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Obama-McCain Post-Debate Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:28:00 AM EST
Tags: Barack Obama, John McCain, debates, 2008 (all tags)
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Did McCain catch up? I found him incredibly unappealing. He seems like a very small man, in all respects.

He played to his radical right base. He knows that getting out their vote is the only way he can win, since he has lost with independents and all other women outside the base.

I'd bet even Joe the Plumber is voting for Obama.

Update: The CNN focus group of undecided voters in Ohio say Obama won and three decided to vote for him tonight. Ayers didn't resonate with the group.

< "Joe the Plumber" Compares Obama to Sammy Davis, Jr. | Describing McCain >

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    Obama-McCain Post-Debate Thread | 154 comments (154 topical)

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    My takeaway? (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:32:18 PM EST
    "Joe, you're rich!  Congratulations!"

    As a person (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:46:37 PM EST
    who has owned several small businesses I can relate to Joe about not wanting my taxes raised in this economy. Say what you want but McCain made a good point about that and any honest person would have to agree with him.

    Parent
    I can relate (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:48:57 PM EST
    to not wanting my taxes raised too.  But that doesn't make it a good idea.  And it doesn't change the fact that that is an awful soundbite.

    Parent
    I'm talking about (2.00 / 0) (#66)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:00:23 PM EST
    job creation not sound bites.

    Parent
    You wrote a sound bite (5.00 / 0) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:11:19 PM EST
    WTF are you talking about?

    Parent
    Job creation (none / 0) (#129)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:36:08 PM EST


    Parent
    I've owned two businesses (5.00 / 0) (#136)
    by shoephone on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:45:42 PM EST
    McCain proved tonight that he knows nothing about what it means to own and run a small business and he is a charlatan on the issue of health care.

    Parent
    Sure (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:49:43 PM EST
    no one wants THEIR TAXES raised.

    What's your point?

    Parent

    Exacty what I said (2.00 / 0) (#64)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:58:15 PM EST
    McCain made a good point for not raising taxes on small businesses that even Obama agrees is the engine of our economy. Notice that was one thing Obama didn't have a decent comeback for?

    If you tax me more when the economy is already down there is no way I can employ the amount of people I'd like to. Higher taxes during down times is  counter productive to job creation. I guess you would have to be a business owner with the responsibility of fixed overhead to understand.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:10:47 PM EST
    I am a business owner of sorts - but you probably do not think so - cuz lawyers are EVIL!!!!!

    Parent
    Easy fellas.... (none / 0) (#95)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:18:53 PM EST
    cut both your taxes, cut a trillion in spending (Iraq/Afghanistan/DEA/NSA/HSA/ICE and more), fund job creation, energy development, even health care instead.

    Everybody's happy!

    Parent

    Do you employ (none / 0) (#130)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:39:32 PM EST
    other lawyers, secretaries, pay overhead, advertise?

    Parent
    The myth about taxes (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by koshembos on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:14:55 PM EST
    These comments are a result of the brain washing this country has went through since Reagan and his movie monkey. Clinton raise taxes on the rich when the first Bush buried us. The result was affluence unbounded.

    Obama gets his tax advise from Warren Buffet, Robert Rubin and Larry Summers. I guess Warren doesn't have clue; McCain knows better.

    Hide guys, it's ridiculous.

    Parent

    If you've owned several businesses. . . (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:51:54 PM EST
    each earning profits of 250K a year, good for you.  And you can afford a tax increase.

    Parent
    Having owned a small business (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Coral on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:18:53 PM EST
    I have serious doubts about whether Joe the plumber will really show a net profit of $250,000 plus. There are so many write-offs and expenses available that he would be doing very well indeed.

    Everytime Joe the plumber was brought up this week, I've wanted someone to pull out the profit/loss report of that business and the tax returns.

    Parent

    Nice to tell me what I can (2.00 / 0) (#72)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:02:56 PM EST
    afford when you know nothing about my business. I'll take your comment as unknowing boilerplate rhetoric.

    Parent
    You just told me. . . (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:04:44 PM EST
    your business is reporting 250K plus in profits.

