried in my house and in my circles growin' up...not exactly the norm.

    Parent
    I don't know (none / 0) (#12)
    by Lil on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:33:02 PM EST
    I recently got the shock of my life with a drug using young adult in my life; and we think we are pretty involved parents.

    Parent
    My 2 cents... (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:38:09 PM EST
    if I may...don't hire a drug dog or start reading their instant messages...it won't help, it will only make them harder to reach.

    Parent
    Sorry. Sending good (none / 0) (#70)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:17:03 PM EST
    thoughts your way.

    Parent
    thank you (heartfelt) (none / 0) (#87)
    by Lil on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:27:27 PM EST


    Parent
    Violent juror in Stevens' trial. (none / 0) (#10)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:29:14 PM EST
    This is a new one for me - it appears one of the jurors in the Ted Stevens trial will have to be dismissed b/c she's being violent and disruptive in the jury room.

    Reading between the lines of the jury's (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:33:04 PM EST
    initial notes to the Court, I thought:  about to have a juror dismissed.

    Parent
    I try not to read between the lines (none / 0) (#17)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:38:44 PM EST
    when the jury is out because, like TChris said, it's just reading tea leaves.  And it's even less productive.

    Even when it comes to their notes.

    But, when trying a case, it's often impossible to determine from their notes exactly what it is that they are asking - because they often don't know how to formulate a question.

    The most recent case I tried, I started reading something and was awakened by the kindly court clerk some time later with a nudge on my shoulder and one word "verdict".  That was perhaps the most efficacious way of spending the wait - catching a nap.

    Parent

    "Try" is the operative word. (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    Last case (and I do mean "last):  foreperson requested additional input from the Court on the meaning of "consent."  Judge sd. "you have all the instructions you are going to get."  W/i about 45 minutes, jury returned a verdict.  

    Parent
    good lord (none / 0) (#15)
    by Lil on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:35:57 PM EST
    can this get any weirder? It gets harder to believe the things going on lately.

    Parent
    More on the violent juror (none / 0) (#23)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:50:50 PM EST
    The judge brought the jurors in to try to work it out.  

    The defense is urging that the Court try to keep this jury together.  

    Not a bad strategy, that, because if the case is mistried because of juror misconduct, then it's very likely the case will start all over again and all the government misconduct re the discovery and potential Brady violations will be out of the case. The government's screwing up was, IMHO, the strongest part of the defense's case.  

    More.

    Parent

    And it now appears (none / 0) (#39)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:18:32 PM EST
    The judge managed to get the jurors to get along, enough to send them back without having to dismiss that juror.

    Parent
    I'd boot the disruptive juror, (none / 0) (#88)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:31:48 PM EST
    call back an alternate, and have the jury re-start their deliberations....

    Parent
    The Governator's opinion on (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:34:14 PM EST
    whether Gov. Palin is ready to be President:

    Schwartzenegger on Palin

    For the open thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:45:13 PM EST
    SUSA sez: still no race in PA.

    interesting (none / 0) (#65)
    by Lil on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:07:22 PM EST
    that they say whites are drifting back to McCain, and it is still a blowout.

    Parent
    Just got a call for a donation (none / 0) (#26)
    by cpa1 on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 01:58:31 PM EST
    for Elwyn Tinklenberg who is running against our favorite Michele Bachman.  Being from NY, I was a little sleptical but after giving the guy on the phone the third degree and asking him if he reads blogs and which ones, I determined he was legit and I did give a donation. Afterwards we talk a bit and he certainly was genuine.

    So, if you get a call for Elwyn Tinklenberg, it's probably fine and I guess you can always reverse the credit card charge if it went someplace else.

    You can go to www.tinklenberg08.com to check him out.  He seems like a real genuine guy and we have to get rid of Bachman.

    That's odd (none / 0) (#27)
    by eric on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:01:54 PM EST
    maybe you are on DCCC's list?

    Parent
    Yeah I thought that odd too. Cool, (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:04:32 PM EST
    but odd.

    Parent
    Elwyn Tinkelberg!?! (none / 0) (#37)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:16:11 PM EST
    Are you sure you didn't get a call from the parallel dimension where Charles Dickens is ruler of the world?

    Parent
    Yeh, I just was thinking (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:35:01 PM EST
    that if I got a call from an Elwyn Tinkelberg, I would think it was my weird joker of a brother.

