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Rudy: Deal With Terrorism Like Organized Crime

Via a WSJ interview with Giuliani, h/t to Josh Marshall for pointing to the interview, Rudy says that:

I think that terrorism should be approached the way we approach organized crime and the way we approach crime.

Of course, that is contra the Republican talking point about what the US did wrong in dealing with terrorism before the great and powerful Bush Administration and what is part of Rudy's basic strategy of criticizing the Clinton Administration. In fact, not two minutes earlier in the SAME interview, Giuliani said:

The World Trade Center was attacked in 1993; we saw it as a criminal act and not an act of war. It was an act of war. That was a mistake.

Sounds like Rudy proposes we return to the 1980s, when he was filing RICO cases against the Five Families. We need some nicknames though - Osama "The Chin" bin Laden? Has a nice ring to it doesn't it?

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    Now that this one Brooklyn guy got whacked (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:11:11 PM EST
    Heh (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:20:36 PM EST
    But a little more seriously, (none / 0) (#30)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 04:32:00 PM EST
    Fitz just dealt with some real scary folks - Scooter, Rover, Conrad Black - like they were organized criminals.  Used the same methods, etc.

    What did it get him?  Opprobrium from the law 'n' order crowd?

    What Thuggy's trying to pitch here is some emotional resonance from his work putting up mobsters in the early 80s - before he figured out that perp-walking and putting away Wall Streeters was more politically remunerative.  Of course, one could make a couple arguments that Rudy Cue Ball's* "successes" against the Mob were built on:
    (1) the work of first-rate assistants (like Fitz, literally);
    (2) the unavoidable and inexorable fall of the House of Gotti, that being driven by John Sr.'s street-thug vanity and stupidity.  He was too flashy, and didn't respect the traditions or rules of being a mobster.  Like "no whacking a Boss (Castellano) without Commission OK, and not on a midtown Manhattan street at the dinner hour right before Christmas."  There's a reason the mob developed those "traditions", and it isn't because it'd be "cool" to have them.  It's from self-preservation.  The hit on Paul Castellano, arguably, made certain that Gotti would drag the NY mob down, because while there was no way the public would countenance mobsters gunning it out on East 46th at the corner of 3rd Avenue nine days before Christmas, Gotti and Gravano thought it would be a great idea:

    In Underboss, Sammy Gravano and Peter Maas describe the setup:
    'The more we thought about it, the better it looked,' Sammy said. 'We concluded that nine days before Christmas, around five to six o'clock at night, in the middle of Manhattan, in the middle of rush hour, in the middle of the crush of all them shoppers buying presents, there would be literally thousands of people on the street, hurrying this way and that. The hit would only take a few seconds, and the confusion would be in our favor. Nobody would be expecting anything like this, least of all Paul. And being able to disappear afterwards in the crowds would be in our favor. So we decide this is when and where it's going to happen.'

    This was fairly guaranteed to create a huge anti-Mob public outcry - mother's milk for ambitious prosecutors and newspapers wanting to sell copies.

    In other words, a large portion of the success in "breaking" the Mafia which Thuggy claims for himself, arguably belongs to the very mobsters he prosecuted and their own stupidity.

    -
    * I like "Thuggy" or "Thuggiani" better - one word, distinctive, has a rhythm ... accurate, too.

    Parent

    John Kerry was FLAYED (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:02:24 PM EST
    for saying pretty much the exact same thing. Matt Bai called it the "Kerry Doctrine."

    Matt Bai (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:05:15 PM EST
    is not particularly bright.

    But watch, NO ONE will talk about this. No one.

    Except me. Hell, the other LEft blogs won't either.

    See, I think it is a great opportunity to really knock the GOP around. Why? Because Rudy's their "terrorism" expert. Of course he know not a goshdarn thing about it, but he gives good press conference so he has been so anointed.

    And we can tar the GOP with this one.

