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Harry Potter and the Cultural Infantilism

Matt Yglesias points to this snotty review of the Harry Potter craze:

Along with changing diapers and supervising geometry homework, reading "Harry Potter" was one of those chores of parenthood that I was happy to do -- and then happy to stop. But all around me, I see adults reading J.K. Rowling's books to themselves: perfectly intelligent, mature people, poring over "Harry Potter" with nary a child in sight. . . . Rowling's U.K. publisher has even been releasing "adult editions." That has an alarmingly illicit sound to it, but don't worry. They're the same books dressed up with more sophisticated dust jackets -- Cap'n Crunch in a Gucci bag. I'd like to think that this is a romantic return to youth, but it looks like a bad case of cultural infantilism. And when we're not horning in on our kids' favorite books, most of us aren't reading anything at all. More than half the adults in this country won't pick up a novel this year . . .

My infantile response is to say 'write better novels.' But I think Matt's response is better:

[A Potter book review] might be a moment of opportunity for a literary critic. A chance for someone with the requisite chops to publish in the popular press an article that said something about the Potter books as literature, something smart and insightful that made me think "hey, this guy has smart things to say about books!" Something that would situate the books in some kind of context vis-a-vis the much larger cultural sweep of the novel. Something that might get an intelligen[t] person who enjoyed the Potter books interested in some larger, more highbrow segment of the literary enterprise. Instead, the publication of each Potter book seems to herald the publication of a bunch of stuff like Ron Charles whine in The Washington Post . . . . . . If someone expressed an interest in some niche product that I enjoy I would, I dunno, try to convey some of my enthusiasm about the subject. Try to share some wisdom. Try to build further enthusiasm. Make recommendations. Anything other than act bitter and petulant.
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    For those who missed the Open Thread comment (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    I deleted my CPAC post because I made a huge error on the sponsorship list thus undermining the entire point I was trying to make.

    I apologize to all who commented and to those companies who I errorneously smeared as sponsors of CPAC.

    Classy apology (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by magster on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 01:58:23 PM EST
    & Impeach Scrimegour!

    I'm personally (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:12:21 PM EST
    very thankful to J.K. Rowling. The Harry Potter books got my adamant non-reader of a child reading and I believe had a part in helping her become the amazingly articulate teen she is today. Maybe Ron Charles is a bit of a wingnut. Even before the books took an explicitly political (anti-surveillance, anti-simplistic-black-and-white, anti-authoritarian) turn they were expressive of a liberal view of the world and savagely sarcastic toward those who seek to ignorantly saddle us all with their narrow views on morality and The Way Things Really Are.

    Interesting, as recent "studies" (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:08:15 PM EST
    purportedly show kids who read Potter don't necessarily read anything else. As an aside, I gave my 8 yr.-old Latino boy tutoree, who is bi lingual (Spanish/English) and a very good reader, interested in most anything, a copy of the first Harry Potter in case he ran out of reading material during the summer vacation. He sd. it didn't interest him.

    Parent
    Oh those literary critics are such snobs (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:19:27 PM EST
    demanding something better from citizens.

    There are many more things to be concerned with in our culture, but adults reading Harry Potter and children's anxiety rising over the latest release ranks right behind the Counting Crows set for the Home Run Derby during the All Star break as evidence for the decreasing sophistication of our culture and the preeminence of the market as it dominates every segment of our society.

     

    When was "our culture" (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:05:14 PM EST
     more sophisticated? Back in the days when in addition to walking 10 miles to school,  uphill both ways, kids came home to find Dorothy Parker and George S. Kaufman in the family salon discussing the metaphorical imagery in Tennessee Williams latest drama?

      I'm not championing the sophistication of modern American society, but the we tend to romaticize the past,  and also  distort it because we view it with reference to those things that have endured and overlook the old lowbrow and middlebrow "art" that did not.

    Parent

    How about the days of Tomas Paine (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:08:41 PM EST
    when the pamphlet Common Sense was the best-seller. Most Americans couldn't even make their way even partially through this American Document as it is above even college reading levels. And, Americans in revolutionary times were uneducated.