    Parent
    Is there a point (none / 0) (#106)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:24:17 PM EST
    you are trying to make?

    Parent
    Yes, my point. . . (5.00 / 0) (#118)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:29:51 PM EST
    is that I do know something about your business, which is that after expenses, salaries, COGS, tooling, etc you are reporting a profit in excess of a quarter million dollars a year.

    And you feel that at 250K plus, you want a tax cut -- or at least, no increase.

    Parent

    My point is (none / 0) (#138)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:47:40 PM EST
    I already pay a lot in taxes, federal and state, and lots in fees.

    My point is that if I have to pay more then I will shrink my business as a result, not invest the extra amount I'm taxed on my business, and therefore create less jobs. If having small businesses crate less jobs then you get what you hope for.

    BTW I noticed you skipped right over you fallacy that I don't pay taxes on what I reinvest in my business. You really don't know that much about business at all or you would have not made that fundamental error. Gees give a person like you a little very elementary knowledge that business have expenses and all of a sudden they are experts and tax experts. LOL

    Parent

    So if you had $500K profit (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:09:55 PM EST
    could you pay more taxes in order to support the economy in other ways that would redound to your benefit or are you opposed to taxes period?

    Because "unknowing boilerplate rhetoric" sounds like Republican boilerplate to me.....

    Parent

    First of all I am a lifelong (none / 0) (#101)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:21:34 PM EST
    Democrat. A fiscally conservative one though who believes is social programs and social saftey nets.

    As for your $500K, you can't just toss numbers around as every type or business is different in many respects that would be too complicated to go into here.

    500K is not a lot of money if you are growing your business by reinvesting some of it back into the business. And by growing a business you create new jobs which is what most of you are missing here. More taxes = less jobs. Less jobs = less people who pay taxes. Less people who pay taxes = less tax revenue. Simple.

    Parent

    How does the credit crisis affect (none / 0) (#111)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:26:40 PM EST
    your business?

    Parent
    It doesn't affect my ability to borrow (none / 0) (#143)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:56:25 PM EST
    because I don't borrow. I'm fiscally conservative remember. It can affect my business due to my customers inability to borrow though.

    Add to that inability higher tax rates and I will most likely tighten my belt, cease hiring, and even layoff some people to ride out the storm. So will a lot of other business. In other words people will lose their jobs (some already are) and hiring will freeze up (which has already started). Additionally you won't see people in this climate starting new businesses and creating new jobs.

    If the goal is for the unemployment rate to go up raising taxes is a good way to speed that up.

    Parent

    Selling the tax increases (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:57:34 PM EST
    will be job 1 in the Obama administration.  It has to be done.

    Parent
    "Job" is the keyword in your post (2.00 / 0) (#87)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:13:03 PM EST
    If you tax me too much then I have less to invest in my business to help grow us out of the mess we are in.

    If I invest less I employ less.

    If I employ less My taxable profit is less.

    If my taxable profit is less I probably pay the same amount dollar amount of taxes at the higher rate but on less volume and less employees.

    So in the end I won't pay more dollars in taxes but I will not employ as many people who will not pay taxes because they are not working.

    As you can see too high of taxes on small businesses can be counter productive. the government doesn't get more actual; tax dollars from me and in the bargain they put people out of work. That makes no sense.

    What makes sense is to leverage small businesses so they employ as many people as possible who then pay taxes. Employment is how the government can raise revenues.


    Parent

    You do not pay taxes. . . (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:17:23 PM EST
    on the money you invest in your business (except for certain capital items that are ammortized), or the salaries you pay.  Indeed, you can substantially reduce your tax burden by hiring more people and showing less profit.

    Plus, Obama has proposed a tax credit for every new employee you hire.

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#115)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:27:44 PM EST
    You know nothing about owning a business. If I only reinvest every few years then the money I reinvest has already been taxed as profit in previous years. Why don't you stick to arguing something you know about?

    Parent
    Why would you only reinvest (none / 0) (#120)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:30:46 PM EST
    every few years?