    Parent

    The left blogs wont talk about it? (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:25:12 PM EST
    OOIBC, June 8, 2007
    A Radical Notion Worth Considering...
    The Strategic Studies Institute of the US Army War College has a radical idea on how we can deal with the Iraqi insurgency that is claiming ~30 American GI's per week.
    Rethinking Counterinsurgency

    At the strategic level, the risk to the United States is not that insurgents will "win" in the traditional sense, take over their country, and shift it from a partner to an enemy. It is that complex internal conflicts, especially ones involving insurgency, will generate other adverse effects: the destabilization of regions, resource flows, and markets; the blossoming of transnational crime; humanitarian disasters; transnational terrorism; and so forth. Given this, the U.S. goal should not automatically be the defeat of the insurgents by the regime (which may be impossible, particularly when the partner regime is only half-heartedly committed to it), but the rapid resolution of the conflict. In other words, a quick and sustainable outcome which integrates most of the insurgents into the national power structure is less damaging to U.S. national interests than a protracted conflict which leads to the complete destruction of the insurgents. Protracted conflict, not insurgent victory, is the threat. [p.50]
    ...
    In cases where a serious insurgency cannot be managed, the state and its supporters might consider an approach designed to deliberately encourage the insurgency to mutate into something less dangerous such as an organized criminal organization. This is never desirable, but there may be rare instances where organized crime is less of a threat than sustained insurgency. Call this strategic methadone.



    Parent
    Or that either (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:27:37 PM EST
    Why? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 05:02:57 PM EST
    I hope the author has a day job, or (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 05:32:41 PM EST
    something already lined up, because he will not be long for further government/military employment in the Deadeye/Unit regime.  The author states:

    Given this, the U.S. goal should not automatically be the defeat of the insurgents by the regime (which may be impossible, particularly when the partner regime is only half-heartedly committed to it), but the rapid resolution of the conflict. In other words, a quick and sustainable outcome which integrates most of the insurgents into the national power structure is less damaging to U.S. national interests than a protracted conflict which leads to the complete destruction of the insurgents.[*] Protracted conflict, not insurgent victory, is the threat. [my emphasis added]

    Under the Deadeye/Unit regime, protracted conflict is the objective.  This goes beyond the penny-ante war profiteering of Halliburton and the rest.  It's about taking the oil, silly.  We are seeing that the construction of permanent bases in Iraq, conveniently located close to the sources of and pipelines for oil, continues apace.  

    To put the activities of the Deadeye/Unit regime into a metaphor easily understood by all, answer this:

    Assume you want a TV, and the store has one in the display window, but you are not willing to pay the asking price.  You are inclined to take it without paying.  If you were going to try to steal the TV from the store, would you try to do this theft (a) on a peaceful afternoon with an average number of people walking the sidewalks in the neighborhood, or (b) in the middle of a riot?  (Those are your only choices)

    The answer is (b) - you want to get away with it and, in the land of the law-abiding, peaceful citizenry, you would almost certainly be apprehended before you could get away.  In the middle of a riot, it'd just be another breaking window.  Thieves and rogues know this instinctively - disorder, upheaval and riot facilitate theft and general lawlessness, so they encourage and exploit them.

    And, then, you'd make Objective No. 1 for the new puppet government:  "Pass an oil law ratifying our theft." Which is our Objective No. 1 in Iraq.  While they wrangle over that bone of the Oil Law (not that it's intended to do anything but cause them to wrangle), the insurgency grows and deepens, and the grudges are inflamed and the lust for revenge tomorrow fueled by atrocities today.

    -
    * Not that anyone other than a Sadaam will ever get the Sunnis, Shias and Kurds to get along.

    Parent

    scribe (1.00 / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:23:33 PM EST
    You quoted:

    Protracted conflict, not insurgent victory, is the threat.

    If insurgent victoty is not the threat, then why should we be involved at all?

    Parent

    Wow PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 09:04:43 PM EST
    If insurgent victoty is not the threat, then why should we be involved at all?

    I am glad to see that you have come around. Cut off funding and fund the withdrawl of troops ASAP,

    ANyone can make a mistake, Get out and move on.

    Parent

    Nicely done, scribe. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 11:41:05 PM EST
    Edger (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 06:09:33 PM EST
    That remains one of the dumbest screeds I have yet to read on a supposed strategy. Thanks for beating me to linking it.

    Consider. The assumpation is that the insurgency cannot be "managed." Now why a writer would use the word "managed" when writing about an insurgency, I really don't know. You don't managed an insurgency. You defeat it. Or, it defeats you.

    But let's ignore that and just look at the word:
    "serious." The premise is a serious insurgency that can't be managed. That would be an insurgency that is "winning."

    Now. Lay aside that fact, and ask. Okay. What do we do to mutate them from insurgents/terrorists into criminals?? Do we have a supply of pixie dust left over from Disney that we can sprinkle on them?? Do we hold their hands and repeat: "I want to go home.... I want to go home..."