    Parent
    Yeah but (none / 0) (#25)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:38:00 PM EST
    they all got caught up in the hype anyway, and look what happened.

    Parent
    It was hype that wasn't marketed (none / 0) (#27)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:59:56 PM EST
    It was content. He made an argument and started a discussion with common Americans and Americans decided to declare their independence from Great Briton.

    It was persuasive rhetoric, an art most Americans are not too familiar with. Rather we read what the advertisers tell us is gong to be the next hot item so we can stay with the crowd and remain -hip or informed.

    I don't care if Americans read Harry Potter or watch American Idol, God knows I have my guilty pleasures. But, if the only literature they read during the year, (or two years, 5, the past decade)then it demonstrates something lacking in our culture.

    Parent

    Well, I don't dispute much of what you say (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:15:26 PM EST
    however, I'm not sure
    1. that the books would not have been wildly popular absent marketing, and
    2. that with or w/o marketing they would have been popular absent content, and
    3. that popularity due, in some part anyway, to marketing is necessarily a bad thing.


    Parent
    I suppose that will be for (none / 0) (#39)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:23:17 PM EST
    some other future culture to judge. Whether it stands the test of time. I am not sure anyone thinks Stephen King is F. Scott Fitzgerald anymore and I really doubt whomever the author of Harry Potter will even be placed amongst classic Western Literature either. Just a hunch on my part, but I'd make a wager if it came along.

    Parent
    So that's your point?! (none / 0) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:29:12 PM EST
    That it's not a Classic of Western Lit like F Scott?!

    Cripes, why didn't you just say so in the first place, we'd all be agreeing with you...

    Parent

    I thought that's what started this thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:30:56 PM EST
    Isn't that what the point the literary critic was making?

    Parent
    Dunno. I was responding to what you wrote. (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:39:32 PM EST
    fwiw, gardening, growing stuff and respect for our environment (in not so many words) plays a pretty big part in the books...

    Parent
    How about comparing to John d. MacDonald? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Rick B on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 07:27:05 PM EST
    I have read the Harry Potter books, and throughly enjoy them. They are in my opinion better than John D. MacDonald or Agatha Christie. They are excellent as fantasy books.

    They don't have the sweep of the Tolkien Books, but kids who don't come from reading families don't generally read Tolkien. They often do read J.K Rowling. I could easily get kids who read the first to Harry Potter books to also try Andre Norton.

    I'd be willing to bet that comparing Robert Heinlein and J. K. Rowling there would be three markets, each rather sizable. Two would be exclusive to Heinlein and the third, a bit smaller than either of the others, would thoroughly enjoy both.  

    Then there is the attraction of the British setting. I am an Anglophile and find Harry Potter to be very comfortable. My Thai daughter-in-law does not make the same set of connections. [I don't know if it is from being Thai or that she is an Accountant. Either requires a sharp jump to become comfortable in the Potter world.]

    H. Potter consists of a truly outstanding, imaginative and consistent setting with interesting characters and an interesting plot/narrative, all hung together with what I would have to consider journeyman-level writing. Considering the children audience she started out after, the writing seems appropriate. But the real key is that the books are fun!

    Compare Rowling to Fitzgerald or Hemingway, and the comparison just won't work. But to say that just because a lot of us like Potter we are literary plebians is nothing but literary snobbery.  

    Parent

    Rick B (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:27:44 PM EST
    I haven't read Potter, and don't plan to. What I have skimmed just doesn't grab me, but that is meaningless. My motto is read it if you like it and everyone can pis* off.

    John D MacDonal is my favorite pulp writer, and still sells, even after being dead, what 20 years?? He had a grasp of the modern world years and years before the "serious" authors had a clue.

    I read Tolkien years ago and they are probably one of the four or five book(s) that I can definitely say the movie was better than.

    I've read most of what Heinlein wrote, and enjoyed it, but I think he started taking himself too seriously at the end. I have a great deal of his work in the magazine editions. (Yes I am an avid collector of scifi and fantasy.)

