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Bush's Iraq Speech: Open Thread

Update: Here is the text (html) of President Bush's speech.

****

President Bush will be addressing the nation on Iraq tonight at 9pm ET. Here's a preview of what he is going to say.

There are 168,000 troops currently in Iraq. His plan to bring some home will leave us at about the same level as in January, before the "surge."

That's not a withdrawal plan either party should accept. As for responses by the Democratic candidates:

Hillary Clinton sent this letter to Bush.

What you are planning to tell the American people tomorrow night is that one year from now, there will be the same number of troops in Iraq as there were one year ago. Mr. President, that is simply too little too late, and unacceptable to this Congress, and to the American people who have made clear their strong desire to bring our troops home, and end this war.

John Edwards will have a two minute ad on MSNBC on the inadequacy of Bush's Iraq plan following the speech. Excerpts from the ad are here.

More...

I'm not heartened by Obama saying today that Congress doesn't have the votes to force a withdrawal and instead will focus on a cap for the number of deployed troops.

I'm not sure if Big Tent Democrat is on hand to continue this thread by live-blogging the speech, but either way, you are all free to live-blog or put your reactions in the comments.

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  • Display: Sort:
    I'm going to say it (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by manys on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 08:19:40 PM EST
    Barack Obama is a wimp. I don't say this to be mean, it's just that his entire campaign is predicated on what he will do in a year and a half, not what he would do now. If any of the leading contenders feel the wimp factor, it's him. He doesn't sound like it, but take the booming voice away and there's not a lot of substance. I'm not sure if this is intentional, but I'm not buying it either way.

    RE: Obama... (none / 0) (#3)
    by bare ruined choirs on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 08:25:50 PM EST
    Im loathe to say it, but I agree with you. I have been an Edwards supporter for awhile now, but I have still had hope that Obama would be a good candidate. Recently my hope has been weakened by his rhetoric on the Congress' hope to stop this Rogue President. I hope to God that Edwards can pull off getting the nomination. Can't wait for his response.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama 08, it's inevitable, stop fighting it. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Aaron on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:20:47 PM EST
    What's that I smell coming from the Clinton camp, the unmistakable scent of fear.  

    Obama 08, new leadership for new century.  

    [ Parent ]

    I Agree (none / 0) (#7)
    by aj12754 on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:01:01 PM EST
    ...but he only is one of several "not-ready-for-prime-time candidates...of course Fred Thompson blows that field away.  His particular combination of unself-conscious ignorance and mindless platitudinizing really makes him stand out from the pack.

    [ Parent ]
    Amen (none / 0) (#13)
    by bare ruined choirs on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:14:13 PM EST
    Thompson is ridiculous and can hardly even keep up with his own positions. This is from George Will, a conservative for Christ's sake:
    Sean Hannity, who is no Torquemada conducting inquisitions of conservatives, asked Thompson: "When you look at the other current crop of candidates -- Republicans -- where is the distinction between your positions and what you view as theirs?" Thompson replied: "Well, to tell you the truth, I haven't spent a whole lot of time going into the details of their positions."

    He also is unfamiliar with the details of his own positions. Consider his confusion the next day when talk radio host Laura Ingraham asked him about something he ardently supported -- the McCain-Feingold expansion of government regulation of political speech. His rambling, incoherent explanation was just clear enough to be alarming about what he believes, misremembers and does not know [...]

    [ Parent ]

    Honestly.... (none / 0) (#32)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:38:10 AM EST
    the only thing I'm really looking forward to this campaign season will be watching Freddie in a debate. I know he will emnbarrass himself even against the other Republicans but I am still keeping my fingers crossed that we see have an opportuntity to see the "Bambi v. Godzilla" encounter between him and Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    BTW - Have noticed (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:25:52 AM EST
    This is from George Will, a conservative for Christ's sake:

    that Leftist have been criticizing their own candidates...

    Wonder if that's how George Will learned how, or if the Leftists learned from George Will..

    Oh well. Primaries, nominations, etc...

    [ Parent ]

    Are you insane? (none / 0) (#70)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 02:39:13 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    aj (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 03:33:45 PM EST
    Let me see. I point out that both parties have multiple candidates and both have supporters who attack each other...

    And you want to know if I am insance?

    Nope.

    Do you have any more examples of your intelligence you want to display??

    [ Parent ]

    oh well (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:58:59 PM EST
    what would be the point really ...you're doing a shtick here -- and it's become tiresome to me...peddle it elsewhere why don't you...I'm done.

    [ Parent ]
    Have you considered... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:21:56 AM EST
    that he's no wimp...just as corrupt as the rest of them?

