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Tom Friedman Is Not Smart

No man who writes this could be:

Dive into a conversation about America in the Arab world today, or even in Europe and Africa, and it won’t take 30 seconds before the words “Abu Ghraib” and “Guantánamo Bay” are thrown at you. Yes, both are shameful, but Abu Ghraib was a day at the beach compared to what Al Qaeda and its Sunni jihadist supporters have been doing in Iraq, yet none of their acts have become one-punch global insults like Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo.

Is Tom Friedman out of his mind? Is his winning argument that 'yes, the United States is shameful, but Al Qaida is worse?'

This man is considered a leading pundit in our country? The last 6 years can come as no surprise in light of that. Friedman is a disgrace.

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    But can't you see (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:18:38 PM EST
    how reasonable and measured he's trying to be. (He isn't, of course, but he's TRYING.) Why do you hate America???

    Pretty sick and disgusting (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:19:29 PM EST
    is what I saw.

    Parent
    I'll stick with "not that smart" (none / 0) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:23:17 PM EST
    Not Smart (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Maryb2004 on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:30:04 PM EST
    That's such a mild accusation.  Out of his mind was better.  You should have led with that.

    J (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:31:39 PM EST
    likes the titles to be more polite.

    She lets me rant in the content.

    Parent

    Sounds like a fair tradeoff (none / 0) (#11)
    by Maryb2004 on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:42:11 PM EST
    She's a peach (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:52:44 PM EST
    She puts up with a lot of flak caused by me.

    Parent
    you're quite the magnet (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Miss Devore on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:58:51 PM EST
    for that kind of woman.

    Parent
    And for the ones that like (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 11:01:06 PM EST
    to deliver the flak.

    Case in point, yourself.

    Parent

    your EFA (none / 0) (#16)
    by Miss Devore on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 11:11:02 PM EST
    =earned flak average.high, IMO.

    does Tom Friedman think he is above criticism of  his published past anymore than you?

    Parent

    Never denied it (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 11:23:59 PM EST
    Please (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by tnthorpe on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:38:11 PM EST
    Could we have t-shirts made with the thread's headline on them? It should be easy because t-shirts are flat.

    I'd buy (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:41:56 PM EST
    Matt Taibbi on that book:
    It's not that he occasionally screws up and fails to make his metaphors and images agree. It's that he always screws it up. He has an anti-ear, and it's absolutely infallible; he is a Joyce or a Flaubert in reverse, incapable of rendering even the smallest details without genius. The difference between Friedman and an ordinary bad writer is that an ordinary bad writer will, say, call some businessman a shark and have him say some tired, uninspired piece of dialogue: Friedman will have him spout it. And that's guaranteed, every single time. He never misses.
    and
    Predictably, Friedman spends the rest of his huge book piling one insane image on top of the other, so that by the end--and I'm not joking here--we are meant to understand that the flat world is a giant ice-cream sundae that is more beef than sizzle, in which everyone can fit his hose into his fire hydrant, and in which most but not all of us are covered with a mostly good special sauce. Moreover, Friedman's book is the first I have encountered, anywhere, in which the reader needs a calculator to figure the value of the author's metaphors.
    Go read the whole thing. It's a scream.

    Parent
    Whatever he is, (1.00 / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 11:08:53 PM EST
    he is a nationaly syndcated columnist...

    Eat your heart out.

    Parent

    And George Bush is president (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by kovie on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:17:12 AM EST
    Gonzo is AG, Rummie was SecDef and Brownie was in charge of Katrina recovery. And Bill O' is probably the most famous "journalist" in the country.

    So what's your point, that position grants credibility?

    Parent

    I am not PPJ (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by kovie on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:37:07 PM EST
    So I assume that this comment was not intended for me.

    Parent
    DA (1.00 / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 11:29:21 AM EST
    You don't think people here, almost all devoted bloggers and commentators, do not envy someone who is a nationally syndicated columnist?????

    Now, they may disagree... but disagreement does not replace envy, although it supercharge it.

    Parent

    No PPJ (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 11:59:34 AM EST
    Most here are very unlike you and are not the least bit envious of your pals Friedman, Limbaugh, the she pundit et al. Your envy reveals your shallowness.

    Parent
    Special for DA and the Squeaky (1.00 / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:23:48 PM EST
    DA, since I caught you in two in a row, I notice that you have quit being my guide.

    What happened? Couldn't stand the heat??

    As for you Squeaky, let's examine what you have written as your commenting guidelines. In your own words:

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.