    Parent
    Charles Dickens? (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by cpa1 on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:15:59 PM EST
    Now this is getting freaky as we are going to see "A Tale of Two Cities" tomorrow night?

    I think there was a push for Ticklenberg because of the distgusting pig Michele Bachman turned into or maybe she always was but this whole socialism thing shined a light on her.

    We need names for the Republicans.  How about Plutos because they are dogs and they promote the plutochrisy?  Plutopigs?

    Parent

    A woman working (none / 0) (#34)
    by liminal on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:13:55 PM EST
    at a call center in Weston quit her job rather than read an anti-Obama script paid for by the McCain campaign.

    The script is really bad, and apparently they don't trust their employees to be able to pronounce Ayers:

    "Hello, I'm calling for John McCain and the RNC because you need to know that Barack Obama has worked closely with domestic terrorist Bill Ayers [airs], whose organization bombed the US Capitol, the Pentagon, a judge's home, and killed Americans.

    "And Democrats will enact an extreme leftist agenda if they take control of Washington. Barack Obama and his Democrat allies lack the judgment to lead our country.

    "This call was paid for by McCain-Palin 2008 and the Republican National Committee."

    There have also been several reports in local papers that electronic voting machines used in early voting were switching votes from Democratic to Republican candidates in WV:

    In Ripley, Jackson Co:

    Calvin Thomas, 81, who retired from Kaiser Aluminum in Ravenswood in 1983 and now lives in Ripley, experienced the same problem.

    "When I pushed Obama, it jumped to McCain. When I went down to governor's office and punched [Gov. Joe] Manchin, it went to the other dude. When I went to Karen Facemyer [the incumbent Republican state senator], I pushed the Democrat, but it jumped again.

    ...

    "When I hollered about that, the girl who worked there said, 'Push it again.' I pushed Obama again and it stayed there. Then, the machine did the same thing for other candidates."

    In Winfield, Putnam County.

    In Martinsburg, Berkley County.

    The Secretary of State attributes the errors to poorly calibrated touchscreen machines (the sensitive part is in the wrong place, or whatever) and/or voter error, but some county officials have complained that they don't receive sufficient technical support from ES&S.  I don't think that this is a deliberate campaign to skew the vote, but it definitely raises questions about touchscreen technology... and it reminded me of that Simpsons clip where Homer tries to vote Obama...

    Phillies in six. (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:14:38 PM EST


    Shoot me now.... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:20:48 PM EST
    if you're right...but never underestimate the general ineptitude of Philly sports franchises.

    Nah...I'm not a bitter Mets fan...not at all:)

    Parent

    Well, dog, I've got two things to say about that (none / 0) (#54)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:35:51 PM EST
    1.  Kaczmir looked pretty good last night, especially when he kept getting out of those runners-in-scoring position jams.  I mean, Philly was 0/13 with RISP and Howard 0/4 with 3Ks.  

    One wonders how he would have looked in a Mets uni.

    2.  Reporter, October 2007:  "So, Jimmy, how does it feel to be proven right [on the last day of the season about the Phils being the team to beat in the NL East]?"
        Jimmy Rollins:  "It feels wet with champagne."

    Parent

    Keep squeezin' those lemons... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:44:42 PM EST
    in my wounds.

    I'll let my boy Lupus from the Chico's Bail Bonds Bears speak for me...

    "...stick that trophy up your arse and wait till next year."


    Parent
    I voted today (none / 0) (#45)
    by kmblue on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:21:10 PM EST
    In Atlanta, GA.  I live in town so had to vote in the Fulton County Government building.  Took an hour from the time I walked in until the time I walked out.

    Lots of polite conversation on line about how local news is reporting lines are long everywhere for early voting.

    My wife and I voted last night... (none / 0) (#78)
    by desertswine on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:36:32 PM EST
    for Obama, but without illusions.

    In fact, we voted for all the Democrats.


    Parent

    I am moving if Obama don't pull it off... (none / 0) (#56)
    by suzyishere on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:39:42 PM EST
    If McCain pulls off this election, Come Nov 5 I am headed north to Canada for the duration. Living in the red state of Georgia, I have had it with the Repubs. Period!