    [ Parent ]
    Slightly OT but counterpoint to Bush (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 08:37:06 PM EST
    Dr. Dahlia Wasfi was one of the speakers at Socialism2007 June 14-17, 2007, Crowne Plaza Chicago O'Hare.

    Dr. Wasfi is a speaker and activist. Born in the United States to an American Jewish mother and an Iraqi Muslim father, she lived in Iraq as a child, returning to the U.S. at age 5. She graduated from Swarthmore College with a B.A. in Biology in 1993 and earned her medical degree from the University of Pennsylvania in 1997. Dr. Wasfi has made two trips to Iraq since the 2003 "Shock and Awe" invasion to visit her extended family. She returned from a three month stay in Basrah in March 2006. On April 27, 2006, she testified at a Congressional Forum to provide her eyewitness account of life in Iraq. Based on her experiences, Dr. Wasfi is speaking out in support of immediate, unconditional withdrawal of American forces from Iraq and the need to end the occupation "from the Nile to the Euphrates." Her website is Liberate This.

    ICH has the video of her speaking engagement in June here:

    This is strong, unapologetic, no holds barred, bareknuckle stuff. It is not for those who would rather not know about:

    Shortages; lack of electricity; potable water; tanks rolling through the streets night and day; gunfire and explosions. Iraqi health care in shambles. 200 bodies turn up daily in the Baghdad morgue. For Iraqis, it's 9/11 every day.


    I hope she heard (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 12:19:51 AM EST
    Bush's speech tonight. That way she'll know she's living in a democracy that can shine the light of freedom on the Arab world. Too bad about the raw sewage in the streets, but it's a small price to pay, at least as far as Rep.Boehner and his Bush-enabling ilk are concerned.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course things are miserable. (1.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 10:27:47 PM EST
    It is called "war."

    And tell your heroine to quit protesting those who are trying to help Iraq become a functioning democracy and start bad mouthing the terrorists and radicals who are busy killing other Iraqis. We will be gone in a heart beat when that happens.

    Is that "bare knuckle" enough? Now you gonna go speak some truth to power??

    Wow! Gosh! Bam! Zap! Look out Batman, here comes Edger and his keyboard commandos!!

    [ Parent ]

    Why we shouldn't go to war based on lies and hype (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by Ellie on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 11:46:18 PM EST
    It is called "war."

    Now why didn't this sink in years ago, when most of the world was warning against precisely what we're seeing now.

    Repeatedly and stubbornly, this war-bound administration and their bloodthirsty war pornographers didn't listen to virtually every expert -- military, policy (domestic and foreign), human rights and humanitarian groups, ecological groups and the voices of majorities in developed democracies and Iraq's neighbors who'd also be affected -- not to bomb while inspectors were completing their WMD report.

    Too bad the war-bound administration lied to Congress about the 911-Iraq connection and WMDs to get war powers that cronies always intended to use fraudulently to bomb, invade and occupy Iraq before the UNSC had a chance to vote on the issue.

    Too bad the jerks in the Republican Palace pretended it had no "choice" to conduct this multi-trillion dollar open-ended goatf*ck and historically unprecedented blunder.

    Too bad for the millions killed, maimed, displaced, impoverished and condemned to suffer for the political aspirations of a very few enriched and empowered by this atrocity.

    War, huh ...

    [ Parent ]

    You know... (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:04:35 AM EST
    Lay aside all of the blame. Forget that all of the intelligence communities thought Iraq had WMD. Forget that we know that Saddam was trying to get back into the WMD business. Ignore the fact that Iraq and al-Qaida had agreed to work together on a "enemy of my enemy is my friend basis." Try to ignore that the Left's protests have convinced the terrorists if they just keep killing Iraqi civilians and ambushing US troops that the Democratic party will give them a political victory as they did in Vietnam.

    Just sit there and attack the US.

    Forget about the attacks by Iraqis on other Iraqis by car bombs in shopping markets. Don't ask yourself why the terrorists want to terrorize their fellow citizens.

    Just sit there and attack the US.

    Don't think about Iran and Syria wanting to dominate Iraq. Forget about Iran's President vowing to destroy Israel.

    Just sit there and attack the US.

    I mean doing so will certainly increase the security of your fellow citizens, support the troops now fighting and save civilian lives in Iraq, Afghanistan and around the world. I mean you have been keeping up with Thailand haven't you?? Darfur?? Indonesia? Africa? Haven't you??

    And when you do get up, make sure it is to go to a protest that you are losing your rights... and don't think about the irony in that... and whatever you do, find every dictionary you can and black out the word "responsibility."

    [ Parent ]

    Factually incorrect of course (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:21:02 AM EST
    It is not true that all the intelligence agencies thought there were WMD in Iraq, nothwithstanding how you wish it so.