    Parent
    PPJ aka Wind Up Toy (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:38:59 PM EST
    And a lying one to boot. I guess that is all we can expect from one who tries to mimic second rate entertainers.

    Parent
    There are no errors to be found. (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 07:27:27 PM EST
    There are no errors to be found.

    You are trying to claim differences of opinion as "errors."

    Oh well, perfectly understandable in one with such a high opion of himself.

    Parent

    Funny thing (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 10:53:52 AM EST
    In my business I get the big money for being right, and when I am wrong, it COSTS me money.

    Why are there no consequences for people like Friedman who are wrong every time for years?

    Parent

    Business (1.00 / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 11:24:18 AM EST
    If I remember your business is moving goods.

    You get paid for doing that.

    Freidman's business is entertainment.

    He is paid for doing that.

    When you quit moving things in an acceptable manner, you will be out of business.

    When Friedman ceases to entertain, he will be out of business.

    Parent

    The meme (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 11:57:23 AM EST
    which allows a Coulter or a Hannity or a Friedman to  spew almost anything with impunity, is that they're "entertainers". Page one, chapter one, in the wingnut playbook.

    Framed this way -- if you buy into the disengenuous frame -- Rethug commentators can lie, distort and propagandize forever, but hey: they're just entertainers; that's what entertainers do.

    Parent

    Do you think people read things they find (1.00 / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 12:08:13 PM EST
    uninteresting, unentertaing? Do you watch TV shows you don't enjoy?

    Perhaps you do. The vast majority of people do not.


    Parent

    Drink Up (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 12:21:17 PM EST
    Kool Aid is in abundant supply, unlike you most people don't swallow.

    Parent
    Does Squaky like pain?? (1.00 / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:27:20 PM EST
    And I repeat. Most people do NOT watch, read or listen to something that does not entertain them.

    Of course if you like pain.... who knows?? Does she have a really sharp whip and high heel boots??

    ;-)

    Parent

    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:25:51 PM EST
     I dont remember hearing anyone describe political commentators as "entertainers" before the advent of Fox and Wingnut Talk Radio.

    Is that a backhanded admission that they're professional liers and dissemblers? I think it is.

    Parent

    It's The PPJ Show (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:58:06 PM EST
    Along those lines ppj must think of himself the Red Skeleton of the blogosphere. He is repeating hack entertainers 'jokes' to a hundred thousand admirers every day.  

    No wonder why we find him so funny.

    hahahahahaha

    Parent

    Please spell my name right. (1.00 / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:33:26 PM EST
    It is jimakappj.

    And how did you know that Red Skelton is a personal favorite?? Is that you called him a "hack?"

    Perhaps he wasn't vulgar enough for your taste.


    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:41:22 PM EST
    America used to be a standard (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 09:28:58 AM EST
    to strive for in many ways.  Gone is the day when we challenged ourselves to set the mark, not find excuses to be losers and bottom feeders and torturers and murderers because someone else is too.  If my kids don't get away with what Tommy's mom lets him do neither does the disgraceful Tom Friedman.  Get a real job Tom!

    That day must return (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 09:32:19 AM EST
    so, in essence (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by cpinva on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 11:53:28 AM EST
    mr. friedman is suggesting that what we have is really just a big PR problem? get some hot shot, madison avenue types on the issue, and we'll have the iraquis eating out of our hands!

    oh, wait, that was already tried, the "flowers" bit. didn't seem to work to well then, either.

    oh well.

    Insomniac crankiness (3.50 / 2) (#19)
    by eluminata on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 01:42:23 AM EST
    Likely it's too deleriously of a late hour for me to have anything coherent to say, but I'm just feeling a bit annoyed by how common it is for smart men, such as yourself, to resort to ad hominem attacks (a debased discourse, a byproduct of modernity perhaps, myself included).  I like to envision a more deliberative period when our national dialogue and debate was entirely based on the merits.  Of course, this utopia is an imaginative one on my part, as history shows.  

    But let's take a look at the facts.  Shall we?  You're far better acquainted with what the punditry caste has to offer than myself, I readily concede.  So taking a look at the record (that I'm quite sure will ring a bell):

    Friedman called for Gitmo to be shut down midway through 2005:

    Just Shut It Down - New York Times
    By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN. Published: May 27, 2005. London. Shut it down. Just shut it down. I am talking about the war-on-terrorism P.O.W. camp at Guantánamo...