    In my mind important authors invent, or greatly impact the genre they are associated with. le Carre redfined the "spy" novel and expanded the suspense novel as a social commentary after the cold war was over.

    They also write novels that can be read time and again, and enjoyed time and again.

    Parent

    My then 6 year old son (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 11:06:22 PM EST
    read the 4th Potter book on his own during 1st grade Christmas vaca. That book is about 750 pages.

    He's read, on his own, all the published Potter books at least 4x each now, but then we're a family that emphasizes reading..

    They also write novels that can be read time and again, and enjoyed time and again.
    In that respect these books are the kid's equivalent of a le Carre novel.

    Which is to say they are not the kid's equivalent of an F Scott Fitz novel.

    Good night all, his latest infatuation is the Charlie Bone series and I think I'll try to knock one off before bed...

    Parent

    McDonald (none / 0) (#71)
    by Jen M on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 09:33:26 AM EST
    about the only fiction my dad reads. I have tried, I guess he's a guy's writer.

    But heck, any writer who puts out books that can be read ragged has something going on.

    Parent

    Reluctant to admit I read them all years ago. (none / 0) (#77)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 02:40:57 PM EST
    Decidedly not a feminist writer, but the books are quite entertaining. Robert Parker is similar but more PC.

    Parent
    oculus (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 03:10:28 PM EST
    Decidedly not a feminist writer

    I have no idea what a feminist writer is in your mind, but in the Travis McGee series, which is essentially MacDonald's claim to fame, the heroines were always strong self confident people who had received some undeserved "things." And in all his, shall we say, affairs of the heart the relationships focused more on the mental than on the physical...And remember these were mostly written in the 70's and early 80's.

    Of course he was always the White Knight, charging forth to salvage something of value stolen, for which he received 50% of the value... allowing him to live his life on society's edge.

    Parent

    Cardboard cut-out women. (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 03:36:42 PM EST
    This what I mean. (none / 0) (#29)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:01:03 PM EST
      Literacy rates in Puritan New England were high for white males,  but for women, blacks and men living elsewhere in the colonies the rates were far below today's. Moreover, Puritan education was motivated by religious impulses hardly considered "sophisticated" in this day and age.

       Calling something a "bestseller" in late colonial times is meaningless. Books were extremely expensive then and a luxury only the wealthy could afford. Comparing the numbers of copies produced of a short propaganda pamphlet cheaply printed and disseminated for political purposes to literature which was very costly makes little sense.

       It's also probably true that just as now political works are printed but not necessarily read. Just as today  the first editions of most political "memoirs" today are on the remainder shelves for a couple of bucks months after publication because they are produced in numbers far exceeding demand for political reasons (and even many of the purchased opies are undoubtedly never read), it's a fair bet many of the copies of Common Sense were not read in 1776.

    Parent

    Decon (none / 0) (#35)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:14:02 PM EST
    I beg to differ on almost all your points above. You might want to link to something supporting it, although your arguments are commonly held. However, according to this author, Literacy rates were comparable amongst all the groups you mentioned with the same groups today.

    It is always difficult to compare statistics across time periods, but Gatto makes some very compelling arguments that literacy rates were high and that Paine was widely read by common Americans - white, black, and women. Many other authors also have aruged that colonial America was filled with a sophisticated citizenry - Tocqueville, Veblen, Whitman, Emerson, etc.

    Of course, there were hardship. But I am talking about democracy and the sophistication of the citizenry that produced it.

    Parent

    Wiki has some interesting info (none / 0) (#38)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:22:41 PM EST
    on Common Sense.

    A couple thing stood out to me

    1. it was published during the war, not before it, and
    2. there were three different runs of the piece, and
    3. Paine published the first run on his own farthing and gave it away for free.


    Parent
    You forgot (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 06:46:04 PM EST
    that there was always a foot of snow on the ground...

    Parent
    Last fiction I read (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:20:17 PM EST
    was Stalin's Ghost this weekend.

    Martin Cruz Smith is one of my favorites.

    But to up my snob quotient - my favorite writers are John Irving and Feodor Dostoevsky.


    favorite writers (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:21:25 PM EST
    Well, we have something in common.