    I'm with you (none / 0) (#72)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:21:24 PM EST
    unfortunately Obama hasn't really made me feel much better, but Palin was the nail in the coffin...

    the last thing this country needs is a preemptive strike on Iran, or a country run by the bible, by people who dont' know how to understand it...

    and those things will happen if this country heads down the path led by Palin and her extremist/terrorist buddies like Hagee...

    I'm thinking Europe, but maybe Australia/NZ...
    it's not like me to give up, but I can't figure this country out right now...at least 75% of it anyway...

    too bad we can't vote Ventura...

    Parent

    Paging all elitists (none / 0) (#61)
    by CST on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:52:04 PM EST
    John McCain has located you.

    To be honest, I'm a little jealous that my city didn't make the list.  I mean, we were the original "dictate what they believe to America rather than let Americans decide for themselves" city.

    wouldn't Palin's definition (none / 0) (#77)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:35:25 PM EST
    of elitism pretty much make all of her supporters elitist..

    I haven't found a Palin supporter yet that doesn't think that an American christian isn't better than anyone from an islamic nation...

    also, doesn't Palin think she's better than Obama?  Seems to me she's made that point many times over...guess she's an elitist too...

    the idiocy is off the boards...it's depressing...someone shoot me...

    Parent

    That's more "exceptionalism" (none / 0) (#102)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:41:34 PM EST
    as "elitist" is more economic class-oriented.

    Parent
    McCain just visited St Charles, outside of (none / 0) (#104)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:59:18 PM EST
    St Louis in my homestate...

    St Charles is the definition of elitism (well, outside of Clayton)...

    this process is just making me sick...

    I used to have hope...thanks Palin/McCain and your supporters for stripping me of my hope..

    but wait, isn't Palin supposed to be providing hope to all, based upon her own comments...
    guess she's not doing a fantastic job...

    Parent

    St. Charles. Beautiful (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 10:08:16 PM EST
    place, at least in the Fall.  

    Parent
    I guess they got the definition wrong then (none / 0) (#110)
    by CST on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 06:42:15 PM EST
    As they didn't say it was specifically economic, Palin said "anyone who thinks they're better than someone else"

    Well, I think I've got to be better than SOMEONE else :) - Osama?

    And McCain said "Who think that they can dictate what they believe to America rather than let Americans decide for themselves."

    Sounds like every politician I know...

    Parent

    It just gets too complicated to use (none / 0) (#111)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 06:58:03 PM EST
    the term when it involves religion, too, as the comment did, as elitist religions tend to be mainstream Protestant (i.e., higher economic class, too).  But exceptionalism gets away from that complication (and is used more in comparative religious studies -- as well as in history and poli sci, though, to describe Americans' view of themselves in this world.

    Maybe just "arrogance" would be the more apt and general word in this case.

    Parent

    Somerby on press inanity (none / 0) (#67)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:11:03 PM EST
    From today's Howler:

    Today, power has fled from Saint McCain; it's time for a Dem to clean up the messes, as Clinton was allowed to do, long ago. (The attacks began as soon as he started.) That's right! Things are so bad in DC today that power has fled the GOP! But don't worry! Power will turn back against your tribe--and they will defeat you once again, through the uses of their inanity.

    If we were smart, we'd try to stamp out this culture--the press corps' culture of inanity. In the future, this culture will be used against you, as it has been used in the past. But your leaders on cable are being paid millions. To tell you the truth, they aren't very smart--and they enjoy having fun.

    We know, we know--you're enjoying this too! That's what the other side counts on.

    This should be taped to everyone's monitor, lest they be tempted to reward the press for their inanity just because it happens to be directed against the other side this time. He is referencing the media flap over Palin's clothes.


    Yeah, I WISH Media Darling (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:01:33 PM EST
    meant objective investigative journalists think you are the most qualified candidate who has only the best interests of American citizens at heart.

    However, Media Darling either means the Media Corps like you for their own ($$$) reasons or they think you have a dramatic narrative they can milk for ratings.

    Parent

    Dem candidate Darcy Burner filed a (none / 0) (#71)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:17:29 PM EST
    Federal Elections Commission complaint over an ad buying illegal loan provided to the campaign of her Repub opponent, Republican incumbent Dave Reichert by his media buying firm.

    (Cough-cheaters...)