    Which indicates that he does not take the human rights violations committed there or elsewhere, sanctioned by U.S., lightly.  He's on the record repeatedly on this score and you're too keenly observant not to know this.  

    You seem to willfully disregard the context in which his point is being made.  Friedman's arguing about U.S. soft power here, the so-called 'battle for the hearts and minds' that's not going too swell.  And likely he's a bit more well traveled and thus acutely aware of this reality than either you or I.  

    He's also pointing out the pathetic, dispiriting and bitter irony of how insidiously stealth was the Rove electoral machine when it came to rolling over anyone (swift boating genuine war heroes, Cleland/Kerry/McCain, while never truly being held to account for Shrub's own personal milestones or lack thereof) on their way towards the brass ring, while being utterly ineffectual at combating our actual lethal adversaries (think, 'wanted dead or alive' - so much for the W. as sherriff) whether militarily or dimplomatically.  

    Let's be honest about the demonstrable convictions of those we are arguing with, it tends to be a bit more substantive.  Wouldn't you agree?  Friedman's career demonstrates that he has had a lifelong interest in and commitment to the Mideast (unlike W., i.e. recalling Pakistan's Prez as 'the General' in the '99 pop quiz).  The Mideast theme is evident from Friedman's choice of bachelor's degree onward throughout the arc of his professional career.  And being the avid news junkie we all know you to be - you're well aware of this and that he's prone to pointing out the nihilism inherent in societal conditions on the Arab street that would glorify suicide bombing and the mass murder of civilians as the most illustrious distinction one can attain in this lifetime (the intentional grooming of a lad or lady towards a path to make Allah and dear old mom proud, etc.).  You know that this irks him enough that he routinely points it out.  How the atrocities are not being decried outright, vocally, but that there's a kind of resignation to it.  

    And that we are all may be bearing witness to the makings of ethnic cleansing among rival Iraqi sectarian factions, if not the glowing embers of a full fledge genocide (that could become further inflamed regardless of what we do or don't do, at this point) is worthy of the occasional reference.  Is it not?  

    And while on the topic of moral equivalency, it's also dubious to say that there are absolutely no distinctions between Al Qaeda's mass murder and U.S. detention policy mayhem (not that murder of detainees hasn't occurred as well) - but numerically speaking - the scale of human suffering entailed in the two issues being contrasted in your excerpt, well there are both comparisons as well as contrast to be made.  So I'm aggravated by intellectual dishonesty, preaching to the cynical choir, construing an argument any which way, as 'we're bad, but they're worse' is just laziness.  And beneath your powers of argument.  He's acknowledged that bad has been done by both sides.  That's not his point.  He's baffled that somehow bin Laden is still coming up all roses and light, portrayed as the great Mideast redeemer, as this Administration routinely plays into his hand with a cluelessness and consistent Murphy's Law bufdoonery that we can ill afford.  Sorry for the cranky tone, but I'd just prefer something a bit more thought provoking to chew on, than schoolyard name calling. Bottom line.  BTD is smart, but this blog leaves a bit to be desired.  To conclude my rant before bedtime, one of my favorite lines in the Friedman/Times piece above, "Guantanamo Bay is becoming the anti-Statue of Liberty."  Rick Burns documentary on that topic (the Statue - from the 90s) re-aired on PBS recently, and it was just sends a chill up my spine by how awful a path has been taken.  How the sullied undergarments of our past, more clandestine complicity with human rights violations/violators are now brazenly showing wear and tear on the surface.  Wearing the anti-values like a badge of honor.  We can pretty much agree on this point, no?  To borrow from someone that I'm not prone to quoting, Dan Quayle "I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."


    I find this part of your comment (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 07:59:54 AM EST
    particularly amusing:

    So I'm aggravated by intellectual dishonesty, preaching to the cynical choir, construing an argument any which way, as 'we're bad, but they're worse' is just laziness.  And beneath your powers of argument.  He's acknowledged that bad has been done by both sides.  That's not his point.

    It is not my point either.

    Your entire comment loses any luster of coherence once we get to that.

    Your personal attacks on me are marred (that is the use of  irony to be sure on my part) by your perfect misunderstanding of my post.