    Parent
    Controlled growth is one reason (2.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:02:45 PM EST
    Equipment does not have to be replaced every year is another. The economy and the opportunities or lack of that present themselves is another.

    You ask a lot of questions. If you are that interested in business I'd suggest you go take a class or get a book on the subject. Even if you never want to start a business it is good to know how business works and how business owners are forced to think to survive and grow and prosper.

    Parent

    Yep. (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Realleft on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:07:37 AM EST
    I imagine those employees you lay off will enjoy their ability to now afford college and stop working for an angry employer who thinks he supplies them their livelihood when he's profiting off their work.  

    P.S. - You've never heard of depreciation?

    Parent

    The things that come out (none / 0) (#156)
    by Pepe on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:50:23 AM EST
    of clueless peoples mouths.

    Parent
    Lot of entrepreneurs in my family (none / 0) (#147)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:09:03 PM EST
    but it never appealed to me.

    Though as a kid I held carnivals in our driveway and bilked all the neighborhood kids out of their pennies with my carnival games.....

    I was terribly embarrassed when their moms came over and acted like I was some horrible creature....

    Now many of my cousins have done that for real on Wall Street, medical research, PR companies, etc.

    I'm ready to write poetry instead.

    Parent

    Then I'm curious (none / 0) (#157)
    by Pepe on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:54:17 AM EST
    Why all the questions?

    Parent
    "Don't tax me; tax my employees!" (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:17:54 PM EST
    Yup, a Republican.

    Parent
    Can you guys convinve me... (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:33:58 PM EST
    how the government will spend the money more effectively than the business owner?  I don't see it.

    Not long ago I was right there with you...till it dawned on me that we tax the rich and fund wars of all kinds, build bombs, build prisons.  

    I think it is righteous to demand the state cut that sh*t out before we ask people to pay the taxes their paying, or accept an increase...across the board.

    Not to mention it is basically theft, no matter how necessary for the common good.  "Pay me "x" or I'll put you in a cage or kill you trying" is theft...no matter how you slice it.

    Parent

    School, roads, and hospitals (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:40:25 PM EST
    are not theft.

    When you house catches on fire, taxes pay to put it out. Or would you prefer private fire companies?

    Parent

    Allright... (5.00 / 0) (#140)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:53:18 PM EST
    now you're talking undisputable common good...most if not all of fire/police/schools/roads/health clinics is or can be funded by city/county/state taxes.

    What about the feds?  Defense (which can be cut drastically while maintaining essential securtiy imo), a safety net to keep the sick/old/disabled from starving, standards enforcement for food/drugs/goods/workplace/etc, investment in infrastructure and energy and we're just about done right?  We can fund all that on a fraction, maybe even abolish the income tax.

    Parent

    Well, we spend it like that (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:40:46 PM EST
    under Republicans......

    Parent
    More drastically.... (none / 0) (#142)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:55:21 PM EST
    yes, but Clinton and the Dems are/were no prize.  

    Check out Clinton's drug war record..not pretty.

    Parent

    Yeah right (none / 0) (#119)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:30:08 PM EST
    all small business owners are Republicans. <rolls eyes>

    Parent
    Does McCain's, then, sit better with you? (none / 0) (#122)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:32:52 PM EST
    Except, of course, that his main objective is lowering taxes on huge corporations and rich folks?

    Parent
    I don't like either (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:05:13 PM EST
    choice we have this election.

    Parent
    Hey, I said it was a hard sell (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:22:00 PM EST
    Sounds like a job for Hillary.

    Parent
    Well having (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by Pepe on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:33:19 PM EST
    studied both Obama an Hillary I would agree that she is far more versed in business and the needs of business owners and job creation than Obama is, which is why I supported her.

    Parent
    Joe Seems Like a Plant (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Jade Jordan on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:04:44 PM EST
    He wants to buy a business for 270K+ and assumes he will make more than 250,000 per year.  Seems strange that someone would sell such a consistent high grossing business for so little.

    He assumes his income stream would be the same when he owned it as the previous owner, that is not a safe assumption.

    I'm suspicious he was a plant because the numbers he used fit too closely to Obama's tax cut off numbers.