    For the worriers amongst us: (none / 0) (#73)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:26:29 PM EST
    AP

    Layoffs - Can you hear us Warshington? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:31:22 PM EST
    RealtyTrac said there were foreclosure filings on more than 765,000 properties in the third quarter.

    Wall Street Layoffs Could Surge Past 200,000

    Goldman Sachs to Cut 10% of Workforce: Report

    More Involuntary Layoffs Coming at General Motors

    Chrysler said that it was closing one assembly plant early and eliminating a shift at another, resulting in 1,825 job cuts.

    Hawaii reports 9 'mass layoffs' in September

    One in Four Companies Planning Layoffs, But Most Taking Measured ...''

    The White House braced the US public for a sharp rise in layoffs and unemployment stemming from the global economic crisis

    Layoffs, litigation sting Brooke Corp.

    Bleeding purple: layoffs hit Yahoo Internet

    Police face cuts as economy falters

    Worthington Industries Announces Layoffs and Facility Closings

    Xerox Earnings Top Estimate; Some Layoffs Being Talked About

    General Motors (GM) to Begin Involuntary Layoffs of Salaried ... StreetInsider.com (subscription)
    GM Plans White-Collar Cuts Wall Street Journal
    GM to cut salaried jobs, reduce benefits DetNews

    *    Pepsico to can six plants.
    *    Tesla Motors is pulling the plug in Michigan.
    *    Lear to cut costs through next year.
    The following future closings and permanent mass layoffs were reported in Alabama.
    *    Altadis USA Inc. is closing its cigar factory on Morgan Street in Selma and laying off 213 workers on Nov. 14.
    *    Cooper Hosiery Mills is laying off 200 workers at 4005 Gault Ave. North in Fort Payne this month.

    Greenwood Publishing Group Inc. is closing down and laying off 150 workers at 88 Post Road West in Westport, CT, on Dec. 6.

    The following future closings and permanent mass layoffs were reported in Iowa.
    *    Citi is laying off 177 workers at 699 Walnut St. in Des Moines by Nov. 30.
    *    Eagle Ottawa is laying off 43 employees at 4455 Remington Road in Waterloo by Dec. 2.
    *    Norwood Promotional Products is closing down and laying off 180 workers at 202 F Ave. NW in Cedar Rapids on Nov. 29.

    The following future closings and permanent mass layoffs were reported in Maryland.
    *    APS Healthcare is closing down and laying off 47 employees in Silver Spring on Oct. 31.
    *    Bryan and Sons is closing down and laying off 75 employees in Easton on Dec. 31.
    *    Gardner Denver is closing down and laying off 52 employees at 7222 Parkway Drive in Hanover on Nov. 7.
    *    Pearson Vue is laying off 66 employees at 8201 Corporate Drive, Metro-Plex II, Suite 400, in Landover on Nov. 10.
    *    PNC is laying off 74 employees in Riverdale on Nov. 21.
    *    Rock-Tenn is closing down and laying off 125 employees at 2400 Broening Hwy # R in Baltimore on Nov. 14.

    The following future closings and permanent mass layoffs were reported in Michigan; no layoff dates were identified.
    *    Citizens Bank is closing down and laying off 37 employees In Flint.
    Double JJ Resort is closing down and laying off 150 employees at 5900 Water Road in Rothbury.
    *    Hewitt Associates is closing down and laying off 60 employees at 249 N Rose St. in Kalamazoo.
    *    Lapeer Metal Stamping Plant #2 is closing down and laying off 106 employees at 930 S Saginaw St. in Lapeer; 159 employees at 249 N. Center St. in Sebawing; and 87 employees at 8111 Tireman Ave. in Dearborn.
    *    Len Industries Inc. is laying off 50 employees at 815 Rice St. in Leslie.
    *    Rehrig United is closing down and laying off 114 employees at 4909 Wayne Road in Battle Creek.

    Builders FirstSource Inc., a supplier and manufacturer of structural and related building products, has decided to exit the New Jersey market. The company operates a distribution center, a manufacturing facility and three showrooms. It leases 146,530 square feet at 20 S. Middlesex Ave. in Monroe; 52,000 square feet at 110 Tices Lane, Suite 1A, in East Brunswick; occupies 32,000 square feet at 1 Progress Road in North Brunswick; and has locations at 27 and 40 Cotters Lane in East Brunswick.