    Saddam wanted WMD? I want a million dollars! Your point?

    Iraq and Saddam hated each other. They were not working together. That's been debunked.

    When is it permissible for citizens to criticize their government Jim? And at what point do you and your ilk begin demanding imprisionment for those who do, labeling them traitors? Why do you want to be in the US, if you want it to be run by a tinhorn caudillo with visions of monarchy dancing in his head?

    The rest of your rant? Stale warmed over "stay the course in Vietnam" talking points.  

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    You forget that David Kay said he was trying (1.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:05:53 AM EST
    to get back in, and you want to forget that the man who had none, didn't want any and just looked forward to peace and love, well at least in many of those on the Left's mind did this.

    Mr Ekeus told Reuters news agency that he had passed the information to the Volcker Commission. "I told the Volcker people that Tariq [Aziz] said a couple of million was there if we report right. My answer was, 'That is not the way we do business in Sweden.' "

    A clean report from Mr Ekeus's inspectors would have been vital in lifting sanctions against Saddam's regime. But the inspectors never established what had happened to the regime's illicit weapons and never gave Iraq a clean bill of health.

    The news that Iraq attempted to bribe a top UN official is a key piece of evidence for investigators into the scandal surrounding the oil-for-food programme. It proves that Iraq was offering huge sums of cash to influential foreigners in return for political favours.

    Nope. Aint done a thing officer. All those guns in the back seat? Why nothing. Nothing at all.

    How about me giving you two million dollars since I was doing anything.

    hehe


    [ Parent ]

    When did this alleged offer take place? (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:32:54 AM EST
    Iraq had no WMD.  Even David Kay has said so. According to State of Denial, Kay was unimpressed with the evidence the Bushies claimed to have when he finally saw it and his investigation bore that out.

    This doesn't really help your original argument. Your attmept to lead down the rabbit hole, rather than stick to your original assertion has failed.

    The rest of your post is incoherent.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Molly B (1.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 11:37:22 AM EST
    Iraq was trying to get back into the WMD business.

    Even David Kay has said so.

    Read the link. The attemoted bribe shows intent.

    Watch out for those rabbit holes. A person could break their credibility.

    [ Parent ]

    Again I want a 1 million dollars (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 01:34:37 PM EST
    Your point?

    Wanting WMD and HAVING WMD are two different things.

    You DO understand the difference, I trust?

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Wanting something is the (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 03:27:00 PM EST
    first stage of getting somnething.

    BTW - We also know, again from David Kay, that Iraq had missles that cleary exceed the range limitation specified in the UN sanctions.

    Now why would you have missles if you didn't have, or expect to have, weapons that they could be used to deliver??

    hehe


    [ Parent ]

    And his ability to get... (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:05:33 PM EST
    come on, you can do it, finish the thought!

    (answer: slim and none)

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Not to mention (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:58:41 PM EST
    the Jose Padilla interogation video the government "lost" just before his "trial".

    Some war on terror. I guess they can always fall back on the incompetency defense again, though.

    [ Parent ]

    Aw yes... (1.00 / 1) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:04:10 PM EST
    I think the dear boy lost a finger... or was it he fingered a loss....

    [ Parent ]
    Why do you hate American values? (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 09:41:56 AM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    You really want me to?? (1.00 / 1) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:06:00 PM EST
    If he hadn't been stopped he would have had a new generation of WMD's to threaten his neihbors amd launch against Israel.


    [ Parent ]
    How would he have gotten this stuff? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 09:41:21 AM EST
    Its not that easy to assemble WMD, even if you are not under daily surveillance.

    Again it goes back to desire AND ability. He was even close to getting WMD in 2003.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    It's like giving a poker party (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Dark Avenger on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 10:48:32 AM EST
    and you have the drinks, ice, chips, etc., but no deck of cards.

    Saddam did want WMD, but without centrifuges(the only documented one in Iraq having been buried in a rose garden), he had no more of a chance of making a nuclear device then you would of having a poker party without one or more deck(s) of cards.

    His biological stock consisted in cultures that in one case were stored in a scientists' home refridge.

    Bushco listened to folks like Curveball over the Iraqi foreign minister, but PPJ and BAK types won't talk about that, it's very curious.............  