    I would have felt better if he already owned the business and knew what his gross income would actually be rather than use a theoretical.

    Parent

    Good answer (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:10:45 PM EST
    from Obama would have been to explain graduated tax rates -- no one's raising taxes on all $250k+ -- or has tax code changed while I'm working on midterms/??

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#114)
    by robrecht on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:27:28 PM EST
    Obama actually did make that point in the actual conversation with Joe (Youtube has it) and, yes, he could have been stronger tonight.  It will be interesting in 4 years when some network interviews him to find out how he's done with Obama in charge.  

    Parent
    Taxes= roads and infrastructure (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by samtaylor2 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:34:01 PM EST
    Maybe we need to start realizing that the roads that allow Joe to get to work don't build themselves.  

    Parent
    McCain does look like (none / 0) (#26)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:43:42 PM EST
    the Monopoly guy.

    Parent
    Too bad we're out of (none / 0) (#36)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:47:00 PM EST
    "get out of jail free" cards

    See, Bush could not only ruin the economy, but a game based on the economy.

    Parent

    I called it at 8:54. . . (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:33:12 PM EST
    for Obama, and I'm sticking with it.

    blood shot eyes (5.00 / 0) (#3)
    by white n az on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:33:42 PM EST
    snorting in the background at some of things that Obama was saying

    Though I'm only a long stones throw... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:57:59 PM EST
    from Hofstra, I did not chill with John McCain before the debate:)

    Parent
    My takeaway? (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by shoulin4 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:33:53 PM EST
    "Zero?"

    and that McCain during this whole debate came off as fake, mean, rude, cranky, confused, incoherent, and the living incarnate of the Cheshire Cat. Thank God this is all over.

    Cheshire cat (none / 0) (#116)
    by Coral on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:28:46 PM EST
    Yeah, that smile is really creepy. Like something in a horror flick.

    Parent
    The smile (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 01:38:25 AM EST
    It's a cross between Jack Nicholson in "The Shining" and Chucky

    Parent
    Just in time for Halloween! (none / 0) (#139)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:50:04 PM EST


    Parent
    Aww, come on patriotgames, (none / 0) (#158)
    by shoulin4 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:17:58 AM EST
    Am I really a troll?

    Parent
    "I found him incredibly unappealing" (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Finis Terrae on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:34:30 PM EST
    Me too.

    McCain didn't do what he needed to (5.00 / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:35:03 PM EST


    My feeling since the summer. . . (5.00 / 0) (#8)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:35:33 PM EST
    has always been that a side-by-side comparison of McCain and Obama would always favor Obama -- in terms of demeanor, knowledge, appearance, youth, height, voice.

    I agree with all you said (none / 0) (#76)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:04:01 PM EST
    except the height part, I'm under 5 feet.

    Parent
    Lord (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:35:58 PM EST
    the pundits on CNN look like they're in the chow line.  

    Ooops (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:36:24 PM EST
    Everyone agrees that McCain started good, lost it in the middle and blew it the rest of the way.

    Gergen on CNN gets it just right imo.

    Agreed (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by coigue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:37:43 PM EST
    Bill Bennett has GOP colored glasses. It's going to hurt bad for him on Nov 5

    Parent
    BTW (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:45:50 PM EST
    The most important substantive moment was McCain inadvertently admitting he has a litmus test for judges, if you support Roe, you are disqualified.

    Parent
    I noticed that as well. (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by Finis Terrae on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:58:10 PM EST
    Obama's smile said it all.

    Parent
    yes. and so did (none / 0) (#110)
    by coigue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:26:14 PM EST
    Mccain's very substantial gulp while talking about the subject

    Parent
    McCain didn't tell us who he is going (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Radiowalla on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:37:16 PM EST
    to lock up when abortion becomes illegal.

    Did I hear McCain say the a Women's Health (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by samtaylor2 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:58:38 PM EST
    Is a radical far left issue?  Was that a goof?  Is that his position?

    Parent
    He said. . . (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:00:35 PM EST
    that the exception for the mother's health in some anti-choice legislation represents the position of the "extreme pro-Abortion movement".