    The following future closings and permanent mass layoffs were reported in Ohio.
    *    Archway and Mother's Cookie Co. is closing its facility at 2041 Claremont Ave. in Ashland and laying off 278 workers this month.
    *    Dolco Packaging is closing down and laying off 114 workers at 1261 Bruckner Drive in Troy by Dec. 22.
    *    International Paper Co. is closing its container plant at 990 Reading Road in Mason and laying off 93 workers by Dec. 2.
    *    Norwalk Furniture Corp. has been unable to obtain the capital to keep running its plant at 100 Furniture Pkwy. in Norwalk and will be closing it down and laying off 497 employees.
    *    TTI Floor Care North America is closing down its return center and laying off 57 workers at 1200 Babbitt Road in Euclid by the end of the year.

    The following future closings and permanent mass layoffs were reported in Virginia.
    *    The ARS Group started laying off 75 workers at 5878 Bayside Road in Virginia Beach.
    *    Cardinal Logistics Management Corp. is laying off 125 workers at 6306D Gravel Ave. in Alexandria this month.

    The following future closings and permanent mass layoffs were reported in Washington.
    *    Meridian Yacht's/US Marine is closing down and laying off 445 workers at 17825 59th Ave. in Arlington by the end of next month.
    *    Milgard Windows is closing down and laying off 80 workers at 3800 136th St. in Marysville on Oct. 24.
    *    Stimson Lumber Co. is closing down and laying off 109 workers at 634 Hwy. 395 South in Colville on Dec. 8.

    The following future closings and permanent mass layoffs were reported in Wisconsin.
    *    Bremner Food Group provided notice of a mass layoff, effective December 9, 2008, is laying off 56 production and maintenance employees and nine administrative employees at its Ripon Foods at 420 E. Oshkosh St. in Ripon on Dec. 9.
    *    General Motors plans to cease production and close its Janesville Assembly plant by Dec. 23, resulting in what it described as "the indefinite layoff" of approximately 1,253 workers.

    all of these and above in the last 3 days (none / 0) (#81)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:57:17 PM EST
    Mass layoffs highest since 9/11, Wis. workers feeling the effects

    'Major' Layoffs at Time Inc.'s Southern Progress Magazines

    Newark Chrysler plant to close by Dec. 31 Cherry Hill Courier Post
    Chrysler to offer buyouts in shift shutdown 13abc

    Manufacturing accounts for 28% of Sept. mass layoffs

    Mahalo feels economic pressure, lays off 10 percent of staff

    "Dozens And Dozens" Of Ad Networks Will Die In 2009

    Stock Building Supply to cut 3000 jobs, shutter 86 facilities

    Layoffs soar nationally, increase significantly in Illinois

    Deals of Day: Layoffs Loom In Every Industry
    Wall Street Journal Blogs, NY - Oct 21, 2008

    State cuts hit local offices
    Orange County Review, VA - 6 hours ago

    Sources: Other Brokerages to Follow C&W in Cuts
    GlobeSt. com, NY - 2 hours ago

    Circuit City mulls mass layoffs, store closures

    Layoffs At Cottages & Gardens Show No One Safe

    Stiles lays off 35 in development and construction

    Rheem To Layoff 180 Employees

    Merck to cut 7200 jobs FiercePharma

    City Hall employees cast aside after layoffs
    Yale Daily News, CT - Oct 22, 2008

    Petrilla: Court workers to be included in layoff
    Wilkes Barre Times-Leader, PA - Oct 21, 2008

    Layoffs planned at Integreon
    In-Forum, ND - Oct 21, 2008

    Oakland to cut jobs, close City Hall to close budget gap
    Oakland Tribune, CA - 15 hours ago

    Layoffs Becoming Necessary Evil for Tech Companies
    IT Business Edge, KY - Oct 21, 2008

    Truck Maker Plans to Cut 3500 Jobs in US and Canada
    New York Times, United States - Oct 14, 2008


    Parent

    The economy... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by vml68 on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:21:46 PM EST
    I am going to ask this question again. Considering how much we have been talking about the $150k Palin has spent on clothes, why aren't we talking about how Obama collected $150 million this past month?
    It is just obscene to be spending that kind of money campaigning when so many people are hurting. How can he talk about how we are going to help the less fortunate and yet not do anything about campaign finance reform?