    [ Parent ]

    oy should read: not even close in 2003 (none / 0) (#112)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 11:49:26 AM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Forget about the attacks by Iraqis on other Iraqis (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:31:48 AM EST
    Regarding the motivations of the insurgents I interrogated in Iraq, a week ago I wrote:

    The vast majority of them weren't radical Muslims, bin Laden acolytes or Saddam hardliners; they were motivated by nationalism. They opposed the U.S. occupation of what they saw as their sovereign land (silly them!) so they lashed out in the most meaningful way they could: at the "collaborators" in their midst aiding and abetting the occupying, colonial power. It's basic insurgency doctrine, folks. In my experience, "religious fanaticism" is the veneer that some in Iraq, and even more in the West, use to cover what is essentially the struggle to get out from under the thumb of a strongman.
    ...
    I saw this dynamic when I was an interrogator in Iraq. Coalition forces would arrest an insurgent, humiliate him in front of his family, keep him in prison for months, and then release him without charges. In the meantime he learned to hate us (even if he hadn't before) and, more importantly, his family learned to hate us. While he was learning to hate us, he was in a population that was uniquely qualified to fan the flames of his hatred and teach him how he might better act on it. Meanwhile his family and close friends were now easy targets for recruitment. In getting rid of one "terrorist," we created several.

    On delusion fed by propaganda:
    The Myth of AQI
    Fighting al-Qaeda in Iraq is the last big argument for keeping U.S. troops in the country. But the military's estimation of the threat is alarmingly wrong.
    The view that AQI is neither as big nor as lethal as commonly believed is widespread among working-level analysts and troops on the ground. A majority of those interviewed for this article believe that the military's AQI estimates are overblown to varying degrees. If such misgivings are common, why haven't doubts pricked the public debate? The reason is that alternate views are running up against an echo chamber of powerful players all with an interest in hyping AQI's role.
    ...
    AQI's presence is tolerated by the country's Sunni Arabs, historically among the most secular in the Middle East, because they have a common enemy in the United States. Absent this shared cause, it's not clear that native insurgents would still welcome AQI forces working to impose strict sharia. In Baghdad, any near-term functioning government will likely be an alliance of Shiites and Kurds, two groups unlikely to accept organized radical Sunni Arab militants within their borders. Yet while precisely predicting future political dynamics in Iraq is uncertain, one thing is clear now: the continued American occupation of Iraq is al-Qaeda's best recruitment tool, the lure to hook new recruits. As RAND's Ali said, "What inspires jihadis today is Iraq."

    Five years ago, the American public was asked to support the invasion of Iraq based on the false claim that Saddam Hussein was somehow linked to al-Qaeda. Today, the erroneous belief that al-Qaeda's franchise in Iraq is a driving force behind the chaos in that country may be setting us up for a similar mistake.



    [ Parent ]
    Catch a clue. (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 11:44:53 AM EST
    Blowing up mosques and randomly killing women and children is not elimnating collaborators. It is an attempt to terrorize the general population into  accepting domination by whatever sect is murdering innocent people on that partiular day.

    Can you say ( repeat after me ) "Islamofacists?" That's who you have no matter what name they use.

    BTW - If this is your best source no wonder you don't know what's happening.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 11:56:34 AM EST
    We should NOT be randomly killing women and children in Iraq.

    It looks bad to do that. Iraqis don't like it. At all. They fight back. They kill American soldiers. And they kill collaborators.

    Catch a clue, ppj: The facts remain, which you conveniently ignore....

    ...that 1) before the invasion Iraq was one of the most advanced societies  on earth, 2) the daily horror show that Iraqis live through and die in DID NOT exist before the invasion, 3) that if Iraqis have sectarian differences and kill each other in a civil war, it is their civil war, and neither The US nor any other country has any more right to intervene for your benefit than any other more powerful country had the right to intervene in the American Civil War for their benefit, 4) ALL of the justifications for the invasion were outright lies, 5) the stated goal for the invasion, the ouster of Saddam Hussein and his Ba'ath party government, was accomplished within a few weeks of the invasion, and then instead of leaving after "mission" had been accomplished Bush proceeded to begin was has become a murderous 4 year (so far) occupation that has absolutely destroyed Iraqi society, 6) Iraq was relatively stable for the first few months after the invasion but has continually destabilized further and further the longer the occupation, which WAS NOT a stated goal, continues, 7) more Iraqis have died under and as a direct result of that occupation than Japanese who were killed in both of the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, 8)) All that American "help" has ever done for Iraq is make the situation worse. Continually. Never better. Only worse.
    ...
    The vast majority of Iraqis DO NOT want US troops occupying their country.

    Iraqis now tell you things like: "As to Saddam bad though he was your country is far worse",

    and "All I care about is that your country has its troops in my land raping its people, raping its resources, slaughtering our children, and defiling our Holy Places. The puppet government that rode in behind American tanks cannot pass the laws their American masters so desperately desire passed and is close to collapse.... There is only one measure of progress that matters in Irak and that is the progress in chewing the invader forces into pieces and then spitting them out. Progress on that is excellent."