    Parent

    Sorry for the personal attack (none / 0) (#41)
    by eluminata on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 11:58:34 AM EST
    It's hypocritical to be contemptuous towards someone in order to highlight the distastefulness (not to mention lack of efficacy) inherent in contempt.  That's the weakness of the ad hominem style - it shuts down debate.  But why is your use of irony admirable while Friedman's is despicable?  If he had written, "Dive into a conversation about America in the Arab world today, or even in Europe and Africa, and it won't take 30 seconds before the words "Abu Ghraib" and "Guantánamo Bay" are thrown at you. Yes, both are shameful, but Abu Ghraib was a [lesser atrocity on the scale of human rights violations] compared to what Al Qaeda and its Sunni jihadist supporters have been doing in Iraq, yet none of their acts have become one-punch global insults like Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo."  With what part of this sentiment do you disagree?  Perhaps some clarification is in order?

    Parent
    Friedman was not being ironic (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 12:25:30 PM EST
    Huh? (none / 0) (#58)
    by eluminata on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:26:12 PM EST
    And how is 'a day at the beach' not characterized as an ironic turn of phrase?  And you have yet to respond to my inquiry. What part is stupid?  

    Parent
    I am sorry (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:32:58 PM EST
    But I simply think you do not understand what the word ironic means. This is what Friedman wrote:

    Yes, both are shameful, but Abu Ghraib was a day at the beach compared to what Al Qaeda and its Sunni jihadist supporters have been doing in Iraq, yet none of their acts have become one-punch global insults like Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo

    THe word ironic is defined as:

    dry: humorously sarcastic or mocking; "dry humor"; "an ironic remark often conveys an intended meaning obliquely"; "an ironic novel"; "an ironical smile"; "with a wry Scottish wit"
    characterized by often poignant difference or incongruity between what is expected and what actually is; "madness, an ironic fate for such a clear thinker"; "it was ironical that the well-planned scheme failed so completely"

    Irony is a form of speech in which the real meaning is concealed or contradicted by the words used. Irony involves the perception that things are not what they are said to be or what they seem. Dramatic irony lies in the audience's deeper perceptions of a coming fate, which contrast with a character's lack of knowledge about said fate. A common metaphor for using irony is to "have your tongue in cheek".

    By the way, if Friedman was trying to be ironic about Abu Ghraib, then he was particularly despicable.

    I think he is particularly not smart.

    Parent

    Huh? (take two) (none / 0) (#74)
    by eluminata on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:26:31 PM EST
    And how is juxtaposing 'a day at the beach; with Abu Ghraib and Gitmo 'a difference between what is expected and what actually is'?  

    So it's safe for me to assume that were I to offer you a free vacation package - your choice of Gitmo or the beach - that you'd take some time to mull it over?

    Parent

    What the heck are you talking about? (none / 0) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:01:27 PM EST
    How am I being obtuse here? (none / 0) (#87)
    by eluminata on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:48:18 PM EST
    Is the only ironic sensibility that you apprehend your own?

    From Dictionary.com on 'irony':

    In the figure of speech, emphasis is placed on the opposition between the literal and intended meaning of a statement; one thing is said and its opposite implied, as in the comment, "Beautiful weather, isn't it?" made when it is raining or nasty.

    So when I suggest that you might favor the psychedelic music and surreal stobe lighting of Gitmo, as opposed to let's say a 'day at the beach' - I'm pointing out your stubborn incredulity at discerning an ironic parallel between Friedman's use of Gitmo as juxtaposed with 'a day at the beach.'  

    How, pray tell, does this not fall in the realm of irony????????????????

    Parent

    Are you endorsing (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:57:51 PM EST
    ironic discussions of Abu Ghraib?

    Your entire particpation in this thread utterly baffles me.

    I am done with it.

    Parent

    Post Script (none / 0) (#59)
    by eluminata on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:30:35 PM EST
    I can accept that you did not hear it as ironic, due to you views of TF, but it's absurd to suggest you know his intentions objectively, nor that the obviously sardonic 'a day at the beach' was not intended as such.  Fight fair if you expect others to do the same.

    Parent
    Your interpretation (none / 0) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:33:33 PM EST
    is more damning than mine frankly.

    Parent
    Frustrated with Pundits (none / 0) (#21)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:09:24 AM EST
    How often does one get to be wrong in a really big way and still be an expert? I think Tim Robbins answered that on Bill Maher's show pretty neatly. link here Point is, that while I think you're right to show how many times TF has argued against the Bush Administration's policies, he helped to lead the charge into war. So right, let's not demonize the man, though I still want my t-shirt because I think his world is flat idea is silly. Yes, he's recanted his pro-war position, but he ought to have known better. He is no doubt sincere in his hopes, but hope is a bad basis for policy. An example of what I mean from the Jan 22, 2003 NYT opinion page:

    "Trust me, there is a part of every young Arab today that recoils at the idea of a U.S. invasion of Iraq, because of its colonial overtones. But there is a part of many young Arabs today that prays the U.S. will not only oust Saddam but all other Arab leaders as well.