    I know this sounds cranky, but what is it that we need to do?? The author doesn't tell us, and that is mostly because he doesn't know. So what he has done is make a feel good statement with no details....Kinda like, "If we just leave Iraq everything will be ok...Ahummmmmm Ahummmm."

    Remember that the insurgency is winning?? (That's real world talk for "serious...can't be managed.")
    Can someone tell me why an insurgent who is willing to die for his cause is ready to be converted over to a criminal??

    "Tell you what, Mohammed. You can have SW Baghad and your brother NW...No??? Don't you know all the money and drugs you can have????

    Oh... You want to run the country and then the world.....

    What??? You really meant all that jihad stuff?? Hey, don't get touchy... Watch our for that sword....I'm here to negotiate...."

    Swish. Spurt. Thud.

    Parent

    No one asked you. (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 06:20:52 PM EST
    And no one expects you to get it.

    Parent
    Edger - No one asked me? (1.00 / 1) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:03:36 PM EST
    Little testy are you? What's a matter? Did a Libby get your tongue?

    I have asked you before, and I will ask again.

    What could be done, should be done, to convert an insurgency that is winning to "criminals."

    You see, I have no issue with doing anything that would work. But I do have a problem with BS being spread as a strategy.

    So here's your chance. Spread your wings and show us what you.

    Parent

    No issue with doing anything that would work? (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:15:20 PM EST
    Such as recruiting White Supremacists, Aryan Nations Members, Neo-Nazis, Skinheads, and street gang members into the army and sending them to Iraq?

    Great way to "support the troops", ppj. Impressive...

    Parent

    edger - Nice strawman but (1.00 / 1) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 11:50:14 PM EST
    I always have issues with doing things that are illegal.

    Now. Quit squirming. If you have a solution to how to turn insurgents who are winning a war into "criminals," tell us.

    Otherwise just admit that you know absolutely nothing about anything involving the military and other parts of the real world.

    But you won't. You'll slide off on somegthing else feeling that you have accomoplished something.

    In the meantime those who protect you continue their service, underpaid and under appreciated.

    Parent

    Underpaid and under appreciated? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 11:22:57 AM EST
    Glad you finally understand how little regard you have for all the people who fight to get rid of the criminals in this administration.

    Now if you'll turn your laser like intellect and  attention to comprehending how the troops in Iraq must feel when you support sending nutbar White Supremacists, Aryan Nations Members, Neo-Nazis, Skinheads, and street gang members into their units.

    Tell us again how you "support the troops" ppj, instead of giggling while they die.

    Parent

    edger (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 06:26:54 PM EST
    As I noted, you haven't the vaguest idea on how to implement the strategy you profess to find so striking. What a fake you are!!

    Parent
    TPM doesn't count? n/t (none / 0) (#9)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:11:28 PM EST
    They dio not talk about this (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:20:14 PM EST
    They just linked to the interview and spoke about how not ready for prime time Rudy is on Iraq.

    Which is also true, but we need to hit on this "terrorism" BS.

    Parent

    Not sure I agree (none / 0) (#23)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:29:12 PM EST
    I read all the time that Republicans are clueless on how to fight terrorists.

    Are you saying that you want to tie the problem directly to Rudy?

    Parent

    You hear it where? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:44:04 PM EST
    The lagging poll indicator for Dems remains "fighting terror."

    Parent
    Well, we're talking about (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    "in the blogosphere," right? How about here, to begin with?
    Here on the left, we "get" terrorism.  And one of the things we get is that you don't get it at all.


    Parent
    that's that crazy impeachment (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    9/11 conspiracy site.

    Not serious.

    Parent

    Heh, I win! n/t (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 01:10:37 PM EST
    The other side of the coin... (none / 0) (#2)
    by Slado on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:04:33 PM EST
    is what Rudy means is special rules and government programs such as wiretapping laws (sound familiar?) and easdropping measures should be instituded and used to get to these guys in the planning and early stages.

    Come on BTD.  You know that he doesn't favor using the rules we use to catch common theives in the WOT.  

    I don't think Rudy knows what.... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:06:22 PM EST
    Rudy means.  His only thought before he opens his mouth is "will this get me votes?".  

    Parent
    He is stupid (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:08:13 PM EST
    crazy, ignorant, dishonest and dishonorable.

    A terrible person and a menace.

    Parent

    Is That All? (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:10:57 PM EST
    He is stupid crazy, ignorant, dishonest and dishonorable.
    A terrible person and a menace.

    And those are his good qualities....