    Catch a clue, ppj... if you are capable of it.

    [ Parent ]
    Pre-Invasion Iraq (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 02:28:50 PM EST
    Video: People on an Iraqi street, before they were made so happy by George W. Bush's 2003 liberation.

    There isn't a lot to say. Watch the video...

    [ Parent ]

    Got any videos of the rape rooms? (1.00 / 1) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 03:36:40 PM EST
    Villages being gassed? People being fed through industrial plastic shredders??

    [ Parent ]
    We certainly have videos (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 04:09:49 PM EST
    after the rape rooms under went new management....

    you really want to go here Jim... I mean, I wouldn't think you would want to start a discussion about Lyndie et. al.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Not to mention (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:22:46 PM EST
    the Jose Padilla interogation video the government "lost" just before his "trial".

    Some war on terror. I guess they can always fall back on the incompetency defense again, though.


    [ Parent ]

    Bolly B (1.00 / 1) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:08:16 PM EST
    I have never had a problem with punishing wrong doers.

    And I ask you bring some evidence to the table, or shall I call you Squeak 2??

    [ Parent ]

    As you Like it (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 09:26:56 AM EST
    So you do dare to go there.

    As you like it

    Warning: the above links are not workplace friendly  or suitable for young children.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    This is the dumbest statement of the (1.00 / 1) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 12:14:10 PM EST
    before the invasion Iraq was one of the most advanced societies  on earth,

    past 100 years.

    And you keep repeating it.

    hehe

    [ Parent ]

    You're back (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 12:19:20 PM EST
    You don't have to pretend. (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 12:38:29 PM EST
    before the invasion Iraq was one of the most advanced societies  on earth,

    Tehe

    [ Parent ]

    You mean you're NOT pretending? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 12:45:36 PM EST
    Well... I won't pretend to be surprised.

    [ Parent ]
    Believe me. You don't have to pretend. (1.00 / 1) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 03:51:31 PM EST
    before the invasion Iraq was one of the most advanced societies  on earth,


    [ Parent ]
    Works for me... (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:01:19 PM EST
    I won't pretend to be surprised when you say you're not just pretending to be stupid.

    [ Parent ]
    You don't have to pretend (1.00 / 1) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:04:36 PM EST
    before the invasion Iraq was one of the most advanced societies  on earth,

    and we have what you wrote right there in front of everyone...

    ONE OF THE MOST ADVANCED....

    hehe

    [ Parent ]

    You're just not getting it, are you? (none / 0) (#90)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:09:23 PM EST
    You've sold me. Congratulations. I believe you're not pretending.

    I'll take your advice and not pretend to be surprised.

    Happy now?

    [ Parent ]

    Getting it?? Me? (1.00 / 2) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:51:03 PM EST
    before the invasion Iraq was one of the most advanced societies  on earth

    Everyone is getting it.

    Tehehehe

    [ Parent ]

    What everyone ::gets::, ppj (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Edger on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 11:01:01 AM EST
    is that you are babbling with no intention of contribution or discourse, are utterly unable to face the reality of the debacle you still cheer, and are reduced to nothing more than avoidance, denial, and empty headed trolling.

    tehehehe, indeed...

    Beyond pitiful.

    [ Parent ]

    oh dear (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 02:40:53 PM EST
    someone's been reading Christopher Hitchens with a hefty dose of anti-nausea medication

    [ Parent ]
    Heh. (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 02:58:35 PM EST
    Too bad it wasn't thorazine...

    [ Parent ]
    Has it occured to you that the majority of Iraqi's (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:41:10 AM EST
    don't want us there? Whether or not we are there to help them become "a funtioning democrary" or to "rid the world of a madman" or  "WMD".

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Hello Molly. (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:25:08 AM EST
    Doesn't  make any difference. We are there. If they want us gone then they should be helping themeselves by helping us get rid of the terrorists.

    Of course based on the Left's record in Vietnam, all those civilians being killed now by the terrorists, and all those that will be killed if we follow the Demo/Left's advice and surrender and leave, or of no consequence. Last time it was a couple of million. Wonder what it will be this time around??

    [ Parent ]

    You 've been schooled on this before (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:05:51 AM EST
    More people died or were left homeless while conservatives insisted we stay in Vietnam. Less people died and were left homeless after we left. That is an inconvenient fact you consistently choose to ignore apparantly because it destroys your argument.

    Its clear conservatives and their social liberal ally who  basis his vote on national security  don't care about the dead in Vietnam or Iraq. They only care about making polticial points.

    Iraq is the GOP war (and the war of their social liberal ally who  basis his vote on national security). It will always be their war and its costs will always be taxed to them. Who lost Iraq? They did.