    It is not unreasonable to believe that if the U.S. removed Saddam and helped Iraqis build not an overnight democracy but a more accountable, progressive and democratizing regime, it would have a positive, transforming effect on the entire Arab world -- a region desperately in need of a progressive model that works.

    And liberals need to take heed. Just by mobilizing for war against Iraq, the U.S. has sent this region a powerful message: We will not leave you alone anymore to play with matches, because the last time you did, we got burned. Just the threat of a U.S. attack has already prompted Hezbollah to be on its best behavior in Lebanon (for fear of being next). And it has spurred Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah to introduce a proposal to his fellow Arab leaders for an ''Arab Charter'' of political and economic reform" link here
    Well, Saudi Arabia still funds Wahabbi schools and they're no closer to reform now than then. Hezbollah fought the Israeli army to a draw in 2006 and Hamas has been elected to power in Palestine. I'm not blaming TF for this, but despite his hopes, our illegal occupation of Iraq has made things terribly worse. We've galvanized the generation TF knows we need to reach. It's said that a country doesn't have friends, it has interests. This war is justified in the language of friendship--"look at what we want to do for them, bring them democracy"--but it's enactment is in line with narrowly conceived American interests: oil, economic privatization, war profiteering. The biggest mistake TF made earlier is asking the military to solve a cultural and political set of problems, which no military could do. The Marshall Plan comes after the war, the war is not itself the Marshall plan. I read the op-ed posted above as a plea to Washington to do more than point and shoot, point and blame. But in TF's case it's  locking the door after the house has burned down. I guess I'm just frustrated with coulda, woulda, shoulda from someone who oughta known better.

    Parent

    Due respect (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 08:01:58 AM EST
    This has nothing to do with my point either.

    Parent
    Not on the bandwagon here (none / 0) (#48)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 12:44:24 PM EST
    I'm tired of TF altogether and I was making a point of my own.

    Parent
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 12:58:04 PM EST
    I understood you as discussing my point.

    I a m glad you clarified the point.

    Parent

    Thanks for the thoughtfulness that went into this (none / 0) (#57)
    by eluminata on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:22:53 PM EST
    Did you catch the recent Stephen Hayes interview with Jon Stewart? There's a point where Jon talks about the 'essence of people's anguish' with regard to Cheney & Co. and I can clearly hear that sentiment echoed throughout your post.  

    If I'm recalling this correctly (from several TV appearances I've seen), even Friedman's wife was a Cassandra portending disaster in the run up to the war.  So I suspect that TF's acutely aware of the ambivalence he's evoked on every front.  But with so much animosity on the blogosphere, it was reassuring to hear someone's voice mirroring back a kind of 'hopeful' vibe emanating from TF's columns (however problematic, I do not see TF's motives as identical with Cheney & Co., as is too often suggested).  It also seems mistaken to conflate his views with the manner in which this Administration has conducted this war (i.e. what every post-invasion book examines, as well as the documentaries by Frontline and Charles Ferguson ["No End in Sight"] depict as their cavalier fecklessness as armchair warriors).  It's difficult to discern the nuances (and chain of responsibility) when there is so much at stake, and so much that has gone badly, but still important to do so. The New York Times, for example, editorialized against the war, due to its  core multilateral convictions in contrast to the unilateralism inherent in the neocon invasion blueprint (notwithstanding the wisdom of a more youthful Dick Cheny, as with the '94 video clip circulating recently).  

    Right now, I happen to be house sitting next door to a man (now retired) who worked for the NSA, as a liason to the CIA, for the entirety of his career and was present both  during & post-9/11 as well as during the run up to Iraq.  He's furious with the damage done, internationally, by this Administration.  So it was an odd experience to sit directly across from someone entirely suspect of this Administration, yet who had expertise in intelligence gathering (on delivery systems, specifically) and to hear unfiltered that there was no question from where he stood that Saddam aspirations in this regard were being manifested.  It just gave me a sense of the human element that goes on behind-the-scenes and into what I hear on the news.  Our conversation meandered a bit at one point, when I brought up an uncle of mine who had been an F-111 pilot in the 80s, and he lamented how he felt responsible for the intelligence failures that led to the downing of two F-111 pilots during Operation El Delrado Canyon against Gadaffi (they were aware of the Soviet type anti-aircraft weaponry sold to Libya but hadn't detected France's surreptitious/for-profit selling of the same, thus the two pilots were caught off guard).  It just gave me a sense of the anguish this incident still caused in him, despite a score of years transpiring in the meantime.  