    Parent
    Hell froze over (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:23:10 PM EST
    Dostoevsky rocks (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:34:30 PM EST
    You're obviously either the protagonist in Notes from Underground or Ivan Karamazov ;-p.

    Parent
    Prince Myshkin . . . (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:40:43 PM EST
    At leas you aren't (none / 0) (#15)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:43:57 PM EST
    the Grand Inquisitor.

    Parent
    (that's Dick Cheney) (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:45:11 PM EST
    The Idiot (none / 0) (#19)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:59:10 PM EST
    My favorite of Dostoevsky's.

    Parent
    Might I add... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:17:55 PM EST
    I knew Prince Myshkin and you're no Prince Myshkin...

    Parent
    Prince Myshkin was (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 07:01:38 PM EST
    a friend of mine . . .

    Parent
    I read recently that Lloyd Bentsen rehearsed, (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:12:25 PM EST
    as opposed to improvised, that famous retort.

    Parent
    Please explain the "1." Thanks. (none / 0) (#69)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 02:03:33 AM EST
    I enjoyed Irving's Widow for One Year and (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:05:26 PM EST
    The Fourth Hand. Also Irving's apologia on behalf of Guenther Grass in recent NY Times Sunday book review section.

    Parent
    Oculus (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by HK on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:33:51 PM EST
    You missed out the word 'A' in the title of the Irving's book.  I'm not pointing this out to be pedantic, but because it made me laugh: the statement 'I enjoyed Irving's Widow for One Year' could be taken in entirely the wrong way by someone who had not heard of John Irving's novel ;0)

    Parent
    Picky, picky! (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:13:12 PM EST
    I've read most of 'em. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:33:28 PM EST
    And I quite liked them.

    A group of plucky Average Joes who are being picked on unfairly - in this case by the elite and powerful - persevere and ultimately win the day.

    How could you not be on Potters' gang's side from the get-go?

    Now, if only a group could develop that type of dynamic for itself, think of how much support it'd get in our culture...

    I haven't read any of them (none / 0) (#14)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:43:24 PM EST
    and don't plan to. Doesn't stop me from having an opinion on it though.

    My objection is not with the book I know nothing about, it is with the hype. Like cabbage patch kids, The Ipod, American Idol, whatever the latest marketing gimmick.  Its all about marketing and has nothing to do with the content, imo. Americans should be chastised, not for being dumb, illiterate or unsophisticated, but for being conformists, minions,  and unoriginal.

    Parent

    for sarc, (none / 0) (#17)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:46:00 PM EST
    Just for the record, the character of (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:56:17 PM EST
    H. Potter was raised by his parents until they died and then by his aunt and uncle (long backstory there).

    At about age 11, when the stories begin, he went off to boarding school during the school year.

    There's a lot more to it, but "'raised in a school' w/o parents," is not a particularly accurate description, although the rest of your diary was very interesting.

    Parent

    Yer linky no werky (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:51:15 PM EST
    I'm not at all an early-adopter techy-type guy, so I'm not even aware of what Ipod even offers me, and who cares about dolls, but no Idol??!! No Potter??!!

    A good story well told, a good song well sung. I dig 'em both.

    You're just so anti! ;-)

    Parent

    An interesting juxtaposition (none / 0) (#68)
    by SLH on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 01:26:14 AM EST
    In the last week or so, I've seen the most recent Potter movie(while eagerly anticipating the new book - I've enjoyed them all so far).  In the same time span, I've also discussed the formation and survival of representative democracy with my middle-schooler.

    We were on a four-hour drive to the other side of the state when the topic of Iraq came up and my daughter opined that the U.S. should not try to impose its form of government on another country if the other country doesn't want it.  That eventually led into a very interesting discussion about how hard it is to get a democracy up and running and keep it running, since it depends an informed and active population.  We pondered how the colonists ever got united enough to get a movement going to sever the ties with Britain.  It was quite a nice moment.  Good to see her brain hadn't turned to mush over the summer.