    And why doesn't it make any difference? There is nothing forcing us to be there (other than the madman occupying the Oval Office and his few supporters).  Terrorists in Iraq is but a fraction of the groups in Iraq. It is a civil war Jim. AQI is between 8% to 15% of the groups fighting in Iraq. Have you run out of honest arguments?

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    And you won't look in the mirror. (1.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:10:40 AM EST
    It was the Left's demonstrations that convinced a defeated North to continue fighting.

    The Left can not rewrite history in this matter.

    [ Parent ]

    And you know this how? (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:26:40 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And the answer is.... (1.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:14:24 AM EST
    By reading Bui Tin.

    AS AN OFFICER and a journalist for the North Vietnamese army newspaper, Bui Tin...He was one of the first high-ranking communists to enter Saigon when the government of South Vietnam collapsed in 1975.....In a recent interview published in The Wall Street Journal, former colonel Bui Tin who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975 confirmed the American Tet 1968 military victory: "Our loses were staggering and a complete surprise. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for reelection....

    And the left: "Support for the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9AM to follow the growth of the antiwar movement.
    Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey
    Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses.

    And your next question is????

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 02:44:08 PM EST
    the PR guy for the North Vietnamese army --

    have you no skepticism sir?  Have you, at last, no skepticism whatsoever?


    [ Parent ]

    aj (1.00 / 1) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 03:41:05 PM EST
    former colonel Bui Tin who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975

    Just another general staff nobody.

    tehehehe

    What class was that??

    [ Parent ]

    Yawn (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:00:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Mr. Credibility (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:51:47 PM EST
    Jim used to make up stories -- or parrot people who made up stories -- about having access to Gen Giaps personal memoirs before he was called on it a few times and ran and hid (cut 'n ran) rather than facing the music.

    This little tap dance that he does periodically about "Hanoi Jane" etc is just a Talk Radio-derived tape he has running in his head about the loss of U.S prestige in a war he, Shrub, Cheney, Rush, et al, all ducked out on.

    Just plain pathetic.

    [ Parent ]

    Jondee is funning us.... again.. (1.00 / 1) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:02:20 PM EST
    Jim used to make up stories -- or parrot people who made up stories -- about having access to Gen Giaps personal memoirs before he was called on it a few times and ran and hid (cut 'n ran) rather than facing the music.

    You're making things up again. Are you squeaky's evil twin??

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM
    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    BTW - I notice that you don't deny the accuracy. And I'm not even trying to write for TNR!

    hehe


    [ Parent ]

    If someone links (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:14:27 PM EST
    to you quoting his "memoirs" are you going to run and hide again?

    I seem to remember you telling everyone here to "read them".

    Of course you never said it. And Sen Craig never tapped anyone on the foot.lol

    [ Parent ]

    Proof (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by squeaky on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:33:22 PM EST
    link

    [ Parent ]
    Proof? Are you daft?? (1.00 / 1) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:07:50 PM EST
    Now this is what Jondee wrote:

    If someone links (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:14:27 PM EST
    to you quoting his "memoirs" are you going to run and hide again?

    I seem to remember you telling everyone here to "read them".

    Now the following is what Squeaky links to in what he calls "proof." Note that nowhere do I refer to General Giap, much less his memoirs. The author, Bin Tui makes one reference to Giap, and it is a most telling one.

    So thanks guys for reposting my previous post. I surely appreciate it.

    Now, go look under incompetentance in the dictionary and I am sure you will find your picture..

    Tehehehe

    A Day of Protest | 127 comments (127 topical)
    [new] Re: A Day of Protest (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:18 PM EST
    cpinva writes:

        "the tet offensive of jan., 68, proved, beyond all doubt, that the u.s. intelligence services had no clue whatever. that was the true lesson of that engagement."

    The real question isn't whether what "intelligence" knew, but did you win? Let's see what someone from North Vietnam says, not what the MSM and Walter Cornkite said.

        "In a recent interview published in The Wall Street Journal, former colonel Bui Tin who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975 confirmed the American Tet 1968 military victory: "Our loses were staggering and a complete surprise. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for reelection.

    And if you still don't think morale is important, try the below:

        Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and would struggle along with us .... those people represented the conscience of America .... part of it's war- making capability, and we turning that power in our favor."

    Link



    [ Parent ]
    I love it (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:36:19 PM EST
    the fact that the Vietnamses had been fighting for their independence -- promised by Roosevelt, reneged on by Truman -- for 100 years provided no impetus like "the Left's demonstrations."

    Only a graduate of Dittohead U. could have insights like that.