    As I think your post reflected, you can get a sense of the character of a man or woman through his writing and Friedman does not occur as someone devoid of conscience.  To act as though he is a foot soldier of this Administration or contend that he has no sense/moral compass on the consequences of this war seems to misread much of what he's written.  Perhaps it's as much an intuitive sense, not exclusively an intellectual exercise, to determine those who one deems as contributing to the debate verses those who are not.  Your frustration certainly has its place.  

    Parent

    You must be kidding (none / 0) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:05:52 PM EST
    Have you ever seen this?

    Deep Thoughts From Tom Friedman

    05/30/03 on Charlie Rose.

    I think it [the invasion of Iraq] was unquestionably worth doing, Charlie.

    ...

    We needed to go over there, basically, um, and um, uh, take out a very big state right in the heart of that world and burst that bubble, and there was only one way to do it.

    ...

    What they needed to see was American boys and girls going house to house, from Basra to Baghdad, um and basically saying, "Which part of this sentence don't you understand?"

    You don't think, you know, we care about our open society, you think this bubble fantasy, we're just gonna to let it grow?

    Well, Suck. On. This.

    Okay.

    That Charlie was what this war was about. We could've hit Saudi Arabia, it was part of that bubble. We coulda hit Pakistan. We hit Iraq because we could.

    Do you know a gosh darn thing about Tom Friedman?

    Parent

    He was ambivalent even then (none / 0) (#68)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:12:50 PM EST
    In a op-ed from January 26, 2003  NYT he writes: Link here
    "Let's start with one simple fact: Iraq is a black box that has been sealed shut since Saddam came to dominate Iraqi politics in the late 1960's. Therefore, one needs to have a great deal of humility when it comes to predicting what sorts of bats and demons may fly out if the U.S. and its allies remove the lid. Think of it this way: If and when we take the lid off Iraq, we will find an envelope inside. It will tell us what we have won and it will say one of two things.

    It could say, ''Congratulations! You've just won the Arab Germany -- a country with enormous human talent, enormous natural resources, but with an evil dictator, whom you've just removed. Now, just add a little water, a spoonful of democracy and stir, and this will be a normal nation very soon.''

    Or the envelope could say, ''You've just won the Arab Yugoslavia -- an artificial country congenitally divided among Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis, Nasserites, leftists and a host of tribes and clans that can only be held together with a Saddam-like iron fist. Congratulations, you're the new Saddam.''

    When the stakes are so high, you can't roll the dice for democracy and hope. Alas...

    Sounds like you've got an interesting neighbor. I wonder what he sees ahead for us given his experience? I like that you remind us that underneath all the rhetoric there are real hard-working people doing the best they can with what they're given. Now I need to go find that Stewart/Hadley interview.

    Parent

    He was ambivalently cheerleading for it? (none / 0) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:19:36 PM EST
    Honestly, you folks must believe O'Hanlon was a war critic.

    Parent
    BTD (none / 0) (#76)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:59:05 PM EST
    I didn't put that right, he wasn't ambivalent but he articulated a dilemma that ought to have given him substantial pause. So let me clarify. He knew the likely consequences, but supported the war anyway because he hoped, foolishly, for massive regional change. My earlier post notes that hope is a bad basis for policy. The quote shows clearly that he recognized the tremendous dangers of failure, though his fatuous rhetoric "just add a little water, a spoonful of democracy and stir, and this will be a normal nation very soon" is beyond imbecilic. This sort of rhetoric greatly assisted the Bush/Cheney Administration, but it is distinct from their own floral fantasies. I'm not supporting him by pointing this out. I think he failed to assess the situation at all correctly, as my earlier posts note. He ought to have persevered in his dilemma before leaping to embrace a run up to war. The point is, he articulated an ambivalence that he should have paid a great deal more attention to. Of course, you might just consider it a false dilemma to begin with, and there's a lot to be said in favor of that--see some of the posts below. Iraq was/is a disaster across the board, but that's why I'm thinking that someone like TF who helped lead the charge needs to have his expert status revoked.