    Parent
    Yes, he'd prefer the mother die, apparently. (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:01:33 PM EST


    Parent
    This must make a commercial (none / 0) (#78)
    by samtaylor2 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:04:32 PM EST
    This is huge (I think??).

    Parent
    Like "feeling blue"? Sorry, but that's (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Teresa on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:04:11 PM EST
    what I was thinking in that whole conversation. It can be spun either way by both of them (though obviously Obama is better over all).

    Parent
    McCain was more aggressive... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by lucky leftie on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:37:19 PM EST
    more confrontational, but Obama is unflappable.  McCain was so annoying at times, I think I would have lunged across the table at him if I was in Obama's shoes.  

    I think this was McCain's best debate; I don't think it was enough to change the course of the race.  

    Unflappable. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:41:23 PM EST
    Good word, and describes Obama to a "T" (except for the flappy ears).  He's unflappable and that's an outstanding electoral (and governing) characteristic.

    Parent
    Except when (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:14:24 PM EST
    ....debating Hillary.
    Remember unflappable JFK when he first met Khruschev (sp?)  
    I'd say Obama is unflappable when he does not feel intimidated by opponent, which, for Obama, is a rare occasion.

    Speaking of Hillary --- anyone see her -- who was she sitting with?

    Parent

    Hillary would have... (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by lucky leftie on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:24:40 PM EST
    ...mopped the floor with McCain.  No one in either party could match her command of the issues.  Apparently she was on CNN a little while ago.  I didn''t see it but I heard she was pitch-perfect.  

    Parent
    McCain had so many smirks, sighs, snorts (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by byteb on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:42:49 PM EST
    and bug eyes that he reminded me of my sons when they were eight years old.

    Parent
    I would like to see Howard Dean like yell (none / 0) (#31)
    by samtaylor2 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:46:00 PM EST
    Video of McCain's snorts.  

    Parent
    Wow, if this was his best (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by TomStewart on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:46:32 PM EST
    then it's pretty pathetic all around. I can't imagine that McCain's supporters are feeling any better after tonight, watching their man display the worst of the current republican party, waving his anger like a, well, 'white flag of surrender'. He tried, but his anger and sense of entitlement got the best of him, pulling him down into sarcasm and bitterness. It's really a shame to see him fall apart like, but it's seems to be doing Obama a world of good.

    Parent
    I gotta (5.00 / 0) (#17)
    by kmblue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:39:10 PM EST
    check out Tweety!

    Don't do it!!! (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:40:25 PM EST
    OK, I tried to talk you off the ledge....

    Parent
    They are broadcasting (none / 0) (#22)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:41:54 PM EST
    in front of some weird ironic audience?  I do not understand what is going on over at MSNBC.

    Parent
    Tweety (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by kmblue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:42:17 PM EST
    gives it "narrowly" to Obama.  What a surprise!

    Andrea Mitchell (isn't she married to Greenspan?)
    gives it to McCain.

    So the pundits think McCain had a good debate (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:42:43 PM EST
    Too bad, he'll still lose. He's Johnny McNasty.

    Stephanopolous said it was McCain's best (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:44:18 PM EST
    I think that comes under the category of damning with faint praise.

    Parent
    Really?? I thought he was amazingly (none / 0) (#29)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:45:41 PM EST
    bad. I thought the town hall debate was really awful for McCain, but this was the worst Presidential debate performance I've ever seen, by a mile.

    Parent
    No....really? (5.00 / 4) (#39)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:48:54 PM EST
    I thought Bush was worse, at least 2 or 3 different times....

    But it doesn't matter.

    Parent

    In terms of demeanor? McCain's (5.00 / 0) (#99)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:20:53 PM EST
    face was just out of control.

    Parent
    OMG yes (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:25:36 PM EST
    Go watch the old video for what Bush was like before he got the smirk more under control.  McCain looks like a stone mask in comparison.

    Parent
    But Bush wasn't making (none / 0) (#124)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:33:11 PM EST
    inappropriate faces as much as McCain, IMO.
    McCain's expressions were just bizarre.
    Anyway, McCain was just horrible.