    [ Parent ]

    And if (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:49:44 PM EST
    Jim had his way they wouldnt be allowed to write it at all.

    [ Parent ]
    Jondee (1.00 / 1) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:12:06 PM EST
    Heh and interesting.

    I had no idea that Roosevelt promised a French possession their freedom. Much less Truman.

    And, of coutse, they got their freedom. Those who wanted to be communists had the  North, and those who didn't had the South.

    BTW - Could we see some proof on that claim?

    [ Parent ]

    What's the matter? (1.00 / 1) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:11:10 PM EST
    Fresh out of proof??

    Tehehe...he

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:42:34 AM EST
    Koolaid is you.

    What part of "Bush unleashed the dogs of hell in Iraq and now there is no possible way to put them back in the bottle without 400,000 American troops on the ground" don't you get?

    [ Parent ]

    aj (1.00 / 1) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:08:40 AM EST
    400,000?

    Heh.

    I am tempted to say "whatever it takes," but General Petraeus says a considerable smaller number..

    Of course I am sure you have a lengthy and impressive military resume...

    West Point Class of.......??

    [ Parent ]

    We been through the military record before -- (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by aj12754 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 08:27:17 AM EST
    get a new gig.

    [ Parent ]
    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:18:10 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The mating call (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 06:16:41 PM EST
    of Chickenhawkus Americanus.

    [ Parent ]
    I did my 10 and you did none. (1.00 / 1) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:14:17 PM EST
    Shameful, isn't it?? Try to suck it up and take it like a man. You probably wouldn't have made it through basic even if you had volunteered..

    Tehehe

    [ Parent ]

    Where'd you get that (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 11:55:04 AM EST
    "suck it up.." line from, Sen Craig?

    You went in an ignorant, xenophobic, nincompoop and came out one. So much for the value of "service".

    Tear yourself away from Hannity and colmes for a few minutes and read the Vietnam section of Barbara Tuchman's The March of Folly for more on Roosevelt and Truman vis a vis Vietnam.

    [ Parent ]

    Tehehe (5.00 / 0) (#114)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 11:56:47 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Suck it up?? (none / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 09:50:36 AM EST
    Don't actually know. In my youth it would have meant drinking a milk shake.

    When did you first hear it??

    [ Parent ]

    Jondee finally tells us how he feels (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 10:01:59 AM EST
    about military service to the country.

    Where'd you get that (5.00 / 2) (#113) by jondee on Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 11:55:04 AM EST

    "suck it up.." line from, Sen Craig?
    You went in an ignorant, xenophobic, nincompoop and came out one. So much for the value of "service".

    I respond:

    So much for the value......? I see that Moveon's attack has lowered the standards and encouraged you to say what you feel about military service to the country.

    [ Parent ]

    You're not exactly (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 12:31:00 PM EST
    a walking advertisment yourself, Jim.

    What I think is that you place more value in the clothes than in what the person does in them.

    Make any headway in reducing the area of what you dont know in history yet; i.e., Roosevelt, Truman and Vietnam?

    [ Parent ]

    You know that's not true pal..... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:16:10 AM EST
    You know we ain't leaving Iraq no matter what happens to the murderous foreign terrorists, Iraqi insurgents, and whoever else.

    We'll leave when we tire of our guys getting picked off a few at a time, or we'll never leave.  

    [ Parent ]

    Smirk (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by squeaky on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 08:40:04 PM EST
    Liberingrates (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by squeaky on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:46:41 AM EST
    Patrick Cockburn writes about the people who are supposed to be dancing in the street because we liberated them. Oh, and these ingrates are not remotely connected to al-Qaida
    Ten days after President George Bush clasped his hand as a symbol of America's hopes in Iraq, the man who led the US-supported revolt of Sunni sheikhs against al-Qa'ida in Iraq was assassinated.....

    ......On Monday General Petraeus told the US Congress that Anbar province was "a model of what happens when local leaders and citizens decide to oppose al-Qa'ida and reject its Taliban-like ideology"......

    .....But President Bush's highly publicised visit to Anbar may well have been Abu Risha's death knell. There are many Sunni who loathe al-Qa'ida, but very few who approve of the US occupation. By giving the impression that Abu Risha was one of America's most important friends, Mr Bush ensured that some of the most dangerous men in the world would try to kill him.

    Patrick Cockburn

    [ Parent ]

    Saudi oil money buying America friends (none / 0) (#18)
    by Aaron on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:24:35 PM EST
    The alliance in Anbar province is based on dollars, US dollars provided by the Saudis to the various tribal leaders in the region, that's how we got that support.  These leaders will remain our friends only as long as that money continues to flow.  And you can bet that the Saudis are getting money under the table from the White House, to help offset the enormous expense of buying that loyalty.