    This is the same kid who knows where all her favorite sitcoms are on cable and has read all the Potter books and with whom I have had a great time seeing all the Potter movies.  

    I think there is room enough in the human brain to enjoy a little fluff (Potter, American Idol) and still do the heavy lifting that our society needs us to do, including teaching our kids to be good informed citizens.  My Potter-phile, American Idol watching kid has also been helping punch my ballot on election day since she was about 2.  One time, she refused to punch the hole in the card because we disagreed on the issue. (She also voted on her favorite Idol contestants a few times).

    I have no clue what the revolutionists did for a good time, but I bet they had some diversions that were goofy or frivolous.  

    Parent

    Well said. (none / 0) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 12:01:49 PM EST
    Very well said.

    Parent
    No Shame in Potter (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by johncharrell on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:35:28 PM EST
    In my experience the only people who think it's odd for an adult reader of fiction to read Harry Potter are those who do not read many books. What's one novel per year? I knock out the new Potter book in a couple of days and then it's back to all the other stuff I read. In my condisdered, English-majorly opinion, Rowling has a fertile imaginiation, a stiff prose style, and a lamentable willingness to let her novels sag about the "dread middle." She can plot a plot, though, and each Potter book has been a worthy diversion.


    that's an interesting point (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by ksh on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:28:05 PM EST
    I read books and newspapers far less than I used to.  I've had computers since the 80s and have been "online" since the early 90s, but ramped it up in a serious way after 9/11 (my response? Ebay....sigh) and then at the beginning of the war which coincided with the birth of my twins (lots of sleepless nights to read blogs).  Now online news and blogs have completely replaced my two newspaper a day and my two-three books a month habits.  I relate it to my "hair on fire" reaction to four things: the first "election" of Bush, 9/11, the start of the Iraq War, and the miserable failure of the war once it started.

    My reading taste used to include Gide, Malraux, Durell, Hardy, Melville (try to make some sense out of that lineup) and any history I could get my hands on.  Nowadays, if someone posts a DKos diary yelling "impeach the mofos," I'm there.

    Oh god.  Bush has dumbed me down.

    Here's a fun way to increase your reading: (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:01:26 PM EST
    subscribe to dailylit.com. Its free if the book isn't in copyright. You receive a chapter a day by e mail. I'm reading a travelogue of Italy by Stephen Howell [editor of the Atlantic Monthly], written during and after the U.S. Civil War. Quite interesting. I blow up the print to 150%!

    Potter Is Free Too (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 05:14:49 PM EST
    For educational purposes only, that is. Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows

    Parent
    So, I suppose the fact ... (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Meteor Blades on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 06:15:42 PM EST
    ...I enjoy science fiction and serial killer novels - culturally infantile by definition - puts me on the snobs' hit list even though I have also been known to read J. L. Borges (English and Spanish), Didion, Orhan Pamuk and, yes, Dostoevsky? People should worry more about what people DON'T read, not what they DO read.

    Ah (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 06:56:47 PM EST
    Borges.

    His "version" of Don Quijote . . .

    Parent

    To anyone who called (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 07:23:56 PM EST
    science fiction culturally infantile I'd say this, just off the top of my head: Ursula Leguin, A.A. Attanasio, Philip K. Dick, Adam Roberts, Doris Lessing, Kurt Vonnegut, J.G. Ballard, Frank Herbert, William Gibson, William Burroughs, Franz Kafka, Mary Shelley, Margaret Atwood...

    Parent
    And then there is Doris Lessing's wonderful, but (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:14:59 PM EST
    often depressing, fiction.

    Parent
    Alien (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:37:54 PM EST
    to anyone who called science fiction culturally infantile I'd say this..."

    Indeed. Have you read "The Lovers" and "Moth and Rust," by Phillip Jose Farmer? Both published in the '52-54 time frame with themes no "serious" book would dare touch.

    Parent

    I'd add James Morrow (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by roy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:52:41 PM EST
    He tends to combine sci-fi and theology in cooky ways.  Far better than it sounds.  I almost couldn't finish one of his books because he had such believable characters going through such extreme suffering.  Good stuff.