    Parent
    see my diatribe yesterday and the day (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:26:18 PM EST
    before how 2.3 billion spent on this election is more than disgusting.  2.3 bn could buy 6 months of 153,000 americans mortgage payments.  And with 765,000 people going into foreclosure this quarter, I wonder how they feel about the loss of jobs and 2.3bn on an election of their leaders who have done NOTHING to address the jobs crisis.

    Parent
    Looks like Bloomberg can run again? (none / 0) (#79)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:44:05 PM EST
    29-22 in favor of extending the term limits to 3

    Are YOU in favor of Bloomberg's (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:51:05 PM EST
    third term? I hear he's been exceptional, but I don't live in NY of course.

    Parent
    Bloomberg has been pretty decent (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:02:59 PM EST
    A few of us here got a lot of grief at Daily Kos for voting for him, back in the day.  The less said about that the better.

    Like Barack Obama, Bloomberg has a certain "no drama" quality about him that voters seem to find appealing.  If I were still living in NYC, I'd have to see who the Democrats put up, but I'd certainly consider voting for him again.  I'm no fan of term limits and I certainly can't see what's wrong with giving voters the choice to vote for him if they want to.

    Parent

    I think Anthony Wiener was planning on running (none / 0) (#83)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:17:18 PM EST
    and the City comptroller?

    I'm fine with Bloomberg running again. I hope he runs as an Indie just so we can have 3 parties seriously running. Of course polling has him beating either party, lol!~

    Parent

    Yes, I am. He's good and we only (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:18:21 PM EST
    pay him a buck a year, lol!~

    Parent
    Even as a member.... (none / 0) (#121)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 08:45:30 AM EST
    of one of his favorite target demographics, smokers, I gotta say on the whole he's been pretty good.  Though that may change if he tries to rob us for another 1.50 a apack anytime soon:)

    But am I against overturning the term limit...the next person to go for three might not be so hot, Rudy wanted a third and he woulda won, that woulda been awful.  I like fresh blood and fresh ideas, two terms is enough.

    Parent

    Yes, one more term. (none / 0) (#90)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:51:58 PM EST
    There will be lawsuits, of course, but the ones before the vote were thrown out.

    A Charter review commission will decide in 2010 whether to keep the new limits or revert to two (or, possibly, to go to four, or eliminate them all together).

    Presumably Bloomberg will win the election next year, but it's not guaranteed.  He will lose some popularity over the issue.

    Parent

    I think he'll pick some of the loss (none / 0) (#91)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:00:31 PM EST
    back up as the election gets closer. Reality vs the past ;)

    If I'm still here, I'll vote for him again most likely. I'd like to see him continue some of his work, which I bet he will even out of office.

    Parent

    Lynn Swan's for McCain. (none / 0) (#89)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:35:36 PM EST
    As much as I rail against any giving any weight to any "celeb's" political opinions, come on, this is friggin' Lynn Swan.

    Maybe he took one too many hits? (none / 0) (#92)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:01:15 PM EST


    Parent
    Of Course (none / 0) (#94)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:03:00 PM EST
    Lynn Swann finished further behind in the polls in his Gubernatorial race than McCain is trailing now. Perhaps the hidden plan is to pull McCain down to a Swann like 40% in PA.

    Parent
    You guys. Come on, Lynn friggin' Swan! (none / 0) (#96)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:08:39 PM EST


    Parent
    No, we REALLY don't know! (none / 0) (#118)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 04:49:07 AM EST
    I volunteered for my local PBS station and took a pledge from a current OSU football player.  "You don't know who that is?" was the chorus.

    Nope.  Not a friggin' clue.  Football is something I watch when the sports junkie sibs are around - that's about a half dozen games a year, holiday weekends.

    Parent

    A sports celeb? (none / 0) (#95)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:08:15 PM EST
    Sorry, had to google the name.  The name meant nothing to me before and still means nothing now.

    Parent
    Ah, man. You should have seen him catch the ball. (none / 0) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:10:23 PM EST
    He soared.

    Parent
    I will admit (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:41:30 PM EST
    Lynn Swann was like Mikhail Baryshnikov on a football field. He was an artist in pads and cleats and has the rings to show for it. As for his politics...not so much.