    Parent
    What's Donna Brazile doing on ABC? (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:46:12 PM EST
    Switch goes my remote.

    I have never been angrier at McCain (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by CST on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:47:07 PM EST
    I have no idea if that means he did a good job or a bad job.  He might've been trying to make me -northeast-liberal-educated-"elitist"-female angry.  If so, he succeeded.

    I feel sorry for McCain (none / 0) (#97)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:19:21 PM EST
    (yes, I'm the original bleeding heart) -
    he's so destroyed his prior good tradename...
    there's really nothing left now of the maverick

    What in heck is he thinking?  He's got to know the RNC is now putting its money in places to help Congressional candidates.  Why is he catering to their non-sense.  He might have been able to earn some brownie points tonight for his correcting supporters saying bad/incorrect things about Obama -- could have done something similar to what Obama did with questions on Palin.  By the way, Obama's comments on Palin come straight from Bill.  Heard Bill say these things shortly after she was nominated.

    Parent

    The only thing. . . (5.00 / 0) (#105)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:24:16 PM EST
    that's destroyed McCain is a good, hard look at his personality and policies.

    Parent
    his the sale on his soul was final (none / 0) (#117)
    by coigue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:29:14 PM EST
    when he voted to Ok torture.

    Parent
    I thought Obama's best moment (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:48:14 PM EST
    was when he listed the other people who served on the board with Ayers.

    Yes, that was perfect. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:49:21 PM EST


    Parent
    These people on the focus group (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:48:56 PM EST
    are unquestionably quite stupid.

    Meet the American electorate. (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:50:43 PM EST


    Parent
    What, you think (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by kmblue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:52:07 PM EST
    the pundits are better? ;)

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:52:19 PM EST


    Parent
    I thought (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by shoulin4 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:55:25 PM EST
    I was the only one thinking this.

    Parent
    Elitist, (none / 0) (#98)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:19:52 PM EST
    are we?

    Parent
    And proud (none / 0) (#104)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:24:12 PM EST


    Parent
    Heard most of it on the radio... (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:49:09 PM EST
    same old sh*t...alotta talking without saying much.  Obama's bullsh*t is much more palatable, to be sure.

    Too bad Ralph, Bob, and Cynthia weren't invited, that's what I kept thinking.  You know how these two fools are gonna answer (or should I say non-answer) before they open their mouths...lame.

    I don't believe... (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:50:26 PM EST
    I don't believe either of them have a health care plan that will benefit all or even most Americans.

    I also don't believe that either of them can give the tax cuts they say they will - not with our gigantic budget deficit.

    Clinton campaigned on tax cuts - but began the process of balancing the budget by increasing taxes instead. I think that will have to be the road we travel this time as well.

    Health care question.... (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Teresa on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:56:21 PM EST
    when Obama says, if you have health care with your employer, you can keep it. Does that mean you have to keep it? I do and it is awful. It is $750 a month with high deductibles, high co-pays, 12 month pre-existing clause, etc. Can I switch or am I stuck?

    Parent
    Raising taxes in the middle (4.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Coral on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:26:52 PM EST
    of a deep recession or depression is a recipe for disaster. The economy needs stimulus.

    Actually, I'd prefer to see an infrastructure and energy program that would stimulate business/jobs here in the US.

    Giving people a few extra bucks in their pockets by cutting taxes helps a bit, but many of those bucks end up going for consumer items that are produced overseas.

    Parent

    good night irene (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:51:21 PM EST
    what a disaster for mccain

    If I hear (or see) another Joe the Plumber crack (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jerry on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:54:49 PM EST


    Take my advice. (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:55:49 PM EST
    I strongly urge you not to watch Saturday Night Live this week.

    Parent
    HRC (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by shoulin4 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:56:29 PM EST
    on CNN with Wolf.

    NYT (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:00:33 PM EST
    says McCain put Obama on the defensive (well, "repeatedly tried to put Senator Barack Obama on the defensive"), but it was McCain who sounded defensive on every issue to me.  

    ooooo, Hillary...