    Parent
    Juvenile literature (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by jnann on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 09:11:13 PM EST
    The reviewer is wrong, but not because Harry Potter deserves a sterling reputation.  It's because they trashed the literature because it is meant for Young Adults and, gasp, Adults were seen reading it.  A serious review of a Harry Potter book, could serve as an opportunity to let people know about good juvenile literature that Adults could be proud to read (Philip Pullman springs to mind).

    What is juvenile literature, anyway, except literature with slightly simpler vocabularies and sentence structures.  The problem is not with reading "children's books" or whether "Harry Potter" is "good literature" (I think not, but isn't that debate the joy of literature).  No, more important is the failure of the reviewer to take the audience seriously.  Ranting on and on as if adults shouldn't read "kids books" is snotty.  Criticizing a book and recommending another in the similar genre is book criticism. (obviously I'm a librarian)


    C'mon (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Claw on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 09:02:00 AM EST
    Peaches.  There's nothing inherently damaging about reading a Harry Potter book.  If you would like to make the point that Americans should read more Thucydides I'm sure no one will disagree with you.  Frankly, what's wrong with a book that gives people--young or old--pleasure?  Would you rather they read nothing at all?  You realize of course that if the choice was wading through Finnegan's Wake or reading nothing, the vast majority of Americans would choose the latter...hell, the vast majority of Doctors of Philosophy would probably choose the latter.

    Claw (none / 0) (#74)
    by Peaches on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 09:58:36 AM EST
    I really am not concerned with what Doctors of philosophy would read. I also am not concerned that the average citizen reads Harry Potter. I am concerned that the average citizen cannot converse with Doctors of Philosophy because they do not share the same language and this creates a disconnect in society that is impassable.

    Parent
    So they're good books (4.00 / 1) (#3)
    by roy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:11:43 PM EST
    Charles sees "perfectly intelligent, mature people" reading a book he doesn't approve of and concludes there's something wrong with the people.  Wouldn't it make more sense that there's something right with the book?

    Potter books aren't great literature, but they're something more than childrens' books.  Kids can read them as a bunch of nifty stuff that happens; adults can read them as rather complex stories with deep and developing characters, clever plots, great humor, thought-provoking themes, and a couple extra layers of meaning.

    perfectly intelligent people (none / 0) (#31)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:04:14 PM EST
    buy a lot of McDonald's hamburgers, too.

    Drink Budweiser, listen to Michael Jackson's music...

    We could say that this means this is good food, beer, and music and I suppose that makes sense.

    Parent

    Wow. Finally met someone who is more of a (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:11:03 PM EST
    cultural snob than I am. Did you recognize any of the music in Hi Fidelity?

    Parent
    I just remember it as a great movie (none / 0) (#37)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:18:09 PM EST
    at the time I saw it. I need to pick it up again, I am forgetting the details. I remember identifying with the main character in a disturbing sort of way.

    Parent
    That makes two of us. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 05:41:15 PM EST
    My new personal litmus test is as long as I dont identify with Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet, Im alright.

    Parent
    Want a better book> HeadButler.com (none / 0) (#9)
    by lilybart on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 02:30:10 PM EST
    My husband has a site called HeadButler.com where he recommends one good thing a day---book, film or music and the occasional product.

    He takes mostly from the backlist, those writers muscians and filmmakers who have stood the test of time, are lesser known or just forgotton. Some things from the NEW.

    Im reading two (none / 0) (#23)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 03:20:15 PM EST
    That were "hot" ten years ago, for the first time and enjoying both immensely: Son of the Morning Star by Evan Connell and Ridley Walker by Russell Hoban. Highly recommend both.

    My favorite (fiction) author is Henry Miller (when he's "on"), and, as Ali said: "Aint no one gonna change my mind."

    The whole household adores Potter (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:00:30 PM EST
    We are a little boring keeping our Cultural Infantilism diaper free.