    Parent
    Nicely said. (none / 0) (#106)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 06:14:11 PM EST


    Parent
    Even I have to admit... (none / 0) (#109)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 06:33:14 PM EST
    He's Lynn friggin Swann

    Parent
    I remember. And so does my son (none / 0) (#98)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:16:14 PM EST
    only in his late 20s, because Swan was featured in a Madden video football game or something.  

    Swan's ability was a thing of beauty to behold.  And as I recall, he was/is a smart, nice guy, too.

    Parent

    Yep, and they always finish last. (none / 0) (#99)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:32:37 PM EST
    Just ask CoralGables...

    Parent
    First, I'll ask my son (none / 0) (#103)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 05:44:48 PM EST
    if he's ever heard the guy called "Lynn Friggin' Swan!" (That cracked me up.)  In my son's generation, he probably was known as "Lynn Dudin' Swan" -- as for years, I marveled at the ability to turn the noun "dude" into a verb, adjective, and just about everything else.  I.e., "Dude, we're dudin' outa here, headin' to that dudish movie."

    Parent
    Cream City (none / 0) (#108)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 06:31:26 PM EST
    In the post on Republicans endorsing Obama you had a comment that gave a link to P. Cronin's final report. I just went to grab that link, but your comment in that thread has vanished. Would you please put up the link again?

    Parent
    Jeez, I linked to a site that loves Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Cream City on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 07:01:24 PM EST
    and TL, but TChris deletes it?  The internecine complications here are getting to be too much work.  So I'm not going to go through all that linking process twice, just to be deleted again.

    Just search archives here for peniel, and posts with links will come up.

    Parent

    a thing of beauty (none / 0) (#113)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 07:07:44 PM EST
    on the football field....

    Parent
    He was special.... (none / 0) (#122)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 08:48:25 AM EST
    and Stallworth on the other side wasn't too shabby either.  And Franco and Terry and the Steel Curtain...what a team, what a team.

    Parent
    NYCity council waives terms limits (none / 0) (#105)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 06:07:29 PM EST
    Bloomberg gets to run again.  I am not a fan of term limits and hope this is the beginning of the end.  In California they should have a straight forward effort to end term limits and not mess around with these ridiculous complicated attempts the public views with suspicion.

    I love term limits. (none / 0) (#107)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 06:15:57 PM EST
    I think they're one of the cornerstones of our democracy.

    Parent
    Palin on abortion bombings (none / 0) (#114)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 07:51:36 PM EST
    here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27347418#27347418

    she will not only not call them terrorists, listen to the end of her answer when she says lumps Ayers in with anyone that would want to hurt innocent americans.

    So if you bomb an abortion clinic you are not trying to kill "innocent" americans?

    "innocent lives" (none / 0) (#119)
    by Fabian on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 04:58:46 AM EST
    is a standard "pro-life" rhetoric.  It allows them to advocate against abortion (innocent) and for the death penalty and wars (presumably guilty).

    True Pro Life doctrine is against all killing, ever.  Abortion, death penalty, war and euthanasia are equally unacceptable.

    Every time you hear about innocent anything and it isn't related to a legal verdict, there's always the assumption that there are "guilty" parties out there that deserve their fate.

    I prefer never using the term "innocent" unless it is relevant.  Not "innocent civilians killed", just plain "civilians killed".

    I'm sure some people have fallen into the habit of using "innocent" unintentionally, but to me it always signals black and white thinking, an assumption of innocence and guilt, a righteous prejudgment.

    Parent

    Drama based on George Packard article on Iraqi (none / 0) (#117)
    by jawbone on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 10:14:25 PM EST
    interpreters (and other workers) for the Americans--and how they were mostly abandoned.

    Fantastic Off-Broadway play was broadcast tonight on local PBS NYC area--Betrayed, by George Packard, a drama based on his iterviews and article about Iraqis who worked for the Americans and then were abandoned to their fates.

    Rebroadcast NYC area on Sunday: Ch. 13, Noon, and 10PM on WLIW, Long Island's Public TV station.

    I hate the ambassador. It's well-written, well-acted, very moving. To tears and to anger.

    Video clips available and links to review, more.

    I have no idea if this is being broadcast PBS-wide. Butk oh my, it is very good.

    Thursday Afternoon Open Thread | 122 comments (122 topical)

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