    Turnoffs. (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by mutatio on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:02:23 PM EST
    McCain's heavy breathing/snorting in the background and his incessant lizard licks of the lips. Don't get me started on his policies. ;-)

    Turnoffs. (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by mutatio on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:02:48 PM EST
    McCain's heavy breathing/snorting in the background and his incessant lizard licks of the lips. Don't get me started on his policies. ;-)

    58 to 31 (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Lil on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:03:09 PM EST
    Thank you, God

    Just wanted to say (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:03:19 PM EST
    It has been a pleasure watching 20+ debates with you all.  OK, maybe pleasure is a stretch, but you made it more fun ;-)

    Thank you Jeralyn, BTD, TChris and TLkid (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:05:22 PM EST
    also.  I know we have our squabbles, but you do a great job.

    Parent
    I love TLkid's comments. He is so (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by Teresa on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:10:09 PM EST
    well grounded and objective.

    Parent
    Thanks to you for hanging with us (none / 0) (#153)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 01:29:52 AM EST
    during the debates. The TL kid, who is not a blogger, really loved doing them. Of course I'm biased, but I also think he added good substantive comments to the conversation. He noticed things I missed because I was typing and listening more than watching. He seemed to be able to do all three. Thanks for mentioning him, he'll be very flattered to read your comment.

    Parent
    CNN polls in and Obama wins! (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by byteb on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:03:48 PM EST


    I was in the car for this part (5.00 / 0) (#96)
    by akaEloise on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:19:11 PM EST
    listening on NPR, so maybe it got mentioned in the live thread -- but the most telling moment for me was a tiny detail, when McCain was talking about vouchers and said something like "Everyone should have the same choices that Cindy and I and you and...your wife have".  It seemed like he either blanked on Michelle Obama's name or he just loathes them both so much he couldn't bear to speak her name.  I'm not sure which, but neither one is endearing.  

    I noticed that too (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:25:08 PM EST
    McCain fails at politics 101.

    Parent
    Rick Davis, McCain campaign mgr, on CNN (5.00 / 0) (#100)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:21:32 PM EST
    saying Obama doesn't understand his own record on abortion....

    Well, I don't quite understand it (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Cream City on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:31:59 PM EST
    either.  Ever since that "babies are punishments" line, I've been listening closely, and he's all over the place, bringing in spouses and pastors and whoknowswhat.  I find it fascinating that a law prof can't just say, "hey, my job as president would be to uphold the law -- and to pick people for the high court who would do so, too."  Period.

    Parent
    No grace (5.00 / 0) (#126)
    by pixpixpix on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:33:56 PM EST
    At no point have we seen a grace note from McCain. When dealing with the negativism of the campaign, it would not have killed him to seem genuinely horrified at calls for violence rather than offended that anyone dare criticize him or some of his supporters. Or to wish Obama well. It's this lack of generosity of spirit that he lacks and that people want in a president.

    Sully

    Who cares what he thinks? Turn that (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Teresa on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:40:09 PM EST
    statement around on him for the primaries (not that Obama supporters threatened violence toward Hillary but they implied strongly that she did toward him).

    Parent
    the candidate (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by pixpixpix on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:00:33 AM EST
    I am juts talking about McCain's attitude and the observation seems apt.

    McCain shows no graciousness. Never has and he can't hide it.

    Parent

    hilary's economy (1.00 / 1) (#137)
    by gina51 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:46:28 PM EST
    did anyone catch when mcCain mentioned Hilary's econmic plan? He phoned her today and asked about her financial plan and she shared it. Way to go Hil....

    Not true. Wolf asked her and she said it (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Teresa on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:07:05 PM EST
    was several weeks ago and she didn't say what they discussed. She went straight on to explain Obama's positions.

    Parent
    Bennett says (none / 0) (#7)
    by kmblue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:35:15 PM EST
    McCain won!

    Bennett's a moron. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:36:47 PM EST


    Parent
    From the previous thread (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by ding7777 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:41:52 PM EST
    1.  n/t  
     An abbreviation commonly used in email and on internet bulletin boards and web-groups for "no text" or "note topic." This abbreviation is used when the subject line of a forum or email based post states all or a majority of what a writer desires to say.