    I think most of what of the above (none / 0) (#44)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:38:30 PM EST
    supports the sophistication of Americans during colonial times. What should also be noted is the quality of writing that was being read. Common Sense, as I said, is difficult reading for today's college freshmen and this is not just because of language differences. Likewise, letters from published common soldiers during the civil war reveals a very sophisticated citizenry with writing skills above average Americans today as may be judged by the quality of what is often written on the internet.

    or, judging by the quality of what (none / 0) (#46)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:41:23 PM EST
    is written by yours truly - grammar, spelling, typing errors and all - on the internet

    Parent
    If you want to limit the argument (none / 0) (#47)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:54:51 PM EST
     to stating that "elites" in the 18th century were more "sophisticated" in terms of classical education (not necessarily formal schooling) than "elites" today,  I'll agree with you, but it is a romantic myth that the "average" American in 1776 read and discussed great books.

      You are falling into the trap I identified above-- judging the past based on what has endured. I'm sure some soldiers in Iraq write very eloquent letters and it 240 years from now someone assumes those eloquent letters typify the writing ability of the American masses today  they will be similarly misled because no one is likely to collect and publish "miss you baby, damn can't wait to get home."

     

    Parent

    No (1.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 04:58:54 PM EST
    I won't limit the argument to that, because I don't believe American soldiers today can write letters using elegant prose and I do believe that average Americans discussed the books they read, whether that was Emerson, Plato or the bible. Call it romantic if you prefer, and you may be right, but I actually think you are the one holding on to a romantic and commonly held belief about today's culture.

    Parent
    I'm far from a romantic (none / 0) (#49)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 05:07:29 PM EST
     about the past or present (and struggling to maintain a cautious optimism about the future). I'm just pointing out that the "grass was  greener" beliefs have little basis. Most people back then worked at hard, physical labor from sunrise to sunset just to survive and had little time for intellectual pursuits, no money and extremely limited access to the written word. We get a distorted view because the people we read about were the atypical elites who were very small in number.

      10 generations from now if historians suggest that the typical early 21st Century American was a world traveler by showing the number of international flights available and the evidence that some Americans had been to many foreign locales they will be similarly wrong.

    Parent

    Decon (none / 0) (#72)
    by Peaches on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 09:40:25 AM EST
    A few things (this is a little long, but bear with me),

    First of all, I think you are one of the smartest commenters on TL, and I think our differences on this subject are subtle and a matter of degree. I think we both would agree that the market can sometimes undermine democratic virtues and also that the power of elites has to be checked for democracy to function effectively. I have often railed against the power of elites in our modern society and the negative influence elites have on our democracy. However, I am not under any illusions that democracy can be saved through the elimination of elites by socialist measures striving to make us all equal in terms of wealth. I believe elites and wealthy individuals are a benefit to society, provided they take responsibility towards the preservation of society through democratic initiatives. I believe for a democracy to function effectively, there must be meeting places where elites and wealthy individuals can converse with other citizens on equal levels. For this to take place, standards of conduct have to be equally enforced among all segments of society regardless of wealth or class. I think, or at least I hope, we are in general agreement with the above.

    Secondly, although our differences on this subject are subtle, I think we both think they are important enough to make arguments and attempt to settle our disagreement. Where I believe our differences reside is in the evolution of the elites in our democracy. I believe that the power of the elites has increased since colonial times and our democracy has subsided since the colonial times, despite the gains in important areas such as civil rights and slavery. I think one symptom of this is that individuals and the average citizen were more literate and original and engaged in conversation and discussions with their fellow citizens more in colonial times than today.

    Thirdly, I am fully aware I am approaching, or even fully immersed in, the area of romantic myth in these beliefs. Since I cannot know what citizens discussed in colonial times at the local taverns and cafes and because I am not willing, nor do I have the time, to comb through civil war letters and compare them to letters written by today's soldiers from the Iraqi field of battle, I have to make assumptions, that cannot be verified and must rely on my common sense instead. Finally, I am not really concerned with accuracy in promoting this myth, because I think this myth is a beneficial one to hold for the continual and ongoing struggle to achieve democratic objectives.