    The value of the US dollar is now being undermined by the nut in the White House, the dollar has fallen once again, to less than two thirds the value of one euro.  George W. Bush will bankrupt this country and everyone in it in order to keep his messianic "belief" alive, he has lost touch with reality and should rightly be removed before he can do any more damage.  One more year of this president is going to send our economy spiraling into recession, possibly even depression.

    Simply put he's a madman, and he'll take us all down with him if we allow it.  

    [ Parent ]

    Aaron (1.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 10:19:58 PM EST
    Actually a weak dollar helps our exports and reduces the trade imbalance.

    Now go beat him up  over something that might make sense.

    [ Parent ]

    BTW - Your proof if this is???? (1.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:22:37 AM EST
    The alliance in Anbar province is based on dollars, US dollars provided by the Saudis to the various tribal leaders in the region,


    [ Parent ]
    I don't understand. What is with ... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Meteor Blades on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:02:22 PM EST
    ...you silly liberals? The President said he's going to have 5700 troops home for Christmas. That's 700 more than Senator Warner asked for. You're just never satisfied.

    Really??!? (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:09:17 PM EST
    What a guy that Bush is. Jeeze. And I forgot to bring flowers to throw.

    Will it be ok if I just drop a few roses? ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    You silly conservatives are never informed. (none / 0) (#10)
    by bare ruined choirs on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:09:13 PM EST
    The reason those aforementioned troops are coming home is BECAUSE THEY LEGALLY HAVE TO. There deployment is up, so without extending (AGAIN) deployment times they can't stay. On top of that we don't have the troops to replace them. This is NOT news; anyone informed on the subject knew this was coming, and that it was not Bush's OR Patraeus' decision.

    [ Parent ]
    MB can't help it, bare. (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:18:20 PM EST
    He's as conservative and pro war as they can get. ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    I couldn't stomach (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:05:47 PM EST
    the idea of watching him.  Did he say anything surprising?

    What did who say? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:13:42 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Good point..... (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:20:25 AM EST
    whatever he said (I couldn't stomach a viewing either), it's not him saying it.  He's just the dummy, moving his mouth to the words of the ventriliquist.

    [ Parent ]
    I can't watch... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by desertswine on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:36:28 AM EST
    that clown either. The rage just boils.

    So I watched Woody Woodpecker cartoons instead. You know, I think Woody has at least a fifty point IQ advantage on the Chimp.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, come on! (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:54:43 AM EST
    Why insult Woody like that? It's at least 110%, no?

    [ Parent ]
    HAH!! (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by desertswine on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 10:19:21 AM EST
    You're right. Woody is very clever, while the Chimp is a very, very dull boy indeed.

    [ Parent ]
    Like the other one in this thread? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 09:29:35 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Edwards (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by TomStewart on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 09:43:47 PM EST
    Nice job John. Short and to the point, and bound to get replayed, as it should. Now, will anyone listen?

    Give this man the job.

    Once again, Michael Ware... (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Dadler on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 02:27:19 PM EST
    ...a war correspondent in the old school mold, calls out Dubya's empty b.s. for exactly what it is, in the most stark and informed terms.  

    Looks like (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 05:32:06 PM EST
    the view from the actual street in Baghdad is a little less rosy than from a heavily fortified military base in Anbar province. Who knew?

    The Iraqis call it perpetual war and occupation. Bush calls it democracy. Time for Congress to call it off.

    [ Parent ]

    And you have seen neither. (none / 0) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 10:05:05 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You have? (none / 0) (#119)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 10:13:08 AM EST
    No ideas again PPJ in your response, just a demand others adhere to requirements you yourself never satisfy. So typically Republican, Craig-like even.

    Fact is Bush is wrong about progress in Iraq, or why didn't he go to the capital of the world's shiniest, newest democracy. If you read something other than JihadWatch or the ravings of DH and his ilk you'd know.

    [ Parent ]

    dadler (1.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 03:45:29 PM EST
    You see it works like this.

    If Ware says anything good Anderson will never, never, never speak to him again.

    [ Parent ]

    Your worst response ever (none / 0) (#100)
    by Dadler on Fri Sep 14, 2007 at 07:10:37 PM EST
    Your reactionary denial of as credible a source on the ground in Iraq as you can get, a genuinely courageous war correspondent...oh, what's the point?  

    Have a good one, Jim.  

    [ Parent ]

    dadler (none / 0) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 10:12:06 AM EST
    Your opinion on Ware and the MSM in general defines the gulf.

    Need I remind you of TNR? Of the photo shopped pictures from Lebabnon? From the reports from Iraq using "sringers" that hav