    Parent
    Thank you! (none / 0) (#52)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:54:48 PM EST


    Parent
    Castellanos won't sell out! (none / 0) (#16)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:38:11 PM EST
    He's a believer!  McCain spoke with eloquence.

    God, he's been on TV for 20 years (none / 0) (#18)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:39:33 PM EST
    already and he is still in the running.  There are a whole boatload of reasons for not voting for McCain - not sure that is one of them.

    Bite getting play (none / 0) (#28)
    by kmblue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:44:31 PM EST
    McCain saying he's not Bush.

    Yes, but is that good for McCain? (none / 0) (#34)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:46:36 PM EST


    Parent
    Focus Group! (none / 0) (#44)
    by kmblue on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 09:49:28 PM EST
    in Kansas City Mo.

    msnbc:  Ayers attack backfired.

    OK, can I have a ruling? (none / 0) (#90)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:15:17 PM EST
    Who is more stupid, Charlie Gibson or John King? I've been trying to figure it out for a year, and I just can't do it.

    Dana Bash King? (5.00 / 0) (#91)
    by Teresa on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:16:58 PM EST


    Parent
    LOL, n/t! (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:22:16 PM EST


    Parent
    I think she has been auditioning for (none / 0) (#113)
    by Teresa on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:27:18 PM EST
    McCain's press secretary. All of her comments seem to come straight from his campaign.

    Parent
    john king (none / 0) (#150)
    by sancho on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:10:38 PM EST
    is more stupid but i cant prove it and it is a tough call. just to be compared to either of them is quite an achievement.

    Parent
    electoral vote (none / 0) (#123)
    by Latinmusic on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:33:05 PM EST
    When Borack Obama had 264 electoral votes all he needed was to win one state. Now he has 277. IT'S DONE! Borack Obama is our next President.  

    joe the plumber (none / 0) (#131)
    by gina51 on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:40:01 PM EST
    Joe the plumber phoned fox news and he's voting for McCain. So much for his 15 minutes of fame...

    Joe blew it. He could have been a star. (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Teresa on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:41:48 PM EST
    Like finding Waldo...who is Joe voting for? He so blew it.

    Parent
    Woman on CNN (none / 0) (#141)
    by sallywally on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:54:26 PM EST
    says debates are not game-changers anyway......

    Same woman who last time said we should not conserve gasoline because it left more has for the "bad" countries.....I forget her name.

    Debates don't have much direct impact (5.00 / 0) (#148)
    by Cream City on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:09:12 PM EST
    For example, see this link.  And if this or several other blogs I've followed tonight and on other debate nights are indicative,
    people came with their minds made up and didn't change them.  (Thank heavens, of course, that blogs probably have even less impact than debates.:-)

    I think studies of debate impact may downplay the indirect impact of what the media drones decide and keep buzzing at each other about, though -- at least in past.  A classic example is the 1960 debate.  Immediately afterward, political observers gave it to Nixon.  But as the buzz got going, it shifted to giving it to JFK.

    Then again, I think that this year, more and more of we-the-people listen to media -- all of them, from cable nets to blogs on the 'Net -- less and less.  The fragile veil has been shredded that once allowed at least a pretense at objectivity and serving their role per the classic libertarian theory of democracy.  Instead, media have made their agendas so apparent that they may have become just a lot of background noise . . . like the 20-somethingth debate.  Or just about any since the 15th or so, since the primaries.

    Parent

    I am reading over (none / 0) (#149)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:09:53 PM EST
    NYT's liveblog.  Not so live - the entire discussion about healthcare is completely absent from their account.  They are enamored with the one liners and the negative campaigning aspects of the debate.

    Really disappointing.  You all are much better!

    I just have to say (none / 0) (#155)
    by patriotgames on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 02:32:45 AM EST
    A LOT of people here are going to be mighty surprised  Nov. 5th.

    Obama-McCain Post-Debate Thread | 154 comments (154 topical)

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