    But beyond TF's demonstrable failures, I like eluminata's focus in her post on her neighbor. They are the sort of person whose efforts get lost in the rhetoric that people like TF generate, which is a real shame.


    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:01:58 PM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 07:55:56 AM EST
    address my substantive argument next time  instead of engaging in a personal critique of me.

    Parent
    So.... (1.00 / 0) (#30)
    by jarober on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 08:18:44 AM EST
    Along the lines of your argument then, if I can locate one lawyer in the US who has acted disgracefully, then that is enough to tar your name and reputation?


    Um no (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 09:07:56 AM EST
    this is one of you most nonsensical comments.

    Parent
    pummel the pundits! (none / 0) (#1)
    by Miss Devore on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:17:46 PM EST
    the MSB/bbb pundits are up next...have you been reading peeder's new site?

    peeder has a new site? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 10:18:53 PM EST
    Why?

    Parent
    you are incapable of resisting (none / 0) (#18)
    by Miss Devore on Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 11:49:33 PM EST
    references to yourself:

    http://tinyurl.com/2asb9q

    go for it. (if you already haven't)

    Parent

    Saw it now (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 01:18:41 PM EST
    Funny but it seems to me to have a limited shelf life.

    How interesting can it be to skewer folks who really do not matter that much?

    I figure the site becomes all about me in a matter of weeks (that's a joke Miss D.)

    Parent

    Can't say they don't remember you. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 01:24:00 PM EST
    I'm a moderator for Armando's panel ;) (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:15:13 PM EST
    Blogging with emotional stability or something like that.  Funny as hell site.  I love the sign in boxes.  Sometimes ya gotta laugh at self, particularly when nobody else is willing to.

    Parent
    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:35:41 PM EST
    But it certainly can't sustain a blog for an extended time can it?

    I guess we'll find out.

    Parent

    You have to be a connoisseur (none / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 12:44:27 AM EST
    of blogging personas of the leftish brand for the past two years to even know what is being alluded to on the site.  A very small population can even give a rippity rip.  It is better than getting emailed  a comment though from the guys that hang at BLACKFIVE that that Militarytracy is a real psycho.......guys who think Delta Forces and Special Forces are way cool said that I was a psycho - I don't even own a weapon outside of my mouth and I'M THE PSYCHO in that crowd?

    Parent
    I thought you just had to spend way too (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 01:11:01 AM EST
    much time on DK.  

    Parent
    I laughed at that too, but didn't (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:18:05 PM EST
    realize you had so much impact on the DK community!

    Parent
    I don't (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 12:33:47 AM EST
    I've just impacted or maybe collided is a better verb with certain people who like to play the computer version of the movie 'Heathers'.  

    Parent
    Seems to be nothing in the link (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 08:03:56 AM EST
    Is this your comment that I am nothing?

    Parent
    Batty (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 01:41:20 PM EST
    I always wondered why so many typos. It's the bats.

    Parent
    Is this Friedman's version (none / 0) (#20)
    by kovie on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:06:11 AM EST
    of the Repubs' favorite refrain these days when defending Bush & Co.:

    "But Clinton did it too!"

    "But Al Qaida did it too! And worse!"?

    Setting the bar this low is an excellent way to trip over it, Thomas.

    I'll give you six more months to figure that one out.

    And another six to figure THAT one out.

    Al Qaeda worse? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:39:32 AM EST
    Bah, there is nothing worse than when the US does something.  The loping of heads, it is just to be considered 100th trimester abortions.  How dare someone disagree with the US being worse.  

    Pretty funny (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 08:01:02 AM EST
    that people like you think you have to argue that Al Qaida is worse.

    That the argument even needs to be made shows what has happened to your morality.

    Parent

    And our country (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 09:21:01 AM EST
    It's funny that folks like you and me (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 09:31:23 AM EST
    thought of America as a great country incapable of not being shamed by the atrociites of torture,Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and Padilla's unconstitutional incarceration.

    We were sure we were so muich better than Al Qaida that it would be ludicrous to even have to say we are better than Al Qaida.

    Friedman, his defenders in this thread and Republican and conservatives believe it is an honorable defense of the US to say 'yeah we did bad things but al Qaida is worse.'

    What a sad commentary on the depths our great ountry has fallen to.

    Parent

    Moral equivalence anyone? (1.00 / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 12:30:29 PM EST
    Yes, both are shameful, but Abu Ghraib was a day at the beach compared to what Al Qaeda and its Sunni jihadist supporters have been doing in Iraq, yet none of their acts have become one-punch global insults like Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo.