    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:21:43 PM EST
    I'm the mean one at Talk Left, but J seems to me to have a decided dislike for Rude Cue Ball as well.

    As do some of our community members here.

    Parent

    I Was Being Serious (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:26:31 PM EST
    Since I Am a Confirmed Rude Cue Ball hater myself. I lived through his fascist reign in NYC. He is the worst.

    Parent
    Why don't you guys (1.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:05:01 PM EST
    tell us how you feel??

    Parent
    No need to tell me.... (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:24:21 PM EST
    about the menace to freedom the Ghoul is...me and many friends have had the night in jail, fines, and records to prove it.

    Parent
    Come on Slado (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:07:12 PM EST
    What is it that Rudy said?

    I quoted him. Deal with it.

    As for Rudy being for torture and breaking the law, I know.

    Rudy is a schizo. He truly is not well mentally.

    The "crazy" meme was stuck to McCain but Rudy is th real deal. He's nuts. And stupid. And incompetent. And dishonest.

    He is a menace.

    Parent

    Yes you quoted him (1.00 / 0) (#39)
    by Slado on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:38:08 PM EST
    And many quotes taken out of context from a pragraphs long interview can make anyone's point.

    Don't attack Rudy on the terrorism thing.

    Stick to his sordid personal life and his relatonship with kerick or anything but attacking him on terror is a dead end street.

    Parent

    Also... (1.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Slado on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:42:20 PM EST
    he says he supports keeping Guantanomo open, the Patriot act and doing whatever it takes to stop Iran from getting weapons.

    Not to mention tapping phones getting quick warrants etc...

    Come on BTD you know better.

    How many of the above does JK support?

    Parent

    Taken out of context? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:48:53 PM EST
    What nonsense. What in the context changes the meaning of what he said?

    Stop the BS.

    Parent

    I find it difficult to imagine (none / 0) (#10)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:13:45 PM EST
    that the GOP will nominate him.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:20:45 PM EST
    What about Bush? He got the nomination.

    Parent
    Comes down to abortion (none / 0) (#22)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:27:42 PM EST
    and the big city thing.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:30:15 PM EST
    But his nastyness and corruption may outweigh those negatives. I have stopped being surprised not only by the nominations but by the outcomes.

    Parent
    Treated as crime? (none / 0) (#11)
    by nellieh on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:13:58 PM EST
    Didn't the Democrats and/or Clinton get chastised because they wanted to treat terrorism as a police (criminal matter) investigation to pursue the perpetrators. Something the Republicans and Bush have completely failed to do? They are pursuing Bin Laden like OJ is pursuing the killer of his ex.

    Nice analogy.... (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:25:58 PM EST
    Once Osama shows up in an Iraqi oil field he is as good as caught....just like the real killer will be once he shows up on a Palm Beach golf course.

    Parent
    Im convinced that Bushco (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:30:25 PM EST
    is too deep in the Saudi's pockets to ever have been serious about going after Bin Laden or exploring too deeply the Saudi-support-fer-Terra connections.

    Parent
    That mindset has alot (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:25:06 PM EST
    of precedents. There's an inherent conflict between the ideal of "self interset" in the narrowest, trickle down, autoerotic, Republican sense and the ideal of doing whats right for "the nation" and "the American people"; which is why the Bushes and Gulianis are happy to keep asking for the ultimate sacrifice from the lower and middle class and none at all (in this time of "national peril") from those with tax shelters.

    The Right Frame (none / 0) (#33)
    by cmpnwtr on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 05:51:32 PM EST
    Actually this is the right frame for dealing with Al Qaeda and organized terrorism. It's a law enforcement problem, not a matter for declarations of war, as if Al Qaeda were a nation-state. I only wish our policy were this, instead of using imperial forces to launch invasions and occupations, conflating every group we have issues with as somehow a partner of Al Qaeda and an enemy according to the declaration of the "war on terrah".

    Wish they'd make up their minds (none / 0) (#44)
    by SeeEmDee on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:56:50 AM EST
    So, Rudy wants to run the Global War On Terror like the War on Drugs? Like a RICO attack on an organized crime operation? (Funny, I thought that was sort of what the late John O'Neill of the FBI tried to do, before this Administration began politically and diplomatically stonewalling him in his pursuit of Osama.) I thought the kind of folks he claims to represent wanted to run the WoD like a military campaign, and now they've changed their minds? Flip-flop, flip-flop, flippity-flop. Can't they get anything straight, anymore? Isn't one broken, deadly farce of a policy enough?