    From my experience it is obvious the role that electronic media has had on the  print media as evidenced by being a lifelong reader of newspapers. Newspapers are written at a much lower reading level than they were in my youth and have even changed significantly in the last 5 or 10 years in response to the rise of internet news sources and bogs. The writing has become more bland and contains less and less literary allusions and poetic metaphors. The workplace discussions today over Harry Potter, American Idol and the Super Bowl attest to the character of our culture. I have little doubt that individuals engaged in discussions at drugstores, taverns, cafes, sidewalks and during work in colonial times. It only makes sense to me that the topic of discussion in those times, in addition to local gossip, contained conversations on what people read.

    Part of the responsibilities of the elites in colonial times was to also take part in these discussions. Because wealthy land owners lived near and amongst the general population they visited the same meeting places as other citizens. Since they had some capital I am sure they also supported ventures that included the printing of newspapers, books and pamphlets. Although some of the initiative for these ventures surely had to do with markets and profits, I believe they also took their responsibility as leading citizens in this new democratic experiment seriously and they made demands upon their fellow citizens which included printing prose and literature that was fluent and challenging to read and discuss. They were not strictly motivated by profits and what they could sell to the masses and the made readily available to the masses literature that they and other elites were reading, so they could have discussions with their fellow citizens over issues important to everyone where wealth had less to do with who would win an argument and make a decision than the command of the English language and ability to make rhetorical arguments.

    The influence of the markets and profit motives has corrupted this meeting place amongst classes that we had in past times and democracy is weaker because of it as elites become further insulated from the rest of the population. One of the problems I see in simply saying that if people want to read Harry Potter and it sells well, than who are we to be snobbish and judge the masses for their tastes, is that it contributes to this escalating isolation of the masses from the elites by letting the market dictate what the reading and thought level of average citizens rather than having expectations for aspiring to hire and more sophisticated reading levels that would be more beneficial to the functioning of our democracy.


    Parent

    Currently, I'm reading Ian McEwan's (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 08:17:18 PM EST
    latest novel: Chesil Beach. About 200 pages. Starts out with the wedding night of a British couple born in 1939 and married in 1962. Good read.

    wow (none / 0) (#73)
    by Jen M on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 09:50:50 AM EST
    people have favorite authors?

    How does one pick among the crowd. A voracious reader from the age of 6 or 7, I can't REMEMBER most of my favorite authors. I have current authors I favor over others.  

    As for CULTURE? If I want culture I go to a museum. If I want preaching I go to church. I'll take my entertainment (for that is what it is) Straight up with no agendas please.

    Culture is what culture does, to steal from Gump. People are culture. The everyday is always less sophisticated that the 'sunday go to church' literature whether in print or film. Or does the term "penny dreadful" mean "superb literary quality?"

    As for children's literature, where J.K. Rowlings first book was arbitrarily categorized, the variety and quality is quite good. My mother and I both read YA books for sheer pleasure.

    Read what you want, ignore what others read. Ignore Washington post reviewers, they rarely like anything.

    Here Here (none / 0) (#76)
    by Slado on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 01:43:26 PM EST
    My favorite authors run in order of my life as Stephen King, Larry McMurtry, Carl Haisson, Dan Brown, Harry Turtledove, many others  and non-fiction.

    An avid reader goes through phases IMHO.  Once I read a good book by a certain author I want to read more.

    I come from a family of avid readers.  My dad read Treasure Island to me for a whole summer when I was 8 years old and then I told him I could read for myself.

    I get the sense that other peoples kids don't read enough today but I remember most of my freinds didn't either so what the hell do I know?  

    Of course it's snobish to think Harry Potter doesn't measure up to Yates or Mark Twain but don't be so PC to not think for a minute that it really doesn't.  Of course it doesn't.   But if it's a starter for a kid to read those books then who does it hurt?

    Parent

    Points For Potter (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 06:01:43 PM EST
    I had been neutral and basically uninterested in Harry Potter until I saw this:

    Dave Neiwert writes that his

    enjoyment of the books is enhanced by the knowledge that it also drives the fundamentalist right nuts.

    They want the books banned and advocate Harry Potter's death.

    Maybe I'll pick up a copy....