    His point is very simple. We have investigated and punished. GITMO is under debate. Yet no Al Qaeda tribunal has tried a single terrorist killer. That's none. Like zero. Zip. Nada.

    Our culture calls for equal rights for gays and women. Al Qaeda calls for women to be virtually owned by men. Gays are condemned to death, etc., etc.

    That the people the Left want to be friends with don't understand this distinction is solid proof that we should ignore them.

    What you are doing is buying into the old "moral equivalence" argument where America is always as bad, if not worse, than our enemies.

    Not perfect? Yes. A 1000 times better than Al Qaeda? Yes, yes, yes.

    Parent

    Do you honestly believe (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 12:57:16 PM EST
    anyone believes Al Qaida is not EVIL?

    Again, you conservatives have the lowest opinion of America I can imagine.

    There is no need to say Al Qaida is evil and despicable.

    The problem is not the America is like Al Qaida. It is that it has not been different ebough type past 6 years.

    In essence, you and Friedman and Bush are the problem - the moral problem. You think that a comparison to Al Qaida is necessary and helpful.

    I and others believe that a comparison is even discussable is the problem and the disgrace.


    Parent

    The idea is to deflect moral (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:18:47 PM EST
    scrutiny and abnegate any moral responsibility. It's been the game from the start.

    Abu Ghraib is better than Saddan's prisons; Shock 'n Awe was nothing compared to the fire bombing of Dresden; security for Iraqi children (take heart pro-lifers) is better than it is for some U.S inner city kids; Bush's level of gross incompetence and dishonesty is nothing compared to James Buchanan's; "entertainer" Ann Coulter is not as much of a lying skank as....they'll get back to us.

    Of course pointing out all of the above means I love Al Queda and dont support the troops.

    Parent

    BTD (1.00 / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:46:23 PM EST
    What I believe is that we are better than our enemies.

    What I believe is that when someone tries to use Abu Ghraib to compare us to our enemies it is perfectly proper to look them in the eye and say:

    We are not perfect, but we investigated, tried, convicted and put people in jail for that.

    al Qaeda has not. Instead they glorify in torture and release videos of beheadings.

    And if you can't see the difference, excuse me while I sneer.

    BTW - For about the 10th time I am not a conservative. And if you wanted to prove I was you would get into the arhives and look for proof. You would find none.


    Parent

    Friedman used Abu Ghraib (5.00 / 0) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 06:11:57 PM EST
    I am criticizing him for using Al Qaida to minimize Abu Ghraib.

    you really do not get it.

    You think so little of the US that you think using Al Qaida to minimize abu Ghraib is acceptable.

    In a way, you really do hate America.

    Parent

    You just havnt criticzed (5.00 / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:45:09 PM EST
    one in five years. And, you never defended Delay.

    Parent
    That's yet another cheap shot (none / 0) (#63)
    by eluminata on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 02:47:26 PM EST
    if you're referring to my post.  There is no hint that I believe is an honorable defense to say 'yeah we did bad things but al Qaeda is worse.'  If you're only interested in coming out on top, regardless of how you may mischaracterize the views of others, then there's no point in any further discussion.  That's a pretty hideous remark.

    Parent
    I am glad to hear you say that (none / 0) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:00:59 PM EST
    I would expect you to condmen Friedman for saying just that then.

    Parent
    Post the (none / 0) (#81)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:27:35 PM EST
    same blog entry on DU and see what kind of reaction you get.  

    Parent
    That is a different point (none / 0) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 04:38:56 PM EST
    Ever wonder how many people (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 12:35:00 PM EST
    read Friedman in the print version of NYT as oppsed to via links in blogs?  

    Tom Friedman Is Not Smart (none / 0) (#65)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:04:20 PM EST
    This is news?

    To some in this thread? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:06:34 PM EST
    Apparently.

    Parent
    For all the good it will do (none / 0) (#69)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:14:38 PM EST
    What really comes through is how US-centric TF's view is. The problem with what he says (imo) isn't stupidity per se but cultural stupidity. Why should anyone in the "Arab world" see things the way TF thinks they should? It doesn't even seem to occur to him that they would have other considerations than his on American actions or the actions of al Qaeda. That's where his stupidity and arrogance lies to me. And it's the same problem with everything he has to say.

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 03:18:18 PM EST
    but also just plain stupid.

    Parent